I have a vision of some politicos sitting in the CIA or NSA rubbing their hands together thanking God for the terrorists and the whole advantage it gives them to operate. Can you think of a more fabulous scapegoat?
I don't know who said it but it goes something like, never let a good crisis pass you by.
It never ceases to amaze me the complacency under which some people operate. It seems entirely preposterous to me that anyone would wish for a terror event for the sake of politcal gain or to legitimize a need for an agency.
The plain truth is that there are radical extremist muslims who wish to kill us, and until we really wake up wholly to that fact, not just Americans, but the entire world will be in grave danger.
Couldn't find the part of the thread about Obama's Education/intelligence that I commented on and you questioned the day before yesterday, so I will finish with this info.
Barack Obama's educational background:
Obama entered Harvard Law School in late 1988 and at the end of his first year was selected as an editor of the law review based on his grades and a writing competition. In his second year he was elected president of the law review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors. Obama's election in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles. [ He graduated with a J.D. magna cum laude from Harvard in 1991 and returned to Chicago where he had worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley & Austin in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.]
Undergraduate Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA Undergraduate, 1981-1983
Columbia University B.A. Political Science with specialization in international relations Thesis topic: Soviet nuclear disarmament
Graduate Harvard Law School J.D. magna cum laude 1988-1991
President, Harvard Law Review 1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. Taught courses on the due process and equal protection areas of constitutional law, on voting rights, and on racism and law. Helped develop a casebook on voting rights.
Something happened to the thread and it has veered off in a weird direction of personal back and forth by a few people. So bye now
The fact that they are treating this guy as a criminal and giving him the constitutional rights of a US citizen clearly shows, Obama, Holder, Napolitano and this entire administration is absent of any logic what so ever!
This guy is without a doubt a foot soldier of AL qaeda, with whom we are at war. He should be treated as an enemy combatant tried in a military tribunal and put to death!
Everything this administration does regarding foreign policy makes us look weak and leaves us open to further attacks. It's frustrating to watch as these socialists that are running our country do everything possible to lead us to destruction on every front! 2012 can't come soon enough to save us from disaster!
How do you change the character of the political party system with out changing the system. It is entrenched so deeply that the corruption cannot be weeded out without their cooperation. Good luck with that.
Is it going to make you feel safer if they call it terrorism?
To answer your question, I feel neither more or less safe. The chance of being injured by a terrorist attack is so slim that the only reason it even crosses my mind is because it's impossible to avoid hearing about it. I don't understand why everyone is so afraid; the fear seems way out of proportion to me.
Of course it happens. Car accidents happen, too, but I don't worry about it every time I drive and it's much more likely I'll be injured driving than by a terrorist. I'm just saying people's fear of terrorism (in the U.S.) seems to be out of proportion to the actual possibility of it happening.
Compassion isn't reserved only for victims of terrorism. I suspect I have more compassion in my little finger than many of those who are so fearful of terrorism that they are willing to forgo basic civil rights at home and support the so-called spread of democracy through military force -- all in the name of combating terrorism.
They caught the guy, so I definitely think they are doing their job. Is this a new thread about how Muslims are just big boogie monsters, because really, I think some are a bit prejudice if you get my drift.
Sorry, but starting a thread just because you do not like Muslims is considered hate speech. The person who started this thread has an agenda, and it is plain as day. The man was caught, and that is that. Please everyone before you go off the deep end, realize how hate mongering and claiming all Muslims are terrorists is just wrong. At least us rational human beings have not fallen prey to these fear tactics.
I'm not saying that at all... You stated " They caught the guy, so I definitely think they are doing their job. " I was just correcting this part of your statement. Citizens on the plane caught the guy, not our government.
Security still caught him. You should not be trying to correct people, and it sounds as if you have a fear of the government I do not understand. I am sort of fearful of those who fear the government that much because the advocate anarchy, and that is something I am not okay with. Our government is not so bad, and if you lived in a country like Iran, well then, you might have a reason to fear the government. Americans do not actually realize how lucky they are, truly.
So you are saying that the person/s who 'caught the guy' only caught him because...? Are you saying the person/s who caught him were racist? Are you saying that what those people did to 'catch the guy' was anarchy and the thanks should be given to the government instead?
Bottom line: there is a degree of prejudice in starting threads purporting that Muslims are out to destroy the world. Do not put words in my mouth Sandra, and anyone who reads what I said knows what I said. No trouble making please.
Then don't put them into mine. What I took from their religion came out of their book that they say is the truth. I didn't say destroy the world, I said their book says that they will make everyone submit to Islam.
That is part of their book that is what scares me, that is what is going on. One of the most beautiful things I ever seen was a mosque and a church side by side on the same lot.
However no amount of debate could convince either side that what is written in the Koran is not going to happen. What don't you get.
The christians beleive it, the Muslims believe it and they both play their roles. Christians say that Islam is going to try to make the world submit to them, the Muslims say they are going to make everyone submit to them too so...
This is according to both books.
I do realize how lucky I am as an american and I am sure that the Islamic centers also know how lucky they are to be an American.
So when the same things that go on in their countries come over this way to our shores, what did they get away from?
Actually some of the more progressive types tell me that endorsing someone like Obama makes you too moderate for their tastes. If anything the Democratic party is absorbing many Republicans because their party continues to jaunt down the path of religious zealotry, which is a little ironic really. Depends on who you talk to, and I notice you sort of like extreme propaganda.
Harvey, it doesn't strike me as accurate to say that the Republican Party has "moved to the left." There are very few moderates left in the party. Most of them have been displaced by the likes of Imhof and other right wingers who are under the influence of the Evangelical Christians or Big Oil or both. The East Coast and West Coast moderate Republicans of the 50s-80s are virtually extinct.
And these numbers though not signicant to you are this low because we are complacent ? If the government took your rational we would do nothing to prevent it. Therefore maybe the numbers would be of a more significant amount for you.
I don't recall seeing where anyone said we should "do nothing to prevent it." Obviously, the work currently being done by the good people of the CIA, NSA, and FBI is working pretty well. They can't catch them all, though, but they certainly do try.
Again - my point is that terrorism has little relevance in my day to day life.
Now - as to the suicide bombers in Pakistan and Iraq: how many of them were there before we invaded Iraq?
This is what I'm talking about when I say fear makes us make stupid decisions.
Saddam, while truly a despicable person, had nothing to do with 9/11 or al Qaeda. We left our pursuit of the real enemy in order to invade Iraq. This turned many more people against us worldwide and was the best propaganda that al Qaeda could get. The people in Iraq are much less safe than they were before the war.
You don't win wars by turning your attention from one enemy to another right in the middle.
Hi Sweetie - Hope that life is treating you well and you had a great Xmas
I know the Hubs you speak of - I had some good, long conversations with Harvey and we both learned something, so that was cool. We disagreed about some things and agree about others, which is all part of good debate
Must admit, you can still have some great discussions on HP, away from the forums! That reminds me - I have not visited your Hubs for a while, so shall have to swing by
That is good you can have discussions with him, but I draw the line when people write things I find offensive. He does not respect certain people, and I refuse to get past that point. There are plenty of people to chat with on Hubpages that do not send me emails about Michael Jackson being a racist just because he had an interest in Islam.
When he was younger but fell away. Michael Jackson expressed an interest in Islam and read many Islamic texts, and the man who started this thread thought he was a racist for this reason. Sorry, but I really do not have a problem with people being Muslim, or even showing an interest in Islam. This thread really is not in the good spirit of Hubpages at all.
I have read and studied Islamic texts too. I think it is good to study about world religions, although as I have said before I do not profess a great interest in joining a religion. The person who started this thread has sent me emails about Michael Jackson being a racist, and I was referring to this. Anyway, I just do not buy into all the fear mongering, that is all.
Might as well ask what good has come out of Christianity. Because you can look at anything from a biased perspective and end up seeing only what you want to see.
Negatives from Christianity:
Christianity: genocide of Native Americans, and indigenous people all over the world. Burning of witches and centuries of Inquisition. Slavery. Resistance to the scientific worldview that has brought us out of the middle ages and given us material prosperity, longer, healthier lives, and unprecedented knowledge of how the world works.
Positives from Islam:
Algebra. Double entry accounting. Coffee. The pointed arch. Windmills. Inoculation.
LOL I never said I tolerate terrorism. I'm just not worried about my personal safety being affected by Islamic terrorists.
I am, however, a little worried by the Klan and the teabaggers and Christian wingnuts who stockpile guns and believe that Obama is a covert Muslim antichrist socialist new world order capitalist whatever.
I didn't know about the e-mail, Sweetie - that is disappointing.
Fully agree with you, William - Islamic science and philosophy is a passion of mine. Without the Islamic scholars, we would know nothing of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle - the Muslims kept the flame alight and the Greeks are very grateful for that. Medicine, mathematics, engineering, agriculture - the list of innovations goes on and on
If I could travel back in time, the Houses of Learning in Baghdad would be my first port of call. Muslim, Jewish and Christian scholars from all over the known world, meeting and sharing ideas
Because they are being killed by their own people and they didn't do anything. In my eyes innocent is innocent but that is what their religion has done to them. Some of them come over here so they can believe in peace.
But it follows along wherever it goes. I am almost certain that those Islamic folks living in America are aware of what is going on and do not think I am being prejudice or racist when they consider the bigger picture because it was written in both books.
There are folks who have accepted both sides for what it is not what they wish it to be.
I met a very lovely woman at a Mosque. I asked her why they were blowing people up. In short she said to me, "listen, they are not from God now are they?"
Why my views on never wishing war or death on anyone has suddenly vanished into oblivion, because I believe in the end?
And Sufi, then I am certain you understand what I mean by that... having studied the Koran as well.
I think that we have a different perspective - we had the IRA for a long time and learned not to judge an entire race or religion by the actions of a few extremists. The same with the Greeks and the Turks - the vast majority of Greeks and Turks get on just fine, but there are always the loud extremes who shout and try to create trouble.
I know many Muslims and they do not subscribe to this idea that everybody should submit to Islam, any more than most Christians do not believe in Biblical literalism of zionism. My life is shaped by people I meet and make friendships with, not the media's demonization of other cultures. I meet many Iranians in Greece, and they are not the fanatical demons that some of the recent rhetoric on HP implies.
It is a complex issue, but this idea that Muslims are standing by and letting extremists rule is not completely true (although there is some justification) - 60 million Pakistanis signed a petition proclaiming that terrorism was not in their name, yet there was little about that in the news. Sadly, there is so much politics involved in many Islamic nations and the religion is used as a form of control. For research, I have been speaking to young Muslims around the world, and I see a lot of hope. If you are interested, there are thousands of young Iranians and Saudis reaching out, with blogs and social networking - they see Americans and Europeans as friends, not enemies. They shared your grief at 9/11 and did not dance in the streets
A little tangent, from something I have been working on - women in Islamic nations, such as Iran, are not oppressed because of the Shari'a. It is because the conservatives in power fear women - that is why they make these laws to subjugate and control them. Personally, I think that something is brewing in Iran and revolution is around the corner - I just hope that it is peaceful, although that may be a forlorn hope
As for holy books - I am Christian, but hold little regard for literal interpretations of the Bible. If you look outside Saudi Arabia, most of the Islamic countries of the world are building democracies - in 50 or so years, they have come a long way, although there is still much work to be done. How long did it take the US and UK to build their democracies? Talking about laying waste the Islamic world and fearing Islam goes back to my earlier point - it lets the terrorists win by giving credence to the extremists. Ahmadinejad, aka the Poison Dwarf, has fabricated this entire diplomatic battle over nuclear weapons because he is using 'fear of America' to divert the people away from the fact that most of them hate him.
Do we feel safer - again, please bear in mind that we are looking from a completely different perspective, but we feel a lot safer than when the neo-cons tried to spread democracy and peace with bombs
This person has also harassed Lita on the email. He starts out all nice and conversational, and then sent her some really ugly messages. Those had nothing to do with Islam this time around, but it had to do with politics, or something of the like.
I admire your peace making ways Sufi . You are able to get along with everyone, and that is good.
You obviously know nothing about rednecks. A true redneck friend would be right there doing it with the first guy. They usually bring their wemmings along to serve as eyewitnesses and to tell the tale.
Sufi you make some good points. I read the book Honeymoon in Tehran, which is written by an Iranian-American woman who has lived and reported in the country for years. Actually many of the young and educated Iranians yearn to have a closer relationship with the West, but their government is run by mullahs who like extremism. Most Muslims do not even subscribe to their religion the way the most devout do. Same with most people that claim to be Christian. Most people in the world tend to be worried about more day to day matters, such as finding love, staying in love, or paying the bills.
BY TAMMY STABLES BATTAGLIA FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Leaders in metro Detroit's Muslim community today condemned Al-Qaeda's claims of involvement in the foiled Christmas Day airline attack, and asked non-Muslims not to link them with terror suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab.
"No faith or legitimate political ideology could ever justify the injuring or murdering of innocent civilians," Dawud Walid, director of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations said at a news conference at the center's Southfield offices today. "No cause or grievances can ever justify such wanton violence.
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claimed Monday that Abdulmutallab worked with members of its group and used Al Qaeda-manufactured explosives to retaliate for U.S. air strikes against the organization in Yemen.
"To our fellow Americans, we ask you not to paint all Muslims with a broad brush," Walid responded. "We condemn this type of injustice this criminal committed."
Kazeem Agboola, imam of the Muslim Community Center of Detroit, said he was "shocked" when he learned that Abdulmutallab was from his native country, Nigeria. He said he gathered members from the center's 25 families of about 10,000 Nigerian Muslims in Michigan on Sunday to remind them to be patient through any backlash they might experience from actions of Abdulmutallab or other religious extremists.
"These people are outside the true religion and the true fold of Islam," he said, also condemning racial or ethnic profiling as a reaction to the Christmas Day attack. "They are enemies of peace-loving Muslims throughout the world."
Abdulmutallab's failed attempt to blow up Flight 253 from Amsterdam as it landed in Detroit is not "jihad," or "striving in the cause of God," Walid pointed out. Instead, attacks are "irhab," or "terrorism," and "hirabah," or "unlawful warfare," according to Islam's holy book, the Koran, he said.
Walid's group is launching its own jihad, an online endeavor to provide legitimate information to young, uneducated Muslims who might fall prey to Internet rhetoric from religious extremists. He expects the online presence to launch by spring.
I don't think it matters which political party is in power on how safe we will be. Those that want to kill us can do it many ways and will be successful at times. We worry about planes. What about trains, cruise ships, buildings, shopping malls and the lists goes on....
Based on statistics compiled for the report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), the number of worldwide attacks by terrorists in 2008 was 11,770, which is an 18 percent decline from the 14,506 attacks in 2007. The number of deaths in 2008 due to terrorist attacks was 15,765, a decline of 30 percent from 22,508 deaths in 2007.
It's the chronic lower respiratory tract bad guys that worry me,
I agree about the growth part. My parents were conservative when they were younger; now they're more liberal every year. They say they haven't changed, but rather the GOP has strayed further and further away from conservative principles such as staying out of people's private lives and balancing the budget.
My experience has been similar to that of your parents. For many years I considered myself to be a conservative. I still to this day have never voted for a Democrat, (though I will probably add my vote to Obama's 2012 landslide victory). The one-time political party of thoughtful conservatism has been hijacked by evangelical, charasmatic hate mongerers who lead a rabid pack of narrow minded gullible fools. The GOP has sold it's soul very cheaply and will continue to suffer the consequences.
I have no idea what the word "alled" means; however I did make a reference to the upcoming Obama landslide in 2012. Perhaps reading the posts more carefully will enable you to formulate a logical response.
Yeah, you have to laugh at the hypocrisy of Republicans' crowing about "limited government" and "fiscal responsibility." Anyone who has their eyes open can only laugh.
My parents have voted Democrat since 96; 92 was their "transition year" (Perot). I've voted Democrat since I was old enough to vote, but, then again, as a gay person, the choice has been easy. (Me being gay was a big part of their reason, too - they loathe the homophobia that the GOP cultivates these days)
I do not feel unsafe or safer either. I guess it can be chalked up to faith but since I do not believe in accidents I do not feel a change in my sense of safety due to recent events. Life is and always has been a mix of joys and potential threats and I choose to focus on the joys and trust that everything that happens happens for a reason. It may seem silly but I feel that life is just to short to spend it living in fear of things that have not happened and just might not happen.
Sorry it took so long to find this post, got busy writing a hub . What I mean by I don't believe in accidents is exactly that, nothing happens by accident if it did then everything would have to be considered an accident. There is purpose for everything that is, and everything that happens. It might be a grand plan of some master creator that is often called God, or it comes from within, law of attraction stuff. Perhaps it is some combination of the two, either way a purpose is always served with every event. As a kid growing up I was abused by my step mom until the courts finally decided to remove me from the home. I grew up angry with a chip on my shoulder the size of a boulder. I became very suicidal and made more attempts then I can count, more then once I woke up in the hospital being told that I had almost died, 5 minutes later getting to the hospital and they would not have been able to do anything. I used to think, why me? Why did I have to go through all this crap? Well today I have shared my experiences and more importantly what it took to heal and have had quite a few people say that my experiences with healing from this stuff really helped them. Why me? Well why not? I am strong and courageous enough to want to share when I find someone who might need it. My experiences have given me a life that I am very proud of and has led me to do things that are worth doing. It is no accident that my step mom was abusive and I have learned much from that situation that I could not have learned any other way.
Yes. I live in London and was here for the 7/7 attacks, I lived in NY when 9/11 happened. By all rights I should not be here, but not because of those attacks. My mother had scheduled to have an abortion when pregnant with me but then had a total mental collapse and did not make the appointment due to being hospitalized. I almost died of whooping cough as an infant my future adopted dad just happened to glance at me as I was turning a deep shade of purple and was able to do mouth to mouth. More then one suicide attempt would have resulted in death if it had taken 5 extra minutes to get me help. You are more likely to get hit by a car (which I have also experienced ) then die because of a brainwashed youth who thinks they are serving Allah by blowing themselves up. Do you live in fear of cars that might hit you? Or do you carry on with your life realizing that it is out of your hands if you get hit by a car and the only real choice you have is to live in fear or not? Having been hit by a car (luckily not hard really, was able to walk home) you might think that cars would scare me as being hit by one was one of the scariest things I have gone through yet my job is to stop cars so kids can safely cross the road. By living in fear we are unlikely to do much good, by overcoming fear we can actually do something to protect and create a freedom from fear. Scare mongering is destructive and is playing right into the hands of those who wish to create fear.
Harvey, it doesn't matter who's in charge, the argument for any one party's better or worse handling of this nation is a dead, rotting corpse worthy of a swift burial at best. Those in charge are doing something; whatever that is I'm not privvy to, but I'm as safe as I can be under the circumstances. I believe critiquing the current administration's job of protecting our country and its citizens, sorely undermines their position and benefits nobody but OUR enemies. With that said, I wish you a Very Happy New Year.
Hi Harvey, the terrorists are getting wiser too, anybody is not safe anymore, but I noticed that when I travel to different parts of the world, Amsterdam at Netherlands is very lax indeed, NORTHWEST and other airlines and all the government in the wold need to secure all people from terrorists...
This isn't something that only one source has mentioned....
I just hope the storytelling doesn't disappear from the media's eyes like other past "attacks."
Now, I want to write about preferential reporting....
I was talking to my father about this recent attack, and I asked him why the Nigerian connection was so fascinating....
"Nigeria?" he said as he rolled his eyes in his "who the hell are Nigerians? they are nobody of importance!" look, which I immediately chastised....
Nigeria, the largest of all the African nations, was self-sufficient until very recently.... Their agricultural base economically and socially were upset as Western (Dutch to be focused on here) oil companies descended to extract their Nigeria's resources.... Farm lands taken, peoples uprooted...
The Ogoni recently gained a record 15 million dollars from Royal Dutch Shell to settle out of court a crimes against humanity case through which Shell was implicated in the financing and arming of Nigerian military forces to illegally arrest and execute members of the Ogoni people. These people were targeted because they had pressed for greater rights on their own lands (which Shell had gained control over).
So, in the Netherlands (the Dutch) a Nigerian "terrorist" gets aboard a plane and tries to blow it up??
What does this enable for Shell/Dutch government in Nigeria?
Of course, how come the media didn't talk about the acts of terrorism in Nigeria against the Ogoni? Their out of court settlement was unprecidented.....
But a few months later we are bombarded with the "Nigerian-al Qaeda?
I'm not selling, save your money. Was that a right wing statement? How can I be a right winger if I believe in abortion and civil rights for all people. Also the gov't shouldn't spy on us. I do believe in profiling in certain circumstances and I bet you do also.
No not really at all, but you are entitled to your opinion. I actually feel I have pretty good common sense, and I would never listen to what he has to say. Especially those emails about Jackson being a racist. He also sent out some really mean spirited emails to another hubber.
I don't know anything about the emails, sorry. I just talk about what he has said on other posts. I don't subscribe to either's side of the aisle, but I do appreciate a kernel of sense here and there; that's all I'm saying really.
Harvey, I feel safe enough. But then, you've got to consider the source when I say that. I've always felt relatively safe, yet one of my early careers involved riding (or at least attempting to ride) bucking bulls professionally on the rodeo circuit. My idea of being safe during my time in the Army was simply to know who had my back, and vice versa. I'm safe when it comes to flying because I quit flying after June 2006 (after airport security types cut the locks off my checked bag and tossed 'em). And I feel safe where I live despite our land having Mojave green rattlesnakes (the deadliest rattlers on Earth) as part of this area's wildlife population.
The point: Safety is both relative and subjective.
I feel very safe where I live, hardly any crime and the police are on my block. The safety I speak of is for all Americans. I have a friend that was in the trade towers. She is so bad a person working for doctors.
I thank G-D she made it out alive. She got on a bus going north covered in ash. She sat in the back, trembling. She is a White lady. After a while a Black lady got on the bus, sat next to her and held her (not caring about the ash). They never spoke and the Black lady exited after a few stops. A true American story.
A friend of mine had half interest in a bull named, Dr. Proctor. I believe he was the #2 bill in the country, only being ridden twice his first year. The next year he was #1, never being ridden. He got hurt and is a stud.
She lives in Oklahoma and is a retired vet. She also has a horse sanctuary and an Alaskan Husky sanctuary. Her husband is a dairy farmer.
I have always felt safe. Coming from the UK, I grew up with the IRA and all their destruction and killing. We just got on with our lives through all those times.
All these knee jerk reactions by our governments every time some terrorist kills, allow the terrorists to win each time by us being fearful. Yes, it's sad that people die, but if we keep over reacting, the terrorist wins every time.
Security should be sensible not over the top. We should bring back the death penalty as a deterrent and terrorists shouldn't be shown mercy. Lets get on with our lives and stop being scared of them.
Given the amount of violence that occurs in the rest of the world compared to the U.S.,one would think its citizens would feel quite safe. I think most of us do, but there is an element here that seems to be irrationally afraid of anything or anyone different from them. I have a hard time understanding it myself.
Sometimes, but not really. Terrorism is an awful thing, but being worried about it is a waste of people's time and effort. Isn't that what they want from us? Don't they win if we worry about it? We should be able to go about our lives in our usual ways without it turning into Big Brother, which unfortunately seems to be happening. Our freedom is being whittled away in the name of protecting us from terrorism.
One of the purposes of terrorism is to do exactly that. Whittle away at your freedom until it becomes something you cannot avoid. The government would like you to believe they are on top of it and go back to life as usual but they can't possibly cover all the bases.
People all over the world think that we Pakistanis are all terrorists. I beg to differ! I know that recently there have been quite a few terrorist activities around the world which were supposedly associated with...
Taliban in Afghanistan are fighting for their homeland. is it justified to call them a terrorist when there is no proof of their involvement of 9/11 which is used as a base against them? cabn any country declare...
Many people agree and disagree with racial profiling. To put it in simpler words, if someone looks like a terrorist, for example, do you think he/she should be stopped and checked in the airport only because the person...
I was checking out this Hub on Whoopi Goldberg and 'The View' and came upon Whoopi and Baver walking out of the show, on the remark of Bill O'Reilly that 'Muslims killed us on 9/11'. I then went looking and found...
On 2nd March, 2009, the Srilankan cricket players were proceeding to Gadafi Stadium, Lahore to play cricket with Pakistan. On the way, their vehicle was attacked by unknown terrorists, presumably 12...