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The U.S Election - What You Are Voting For?

  1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
    Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago

    So it's the final day. Let's be clear about the choice;

    Hillary Clinton is deeply unpopular. She may not be a nice person. There are so many negative reports about her, it is difficult to believe there is 'no smoke without fire.' However, some allegations are disproven, and most others are unproven - almost the only definite negative is that she's been very 'careless' with her e-mails. Beyond that, whatever you think about her politics, she is experienced, and a force for stability in America.

    Then there is Donald Trump. Again there are unproven allegations - the recent spate of rape and sexual abuse allegations for instance. I'll discount those at the moment, as they are unproven - just like the allegations against HRC. But what IS proven? He has lied on numerous occasions on all kinds of issues. far far more than Mrs Clinton (proven by audio and video evidence), and he has grossly exaggerated on other issues. He has made widely sweeping 'policy' statements without any substance behind them, and frequently had to retract or amend them afterwards. He's shown a tempermental unsoundness for the job of being a calm, rational president with his over the top reactions - petulant or bullying - towards protesters or towards tweets on Twitter. He has shown an ignorance of foreign affairs and a seemingly casual regard for the nuclear deterrent asking on more than one occasion 'if we have them, why can't we use them?' He's alienated your NATO allies with his apparent disdain for the alliance. And he is sceptical about climate change.

    He lumped together all Mexican immigrants as rapists, effectively accused a judge of bias because he was of Mexican descent, made grossly misogynistic or xenophobic comments, and has openly mocked a disabled reporter's body movements. He advocated Russia hacking into Mrs Clinton's e-mails, and yet he's had his own e-mail scandal in the past. His wife plagiarised Michelle Obama, and Republicans unwittingly cheered Mrs Obama's words! He's said he would bring back waterboarding (a recognised form of torture) and 'a hell of a lot more'. As far as his one strong suit - his business acumen - is concerned, he has refused to release his tax returns, and he has apparently filed for bankruptcy six times.

    He ridiculed John McCain for being captured by the Vietnamese, he attacked Carly Fiorina and Ted Cruz's wives for their looks, and made sexually clear insinuations about Megyn Kelly. He also implied that Ted Cruz's father may have been involved in the JFK assasination. He's described Mr Obama as the 'founder of ISIS' and Hillary Clinton as 'cofounder', and he's said ISIS is 'honouring President Obama'. He's described Mrs Clinton as 'the Devil', 'a monster' and 'the most corrupt candidate ever.' He's also implied she's unbalanced, seriously ill, and perhaps on drugs. He's said Mrs Clinton wants to abolish the 2nd Amendment (not true) and he's said that Second Amendment Advocates might 'do something about that'.

    Most seriously of all he has claimed the media and moderators of debates, and also the FBI, are biased, and that polls are rigged (though he is enthusiastic about polls which support him). He's also described the debates themselves, the Republican led Benghazi Inquiry, and independent fact checkers, as rigged. And he's said he may not accept the result of the election. All of that creates a very very very dangerous climate, in the event of a Clinton victory.

    Unsurprisingly in the light of all this, many of the most senior and influential of Republicans including former presidents have refused to back him. As for those of us looking on in bewilderment from afar - Donald Trump has said that America has become a laughing stock. In truth the only way in which people in democracies around the world regard America as a laughing stock, is in the fact that Mr Trump has become a serious contender.

    Below is a link to a video and text with links which expresses these and many many more problems with Donald Trump more effectively than I can. '176 Reasons Donald Trump Shouldn't Be President.'

    Anyone who reads this may have already voted. I hope you voted the right way.

    http://www.gq.com/story/176-reasons-don … -olbermann

    1. Ken Burgess profile image81
      Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      Thank God this election is over... and all the bias (and boy is this a bias write up if there was one) questions and articles can be over... for three years or so anyways.

      As for your question... Trump.  Not because I love the guy but because he is the ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT least bought and paid for Candidate running.... while Clinton is the poster child of bought and paid for Wall St. lackey.

      Obamacare... benefits the Insurance companies... benefits those politicians waiting for it to fail so they can force down our throats the socialist/national health care, that DOESN'T work for a small country like Canada... for the world's 3rd largest (population wise) country it will be a DISASTER for our floundering no-growth economy.

      Clinton has been rattling her saber at Putin and the Russians, she is bought and paid for by Saudi Arabia, who in turn wants us to be their hired thugs and go fight in the Sunni - Shiite proxy wars for them... she will sell out our men and women to go fight in the Middle East, and beyond, since Russia is determined to defend its interests in Syria... where we never belonged going *thanks Secretary of State Clinton for helping stir that pot!

      No... I am a sane voter with a fair understanding of what is going on in the world and how economics (TPP) work.  So no, I'd never support Hillary...because of the issues that matter to my wallet, and my children's futures.

      1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
        Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

        Thank you Ken. You can say that my post is biased, but is there anything inaccurate in what I said? I believe everything I said about Donald Trump can be proven with audio and video recordings. I pointedly said that some of the most serious allegations against him, such as rape, should be discounted in this contest as unproven. But you must apply the same rigorous standards for Hillary Clinton.

        As for the rest of your reply, I can only more or less repeat what I said to 'Live to Learn'. The anti-establishment argument effectively means that you would rule out any candidate with experience, and settle for giving arguably the most important job in the world to someone totally lacking in experience or knowledge of world affairs and diplomacy. Yes you may have valid economic arguments against Hillary Clinton - I just feel that the character of Donald Trump - uniquely in recent history - makes his suitability for the presidency more important than left-right arguments on this occasion. Many senior Republicans seem to agree.

        Anyway, we'll see what happens if Trump wins. If Clinton wins, I hope the democratic vote will be respected.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image81
          Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          Are you serious?
          Most important job in the world to someone with no political experience...
          VS.
          Someone who is bought and paid for by people who care nothing about America or Americans, only their own self interests and rewards.

          That's like giving me the choice of:

          Doctor A - just out of Med school, brilliant kid, has a foul mouth, thinks too much of himself, but he has some really great qualities.

          VS
          Doctor B - been practicing for over 30 years, has arthritis in her hands now, occasionally that costs a patient his life, has occasionally removed the wrong organ, you have about a 50/50 shot surviving her operating on you.

          But hey, you don't know what that kid can do at all... better a 50/50 shot right?

          No... no thanks.   I'll take the guy I don't KNOW for sure will sell us all out over the one for certain who will.

          1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
            Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

            False analogies are just that Ken - false. And your analogy is certainly false, unless you really think Donald Trump is 'brilliant' with 'really great qualities'.

            And regarding your first question, yes I am serious. It comes down to the question of whether one believes all the unproven Clinton allegations - and then weighs that against all the proven Trump allegations, plus his self-expressed social views, plus his inexperience, plus his self-evidently suspect temperament, plus the weight of opinion of experienced politicians and political observers including many conservatives.

            1. Live to Learn profile image82
              Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              Unproven? Seriously? Most are proven. The only question I see is how she can be found to have done so much without ever having to pay the piper. Although the answer to that goes back to corruption in Washington.

            2. Ken Burgess profile image81
              Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              There is nothing 'unproven' about the hundreds of millions the Clintons have taken from foreign interests, Wall St., etc.
              You don't spend hundreds of millions on living it up, weddings, mansions, and also be worth a hundred million or more (the two of them and Chelsea) but have no business... no inheritance... just the Clinton Foundation and 'non-profit' charities.
              You can play dumb, you can ignore all her corrupt and criminal activity... but there is so much information of it out there, not just WikiLeaks, 60 minutes, 20/20... they have been at it for 30 years, and only those that want to be willingly blind to that information deny it exists.

            3. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              "...plus the weight of opinion of experienced politicians..."

              Good point.  If the weight of opinion of "experienced" politicians (read career politicians that have spent a lifetime accumulating political power and don't want to give it up) is behind Clinton (and it is) then my vote needs to go the other way.  For it is those same power brokers that are causing such destruction to my country.

              1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                But that leads us to a dead end, Wildreness, as far as debate is concerned. You say effectively that you wouldn't listen to experienced politicians - even those Republicans who have come out against Trump. Presumably also the financial institutions (Wall St and all that). Given that many Trump supporters are also calling media bias (both TV and the press), conspiracies, bias by all institutions including the FBI, basically it seems that many will not accept any information or any idea unless it comes from a right wing, pro-Trump source. Equally nothing will be believed about Hillary Clinton unless it is negative.

                In the face of that, proof and evidence cease to have any meaning, and there is no value to debate.

                1. Ken Burgess profile image81
                  Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  You got it, you really do... you just laid it all out.
                  So yes, we do NOT support the corrupt establishment, that includes the politicians that say they are going to stop Obamacare but do not... that stay silent when the Obama Administration sells the most incredible lies to the American public (IE - Benghazi and the Riots throughout the Middle East were caused by a YouTube video)  or that the TPP (the gold standard) is actually good for American workers and our country...
                  The Media hides the corruption and protects Clinton rather than expose everything that is out in the open... we have WikiLeaks and Foreign News media exposing the collusion and criminal activity our own media... nearly all of it... bury.
                  Our government tells us we have only 4% unemployment when we have 100 million capable Americans out of work.
                  They say they are creating jobs when they are not, they are doing away with full time jobs with benefits and replacing them with part-time jobs with no benefits... wages go down not up... healthcare costs go up not down.
                  WE ARE NOT BLIND.
                  Many Americans may not have near the experiences or education or interest that I (and many on here) have... but they KNOW... they KNOW they lost their job to an H1-B immigrant that they were forced to train before they lost the job they were counting on to care for their family.... they KNOW that Toll Bros have hired thousands of illegal aliens to build the new neighborhoods going up in NC, SC, CO, etc... rather than pay out of work construction workers twenty something dollars an hour and have to worry about Workman's comp.
                  Americans KNOW that Washington is AGAINST the people... they promise to fix things, only to make things worse... they play the game of pointing their finger at each other Rep vs Dem... while BOTH sides take money from Wall St., Lobbyists, enrich themselves, while selling us down the river.
                  So yes... we want to do away with the crud that is ruining our country... and that IS the politicians you think are so important, so critical... they are not... they are a CANCER to our Country, to all Americans... the Swamp needs to be drained... When hundreds of millions of Americans have no hope, no jobs, no future, change really is coming... not some cheap campaign promise version... now in the form of Trump, or something likely more volatile and dangerous in the not too distant future.

                  1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                    Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    But Ken all you've done is repeat the beliefs of some in America. Honestly I know those beliefs exist. I understand you think they are also 'facts'. But others think differently. That's why they are only beliefs - NOT facts. It's futile to discuss that in the circumstances, when all contrary arguments are dismissed out of hand.

                    All I can say is that millions of Americans think differently, both about Washington (though NOBODY in the democratic world loves politicians), and also about America itself. In 2015 a Gallup poll randomly sampling 13,000 Americans in all 50 states, recorded a new 7-year high in the Standard of Living Index. 81% of Americans expressed satisfaction with their standard of living. Only 23% felt it was getting worse. Now I know you will say that statistics can be made to prove anything, and also that there's more to life than standard of living - but the point is 'Americans' is a very broad, all-embracing term. Many feel like you. Many others are not so cynical.

                    The last part of what you say is what depresses me. 'Draining the swamp' is Trump's phrase. Hearing that chanted at his rallies by a baying crowd, together with 'lock her up!', takes one back to lynch mob days. Donald Trump has stirred up intense hatred by pandering to the basest instincts in society.

                2. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  I mostly definitely did NOT say I would not list to career politicians.  I made it clear that I DO listen...along with digging through the spin and lies to reveal the underlying truth (if any).  Along with looking for reasons for what they say - sadly it is most often because it pads their pockets or increases their power.

                  But yes, it might shut down the debate.  Of course, I find that this years "debates" is almost entirely about throwing dirt without every bothering to see if it is true.  It's about spinning for all we're worth, it's about ignoring the faults of our own choice while spreading more lies and insinuations about their opponent.  As far as I'm concerned that isn't "debating" - it's about trying to swing someone else's vote without ever giving actual, real reasons to do so.

                  But I do agree - the only thing worthy of debate between these two losers is whether we like having masters or are willing to try something else.  Whether we're willing to try something new to recover our country from the rich and powerful or will once more sit back and allow it to continue and grow.  As far as I'm concerned the only thing we can expect to lose is the respect of foreigners...who are making the same mistake as Trump haters in deciding that they already know what will happen with an unknown quantity in the White House.

                  1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                    Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    Sorry if you feel I misrepresented your view wilderness. but you said :

                    'If the weight of opinion of "experienced" politicians ... is behind Clinton, then my vote needs to go the other way.'

                    That seemed to imply to me that whatever career politicians said, you would do the opposite. That effectively seemed to imply not listening, or leastways not willing to be persuaded.

                    Obviously when you describe the choices, I'd put a very different slant on it. 'Whether we like having masters or are willing to try something else' becomes 'whether we like having experienced, reliable leaders or are willing to try something unpredictable and divisive.'  But I can agree with much of the rest. It's been very negative, less about policy, more about character, lies and dirt slinging. It's sad, and I hope you never have another campaign like it.

                    TV coverage is now beginning over here. I may stay up all night if it looks like a Clinton victory. If it looks like a Trump victory, I might go to bed - I'd rather have nightmares whilst sleeping, than stay awake and watch nightmares on the TV! big_smile

                  2. Ken Burgess profile image81
                    Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    I don't think America would be losing any "respect" of foreigners... that is a media peddled lie... you are talking some European countries maybe... where as Iran, Russia, already have no respect for Clinton... China feels they own her, as does Saudi Arabia. 

                    So if anything, it would be better for Foreign Affairs if it was him.

  2. Live to Learn profile image82
    Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago

    Voted the right way? You are a foreigner. Why are you attempting to influence our election? What do you actually know about this country?

    I voted for Trump. It was a vote to attempt to start a chain of breaking the corruption in Washington. It is not a vote for Trump as much as a vote against the corruption and cronyism which has poisoned our political process. It was a vote to let Washington know that 'We the people' is not just some little phrase with no meaning. It was an attempt to send a signal to Washington that they have not done their jobs and anything was better than watching them for another election cycle turn their backs on their duty to represent the American people.

    Trump is an ass. For sure. But, he didn't preside over a department within our government that 'lost' 6 billion dollars. He didn't sell our government favors to the highest bidder. He hasn't used a political position for personal gain. He didn't wantonly disregard protocol and put himself into a position where government secrets were so easily accessible. I'll take an ass over a blatant crook who thinks we owe her something any day of the week.

    1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
      Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      Sadly, Live to Learn, America is a superpower. As such its policies - and the rationality - of its president, affects the whole world. (When America gets involved in a war for example, Britain usually gets involved too). When one adds in crucially important global issues such as climate change, I hope you can see why everyone has a vested interest in American politics.

      You ask what I know about America. I know my limitations in that regard, and I try not to comment on most aspects of purely internal politics such as the economy. I'd freely admit to not knowing enough about that, and to vote against Clinton on the basis of economics may certainly be legitimate in most scenarios. I also fully understand the mistrust of the 'establishment' in Washington. Nonetheless, an attempt to change these things by electing someone as inexperienced, and seemingly as dangerously unpredictable, as Donald Trump, may be much too high a price to pay.

      These are worrying times.

      1. Live to Learn profile image82
        Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

        I agree that we are a global community and our actions affect those outside of our borders. However I don't believe a foreigner (especially a Brit) can fully understand our fierce independence and our adamant desire to maintain full personal freedoms.

        Trump, oddly, is probably the best bet to not move us closer to a more widespread war. Plus, we are sick of the corruption in Washington. This election cycle has shown what a stranglehold the power of Washington has. Our news media has been proven, time and again, to be in collusion with Washington power. We, the people, are not represented, our welfare is not considered in policy decisions and our values are not represented in our government's actions abroad.

        Doing nothing or worse, voting to maintain the status quo, would make us complicit in their behavior.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image81
          Ken Burgessposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          Excellent post

        2. Credence2 profile image85
          Credence2posted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          I think that it is incorrect to assume that just because an observer is BRITISH that he can not appreciate what is at stake. I am AMERICAN and I certainly do. We all make comments about affairs in other nations without being accused of meddling in their politics. Greensleeves is well aware that the decision in this election belongs to the AMERICAN people just as I respect the rights of the ENGLISH people to make the ultimate decision in regards to their remaining in their European economic union.

          So he has as much right to his observations as you to yours and me to mine..... I would like to hear more regarding the opinions of those outside the U.S., I have no fear of that discourse, who does?

    2. jonnycomelately profile image85
      jonnycomelatelyposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      All this shows that who ever you Americans vote as President, it's going to be a disaster for our world. 
      You might well pray, "God Help Us!"

      1. Live to Learn profile image82
        Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

        Oh for goodness sake. The rest of the world needs to grow a pair. We ain't all that.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          Oh!  So you are just pretending to be "all that."

          1. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

            I am all that. smile

            I was speaking of the country, as opposed to any other.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image23
              Castlepalomaposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              I don't have any stake in this US election except I need to gun it faster to Bolivia if Trump wins. I hear Cher is leaving the planet if he wins.

              Right now Hillary has 275 electoral votes , she only needed 270 to win, is that not correct.?

              1. PhoenixV profile image79
                PhoenixVposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                I'm sorry to have to tell you but Cher left the planet long ago.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                  Castlepalomaposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  Have you looked at Trump's celebrities. Never seen so many Nick, cowboys, hillbillies and rednecks on steroids. When I look at Trump riot fans, I get a white head growth on my neck.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image23
                    Castlepalomaposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    Monica Lewinsky is voting for Clinton. I guess the Last Clinton did not leave that bad a taste in her mouth.

                  2. jonnycomelately profile image85
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    Haha, Castle, that "white head growing on your neck" is what we here in Tasmania call our second head.  Imports like myself have to grow one and hope it gets to maturity before we pass on, so to speak.
                    It's a hereditary advantage, because it comes from the old saying, "2 heads are better than 1."  Hence, we are all superior in our own little way, much more super than any other race,(sorry, culture!) in the world; and a little b(p)ig-headed with it.   And it does mean that if one head makes a silly decision it can always be blamed on the other.
                    So, let that white head grow.  It might get you out of a tight spot sometime.
                    wink wink

                    Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I feel a need for light relief.

  3. FatFreddysCat profile image92
    FatFreddysCatposted 4 weeks ago

    http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/13269392_f1024.jpg

  4. PhoenixV profile image79
    PhoenixVposted 4 weeks ago

    http://i.imgur.com/TApdX6b.jpg

  5. PhoenixV profile image79
    PhoenixVposted 4 weeks ago

    I'm just eternally grateful we will never have to ever hear any more downtrodden 99% woe is me the 1% stuff.  Seeing that the liberals or democrats are voting for the candidate that has more ties to wall street and the 1% than an ATM. HIllary Bill and the Chelsea wedding /charity foundation are a walking talking ATM for Wall St, Banks and the Kings of OPEC.  No more 1% nonsense ever.

    1. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      When Hillary says she thinks the rich should pay their fair share, under her breath she is saying they should pay it to the Clinton Foundation.  And they do.

  6. Kathryn L Hill profile image85
    Kathryn L Hillposted 4 weeks ago

    We have had a democrat in the executive branch for long enough. Rep's turn.

  7. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 4 weeks ago

    I just love the fact that a Australian  or New Zealander and an Englishman   are arguing over what would be best for America ---- AFTER  both of these two countries sold away their own liberties , freedoms and power of the vote giving BACK  to their respective governments the power of your peoples !  England  still has a Queen for god sakes and the other one is apparently jealous of the threats against the impending Coronation of Queen Hilary for America !   They are burning effigies of Trump throughout England , my suggestion - Clean up your own house.

    Ronald Reagan realized something about foreign power and their  policies towards the US.,  Make them respect  you out of their own fears .   That there is no better way to guarantee peace -than to be prepared for  conflict ......always

    Want a peaceful world ?  Be the toughest guy on the block.

    1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
      Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      Thanks, but I don't quite understand the meaning of 'sold away their own liberties , freedoms and power of the vote giving BACK  to their respective governments the power of your peoples !' My apologies, I'm not trying to make a point, but can you clarify?

      As far as the Queen is concerned, she has no effective power. It's just a figurehead position, without any power to make policy. Many in The UK, and of course in Australia, would abolish the monarchy, and if that ever becomes a majority, then democratic will would mean they'd have to go.  But the large majority at the moment support the institution first for the traditions it represents, and secondly because the monarch is a stable, unifying figure uncorrupted by politics. I guess the attitude towards the monarch is similar to the American allegiance to the flag - something to rally around. It's not undemocratic in that sense.

      'Burning effigies of Trump throughout England'. I wasn't even aware of that until you mentioned it! smile I just looked it up. It's happened in a few places, but it's nothing very hateful. There's always bonfires on 5th November in the UK - it's traditional, and lighthearted. Usually they just have a stuffed dummy on the top (Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up Parliament in 1605), but I guess sometimes for a laugh they make an effigy of the most repulsive current political figure they can think of. It's probably usually a British politician, but I guess if they've been choosing Mr Trump this year, then that indicates just how low is the esteem for that man.

  8. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
    Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago

    The Result? Well I think I'm going to bed. It's now 4.00 am over here, with 15 states left to call. It looks like it's going Trump's way. If Florida goes to Donald Trump - and it seems to be - then it may come down to Michigan and Wisconsin. Hillary Clinton will possibly need both of those. Maybe even tiny New Hampshire will be decisive?

    Believe it or not, even a tie is possible, if Michigan goes to Trump, and Wisconsin and New Hampshire go to Clinton, and other states go as expected.

    But it looks more and more like Trump will win. You know how very stupid I think that is, but if that's what happens, it'll certainly make the next four years very interesting. smile

    1. Credence2 profile image85
      Credence2posted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

      'Interesting' would be an understatement, it's mourning in America.

      1. Live to Learn profile image82
        Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

        I'd like to point out that the majority spoke. So, the mourning in America will be the portion of the minority too selfish to attempt to understand why.

        1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
          Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          I think 'too selfish to attempt understand why' is a strange phrase to use 'Live to Learn'. I think the difficulty to understand why, owes less to selfishness, and more to the incomprehensibility of the thinking employed by so many in this vote.

          1. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

            As a foreigner I wouldn't expect you to understand. I have attempted to explain it to you so I can only assume you are accusing me of not possessing the ability to think. Either way, we are now in a position to possibly start cleaning house. If we can get our house in order maybe we'll have time and develop an interest in your house so we can spend time on the internet bemoaning things we don't understand also.

            1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
              Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              I wish you didn't feel the need to asume that because I am a foreigner, I don't understand. That's just being condescending. I do understand what I regard as the most important issues. And I said 'so many' - not all. I did not say you didn't think. But many millions - Americans as well as foreigners - find the result of that thinking, incomprehensible.

              Oh but wait a minute - the vote was rigged wasn't it? ....

              1. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                A guy with no political machine to use to strong arm wouldn't be able to rig the vote. I will admit that I was surprised it wasn't rigged. Very surprised. Maybe we aren't quite as far gone into corruption as I had feared. But, there is still a lot of work to do.

                I would also hope to allay your fears on at least one count. I do realize that growing up in Europe, whose history involves dragging the world through two world wars, you would be concerned about such things. I don't see Trump as the candidate we should have feared on that front.

                1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                  Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  I'm sure you realise I wasn't seriously suggesting that Trump rigged the vote - I was merely pointing out that this was the first of hundreds of allegations Trump made which can probably now be discarded as wrong.

                  As far as WW1 is concerned, at least you only went back 100 years, and not to the Revolution, which is where discussions of this kind between Brits and Americans usually seem to end up smile As far as WW2 is concerned, perhaps it's a little unfair to blame a whole continent for the actions of Nazi Germany!

                  1. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    I blame Europe for the wars. They chose to allow circumstances to move in the direction of war. I'm sure there were crossroads between the two wars which might have allowed the world to avoid conflict. Which, incidentally, is what caused America to develop its strategy which has brought us to today. Whatever you say, we haven't had another world war so maybe we've done something right along the way.

                    The revolutionary war is a prime example of who we are as a people. Honestly, we are experiencing the shackles of tyranny and we do not bear such without complaint.

          2. ahorseback profile image46
            ahorsebackposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

            Don't be disappointed , watch as the countries of the rest of the world ,including yours , grow a healthy  re-respect of America .....even to the point of proving your attitude ,  you have O business opining as to the character , integrity and moral standing of Americans and THIER choice of a leader !    It's just your envy to begin with .  If the meaning of liberty is so strong in your personal and political existence  I suggest your immigrate TO America !.

            Time for those outside of America - to crawl back into the shadows of socialism - the people of America have spoken clearly .

            1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
              Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              1) I think you are deluded if you seriously think this is going to lead to more respect for America. This truly will lead to America being thought of as - in Donald Trump's words - a laughing stock.

              2) I have every business opinioning about character, integrity and moral standing of anyone - just as you do. That is debate and free speech. The 1st Amendment?

              3) Envy? No, I really don't think so. This isn't the place to go into all the reasons, but I seriously doubt many people in free democracies will envy the choice you've made.

              4) America has a different interpretation of the word 'socialism' to almost all in the rest of the world. Nobody would call me socialist - except right wing Americans and maybe Saudi Arabians!

              1. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                If you are going to debate Americans about American politics you will have to accept our definitions within our political system. It goes back to the statement of not knowing anything about us.

                1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                  Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  I DO know things about you - I'm well aware that politics in America are far to the right of most other democracies. Conservatives (the right wing party - including me) in the UK are more akin to Democrats  in America. But a country cannot just make up its own definitions, and expect the rest of the world to follow suit.

                  1. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    If I ever choose to insert my nose into the business of your politics I'll expect to abide by your definitions.

                    Edit., I will point out the European arrogance of your statement. Europe and Britain's little kids (Canada and Australia among them) don't get to define anything except within their borders. That ended with Europe's imperialistic days.

              2. ahorseback profile image46
                ahorsebackposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                Americans have spoken loudly  and like it or not ,this is America's day.   When the rest of the world  watches in rapt attention  - AND then  comments so critically , I can only assume that envy is the larger part of your conversation.

                #1 . Fear breeds respect ,   Reagan taught you that . Americans are actually sick of being manipulated and laughed at by the  outside forces and voices !

                #2-The first amendment is a hard won American constitutional  right - we took it from the kings and queens that  you  could not and cannot .

                #3-No Envy  ?    Then why DO you care about an election so far from those of your own?

                #4-Socialism -economic  Entitlementism -call it what you will ,   In reality ,   someone has to pay for the perception of YOU reaching into MY pocket- and that someone is me . And the" Me's" ,who are now economically broke ,  have spoken loudly .

                1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                  Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  Of course we watch and criticise. America is a superpower. What happens there affects the rest of the world. Why should criticism be down to envy?

                  We all have free speech, even without the need for a 1st Amendment, but sometimes it seems anyone who criticises is told to shut up.

                2. jonnycomelately profile image85
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                  1. Fear shows in your religion, your disrespect for people different from yourself, those better educated and informed.
                  2. 3. and 4.  You might care to clean that mirror, then take a long hard look at your self as an American and ask yourself, "What must I do in my own life that will improve America's standing in the world?"
                  The answer you might arrive at : "personal honesty, responsibility, further education, wider horizons, genuine humility and experience."

                  1. ahorseback profile image46
                    ahorsebackposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    How America looks to the rest of the world ; If you really cared about that ; You would already know !
                    The world wars that kept us all safe from speaking German
                    The last economic superpower that will ignite the rest of the economies again .
                    The blood and treasure spent  to preserve even YOUR  liberties.
                    I think America has performed very well ,   I think we all hear far more about America and its dirty laundry than we do about the rest of the worlds too.

                  2. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                    You foreigners never cease to amaze me. Never once have I seen an American chime into any forum on a foreign country (if one exists) and insult any of you.

                    Is life so incredibly boring in Australia that you can't find something of value to do?

            2. Live to Learn profile image82
              Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

              OK. That attitude kind of scares me. I'm just hoping for a more fiscally responsible approach to America and her problems and a focus on helping Americans who need it before we send money over the ocean to throw it into some hole of corruption elsewhere. Oh. And to stop lining the pockets of the Clinton Foundation.

              1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
                Greensleeves Hubsposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

                Thanks for that. I can certainly agree with that as a legitimate reason for voting for Trump, even tho' as you'd understand, I feel it is outweighed by all the negatives.

        2. jonnycomelately profile image85
          jonnycomelatelyposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

          As I see it, there are two factors that could see the downfall of your country over the next 4 years: Hypocrisy and Divisiveness.

          1. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 4 weeks ago in reply to this

            I completely agree. Unfortunately, democrats and republican I've spoken with have the samehopes and wants for this country as we independents. The main problem driving our problems is arrogant assumptions about others. No one wants to listen. They all know so much about others they don't need to listen to them.

            Like this election. Liberals are so sure ignorant bigoted idiots elected him that they won't listen to the real reasons the majority voted. I was listening to the radio this morning. They had a guy on to comment. He was attempting to explain how the average working class American felt disenfranchised. How they felt Washington had turned their backs on America. The host kept insisting they not talk about that. He wanted the conversation to be about the minority of those who could be labeled racist. The commentator kept reiterating that wasn't the voice that elected Trump. To no avail.

            Liberals want to feel good about themselves at the expense of the truth. I hope they grow up, learn some manners and give the entire country the benefit of wanting what is best for all and not simply seek to have their personal desires satisfied.

  9. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 4 weeks ago

    We might start with the first woman to ever run a successful presidential campaign  Kelly Ann Conway for Trump !  Or we could celebrate the first Latino -woman elected to the senate in AZ.!    We could relish in the victory of "glass ceilings " like this in THIS election .    You see though , these are the victories and advancements that liberals have and will always conveniently  ignore , Why ?

    They do not fit the liberal agenda  - While liberals whine the world progress' just fine .

 
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