What I don't understand is this... Why are you so against homosexuals? They are doing nothing that personally harms you or anyone else. How can it be wrong to want to be ALLOWED to love the person you love?
I can understand that YOU don't want to be gay, but trying to dictate what sexuality others can be is WRONG, JUST PLAIN WRONG!
Why put a target on your back if you do not want to get hit. The fact is that you seem to thrive on conflict. You jump into a thread and immediately start thumping people on the head with your Christian point of view. You seldom exhibit a willingness to want to discuss things freely. You herald the acts of others who defend free speech and yet you seem unable to put the practice to use. since you started this thread only as a response to another thread where you were not successful at bullying the participants into compliance with your opinions I think the honorable thing would be to delete it and go have the debate where it started.
I agree that not all people who are anti-gay are homophobic, and the lumping of any one who is anti-gay into a group of supposedly gay people that are in denial of their own true nature is an unfair and juvenile statement.
Because what is right and wrong is subjective, to you what is right is what is wrong to another. You simply stating that Gayness is wrong means you are simply attacking what they are and what they think is right. That means to them they are justified in defending themselves, even if that defense is a counter attack against you.
As a liberal-minded person, that you have just lumped into a broad and sweeping generalization and false depiction of, I would have to say that you have done exactly what you are so indignant about being done to you. Not every liberal-minded person is pro-gay, I am not gay and I am not interested in most gay activities, but I am Pro-freedom and Pro-constitution, and since that means:
We find these truths to be self evident, that all people are created equal that they were endowed by their created with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
That to me includes the right to anal sex with a man if the two men involved are made happy by the act. Even if the "Bibles" say it is wrong.
As to your first question: What the heck are you talking about?
As to your second: Many reasons, first, you're not talking about a "conservative" agenda, you're talking about a narrow-minded religious agenda which has no place in law or government. Second, you don't get to decide what's right and wrong for everyone else with your narrow minded religious agenda. When will people get it through their thick skulls that other people's sexual orientation is none of their damn business?
Finally, when one targets a specific group of people, makes moral judgments about them based on their narrow minded religious agenda, and decides that they shouldn't have the same rights as other groups of people in a country, that's called hate--when one talks about it, it's called hate speech. Some people don't tolerate it. You ought to be grateful for that fact; but for those who won't tolerate hatefulness and subjection, you'd still be nothing but property--you certainly wouldn't be here.
Think it's something to do with the bible Deborah, those bits where it states that God finds homosexuality (not homosexuals) an abomination, but whatever, we are all sinners... all have fallen short of the glory of God.
well, i honestly can't answer that because I can only speak on my own behalf. However, it is statistically proven that the people that are most homophobic are often the same ones that are closet homosexuals themselves. Using anti-gay hate speech and actions to cover up their hidden desires. At least, that's what one documentary told me on HBO one time.
However, I doubt seriously any gay person who said that, meant for everyone in the world. If they did, i'll be the first one to tell them that they're wrong. In fact, just the mere thought of touching another man in a sexual related way, makes my skin crawl and sick. Don't get me wrong, if that's what your into, then fine. Just don't expect me to be a part of it. besides, i much rather be with girls anyway...or a hot polar bear like beth100.
Okay, saying that it's "just plain wrong" to be gay is like saying it's "just plain wrong" to be black, or hispanic or a Roman Catholic, or Jewish, or Indian, or whatever. By saying that it's immoral to be gay, that constitutes hate speech against the gay community. No one is going around saying it's wrong for you to be Christian or whatever, because you have freedom of religion. No one is going around telling you it's wrong to be straight, or that straight people are all secretly gay, I have no idea who told you this. But plenty of gay people are attacked and victimized by straight people who think they need to be "cured".
I'd honor the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, not just in our military but in all areas of American society. When people practice consentual adult perversion in private, then that's their business, and, and but, that's exactly where it should remain. NOT flaunted in the faces of Americans, especially youngsters. NOT condoned legally by some form of "marriage" or "civil union". You can't civilize a concept that's uncivil to the core.
It's gone beyond speech lately. Shooting an abortion doctor; crashing a plane into an IRS office; spitting on black congressmen; shooting a guard at the Holocaust Museum; blowing up the federal office building in Oklahoma City, killing 165 people; and cutting the gas line at the home of the brother of a congressman who voted for health care reform. It's clearly getting out of hand.
I don't know that many gay people, but I'm quite sure I know more than you. They are friends regardless of sexual orientation. Once our particular stands in this area of social interaction are made clear, I never have to restated my position.
I have never had one of these friends tell me that I'm a closet gay or that I have hidden gay desires.
I thoroughly believe that this is nothing more than a canard based solely on a bigot's assertion with no actual basis in fact.
"Why is it that a [conservative/liberal/progressive/independent] person cannot say something is just plain wrong and other things right without being attacked personally?"
I'd say it's an American pass-time.
I'll agree that some of it is false, but not all of it. From some quarters nearly every uttered syllable is hate filled speech.
Some gay guys will try the "how do you know if you haven't tried it?" or questions of that nature. I think they're hoping some straight men they're attracted to are just closeted - something we call "hope-and-praydar" which is far less accurate than gaydar.
This is, of course, no different from straight men pestering lesbian women (lesbian women pestering straight women, straight women pestering gay men), asking them the same thing.
Sexual orientation, for most, seems to be pretty much hardened by puberty at the latest. But until everyone is completely comfortable with their sexual orientation, there's a lot of ambiguity that can be misinterpreted.
Not that you don't already know all these things...
Either way it's irrelevant. Let's get a bit of perspective here. Given all of the twisted, "Satanic" things going on in the world right now, and God knows there are untold numbers of evil acts, and continuance of evil conditions people are subject to in our times, I think Brenda (or anyone claiming a concern for morality) is therefore forced to pick and choose her battles, ie, to pick the worst of the evil, and combat that.. life is too short to solve every problem out there...
It's my position that the word "moral" has gotten all mangled... forcing people to stay in rotting marriages is not "moral". Telling those who clearly in many cases (all cases? Don't know..) have extremely strong desires to be in relationships with and fall in love with someone of the same gender that they cannot have the same tax, etc., rights as others is not "moral".
Finally, wasting time banging on about these things when there exist such horrendous conditions that need fixing for children (and adults) NOW, is insane (I mean conditions of sanitation, health, basic literacy, etc.).
You've always been free to serve in the military. That's what the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was about; it allowed everyone to serve as they had before, but it stopped catering to the idea that a gay soldier was behaving in a good, professional manner when they made an issue of loving homosexual practices. You just weren't free to make unwanted sexual advances to straight soldiers. That homosexual agenda you're promoting served only one purpose---it made straight soldiers fearful of reporting unwanted sexual advances and insinuations.
That would be the agenda to make into U.S. Law the sanction of sodomy and other sexual activities which should be kept (if people so choose to do those things) in private bedrooms, not waved in front of the American people (especially innocent school children) like a flag of approval.
I think you may be right, it would obviously be sensible to go back to putting 'them' in prison, maybe surgically mutilating 'them'. Then we could re-institute slavery to bring back them 'good 'ol days, then we could take back the rights that we men gave women to vote and generally interfere in politicking, but then we would have to discriminate (at best) against divorce but the real joy is that we could run around burning the opposition as witches.
Before any women, slaves, divorcee's or witches push the report button - this is ironic.
Well I am completely baffled. Unless the US is about to make a law that you must sodomise in public I'm not sure how anything is being waved in front of the people.
I don't know what law you are talking about, but I'm not American so I don't pay a lot of attention to every law there. If you are speaking of gay marriage then I can say as citizen of a country where it is legal that it has done nothing to anyone else. A few couples who already lived together put on wedding rings, had a big party and went on with life as usual. The rest of us were in no way effected. Those who proclaimed our society would fall apart and families be destroyed simply look silly now that the law has come to pass and nothing happened.
Wow - I have been having a lazy weekend and coming on and off line morning evening and a bit in the middle of the day and you are always here battling away, fighting the good fight and trying to knock simple words and concepts into the hardest heads!!
I have pretty much decided to give up, but now you make me feel guilty as though I am personally responsible for letting some of the reins of civilization slip away into the hands of the most unbelievable bigots and simple minded morons it has been my misfortune to meet. I can only say I am glad that it is online where the bloody foaming spit that comes with their words cannot get onto me.
I admire your perserverance and amazing patience with these backward learners, deeply damaged individuals and generally hateful people. You make me realise that peace, love and caring are still in the world - despite their efforts.
Everybody has to take a break from this stuff from time to time or we'd go insane, I'm sure. I get carried away sometimes, but then I remember what my priorities are, and those four people aren't on hubpages.
I've actually been thinking that I need to focus more on hubs, preferably the kind that might make me some money, lol, and religion ain't it! Nor is politics, I'm afraid.
Also thinking I need to pick my fights better when I do dig in. Nobody can keep up with all the crap that gets spewed.
And as you say it sure affects your perspective of the world and people when you spend too much time on religious boards. It's scary knowing what and how your neighbors really think.
On reflection my point should be enlarged (no innuendo meant). The hubber(s) who like to claim that there is something called 'heterophobia' are the ones the MOST guilty of it. After all, such folks normally only accept straight MARRIED sex as legitimate. The rest of us are as evil as gay folks.
Is it possible that because the "great" Obama touts baby-killing at the convenience of his daughters, and touts sodomistic practices as the right thing to do (and wants to make those into law), that the liberal agenda thinks it can get by with everything?
Seems to me that Obama has spoken of his mother often. He looks black, his experiences have been as a black man in America. When no one knew his name they did not say...oh, you are half white. They saw a black man.
Base is ongoing hatred against him with accusation. So now do i have to give base to you from around the world for remarks on obama for that ? and speaking of facts what you have to disapprove my statement ? feelings ?
She really makes one want to spend eternity with her ilk, doesn't she? But that's right, only Fox News watchers and republicans (same thing actually) will make it to heaven. At least I hope so anyway. It will serve God right!
By that logic you are condemning a lot of those who agree with you as hateful. It seems to be a sport among those that back a liberal mindset to call everyone racist, I guess its much easier than actually thinking.
Not so. Happens a lot. Case in point---the other thread. I'm fed up with the innuendoes and accusations toward people like me and other conservatives. If people want to engage in sodomy and baby-killing, then I can't stop them. But I have EVERY right to speak my mind about it; and when they try to make it legal in the USA and shut down anyone who speaks the truth and the Truth, then I take huge exception to that invasion/harrassment against what's right. The moral backbone of American society is being hammered with all the hogwash. I'm fighting back, and I don't give a whit who wants to twist wrong trying to make it right. It will never be right and everyone knows it. Hands off my country's moral basis!
The real shame is that you really have very little clue what you're talking about BOTH when it comes to this country's moral basis AND the Bible.
Your vitriol and hatred are hardly worth wasting the time and brain cells it takes to type to you.
Someday, hate-mongering, judgmental, anxiety-ridden people like you will no longer exist and the world will live in harmony. And whether you believe it or not--it is the Lord of the Bible who will make it so.
And guess what? When the time comes, He's going to have a whole lot less to say to gay people than He will to you and other hateful so-called Christians like you. Knowing better and doing anyway will be punished with many stripes.
And when we do stand before him; he is not going to ask us how many good things that we think that we have done in this life. I think that he is going to ask us what we still have in our pockets. Are standing before him asking for love and forgiveness.... With our pockets full of hate and unforgiveness?
I think that we should consider our own baggage that we expect to carry with us. I'm not that worried about what you are carrying. Though I wish you well.
One day, you will stand face to face with the Lord God Almighty, and he's going to be pissed that you couldn't find it in your heart to LOVE your brother, and that you spread this hatred in HIS name.
Now, I will readily admit that the very same thing is true for me-- there are plenty of things I will be held accountable for as well...but spreading the false doctrine and encouraging hatred won't be one of them.
brenda its republicans and dems alike that do not want this lunacy. it's the gays that have decided to choose the dem party. they have gone after our children(boyscouts)and last week got xbox to now start putting gays and bi's in their video games so they can bend the childrens thinking.that is so sad! they are like a virus. slowly steadily devouring the youth all the while claiming to be poor little victims.it truly is time to do something because society was trying to be nice since the 70's but it appears that these people have become self righteous, flipped the script and now somehow according to them we. . . are the ones that are morally incorrect ha ha ha ridiculous. . . .absolutely ridiculous!
Except that I think the gay agenda has been chosen by the Democratic Party as well as choosing it. In general, anyway. ...The Republican Party is the only one that I've seen which has a Platform that sticks up for traditional marriage.
I coined it as far as I know. Figger I have the same right to as whoever coined the word homophobia. But hey maybe it was spoken by many other people before me, I dunno! So I really can't take credit for it.
Who knows--maybe it'll make the dictionary line-up one of these days! That would be one small step toward re-aligning the dictionaries for America's posterity.
But now that I think of it, the definition was already pretty much defined long ago, by none other than the Prophets.
I've never seen a gay person accuse a straight person of wanting to be gay. I think you misunderstood the other thread.
He was pointing out that most people who are homophobic are gay ALREADY. But because of people like you, Conservatives, they are afraid to come out of the closet and join in with your gay bashing. Nowhere did it say homophobic people are straight.
Nobody's forcing them to engage in a specific sexual activity. With the exception of instances of rape, of course. And the current trend at seducing young minds with the idea that homosexuality is A-ok.
Well actually I am liberal but I think you have a very distorted perception of a liberal which I don't blame you for because the liberal views are being propagated by people who aren't so I get it but I just wanted you to know.
Being liberal doesn't mean that I cannot have Christian morals. To me it is about making my own choices that suit me in a way I am comfortable with. Not about making others change to make myself more comfortable.
I do actually agree with some conservative views but it doesn't make me conservative, it makes me liberal. And I like you Brenda, very much and I am not mad I just wanted to say and I don't think you are a hater.
Someone else posed the idea that being "liberal" simply means being free of bias....
I'm not sure that's right....
Liberal, in my conversation and in so many others', means being pro-abortion, pro-gay-rights, pro-socialism, and generally a free-for-all approach to behavior, anti-rules basically.
And I don't think a Christian CAN be liberal in those respects, at least not for long, because surely they'd soon realize their error....
I'm not mad either. Well, not at you. I'm mad at the liberal hogwash going on in my country.
THANKS for saying you don't think I'm a hater (meaning hater of persons), because you're right--I'm not. (I've been called that a lot; and it doesn't faze me, but it is good to hear someone be nice to me in that regard.)
And that is exactly where the 'hogwash' as you call it, comes from. Me and several other liberal friends of mine do vote pro-choice, and pro gay rights yet I, myself am pro-life and I am not gay and I don't think it is right to change a religiously found ceremony of marriage between man and woman to include man and man and woman and woman but they should be able to be life long partners and be afforded all the same rights as a traditional married couple under a new name, I thought 'union' worked just fine.
Being free of bias doesn't mean I don't or shouldn't have opinions or feelings suitable for myself, it means that I am not hear to take away peoples rights only that I am free to make my own choices and I want other people to be free to make theirs as well.
But just so you know, voting this way doesn't mean I wouldn't try to talk a woman out of getting an abortion but I wouldn't hate her if she did.
I know it is what some call condoning or insensitive or immoral but really, it is not my choice and I disagree with anyone who says that I would be just as guilty for allowing it. I think about what God said a lot and take heed to his insight about judgement and free will.
I know that it doesn't jive with other sisters and brothers but if God doesn't force you to do things good or bad then neither should I being trying to force things good or bad.
Same intent. Selfishness. As long as they themselves get what they want, they're on their merry way every day, doin' whatever they want. They only balk when things don't go their way and they have to be accountable for something.
No, Brenda, it isn't always their choice. My cousin was gay. His parents were Christian and Conservatives. Because of their constant disapproval of homosexuality, he lived life as a straight man for 38 years before he finally couldn't take it anymore and came out of the closet. He never got married. He never had children. He was unhappy and he drank.
Now that he has finally gotten up the courage to come out of the closet, he is happy. You know what? I think you've gotten the definition of anti-gay wrong. You don't mean you're against homosexuality. You mean you're against happiness.
Your story isn't unique. I know of people I also love who have similar stories. But ya know what?-----that's something each person should deal with themselves. It's called being accountable for one's actions. It's called having self-control. It's called (in several cases that I know of) repentance and living for Christ by turning away from that lifestyle.
Yes, there are many similar stories. In every single story, one factor remains the same. Christian Conservatives made it obvious they thought homosexuality was wrong, therefore helping another human being (whom you are supposed to love) remain unhappy.
Does that not make you step back for even one second and think, "Hm, maybe my tactics here are wrong. Maybe I should practice what I preach and try to be more accepting. Maybe I should try being more open-minded. Maybe, just maybe, the world would be more harmonious if I just let people be happy during their time on Earth and let the Lord handle things the way he sees fit when we are called for judgment?"
After all, you're not God. Who are you to judge others? Let the Big Guy upstairs handle these issues and just allow others to be happy. That's what the Bible says to do anyway.
American's youth are being attacked within our schools and in many many arenas of life today. Seduction. Legalizing crap. Legalizing baby-killing at the whim of mothers who should know better or be taught better by those with influence.
And outright shoving that liberal agenda down America's throats. Some of us don't like that. Many of us don't like it.
What you think is wrong is your opinion, you have the right to think anything you want, you can hate blacks, obama, gays, prochoice, anything you want. But thats your OPINION. Describe how you have the right to force others to live by what YOU think is moral?
In reply to the OP. It can be tough to accept sexual attraction to ones own sex- its not an avenue I would want to explore too much, myself. At the same time, every time a person refuses to accept the realities of being human, they become a little more dangerous. So it is worth examining homosexual elements in ones own psyche.
I have gay friends who are great people that I see every weekend, but I don't agree with alot of the hype. I don't like it when people say stuff like everybody has a little bit of gay in them and all this stuff, and you get all this stuff like be 'open-minded' is it not open minded if you don't think sodomy is attractive? I can see how to people of the same sex might love each other, but I am happy being me. People can make what ever decisions they want as long as it doesn't affect me and I don't have it pushed on me.
LOL I have one Gay friend who kept touching my leg lol, even though I made repeated hints I was totally straight..He's cool though.. But one was annoying, he had a go at me because my nails were dirty! and that was my ex girlfriends friend
I respect the opinion of Ms Brenda as I respect others opinion as well, But I can't understand this thread, its the same as what it should not do in the first place, post a thread which is lopsided, what can you get from a forum thread which is deductive, you have set your conclusions already -- only to be negated and usually discussions will gone awry
While I can't speak to the idea of Christian grace in any sweeping way, I will say that in the case of this particular OP, there is hypocrisy on a grand scale. If I can call you a poo-poo face, you have every right to call me a doo-doo head. Fair's fair.
No disrespect to anyone but why do we continue to have these type of threads? Goodness it certainly would be nice if everyone could just get along. Homophobic, Heterophobic I could not imagine living in fear of all of this, I certainly have more things to do besides having a panic attack this song says it perfectly! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTSZ9TFk7A
I made no mention of it being in the constitution. It will come as no surprise to you that many in this country are not religious. Why would we want our children to have to listen to cult chantings of any sort? This has absolutely nothing to do with getting an education.
"All men are created equal" means a great deal to me. This means I do not have to listen to anyone's beliefs, whether they concern real or imagined deities. I'm glad you have the same right. Do you think I deserve this right?
Are you saying the students are prohibited from praying silently? As far as I know, they can pray silently as much as they like in school. What rights have they lost? And no, I don't think it is just about prayer. It is about keeping religion out of places it has no business being.
Religion has long retarded science and knowledge by teaching myths and hearsay. "The world is flat."
You keep your god at your house and there will be no problems. If your god will personally make it known to the school system he would like prayers to him allowed in school, I feel sure they will comply, and so will I.
And yes, this is my opinion. Myths and hearsay are things which cannot be proven, such as your beliefs.
Some astronomers were imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment for saying the earth was round. It went against church teachings as being heretical. You did not know this?
Please address my silent prayer observations, I would like to hear your take on this.
But what is wrong with praying silently? Why must you offend others with your prayer, and it is offensive to some people whether you admit it or not.
I've yet to hear one answer about silent prayer from your ilk which makes any sense whatsoever. Are you afraid god can't hear you, or is it simply because it make you feel better than the doomed sinners around you?
The name Jesus bothers me not at all. I knew a guy named Jesus one time. I think he was an illegal alien, but I'm not sure. Okay dude, nothing special.
Okay, and I'll ask my imaginary god to make all of your descendants be born naked. Now we'll see whose god is more powerful.
Those like you only want to pray aloud so others can see how pious you are. I equate you with the Mormon priest who blathered endlessly about his goodness. As some have stated before, you know you are insulting an unbeliever when you tell them you are praying for them. You are saying you are right because you say so, not god. I find it hard to believe any omnipotent being would choose many of those claiming to speak for him. If he did, then I would have less respect for him than I do now.
I wasn't offended, Sir Dent. I live in the Bible Belt, south Georgia, in fact. I've been exposed to many such insults in my long lifetime. Some people need an imaginary god to make them be good folks, while others try to do good because they care for their fellow man. We all have our own reasons. I don't want to decide for you and you should not expect to decide for me.
But as I said before, there are always those who imagine they know what's best for everyone else.
One thing you do have wrong. It is not my way nor my opinion about what is good for you or anyone else. I am not deciding for you. That is your job.
You called it an insult for me to say I am praying for you, when you in fact believe God to be a myth and a lie. So really in your own mind I am just wasting my time anyway doing something that cannot accomplish anything at all.
The insult is you pretending you are doing me a favor. By praying for me you insinuate you are more enlightened than I about reality.
If I said "I hope your ignorance and stupid sense of superstitious illogical religious idiocy disappears" this would be insulting to you,I would think. This is essentially what you are doing by telling me you are praying for me. Why you and many others cannot see this clearly is an enigma to me.
Well, just so you know, I have never prayed for you or any other atheist I have met on HubPages.
We are told that we are stupid and ignorant on a daily basis here. If not by you there are many others who do. I see no point in continuing this particular discussion. I will reply if there is something else you want to say or mention but it will be in the morning.
I hate the church and I hate the actions of homesexuals. Everyone I've ever known, especially in college so they are educated, they make fun of gay people and are repulsed by what they do. That is my liberal view on the matter and within little groups of friends I think most normal people are repulsed by the actions of gay people, but those opinions do not leave that close knit circle of friends, because they'll be lynched by whoever the hell is making the rules. Something clearly went wrong with our evolution along the way. The worst thing is that these people are starting to adopt children. What kind of negative impact will that have on a child's life?
Shows you how times change. The spirit of society used to be more god friendly as in most homes had a cross in the living room. If you look at early tv you will see an innocence about morals as opposed to todays movies which all flaunt naked skin for ratings. Just because society has gone in the direction of cain doesn't make things better, it just makes things convenient - for now but in the short span of life, in the end, will it be worth it? Ya gotta ask yourself before the car hits the wall at 60miles an hour.
Yep, all the husbands and wives slept in separate beds and everyone was white on TV. Cigarette commercials on every ad break and beer too. No blacks in the white schools and a chicken in every pot. Nothing like the good old days.
just thinking the same... We have some of the most soundly based children's shows the world has ever seen, entertaining kids, teaching them about love. I don't think the world is a bad place, and getting worse either. We do have to accommodate a lot more people and ideas though.
SO let me get this right. You, Ms. Brenda, are sick of people attacking you personally for you're views. Liberal sodomites, to be specific. Now, I have a question. If you disagree with this.. injustice is what we'll call it.... Then what about all the Homosexuals who get physically and verbally abused for what they believe? Where is their justice?
You want freedom of speech And thats great. What you don't seem to grasp is that That freedom isn't only for you. It's for everyone. And like it or not, That's the way the world is.
People attack others for their views everyday. And whether or not you do it isn't the point. The point is everyone has a right to an opinion, yourself included. With saying that, I will say no more. To save the ''innocent school children''.
Oh Skyfire, I've read the bible, several times. I lived with an abusive religious nut in Florida that belonged to some freaking cult church. I got out before I got brainwashed.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- Matthew 7:1-5
It is hypocritical judgment that this Scripture condemns.
I think all too often people like to throw stones at those who are different without ever looking at themselves.
And then again, there are those people who just like to stir the stinky pot.
............ A Christian's "brother" or "sister" is another Believer, not unrepentant deliberate sinners who try to hit Believers over the head with both the liberal agenda and their Bibles (if those unrepentants even have a Bible).
Jesus said in both Mark 3 and Matthew 13 that whoever does the will of His Father was His (Spiritually) brother, and sister, and mother, (and therefore children of God). Others are not.
What can I say except that I do disagree of course. I think it IS your choice to take a stand (both Biblically and politically) against what you believe is wrong. Give the devil an inch and he'll take a mile, and people pay for it with their souls, even.
....I keep remembering John the Baptist who had the nerve to tell the King that he was doing wrong. John paid for it with his life. But he saved his soul! The blood of the King was not required at his hands, because he warned him!
Who these days, even Christians, are willing to speak up at the cost of possibly their lives?? ....I see very few. All the famous Pastors in the public eye have dropped the ball, stepped down from their watchtowers, fearful of the liberal agenda's axe fallin' on them.... and the worst thing is that many of them are simply fearful they'll lose popularity or money....
Well, I think it is a narrow minded approach but it is yours and I see what you are getting at, thus I did add that it doesn't mean I wouldn't try to talk someone out of it and tell them as a friend what I think but if they disagree, then I cannot stop them because they have to live and die with the consequences.
The other forgotten clause to abortions and why I vote pro-choice is because if it isn't allowed then some woman take it upon themselves to get them anyways in unsterilized facilities or shall I give you a very horrid image... a coat hanger and they do it themselves.
Maybe you would feel then that they deserved to die from infections because what they were doing was wrong but most of them are children doing this to themselves.
If my daughter did this to herself because she couldn't at least go to a doctor, then I would lose twice and it would break my heart because I cannot say that I love both the same, because I don't love the one I have never met more than my own daughter.
Maybe it is the mother in me, maybe I would go to hell for it, I don't know but I would never allow something that preventable to happen to my own kid. Because you and I and everyone else knows that 'we' don't have control over our kids when they are not within our reach.
We can holler, scream, teach, forbid, condemn all we want to but it will not change a persons will from doing what they feel must be done. You just can't and those are the hard cold facts of life that I am sure God is very aware of.
Who here is only concerned with their own personal pursuit of happiness? I certainly am not. I actually want society to be a more accepting and loving place in which we look out for our fellow citizens.
Like Sandra said, you can be liberal but have some non-liberal beliefs. Not everyone believes the same things about everything.
And you are thinking of libertines...most people are not like that.
But there ARE definite rights and wrongs in it, as well as in the entire world. From there, I can only make decisions to the best of my ability. But the definites HAVE to remain in place; otherwise, I'm lost. As is anyone else.
Not so much. Wrong thinking -highlight thinking. Consciousness of right/wrong is not the problem. Consciousness IS the problem.
Any true believer will tell you that, else they are propagandists for the law of sin and death, of which they are quite familiar.
Faith-Grace is beyond needing and needing to know the difference. This is that childlike faith. Belief without question. No question, no problem and hence no need for consequence or judgment for knowing right/wrong aka sin.
But I do know that selfishness, prideful greed, is where original sin came from. Satan started it. 1/3 of the other angels followed it. Mankind fell into temptation of it. And only God/Jesus brought the redemption for it.
the sin of adam ( mankind ) was accepting something less than was given to him, by the Creator -Elohim. The sin wasn't disobedience, sin came before that moment.
man didn't fall into temptation he became THAT temptation. it is in the book -read it again.
do you know Lucifer's sin? do you also know that he was defeated - done finished at the moment Y`shua entered Sheol? Yet millions of you are seeking him out and blaming him for your own HaSatan. It is your own conscious seared that brings charges against you in the heavens. For that adversary you blame was brought to nothing.
I always pictured Jesus just walking around talking to his desciples and when a crowd gathered he talked louder, that they could hear. I do not recall any stories that he played the Cary Nations routine. The only time that he did he was in the temple. It is too bad that the forums can't be like that. I'm with Sandra on the rights for the woman to choose on the abortion isue. That is between her and her God. Is it better to make the young Girl have the baby and then neglect, or aduse the child while they live in poverty because she had to cut her education short to take care of a baby that she did not want. We should; instead of judging anyone; think to our selves, except for the grace of God that could be me.
The way you talk in here is always in black and white, no grey.
The fact that gay people exist does not affect my life in any way, shape or form. It is not up to me to say they do not have the right to live their lives they way they do. Women used to be expected to get married and have children and not vote and not work. Times change, society evolves. The more we understand about human psychology, the less we can control how people live their lives.
I was raised Separate Baptist, but have visited different denominations.
I believe the Bible is self-explanatory for the most part for a Christian who reads it with Spiritual eyes; and the parts that need studied are easily reconciled in the same way.
As far as influence, everyone has a conscience they should go by. Most Churches I've been to, or been a member of, are based on solid Biblical teachings, although anyone can be in error at times. And they have a burden for lost souls, which is the MAIN reason for Churches, or should be.
And I've been to churches that were ...just wrong in their focus too. One of them, not too long ago, was where the Pastor spoke racial crap and unnecessary insulting things in the middle of an otherwise-very-good message. I haven't been back to that one. That kind of preaching is a tool of the devil.
Then we might as well throw out all our legal system. Even the laws against theft, rape, assault, murder....
Don't tell me a community or nation can't legislate morality, Jerami. It's done every day via those laws I just mentioned, and others. And ergo don't tell me we cannot "impose morals" upon anyone according to God's Laws, as well as those mentioned.
This is a good response. Certainly society, via its laws, should impose certain morals, or ethical standards, on those who would not follow them otherwise. That is true. In fact, I find the whole abortion thing a little dubious (ie, I think there might be an argument for it being morally wrong), and I am in general what you would call a liberal! (I guess).
But you yourself said elsewhere that a don't ask don't tell policy on homosexuality is how you would approach the topic if you were governing.
Beyond this, you cannot muzzle people, gays included, and forbid them from participating in public discourse. This is a PRIMARY AMERICAN VALUE... FREEDOM OF SPEECH. This, beyond perhaps all other things, is what makes America different from Communist or Fascist countries... freedom to speak out, freedom of debate, freedom of association, and freedom of the press. Without these things we are all doomed. And not in the way you usually think about... instead, here, now, on earth.
I was speaking on a personal level. Yes we can vote. We can express our opinions. But we can not impose our morals upon anyone else. The proabition should have taught us something. Ya caint legislate against stupid. We can make little impact upon the world until we clean our own house first. Jesus said that he came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was attempting to clean his own house, he didn't seem to be that intrested in the outside world at that time. If he had been able to do that it would have been a bright example for the rest of the world. And things would be diffrent.
If "everyone would" worry about their own deamons each and every one of us; the world would be a much better place.
Part of the freedom of public discourse should, of course, have boundaries.
For instance, libs may call freedom of expression the right to walk around naked in public. But there are innocent children who also have the right to be in public. So adult accountability/responsibility is called for there.
EVERYBODY cannot have total "freedom" at the same time!
Ergo there MUST BE moral ground rules.
The liberal agenda of today in America is becoming very nasty, having little or no accountability.
Well....my main intent isn't whether or not America is doomed "here on earth"!
It profits nothing for a man to gain the whole world, yet lose his soul....
Believe it or not I agree with the spirit of what you have written here. I also agree, I think, that in many ways there is a "liberal" bias to modern American mainstream culture (though I do NOT extend this to the news... but that's a different topic. Don't forget ALL of the mainstream networks called a Bush victory over Gore.... But I digress.)
From that point of view your perspective makes sense (sort of). In other words, if I was a Christian conservative, I would probably be asking, like you, why (generally) secular, liberal social norms should be spread through America and not, say, Christian conservatve norms?...
...In short, who decides? To be clear, as I am sure you know, in general I SUPPORT liberal norms and standards (not as many as perhaps you might think, but in general). But the question as to why these norms should hold sway over a different set of norms is a good one.
I imagine it is a complex sociological question, but presumably a short answer is during the nineteen sixties. I wasn't around then , but perhaps we can blame it on the Beatles , or Elvis... Not sure I'm qualified, overall, to answer though
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