How much longer will "white" be the majority In america?
Latinos are the fastest growing ethnic group in America.
Once "whites" (anglos) have lost their "majority," what do you think the effect will be on the USA...or will there be no effect?
I want a Browning Automatic Rifle.
I guess you mean another Browning?
I think intermarriages will produce more BROWNS
America the BROWN
No doubt about that.
What are your thoughts and feelings about "intermarriage?"
intermarriages its ok, it is amusing how cultures interact
My Baby is Asian American -- she is brown colored baby -- I am teaching her both values, mine and her daddy
good for you!
Your child will be the better for that as long as it is done with all the love you can give her.
I like your thinking.
Do you think when she goes to school here in the US she'll be fine???
If she has loving parents whom she "respects," of course she will.
She will grow up to become a strong, productive female.
No doubt about it....:-)
ok I mean like for example she is brown skinned and look more Asian than American, I am talking about racial discrimination,
What are your thoughts about "anglos" becoming the minority after having been the majority for so long?
Being half white and half brown, can't really say it bothers me either way.
Are you sure they're "anglos." I thought at one time forty percent of Americans were of German ancestry. And that was before the arrival of gigantic numbers of Italians, Irish, Poles, and so on, and so on...
aren't all the peoples you just named...'whites'???
Angle-land.... England (Angleterre.. ie Angle Terre(Terra, Terrain, etc) in French)
Angles, Saxons and Jutes (and Frisians?), all of whom were ethno-cultural groups in what is now northern Germany, the Netherlands(?) and southern Denmark(?), moved into England approx 1500 years ago. They spoke "Old English" also known as "Anglo-Saxon". And yes, the kingdoms they set up are referred to as Anglo-Saxon kingdoms
Just use the first word I mentioned as becoming the minority: "White."
We all understand "anglo" refers to "English."
My "latino" friends here in Texas refer to me as being an "anglo" and laugh 'cause I sweat when I workout with them. They are used to hot texas weather.
We do the same workout and I get soaked with sweat. They are as dry as a bone.
Buncha good guys! I consider them "family."
The word was used in quotations.
Regardless, "anglo" is used as a general term for white folk by many non-white folk, whether they are of English descent or not.
But all of that is totally irrelevant when you consider the England and the English are descended from the Germans to begin with.
I'm not concerned about skin color.
It's the bringing of other nations' cultures here that I'm concerned about. Many people of a different nationality want to come to the USA and be citizens without giving up their allegiance to the former nation. In America, you can't straddle the fence and still be an American Patriot. I think it's both non-sensical and unAmerican to term one's self "Spanish American" or "Japanese American", etc. The two-part terms are diametrically opposites. If I were to go to another country to live and apply for citizenship, I'd want to "become" one of those people, not still demand that I be called specifically an American. If people want to be proud of their heritage, then why don't they stick TO that heritage?
Brenda, with all due respect, American heritage is largely identified with being an immigrant heritage. In my opinion, if an immigrant turns his or her back completely upon the heritage of his or her native country, he or she risks failing to contribute in their own unique way to American culture.
" I think it's both non-sensical and unAmerican to term one's self "Spanish American" or "Japanese American", etc. The two-part terms are diametrically opposites"
No they are not. "Japanese" would describe an ethnicity and "American" would describe a citizenship. The beauty of America is that one is not necessarily the other.
If you want to talk about dual citizenship that's another kettle of fish altogether.
In any case, mixed-race people are actually the fastest growing demographic in the US today.
Besides, as a Brit living in Canada I have allegiance to both no problem... meaning I am enraged when the British govt does something in my name, and equally so when the Canadian govt does the same... Of course, as the UK does not have a hockey team, some of the "potential" conflict is avoided
I bet you fill that face with all the Chinese food, pizza, Grits and neckbons you can get on your plate! Is there anything really American? Including Apple Pie?
I agree about the apple pie...lol! When the white man came to America they stole it from the Native Americans...They are the first Americans. Along with the British, Irish, Polish, etc. came their countries' cultures. When the African slaves were stolen from their countries, along with them came their respective cultures. We eat food from every country. There is good in all people. We are all supposed to be equal; at least that is how God created us. It is the white man who has made every other race of people feel less than someone else.
The white people are the only race of people that made other races feel inferior? Really?! How ignorant a statement. Racism exists all across the world. Not just white on colored racism either. The Japanese are a good example of this, there is a absolution ton of racism against foreigners and minorities in Japan, especially Korean minorities. When the Japanese invaded China and Korea they went in and slaughtered because they were "inferior" peoples. They did horrible experiments on the people. EVEN THE NAZIS commented on how horrible the Japanese experiments were. EVEN the ones who saw the Jewish extermination camps. Also, do you know anything about slavery in the Middle East. The Muslim conquerors came in and forced people to either convert to Islam and die Or, if they refused, they were forced into slavery.
The white man didn't "steal" America. They conquered it. Just like every group of people throughout the entire history of mankind, they conquered it from people living there already.
Also, Africans weren't just stolen into slavery. Many of them were SOLD into it by their own leaders.
America has a history of oppressing and persecuting persons of color and foreign origin. It is our greatest shame!
*American Indians: hunted to near distinction; still living in desolation and poverty
* Africans: Purchased, enslaved, families torn apart
* Chinese: Mistreated, harassed, hated, yet helped build the American railroads.
* Irish: Hated as immigrants, characterized as drunks and lazy
* Jews: Persecuted since their appearance in the 1800's, forbidden membership in gentile clubs, job
* Catholics: Mistrusted and persecuted because they worshiped differently
America is not just for white people and as long as there is an America, there will be people of color coming here. If we are truly one nation under God, we need to show it by our tolerance for all peoples.
Will the Black Caucus and the Latino Caucus be dissolved?
In lieu of that, will a White Caucus be allowed?
Will a white man be allowed in the Senate because he's white, like Roland Burris got in because he's black?
Will a mixed-race man who looks totally white be allowed to stand on a podium and pretend to be a man for all the people but only advocate for "white rights"?
Will the "race card" turn white?
Many questions there.
I think you're daydreaming if you think it will really be a nation for all the people. I don't think whites have been forgiven for the past, even though this generation had nothing to do with it.
Where'd you get the idea I'm mad because people of color are doing well?
That's simply not true.
I get mad sometimes because many people of color discriminate openly and expect it to be tolerated because they're people of color!
"Something they continue to do"??!!
Who is putting people in bondage in the U.S?
Not white people.
I can think of one, and that's Obama.
He claims to have a dream similar to M.L. King, yet only has a personal agenda to be famous and make his liberal mark upon the U.S.A., riding on the coattails of man (M.L.King) who really DID have a good and valid agenda!\
America's been reduced to a nation under tyranny by a man who keeps playing the race card over and over and over, while even ignoring the fact that he's half white.
Tyranny! You jest!
When has he played the race card?, give me facts. How could you possibly know that?
I can tell you from personal experience. I have been mistreated by people of color simply because i am white. And I was called racist when I fought back!
I just cant rationalize one man ( Obama ) having all that power to terrorize the white race. I do have a few names of those who hold America hostage.....CRACK COCAINE,CRYSTAL METH, MARIJUANA. Most people will purchase this before they will feed there own kids, hell my ex included it into our monthly budget!
American is already a nation of many nations people and tongues. People of color come here, work hard, raise families, start business, send the children to college and live the American dream. Don't hate!
Brenda Durham wrote: "Brenda Durham wrote:
Will the Black Caucus and the Latino Caucus be dissolved?
In lieu of that, will a White Caucus be allowed?"
The Senate is a giant "white caucus." There is only one black Senator--Roland Burris. There have only been four in the history of the Senate--Edward Brooke from Massachusetts, Carol Mosley Braun, Barack Obama and Roland Burris, all Democrats from Illinois.
My feeling is that people like you are why affirmative action was thought to be necessary. You know as well as I do that had there not been affirmative action, there would still be that "GOOD OLE BOY NETWORK" that ran things for so long. What is happening now is that there will be more minorities who might unite and become the majority; is that your fear? I pray that we can all someday stop worrying about color and just accept the good from every culture and live together.
Anglos cannot run everything forever. I don't know why some people think that is how things should be.
And I thought it was going to be about Robert Browning and Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
The white settlers imposed their own culture over that of the Native American peoples...
THANK YOU...MY POINT EXACTLY!! I know of only one race of people who did that! Why should there be worries about the cultures that are being introduced into our society; the African slaves did not have that privilege; did they?
Brenda is right. They killed most of them. That's not the same
Actually, disease killed most of them.
And if you think setting out to turn them into Christians or sending loads to boarding school for assimilation wasn't imposing, I don't think I'll bother to read any more of your posts.
Did it ever occur to you that there was little population at that time? There was plenty of room for a bunch of "immigrants" (now-Americans) in the land of "the Indians", wouldn't you say?
It's a good chance that the Indians weren't "tolerant" of their new neighbors. One can assume they thought all the buffalo and wildlife belonged totally to them. Do you think all those stories about scalping the "white man" were just tall tales?
There was "little population" at that time because 90% of the native population was killed by diseases brought over by Spanish and English settlers before they even knew whites existed.
Leaving aside the question, for the moment, of just how "tolerant" you would be of neighbors who stole your land, slaughtered all the game you relied on for food, infected you with smallpox, and periodically waged war on you, scalping was fairly rare in the Americas until Europeans arrived and put a bounty on the scalps of enemies both Indian and white. After that, it spread like wildfire, both among tribes that had practiced it pre-Columbus and those that had not.
I watched the "COWBOYS AND INDIANS" as we called them when I was a child. I always wondered why the "INDIANS" were so angry. Needless to say, when I grew older I knew why they scalped the white man and killed as many as they could. I wouldn't be to happy if someone came from across the oceans and told me where I could live and hunt.
The English had delusions of grandeur. Now that there is danger of white being outnumbered, panic has set in. I think if the white race would be more fair about things and not try to control EVERYTHING, minorities would not be so angry.
...so you're basing this off of what you watched on TV or in movies? You know that Indians were fighting each other for thousands of years before the white man even came, don't you? I bet they weren't happy when Indians from the next land over came and told them where the live and hunt and kill them if they didn't listen. Also, scalping wasn't actually common at all with Native Americans.
You kept talking about race and how we need to ignore it and get over and yet you complain about white people being in places of power just because they are white. Hypocritical much?
I'm planning on capitalizing on it. I have a project that directly targets both the 47 million Latinos living in the United States as well as the populations of the Caribbean, Central America, South America, and Mexico. Wish me success!
If it's legal, I wish ya good luck. :-)
the date i heard is 2040 but every year that number lessens . im not worried tho i love the latin people.
i dont see it that way quark . i have a buddy at work that is working to become a citizen . he bounces american history questions off me all day . hes much smarter than this fith grader . i gave him a american pride book of mine that i have worn out by reading i wrote in it to him that i would be proud to call him a fellow american
there is cultural adaptation when you migrate to a certain place, you bring in yours and adapt to the prevailing one--both ways
I think that the US is a melting point, talk to your neighbor and ask them where their ancestors came from, anywher in the world specially Europe
as far as culture goes here in the usa we have lost the sense of family . the latins hold family dear . we need that kind of influance i think
show me one white person. there is no such thing as one. white isnt a skin tone
Indeed. How true. Because of where my family comes from in England, I have an excellent chance of having Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Celtic, pre-Celtic and/or Roman ancestry, in any possible combinations... and Romans controlled huge chunks of Africa and the Middle-East, so who knows who was roaming around Roman Britain...
To begin with, a great proportion of "Latinos" are "white"...
It's too bad that the European colonizers don't recognize their own offspring....if one wants to classify more closely between Mestiza/o, Indian, and European that is something else....
Then, if we are discussing Mestiza/o populations, where did the European heritage come from?
Spain, England, France, Germany...etc..
A great many "Latinos" are also of Asian and African descent....people from these continents have been living in "Latin" America for several hundred years.......to come up with some blanket term and then perpetuate it denies the reality...
With this said, From Costa Rica, Honduras, Belize, Cuba, and elsewhere, Europeans have had no problem in the past living as a minority population....any ideation that they somehow became the majority peoples where they set up shop would be inaccurate (no one here has made that claim, but I'm just covering the bases)...
The likes of Samuel Huntington and other xenophobes may try to promote some kind of fear or latent insecurity about peoples with different backgrounds living together, but I have always loved diversity.....more will continue...and I gladly support it.
"Latino" "Hispanic"......these two words are concoctions that should be thrown away like the trash they are.....
This is like using "Caucasian"....nonsense....
If one is from Germany, France, or Britain, one cannot be Caucasian...just like someone from Chiapas did not come from "Hispaniola" or "Latino".....but how many people think about who came up with these words, why, and how they are exercized in our society....
That is my opinion.
Yep, yer right.
Gov't uses those "words" for classification purposes.
There's no real meaning to them.
We are just human animals that evolved in differing parts of this planet. Evolution is controlled by environment.
I'm for the "browning of America."
I'd love to see all people commingle. Racism would disappear.
"Course we'd still be fragmented by religious ignorance and intolerance.
We human animals are in grave danger.
Right on! Anything that brings people closer and reduces divisions is a good thing for everyone.
Until you have to pay for it, then we'll see who's still talking.
Are you saying brown people in your country are exempt from paying taxes? How odd
Sneako, what are the chances of getting the Chinese to pay for everything now. You think they'll hack off a limb from us if we can't pay them back?
We are really going to get it when all this comes due Flightkeeper. We may be forced to allow some payments in technology and research, then it will really hit the fan!
Crikey, and the dems are talking about more spending.
But the Chinese are already paying for everything, and rescuing your failed institutions which they now own majority shares in. Luckily they are very civilized and understand that balance is more important than domination so when the 'balance' of world power changes in the next few years they are likely to be more tolerant of countries who cannot pay their way.
Man, you have really gone the 'everything's great' - type of waiguoren route 100%
Not at all - I just see the good and bad of what happens here and the shit that happens there and see that the chances of things being better can come from a fusion of the two.
No, there are two types of irrational extremes that expats often fall into and you have landed squarely in the "everything is great!" camp. Of the two extremes you have fallen into the more positive one, but it's still not rational.
It's ok, you're not hurting anyone by it, but it is quite apparent.
You clearly have little idea what you are talking about. I guess you didn't see much while you were here, or you didn't socialise with many people other than your own kind. Your ignorant one line comments and your attempt at condescension are typical of one 'type' of people who come here. Your opinions, like your hubs, are empty of content and any depth of thought.
No, I really do know what I'm talking about. You are the one who sounds a little isolated in what you are experiencing there. From our previous discussions it seems you have only seen (or chosen to see, or been allowed to see?) a pretty narrow spectrum, which is fine and seems to make you happy so in that sense it's a good thing I suppose.
I'm sorry you don't like my hubs. Yours are pretty interesting.
Wow, you're being set up for one major disappointment in the future. Glad I won't be there.
If the Chinese are so civilized why do they keep throwing their female babies in the trash?
Why is there a complete 'unbalance' in the male to female children ratio?
Why so many little Emporers? (fat spoiled little boys)
Your preconceived bullshit comments are not even worth a reply.
I must apologise for my earlier post, I should wait until I am on my second coffee before catching up on these threads - you do deserve a reply.
There were a spate of reported incidents when the 'one child' policy was implemented around 25 years ago. Village people are not so educated and they place more weight than most on male children. The practice was more to leave babies by the roadside in more wealthy area or outside doors of childless couples. This is not in any way to defend these issues but balance the over-reporting in the western media at the time. This practice also pretty much died out within a few years because technology made selective abortion possible. This may not be better in total but is better than the alternative.
Why is there a complete 'unbalance' in the male to female children ratio?
This is why there is an 'inbalance' in the current population under 25.
Why so many little Emporers? (fat spoiled little boys)
Because if you have one child then it becomes much more the family focus and that child has a higher stake on it. But China does not have a monopoly on fat spoiled little boys America is world champion at that, and the UK not far behind. There are not so many 'little emporers' as the media would have you think, in my classes, where I have taught around 1500 different students over my time here so far, I can count 'lttle emporers' on the fingers of two hands. There have been a few pretty damn spoiled kids in every class, amounting I guess to around 100, of which half are girls; much the same as in any other country.
Civilization is not about emotive and half true headlines - it is about attitudes of people toward one another. And in this respect they are better at it than many other countries.
Thats ok - we all know you actually know nothing at all and posting up links is one way you avoid showing this. If you want to be taken at all seriously you have to use your own experiences and your own thoughts and form an argument that is not links and smart-ass comments.
By smart-ass comments do you mean comments like:
China Man wrote: "Your preconceived bullshit comments are not even worth a reply."
those kinds of comments???
"Thats ok - we all know you actually know nothing at all and posting up links is one way you avoid showing this"
Providing links to information pertinent to the discussion shows I know nothing? How does that work? I've already given you several instances where my experience directly contradicts what you would have everyone accept on various subjects, and you didn't want to accept that either.
You sure don't make it easy
Google makes finding stuff that has some connection to the subject easy, it can be done in seconds, understanding what you are looking at and giving a reasoned reply takes more than a mouse click or two. Any dimwit can post a link.
But you haven't shown where your supposed experience has shown you anything. You are spouting opinions and one line comments without backing them up with anything except what other people say.
Let's see: I've given you my opinion on various subjects based on my first hand experience and I've provided links to supporting information...
...what exactly are you looking for? (aside from uncritical acceptance of anything you say)
"unsubstantiated"? What substantiation are you looking for? This is just getting ridiculous at this point. Are you really just unable to accept that someone might disagree with you?
"But the Chinese are already paying for everything, and rescuing your failed institutions which they now own majority shares in"
Which institutions would those be?
China is about the same size in sq. mileage as the USA with a population of, what, 1.3 billion?
She is a mountainous nation that does most of her farming on terraces.
She is a very prosperous, industrious nation that if left to itself, would have very hard time feeding it's burgeoning citizenry
She is a nation that aspires to economic "greatness." That "greatness" depends on continuing good relationships with other nations. She needs us all if she is to succeed.
Her people are enjoying a life style and quality of life which was created by a communist gov't learning and utilizing capitalism.
It's doubtful tho that, as man currently exists and functions, he will make it much longer as a viable life form.
Humans need control over their lives if they wish to become a successful species of life. China controls...absolutely!
I can visualize a 1 world gov't controlling it's people in much the same manner china does.
The evolution of mankind is interesting and frightening.
mikel just checked out a few of your hubs. i gota say i liked them . good job
Liberals! Is being stupid like being high all the time?
Why is it okay to hope that whites are wiped out and browned?! If I came on here and claimed it would be wonderful to lighten all the blacks, what would be said? I'd be denounced as a racist! It's quite offensive to know so many hope "my" race gets wiped out, do you really think it's okay to feel this way?
I pray that no race gets wiped out! We could get along if some of us would forget the past and others would stop trying to run EVERYTHING!
Why do you care so much? As others have said there is only one race, the human race.
I think qwark does.
At least that's the impression I got.
But maybe he/she was just taking it for granted that whites will become the minority.
Personally, I find it rather scary that, now that all U.S. citizens have achieved equality, now that (for many years) we've learned our lesson as a nation to not discriminate, us "whites" are coming under scrutiny and often attack because of the color of our skins!
My view on this is that (being white), while it can certainly be irritating being blamed for the sins of our forefathers (and there were many) while we ourselves were not alive in the past, we should have thick skins about it; I mean, that's hardly persecution in my book.
However, I do often think that white people who ARE undergoing real hardship, poor whites for example, truly do not deserve to be lumped in with those who have oppressed.
It's true that white Europeans caused a hell of a lot of damage, but these were generally merchant class and noblemen white Europeans (and North Americans... and South Americans); the poor and working class have always had it rough... and rarely had the chance to do much oppressing, whether they were white or otherwise.
Your racism is showing.
You're gloating about the fact that whites are attacked.
Brenda, when they start calling racism or hate speech its usually a sign of desperation. I couldn't care less if someone calls me a racist, I would actually have to care what they thought about anything for that to affect me, and I don't!
I understand what you mean.
But I for one don't cow down to hateful nonsense. Anyone who wants to slap me around verbally can expect me to defend myself. I don't like bullies.
No ethnic pride to worry about.
But also no ethnic pride to be had.
What will people argue over then?
Probably the color of their shoes.
It's all strange anyway, makes no sense, it's not like whites did anything different than any other people did. War, slavery, genocide... Whites outlawed those things at least. (Not that laws against such things change anything, these things still go on all over the world, too hard to read or listen to the news)
You said it.
Whites outlawed it.
At least "we" made things right.
There seems to be, so far, no accountability on the part of other races to be "tolerant" and accept any white person's dignity and/or pride in their "heritage".
WE? Give me a break! If the majority of whites had a say if outlawing slavery, my brown behind would probably be resting up to go to some cotton field! As a black woman, I do not personally give whites for slavery being abolished. President Lincoln signed the declaration of independence...period! By the way, a white man assassinated him after that!
I would be willing to be that the abolition of slavery was at least one reason why Lincoln was killed!
Lincoln signed the Declaration of Independence?! LOL! Honest mistake, I know. But, he did not abolish slavery either.
1. The majority of white were against slavery. The Northerners were generally against slavery and far outnumbered the Southerners. Contrary to popular belief among the ignorant, most Southerners didn't own slaves. Usually only the rich plantation owners could afford to do so. So the majority of whites were for outlawing slavery and this lead to the big thing called the Civil War, maybe you've heard of it?
2. Whites did abolish slavery. I didn't see anybody else with the power to do anything about it in the 1800s. Lincoln signed the EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION, which only said that there could not be slavery in the SOUTH, which Lincoln had no control over at the time because of the Civil War. It was more of a political gesture to keep Great Britain on the side of the Union. It didn't even do anything about slavery in the Union border states because Lincoln did not want those states to secede as well.
3. The thing that abolished slavery was the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Do you know how Amendments are added to the Constitution? Amending the Constitution is a two-part process: amendments must be proposed then ratified. Amendments can be proposed one of two ways. To date, all amendments, whether ratified or not, have been proposed by a two-thirds vote in each house of Congress. Alternatively, if two-thirds of the state legislatures demand one, Congress must call for a constitutional convention, which would have the power to propose amendments. Regardless of how the amendment is proposed, it must also be ratified by three-fourths of states.
So yeah...white people abolished slavery.
This is slightly off-centre, you may be right that at some point in time people started to question slavery but for most of recorded history slavery was an accepted norm. The Moors used to raid the coasts of England and Europe for slaves before we got the big stick in terms of world power and turned that around.
Prayzpoetess is looking at this from her brown end - and it will look different to your white end. There is still plenty of modern slavery to worry about and discuss, not least how close the condition of everyday modern workers is to slavery.
And the Civil War was mostly about economics, slavery was only a part of that as free labour was giving the south a massive 'unfair' trade advantage.
"And the Civil War was mostly about economics"
'Mostly' is overstating it. Slavery was the point around which all other factors grew.
If you took that quote within its context, then yes, I was right.
Who said I was white?
The only reason it "looks" different from either of our ends is because I am arguing with facts and she was arguing with non-factual information.
That's an interesting thought, though I would argue that the condition of modern workers is not that close to slavery. I would say that it was much closer during the industrial revolution. Workers today still have control and freedom over their lives.
The main causes of the Civil War were state's rights and slavery. The South seceded right after Lincoln was elected because he wanted to abolish slavery. I disagree with your idea that the South had any advantages over the North economically. They didn't have to worry about an unfair trade advantages because they traded completely different things. The South mainly grew a lot of crops, like cotton and tobacco and the North was mainly manufacturing. There wasn't much competition between them. Also during that time slavery was becoming almost obsolete thanks to new technology (like the cotton gin) that allowed things that were done cheaply by slaves to be even more quickly and cheaper by paid workers. It's similar to car manufacturing replacing people with robots.
"The South seceded right after Lincoln was elected because he wanted to abolish slavery"
No, he had made it clear that he would accept a Union with slavery over disunion without slavery. The first states to secede had all but decided to anyway, and when the election reflected a further weakening of their position in the federal government they pulled the trigger. Many feared (rightly, as it turns out) that Lincoln would become actively anti-slavery, but part of the reason he won the election was that he was not overtly so.
"Also during that time slavery was becoming almost obsolete thanks to new technology (like the cotton gin) that allowed things that were done cheaply by slaves to be even more quickly and cheaper by paid workers. "
No. The Cotton Gin was one of the key factors that cemented an economic dependency (or so percieved) in the South on slavery.
"The majority of white were against slavery"
No, not really.
"Contrary to popular belief among the ignorant, most Southerners didn't own slaves. Usually only the rich plantation owners could afford to do so. "
That doesn't mean the rest of the Southern whites wanted to abolish slavery. They did not.
"Lincoln signed the EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION, which only said that there could not be slavery in the SOUTH"
Actually, it declared an end to slavery in those areas in rebellion at the time it was issued. It was not issued to make GB happy, but to finally and irrevocably put a certain political focus on the war. It did not affect Union border states because Lincoln did not have the authority to do so. The fact that it might have caused them to secede and the fact that it was unpopular with large segments of the population in the North puts the lie to your claim that the majority of whites wanted to end slavery. Lincoln very carefully modulated his own position on slavery prior to that because the idea of an outright ban on slavery was a political hot potato in the north as well.
Then you have to recall that during reconstruction a very determined segment of the white southern population, as exemplified by the Redeemers, attempted to recreate the conditions of slavery through the Black Codes and various forms of intimidation, oppression, and economic manipulation.
So, while it is good - and inevitable - that slavery did end, I don't know how much collective back-patting is appropriate.
The North was largely anti-slavery, however, I think I'm going to give up this point seeing as, unfortunately, we have no real data to base this on. Too bad they didn't have any polls back then, because I would like to see the percentages that opposed.
Excellent point. When I said that I forgot that it was a cultural thing that they grew up in, so they would be opposed to it.
Yes, it did say that slavery was abolished in the rebellious states. It didn't affect the border states because they were not included in it. Lincoln didn't want them seceding as well. It also gained some political points with France and Great Britain which were against slavery and had outlawed it. You're right slavery was a hot button issue and Lincoln tried to be extremely careful with it.
I've never heard of the Redeemers before, you've peaked my curiosity, I'm going to look them up. When you say Black Codes are you talking about the Jim Crow Laws? It was a really horrible thing that the South did after the war to try to keep blacks down. Tell you the truth, I'm not too sure about the collective back-patting either. But on a positive note, they were able pass all those Constitutional Amendments after the war which is a really difficult process so that means something.
The whites outlawed what another white had begun....so made things right??.....
Lets be clear here sin has no colour and America was founded long before any white man stepped ashore
I find it incredibly ignorant for some people to conveniently forget that historical fact...
"America was founded long before any white man stepped ashore"
No, it wasn't.
Yes it was....
What history books you reading from ?
The continent was there, but the political entity that we know today obviously did not yet exist.
The Native Americans were well organised among themselves, or you might prefer the term 'governed' so I disagree with you that their was no political entity.
Why they even had respect for their elders and respect for the land, imagine that!
They lived on the land that you may be familar with
" From California to the NY Islands
To the Redwood forest ,to the Gulf stream waters..
This land was made for YOU and ME
No, no, THE political entity that is generally thought of when one mentions "America" did not yet exist. The continent was not referred to as 'America' until Europeans arrived if you want to get really picky, and while there were of course many native peoples there, there was no unified political entity that could be said to represent the area that we know of today as the United States of America.
See what I mean?
So stop calling it something else.
If you are using the term 'America' to signify the term the United States government and that causes confusion, stop the confusion by calling the government of the United States the government of the United States.
America is two continents with many countries and vast histories, political and otherwise.
Absolutely - The whole idea is foreign to most, especially when we talk of 'discovering' this land and that land. And this is possibly where racism moved from simple fear or caution of others to a tool of oppression. Destroying other cultures because ours is best is pure arrogance, and to continue to try and promote our failing values as though no change is needed is ridiculous. We need other cultures to learn from and to see our own more clearly.
What will people argue over then?
Probably the color of their shoes.
LOL! Probably true!
At the very least, this kind of topic is much more relevant than talking about clitoris piercing! I haven't dared go into that thread yet, and I will keep refraining. ha
The one thing that characterizes a person as a racist. That is their repeated use of the word, "they!" Shame, shame!
okay I see the new post also accuses me of hatred!
I don't understand that.
I don't hate anyone.
I was expressing my view (and I've seen it in so many different areas from the political arena to personal) that (some) people of color often exhibit a passive/aggressive form of reverse discrimination that should be nipped in the bud before America becomes an even worse hotbed of racial confrontation.
You are delusional, you are the most hate-filled person on hub pages.
And I'm done...
If you were hoping you'd get by with those false accusations without me taking up for myself, you've got another think comin'.
Your post reflects the typical liberal views going around this nation----that it's A-okay for liberals to speak whatever they want and however they feel, but it's not okay for conservatives or Christians to.
It would be good it you'd keep your rude, intolerant-to-free-speech, false accusations to yourself.
I thought you were a writer. Yet you apparently cannot (or will not) comprehend the written word; instead you try to twist it to suit your own biases. I view it as unwarranted hatred. You might wanna check your conscience yourself.
Hey, I thought you said I was. Whats the dealio?
Nah - you come over as a cuddly kinda delusional
If delusional is not giving a fuck what anyone else thinks, then color me delusional!
That is the actual issue here though - You do seem to care what people think and you put your case forcefully and with humour. Most people, including myself, respect that in you.
I think it is interesting that when an earlier thread asked what attracts you to someone first- no one mentioned skin color! It isn't high on the list of things people care about, really. The U.S. is so full of diversity - so many cultures live and work together and intermingle here, so the day will come when everyone forgets to look at skin color at all! I'm gonna be real proud and happy when that day comes.
Actually, Mega, the Detroit Area Study directly contradicts what you state....
To see that color wasn't mentioned in that forum does not mean that color isn't an issue for many....how many didn't post anything, or if they did, just left that part out? Not many people like putting themselves in situations where they can be criticized, especially if its being accused of racism...
I have seen too much color-based decision making in my much-multicultured community to know that this is still a major issue....
"To see that color wasn't mentioned in that forum does not mean that color isn't an issue for many....how many didn't post anything, or if they did, just left that part out? Not many people like putting themselves in situations where they can be criticized, especially if its being accused of racism..."
Ah, so the fact that color wasn't mentioned actually turns out to be proof that color was a factor! Brilliant! Kind of like the snowstorms in Dallas as proof of global warming! I smell a grant!
I agree with this - by prohibiting, one way or another, racist expression does not make it go away it just papers it over; like drugs it just festers under the covers. Not much can be done about it I guess, but claims of its death are grossly exaggerated.
I agree with ya totally....rascism is definately alive an well...in good ole America...and some people sadly are still afraid brown people will rise up and retaliate....
There is only one Brilliant mind here Sad....yours...somehow.
My response speaks for itself...
I am brown skinned woman and nothing ever happened to me here in the US, none that I have ever heard of or experienced, I speak not in slang language, they do understand me when I speak with accent, American way of life is open to as many culture as they know that within their forefathers is a mixture of different blood, ethnicity, descent, whatever you call it,
Everybody of us when we are injured, the color of our blood is red, skin doesnt matter
I live in Dallas, there are different people here and I love it because there are many different kinds of restaurants as well, Chinese, mexicans, fastfoods, you have a choice on what to eat, there is an Asian store and Wal mart, what more to ask??
My brother married a woman from the Philippines and had 4 kids, they have since divorced. My oldest nephew has two sons and both kids are as white as me, so I'm not sure about the browning thing taking root!
oh whether their brown or white is ok isnt it ATexan? I think when people intermarry specially white with asian, they become more like white? the children I mean?
I dont care what color they are, I love them! Just thought because my brothers kids were dark then their kids would be too, not the case however.
oh, they sure are lovely kids, are they taller also? I am only 5 feet average asian woman
My oldest nephew is over 6' the other 2 boys are about 5'8" and the youngest is still growing. My niece (the oldest) is about 5' but she is a little like me and doesn't take any shit. She is a Staff Sergent in the Army and on her third tour to Iraq!
wow - she is good, and the boys are tall,
you mean she is strong right? when you say you dont take shit hehe
I mean she'll hit someone if they give her shit, it caused a lot of problems when she was living in California with her Mother. She was shipped to Texas and finished her High School days here, she lived with my Dad and Mom and Dad straightened her out. Her Dad was floating around on the Pacific so he wasn't around much then until he retired, now he has custody of the youngest boy and works for Homeland Security.
thats good for her at least she was straightened out, your parents did a good job on her and now she is serving her country, we are all proud of her. The youngest one must be doing good as well as he is taken care of by your brother.
White people have always been the miniority ,sorry to burst ya bubble there
Hey Im rainbowed colored deep down
White people have always been the minority...
Yes, but the minority that have ruled over the majority!
And look at the mess where in
Honestly America was red-skinned wasnt it ? just sayin
"In America, you can't straddle the fence and still be an American Patriot. I think it's both non-sensical and unAmerican to term one's self "Spanish American" or "Japanese American", etc. The two-part terms are diametrically opposites."
Why anyone should be told to forget who they are and where they come from is beyond me....the thinking of one who lives in a box...hopefully such people will never have to emigrate anywhere else..
Anglo-Americans like to remove other cultures from people, though....it is in their history.. It is too bad that Native peoples did not set up places like Carlisle Indian School and send the little Anglo children there....stripping them by force from their families and homes, take away their religions and cultures, and beat them when they don't speak the right language...
Physical or cultural, genocide is genocide...and to degrade those who choose to not forget themselves is simply perpetuating this kind of destructiveness...
I agree absolutely. This is happening all over now and has been an ongoing problem.
My mother was Welsh and was beaten at her Welsh school for using the Welsh language, not in school but overheard on the way to school by the teacher who, like all the teachers, was English. This was around the time of the First 'World' war whist her Father, my Grandfather, was away being gassed to death in the trenches. Needless to say only people of good moral character were considered for teaching jobs, through the church of course.
"Anglo-Americans like to remove other cultures from people, though"
That is a bigoted and unfair generalization.
This time you might be right. I dont think anglos want to take away other people's culture. They just think their culture is best for everyone to adapt to.
"They just think their culture is best "
Everyone thinks their culture is best. No great shock there.
That is what Mike said, we think that our culture is better - and try to force people into accepting it.
The same thing happened in every 'new land' that Anglo settlers took for their own, America, Australia and New Zealand obvious examples. What is bigoted or unfair about stating the obvious.
Every 'new' land anyone in history was able to 'take' in one way or another.
Not true at all. As a few examples, when the Muslims carved out their patch they not only allowed, they assisted and preserved the cultures within their 'jurisdiction'. When the Mongols created their Empire they ended up being assimilated into Chinese culture, Currently China is assisting every minority 'nation' within China by allowing 2 children in the one child policy and so on and on and on . . .
The Mongols were brilliantly practical in a Machiavellian way, but suffered no hint of dissent from their rule until they weakened and fell.
Ask the Tibetans or the Uygurs about how helpful China has been. I'm sure you've had the chance to study some history while you've been there (outside the CCP handbook one would hope).
As for the spread of Islam...you must have been thinking of Bizzaro Superman World.
Glad you are showing your true ignorance at last. I made no comment about the character of the Mongols, just that they assimilated themselves into Chinese culture- which was the thread of coversation.
I have many Kazhak and Uigher friends and I have asked them, when I was in Urumuqi and Ely, and this during the recent disputes. They all agree on several things. Most of the tensions are between the 23 Minorities who inhabit the small areas of living space in Xinjiang. They also have a dispute with the Han Chinese, not about sovereignty or any other western idea of the problems but because the Han recovered huge areas of land from the desert and their children stayed on and now own all the major businesses etc.
Tibet is a complex issue but in this case I would compare it with Iraq. America has trashed Iraq for oil, killing far more people than the legal, if disliked, President. Now America is trying to get out as it can't win in the long run and is leaving behind devastated infrastructure, schools and hostpitals, except of course where the Companies owned by your leaders got contracts. Tibet has little unrest in real terms, and has gained hospitals, schools and infrastructure. None of this is to condone anything - that is not to comment on the causes, but to look at the effect of the two situations.
As for Islam - go do your own homework on that but I would suggest you look further than Youtube or Jackass.
"America has trashed Iraq for oil"
That is not correct.
"Now America is leaving behind devastated infrastructure"
Also not correct.
"Tibet has little unrest in real terms, and has gained hospitals, schools and infrastructure. "
Say, don't I recall someone going on about how bad the US was for setting up schools and such for Native Americans? Ah well...
I find that comment quite condescending ,Im sure the Native Americans would rather have had all the land returned to them that was previously taken from them.
Then they would be truly free to do whatever they hell they wanted-build or not build schools.
I think that you are confusing the Persian Empire with the later Muslim empires. Darius the Great was the one who took careful consideration into preserving conquered people's cultures. When the Muslim empires went in and conquered they force people to either convert or die and even if they converted they were forced to serve as slaves.
Ah - maybe. I was writing from aged memory, the point in question was that not every conquering culture everywhere has crushed the conquered. so the point still stand ok I think.
Oh oh browneyed girl
I used to like brownies but now I prefer girl scouts.
But Old Sad...you are wrong.
The Ottomans alone, not to mention others, are conquerors who preserved the cultures of those they came to rule...from Greek and Armenian, to Arab and Jewish, they, for the most part, enabled peoples to continue in their ways, as long as they followed some new rules and paid their taxes...
In fact, when the Spanish were busy ridding their state of Jews, it was the Ottomans who welcomed the outcasts...giving them safe haven in Thessaloniki (sorry for my mispelling...it's been a long time since I've had to use this city's name, and I don't want to look it up right now)...that was in 1492...the same year of the great "discovery" in the Americas...
Arab Muslims treated the Armenians far better than the Persian Zoroastrians and Roman Catholics....and that is simply fact...
There are many other examples......
As you were saying professor Sad?
" as long as they followed some new rules and paid their taxes..."
LOL! Can't even convince yourself!
"Arab Muslims treated the Armenians far better"
I happen to know quite a few Armenians who don't find historical comfort in "better"
Humans are humans everywhere and at all times despite whatever scorecard your politics urges you to keep.
Oh yes Sad...I suppose we were in Iraq for humanitarian purposes......
No, we are not, although we are attempting some humanitarian efforts while we are at it.
No...Old Sabby does know....and seems to get a kick out of it...
But, this person also leaves a trail of mindlessness strewn through these forums that can provide a wealth of insight into how a mind like this works....
And now with more insults? Can't help yourself?
I sure cant! You were easier to take when you were a cute little dog. Now! You entering a conversation for the sole purpose of pushing people's buttons, and then acting offended when someone responds is again- old, tired, and corny. Try something new. Like a real conversation that you have a real desire to share instead of provoke.
I'm an Armenian who is better versed than most of his fellow countrymen on their history....and far better than you do...
Your "knowledge' has again been found wanting Old Sad.
Well, aside from an extensive knowledge of my own family history....and having majored in Armenian history and Ottoman history....and then having done further research, including the transcription of Genocide survivors....I think I have developed a pretty good picture of what I am talking about..
Few have the experience that I do on this matter...so yes...I do know Sad...
Would you like to have a discussion ongoingly about Armenians Saddie? We could make it formal and polite, if you can handle it....
You would have to do back up your claims with research...if you can handle it...
What research would 'backup' what I have been told by members of the Armenian community about how they feel? Do you want to go back to discussion via book report?
" yes...I do know Sab..."
So you DO think you know better than everyone else. Thank you for being honest about that.
I am a member of the Armenian community....and one who works beyond "feelings"...with facts...(you know...the product of research)..
I'm right here....I can answer any questions that you may have about my familial heritage...
Of course Saddie...you are of course correct...
Again...this is my heritage...and something that I have dedicated years of my life studying, as my family before me spent years chronicling...
I am related to notable Armenians as well, Aurora Mardiganian was my grandfather's niece....
My great-grandfather was a member of the Committee for Union and Progress (made up of Christians, Muslims, Jews, of Turkish, Arabic, Greek, Armenian and other groups) trying to overthrow Sultan Abdul Hamid....
He was lucky to escape before the Genocide...but Aurora's family did not...
Yet, a great many Muslims, Turkish and Arabic, took in and hid Armenians from the deportations and slaughter...My great grandfather escaped, but he had to leave his wife, children, and extended family behind....but they were hidden in this way...and they were able to make it out...
But again....the Millet system...the ability for Armenians and Greeks to keep their language, customs, and enabling them to engage in commerce via their own rules freely stands in stark contrast to the Europeans....
It was this open relationship, especially via trade,that enabled Armenians, Greeks, and Jews to rise to great prominence within the Ottoman Empire, being that Europeans opted to trade via these networks, circumventing the official Muslim option...
But, how many Armenians know this stuff...most don't..
But I do.....
That does not make me better, Saddie, but rather makes me a better representative to speak about these issues....that is all....
I have also studied under the best.....Richard Hovannisian is an icon in the Armenian History world....
My aunt was both the press secretary for the Armenian Embassy for several years, and was televised on Armenian Teletime for a long time....
Knowledge is gained through the pooling of diverse resources....and this is something that I pursue....
Saddie, you do something much different...
"this is my heritage...and something that I have dedicated years of my life studying, as my family before me spent years chronicling..."
Fantastic. So, any other Armenian who disagrees with you is illegitimate, is that it?
Interesting posts, Mike
Very similar to the position of the Greeks - it was a complicated period of history.
In my village, many Greeks from the Black Sea moved here during the population exchanges of the 1920's. Many local people remember it, so I am hoping to interview a few of them.
No...but there are many who are bigoted....who blame the Turks for their plight....
I do as well, at least in terms of the Sultanate and the Young Turks....but the common Turkish Muslim....I do not....
I met a young Armenian one day who told me that you "shake a Turks hand with one and stab him in the back with the other"...that is his own problem...
I haven't met many Armenians who know as much as I do...but for those who do we are of the same view....and in recognition of this I have organized an Armenian Genocide Remembrance event for the past 3 years at Los Angeles Mission College....and have served as the key presenter..
The role of Britain and the United States, amongst others, is not forgotten....and the key roles that they played, whether turning Armenians against one another through the interference of Western Missionaries, or the increased dominance of the Ottoman economy by the West.......culminating in the "forgetting" of promises made by President Wilson.....leading to the second deportation of Armenians from their traditional homeland in 1921.......
Facts Sabbie....not feelings...
To refine my statement...of those who I consider peers in terms of knowledge of Armenian history and heritage....those I have met are in agreement with me...of those I have not yet met...we shall see when that crossing point occurs...
I put more blame on the American and British missionaries for fueling the hostilities that culminated in the Armenian Genocide than I do the Turkish Muslims...
Of course...I can cite the dischord within my own family that was caused by this relgious intervention....
And...that second deportation of Armenians....and the military actions by the Turkish nationalist state (the current Turkey) towards Armenia were very similar to the United States treatment of Mexico at the close of the Mexican-American War....
The Turkish Army surrounded Yerevan...ravaging the countryside as they moved eastward from Ankara...and forced the Armenian government to denounce its claim to its territories, including Mount Ararat....or else face elimination....
Armenia today is only the portion that the Russian Army held prior to the outbreak of World War One....and this place would be the only region for Armenians who had reentered what was Ottoman Armenia following the end of WWI to retreat to....turn to the communists or face elimination....
All while Wilsonian Armenia died on the drafting table....
Bring me the Armenians who disagree Sad....instead of just arguing with nothing to show....bring a specific claim and we will address it...
Lol...book report....I just sent you a dissertation piece...
Maybe you should take some of what I said and present it to the Armenians you happen to know....they may gain more respect for you...
You can bring them to the event that I host...you can come..and then you can criticize whatever I say openly, and we will have the video camera running....
I'll save the part of the front row for you and your guests...
Well said poetess......
It's nice to cross paths with you again Sufidreamer....I hope all is going well with you...
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