I bring this up because some people think that the united states is trying to ban this altogether and think that it will result in more crime from children being allowed to get away with more.... what are your thoughts on this
Spanking is never ok. Never. Period. Not only is it a sign that you are unable to control yourself, you are also teaching your children that it is perfectly acceptable to hit another person in anger. How many abusive spouses do you suppose were hit as children? I'd guess about 100%.
Spanking doesn't make any common sense. Also the authorities that study child behavior all agree, spanking does NOT work.
I agree with this and feel that spanking is something the parent does for themselves and not for the child. Probably, some have used spanking without ill results but if there is another way, and there is... why hit the kid, even a lightly? There are better methods than intimidation.
Which do you think is more intimidating?
Getting one's hand chewed off, or getting a swat on the hand that is still moving towards the fence behind which there is a vicious dog after you've said no already?
I wish people who didn't have kids, or who live in suburban bubbles would stop trying to decide what's right and moral for everyone else.
I have two kids. One in college. Your example is an extreme and really isn't what I'm talking about. Verbal abusiveness could be worse than someone who spanks their child. I know a lot of loving parents who spank their kids - or did. My parents were odd not spanking. I don't think it has to harmful but I think there is a better way.
Don't presume to know my background because of dots on a screen, mam. I don't think anyone who smacks a kids bottom should be put in jail over here. I just think there is a better method and than spanking. I've never spanked but I've still done some crap things to my kids. It is trial and error. I'm talking more about the spankers with a belt or where it becomes a beating... not discipline.
I think a person who loves their kids but spanks still loves their kids and isn't an abuser per say. It depends upon the situation.
This is from an article in US News:
Per Murray Straus, a professor at University of New Hampshire and probably the world's foremost expert on spanking research…
“There is 93 percent agreement in the studies that spanking is harmful. It leads to more antisocial behavior in childhood, as well as increased aggression, spousal abuse, and child abuse in adulthood. That's an almost unheard-of consensus in parenting studies.
Not spanking doesn't mean not disciplining. My thoughts.
it is good to realize that all research and the theories made therefrom are limited...the research was not done on the entire population, where there are soooo many variances. and remember, science is theory, too, it is always being revised as years go by.
I think its clear that in society today children have a disregard for and lack of fear for authority unlike any other time in our history. There are myriad causes, but I think it goes back to political correctness, touchy-feeliness, and a thought as Americans that that we have unlimited rights, and that everything (including punishment) is somehow a violation of those rights.
I think that is fundamentally wrong, and I think its hurting us. In my belief, corporal punishment is necessary and effective. Of course abuse is another matter, and in such cases where its identified it should be stopped. But giving your child a whack on the butt for disobedience is not child abuse.
When I was a kid I still acted up and mouthed off. But if I got sassy, I did it from across the room. Kids nowadays (and I've seen this) will literally get in their parents' face and scream at them.
True, because parents today threaten kids, hit them, do drugs in front of them etc. Bad parents create monsters and then they don't want to deal with them. Children mirror parents.
WE brought them into the world so we need to love and protect them. Talking to a child nicely, respecting them, trying to understand them will get you more then hitting them.
If we don't like something done to us, we shouldn't do it to our children. PERIOD.
I agree to a point. But I think this notion that you can talk your way through anything is fundamentally false. Even in government, there is a time for diplomacy, and a time to bring out the guns.
Parenting is key. Bad parenting breeds bad children. That I can absolutely agree with.
May aunt used to tell me "You try to reason with a child." I pointed out her that a child has to understand reason before he/she can actively engage reasonably. She also believed that you always encourage a child, "you're the best, you cannot fail" blah, blah, blah. The kid is now in college, does not work, his father has a disease and cannot work, his mother makes very little money, and he still takes money from her. I've said a dozen times he should be working to support himself, and that if her parenting had worked he'd be responsible enough on his own to see that.
Of course, I'm getting a little off topic...
But he also was very smart mouthed as a kid. He also was not spanked. I would say that as an adult I have turned out far better than he will ever be having been spanked.
He's young yet, so I guess only time will tell.
I think it is relevant to the topic. The only kids I know who never ever were struck by their parents and came out okay, either grew up on farms or in such utter poverty that they grew up extremely fast.
If life spanks a kid enough when they're young, they learn about reality, and don't need spankings...but who's willing to actually let a kid get kicked in the nads by a donkey?
I know a guy that happened to. He was a wild child and didn't listen when his grandparents told him don't pester the donkey. Then one day he did the wrong thing and BAM!
The guy was sterile until he was in his 30's. He was very blessed to be able to finally have a child, but he might not have been so fortunate.
What a way to learn a lesson. He said himself that he'd rather his grandma just whooped his butt the first time he teased that donkey.
It's a way of teaching a kid about consequences. It's not to do with power like so many people have a tendency to think it is. The donkey situation is exactly one of those situations which spanking addresses in life.
That is to say that everything in life has a consequence. Consequences can be painful, they can also be permanent. It goes back to that military analogy I made about stop, think, and listen.
If I mouth off to my Mom, I may get a whack on the butt. If I yell at my boss, I may lose my job. If I rob a store I may lose my freedom.
This is why the lines get blurred for some people though. Where extremist anti spanking isn't a good idea, one has to respect the body of knowledge that has been gathered about child development to understand why folks are so against spanking these days.
It's because ideas of authority and obedience are like ideas about the police. If people don't trust the police, they take the law into their own hands. If kids don't trust their parents, they don't really have an authority figure to obey.
Establish your authority and be respected, and then whatever kind of discipline you do will be trusted. I trusted my parents even though they were old fashioned spankers, right up until they got religious. Then it was no longer about my wellbeing or safety, and became all about their authority.
If it's all about authority, then you can beat them until they're blue and it will do nothing. It will in fact, just make things worse.
So a kid has to know that you wouldn't strike them without a very good reason. Then when or if you have to, they'll know it was for a good reason.
children already are able to get away with more but it has nothing to do with spanking or not spanking a child. it has to do with setting and reinforcing boundaries, giving the child reasonable explanations for boundaries, having natural consequences that the child understands. it kind of defeats the purpose of teaching a child not to hit his sister when you hit him back.
and also not giving the child so many material possessions. when a child has everything they want at a young age, they grow up thinking they are entititled to whatever they want.
I think that its ok to an extent ... an the perticular problem because abuseing that power can bring up bigger problems like acting out agenst you.... but i have a queshtion what age whould it stop like how old whould you be bfor the hitting your child gets old
First of all, you need to disqualify all people who do not have kids as well as people who do not have kids over the age of 1.
You also need to define spanking for the people who somehow misinterpret the term so much they say it is NOT okay.
Oh and for the record, there are cases of kids who were told they were special and wonderful growing older and becoming trouble--I have met them!
Not answering this in enough grief for my ugly chick post.
But I haven't got a kid. So its irrelevant. Nah seriously no one needs to be hit. Take away their privileges.
Ok, here I go ... I believe that spanking a child as a form of discipline is fine as long as it isn't done abusively. There are certain boundaries that should be drawn when choosing this form of discipline. First, determining when the discipline is to be administered ... for what type of offense ... and how it is to be administered is key to proper spanking. For instance, a child rebels against a parents verbally administered discipline more than three times and is told that if he/she doesn't obey they will receive a spanking. They are told why they are being spanked and asked to explain why this discipline is now being administered. Usually, if a parent has explained the boundaries correctly a child understands exactly why they are receiving a spanking. Determine how a spanking is to be administered .. a spanking should never occur with a hand ... the hands are for comforting and showing love. A paddle of some kind should be used. A spanking should never be done in front of other people but privately to allow for both the parent and child to talk, cry and come to a place of healing, repentance and forgiveness. A spanking should never be done in the heat of the moment or in anger but after a calm discussion between the child and the parent has occurred. After administering a spanking, a parent should hold the child, talk with them and discuss why it was done, allowing them to process and cry or vent. In the end, both child and parent will come to a place of peace and understanding ... the result being a loving relationship with healthy boundaries.
This is the common way people view spanking, but it's problematic for a couple of reasons.
If you have time to organize a spanking, you have time to think of a punishment that actually addresses the offense. Spanking someone for disobedience says to them that disobedience may have painful consequences, not that lying, stealing, cheating, etc. may have painful consequences.
Nobody outside of prison is going to hit them for telling a lie in most cases. They will however, lose someone's trust, and that's hard to earn back. Take away a privilege that requires that you trust them, and that will get the right message across...that trust is very important.
Second, a weapon can't feel how hard it's hitting someone. Though control with a weapon is a skill someone can learn, your kids are not good guinea pigs for such things. In the 14 years I was getting beat with belts, wires, fly swatters, and the like, my parents never mastered the art.
Your hand can feel how hard it's hitting someone. If it hurts your hand, it's actually hurting their butt too much
I don't believe that corporal punishment is always abuse, just that it's not the most effective method, in my experience with kids. I don't know every kid, and I'm told that some don't feel deterred by anything else. Some don't have much impulse control and don't develop forethought for some reason.
However, even when it does work for a time, one has to consider why it's working, and what it actually does. My brother was spanked like me, and rather than rebelling worse like I did, he became a very well behaved kid...right up until his early 20's.
When nobody was whooping his butt, he didn't know what to do with himself. He ended up going through a late adolescence and getting into trouble because he'd learned very well how to be controlled, but didn't learn how to control himself.
It basically stunted his development, the way my parents did it.
This is why, though I don't judge others harshly for doing what they feel is necessary, I propose that people should be very sure that it is working to produce responsible adults rather than well behaved kids. A person who grows up to be a well behaved child won't stay well behaved when the controls are removed.
I am all for it. I got spanked while I was growing up. Spanked, not beaten. I never got spanked for no reason, I always earned my spanking lol. Spanking was something that scared me while growing up, no one ever wants to be spanked--thus the beauty behind it. Kids will think twice about doing something wrong if they know they are going to face actual consequences afterwords. What's the alternative, timeout? Go stand in the corner for five minutes? Wow, that really teaches kids a lesson.
Timeout is the equivalent of the US's criminal punishment system. Crimes these days get punished with slaps on the wrist, not actual punishment. If crimes were punishable with actual punishment, people would not be so out to do them.
We have to make the punishment severe enough to outweigh the risks of doing something wrong. Kids won't act as bad if they know they will suffer real consequences and criminals will think twice before snatching a purse if they know they will be severely punished.
oh good grief.
many crimes are committed by people whose parents beat them.
spanking is NOT discipline, 'k?
I would love to see it banned.
In no other sphere of life is it ok to assault someone in the name of discipline / keeping their behaviour in check. In most countries, teachers aren't allowed to use corporal punishment and they have 30 more more in a class sometimes.
and how do people get very young children to 'behave'? certainly not by hititng them. people who hit their children (swat, tap, smack, whatever euphemism they use) need to be more patient and find other ways to teach and discipline their children. they think it's ok to hit their child but if a preschool teacher did it, they would be suing them right and left.
Much as I abhor the idea of spanking, I think this is one of those well-meaning but potentially disastrous laws that won't stop real abuse from taking place ('cos abusers are often too cunning to be caught), but will end up being used against parents who are either completely innocent, or just lost their rag one day in Tesco's, gave little Johnny a slap and got reported by someone.
In other words, it's a crap idea. Sorry.
well said EmpressFelicity,
that's how i see it too.
The Laws aren't just for stopping abuse, though it does deter..Laws are there so something can be done about it legally.
There are already laws for stopping child cruelty/abuse. With spanking, there are two possibilities:
1. It's carried out severely enough to warrant the description "cruelty", in which case it's already covered by the law.
2. It consists of - say - a mild slap across the legs or on the hand.
In the case of 2., to have a law against it is just plain stupid. It diverts the police and legal system away from the cases of real cruelty, which is where they SHOULD be concentrating their efforts.
The buttocks has a lot of padding so you can't do much damage unless it is real abuse. However, the legs and hands do not have a lot of padding. The bones can easily be bruised or chipped. Plus the blood veins can burst in the legs, hands and wrists.
The Laws are to protect the children. So would you be upset if someone hit you?
It kills our children's love. And yes, it can scar them.
I agree 100%...I got spanked as a child and it was good for me. People who beat their child need to go to jail, but much like training a dog, a light swat which has no ability to actually injure them is a great corrective measure/ How about people stop trying to force their beliefs on others...wouldnt that be a novel concept...
How are you defining 'beating'? People are talking about a quick slap on the backside to snap them out of bad behaviour, but there's a huge gulf between that and causing serious injury.
Are we calling an old fashioned "spanking" - over Dad's knee, designed to cause pain and drive the message home that they did the wrong thing ... that it's a beating & therefore wrong, or that it's ok?
That, 'wait until your father gets home', spanking as a punishment (not a quick corrective measure in the moment) - are you saying that's perfectly ok? B/c that still happens a lot and won't necessarily show up as bruising.
Laws are already in place that define what "Child abuse" or "endangerment" are as well as alternative methods for disciplining a child. I think we should try to do a better job on educating parents and potential parents as to what is appropriate and what is dangerous and less time trying to dictate moral PREFERENCE.
That means you see the old fashioned spanking as ok.
There's a grey area - obvious injury is one thing (if a bone is broken or there's significant bruising, teachers and hospitals have to report that stuff) but to me spanking is what's still allowable under the law but is in excess of a quick corrective smack, as has been used as an example here a lot.
I'm saying I think spanking should be illegal as well as more obvious abuse. It's not about getting into anyone's morals or trying to dictate what they believe. It's just about child welfare.
That is correct. I think that old-fashioned spanking is fine. Caveat is that it is not in excess...there is obviously a line that needs to be drawn and the line is when bruising occurs, skin or bones are broken etc. OR when such evidence needs to be covered up.
The same goes for sending the child to bed without dinner...there is a line...you can not deprive a child of food to the point of injuring them, but do you think we should make a law that you can not send a child to bed without dinner as well?
Old fashion spanking is fine ????
Send a kid to bed without dinner is OK ????
Are you that sado with your kids ?
Don't have any...but my mom did that to me and my siblings and we turned out pretty well. We did't get beat but we got our spankings when we were really bad and NOTHING makes you think about what you have done wrong like being sent to bed at 6PM with no food.
I got the same treatment,which I think is hateful. So I never spank my daughter, and I never send her to bed without food. and she become a better person than myself.
To repeat our parent's flaws in our siblings is a very big error !
You're statement seems to suggest that the kids we have today are better. I tend to not think so. You know, people used to accept responsibility for their actions back in the old days. Nowadays its nobody's fault but everyone else's fault when something goes wrong. No one is willing to look at themeselves...
Again its this touchy-feely world we've become. I think we've lost core values and maybe because so many AREN'T spanking, is why its true.
I didn't say the kids today are better. I said mine was.
I gave her an education. Which can be done without spanking.
Parents nowadays don't educate their kids at all.
being sent to bed without dinner i think is plain WRONG.... NEVER EVER EVER deny a child FOOD!!! i dont care what they did being sent to bed without food should NEVER happen to a child that needs food.... time outs being grounded a smack on the hand are all ways of dealing with a child.. but to deny them nourishment is CRAP...teach them a lesson in other ways maybe perhaps send them to work talk calmly about what they had done... children are people to and they are not stupid and they DO listen iof u talk to them and stop treating them like they are stupid you will be amazed how much they are eager just to TALK with you.. i have a 4 year old son and when he acts up 90 percent of the time all I have to do is sit down next to him and tell him to look at me and then I talk to him with respect and he listens!! imagine that.... on the other hand my sisters son has learned some terrible behavior from his day care ie trying to bite another kids ear off punching kids in the face ripping hair out that literally leaves a bald spot... reasoning with him does NOT work.... neither do time outs... hes the scream in your face it you kicks you and trys to hit you type of kid and hes is only 3 years old...i believe he is acting out but his behavior is still uncalled for... my sis has to literally hold him in the corner to make him do his punishment of a 5 min standing because he is extremely stubborn and will NOT do what hes told... my sisters fault i believe because she taught him from the time he can crawl how to get his way by not grabbing a hold of teaching him that he wont always get his way... now she is suffering the consequences because she didnt teach him from in the beginning and now he knows he can get away with it... when he is with me hes usually pretty good but the minute she walks in the door all hell breaks loose and you would think he was psychotic....he goes from being sweet to screaming his head off about EVERYTHING and most the time nothing at all just so scream and throw a fit.. seems like it has evolved into some sort of game to him..the more he screams and acts up the more stressed my sis gets and by the looks of it he is getting exactly what he wants..attention if even in a bad way. attention to kids is a must doesnt matter if its bad or good. do i think he needs to be spanked? yes at times for certain things because he either needs that or boot camp. his tantrums are OVERLY done and harmful to others partly because he got spoiled and two because he is craving attention..he is having a difficult time understanding that we will not ALWAYS get our way the minute u tell him no or you cant have something at this time, again all hell breaks loose and he doesnt stop.... its madness and i feel bad for my sister sort of but i also blame her for raising him to be this way.. it isnt fair to him.. parenting isnt rocket science... you talk to your kids and they will listen but you have to grasp this at a very young age with them sort of like being 2 steps ahead of them always...
and the golden rule of remembering to be KIND but FIRM. holding them accountable for their actions in a proper way.. some people i think only resort to spanking and then there are those who dont at all... personally i think if u discipline appropriately as in not beating your child and you do a slight smack right on the butt cheek is ok as long as the punishment fits. more so then not i usually use time outs because they can still think about what they done whether this type is used or a slight spank... again talking i have found to be most effective rather that just barking orders. you get respect if u give respect and that goes for children to.
Ok - that's good to have clarified. So we're not talking about a light tap at the supermarket when a child is reaching for something they've already been told not to touch. We're talking about a proper butt-reddening spanking.
I don't have many opinions about not getting dinner. Obviously not providing sufficient food is neglect. A lot of kids do go without breakfast and even lunch, so I don't mean to minimise it as a concern, but the odd missed meal as a consequence of bad behaviour is not something I'd be worried about.
I think that most of us have relatively similar beliefs as far as what is appropriate and where the line is. We just have our own style and preferences. The real issue, and what the OP stated was the imposition of a law that would decide for us what was appropriate and what was not and that is what I have an issue with. There is a line that can not be crossed where the child is in danger...on the other side of that line the parents of the child have the RIGHT to decide what they will and will not allow and do.
Just as I would not impose my belief that a spanking is ok on another parent, even if I think their child is out of control, I don't want someone else trying to do that to me.
i really doubt someone is going to get "reported" for "giving Johnny a little slap". anyone can tell the difference between that and abuse.
i do have a question though:
why do people get hauled off to jail for "assault" when they just shove their spouse, say, but parents can hit their kids and that is not considered "assault"? seems kind of weird.
The women's rights lobbies have more money than the childrens' rights ones.
If children's rights issues were taken as seriously, then the kids would get to help decide if their parents were allowed to get divorced. If the kids were against it, the parents would have to pass some kind of counseling program before they could split up.
That is an interesting idea, and I believe it is not without merit. Could it work?
My view - striking someone with the intention of inflicting pain sounds like assault, regardless of the relationship.
Violence begets violence and we have a bigger problem with physical abuse of children than we do with permissiveness. There are many other ways to shape behavior without continuing the cycle of physical abuse, which leads to violent crime.
Just my opinion. Thanks.
sorry that is happening
i hope your son and you can find a way to heal from that.
i think the problem is, too many parents consider "spanking" as a form of disciplne, and fail to consider other ways to teach and discipline their children.
I would also love to see this banned. My childrens father, who abuses woman now abuses my children and my son who is ADHD now has a violent tember...
Yeah, keep giving government more and more power over your life, smart people, hands down....
OMG get off the horse... are you going to bitch about the FDA next? Maybe the government should stop worrying about crimes? Dude, are you upset when they arrest someone for murder or robbery? That is government getting into your life. Or when your road is plowed or your bridge is repaired? Seriously? You are going to use a thread on spanking to assert this is more Big Brother getting into our lives? Why do I get the feeling you could be pro death penalty, anti-abortion and against the legalization of pot?
Ok maybe the law should read anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime or domestic violence cannot hit there children. When my son returns from his fathers home and is flipping out, there are times I had to restrain him but, I refuse to hit him at all. When he calms down and decides to talk he almost always talks about his father hitting him or his father fighting with his new wife.
I would seriously think about what you can legally do about your sons father being able to see his son.. what is happening to your son is NOT ok by any means... he is going to get a horrible idea of what becoming an adult will be like from this experience.... i would suggest that you make his father take anger management classes and if he refuses then handle it legally somehow... this poor boy is completely freaked out and confused right now and I cant even imagine how hes feeling inside..
Spank does NOT equate to abuse!
It is a simple way to define boundaries. Not ALL children "need" it, (spank), as many are easy to raise/train.
The method used to spank, needs to be clearly defined, and the manner, and attitude in which is administered also must be clear. There are multiple thousands of adults walking the Earth today, who, though they were spanked, are not violent. It is equally true, that many adults that were never spanked turned out to be antisocial/violent and abusive.
No ONE law will ever fix the problem. That's my Op.
abuse occurs when you beat the crap out of your kid. anyone can tell the difference.
but why is hitting even an option? even "just a light tap or swat or smack"?
"easy to train"? any child can be taught to behave themselves. they don't all come out as raving little monsters. you have to treat your children with love as soon as they come out of your body and learn to speak their language. no one goes around hitting infants but as soon as they start walking it suddenly becomes ok to start striking them?
why is it ok for mom or dad to strike their children but not ok for a teacher or day care worker, hmmm?
Im not saying its wrong for any children to be spanked. Just certain parents and some children. I think it does sever harm to kids with ADHD.
I think spank does equal abuse.
I know it's still the norm and that the people who do it certainly don't see themselves as doing the wrong thing(in most cases they probably feel it's the best thing for the child) but that doesn't make it right.
People will say that kids who aren't spanked grow up to be violent or else those that were spanked will grow up to inflict violence on others ... I just think it's not justifiable regardless of either argument.
Even kids who are horribly abused by anyone's definition will often grow up and defend their parents' actions. It's a cycle.
I feel use of physical force is the last resort after all else has failed. Usually communication solves the problem, or silent treatment does. Rarely however a good spanking may be in order if they have been intentionally naughty when well aware of the consequences.
the government needs to keep it's nose out of peoples business.
if it weren't for the lax laws they passed for pampering criminals we wouldn't have the crime problem we have now because kids and adults know that they can do what they want and good ole mommy and daddy or someone else will pay the price. either because they didn't "dicipline enough or they "beat" their kids.
I'm so sick of hearing the pleas" this person was beat as a child and couldn't help what he/she did. Baloney!. Get rid of the whiney a**** lawyers and let the People judge the crime and set the punishment. Oh, wait we do that already in the court system, so who's to blame for the crime?
Spanking is not beating. But this is an age old argument that will never be agreed upon.
I'm off my soap box now.
I agree that spanking isn't the same as beating - I just don't care. Neither is ok.
I spanked my kids and my oldest is going into the POLICE ACADEMY.
My 26 yr old son was spanked - not beaten or abused - and he is well adjusted, clearly understands right and wrong. Best yet, he has the idea of consequences and how they apply. My son is also going into criminal justice work. Holly
Hmmm.. I find that interesting. The police often have to use violence in order to stop it. I'm against all forms of violence and abuse.
The only person or people who can stop it...are those who are engaging in abusive and violent acts in the first place.
The only person or people who can stop it..are those who engage in abusive, violent acts in the first place. Hope that helped answer your question.
I think most of us were probably spanked. Noone really used to question it much. Glad to hear your son is doing well. Congrats
Assault is assault no matter who is involved. There are laws against it and they should be enforced.
The idea of indoctrinating children that "telling" on their parents is OK is wrong.
Now if a child is being assaulted I hope that child will tell someone and that the legal system takes over where I would draw the line is allowing government officials to interrogate the children about the activities of the parents without knowledge and/or consent from the parents.
This is not happening that I know of I am not saying that it is but some ideologies creep up on us incrementally.
if spanking is ok, howcome no one ever says "I hit my kids"?
it's always "I spank my kids".
In my opinion, spanking is completely unnecessary. Everyone has currency, and children are no exception. If you want your kids to behave, figure out what they would hate NOT to have, and use it as punishment. I guarantee you will have children who are well-behaved, and not only that, children who will learn to appreciate what they have. If you are a parent who can follow through and be consistent in sticking to your guns, you will never have to spank in order to make your kids 'behave'.
For example, today my daughters invited over some friends for the afternoon. This morning, they would not clean up their rooms, were fighting, etc. I told them firmly that if they continued, their friends would not be coming. It worked.
At Christmas, the girls were being ungracious about a gift they had received, and they were also once again fighting. I told them that if they didn't quit, their presents would be going in the garbage. and i meant it. It worked.
maybe I sound like a mean mommy, but my kids are well-behaved, I can bring them anywhere, they are liked by other parents and kids, and I have never had to raise a hand to them. of course there are times when you feel like you could lose it, but the currency punishment is very effective and I have stuck with it.
BUT, the currency must be something imminent. Not something in the future, like a trip to Disney. I challenge other parents who are struggling with their kids to try this and see what happens. I would also be interested in hearing some of theparents stories out there of what they do with their children and their methods of discipline.
and just to add on here, I was spanked as a child. I was well-behaved, but I think it was out of fear of being hit. My mother has since apologized to us for spanking us. She knows that the reason she spanked was due to her own frustration and stress and anger and she often took it out on us which is the danger of spanking. I wouldn't condone it although I don't think that I am worse for having being spanked, and I love my mother dearly and we are very close. I believe I learned from that childhood experience and that lesson has been important to me and to the way I raise my children today.
I don't see why 'beating' keeps being brought into the discussion? Surely if OP's the question was, "is it ok to beat your child?" everyone would answer "no".
I don't confuse a slap on the backside with an open palm with a severe thrashing with an electrical cord (it happens..), I just think even the slap is wrong.
And I'm not accusing parents who spank of being monsters or anything, I just think it's time we found other ways and ruled physical punishment out.
Adults do a whole lot worse things than children. Yet none of them would like to be spanked for it.
to me it is a matter of discipline, and dependent upon severity of the thing done wrong.
spanking, and spanking only (not any other kind of physical violence) is to be the last resort, and it is only for a certain age range.
true spanking can only be done with the correct attitude by the parent (no lost temper reaction, no anger, etc...but with focused intent of reiterating the problem [the child acted out] and the consequence [the spanking]...and that the spanking always includes
that sequence of communication between parent and child)
The main thing children need to learn is that there are consequences for their actions. It is the parents responsibility to teach them that.
The child will be the one hurt later in life if they were not taught by example, appropriate and immediate consequences for their misdeeds
But then we would have to say that a spouse who only slaps his wife is not worth the time of the police either.
If it means that police resources are diverted away from some other wife who's actually been severely beaten...
My point is that there is only so much that legislation can do to improve people's lives. If you have too *much* legislation, you actually end up with unintended consequences, such as innocent people being reported (e.g. by malicious neighbours) and resources being diverted away from more serious offences, not to mention ever more state intrusion into everyone's lives.
Like I said, I don't like spanking either. But for goodness sake, get a sense of proportion.
I don't think I'm being excessive about it - just would be nice to have a formal protection of the child's rights in place. What penalties apply or how it's policed is something else.
By not having it legislated against, it's almost the same as sanctioning the behaviour. We took it out of schools and if a teacher hit a child, there would be very serious consequences - their job would be gone in an instant and then there could be a criminal conviction for assault.
I don't know what the police currently do to prioritise, but slapping a wife is assault and is def illegal.
Are people genuinely worried about false accusations? You could already claim to have seen abuse or whatever, broadening the scope to all corporal punishment shouldn't make that much difference - should it?
Physical force is part of the reality of living on this earth.
If you fail to teach your children that, then you fail to teach them to survive on this planet.
Children must be made aware that some actions could have physically painful or damaging consequences.
If you do not wish to teach your children this, life will teach them, and not nearly as mercifully as a swat on the behind.
If you do not ever spank your kids, you will have to be willing to let them be electrocuted, fall out of open windows, and be bitten by dogs or other animals.
I'd personally rather spank my kid if it's needed, than to have them get their face chewed off while I'm trying to reason with them.
I'm sorry, but what a ridiculous statement! I have three children of my own, and three step children, and have not ever spanked any of them. And yet, none of them have fallen out of a window, or been electrocuted. One has had a dog snap at them, but seriously, how many children make it to adulthood without being snapped at by a dog at least once in their lives?
If people think that the only way to teach or discipline a child is by violence, then our society has a very big problem and we need to address that.
What good is spanking a child who is about to fall out a window? Wouldn't that just help push them out? Would it not be better to pull the child away from the window? Would it not be better to childproof your house, and in the meantime, supervise your children when young, and teach them about the dangers?
This is what we do, and it is working. Of COURSE we are not willing for our children to be hurt! And of COURSE you don't reason with them during the middle of them doing something dangerous. You teach them during day to day life, if they do put themselves in danger, you remove them from the danger, and then talk about it afterward. Punish them in a non violent way if a punishment is appropriate to the situation.
1. We had just moved into the apartment, and I didn't think she was strong enough to open the window. It's a huge old sliding window.
2. We live in Israel where the safety regulations are not the same as the U.S. So it had no bars and not even a real latch, just its own weight, which should have been enough.
The owner raised all his kids in that apartment and none of them could open that window until they were well old enough to know how high they were from the ground. My daughter is very strong.
3. I challenge anyone to think clearly rather than react instinctively in that kind of situation. Anyone who doesn't grab the kid hard enough to hurt them at all, or smack them on the butt or shake them in the slightest, and does it perfectly without hurting the kid in any way, I will buy a beer if I am ever in your town, or you ever visit Haifa.
...cause you are obviously an avatar of Vishnu or something.
...or maybe a fireman. I don't know, but you'd deserve a beer.
I am glad that there may be perfect people out there who always do everything right, but I am not one of them. If that means I deserve to be punched in the face or go to jail then oh well. Maybe I am a monster who needs to be taken out back and shot.
Webmatron, I could be wrong, but I would be very surprised if anyone had a problem with a parent or carer who accidently hurt their child by pulling them out of harm's way.
90% of the time I have pulled one of my children away from a dangerous situation, they have not been hurt. 10% of the time, they have been hurt, by accident. I have always apologised for hurting them, but explained why I grabbed them and pulled them quickly out of harm's way.
When someone pulls a child out of harm's way, the INTENTION is to prevent harm, not cause it. If it saves the kids's life, then accidently hurting a child's arm is a trade-off, and I'd be surprised if anyone had a problem with that.
I have also hurt my children by accident in other ways, by tripping over, or turning around and knocking them over when I didn't know they were standing behind me. So for me, if my child gets hurt by accident if I am pulling them out of harm's way, I see it in much the same way as those types of accidents.
I really dislike how, when someone states that they don't hit their child, people make snide remarks such as, 'I'm glad you're perfect'. Just because I don't hit my children, doesn't mean I've done everything right as a parent. I have made mistakes like anyone else, and am not claiming otherwise.
Well, since you don't live inside the kid's body you don't actually know what percentage of the time you have caused them some pain by pulling them out of harm's way.
That you didn't swat them on the behind is your call, but it doesn't make someone who does, to prevent them from repeating the behavior, an abuser. A smack on the behind because your teamate made a goal is not abuse. A smack on the behind because you don't want the kid to think jumping out of windows is okay is not abuse...and the smack she got on the behind was controlled and less intense than any smack I ever got in soccer or martial arts class.
I resent being called an abuser for saving my daughter's life and deterring her from repeating a potentially fatal action with the means that were expedient and effective.
...and I do think people who nitpick over that kind of thing are perfectionists who are out of touch with reality.
What works for you in your situation doesn't work for everyone. Ban poverty first.
Excuse me, but please show me WHERE I described you as an abuser???
The truth is, I didn't. In fact, I started joining this discussion stating that as long as people aren't abusing their kids, then I respect their right to spank if that is what they choose. THEN, I joined in on a debate about why *I* choose not to hit my children.
And I'm sorry, but considering my children are smart enough to be able to tell me when they are in pain, yes I can make the call as to how much my pulling a child out of harm's way has hurt them.
Let's get something straight: I don't believe a swat on the behind is abuse. However, I personally disagree strongly with that method and I refuse to use that method, because I personally feel it is wrong.
I'm not sure why you would state that a smack on the butt by a teammate for making a goal is not abuse? Please don't insult our intelligence by stating the bleedin' obvious. We're all able to make that distinction, and certainly, I have seen no one suggest such a ridiculous thing.
Ok, what am I scrolling back to look at? Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote to show me?
Deborah Sexton's posts were the worst of them. Others echoed similar views.
I don't have a problem with someone calling my actions non ideal and, in principle, having a non violent policy when it comes to their kids. It's just that I have been in situations a few times where a smack on the behind prevented a skull on the pavement or similar disasters. If you haven't, you're lucky and maybe you have kids with a level of sensitivity that your disapproval or yelling is enough...but I don't.
If you were raising my daughter with my and her dad's genes, I seriously doubt you could do better and she survive past elementary school.
She's had tantrums so legendary that others have been hurt trying to restrain her...but she had these fake tantrums years after she stopped having them at home. She manipulated her teachers by playing dumb basically.
If your kids were pretending to be mentally ill to get extra privileges in school, at 6 years old, you'd probably see things very differently.
Well, if others have stated things like that, I must eat my words, lol. However, that does not reflect my feelings on the subject.
And believe me, I can relate to what you are saying about kids with challenging behaviour. My three year old son is very full-on! He thrives on doing potentially dangerous things, is stronger than me and is somewhat of a daredevil.
One thing we've found AMAZINGLY useful for him, is to put him on fish oil capsules. He still has his moments of course, but it definitely keeps his explosive personality to a safer, more manageable level, lol.
Are we allowed to post links in here? (I only joined yesterday, and don't wish to step on toes) If we are allowed, I could post a link to our little fish oil story on my blog (not a hub)
I'm glad someone else broached the subject so I wouldn't get accused of shameless self promotion.
My daughter's been *considerably* less moody since we've been on a natural diet. I believe nutritional deficiencies are at the root of many behavior problems.
I'm told that many if not most kids are missing D-3 because of being indoors too much and wearing clothes year round. Darker skinned kids supposedly have it worse, so we're also supplementing now, aside of the natural diet and eating more foods with vitamin D like eggs and tuna.
If you can reach the child to slap, you can just pull them out of harms way. Then obviously you need to do something on the spot to make the point for next time. It doesn't need to be a slap.
We already have laws in place to guard against serious abuse. It's not like you're able to do whatever you like under the current legal situation.
Not having anyone else decide what is allowed under the law means throwing out the legal system and then everyone could decide for themselves. But you'd lose all the good stuff which comes from having a legal system.
Restraining a child is still physical force, and may require more painful methods if they're resisting, than a swat on the hand.
...but okay, know-it-all. When you have kids, don't ever hit them for any reason.
Maybe you'll get lucky, and they won't become violent, malignant narcissists because nobody taught them boundaries.
Neglect is a form of abuse too.
Not hitting doesn't equate with neglect. I haven't heard anyone suggest letting kids roam free and do whatever they like.
If someone's going to get hit by a car, you'd use enough force to pull them out of danger. That's not physical punishment, it's just prevention. Same with the dog scenario - you aren't trying to punish, you just want them out of harms way and then you can think about how to punish - once they're safe.
Now, see this is an example of where your head is at, not where the parent's head is.
You're talking about punish.
I'm talking about deterrent. The idea is to keep the child from going through with the dangerous or potentially fatal behavior, and not do it again in the future.
My head would be at : 'aaaaaaaaaaah - dog' and snatch the child out of the way. It would take me a couple of minutes just to breathe normally.
With younger children the punishment needs to be a deterrent. They're probably (though not necessarily) not repeat offenders yet. They need a message that says don't do it again - I agree with you there.
OK I see, you are a name caller so you would rather hit your child. I have a son and I have never hit him. My parents never hit me either, but when my father said jump, I asked how high. That's because he was able to instill into us, that he is the father and we were to do as he said because he had our best interest at heart.
Not hitting your child is not neglect.
Maybe you should take some parenting classes.
What would you do if you were trying to physically restrain your kid from fighting with another child, and the hit you?
I'm so happy for you that you are so fortunate to not live in a place where a kid would attack your kid, and you would have to keep your kid from ripping their eyeballs out...but I don't live in such a magical land.
I have been in the tough position of having to stop a fight.
Pray you never do.
So I suppose then that teaching kids martial arts should make them more antisocial too then, right?
It's about context. Spanking shouldn't be the whole of discipline, but there is a time and place for it that parents should be mindful of. I was a firm non hitter too until my daughter almost jumped out of a 6th floor window.
Understanding that if she went near that window again, mom was going to beat her butt tided her over until she was old enough to understand that she could die from it.
I have no issues with martial arts ... as long as it's a fair match between peers, I guess. And as long as the child wants to do it & isn't terrified. Sport is good for kids and I'm sure it would keep them fit and agile.
The window thing must have been heart-stopping. I think I'd bolt the windows down, I'd be so freaked out. We have a lot of backyard swimming pools in Australia and every summer kids somehow end up drowning. We have legislation about gates and fencing for pools, and still there are drownings every year. This year has been especially bad.
Fights and attacks in real life are seldom a fair match between peers. It would be negligent for any martial arts instructor to train students only against their equals.
By the same, it would be negligent of a parent to convince a child that nothing could physically harm them.
So in my opinion, spanking should only be done when it is necessary to drive the point home that a certain action could lead to damaging or fatal consequences. This worked very well for me, and has resulted in a teenager who now has no interest in the silly activities most other teens engage in...not because she's having this enforced or being intimidated, but because at the very few times when it was needed, she was taught that some stuff in this world can kill you, and a little suffering (boredom or not having the most exciting social life) now is better than a lot of suffering later (pregnancy, STD's, alcohol related issues).
If you do it when and only when it's needed, with the same care as a martial arts instructor, then the times it is needed are very few and far between.
That said, some kids don't need it at all, or maybe only once in their lives. My step son was only struck once when he was trying to stick something in a light socket. From that point on, all it took was a look from his mom or dad.
My daughter was a bit more stubborn. She's had five "spankings" in her life. Actually three were swats, and two were self defense while physically restraining her.
I think they prevented some antisocial behavior that she might have believed was maybe not okay, but not as bad as it is, if she'd gotten away with it.
"This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you sweetie."
i fail to see the logic in hitting a child hard enough to "teach them a lesson" when you could take steps to lock the window, secure it and make it impossible to fall out of, and supervise your child as well.
no one who "spanks" is answering this question:
WHY IS IT OK FOR MOM AND DAD TO HIT, STRIKE, OR SWAT THEIR CHILD BUT NOT A TEACHER OR DAY-CARE WORKER?
why DON'T they hit children?
how DO they manage them and get them to behave?
trust me, they do manage to make even very small children observe their rules with a lot of creative measures, so why can't mom and dad?
so, if you decide to leave your toddler at a daycare center and they inform you that they will be spanking your child to make sure they behave and "respect" them, would that be ok with you? and if your child learns to fear them after a spanking, that's ok right, because that means they learned something, right?
It's true. In the classroom there's 30 of the little troublemakers ... and teachers have learned to keep order and maintain authority without physical punishment of any kind. They also aren't allowed to emotionally abuse them or ridicule.
Of course some are more skilled than others; but then so are some parents more skilled than others.
i guess they think my question is rhetorical, since they never answer it...
Yeah the teachers in Columbine did a great job in discipline.
Have you ever wondered why are things like that almost always happening in the US and occasionally other Western countries? Don't tell me that you think that teachers and parents are disciplining kids more in other places?
In America, teachers aren't allowed to spank our children.. No one will lay a hand on my son.
You didn't get my point. She was arguing that if teachers were beating kids the stuff in Columbine wouldn't happen. Teachers aren't beating kids in other countries too and stuff like that never happens, so my point was that it is incorrect to claim that beating kids would prevent such things and that it's not happening in other places for different reasons than spanking.
Maybe there are some other reasons for messes like Columbine, that btw happen pretty much only in America...
No, I wasn't arguing that if the *teachers* beat the kids, stuff like that wouldn't happen.
I'm arguing that if the teachers and students didn't emotionally abuse students, and security was taken seriously instead of just "creative discipline", stuff like Columbine wouldn't happen. Stuff like it being easier for a kid to buy crack than a pack of cigarettes wouldn't happen in schools either. Situations like students terrorizing each other wouldn't happen. That happens a lot more often than the Columbines because people are afraid to get tough.
I live in Israel. There are armed guards in my daughter's school, and not just for terrorists. There are also teachers who will step in if students are being harassed and abused. They tried it the American way for awhile, thinking it was more progressive to allow kids to express themselves. Girls started getting raped and coerced to suck guys off. Kids were getting bashed in the head with stones. This was happening, in some cases, with kids who were raised on kibbutzim, who were never ever spanked because that would get you branded as an abuser and kicked out. Well, American style "discipline" stopped, and folks got Israeli again. If some kid gets antisocial, his or her butt gets escorted to the office, if needed, by someone who's trained to do more than a smack on the bum.
Stuff like Columbine happens because bubble heads don't think in realistic terms, and worry so much about the poor little angels that they forget that kids are not angels. They're human beings.
Bla, bla, you're just using some ridiculous examples to try to prove the point that is obviously wrong. Instead of tripping all this gangster-ghetto-war on the streets stuff and getting obsessed with baseball bats and shootings, better focus your energy on positive things, maybe even reading some books. It's no wonder kids are getting aggressive when all their parents talk about is violence.
I grew up in war environment, in my city at one point was estimated to be between 1/2 and 1 million guns, while going to elementary school almost every day somebody would secretly bring a gun or bomb to the school, and just like in every other place unfortunately there were drugs too, yet there was never ever anything like Columbine. Yeah there were shootings, some of my friends and classmates were shot when we were like 16, but it was always as a part of gangs or fights, there was never ever a single case of kids going out of their mind and shooting at people around them. As I told you this stuff happens only in America and it points out to some social problem and not whether kids were spanked.
Btw I have a lot of Israeli friends and we would go out like 1 or 2 times a week and I never heard about armed guards in schools. Sure there are in some, probably in conflict areas, but I don't know if it is everywhere. Also, I highly doubt that spanking kids in school is allowed...
Unfortunately sometimes teachers and students emotionally abuse students everywhere, not just in America. And security is taken much more serious in US than any place I've ever been, and I've been in a lot of places.
You obviously believe that using force can solve, or at least prevent a lot of problems, which in my opinion is totally wrong. Your solution to every problem is 'getting tough' on people. Using fear as motivation is plain and simply wrong.
How would you feel if your daughters husband tomorrow starts 'getting tough' on her? Of course with only the best of intentions, just to 'straighten her up', to 'protect her from all the dangerous of this world', to 'point her in the right direction', 'to make sure that rules are followed in their home', etc...
BTW..My husband was born in Israel. He lived there until he was 15 yrs old. when his parents decided to come to the states. We married when I was 18. He was my first anything. He is a Rabbi and we are both Kabbalists. We teach our child to raise his consciousness.
I don't know what my looks have to do with anything and no one has hit me on my butt..ever. But I am an adult not a child.
Our love is so strong for each other it is spiritual.
Have you actually been in a daycare center?
Most use physical discipline. They don't strike, but they do restrain...a lot.
As far as the window, she pushed it open. At 4 she was about as strong as most 6-7 year olds. I found that out that day, that she takes after her mom.
After that day, we put in a couple of screws, but I am sure that if she wanted to badly enough, she could have unscrewed the screws or somehow jimmied it open. I've seen her do worse, just not to windows after that.
Either way, you can call me a child abuser as much as you'd like, but I don't agree, and neither would the state. If the state decides to brand any and all striking of children abuse, then I'd recommend everybody raise their kids to be independent minors by 16 or much earlier if you can.
If you don't teach them physical boundaries when they're young, they'll teach you why you should have taught it to them when they're older. They'll know they can do whatever they want, including hitting you, and you won't be able to do anything about it.
That might be cute when they're 2, but when they're standing over your bed with a baseball bat at 14...
Neither me, nor any of the people I know that were raised without being beat have ever stood over parents beds with baseball bats. Seriously in which world do you live?
Yes, but you do use passive aggressive shaming language and disrespect people who have been through things that you haven't.
So your parents successfully raised a bubble boy. I hope you and they are proud.
Considering that I grew up in a war environment, lost my dad as a kid and much more, I've probably been through more then you ever will. The fact that you started calling my parents just shows what kind of moron you are.
Now you can go on with your baseball bats gangsta rant, for me this discussion is over.
whoa, whoa...i never called you a child abuser. don't put words in my mouth now. you seem like a cool lady.
and for your information, i have been around lots of day-care centers. my son was in day care from a very young age, so i know all about them firsthand. and i popped in many times unannounced and observed and never once did they ever restrain or hit any child, ever.
so you're saying it's a case of power right? showing them who's bigger and stronger? that works til they're teens, then what?
better to teach them to respect you, not fear you, and respect themselves and their property. if your child has a penchant for standing over you with a baseball bat, i suggest you get rid of any baseball bats. knives too.
and the window? no four-year-old is strong enough to push open a window properly locked and sealed. it's called child-proofing. would you leave your child in a day-care center that had a window improperly sealed? nooooo......
again, you said as you were hitting her you hollered, "Don't you know that can kill you???"
well, i have to ask again, why not pull her away from the window, sit down calmly and say the same thing: "Don't you know that can kill you???"
i doubt that a child that is going to understand "kill", so just drop and egg or something, that oughta be a good object lesson. sorta like Humpty Dumpty
Nothing I say can make it right to you. Just if you're ever in a similar situation, don't stand there and count to ten thinking about what would be the most appropriate response to impending doom, okay?
...and again, this isn't about power, authority, or punishment. It's about some actions having potentially fatal consequences, and them needing to learn that. That is all.
Just round up all the naughty ones and par boil 'em. Then they won't be so bad. It will tenderize their dear little hearts.
This is a most dangerous road that we, as a society, are taking. It is wrong for any government to start mandating how a parent disciplines a child. I have no right to put down a neighbor because he deems it necessary to swat his child on the rear for being unruly. As a parent you have the right to raise your household as you see fit. We, as parents, are deemed the responsibility of raising our children as we seem fit to form them into disciplined, productive and respectable citizens with integrity and loyalty. To go down this road is to degrade the hundreds of thousands of parents in the past who found, in their judgment, to spank and/or even use the belt. What many see as malicious punishment others see as getting a point across. It is wrong to start making judgments against others in such a manner.
In years past families were able to grow and develop with a sense of loyalty and love even with the occasional discipline. Look at the broken nature of many families today. Can we truly say that we have a more proper frame of mind than our ancestors? Not hardly. No, I don't support this type of punishment in schools but we shouldn't dare have the audacity of going in and saying, within a family, you can and can't do this or that in raising your child.
There are vast numbers of people who are emotionally scarred from sexual abuse but finding the same trauma among those disciplined from a swat on the butt cannot be found in similar numbers because it does not exist in such numbers.
Abuse is about intent. Spanking is an effective parenting tool and has been for tens of thousands of years until just very recently. People who think they know the "right" answer to stuff like this and impose their self-righteousness on the rest through the law contribute to the decay of society.
As far as I have been told, Native Americans were appalled at the white man's treatment of children. They never spanked their children. They duncked them in the creek real quick.
Beautiful! See, now that's correction with a little imagination worked in. My wife is Native American. One of the things I've heard was the normal practice of holding one's hand over a child's mouth and nose when he/she begins to cry. The child soon acquires the thought that they will stop breathing if they cry. A little over the top - but effective.
It's not true that whatever goes on at home is your own business. There are already plenty of things you aren't allowed to do to your children, or your spouse or even household pets.
It can't be carte blanche b/c people do some pretty awful things when they think there's no consequence.
I'm not saying spanking is so awful as all that (though still wrong in my book) but you can't say anything goes as long as it happens under your own roof.
I completely agree, however, the general movement is to call for a "blanket" legislation in regards to punishment in general. This is where the danger is. There is a line we need to be more adept in darkening for all to see. When we go down such a road we will, unavoidably, cause much distress and hardship for many parents who meant no harm but have been caught spanking a child.
The following illustrates a very dark side of spanking:
From: THE SEXUAL DANGERS OF SPANKING CHILDREN by Tom Johnson
"It is not disputed that spanking has a sexual side as well as a punitive side. Indeed, our popular culture and media suggest there is wide awareness of this fact, however unspoken. Society has nonetheless failed to squarely address the serious implications of spanking’s punitive/sexual duality.
Considering the power of sex to corrupt, along with the coercive nature of punishment, we should be alarmed at the very idea of discipline through spanking – all the more so when it is directed at a group of people as powerless, fragile and unsuspecting as children."
There are many articles online about the effect that spanking has on a child's future sexual development. It's scarey stuff.
Spanking a child is a good way to show authority to that child, and to show that if it hurts to do it when Mom and Dad caught you, that it'll be worse if it escalates and that they could get into worse trouble. I was a spanked child and I am not "damaged" emotionally, and plan on using the spanking system with my children one day if they need it.
The reason people smack their kids is usually just a continuation of the abuse they received as kids.
Why would it ever be OK to assault a child?
I was beaten as a child, but decided that the cycle stops with me.
I have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and have not considered hitting any of them!
What a gutless act it is to hit a child because we do not have the courage to restrain ourselves.
It took years of therapy for me to overcome being hit by my dad.
How about the years of therapy it would take to overcome their being assaulted by their cellmate?
Sometimes, especially when it's to stop violence, some violence has to be used. It's great some people never have those situations, but not everyone in the world lives in such a safe environment.
I'd rather spank my kid when it's called for than have them end up in prison or beat up because they think it's okay to push people, or in the hospital because they don't understand some things can hurt them.
In the military we call it redress. It's a situation where a person needs to be snapped back into a rational position. Stop. Think. Listen. That's what spanking does. It's used as a last resort when a child needs to be snapped back into position.
Stop. Think. Listen. For me its that simple.
The problem is that people are confusing discipline with child abuse. A spanking is not child abuse, its punishment. A beating, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.
It's just like a guy drinking a few beers is not alcohol abuse. But a guy downing a keg a night is definitely abusing alcohol. It is not the alcohol that is the problem, it's the way it is used, or employed that is.
I agree with you 100%
Wow! that's a first
The fastest way to the head is a smack on the butt.
It's a form of assault, but one that is seen as justifiable under certain conditions (that the child suffers no permanent harm, that the intent is to punish / deter in the child's own interests etc). Not sure what the letter of the law actual says.
We do allow assault in our society in different circumstances - military action / wartime might be an example and even some lifesaving efforts require a kind of assault (CPR might leave you bruised and battered - and a little embarrassed, but you'd be alive).
My view is that it's not justifiable as a punishment for children / parenting tool.
When you think about it, it's actually a pretty major concession to be allowed to assault a fellow human being in the name of discipline. The assumption is that it will always be done with the child's interests at heart. That's not always what happens though.
Well, the alternative, as I said before, is to let life do the spanking.
How much are you willing to leave to chance?
I mean, as a lover of Nietzsche, I believe that letting life do the spanking is a legitimate path, if you have the stomach for it.
However, when you walk that road, you best make sure you're prepared. All actions have consequences, and when I was faced with the situation, I couldn't just let my kid fall out of the window. I don't think I could have just let her die or "become stronger" for being paralyzed or otherwise permanently injured.
We're only taking away one tool out of many, you can still assert yourself as the parent - just no spanking.
Take away their things, cancel a much looked forward to event or whatever will make an impact.
As much as I think assaulting a child is just fundamentally wrong, it probably stings them more in the moment to lose a privilege or social event than a physical slap would.
It stings more than a slap to get kicked by a donkey, bitten by a dog, fired by someone they disrespected...
Eventually, a kid has to learn that actions have consequences, and that some of them are painful. If they don't learn it from you, they'll learn it from someone who probably doesn't love them and doesn't have their wellbeing in mind.
You can not spank them, but if they're going to make it in this world, they'll have to learn boundaries somehow. It's just part of life.
Maybe ultimately it is better to just let life teach them...and by the same, we can just stop getting kids immunized, don't ever take antibiotics or get blood transfusions...
I can respect all that, being totally natural.
Just remember that nature can be pretty cruel.
Children are master manipulators and will take advantage of weaknesses any time they get a chance.
It is up to the educators to set rules and to enforce them.
Occasional light spanking is not child abuse is sending a message that not everything goes.
No it is not ok. However saying that slapping kid over butt 2 times is child abuse is over exaggerating.
Personally, I'm against it and my mom never spanked me, but some of my friends were sometimes (rarely though) spanked and none of them think it was some terrible experience. For ex. my ex girlfriend thinks that her mom was right to occasionally spank her and talks about it with laugh.
Where does the line get crossed from discipline to abuse?
How many whacks? What if the welts are red but not bleeding? Is that OK?
What if you can't hit hard enough without a belt or whip? Which is a better choice?
How often should a child be beaten? When do you cease spanking? When the child gets bigger than you? When you're exhausted? When the child begs you to stop?
What's the best way to make your child more violent than the violent world that awaits? Will he really be safer that way?
I'm just wondering where that fine line is. The people who raised me didn't seem to know. My religious school mentors had a problem with it too.
Maybe we all should reread Earnest's hub above. No, this isn't aimed at you. You KNOW the right way to spank. I mean those other parents.
You bring good points, however even though you could argue that everything in life is relative, sometimes there is a clear difference between things.
Yeah beauty of the music is in the eye of the beholder and it is relative weather Mozart's or Beethoven's music is better, but it would be ridiculous to argue that it is relative whether Mozart's music is better than the music I could compose. Similarly equaling a 2 slaps over the butt with serial child molesting is ridiculous.
Where I live and I am sure in most places, the law says a child can be spanked on the butt with your flat hand.
Belts, sticks, switches, red marks, are against the law and considered child abuse. If a person sees or suspects child abuse, they are to report it within 24 hours or become guilty of a crime.
Beating up our children is an abomination.
Question for some folks here - if your 3,4 year old child keeps sticking his fingers in electricity plug wall sockets (not everywhere you have the plugs like in US that are as safe) would you go on explaining him about the dangers of 220V electricity and read him literature on it, because eventually he will understand that it is dangerous or would you slap his hand a couple of times, so that he learns not to do it?
Slapping doesn't always work on toddlers. Some of them will just do it again anyway. You can get special covers to take care of the immediate danger and beyond that I think you need to work out what punishment is going to teach them to do as they're told.
If a really dangerous situation arises and you can't be there to do the smacking, you need to have set it up that your instructions are followed: no questions. A lot of it is about tone of voice, backed by a genuine level of respect.
:: shaking my head ::
There's that punishment thing again.
What about deterrent?
If it's about punishment, for sure it won't work. It has to be done with the mind and in the context of preventing the behavior, not punishment after the fact.
um, you put socket covers all over the house. then when they are older, tell them why they shouldn't, you know, stick forks in them.
There was a news story I read in Australia where (I hope I'm remembering all the details correctly...) a father took his 5 year old daughter to bbq with a bunch of other families.
Somehow she ended up with this money in her hand (or on her somewhere - don't remember) & he of course demanded to know where it had come from. She wouldn't tell him, so he took off his belt and hit her repeatedly.
He was arrested and sentenced - I think the there was a prison sentence as well as some kind of monetary penalty.
She was 5 - barely old enough to go to school. She probably knew that when daddy gets mad, she gets the belt. Why would she tell him she stole if he's going to tan her hide anyway?
The thing was, he was terribly upset at being branded a child abuser b/c he thought he was doing the right thing. I think it's actually unfair to parents not to be clear about the boundaries.
Obviously hitting a child with belt is terrible and him being upset at being branded abuser is pathetic, because he clearly vastly crossed any acceptable boundary (whatever that boundary is). As i said some things are not relative and in no system can what he did be characterized as doing the right thing.
The punishment is the deterrent.
You smack b/c you want the child to associate disobedience with getting a smack. There's a consequence. We're just switching the consequence.
Now I understand why you're against spanking. You don't see the difference between punishment and deterrent approaches, so you're not going to see much difference between physical discipline and abuse.
I'll try to explain: it's like the difference between being trained very well how to defend yourself from an attacker, and being trained to be aware of one's surroundings and what might in a given situation make you vulnerable to attack.
Both are good things to be trained in, but knowing how to mace someone is after the fact. Learning to not be overly vulnerable would have kept you from getting attacked in the first place.
When a kid is doing something potentially harmful or fatal, much noise should be made about it, and if needed, a swat. The kid should be shocked about it and very aware of your distress and that this action could have killed them. You should express that this is dangerous and that they should never ever do it again.
It should not be, "You did XYZ wrong and this is terrible!"
You're not punishing them. You're concerned and trying to keep them from killing themselves.
That isn't "bad boy!" That's, "I don't want you to die!"
So far you have come up with all kinds of ridiculous reasons to justify hitting your child.
Hitting does not cause a child to make it in life.
I can tell you are a person who uses a belt, right?
Nope. My hands are deadly enough weapons.
So if I want to really hurt someone, I can. If I don't, I don't.
If you find my reasons ridiculous, you're welcome to your opinion, but you aren't raising a daughter whose hands are, like her mom's, deadly weapons.
Strong people must be taught personal responsibility, or they become monsters and bullies who do use belts and don't have boundaries.
i never hit my son once.
the kids he knew at school who were bullies were the ones whose parents "spanked" them.
no one messed with my son because he had a lot of confidence, even as a very small boy. it is all in the way you carry yourself.
you said the magic word: boundaries
part of disciplining your child is setting boundaries and limitations, and providing structure for them. and when they cross those boundaries, they know there are consequences. the key is CONSISTENCY. when you say something, mean it and follow through on it.
you don't have to hit!!!
No, *you* didn't have to hit.
I'm sure you did have to do your fair share of restraining though.
I understand what you're saying. I can't agree that a slap is the only way to get that sense of danger across though. They will hear the fear in your voice - which will be that slightly angry & panicked (scared to death) tone that all parents get.
To add a slap might be convenient and even effective in terms of an immediate danger to give that 'hamster' effect (where it gets shocked when it touches something it isn't supposed to until it learns) but it's not the only way and I don't think it's right.
To be honest, if all physical punishment was applied so thoughtfully and with such restraint as you suggest, I would have less of a problem.
What I see the most of is that grey middle ground where it's not going to break them or even leave a bruise but is far in excess of anything reasonable. It's not to teach a toddler not to go near the window b/c of a serious danger, it's because mum's ticked off that the toddler took his shoes off and she's hot and tired and now has to put down the shopping and re-tie shoes etc.
So can't you express your shock and distress with words instead of with belt?
p.s. All your talk about many deadly situations, getting killed, bla, bla sounds like a total b.s. Really what the hell are you talking about?
Who said anything about a belt?
You are the one who's nuts.
I grabbed my kid, and then swatted her on the behind and hollered, "Don't you know that can kill you???"
Your sadomasochistic fantasies have nothing to do with my real life.
why hit, though? don't you think she would understand without hititng her? why use words at all, if hitting is the medium to deliver your message?
Either way, this is one of those issues in which the moralists are going to fire blindly in the face of reality no matter what anyone says.
I'm happy to bear the consequences of my actions. I hope you're happy to bear the consequences of yours.
Of course I am the one who's nut and you are the one who's beating kids. No, wait a second, you are just 'teaching them a lesson' that of course can not be taught in words.
Ou and haven't you just said that you can kill with your hands? Isn't then swatting kids dangerous?
Really woman your whole gangsta-housewife act is ridiculous.
Again, your fantasies have nothing to do with my reality.
By the way, I'm on Facebook, so if you're in need of any verification, there are friends there who've known me all my life, and can vouch for me.
I'm a martial artist (Tae Kwon Do) and Navy veteran.
I've worked a variety of jobs including security/barracks watch for a time in the service. I've been in numerous physical confrontations on and off duty...broken up my fair share of fights as well, and never had the luxury of believing that the worst thing in the world was a swat on the behind.
I have pretty good control, and know how to strike someone without taking their head off, which you would know if you were ever taught anything remotely resembling martial arts.
So you live in a bubble world where nobody hits anyone, and people just talk trash incessantly.
It must be nice.
You may now return to the rock under which you were raised.
If you spank on the butt why do you keep saying strike? Your language shows an abusive personality and I have no doubt you have been in many confrontations. You are teaching your children the same thing, then strike them for being like you.
Yeah, we are all really afraid of your deadly hands. Isn't this what you are saying to us?
Yes, I can tell you are a person in control by all your uncalled for remarks..Grow UP.
Well, you make it sound that way..Your hands are deadly weapons..Right?...Right...That's sad and I feel sorry for your child.
Okay, I get your point. Emotional abuse is your weapon of choice.
She doesn't need your pity. Your distance will do fine.
Women against martial arts are like sheep against vegetarianism.
I don't abuse my child in any way. My husband, my child and I are a close family. You assume because you are an abusive parent that everyone must be abusive in some way also..Wrong..Some people actually love their kids.
I'm not against martial arts, I am against parents who beat up children.
So you think one light swat on the behind is beating someone up?
Has anyone ever smacked you on the behind?
I mean, I can't believe that a hot blonde such as yourself has gone her whole life without ever being smacked on the bum.
Is that abuse too?
I don't have any children, but I was spanked as a child and I was also put in time outs as a child. Let me tell you how the child thinks when put in both situations.
When I was spanked as a child, my immediate thoughts were that I wanted to hurt my parents. After all, they did bad things and I wasn't allowed to hit them across their butt with a belt or even with my hand. The thoughts that followed afterward and the thought that stuck was, "How can I hide this better?"
When I was put in a time out as a child, I was explained to why what I did was wrong and given time to think about why it was wrong. Afterward, I was asked to apologize. My immediate thoughts after this and the thoughts that stuck were, "I'm going to try to be better."
The question is, which outcome would parents rather have? A child who wants revenge and wants to hide things or a child who wants to try to do better?
Communication is key at any age. Even the word "No!" has a better affect than physically punishing your child.
You wouldn't believe the comments I read in the online version of the paper defending him and saying how outrageous it was for him to be punished.
A lot of people think it's ok.
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