Some are saying that the defiant protests over the election are undermining the authority of the Ayatollah and his government and may make future protests more likely and harder to control whether or not the immediate goal of a recount or another election is achieved.
I tend to be cynical about what's happening.
To me, it looks like Iran is heading toward a tougher dictatorship with less tolerance for protests and disputes on voting results.
I expect that Mousavi will either be making a speech soon congratulating Ahmadinejad or Mousavi will be portrayed as a traitor to the revolution and get arrested.
There's a small chance that the Ayatollah will be out but most likely, the Ayatollah's staying in place and Ahmadinejad's power has been strengthened.
It's about time the Middle-East democratized and by themselves. Setting a good example has always had a further reach.
Yes indeed, I doubt in the near term, there'd be any significant challenge to Ahemedinejad or the Ayatollah. But, what this sham election has done is to build resentment and lay the foundation for future protests.
Also, the farce of democracy in Iran has been exposed with this election.
When the election process was on in Iran, I was very much pleased that a democratic society is around in West Asia. When the results were announced, I was more pleased... And when the defeated presidential candidate turned down the results and said it was rigged, I was a little upset. When the supreme religious revolutionary leader upheld the election results, all my pleasure faded away. It would have been better if the Ayatollah "nominated" the present president. Ayatollah must understand that deception will never last long.
I think that we are getting a firsthand look at lady liberty at work.
The significance depends on the Iranian people. Just because they're protesting the election results does not mean that they're ready to empower a humanitarian-based republic. Most Iranians, I believe, that sharia law is the best basis for civil and religious society.
I think they have shown the world significant will. The Iranian people are calling for liberty. The government is denying it. So that all goes without saying, that apparently it is NOT dependent on the Iranian people.
Not so sure about that one - I have met quite a few Iranians here, and they do not want that.
Mind you, that is a handful of people out of millions, so may not be a representative sample
I suspect that it is largely generational - many countries in the region reach this stage. Watching the developments with interest - we have an English language Iranian news channel here, and it provides an interesting contrast.
Do you have a link to the data you base that belief on?
Yes, and Humanism is just a deception. Humanism revolutions backed by Freemasons like French and Italian Revolutions brought WWI and WWII for the mankind and also the coming WWIII.
You're assuming they are calling for liberty. Their definition of liberty may be different than yours. When you say liberty, you mean a humanist interpretation of liberty. I can understand that because it's part of my cultural baggage as well. What neither of us can do is predict how the Iranian people as a whole define liberty. I suspect it has something to do with sharia law, because in this day and age much of Muslim identity is wrapped up in sharia and the Caliphate and recapturing lost glory. That will surely have an impact on how their concept of liberty plays out in the real world.
Com'on ledefensetech. Liberty is liberty. Definition; an action going beyond normal limits. Now I know your smart. And I know that you probably know the definition of liberty off the top of your head too. Liberty is liberty. They are calling for it. I'm not assuming jack.
Liberty is not in your bikini culture. This brings only degradation of women, making them society butterflies.
I rather think they're protesting Ahmenejad because they're tired of his false promises of prosperity. In that regard, they're not much different from the people of the Warsaw Pact in the 1980's. Honestly, I hope you're right. I hope that there is a birth of liberty there. However, they are struggling against thousands of years of tradition. Persian monarchs once sat on the World Throne. Like Romans, they believed that it was their duty to rule the known world. I don't think you put enough weight on that.
Like I said, we come from a history and tradition steeped in humanism and liberty. From the Greeks to the Enlightenment, the West has almost always recognized the rights of the individual. Persians come from a very different tradition.
And protesting is not the free voice of liberty? I can see we are making no head way. Thanks, but I don't see how you can dismiss it. And to me, it is obvious you are trying too, but as with your own first sentence of the last thread- you can't.
When do protests come in motion ledefensetech? Fact ledefensetech, not personal theory would be the request from me. Hey I'm off to lunch. Have a good one.
Plenty of people in Iran are protesting for a variety of reasons. It's interesting to see how many women are involved because their liberty has been denied. Others are unhappy witn Amadinejad for a variety of good reasons--the economy is not doing well; he's a laughingstock/pariah around the world for his outrageous Holocaust denial statements and thumbing his nose at leaders of other countries; and he's wasting huge sums on weapons development which will serve no useful purpose for the people of Iran. (Of course, we are doing the same thing here in the U.S.)
Sure, LDT - there is a lot of history there. Ancient Greeks respected the Persian tradition immensely (they were the only people not regarded as barbarians!) - there is still a lot of mutual respect.
It seems to be a complex situation - the Iranian news channel hardly mentions the protests, so we need to rely upon Western media. The Iranians that I have met understand freedom very well, and are very pro-individual rights and trade. Much like the Greeks, really - individual liberty is extremely important.
On the other hand, they are likely to be from the wealthier segment of the Iranian population, so may well have a different viewpoint from the mainstream.
My eye doctor is Iranian. He is marveling over all the events currently going on over there. He says that on a normal given day, that protesters, vocal persons, and opposition are killed on a regular basis. He says his mother has been among the protesters and for the first time in her life, been free to weep in public. I guess it is pretty exciting times, if we could get pass the bloodshed.
Hi IE - Long time no see
Interesting - of course, the Iranians that I have met have been outside the country, so can speak more freely. Nice to have yet another interesting perspective. I have watched many documentaries about Iran (a place I really want to visit), and the young people seem to be fed up with the 'religious' police.
Just as an aside, I watched a documentary a few years back, and they went to visit this guy. A lovely man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ayat … _Montazeri
Hey Sufi, what's up? Montazeri seems like an interesting guy. While he supports humanism in a general sense, he's also an Ayatollah. Still I've thought for quite some time that what Islam needed was a religious figure that could open Islam up to reason, much like Thomas Aquinas did to Christianity. He might just be one of the guys to do that. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
Yes! I love reading intelligent discourse in online forums.
I agree entirely; I think that, practically and theologically, this is the main barrier keeping Islam from moving forward.
Regardless of whether or not most Iranians want sharia law, it is what most of them know, and I think the influence of it is what is most important here. If I grew up hearing about "inalienable rights," then they grew up hearing about "modesty" and "avoiding temptation." So the degree to which I believe in all men being created equal, I would expect any Iranian to feel the same way about any embedded tenet of Islamic law.
We cannot forget that when discussing this type of issue.
The last part of your post is key, I think. Wealthier people tend to be more educated thus their ideas about the world and our place in it are different than say a subsistence farmer. When talking about groups like that I tend to think about your average middle class family here in the States and the general level of some places in Appalachia. Even today Appalachia counties or some of the poorest in the US. They have a very different outlook on life than someone from say, the West Coast.
Also we are talking about a theocracy here. It's much different than a dictatorship controlled by atheists or nominal atheists. Religion as a whole has always been good about giving people a framework from which to see the world. We ignore that at our peril. Western leaders once ignored the religious angle in Iran and the Ayatollah was able to come to power, we cannot really afford to ignore this again.
Sufi, are your friends expatriates? If so, that may also be why they think the way they do.
Nope, on holiday - as you can imagine, many Iranians want to visit Sparta, to look at the history. Likewise, a lot of Greek scholars visit Iran, to look at Persepolis.
Little difference, though - if they can afford to visit Greece, they are probably wealthy. In fact, the Greek-Cypriot government offers residency to Iranians buying property there.
Quite honestly, I am not sure whether all Iranians want the theocracy - it does appear to be a generational conflict. Still, I agree with the meat (fish?) of your point - ignoring the religion angle is dangerous.
EDIT: I watched some interviews with him, and he comes across as a very open-minded and extremely nice man. He has been under house arrest for a long time, so we can read something into that. I think that there are some interviews online, but I only have dial-up, so it is difficult to check
Indivisual Freedom, which gives rights to a rapist to rape openly, which gives rights to gambler to gamble openly and repeatidly, which gives rights Zionists to cheat in the banking industry, which gives rights people to manipulate oil prices, which gave rights Hitler to butcher innocents and kick out Jews
The only way any of these ideals you list will work on a broad basis is if people avoid these vices without any restriction. Naturally. And, by the way, ideals are universal and not restricted to one culture just as vices are not restricted to one group.
Whoa whoa whoa. What you are describing is not individual freedom at all; it is anarchy. They are not, on any planet, the same thing. With individual liberty, rapists are not allowed to rape at all (let alone openly) because individuals have the right to be protected by the law. You can have your own rights, as long as they don't infringe on anyone else's rights.
So yes, you can choose to gamble your own money or smoke cigarettes to destroy your own body. But the rest of your examples go directly against liberty (and some of them are just incorrect, but that's a different issue).
Personal freedom is the ability to choose what you want to do with yourself. But if you're getting in the way of anyone else, you are breaking the law. That's why anarchists are wrong. We need boundaries to be free.
Good response, I was trying to remember the old saying that goes something along the lines that your liberty/freedom/rights to do what you want go just about as far as my nose.... Freedom/Liberty in the western world is limited at the point where it affects others. Anarchy doesn't respect any boundaries.... As I'm writing this - is it just me or is Liberty just an amazing word!
A few pages back it was mentioned that many in the crackdown on protesters were paid mercenaries which makes one wonder what their price is. The problem (from the governments standpoint) with them using paid thugs - is that they may be open to other bidders for their services.
Actually Helen, that's not anarchy. Anarchy just means that government doesn't provide any services like police and military. That doesn't mean that there are no organizations that provide protection. Laws don't keep people honest, custom and morality do.
Anarchy just means absence of authority. It's not that the government provides no services (that would be conservativism); it's that the government does not exist or have power to make rules, govern, etc. And while an "organization" could form that would give people safety in numbers, it would not be able to be widespread enough to help everyone.
You are right. If laws worked on their own, there would be no need for prisons, courts, or any other form of consequence. That said, "morality" is not just one thing for everyone, nor is "custom" or "culture," which is why we need a body of laws of conduct. Morality, custom, and culture then dictate whether or not people follow those laws.
But without the laws in the first place, everyone could behave however they wanted and infringe on the freedom of other people. Anarchy depends too much on the fact that people want to do the right thing. Maybe people in a vacuum. But there is no ultimate "right thing," and people are not pure; they grow up with influences, some of which will be negative.
If all that you say is true, why have nation-states not existed throughout history? Morality comes from a variety of sources. Religion, family, friends. You really can't pinpoint where someone's morality comes from because for people that have morals, it comes from different places. The problem with laws is that they proliferate. Rather than protect lives and property, now we try to legislate morality. That's why our jails are filling up with people. Who are being turned into violent criminals just by being in prison. So in effect we're creating more crime by going about things the way we are.
Absence of laws does not mean that we are free to act however we want. If there were no laws and I wanted to rape someone, I'm sure that someone would have something to say about it. Heck in the absence of laws, I'd probably get shot. Laws don't protect us, our actions do. Even with all our laws, law enforcement can only react. Once in a while they get lucky and stumble across something but for the most part, the majority of their job consists of taking a report and trying to find a culprit. If you truly wish to be safe, you have to be proactive, not reactive about it.
And yes, the etymology of anarchy points to it meaning "absence of government), just like gynarchy means a government by women and oligarchy means government by the few and monarchy means rule by one person or family.
I agree, earnestshub. That's a very well-said argument.
Nation-states don't have to be the only ones who can organize/enforce laws. And the reason they haven't always existed is because they weren't necessary when the human population wasn't as big as it is now.
Obviously we cannot legislate morality. That is the main problem with the American prison system; we are making things (non-dangerous drugs, for example) a criminal issue instead of a public health issue. That's not what I'm endorsing at all. I'm saying that good laws and the enforcement of them protects liberty.
But in the absence of laws, there is no uniting cause behind a group of people to cement them together. Especially in the United States, our laws (the oldest and best ones, at least) reflect our values: liberty and justice for all.
You are correct nation states are not the only ones who can organize and enforce laws. The problem we frequently run into vis a vis government and liberty is how do you keep laws from being made that are not protective of life and liberty? Obviously democracy and/or representative democracy have failed much like oligarchies, monarchies and autocracies. Governments have a vested interest in growing their power at the expense of liberty. History shows that they will lie, cheat and dissemble in any number of ways to empire build and consolidate power. How do you keep that from happening?
I also disagree with your characterization of the drug problem as a public health one. It is not, it's a problem only insofar as people choose to use them and in order to subsidize the cost of their drugs, they steal from the rest of us. It's a problem of people making a poor choice, not one of pubic anything.
As for cementing people in a common cause, why should we cement anything together. Isn't liberty enough. Isn't it enough for you to live your life and me to live mine as either of us chooses? Whether or not we choose to associate should be up to us should it not?
Instead of anarchy, I've often wondered what the results would be if you eliminated the residency requirement for citizenship to a state. For example, I live in Missouri, but I could choose to be a citizen of Wyoming for example. I wonder how long it would take for state taxes to fall and how states would compete for citizens in order to preserve their tax base. That wouldn't solve the problem of Federal power, but it would be, I think, a start towards limiting government.
Do you know the RAPIST is not killed in Europe, America or Australia, They get 2, 4 or 8 years sentence and when they come out they rape again. For more details, you can consult US Department of Justice. Do you know a large number of accidents which take place in these so called enlightened and modern territories, are due to ALCOHOL but they don't ban it. Do you know FED is in debt of TRILLIONS of dollars due to freedom which Zionists, Rothchilds and Rockfellers have on their money, diamond, gold ...
And despite that, we live in a very safe country. Your narrow minded views do nothing to reduce crime, all your solutions are based on hate and vengeance.
Right on earnest. They like to pretend that in their countries no crime exists. Take the example of rape -- in almost all Islamic countries, the onus of proving rape has happened rests on the woman. Where's the justice here? And why would women in these countries report rape, if they can be accused of being adulterous?
Obviously, unless rape victims speak out - they won't show up in official numbers. So, would less reported cases of rape in these Islamic countries mean less rape?
I had an Iranian student back when who went to Greece on a student exchange program and ended up converting to Greek Orthodox. He ended up in the US as an asylum-seeker because Greece wouldn't let him stay after his period of study and if he went back to Iran he would be beheaded.
Sadly true - 56k mobile internet.
Mind you, my friend is with a different provider - he brought his laptop up to the house and received a 3G signal. I will be switching next week - it is 20x faster!
Cheers, guys - it is hard work! Mind you, the view makes up for the inconvenience.
I live in a small village up in the mountains, so there is no chance of cable or broadband anytime soon. Mobile internet is the way - if I can get even 500k with the new provider, that is enough for my work.
I think the significance of the situation in Iran is that once again brave people who want change are trying to be heard. The population is split with the young and progressive, the educated on one side, and those with an agenda, the religious zealots and the current leadership on the other.
I also believe that if the protesters continue they will be shot like dogs.
From the news reports I've seen it sounds as though today may have seen more of a violent crackdown on the protests. It sounds like some outright butchery has taken place.... I had seen stories though in recent days suggesting that some in the police and military were not very eager to comply with the orders to take a harder line against the protesters... I think it will be interesting to see if a harsher response causes a split in the military/police. If that happens there could be a power struggle. One of the questions will be if the protesters have the courage to continue coming out after ever bloodier confrontations.
I do hope you are right about the army, I feel there may be change, simply because the police and army can't confiscate all the mobile phone videos and photos.
I heard that many soldiers are mercenaries, not regular police.
From the Washington Post:
In an unusual exchange, he said, a child walked up to a regular police colonel and, gesturing toward truckloads of riot police, asked him, "Who are those guys?" The colonel replied with apparent disdain, "They're cows."
It will not matter if the protesters continue, I don't think. Their point has been made and its on the world stage.
I believe it to be a civil rights movement.
It's a protest voicing desire for the nonviolent attainment of civil and women’s rights. These people are facing an army of firearms, fascism and fanaticism with words and green scarves. They are aware of the stakes but continue for the sake of universally given basic human rights and freedoms.
True in my opinion, I hope the Ayatollah gets rolled, that would help. His offer to "examine" the votes is a farce.
It would be nice if they could hear that the leader of the world's most powerful democracy unequivocally supported them in their struggle.
"Maybe, but it may not be the best first move. Anything that America says at the moment is unlikely to help. Same rhetoric, same results. We have been unable to reach the people of Iran by threatening them, maybe it is time to tread lightly."
Agreed. And many pundits are agreeing with you, too, from what I've seen.
Probably true. I'm just wondering how the average muggle outside of Iran (myself included in that) can support the average muggle in Iran and let them know that we want what they want. I think I'm asking what can I do here?
Join Code Pink?
I have heard that journalistically speaking, this whole thing has been blown wide open. Andrew Sullivan is posting tweets from citizens who are there while the protests and attacks are going on. Obama even got in trouble, I guess, with the MSM and others for acknowledging this movement--answered some Huff Post blogger's question before the standard press corp ranks... (and he did already come out in support, they are saying, of the protesters, though actually, some insiders are saying it is not diplomatically smart).
That being noted, I'll bet there are internet participation sites where you could get involved.... I'll bet Code Pink has something out there, as this is in support of women.
I'd be very surprised. 'Feminist' groups in the US are more concerned with far left politics generally than the plight of women around the world.
God, you are soooooooo dumb. Just google it, shut up and let me be.
Seriously. There is no possible way you even have a degree...maybe a little business, maybe a two year degree. Byebye now, stalker.
you get a lot of those... was it something you said. lol. Just ask him if he needs a tissue for his issue.
See, this is what I was talking about. If this is your idea of an insult you really need to get out more.
Better call him up then. Maybe he'll talk to ya, after you tell him how many languages you speak, .... Degree's gotta be sooooo old, though, from the sounds of the linguistic theories. hahahahahhaaaa
Are you on this again? Gotta alter your attack pattern a little I see. Don't worry, it's still ridiculous in its cartoonish pretention.
My dear doggie, however old of a person you really are (and you should be ashamed, frankly), please remember you are the one who verbally attacked several people, including me, first. Until that point, I had no issue with you. I tried to be friendly to you, as did a few others. And frankly, this does wear thin, so you can stop attacking me and the others sometime soon, yes...
Just because a girl HAD(because you destroyed it--yes, believe it or not, there are people behind these computers with feelings) an interest in debate sparked by previous interesting conversations with other people and was researching it, is no reason to become accusatory, assumptive, or stupid. Unless you have a problem. Which it is obvious to many that you do...on, as we have witnessed, other internet forum sites as well.
And now I'm just making fun of you. Because I can't take you seriously at all. But I will stop even, because I really do have better things to do... Like RK said, you are one heck of a person. Wowsie...
I can see that. You're really, really bad at it, but have fun.
Ahhh, tk, will all due respect, I'm one of them. I feel when I'm being dumped on and also the other more jovial end of the spectrum. I've always been like that. Doesn't matter if I've never met the person, it's a sensitivity I've always had - love it or loath it! I'm learning very fast how to handle it better, but at the end of the day all the management won't stop the feeling. I've tried.
Hey, if you are honest about it and that's just how you are that's cool.
Totally honest, I'm too empathic, it can be a curse. I'm learning now to give as much crap as I get Not directed at you personally. It's just generally I'm learning to brush my knees off and get up again. Like a boxing match sometimes. Might as well be in the playground at primary school. So thanks for punching me around a bit, you're making me stronger. I'm not a weakling but I do bleed, we all do.
Speaking of playgrounds and bullying - reminds me a bit of the conflict in the middle east somewhat!
I just have to remember it's a skill and not a curse. I feel more crap than good stuff - unfortunately.
It's easier to change how you look at it than to change the crap. There will always be crap. How you look at it is the part you control.
Very true. But even if I can control how I receive the crap, it's still crap. If I intentionally throw crap then I will have to expect it in return. That teaches me to throw less crap and find ways to express myself without using too much of it.
Some people don't realize they are throwing crap, but they do. That's why self reflection helps. And cause we are all on the same planet, it helps to duck and weave and avoid as much crap as possible. Otherwise life can be a load of crap dodging. Smelling roses and crap don't go together well. But that's life. Doesn't mean we can't improve on it. I'm trying my end to decrease the crap. But if I have to defend my right to free speech then in the defending, there may be a little crap.
It would be a good move to hear that, from a humanitarian level.
on second thought, ask him if he would like an oreo so he can unlock the magic. lol
http://www.avaaz.org/en/iran_stop_the_c … db5be23944
This is a link to one site gathering a petition to stop the crackdown on protesters.
And actually, that segues so nicely with the forum topic, when you think about it.
I don't think most Americans (or cosmopolitan New World countries period) can fully appreciate just the general cultural depth of some of these conflicts either. I mean, we do and can--we are all people and there are universals, but some of these issues go back 1000's of years and so tied into religion and traditional ways...even traditional conflicts.
But when it comes down to it, sigh. You are right. Arrested development.
The protests against election results in Iran will lead to more anarchy in the area and the present rulers are bound to harden their stand.
That's an interesting idea LDT, about citizenship. If you expand it to the World, it might be a good start. Now just a little tricky task - to convince at least one of the governments to grant citizenship to anybody who applies, without hassle...
Looks like the protesters have returned to streets again today.
Wow, lots of people waffle on easily. Get to the point, people!
Here's a quite good website for current news about Iran. I learned about it this morning on NPR:
It was started several months ago by a young Iranian-American woman who runs it out of her living room.
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