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Is London Terror teaching U.S. liberals..... anything ?

  1. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago

    Can the argument be made for learning experiences or is the left intellectually advanced beyond that ?

    1. Credence2 profile image87
      Credence2posted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      One thing that I do know is that creating a police state here in response to terror attacks overseas is hardly the answer but one that conservatives would be happy to embrace on the road to ever increasing tyranny.

      1. ahorseback profile image46
        ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

        The tyranny is in liberal one -mindset or one group- thought  apathy .
        Police state ?   How shallow . No  policing at all., as liberally promoted ...... does  not make police state .

    2. jackclee lm profile image73
      jackclee lmposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      If they haven't learned anything by now, they never will. Sad!

    3. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
      Greensleeves Hubsposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      I genuinely don't fully understand what lessons you feel should be learned, ahorseback? I'm not being sarcastic when I say that, but please explain - it may be a cross-Atlantic misunderstanding.

      The only very clear lesson from the two recent attacks in London that I know of is that gun control is a good thing. Four deaths from one terrorist, a knife and a car in March, and seven deaths from three terrorists, knives and a van this weekend. (This bit is sarcastic) Maybe we should have made semi-automatic rifles more easily available to the terrorists? Of course then many dozens would have died. Or maybe the public armed with their own semi-automatic weapons would have had a Chicago gangster style shoot out which the 'good guys' would have won, without casualty? (N.B most police in the vicinity were armed because of the sensitivity of the locations and because of recent events).

      1. ahorseback profile image46
        ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

        To be fair , I don't know how  you can even relate that these terror attacks are lessened somehow because of U.K. gun controls.  You must admit , it is foolhardy to disarm the police anywhere .  I know  SOME UK.police are armed  and who knows generally how far from the scene are those armed police  ? Just what lesson , convenience or sense is there in  a general disarming of police guarding the very public it is paid to protect ?  I know this also , being a gun owner ,  knowing all the gun  owners I do ,I know  this  public in general  in America will , would never stand to be disarmed at the  assurance of civil uprising .  The UK. will have to learn and  decide it's own future with unvetted and  unvettable immigration , but what you shouldn't do is tell America it HAS to  open it's borders too.

        AND more importantly ,I know this ;  You could easily put the top 10 countries that liberals and media generally compare to the US. in gun crimes - iNSIDE of the US. land mass and population  ,     There is no statistical  gun crime comparison  at all. that makes much  sense.from one nation to another   For one reason  ---who gathers said information , compiles  , compares , copies and  distributes ?  Are law enforcement  statisticians the same from Canada , the US. , the UK ,  Istanbul  ,  India , China .?......

        It is the pseudo-  ,intellectual, activist ,liberal academia that throws most "statistics , studies , fact's and media "  around like we are all just supposed to believe the religion of this  left.    The same left , by the way , that has so liberalized our justice system in America as  to model Europe countries  to virtually end  any real prosecution , punishment , incarceration  or  justice at all for many crimes whatsoever .
        "Gun Free" zones in America - The first prime choice  opportunity for a gun criminal to act ,  Chicago , NYC  , Baltimore ,  college campus'  public schools,  churches ,synagogues  .............Don't hear of many mass shootings in rural America do you ? Do you think it's because there are no crowds there ?

        Maybe America's love of guns  is the very reason America is the first nation called upon in times of strife and the one who supplies the most blood and treasure ? Suppose ?
        .

        1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
          Greensleeves Hubsposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

          Eh? I don't really know where to begin with that diatribe of cliches. But starting at the beginning, OF COURSE they are lessened by the absence of guns!! How can you possibly argue that the death toll would have been lessened by the addition of guns to the equation? Although some would have the police generally armed, most - including most police officers - do not want that,  and 'foolhardy' seems to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black, given that the murder rate is a tiny fraction of that of the USA, mainly because very few of our criminals have access to guns. As for 'who knows how far from the scene are those armed police?' - well this weekend the entire incident was over within 8 minutes - that included the first notification, police arriving on the scene, searching through panicking crowds, and shooting the terrorists dead. Even so, think how many citizens could have been shot in that 8 minutes.

          As for immigration, well most of us don't believe in unvetted, uncontrolled immigration - that's probably the main reason we voted for Brexit last year. And I don't think anybody is telling the US to open its borders -  merely that pursuing a clearly discriminatory and bigoted policy of immigration control, which is what Donald Trump favours, may be regarded as immoral. (But for the record I do agree with vetting of immigrants).

          There are plenty of statistical analyses which clearly demonstrate that the US is streets ahead in its level of gun violence. However one interprets these things, there is no doubt about that. Of course however, you are right that no two countries are identical in their make up, or their statistical recording - for example, the UK has a far broader definition of 'violent crime' than the US, so our stats over represent the level of such crime here, compared to the US.

          As for 'gun free zones'. I'm not sure of the statistics on that, but given that guns may be easily available in the 'zone next door', or on the black market with no interstate border controls, is it any wonder that you get gun crime in gun free zones?

          And as for the final point, I think maybe we call on America for military help because the military have guns - NOT because the civilian population have guns.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

            "How can you possibly argue that the death toll would have been lessened by the addition of guns to the equation?"

            Very easily; simply examine the statistics of gun ownership rates vs homicide rates in different countries.  For every country that has both few guns and few murders there are two that higher gun ownership rates and lower murder rates.

            Or course it's difficult to see when the eyes are closed and it is "obvious" that the reverse is true.

    4. colorfulone profile image89
      colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      From what I have been hearing and reading is that what is waking liberals up more than anything is that we have President that is keeping his campaign promises.  That is his agenda.  People were expecting just another lying politician, and I can't blame anyone for that.  Trump is refreshing in that light. 

      Gun sales records were at an all time high in May from what I read recently.  I know that liberals were starting to prep last year after Trump won...lol.  Hey, I'm glad they are, because I don't have time for people who don't have any foresight at all for self-preservation.

  2. mike102771 profile image84
    mike102771posted 7 weeks ago

    The need for car control and the banning of black cars.

    1. colorfulone profile image89
      colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      Maybe we should demand that the elite stop using air polluting jets to get from point a to point b first. They don't need to motor around on yachts either, telling us what we can and can't do. 

      Develop better emission controls on vehicles and keep the black cars too.  Or, it will continue ... do as we say, not as we do?

  3. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
    Greensleeves Hubsposted 7 weeks ago

    Incidentally, if I can make one point - genuinely grave, irrespective of whether one is pro or anti gun? I mentioned in a previous post about the recent London attack that: 'the entire incident was over in 8 minutes - even so, think how many citizens could have been shot in that 8 minutes.'

    Given that many American Muslims must feel a bit alienated by Donald Trump, and the tendency for copycat offences, I do fear America may one day soon suffer a truly dreadful similar crime, but involving guns. I fear that could happen here in the UK despite our relative lack of firearms, but of course it may be more likely in America, and I wonder if America is geared up for such attacks involving trucks, cars and guns in one of your cities. I truly hope that it doesn't happen, and I trust the police have undergone rigorous training to try to help them deal with such an event?

  4. colorfulone profile image89
    colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago

    Significant terrorist attacks have sprung up across the globe since the beginning of Muslim holy month of Ramadan May 26, with current counts confirming three attacks and 149 dead,
    * http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/03/149-d … n-attacks/

    then there was the terrorist attack in London and Saturday.

    Global Terrorism Has Tripled Since 2011
    https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2 … time-high/

    Islam is the problem.

  5. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago

    As I said , "Apples to Oranges ,many of  these comparison stats  .    All of them actually ,  Who's to say for that matter that less death would occur in the UK had guns been there or closer to there at the moment ,  The inarguably liberal media  HERE conveniently forgets  prevented crime and death because guns ARE present in many criminal situations , I have never 'seen ;  a gun crime but I have seen  prevented crimes including against my  own family .

    American Muslims are and have always been welcome here ,  vetted , assimilating or otherwise  , short of violence and crime .   America also is extremely vulnerable to  the crimes you describe as a matter of fact .     They are, have  and will happen many times to come.

    Obama , Hilary..Trump , Bush  etc. have all admitted  many Muslim ,Islamic nations , people are often unvettable . War torn ,  unorganized or unworkable governing agencies with in these nations or  non-existent governments altogether make it impossible to vet them , THEY will not end up here except illegally .

    Not so many gun owners trust that Statistical  Analysis  is in any way provable , reliable or honest ,  And rightfully so ,  Did you know that Obama was more responsible for record gun and ammunition sales in America by his rhetoric alone in both of his terms ?  How proud is the left of that ?

    1. Credence2 profile image87
      Credence2posted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      Not so many gun owners trust that Statistical  Analysis  is in any way provable , reliable or honest ,  And rightfully so ,  Did you know that Obama was more responsible for record gun and ammunition sales in America by his rhetoric alone in both of his terms ?  How proud is the left of that ?

      That is bullshyte, Ahorseback. So many of the rightwinger gun owners would not let the facts interfere with their inane reasoning. Blaming Obama for the increase in gun sales  is also an idiotic concept. There had been no serious threat by the Obama White House to take any guns away. You all were just incensed at the very idea of a black man in the White House, and you responded like any toddler. Stocking up on rattlers....

      1. ahorseback profile image46
        ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

        Credence 2 , You're   almost right about what you say ,   It had nothing to do with , for me at least  , "...............of a black man taking my guns ........." I never worried about that in the least , What it did do was create a hysteria among  some gun owners  to over buy ammo , guns ,  gun safes ,  and worry about the atrocious  bias of that administration against the second amendment  and all of our constitutional rights , BUT here you are wrong [again ]  there were record gun and ammo sales under his administration .check that out .

        Credence , I notice -with you- that everything ultimately comes down to racism or reverse racism  , you really should talk to someone about that ,It could be a serious problem .  I don't care the least what race you or Obama is ,or was ,   I believe  if anything  said about Obama can  live next to truth ;  is that he stated he is  only half black ?  Was the other half Irish ? If so ,  I can relate to his passions for cause.

        1. Credence2 profile image87
          Credence2posted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

          Credence , I notice -with you- that everything ultimately comes down to racism or reverse racism  , you really should talk to someone about that ,It could be a serious problem .  I don't care the least what race you or Obama is ,or was ,   I believe  if anything  said about Obama can  live next to truth ;  is that he stated he is  only half black ?  Was the other half Irish ? If so ,  I can relate to his passions for cause
          -----------------------------------------
          Because with folks that resemble yourself, it underlies their real distaste for Obama. It is a serious problem, that is why I am talking to you about it.

          Half black? The standard rubbish that I always hear from the right?

          1. ahorseback profile image46
            ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

            Your issues  , seem like Obama's  own  ingrained personal racial  problems  and  are starkly obvious .   All problems come down to "someone's out to get me "   ,  For Obama ,  it all began with the very telling  "Beer Round Table "........the Harvard professor arrested for whatever .......then in the White House gardens . 

            What a wake up call for an American public  who was far , far more   evolved than Obama's  personal judgements about racism .      No one I've talked to  had a clue what that was about ? But , he endeavored to incite further problems by inciting  a false racism in his power to bring that to the  self ingratiating  media forefront .

            No one seemed to care more about Obama's race  that Biden and Hilary , care to discuss that ?

  6. colorfulone profile image89
    colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago

    Terrible if this is true.... hard to fight terrorism unarmed, too!
    GOING VIRAL: Report: Unarmed London Police Ran Away From Terrorists Leaving Citizens Alone To Fight & Throw Chairs At Them
    http://americanmilitarynews.com/2017/06 … m=facebook

    London attack is wakeup call to end PC. Supreme Court must restore POTUS power to restrict entry from countries with many terrorists & poor security.  Its time President Trump has an Andrew Jackson moment.  Hopefully, we already tighten security on who is coming into the US from the UK.

    1. colorfulone profile image89
      colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      Stefan Molyneux, was raised in London. Here's a short 6:42 video: "What Pisses Me Off About The London Bridge Terrorist Attack"
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QGTQTpnsnY

      Stefan, is a very intelligent man, honest, I think he lives in Canada now.  First time I ever heard him sing a little, carries a tune.

      1. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
        Greensleeves Hubsposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

        I was not aware of this gentleman, so I watched the video - and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I've rarely seen so much distortion, so much cherry picking of facts, so many inferences which are total non-sequiturs, and so many half truths and downright lies (except perhaps on Infowars). And all presented with a dramatically over-the-top style which wouldn't win Mr Molyneux a place as a credible character in a cartoon comic strip!

        Steven Hassan, a mental health counsellor and expert on cults, describes Mr Molyneux's appeal to his followers as 'cult-like' and sums him up in this way : 'Molyneux knows how to talk like he knows what he's talking about—despite very, very little academic research. He cites this and cites that, and presents it as the whole truth.'

        And yet you describe Mr Molyneux as 'a very intelligent man, honest'!

        I am coming to realise - far too slowly to my shame - that too many people cannot sort truth from fiction. Anything contrary to their point of view is seen as liberal fake news, perpetrated by mainstream media in pretty much all countries, politicians (both right and left) in pretty much all countries and scientists in pretty much all countries (including America). On the other hand, the pronouncements of people like Mr Molyneux are accepted almost without question - certainly without critical analysis.

        It's all too reminiscent of the way people such as conspiracy theorists gather their evidence.

    2. Greensleeves Hubs profile image97
      Greensleeves Hubsposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      I am sceptical about that report - I've not seen any other independent verification of it in interviews with eye witnesses, and it does seem slightly unlikely that officers would 'run away'. There were however, four police officers injured after running towards the terrorists. Interesting that you chose to selectively highlight that one negative report.

      But whatever the truth of it, the point is nonsense. In France many (though not all) police are armed, and do you remember how many died at the Bataclan Theatre, or at Charlie Hebdo? And how many have died in shootings in America, where I believe the police are all armed? It only takes seconds for terrorists (with guns or using vehicles like cars or trucks) to kill a lot of people - short of having policemen spaced every few metres on every street with guns drawn, armed police do not necessarily make a lot of difference. Do you know how many terrorist attacks of the scale recorded in London we'd have to have in order to even come close to the murder count in America? The majority of police being unarmed in the UK does not seem to have seriously increased the number of deaths resulting from terrorism, perhaps because the majority of terrorists do not have access to guns.

  7. Will Apse profile image88
    Will Apseposted 7 weeks ago

    These are the root causes of terrorism:

    A grievance
    An ideology that embraces violence
    Racism/nationalism

    And in this case that means:

    The Bush/Blair Wars.
    Sunni revivalism courtesy of the medieval kingdom of Saudi Arabia
    The unrelenting denigration of Muslims

    It is hard to impact any of those things, except for the latter.

    1. ahorseback profile image46
      ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      Can you spell , S-H-A-L-L-O-W ,    Terrorism began in the modern world long ,long before Bush-- Blair !  Why don't those on the left read a history book occasionally ?       An opine like this one above is  actually quite embarrassing ., probably even to  a few of those on the left .

      1. Will Apse profile image88
        Will Apseposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

        I like to keep stuff soundbite sized in these forums. But if you want a slightly bigger picture:

        The grievance is 500 years of European pressure on the Islamic world ranging from outright colonialism to  routine interference in the governance of countries across the region, with the Bush/Blair invasion of Iraq as the worst example in recent times.

        Nothing to be done about past mistakes/crimes except to learn from them.

        But the importance of racism/Islamophobia cannot be overestimated. You need a lot of alienation and hatred to keep a terror campaign going.

        Every time some nutjob vandalises a mosque or hurls insults at a woman in a hijab, they are pouring fuel on the flames.

        1. ahorseback profile image46
          ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

          When exactly has your last  couple  lines , -fantasy world - , happened recently ?
          Wow , that   opinion  is  " out there.".

          1. Will Apse profile image88
            Will Apseposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

            lol. It is a pretty standard, middle of the road perspective, which plenty of conservatives around the world would agree with. You do not need to get into postcolonialism to arrive at those views.

            1. PrettyPanther profile image84
              PrettyPantherposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

              That perspective is standard among terrorism experts as well.

          2. Aime F profile image83
            Aime Fposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

            These things literally happen all the time, perhaps if you took a second to stop seething at MSM and focused on a news source other than Brietbart you'd be aware of them.

            I personally witnessed a woman yelling "shame on you" at a lady in a burqa (who was with her son probably around 5 or 6 years old and doing nothing but walking down the sidewalk with him) in the middle of a quiet suburb in Canada, so I have no doubt it happens all over the place and probably much more frequently than we hear about.

            Pretending it doesn't happen doesn't help anyone or anything.

        2. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

          Disagree.  The "grievance" is that the people of the Muslim world (particularly women) are looking at a far better lifestyle in other countries and wanting it for themselves.  They just can't have it as long as Islam rules them with an iron fist, and are departing the old ways.  Something must be done to maintain the power structure there, and demonization of the West is the answer.  Just as demonization of Jews was for another tyrant.

          1. Will Apse profile image88
            Will Apseposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

            Anything but accept a little responsible and face up to reality.

            I didn't do it! I didn't do it!

            Well, no you didn't. But your country and mine invaded Iraq. Your country and mine deposed a democratically leader in Iran and installed a murderous despot in his place, and my country and France rearranged the Middle East to suit themselves, leaving generations of conflict behind.

            As to the notion that everyone wants to be an American or a Briton. Absurd, lol.

    2. PhoenixV profile image80
      PhoenixVposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      Did the BBC or CNN or both, stage fake protests denouncing the attacks?

  8. PhoenixV profile image80
    PhoenixVposted 7 weeks ago

    a grievance, bush blair. colonialism interference. Poets poetry.  Cartoons cartoonists. Books authors.  anyone with a different belief or preference

    etc etc etc ad infinitum

  9. ahorseback profile image46
    ahorsebackposted 7 weeks ago

    Islam and it's Mainstream Media

    While liberals everywhere implode over their orgasmic  defence of ISLAM  and it's spread  using terror tactics and intimidation , out of dopey political correctness and practice of "free speech" ,   Not ONE Islamic media outlet  raises it's voice of opposition to Terror ,NOT ONE :

    It's Official --It's Now Left Stream Media

    -Where is the Muslim opposition to terror in western media
    -Not ONE  city mayor in mainstream media , Including Londons.
    -Not ONE Imam in mainstream media in America , the UK.
    -Not one "Bollywood or Hollywood " celebrity using their fame as voice
    -Not ONE voice of opposition to this terrorist  violence

    It's pretty Quiet on the Western Front of Islam
    It's Pretty Noisy in the Brothels of the Liberal-dom

    1. colorfulone profile image89
      colorfuloneposted 7 weeks ago in reply to this

      CNN was caught staging a peaceful Muslim protest in London after this terrorist attack.  More fake news. Muslims don't protest terrorist events, they are staged scenes by the likes of CNN.  Someone used their phone and posted the footage of the fake Hellywood style news scene on Twitter, its gone viral on the internet since.  CNN is famous for this kind of staged fake news crap.

 
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