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Genbetic Homosexuality -Vs- Evolutionary Biology

  1. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    As I see it. Only one of these things can exist. They are mutually exclusive ideas. If not? Then explain how they are not.

    Cause I don't see it.

    You can have one, or the other, not both.

    I simply ask because I am a humble man. Who would be more than willing to reconcile these two ideas. If possible.

    1... That Evolution rules the biological world.

    2... That an ineffectual and detrimental Gene as a, "Gay Gene", would not have been wiped from the existences by evolution a long time ago.

    Thus making Homo-sexuality a choice, not genetic.

    Now your probrably wondering, "Is this a bait thread?".

    No. It isn't.

    I simply cannot reconcile the idea that homosexuality is not a choice but genetic, against the scientific theories of Evolutionary Biology.

    I have spent hours in another forum. With no intelligent explaination yet to be had.

    So?...

    I figured I would ask our esteemed scientific community, if they could reason this one out for me. (And I mean that. I do respect most all your opinions.)

    Homosexuality is against my religion.

    But?

    If it is a genetic trait, then the homosexual community would have a more valid standing in the eyes of religionists then they do now. And I dare say, the entire world. That is after all the point of argueing it is genetic to begin with? Right?

    So...

    Please. Explain this contridiction to me.

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Has this got something to do with Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez

      1. creepy profile image61
        creepyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        ben affleck and matt damon maybe

        1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
          AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Ah yes. How did I miss that one

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The Bible.

      1. caranoelle profile image84
        caranoelleposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        He asket scientifically.  I think he grasps the religion part BUT - the Bible also claims bowl hair cuts and shell fish are abominations...

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Sure he did. But this is the correct answer. wink

    3. Daniel Carter profile image92
      Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Your line of thinking would also say that *any* mutated or defective gene would also have to "evolve", and therefore correct itself. If it works for one gene, it must work across the board, I believe.

      I know of no scientific evidence to support the thesis you present. However, I may be ignorant of some scientific findings. I believe there is no foundation to what you conclude.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I have asked a ?

        Not prtesented a thesis. lol

    4. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      howcome no one ever asks "is heterosexuality genetic"?

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Your a man or a woman at birth. Unless a defect occurs. So yes. I think that question has been answered, cosette.

        1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
          AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I was a child

      2. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Are you suggesting it is tongue

        1. 0
          cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          well, yeah! big_smile

          1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
            AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            How is it passed on, then?

      3. 0
        zampanoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That is more than sure, cosette...

        1. 0
          cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          haha that avatar cracks me up big_smile

          anyway, in a nutshell, people are born straight not "made" straight, just as gay people are born gay not "made" gay because of circimstances.

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            People are NOT born gay and there is no proof to support your statement.

            It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, to claim that. Because, of the simple fact of how the human race as a whole produces it's offspring.

  2. Dame Scribe profile image61
    Dame Scribeposted 7 years ago

    I don't question paths that others take or choose as that is theirs and nothing to do with me. smile That lifestyle is between them and the *Man Upstairs*. All that matters to me is they are real.

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The question is simply in regards to the scientific aspect of it. Placing both theories at odds with one another is bound to create questions.

      But both are taught in schools as "normal" and "true"... So?...

      My question is just. How?

      Actually I was asked this by my neighbors daughter. She stated she could not understand how both could be in effect, "true?".

      I cannot answer that... so I have asked. In several places and have recieved no answer.

  3. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Why a sexual orientation, that can be genetic or not, is so important to some people?
    After all it's an intimate decision.
    Would I be less human , if I decided to have sex with women ?

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thats not the question... but no you wouldn't be tanty.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think evolutionary biology is concerned in homosexuality. In the end it's not only genetics .It can be a choice.
        So, it's Evolutionary Biology, going to change our minds as well?
        that sounds creepy!

  4. Dame Scribe profile image61
    Dame Scribeposted 7 years ago

    It is a topic my sons are not overly enthused with either but they accept the same answer as mine. I guess it is a curiosity to the young, why do such contradictions exist? but, my own children were not brought up in the church either so maybe makes accepting my answer easier for them. Why worry about something we have no control over? smile

  5. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Well when she asked the teacher to explain. She was told those were matters for the higher grades she would attend. As in?... College?... She is in the 10th grade now.

    IDK?... but she is wondering

    So I figured maybe I could get someone with some scientific credentials to explain how those contradictions were clearified.

    So far, as I have stated. No answers.

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Wouldn't it make more sense to actively seek out scientific sources, rather than ask a shower of forum-posters like us?

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I cannot find a source that clearifies it for her. Same as the teacher. The closest you get is as stated by someone. Oh. It isn't a question for evolutionary biology.

        Well then who do you ask if not an evolutionary biologist about evlutionary biology?

        1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
          AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I just did a five minute Google search and got a bunch of answers

  6. skyfire profile image71
    skyfireposted 7 years ago

    Why not genetic ?

  7. moanalisa profile image61
    moanalisaposted 7 years ago

    Who says it's a "detrimental Gene"? Is not cancer a "detrimental gene", and if so, why was it not wiped out by evolution? So if the "gay gene", as you refer to it, isn't detrimental, then yes, both can coexist. It can exist regardless.

    The real question to me is how people can learn to exist with people of differing views, differing beliefs, different walks of life and still learn to respect and love one another.

  8. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    The point of inter-course is pro-creation. There-fore that gene would be detrimental. No reproduction is possible.

    That is simple math.

    When left to itself a strictly gay tribe would vanish in a generation.

    And that doesn't answer the ? either.

    1. moanalisa profile image61
      moanalisaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That is merely YOUR belief, perhaps rooted in religious beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      What about all the gay men who had children and then realized they were gay after? Or were persuaded to become gay by liberal atheist dolphin haters? lol

      Will their children be gay - or does it skip a generation?

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Then it is a choice?...

        Think of the illogic involved in reproducing gay offspring through genetics of gay parents.... ?

        1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
          AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          If it were genetic it still wouldn't appease those you say it would. All sorts of things are obviously genetic -- lust, anger, jealousy, but that doesn't necessarily excuse them... at least not in the eyes of "God"

        2. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Why are you so concerned anyway? It is OK to be gay. No one here will think any less of you if you come out of the closet. Many are persuaded to deny their true selves by religionists - keep on telling them it is a choice and wrong - I am sure you were told that. Now it is OK - You are amongst friends.

          Not sure you are using the term "illogic" correctly unless you are blind to the homophobic religionists shouting that homosexuality is against their religion.

          Oh wait.......... lol

          1. 60
            We Conservativesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            It's always humorous to find people that say  "It is OK to be gay." but are actually trying to belittle someone by calling them gay, I sure wouldn't want them on my side.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I only ever say it to obviously latent homosexuals.

              So -- you are among friends and can feel free to come out of the closet.

              1. 60
                We Conservativesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Hypocrisy abounds.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Not really. I suggest you look that word up in the dictionary.

                  I have no problem with gay people. You appear to be latently homosexual and homophobic. I will help you with that. Feel free to come out. I will not ridicule you for doing so.

                  1. 0
                    cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    so that's why he's so angry... big_smileyikeslol

                  2. 60
                    We Conservativesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    The word describes you perfectly, how does one appear to be homosexual or homophobic from words on a computer screen? I don't think you really have any answers do you?

    3. 0
      zampanoposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Math says that in spite of homosexuality practices, the species is not at all endangered in regard to its proliferation capacity. Numbers keep growing.
      Homosexuality is a common practice in many species, other primates, some mammals (canidae), birds...
      Unlike stupidity which must be genetic (or genbetic if you prefer), for if it was a voluntary choice... oh my we'd be realy, really mean bastards.

  9. skyfire profile image71
    skyfireposted 7 years ago

    Pleasure ? Urge ?

  10. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    No. That is a natural biological fact. lolol...

  11. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    You know.

    This ? is not about whether it is moral or not. Or a choice or not. It is about. How does one reconcile the percieved obvious contridiction in teching they are both true.

    It is a simple question. I thought. They don't reconcile it, you don't reconcile it... it can't be done.

    unless one or both are not true.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      both are true.
      but as sexual behavior can be a choice too, it's not relevant for EB

    2. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't understand how gravity works. I could do a Google search for five minutes or so and take the time to learn about it, but I am content to trust that gravity is right, and ok both in the sight of God and under the laws of my country. You're right though... if I were in tenth grade someone would probably be demanding I know

    3. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      It takes a long time for a change in evolution. Give it another few hundred thousand years and your wishes will have come true.

      It is only you religionists holding the process back - keep on persuading a few gay men they should really have kids.

      Guess what? They pass the gay gene on.

      It is all your fault is has not already died out as a trait. lol lol

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        This is not an argument mark. I could care less what you or anyone else do. But the question still stands.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I just explained it to you.

          Basically your question was "why hasn't homosexuality died out as a trait?"

          I told you why - 1000s of years of religionists such as yourself persuading people to deny their true selves.

          They then breed and pass the gene on. Simple.

          What did you not understand about that?

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That wasn't the question....

            How can both be. Is the question.

  12. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    But what EB has to do with gays ??
    That sounds like discrimination.
    and as I said before it can be a choice too.
    So I can't think of serious biologists considering gays like a threat for Evolution.
    .

  13. skyfire profile image71
    skyfireposted 7 years ago

    Can you present your sources of biology that says homosexuality is not genetic ?

    By the way, You heard about giraffe ?

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Now you know you cannot prove a negative to begin with. And the question rightly is... "Can you show homosexuality has a genetic cause.

      Please. you do not start by considering the ? answered and then trying to dis-prove it. lol

      1. skyfire profile image71
        skyfireposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        if you can possibly direct me to any biology source that say it is not genetic that will help a ton. Besides reason i gave you about one animal out of lot is because there are many examples which i can give you that shows it is genetic as well. Now can i have your sources please ? I'm sticking with simple question instead of asking too much in this thread, a single credible biology resource will do. now can you please ? or lol ?

  14. prettydarkhorse profile image65
    prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago

    I think we can never know the answer it is case to case basis,

    maybe socialization or gene pool

    Sceientists and even sociologists are not certain about the causes of homosexuality

    how about a boy left in the jungle like Tarzan to survive,

    no socialization at all except with animals

    we dont know whether he will become homosexual or not

    the fact is you live according to the social dimension you are in and by fitting into societies and upbringing too, you learn and do things ascribed by societies only for male or female??

    or you just think and behave because of your gene pool

    What is to be a homosexual? sexual orientation??

    I think there will never be an answer to this one,

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you for an honest answer.

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I actually agree with your logic. I also agree with (and was going to write but didn't, before) Mark that cultural norms have forced gay people to have straight sex for millenia. However, unless these cultural norms stretch back a hell of a long way, then I am not sure that explains homosexuality's origins.

        No matter, an evolutionary biologist CAN explain it. Are you going to ask us about quantum mechanics next?

  15. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Actually. No. But I have heard alot of people brag about evolution and some have stated they have degrees. So I am asking for all opinions. Laymans included.

  16. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    Am I going to be forced to quote Jerry Seinfeld AGAIN

  17. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    So? I shouldn't have declared what I thought about it at the beginning? tyhat would be disingenuous mark.

    My point is clear.

    What is sad, is that this young lady is watching you degrade others as if that answers the ? and makes you smart.

    Man, illogical indeed.

  18. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    There is no proof to prove Evolution biology has anything to do with homosexuality.

    There is also no proof that it stems from genetics.

    It is a sexual preference and a choice.

    However, irrational the choice is, it is still a choice.

    Those who claim that they have felt it since birth, would be speaking an untruth, because a person's sexual preference only comes from experience of both genders, then they make a choice, as to which they prefer.

    How they arrive at their decision? Or what makes them choose those of the same sex is completely unknown and might never be known. smile

    1. 60
      We Conservativesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Logical statement.

    2. kerryg profile image85
      kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That's a new one!

      So you tried both heterosexual and homosexual sex and decided you liked heterosexual sex better?

  19. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    So out of three pages i have one coherant serious response directly to the question asked.

    I could be here a while.

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Why don't you go to some *science* sites??????????????????????????

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Because all this is about Mason's beliefs, I believe !
        lol

        1. TMMason profile image73
          TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Actually it is about a ? posed at school by a tenth grade student.

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I gave you an answer.
            Both are true
            GH & EB
            but as sexual behavior is a choice as well, I don't think is relevant for  EB, unless they decide to change our minds as well.

            1. TMMason profile image73
              TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Okay then. smile

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Unbelievable !!
                I liked the smiley ! smile
                big_smile

    2. kerryg profile image85
      kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I started typing up a long response and then decided just to write a hub. Give me an hour or so and I hope you'll find some food for thought. wink

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry, Kerry - I was typing a response as you posted this. I look forward to the Hub smile

        1. kerryg profile image85
          kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this
  20. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    oh we have two.

    thank you, very much.

  21. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    three for three. thank you cosette.

    Or is that four....

    thank God whatever # it is.

    1. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      hey there TM how ya doin'

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I been good. yourself?

        1. 0
          cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          just foine wink

  22. prettydarkhorse profile image65
    prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago

    it is a gray area actually there are lots of researches conducted to ascertain that it is gene pool by buying the cadaver of homosexuals and then studying it, and some scienctist said that the brain of homosexuals are quite larger, but of course, if that person has a child then he could pass his trait to his child, but how about the child has to live alone without social contact in the outside world,
    will he become homosexual, with our definition?

    I think that genes and socialization has something to do with it, we dont know what percentage is the gene factor et al
    plus the way society defines what homosexuals are, but as I have said it can never be answered becayse there is nothing certain or absolute truth specially on the study of behavior

    will he have a choice? we dont know isnt it?

    Can we raise a homosexual?

  23. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    oh. You all are redeeming my faith in the forums.

    1. skyfire profile image71
      skyfireposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      ROFL.

  24. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    OK. I'll have a go.

    The problem is not whether same-sex attraction can be passed on, because as long as someone with an inclination for same-sex attraction has sex with someone of the opposite sex, then there is no mystery re: it being passed on.

    So, the question would have to be how is it that people with homosexual tendencies had heterosexual sex.

    Of course social pressures including the pressure to get married have existed for millenia, so there is no problem explaining a perpuation over time of this inclination (people were pressured into opposite-sex marriage).

    But presumably homosexual tendencies existed before the development of a complex institution such as marriage.

    None of this is problematic however as long as homosexuality was always in fact BI-sexuality.

    So, the question is really: How come homosexuals are not all bi-sexual?

    And now you are asking how a man could not be attracted to women... which is really not my territory... big_smile

    1. prettydarkhorse profile image65
      prettydarkhorseposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      because the society expects them to be like that?

    2. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      thank you man.

  25. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    All of this is vaguely reminiscent of the Palestinians and how every group under the sun, from Osama bin Laden, to Saddam Hussein, to The Taliban, to the Christian Right, to the Israel Lobby, to North African young men in France who were never within a thousand miles of Palestine, uses them to feed their own agendas.

    Yet, when you see interviews with ACTUAL Palestinians, they usually say: F**ck off and mind your own business -- all of you!

  26. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    How do you explain pheromones bio-chemical interactions and consequences,(reactions, actions, combos etc.), and their existence in the differing genders.

    If not through the fact that sexual preference in some way is established as man with woman. We are in effect two halves that create a whole.

    If not preference, then "normal" combination.

    So that would dictate a "choice" of homosexuality.

    So?

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      In all serious, really, you're now asking questions about endocrinology. What's next: oncology, urology... I mean, this is not some jack-in-a-box field, thousands upon thousands of specialists work on these questions all over the world. We're just a bunch of time-wasters

    2. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      this is why those "gay deprogrammers" think they can just subject someone to an intensive ordeal to "degay" them, since, in their minds, homosexuality is a "choice". this is also why some men look at a beautiful lesbian and say "one night with me, baby, and i'll turn you straight" roll

      my brother is gay, and he knew from a very early age that he was gay. he said he always felt that way from as far back as he could remember. children aren't sexual, so how could it be a choice? if we assume that gay people make a choice to be gay, then we have to assume straight people make a choice to be straight.

      see, me, i knew from an early age that i was straight. even though as i grew, i found myself occasionally attracted to a sexy, scantily-clad female on TV, i never felt i was gay. i love men. i think women are interesting, and every once in a while, i see or meet a woman who stirs sexual feelings in me, so maybe i am bisexual, although i don't think i am. sometimes i meet a woman who really comes onto me like a man does, and i'm all, hmm...what is she seeing in me that makes her think she can flirt with me?

      TM, for clarification, when you say "genetic" do you mean to say that people are born gay? it may not be genes - it may be some other factor that influences whether or not a person is gay, although i do not believe it is a choice.

  27. alexandriaruthk profile image56
    alexandriaruthkposted 7 years ago

    can you actually control your feelings if you like to have sex with same sex, mind over urges or matter?

    if so, you have a choice, the flesh is willing but the mind cant??

    or you just follow what is expected of you, to behave according to what you are expected to do

  28. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    lol
    Me too ? hmm
    lol

  29. Sufidreamer profile image81
    Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago

    This certainly is a cutting-edge area of research and cannot be explained in forum posts - you really are going to have to do a little research on this one. Evolution and sexual selection is much more complex than simply looking at parent to child inheritance. It also involves society as a whole and takes into account social factors. In condensed form:


    Firstly, current knowledge suggests that , whilst genes play a factor in homosexuality, upbringing also plays a part, as does the level of male and female hormones in the mother during pregnancy. It is nature with a little nurture although, as Tantrum said, it may be a choice for some.

    So, to answer your evolutionary point, there are a number of distinct possibilities:

    Possibility 1: The gene for homosexuality confers other advantages, such as higher sperm mobility and better success in attracting mates. Sexuality is rarely an either/or situation and somebody who is ‘more’ homosexual is also more likely to attract females. Therefore, the homosexuality gene can be advantageous, in evolutionary terms. Dominant/recessive genes relationships ensure that it is never a clear cut case - as with most human behaviour, homosexuality is a spectrum.

    Possibility 2: There is the issue of ‘kin survival.’ The passing down of genes is not always limited to direct parent-child transfer (Descendent Kin). Families also pass genes and ,as with many animals (Meerkats, Primates, Golden Moles as just three off the top of my head), families are all involved in raising the children of the dominant pair(Non-Descendent Kin). If homosexuality confers other social advantages, such as negotiating access to resources, then it will persist in a population.

    Possibility 3: If men with a tendency towards homosexual behaviour have children, they are better at nurturing them and their offspring are much more likely to survive. Therefore, the gene continues to be passed down.

    There are other possibilities covered in the links below:

    http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogi … uality.pdf - A useful paper highlighting some of the reasons for homosexuality conferring selection advantages.

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ … /3031.full - An academic paper with an exploration of the reasons why such a trait is passed down.

    http://www.up.ac.za/dspace/bitstream/22 … an_Biology(2006).pdf - A readable paper with information about the vast spectrum of sexual behaviour in animals and humans.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427196/ - Has a lot of mathematics but with an excellent list of resources to follow.

    After all of that, I agree with Tantrum - Personally, I do not give a crap. Live and let live smile

    1. kerryg profile image85
      kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Great post, sufi! I added one of those links to my new hub. smile

      Too bad somebody made up his mind before he asked the question. tongue

      1. Sufidreamer profile image81
        Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks, Kerry - it looks like he had.

        Talking of your Hub, it looks like we caught a live one...smile

  30. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    lol

  31. Len Cannon profile image86
    Len Cannonposted 7 years ago

    I studied the genetics of psychology quite a bit during college for my major.  There's a wide variety of reasons that genes that would not directly encourage the propagation of a species would exist.  This goes beyond homosexuality and includes a number of different issues which you would not fail to address.

    I would be interested in knowing your background in genetics before I go too much further, just because I don't want to get caught up in a science conversation with someone who doesn't care.

  32. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Okay.

    I have done the research peeps. Not only you guys, can read and comprehend. But!!! The research is nothing if not the same as I hear, here.

    So....

    I wanted the forums opinions.

    You don't want to play.... don't.

    But stop questioning where the ? goes.

    It is a valid argument.

    If your saying genetics is involved in homosexuality. Then there are more than just a few questions in regards to the validity of that.

    So what about all the science that shows clearly the factual differences between the genders. And of course the results of the combining of those bodies, and the chems, biology, etc...

    You cannot sweep alot of facts and science under the rug, to fit the theory.

    1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If you're in the mood for research, look up "naturalistic fallacy"

    2. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      well, i don't think anyone here is qualified to give any scientific explanation regarding any of this. all we have are our opinions, based on our own experience.

      "research" for a forum post? who does that. wink

      why do you ask, anyway? someone else posted a thread last week or so asking the same thing. i asked him why he wondered and he never answered...

    3. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Far from sweeping things under the carpet, I just gave you some of the latest research but, obviously, you are the one who chooses to sweep it under the carpet because it does not fit your narrow, predefined view of the world. You asked for the opinions of biologists but you then chose to ignore them.

      Not much point continuing, really hmm

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        you sweep alot under the rug when you state homosexuality is genetic. the proof to support that can only be there if blind to all the other proof. Why does that opffend you. Any honest biologist would tell you that

        1. Sufidreamer profile image81
          Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Again, the sources (peer-reviewed) that I gave showed that it is largely genetic and also reasons why it confers an evolutionary advantage.

          For the record, I was a biologist for many years and I like to think that I am honest wink

          1. TMMason profile image73
            TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            And there are as many who say nay.

            The question is not answered. We do not know.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              So - you ask a question, get an answer from a biologist, do not even read the answers and just revert to this.

              LOLOL

              1. Sufidreamer profile image81
                Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                hehe - I am fully aware that I was wasting my time but, using your favoured tactic, others will read this thread, the provided sources and Kerry's soon-to-be finished Hub big_smile

                The guy is not interested in proof, even when it is served on a plate. Search for 'Gay Gene' in Google Scholar, and there is plenty of 'proof.' Try a normal Google search and it throws up religious sites - that is all the 'proof' he needs smile

                AdsenseStrategies had the best answer, though - we should be way beyond trying to pick the thing apart smile

                Thanks cosette big_smile

                1. TMMason profile image73
                  TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  No proof gay gene exists. None.

                  1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
                    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You don't even need Google scholar. I found a stack of explanations in five minutes using regular Google (of course, it was Google Canada, so maybe a bit more godless and polite than regular Google)

          2. 0
            cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            that's good enough for me! big_smile

  33. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Hypocrisy.
    what a word !

    I can't find the 'hypocrisy' in MK posts.

    I'm looking forward to your next bit of a .... how can I call it ? hmm
    lol

  34. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Hey cosette.

    I do not intend to say anything.

    But I did ask about the "gene" for being Gay. As has been argued for by the gay community, and they claim science supports. (Because science doesn't prove other-weise. I believe someone tried that fable?)

    So, yes.

    A gene that makes you gay from birth is the thing I seek.

    I guess?...

    I believe it is a choice. Yes. One made at a very early age, what would most likely seem like all your life, if it was all you could remember, as far back. Ya know.)

    But a choice. None the less.

    I have heard and read it argued that it is a genetic thing.... but I see no evidence. Nor do I see it being able to exist for mellinia if the world is ruled by Evolutionary Biology, as propounded.

    Also... physiology, biology, and all those other things the others are complaining about being drug into. Are a natural part of us as human. They cannot be dis-counted. Differences and all.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      There are a lot of 3,4 year old children that have homosexual inclinations.
      you can research that in any Med- Psychological site.
      I'm sure at that age you don't even know what homo means

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. So it is bahaviourism. You think? You do that which you like?

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I want to think I do. I'm a grown up!
          but at an early age it can be' behaviourism', if your parents make that choice for you. If not it has to be genetic. there's no other explanation.

    2. 0
      cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      hmm, well, i don't see how it could be a choice. i mean, you know you're straight right, from a very early age? you don't even think about it, you just know you are. you always did. no one wakes up in the morning and goes "hmm, i think i will be gay today".

      1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
        AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I used to like bra ads on TV when I was young. I still remember them. Playtex, Cross-Your-Heart. But then, I am from a liberal, European country....

        1. 0
          cosetteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          'k, i am choosing to be gay today.

          i will let you all know how that pans out. big_smile wink yikes roll

          1. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
            AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            How come Hubpages doesn't have a "likes this" button

    3. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      For most of history, in huge numbers of places, both the view that women were men's property and slavery were close to universal beliefs/institutions.

      This strongly suggests that tendencies to feel this way about the sexes, as well as about "lower classes" or "slave classes" is genetic (how could the Incas and the Chinese have borrowed from each other, for example).

      SO FREAKIN' WHAT.

      The gay community is wrong to use genetics to bolster its arguments, because it is simply OK TO BE GAY. Period. If someone comes along and "proves" it is not genetic, SO WHAT.

      Conversely, suppose someone proves that we inherit genetically our tendencies for sexism or racism (both of which probably ARE inherited genetically). SO WHAT.

      Homosexuality is ok even though it is probably genetic.
      Sexism and racism are wrong even though they are probably genetic.

      In other words, biology is the wrong tool to answer questions about moral philosophy with.

    4. kerryg profile image85
      kerrygposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Did you choose to be heterosexual?

  35. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    The question was posed to see responses to it. Just like you do in a forum.

  36. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    So you cannot behave in a free way and discover something you like. It has to be taught from someone around you? IDK. I don't think so. Learned behavourism can be incidental, or accidental, liking it or not is what counts. isn't it?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOLOLOLO

    2. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      It can be accidental or incidental, but it has to do with your environment.
      If not is genetic.
      Even if you don't like it ,you have to accept it, sometimes. for me that's a proof it's genetic.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't one way or the other it, actually, tanty.

        But! I like to hear all the wriggling, the knowledgable ones spit in the air at me.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          LOLOLOLOL

  37. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Then you should know the difference between the genders are worlds apart.

    There is not now, nor has there ever been, "proof" of a gay gene.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know about that prof.  But I know lots of cases of gay people telling me they couldn't do anything about it. They were born that way.

      1. TMMason profile image73
        TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. And I don't think, and you atheists should agree. That I should believe something without proof that it exists.

        Right?

        1. tantrum profile image61
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I don't believe in anything I'm interested in and  can't prove to be real.

          So, what's your point?

  38. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    This thread is turning me on

  39. Rod Marsden profile image86
    Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago

    It seems to me this gay gene does exist. It also seems to me that there is a psychological component to the question that has nothing to do with it. So there is gay by design and gay by choice out there. To complicate matters further there is gay by how a person was brought up which is another psychological factor. So all up there are three considerations.

    Why in nature should there be a gay gene? I think it is something that is supposed to kick in when there is too strong an imbalance in a population. It arises when there are too many males and not enough females or too many females and not enough males. The psychological components also kick in here as well.

    The idea of a gay gene also comes from the fact that gay behavior isn't just human. There are examples of it in the animal world. Dogs, rabbits, etc.

    Humans can of course go without sex for very long periods of time. Other animals don't have what it takes in terms of brain matter to do so.

    Once the gay gene kicks in it is my thought that it then doesn't matter if the imbalance is settled.

  40. Susana S profile image92
    Susana Sposted 7 years ago

    TMMason - if you don't trust the evidence you have been given here by Sufi, (I don't know why you wouldn't as it's extremely  strong), why not just go and do a bit of research yourself and ask gay or bisexual people whether they feel they were born that way. Every gay or bisexual person I know (including myself) will say that they always were that way. It's not a choice.

    The whole premise of this thread title shows a lack of understanding on the issues of genetics and evolution. There are plenty of genetic characteristics that you might "guess" would be bred out of the population such as a mental illnesses, colic in babies and homosexuality. (Wouldn't it be nice if some could lose their ignorant gene as well?)

    Sufi gives you a very good answer as to why your guesses are incorrect.

    1. TMMason profile image73
      TMMasonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That is inherantly flawed. I explained why earlier, but I will do so again.

      One is basing that they were born gay on the fact that they have remembered being gay all their life. Well, yeah. Thats all you can remember. That is the totality of your life as percieved by you.

      Also. There is no proof that a gay gene exists. None.

      You can produce all the studies and papers you want. I too can produce thousands, millions, disputing that. It is the way it is. When someone states they know something, when they cannot know that something.

      And we CANNOT and DO NOT know.

      1. Daniel Carter profile image92
        Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Then, with all due respect, if we use your own logic, neither we, nor you KNOW one way or the other. There simply isn't enough substantiated evidence one way or the other to arrive at a definitive answer. Hence, there will continue to be those who say it is a choice and those who say it's genetic. And at this point, by your own logic, neither is necessarily wrong. They are differing views that cannot be completely rectified one way or the other.

      2. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That is untrue. Sufi has it right and anyone who wants to know will see that.

        There is all the proof in the world! Sites that were written by obvious god botherers TM who are naturally homophobes.

        So having a homophobic belief. (blatantly obvious to anyone who has read your other threads,) you start yet another religious thread and tie it to another one of your "sins"

        You make me wanna puke! A 5 year old could see through you! lol

  41. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    Thank you for an honest answer rod.

    That is all I wanted to hear. Honest answers in regards to how everyone see the science and how it adds up to them. Which was not what the thread was for.

    but?...

  42. Shadesbreath profile image90
    Shadesbreathposted 7 years ago

    Last thing I read on this suggested that the “gay gene” has nothing to do with reproduction or homosexuality at all, but that it is a gene that gives a zygote a slightly better chance of adhesion to the uterine wall.  The gene has, as a secondary effect, imparting traits linked to homosexuality in men.  The gene is passed on the X-chromosome, so it is not necessary for gay men to produce offspring for the gene to continue. 

    I am not familiar with any theories regarding female homosexuality, which by no means suggests there aren’t any.

  43. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    And I repeat:

    There is: biology, anthropology, psychology

    and there is,

    Social and political philosophy, moral philosophy and ethics.

    A fascist state (perhaps totalitarian states in general) use the first to determine policy (gays are genetic deformities and must wear pink triangles and be exterminated; same for mentally delayed children).

    Open, democratic societies use the second (all people have the freedom to act without interference by Big Government).

    You decide.

  44. AdsenseStrategies profile image73
    AdsenseStrategiesposted 7 years ago

    And tomorrow's topic: Is there a Muslim gene

  45. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    An answers do not constitute proof, or evidence. I have read quite a few good ones. But I guess now it is about what biology knows, and does not.

    And we do not know of any gay gene.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      so this thread is no good
      How can the OP be debated if there's no prof of one of the statements ?
      And anyway, why is homosexuality an issue?
      What if I'm a lesbian ?
      what's that going to do to the world ????

      1. Daniel Carter profile image92
        Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        It'll make a lot of hot women attracted to women very happy.
        smile

  46. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    The post was a question in regards to a young lady's question.

    She had my answer.

    Now she has many more.

    But I don't know what she thinks now.... probrably. "Damn!! should'na asked that!"

    But now she has plenty of reading material and can make up her own mind. Thanks to Linkmaster.

    And I have not stated "I know".

    It was the biologists and his friends that said "they know" or science knows,.

    NOT I.

    hahahaha read the thread I said I believe, that was about it. And I am the only one to say we don't know. So?....

    1. Sufidreamer profile image81
      Sufidreamerposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Here is my original response - note the use of words such as 'suggests' and 'possibility.' smile

  47. TMMason profile image73
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    And of course the threadds good. What else would you being doing right now.

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Love.
      And that's what I'm going to do !
      Bye !!

  48. ChapmanHester profile image79
    ChapmanHesterposted 7 years ago

    First, everything a person does is a choice. Conscious or Subcounscious choice now thats the question.  It isn't necicarily a gene but the path the genes take us.  If you are born to an abusive father and a doting mother, one may be more proned to be homosexual, its psychological, but not necicarily the fault of the person who is deemed homosexual.  Its the common question of nature vs nurture, and right now its a concept scientists struggle with because of the lack of evolutionary usefullness, but when you look at all and I do mean all aspects of an individuals life, there usually is some explaination, but its not something that can be treated, its as though they were ingrained with it from youth without it being intentional.  Just as you are religious, that is how you were brought up, their own psyche was in a sense trained by perceptions and it isn't something that they can wish away.  Some think as you do that it is a curse, but still act on it or deny it.  Some feel guilt and depression from it, and some have even been known to treat it as though they are being raped because before they can remember they were raped or molested and are subconsciously reinacting the event.  There are too many reasons to why someone would be homosexual, but not all are just genes... But roughly yes genes could have some aspects to do with some cases it is not reflective on all homosexual individuals and to be frank, just because someone is one way or the other, it shouldn't matter.  The heart and soul if your religious should be what you look at to determine who they are and if they are good.  Looking at someone because they are different only hurts you from the oppertunity of knowing them.  I personally have known many people of every sexual preference whether in the work place or even one poor girl in church who was judged and ridiculed by her piers in church to the point where even her own sister almost disowned her, and she almost committed suicide over it.  If it was a choice, and I do mean a conscious willfull choice then why would anyone subject themselves to the immediate outsider position they start out in, and go through the psychological and physical abuse, or try so despirately in some cases to change it, normally without success or happiness.

 
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