This morning, I wept.
Awakening to news of the Israeli attack on the aid flotilla, a sense of outrage I’d tried to forget welled up inside me, and reminded me of a good friend, also senselessly targeted by Israeli forces.
I wept for Abu Sahla. A young father with a gift for insight into people and one of the gentlest men i've known.
Like much of the Palestinian diaspora, he was bright, urbane and cultured. A chemist by training, he studied in Switzerland and Australia, where I came to know him.
In 2008, his mother – stranded in Gaza – became ill. At the end of her productive life, and a stateless, politically toxic Palestinian, she could not escape the territories to live out her remaining years in the comfort and dignity we all hope for ourselves, and our loved ones in their old age. Her utilitarian benefit as a citizen spent, she could not afford our “decency,” as a refugee, and so Abu Sahla returned to Gaza to care for her.
Escaping the territories is an extraordinarily difficult task – akin to breaking out of prison. The fact that he was ready to forfeit his own freedom for his mother’s wellbeing spoke volumes about the type of man he was.
We still don’t know what the soldiers at the checkpoint were looking for the day when they removed Abu Sahla from the hopelessly long queue. Maybe they were looking for the same answers that the rest of us were searching for. The answer to the absurdity of a situation that puts automatic weapons in the hands of 18 year old Israeli soldiers, and asks the people who they point them at to be mindful – first and foremost – of the Israeli’s security.
Maybe his beard marked him as an Islamist. Maybe his background as a professional chemist had marked him as a potential bomb-maker. Maybe the interrogation became physical and escalated beyond the “standard” level of physicality. We will never know.
Whatever the soldiers were looking for that day, he did not have it, and they did not find it. The last anyone ever saw of Abu Sahla was as he was removed to the checkpoint for what we assume was questioning.
He was a good, humanitarian man. He was my friend. He did not deserve to disappear. His family deserved answers.
I wept for Sahla – apple of her father’s eye – the small daughter he left behind. I wept for the hope she had for a better future that disappeared with him inside that answerless, concrete box at the checkpoint.
I wept for Amina, his wife. In the poverty and fear of Gaza, the world’s largest open air prison, they were happier than most couples with everything – and for that, I envied them.
He was a good man. He escaped. He had a future.
He cared too much. He came back. And now he is dead.
I wept for the logic of a conflict that inverts the traits we normally consider blessings – love, loyalty, kindness and intelligence – and turns them into liabilities.
I wept for the peace his death will not bring closer. For, in death, he joins the ranks of the martyrs – mute testimony to the senselessness of the conflict, but used like political currency by which ever political faction-du-jour has decided that red is the new black.
And then to wake up to these events most recently…
I want to scream. I want to scream until the skin on my face boils and my lungs collapse.
I want to scream at the waste of it all. At the insanity of a conflict which takes good, decent, honourable men and makes them more useful dead than alive.
I want to scream at a conflict that hides the obscene truth of that insanity behind maps and graphs and lobby groups and UN Resolutions and press releases.
I want to scream at the senseless fixation with the past that is so single-minded in its obsession that it chews up great chunks of the future before it has even happened.
I want to scream at the hate I feel for myself for wanting to tune out from the outrage, to forget the faces and the names and the tiny, empty shoes. I want to scream at the hate that is so overpowering it affects even those who observe it.
I want to scream every four-letter, single-syllable word ever conceived to express the obscenity of it all, and it doesn’t even come close.
And in the end, it doesn’t even matter. There’s only one three-letter word that matters anymore:
To those who support Israel, justify yourself.
Find me the words that will make all of this better. Find me the words to tell the families of those whose greatest crime was to give a damn about their fellow human being. Find me the words that will make up for what you have taken away. Find me the words that will replace a son for his mother.
This is not rhetorical. Tell me.
All of you armchair generals and part-time Zionists: tell me about the price of freedom and the cost of war while kinder, gentler and better men, pay them.
Tell me WHY so I can tell myself.
That is sad. There's a personal story (many personal stories) behind every action in times of military/national conflict.
But maybe you should ask for answers from the Palestinian activists/terrorists who hide behind and within the guise of "humanitarian means" and those who hide them and lend them support.
Don't worry Brenda... one day China will bring world peace and tolerance for all peoples of the world... ahh the dream...
Sorry ilmdamaily. So much hatred. What can we do against such reckless hate. I don't know when and how this will end.
You expressed your pain like the loved ones of almost 3000 innocents did after 9/11.
You expressed your pain like the loved ones of millions of innocent Jews felt during the holocaust.
You expressed your pain like the loved ones of millons of innocents who died horribly during the 1000 yrs of the dark ages when roman catholicism ruled.
Your pain has been felt by countless numbers of those who lost loved ones during the asininity of human predation.
You expressed their feelings well.
The answer to the question "WHY" is simple: Man is a genetically, bestial creature. It's just his nature!
His nature will not change in our lifetime.
The opinions of those who are not directly involved, and do nothing to affect the situation, do not matter. I am American and our government is notoriously Israel biased, but most of the common citizenry do not have an opinion one way, or another, because it doesn't affect them. Those of us who care enough to realize the truth of the situation still do not understand the gravity of what you are going through. Anyone can offer an opinion. It doesn't change the truth.
It affects me because it affects my husband. His grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc live in Israel.
What am I suppose to do about it?
You're not directly involved are you? Does your opinion also not matter?
What is TRUTH to you?
This was heart rending Ilm. But it's not the words, it's your pain that comes through. I'm afraid the only answer you will get is more hatred spewed out, so I hope the memory of your friend stays intact in your mind. May he rest in peace. I wish his family well and just want you to know I understand....
Thank you MOW - I really appreciate that.
I'm so fatigued by the carnage and the hate. This just has to stop...and I seriously think that non-violence is the only avenue left.
The armed struggle, while an understandable knee-jerk reaction, has been an unmitigated failure in the effort to give Palestinians some sense of self-determination.
The only course of action left is to put the weapons down, look the oppressor in the eye, and ask why.
They can respond with words or bullets - but the question must not be silenced.
I agree ilm. Non- violence is the only answer. In between the supporters of war...and the extremist muslims, there are millions of ordinary, peace loving people - innocent children, women and men, who're bearing the brunt of all this hatred and 'tit for tat' mind set. I myself traveled far and wide looking for an answer and that is the only one I found : That the common man on the street - the average american or the average muslim anywhere is fed up of war and just wants a safe normal life.
Sometimes, I think for every act of injustice in the world, every life lost, how wonderful it could be if everyone did something positive in reaction somewhere else - no, not carry arms, or retaliate, but just went out and fed a child, or set up a school, or donate some blood to a cancer patient. Just any simple act of kindness in return for a cruel one. Perhaps, in that lies the answer.
That's a beautiful perspective MOW.
I had a similar thought myself, not that long ago. I think it was provoked by one of those frequent-but-horrific news stories, about someone committing an extreme act of random violence against a stranger.
The thought of course ocurred that what if people commit equally extreme acts of random kindness? Not just small though, but really, genuinely extreme. Build a house for someone, share your last meal with someone, teach a language, donate a kidney.
Well, I might be a bit slow on the kidney one - but i'm working on the others:-)
I think that's what it'll take really...and i'll happily endorse "extremism" in that circumstance:-)
There's a little part of my own personal philosophy that dovetails into that: when it comes to life and love, never keep count. If people only realised that they'll never run out of love...then maybe they'd be a bit freer with their kindnesses.
Keep the faith MOW!
That's beautiful, MOW I like your take on this and the idea of countering evil with good. Let love and goodness prevail. Defeat darkness with light. It is so HARD to keep loving in the midst of it all, but love IS ultimately more powerful.
And yeah, "the common man on the street." Somehow THAT voice must one day prevail. We ARE fed up with all fighting parties. And, human beings being "only human," there will obviously be plenty of hate and bad things done by many on all sides.
One thing I think is important to remember (and keeping this in mind is an "act of love" itself) is that to oversimplify and argue that one side is completely evil and the other completely good, and immediately judge any action of the other side as bad, without having all the facts, is to further entrench the other side and create a self-fulfilling prophecy. After hearing interviews with many parties involved, I am not sure at all the latest incident is an Israeli atrocity. It just doesn't feel that way...I believe if those on the flotilla truly, only wanted to provide aid, they would have complied with Israel's request to search the ships for weapons, before they left. What did they have to lose? It does feel like they, may have wanted to bait Israel into a controversy to gin up hate against Israel. Does that mean I support Israel? No!!! Nor do I support any side, not having studied it. I am not a student of the whole situation, but I do recognize that it is not a clear case of "anytime any conflict occurs, Israel is automatically in the wrong. It seems like that attitude is a real weapon for those wishing to do damage to Israel--all you have to do is rile Israel forces and the world automatically judges Israel to be in the wrong.
I am absolutely for doing kind things to counter the hate, wherever it may exist. I think the kindest thing we can do is to recognize all parties involved in all their complexities, and truly want only to serve, only to love. Even those we are supposed to be against. We, "the common man" MUST prevail!
I feel for your loss, ilmdamaily. I would be mad beyond words, myself. I admire you for wanting to use love as your answer to your pain and anger. Prayers for you. In honor of you and all involved with the pain over there (I'm in America) I promise you I will pray and try to give what I can to be a blessing which counters hate.
I teared up at your words. I'm fed up with politics overshadowing all humanity. Human beings were surely made for something higher than that. The ordinary people in between ....american, israeli, muslim....suffering at the hands of extremists on either side of the argument....yes, my heart will always be with them. It's anyway, exhausting talking to people so full of hatred and anger. Take care... and I hope your words comfort ilm too...
I don't have to justify myself or Isreal just because you want to whip out some pity story. There are tragedies on both sides... that doesn't change the facts. Islam and it's adherants plan the destruction of Irael. Many of thier nieghbors also plan thier destruction and many radical groups supported and assisted by those Govts. plan the same...
None of the pitiable dribble about a cherry-picked incident changes that.
I don't pity Abu Sahla, TMMason - I mourn him.
He was good, humanitarian man with so many of the qualities I lack. I miss him, as does his family.
Pity, I reserve for you. Unable to appreciate the pain that Israel has caused his family, you choose instead to slander him by demeaning his memory as "pitiable dribble."
Such an absence of humanity I cannot hate or be stirred by - only saddened. I hope you never, ever have to lose someone in that way TMMason. Moreover, I hope noone will ever refer to thier memory as "pitaible dribble."
Abu Sahla is just one example. There are others. But at some point we have to stop holding on to the pain of losing our loved ones, and start holding on to their memory.
There is a central, human truth here TMMason. Try to find it.
What is pitiable dribble is a leftist slingin pity stories as usual trying blame all on Israel.
People die in war zones... you chose to go there and interject yourself into it... then you may get hurt or killed. And I have lost loved ones in war, uniformed and civillian, so don't act like your pain is so unique as to be beyond my understanding.
What is a joke is someone useing someone's memory, to play the "ooh pity us" card... that is what is sad.
Your response is a prime example of what i'm referring to: the politicisation of humanity. Rather than confront the simple, black tradgedy of this and the aid flotilla incident, you begin tilting at windmills - blaming a "leftist" conspiracy (what is that by the way? I'm not in the US, nor do my views conform to standard political divisions), accusing me of playing the "ooh pity us card."
You even decline to attempt to justify the actions in this instance - as though You say you have lost loved ones in conflict: My heart goes out to you. You must have wanted some sense of purpose or justification in their deaths or suffering, certainly. And I would hope that you found it. No-one should be left to deal with the death of a loved one in deliberate circumstances without having some sense that it was "worth it."
Why can you not provide the same to the victims in this instance?
Why can you not concede the inherent value of human life? Israeli or otherwise?
The fact of the matter is that Abu Sahla's "death" (and I use quotation marks here because his death was never confirmed independently - he was disappeared) is immediately tied up in the circumstances of the conflict. His family cannot pretend that he just "died by accident." There is an open wound there, a sense of justice denied.
The Israeli Defence Force are not a force of nature. He didn't die in a fire, earthquake or other accidental tradgedy. His life was extinguished purposely, and maliciously. That needs justification.
The challenge of my post remains unanswered: what words can you find that will make this right? What would you tell his family, or the families of the flotilla victims?
I don't understand what is so threatening about this. Answer that question and your position will be infinitely stronger - if there is a benefit to all of this suffering that nobody has seen before, then you will certainly be doing a community service by raising it to our collective attention.
I told you... there is no justification neccesary.
Well, TM says "no justification necessary." That settles it.
I don't have to justify my position, or Israel's actions.
I told you posting pity and trying to equate that to the ill of the Israel story is retarded.
If no one likes that then...
You got it...
Why don't you justify what gives those people the right to run that blockade... and then in thier arrogance get those 9 people killed.
it is thier own fault.... tooo bad.
Tell me..what does Islam know about humanity?
You use that word only when you are speaking of your people.
To you (Islam) everyone else is unimportant and non-human.
TMMason - before writing this, I went and read all six of your hubs (and don't worry, I didn't flag or thumb-down any, because I don't do that). I just wanted to know a little more about the person behind the messages I was reading.
I think you are not coping well with the modern world. You have retreated into an imaginary world of them and us, where 'us' is in fact just you, and your carefully nurtured hatred for everyone who doesn't conform to something so narrow it barely exists.
Though not myself a Christian, I see nothing in your writings to suggest that you have remotely understood the example of your professed saviour.
I hope you find peace.
About ten minutes ago I was asking myself why the US and the UK governments are the only world authorities to fail to condemn the Isreali actions, and you have just made me realise why. Two countries full to the brim of filthy ugly ignorants.
I do so agree.
Islam has skipped over all the senseless barbaric atrocities they have committed on innocent people. Slow beheadings of business (non-military) men, with dull knifes.
Justify myself? I will side with Israel every time.
Now you justify yourself.
Nobody needs to justify anything. There is loss of life on every side. Words and stories don't change anything.
Killing people in international waters HAS to be justified.
I'm not a diplomat nor a war strategist.
But one side has to do something about it. And that's Israel, the USA and all the ones that support them
This is going beyond the issue of land now, and looking at the hatred and hidden attacks that Israel is receiving there is nothing different they'll do if they've got this power. Showing mercy in this age on such hatred filled people will lead them to their own destruction.
We're supposed to, in effect, "close our borders", which common-sense people are trying to do in the USA and in Israel. But the terrorists keep finding ways to lob their rockets and/or their provocation against the sovreignty of both.
When your religious politics have finally turned everyone against America, destroyed your economy and handed the world No1 spot to China everything will calm down and these issues may start ot get sorted in a peaceful way. Then, when you have been forced to cut your war spending to a defensive level, like almost everyone else in the world, most of the aggression, hatred and mindless wars will just stop.
Yes China will bring peace to the world... PLEASE... are you for real?
That just shows the mentallity America is dealing with today. Our economy has been destroyed by supporting leechlike economies all over the world.
We would do better to close our borders and restrict our trade and manufacturing to our own allies, and I know of very few, and our own country.
No - your economy has been destroyed by the greed of your own bankers in collusion with your own government, oh yes and illegal wars to try to keep a dominant postion over oil supplies so that your profiteers can continue to milk you dry.
China has already proved its patience and tolerance around the world, and it has armed forces that are clearly defensive - unlike your out of your mind level of spending which is currently half of the whole world spending.
You have to look to yourself for your own destruction of your own greed based economy. and by the way thank the Chinese for bailing you out.
I didn't ask anyone to bail anything out... so don't hold your breath waiting for that thank you.
And china is not a tolerant country... another bit of your wisdom eh? You have a warped view tolerant.
And neither of the wars in the past decade have been for oil... if so where is it?
That is the same lame ass excuse you all been pukin out for years now... it for the oil... whaaaa..
All the evidence so far shows that China is far more tolerant than the US in international matters. I don't see them rampaging around killing people in other countries for no reason except personal gain for somebody or other. They have their internal bad issues like Tibet and XingJiang - the US has its own in its border areas with Mexico, Cuba, South America etc, the UK has Ireland - I don't see China doing any worse and occasionally doing very much better. Nobody has suggested or shown that China runs illegal concentration camps where they torture political prisoners. They have been known to overstep the mark with police torture and corruption, but to balance that I see they shot a police chief for just that last month so they are doing something about it.
To the contrary: everyone must justify their actions, and even more so when those actions involve harm to another person.
We are obligated to each other in mercy.
Factions, race or religion change nothing about it.
I write here about the palestinian position because it is what I have most experience with, and the pain I felt then resonated closely with the outrage I felt this morning.
This in no way demeans or devalues the suffering or pain of an Israeli family.
There is more than enough sadness to go around.
Everyone can justify their actions, but it depends on how rational action is to begin with else there is no point in justifying any action. Point is that people die when leaders of country try to justify their action,be it any side. People at higher position are not always answerable to the things when people at lower position suffer.
I can't wait till there is finally peace over there, where both peoples can live and get along without worrying about war.
Spot on Origin.
The sad thing is, the answer is so mind-breakingly simple, yet so far away: put down the guns.
If everyone could just calm down and stop the harm, we'd be there.
Thanks for the comment mate.
Indeed the answer is so incredibly simple. Treat people with justice and mercy, respect others even when they differ from you, and amazing things might happen, like the need for the guns just might disappear.
I find it incredible that people don't respond to the heartrendingly human story you have shared here and respond instead with propagandistic rants.
Thanks so much for putting a human face onto this sad situation which need not be.
I respect you and your friend Abu. I can't answer your question because I don't believe there is an answer. The only response to such situations is the response of suffering love.
All one can do is to continue to call forth the humanity in people by empathising and respecting them, even when they don't respect you. We have to get past the stage of throwing insults and slogans at each other and start to understand and respect each other. Without that war and violence will continue in its senseless destructive way.
There is no doubt in my mind that Israel has a right to be there, but so do the Palestinians who were, after all, evicted from their land to make way for Israel. But neither side has the right to behave inhumanly, and unfortunately both sides have.
The reason Israel in my view has to bear the bigger responsibility in all this is that it has more support and more power. Israel has to make the first and more costly moves to make peace happen. But I fear that they would rather continue to throw their weight around and make others suffer more than they do.
I could go on but just want to say to you, I am with you in spirit at least. Your humanity and love shine through your words.
hear hear !! well put. Thanks for posting this, I guess it speaks for most people on here.
words like these inspire.... as do yours ilm. Drivel is those spewing out hatred and intolerance.
Focus on positivity.... and take care...
You know you can focus all you want on peace... but when the enemy is at your door with weapons and the intent to kill you and yours. then it is time to defend yourself and your people and country.
Israel has tried to have peace, and they, Palistine and the Islamic nations surrounding Israel, have spat in the jews face.
You can cry about peace all you want... crying doesn't solve any of the real problems. And talking till your blue in the face at someone who is armed and wants to kill you, is not a healthy tactic in the real world.
Can killings solve it then TM? It was a massacre
Lives are precious TM, and so the child and all the children which are left behind as their parents are killed.
There is no winner here, the children are the ones who will suffer, and instead of extending condolences, you think killings in this sense is justified isn't it,
People everywhere even in Europe are reacting to this, embassies are threatened etc. this cause more chaos
I am appalled by your response TM
it is a fact.. that sometinmes it takes violence to stop violent people.
Hiding your head in the sand crying about peace doesn't stop the men with the machine guns.
Appalling or not it is a fact. Peace is not always the answer.
And what doesn't cause more Islams to riot and scream death to Israel?
It wouldn't matter what Israel did to stop them, they would be in the wrong and the muslims would be screaming anyways.
we aren't talking about the instigators of violence here ( on either side) but the innocent people caught in between. It's their indiscriminate killing that we're dead against. It's like for one Sadam Hussein, a whole country is shelled; it's pounding the entire gaza strip because of extremist Hamas....it's bombing thousands of innocent people in order to catch that one taliban hiding in between them....it's invading country after country in order to make your own one safe.... it's taking thousands of life in revenge for one lost....and then dismissing it all as 'collateral damage'!
Yes.... it's this attitude that will never put an end to the hatred and suffering that has been going on for years because people like you feel this IS the only answer left...yes, that is the real sad part.
The funny thing is that with the unaltering support of Israel from the US is what set us up for all the trouble we are experiencing now.
Demonizing the enemy is the only tactic in their arsenal which breeds the fear and action Israel wants.
Such a waste.
Thanks for the comment Tony.
I certainly expected some controversy when I posted it - which is fine. This, more than most issues generates controversy. And I can accept the different views that people have on this. I guess I didn't count on the resilliently ignorant positions of some (well, one in particular - and it's fairly obvious who to anyone who reads the thread) person being so blatant in their disresepct of life as to assert that the actions did not even need justification.
Perspectives on the middle east conflict need to move past the "right to exist" and get to acknowledging the inherent "right to dignity" that each side posesses. Each side has done plenty to the other in the past - but both have the same opportunity to do ANYTHING in the future: including ending this cycle of hate.
That is indeed a beautiful concept Tony - very well put. Thanks for the comments.
Both sides lose people, both sides start wars, both sides feel that it's their lands. I can see it going on for another thousand years. Hopefully one day there will be some sort of peace over there.
Oh don't let the leftist drivel fool you... they may be vocal but plenty on here and in the world support Israel.
Yes, that, and the way he sees the world as left/right. A few people have a vested interest in keeping the tired old left/right fight alight, so we all fight among ourselves while they screw us all. It's time to leave all that behind.
The political pundits seem to have found a way to gridlock us with these polarizing tactics and carry on unfeterred by the electorate.
Perhaps the anger is bred by frustration that is the crux of the matter and that until they can get on top of it their evolution has to run it's course.
It is ashame that the only species on earth with dominion over their actions choose to become automatons for their keepers.
When the ones I refer to as leftists stop acting and spouting leftists talking pionts then i will differentiate between them and the others. but if it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck... then?
Also... I am an American. There are not many countrries in this world where a political party is considered "right" to us.
when Israeli commandos attack a civilian ships in the middle of the international waters and kill 20 unarmed civilians people just wanted to help a starving people and offer humanitarian aids . simply i call it a crime against humanity ,Savagery and Piracy .
Israel is known as an outlaw country under protection of USA.
let's say the victims were Americans and the Assassin was Arabian country, what would happened ?
It is a supposedly activist humanitarian mission, which is in doubt.
And again... they should have stopped... or gone through the proper port of entry.
They decided to go through the blockade... and they new what the result would be.
The left needs to figure out that the rules and laws apply to all. You don't get to cross borders, or blockades, as if they don't exist.
Why don't you all cry about the leftys in Iran being held as spys. Palastine has made its bed and any who want to crawl under the sheets with them will get the bed bugs also.
Again... too bad.
It's pretty clear to me...Israel wants Palestinian land, and they're killing them off to get it!
And what do they say...they were there first...the land belongs to them?
Kind of like La Raza huh?
Who were, after all, here first. And now want their land back.
The irony is really something.
Here's all these tighy-righty's screaming about the durdy mexicans coming here and stealing their country, while at the same time thinking it's just fine and dandy for Israel to do the same in the Midle East!
And you know what a good rule of thumb is with the Zionists? I gleaned this from watching el Bushbo....
Anything he say's-- pretty much the opposite is true.
Anything derogatory he says about a supposed enemy really applies to him.
(it's called mirror programming, and we are under it--big time!)
So when they say Iran wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map...what they really mean is we are wiping Palestinians off the face of the earth, but look over there!
See? Simple. And deadly. And venomous.
btw...google "did mossad create hamas?"...you will be surprised.
The motto of Israel's spy agency, Mossad, is, according to recently defected Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky: "By way of deception thou shalt do war."
If those aide workers were violent, you can bet they were mossad!!!
Posing as hamas.
Think that's crazy? Crazy like a fox!
lovemychris already sounds like an Democrat bot.
Like La'Raza... hahaha... You never cease to crack me up chrs...
And I haven't heard any righty on here refer to mexicans as, durdy -dirty-... that would be you in your rants chrs...
Care to deal with the issue instead of your overwhelming love for me?
Do you think it's fine for Israel to wipe out Palestinians from their homeland so they can hand it over to settlers from New York?
And your tax dollars pay for this btw....yeah, that money that you so desperately hate giving up to fellow Americans in need.
I am a full supporter of the right of Israel to exist as a country and to possess the lands of Canaan.
There is no issue for me, as you see it. Because I do not see it as you.
As for my overwhelming love for you, chrs... I am glad it shines thru...
One day you will figure it out and stop spouting the leftists anti-American talking points.
And I think it is a pretty important fact that you state right wingers say things, they never have... that is some serious deception and trikery on your part. Just like the left to lie about someone saying something.... then back track to the, oh but... but...
Show me where anyone from the right called mexicans dirty people on here.
They haven't, and you owe the right an apology.
You may be a full supporter of the right of Isreal to exist, but what about the right of the state of Palistine to exist? Not to just exist, but for the inhabitants of that open air prison to be free to open trade routes, to obtain the food and medical supplies needed to survive? What right does any human being have to deprive other human beings of that basic human need?
Your president claims to support the two state solution. Right now he appears to be supporting the one state, and one filthy pit of oppression.
All most people want is for the state of Palistine to be free to self govern and do its best for the palistinian population. What right does Isreal have to deprive an entire race of the right to freedom?
Isreal is currently the closest thing that this world has to the fascist Nazi regime. Support that if you wish, but my ancestors died to free the world of this BS and now people are dying to protect the world of its liberties and freedoms once more.
The one war that I would be willing to fight is a war against Isreal. I mean it too, I would join a military if it was fighting Isreal.
The democractically elected state government of the state of Palistine? Can't see a problem with that. Only in the UK, US, Isreal, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Ireland are Hamas seen as a terrorist organisation. Everybody else sees them as an elected state government, just like Obama and his Democrats, which they no doubt are.
I beg your pardon.
In fact, the UK and Australia only classify the military wing of Hamas to be a terrorist organisation.
Whilst the EU, Canada, US, Isreal and Japan classify the whole of the Hamas as a terrorist organisaton.
The rest of the world have no opinion.
What are the "lands of Canaan?" Do they include Gaza and the West Bank? All of Jerusalem? Israel has attracting fanatical Jews from Russia and elsewhere and building settlements for them on Palistinian land for some time, ignoring previously established boundaries.
According to Wikipedia Canaan encompasses Lebanon, part of Egypt, Jordan and all of Palestine. You are nuts, TM.
Canaan (Phoenician: Canaan (Phoenician:
If you know what the borders for Canaan were... then why ask me. Yes all of Canaan belongs to Israel and the Jews.
Just wait... when I am president Israel will really be unleashed.
When you are president half of America will emmigrate.
yes the 20% which is left... and the illegals.
The illegals which underpin your economy. The simple fact is that white America does not want to break their back for Taco Bell, cheap labour does it for them. Who gives work to the illegals? Middle class housewives who want an affordable nanny, middle class farmers who want affordable farm hands.
I think that you must be within the top 3% most bigoted people I have met online or offline. Your whole brain is mush.
"Yes all of Canaan belongs to Israel and the Jews."
Even Netanyahoo doesn't make that ridiculous claim.
When do all the Jews convert to Christianity and usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ in your version of the story?
Where would you get that? I have never stated all the jews are going to be converted to Christianity.
White America... what a joke. Those illegals are not all working menial labor for bottom dollar. many of them are in unions and do construction and roofing for top dollar. At least what is top dollar after they undercut the wages for that area of employment.
Get over it ry... just because Americans want the illegals to go home and come back legally, doesn't make us racists.
As I stated before it is the racists and the bigots who turn everything into a race issue... so stop hating people just cause of thier color...
Stop hating people because of their colour? I may look a little tanned in my photo, since I was on holiday in Spain, but last time I checked I was completely white
Yes. And I know black people who hate blacks, and white people who hate the white race, also. I have met spanish people who cannot stand other spanish people. You don't have top be a different color to hate that race.
You have serious issue against the white people in America... i think it is white guilt. you seem about that age to have been indoctrinated by the leftist elite acdemia... and you certainly spew the retoric.
You know there is a cure for the White Guilt. It is called reading unrevised history and seeing that your race isn't all that bad. That we may have even done some great things in our time.
Nevermind... I just looked at your profile. Your from the UK, there is no hope for you. I wondered why you would think FDR was right wing. to Europe anything socailist is right wing... commies are left.
I got it now.
Throughout this entire conversation I have not used the phrases 'Left Wing' or 'Right Wing' just like I have not discussed Islam or Judiasm or Christianity. Perhaps time for a nap? You can read this entire thread if you wish, it is you who has made clear your hatred of 'the left' and of islam. Well I am neither Muslim or Socialist, so don't be afraid. I am in fact a middle ground athiest, or does that scare you more?
If you knew anything about the UK you would know that last month, in May, the 'left' was replaced in government by a coalition government mainly consisting of the 'right'. This followed a general election of course.
Cue public sector redundancies, spiralling unemployment, a draconian welfare system, increasing taxes, falling education and healthcare budgets. Yiiiippppeeee..... Hooray for the right
The right in england ois left, it is far from the right in America.... not even close.
Perhaps you should learn about American politics.
And you don't have to bring up left or right.... your words speak for you.
And my point about Islam, is that your awfully quick to blame Israel... but have not once taken Islam and palistine to task for thier actions.
just like a true leftist.
You may be "right", in your country, or "middle ground", but it is all left compared to here.
Do you know anything about British politics? The last strong Conservative leader in Britian was Margaret Thatcher, you realise that her economic policies and ideals were mirrored exactly with those of Ronald Reagan?
So Ronald Reagan was 'right', but Maggie Thatcher was not? Ha, ludicrious. We were the 51st State throughout the eighties.
There is a right wing in the UK, you will see it soon, unfortunately.
No, I think it's your problem of some kind. Not sure what kind because I'm not trained to make that kind of diagnosis.
You are always taking up for Islam. Why don't you consider moving there.
Why don't you consider moving to Israel ?
But I don't want to be taken by the barbaric Islamic terrorist and beheaded.
See your note to me. You ask "have you CONSIDERED it"
Hey Ryan, it would be nice if you didn't categorize the US as ignorant. You are in no position to know what the U.S. knows about Israel or any other Country for that matter. You calling the U.S. government ignorant is a loaded statement in itself. I am sure that there are plenty of governments around the world that manipulate their way through the mess known as politics.
As for the UK government, I'm pretty sure that they are not ignorant either.
Just a thought.
There are 195 countries in this world and 3 who have not formally condemned the behaviour of Isreal in recent days. Isreal being one of course.
That embarresses me. Why? Because we are allies of Isreal? Isreal had many allies just five years ago, yet just two remain. If my government wants to remain an ally of a fascist regime, then it is my right to call them ignorant.
As for your government, I guess that is your problem.
Please show me where you find the condemnation from 192 countries?
I have heard of quite a few condemning it... but no where near all the world.
Do you rail against Islam for thier inate warring mentallity? They are involved in more than 96% of all conflicts world-wide. So are they also to be condemned by you?
And I agree, Obama and his administration are ignorant asses.
You seem to be a bit confused. I am not condemning a religion, I am condeming the actions of a state government. This has nothing to do with religion in the eyes of the intelligient and compassionate, this has everything to do with one group of human beings denying the basic human rights of another group of human beings. Being an athiest, religion has no bearing whatsoever on any opinion that I form.
No you are confused.
I understand your statement about Israel... I am asking if your willing to sling your logic around at islam for it's own war tendencies in the same fashion.
Simple question... and where are the stats of 192 countries condemning Israel?
What is ignorant in America are the teens and twenty somethings thinking they know it all because thier HS teachers or UNIV professors tell them some hogwash leftist history and view-point. And then they think they sound smart repeating it and hating thier own country and it's allies. When in fact it shows just how lil and unrealistic thier knowledge is.
The only member states of the UN not to formally condemn the attacks were the US and the UK.
Every member of the Arab League condemned the attack.
Russia, China and France are close to pushing for military action to end blockades. That happens to be the other 'big three'.
Again I reiterate, this is not about religion. The fact that Palistine is an Islamic state bears no relevance to me whatsoever. The Isreali government are preventing essential supplies from reaching the inhabitants of Palistine.
Without those supplies many will die. I have no comment to make regarding, particularly generalisations about, the religious demographics of either countries. I am an athiest, I don't care for religion, I care only for welfare.
The Isreali's have continuously vetoed Palistinian compromises, all that the world wants to see is that the Palistinian people are provided with food and medicine to feed their hungry and heal their sick.
Anybody who doesn't want that is sick themselves.
Palistine gets plenty of aide.
All those idiots had to do was stop to be searched. They chose not to.... too bad. They got what was coming to them.
Palistine does not get "plenty of aid", building materials are banned, meaning that they cannot rebuild their schools or their hospitals.
Hamas, that big bad 'terrorist organisation', spend 90% of their paltry revenues on social services - such as education and hospitals.
Isreal will only allow aid by road, roads cannot provide enough aid. Imagine a world without boats, and then imagine the scarcity of fresh food. Perhaps not in America, but in the UK we would have no fruit, we would probably get disease as a result.
The sick are dying, children are starving, millions are refugees. Disease is on the increase.
All of those things can be prevented, they have a government which wants to help their people but have their hands tied.
The world wants to help too. Isreal is preventing them from helping.
Isreal is covering itself in shame. I personally would morally support a China-Russia-France coalition to remove the blockades into Gaza.
Your opinion may differ from mine, but that is my opinion, you won't change it.
Sadly enough, the sick dying children, men and women are all dispensable in the eyes of certain people just because they are muslims... the so called 'cost of war', to be dismissed with a heartless 'too bad'! As if it's not human lives we were talking about here.....and that compassion was exclusive to certain nations and religions and not to others!
So, next time you see a starving person denied humanitarian aid, remember to first ask him what his religious beliefs were...and if he was 'leftist' or not...! It seems to be the only deciding factor here....
No my pity does not stop at the muslim people... it does stop at the ideology of Islam though.
Again... they ran the blockade... they knew what the results would be and they did it anyway.
Whose fault is that?
If they had done it the right way they would have been in the gaza dispersing thier aide. But no they wanted to make a scene and have an international incident... they got it.
Your not looking at the overall picture though are you?
The issue is not with the deaths of 9 activists, those people were willing to risk their lives to save the lives of others.
They do not get my sympathy, they get my eternal praise. I have total respect for their commitment and bravery. Each one of them would have been willing to die for the cause. There were people of all ages, races, religions on that boat. Black, white, purple, muslim, christian, athiest, jedi.
The issue is the aid which will now not reach the sick and the dying.
Isreal should not be made accountable for the deaths of nine priviledged people from the developed world, but the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths in Palistine that their actions have/will cause.
Israel is not the cause of all of Palistines problems. No matter how much you want them to be... so get over it.
Israel was justified in the boarding... and they are justified in most all thier defensive assaults and military actions.
But why should we even dismiss the deaths of those more then 10 activist who died for such a noble cause?
Wait: TM's response: "All those idiots had to do was stop to be searched. They chose not to.... too bad."
That is about the most pathetic justification for brutal murder I have ever heard in my life!
It was not murder... it was self defense.
Did you not see the tape of the assault? Iron rods and chairs, tossing soldiers off the boat?
It is called self defense...
and I'll say it again.
And it is funny that everyone I have talked with backs Israel. And that inmcludes people from Maine, Mass, Va, Florida, N.Carolina. Everyone I have spoken with agrees Israel was in the right.
"And it is funny that everyone I have talked with backs Israel. And that includes people from Maine, Mass, Va, Florida, N.Carolina."
Such a richly diverse set of cultures there then?
I'm glad that you have the globe covered.
And the sad thing is that you are correct. Thankfully the 'man on the street' in most European countries agree with us. It is a shame that so few of the Bourgeoisie seem to give a shit.
There is no Tony Benn in British politics right now, which I feel is a mighty shame.
Check out the Goldstone report on Israel's brutal invasion of Gaza last year.
You mean thier defensive assualt to cease the rocket fire by Hamas into Israel.
lol you guys are funny... lololol
A total of 8 people in Israel were killed by rocket and mortar fire when the rocket attacks were at peak in 2008. EIGHT in Israel - for the whole frickin' YEAR. How many civilians were killed in the retaliatory 'war'? And in one day one incident in international waters, 10 people were killed to prevent non-military aid to people guilty of the crime of not being judeo-christian.
So it is okay if Hamas and the plastinians fire the rockets into Israel because they were bad shots anyways... yes that is leftist logic.
Gimme a break.
One country fire rockets into another and that is an act of war.
And thier crime is not,... not being Judao Christian. That is a pathetic attempt to muddy the waters with your own hate.
All you people should figure it out.... it is the racist and the bigot which make every issue about race and religion.
So check yourself, Doug.
And again, all those "innocent activists" had to do was stop and be searched, or enter at the correct port of entry.
Israel allows aide into Gaza all the time.
To say they do not is an out right lie.
Those people, your supposedly innocent activists, chose to run the blockade... and chose to attack the Israelis when they boarded.
Where is thier responsibility, Doug?
Oh the same as the illegals.
They don't have any. it is all America's and Israel's responsibility. Not palistine for electing terrorists to thier Govt. nor the Mexicans for breaking our laws.
No... all America's and Israel's fault.
lololol ohh your too funny...
You seem to suggest that having bomb being lobbed into Israel's population centers is OK if only 8 people are killed per year by them.
I'm not condoning the Gaza offensive, or the flotilla attack, but some people seem to think that Israel should just lie over and take its lumps when it comes to terrorist attacks from its neighbors.
And what is a "Judeo-Christian"? Is this the same thing as a "Serbo-Croatian"?
How ironic that a state established in the aftermath of the persecution of the Jews results in the bullied becoming the bullies.
Why is this isolated to Gaza? What is happening in the West Bank that is different from the situation in Gaza?
Well it relates to the 'Gaza Strip' rather than the city of Gaza itself. It is key to logistics, the only way that supplies can come from the rest of the world to the West Bank.... except from Jordan. As you can imagine, their isn't a great deal of money in Jordan either, a total GDP of $21bn, and a huge balance of payments deficit. It would be incredibly dangerous for Western aid convoys to attempt to travel through Jordan.
"And it is funny that everyone I have talked with backs Israel. And that includes people from Maine, Mass, Va, Florida, N.Carolina."
Such a richly diverse set of cultures there then?
I'm glad that you have the globe covered.
I am talking about the man on the street ryan... the ones your so quick to point out back your view.
Not so much that I see.
And I hate to brake it to you but America is the most diverse country in the world. I could talk to many people from many other cultures and countries just walking down one street in lynn Ma.
And as for others... I have been online all day and not everyone online around the world agrees with you either.
It does not suprise me in the slightest that the people you associate with or socialise with share a similar personality to you, that is perfectly normal.
But my point was that you haven't exactly taken a very wide demographic sample. If you were to say "Almost every American agrees with Israel" then that does not suprise me either.
No suprises. But your "man on the street" is not my "man on the street". I'm not going to sit here and America bash, some of the activists heading to Gaza that day on other smaller vessels were American. There are some great people in America, unfortunately at times it appears that they form a minority. Although I'm sure that they don't really.
I have alot of friends which do not see things, politics, religion, etc, as I do. Many of my friends are flat out leftists and Anti-American, so to spout about my limited range of friends is just a joke.
The fact is not everyone blames Israel for this... and not everyone thinks Israel is the cause of all the problems in the middle east.
cheer up... you've got support at hand...!
yes, no compassion can be the slogan.... I'm done here. take care.
I do not think that Isreal is the cause of all of the problems in the Middle East, it is almost as if you are making this up as you go.
It is YOU who has brought religion into this, YOU who has brought the wider Middle East into this.
Isreal is to blame for the oppression, genocide even, of the Palistine people. And the US and UK, particularly the US, have played a major part.
I am ashamed of the UK stance. My forefathers fought for freedom and liberty, and for the end of genocide, and I hope that this generation can fight genocide once more. Through whatever means possible. Whatever it takes to grant liberty and freedom to the Palistinian people.
Chinese bombs? Russian bombs? So be it. If that is the way that it has to be. The US and the UK will have to seriously reconsider its stance against the Isreali regime if it is to avoid a serious global conflict.
I am not suggesting that the UK and the US will need to necessarily change its stance. But it will have no choice but to watch the rest of the world take the necessary action against the Isreali government and military in order to free Palistine.
For two countries who speak so much about creating world peace, protecting freedoms and liberties, their stance is pretty weak and pathetic. Even the French have taken a tougher stance for goodness sake, the ultimate shirkers.
I regret starting this thread. Not because of the controversy surrounding this issue, but because it has brought me into contact with someone like you.
You make no attempt to engage with the themes raised by this thread, instead regurgitating in increasingly grotesque levels of inhumanity, the same answers, devoid of reflection, justification, or consideration.
You have shown no evidence of an ability to critically engage with the arguments of others here. Worse than that, you have shown no interest in engaging with these arguments.
Flag this as a personal attack if you like - you've had an awful lot of whitespace to justify yourself - your inability to do so speaking just as loudly as the brutality of your message.
With friends like you, Israel needs no enemies at all.
May you receive in kind everything you send into the world.
Ilmdamaily - You posted something sensative, personal and of quality. Of all the comments on this post the only one that troubles me is that you REGRET posting it.
I suspect MOST of the people who read it were touched. I suspect many didn't comment who didn't know what to say. A few people wanted to neutralize the sympathy your post might generate - because in their worldview they want to fan the flames of Christian jihad - the that evangelical worldview is the opposite of what you espouse - and the opposite of what radical islamists espouse. You are right - don't let a loudmouth discourage you.
I told you.
I don't have to justify anything Israel does, to you, or the left.
I am sorry you feel so hurt because I will not agree with you that Israel is the sole fault of all the ills in Canaan.
I don't care to engage in a conversation intent on blaming Israel.
That is all this thread was for... an attemtpt to use someone's death to generate sympathy for your opinion.
Who is the worse individual here.
I, who says what I think and feel.
Who uses a deead man and his family to sucker the pity from everyone.
There has been plenty of awful death in the conflict in Israel on both sides. But to sling this man's death around as if it has anything to do with the boarding of that ship, is a pathetic leftist trick. And done simply to enrage emotion and blame Israel.
Shame on you!!!
Oh and feel free to launch the personal attacks... I do not report people.
Hamas is a creation of the Mossad.
They started it to justify their killing and genocide.
Arafat was on the CIA payroll.
Aliyah...Israel's right to take whatever it wants simply because it wants it.
They pay people to settle on Palestine land. The gvt pays much of their rent. WE subsidize this to the tune of $7 million a day...more if you include the weapons we give them.
It is land theft, genocide, horrible brutal occupation....going on since the terrorist beginnings in 1947...coincidentally the creation of the CIA and NSA....Operation Paperclip. Nazi's smuggled over here.
Why do you think IDF soldier themselves refuse to serve in Gaza? They know what it's all about...the inhumane treatment of fellow human beings..Begin did call them insects. Meir said they don't exist. Ohlmert says invasion of Iraq was good for Israel. Read the Talmud, or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
you-tube: 'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack
There is no justification for what they have done. 0
Just as there is no justification for anything evil Islam does. Or Christianity. Or anyone.
We just happen to be FUNDING this one. so YEAH--I think that gives us the right to not like it and say so!!
You threw out your right to be believed when you stated the right called Mexicans dirty people on this hubs.
So I... among many others have no interest in your opinions, Chrs.
You should apologize for that lie.
It wasn't a "lie" it was a charecterization of how I see you.
You know...like Beck saying Obama hates white people. His charecterization.
This is mine. And you should have known it was a charecterization by the way I spelled it...durdy. Get it?
Sorry if you don't like the same tactics used on you...maybe you should write to Faux News and complain?
Tell you what...when people apologize for saying Obama is anti--American, I'll apologize for my feelings about you.
Well, I did not read all the responses and I am not going to, because it’s all same old, same old scenario and agenda. Same people bashing Israel, twisting the facts, misinterpreting the history. But it is nice that with each new anti-Israel thread there are more and more new people standing up for Israel and for its right to defend its people. There are more and more people who are using their own brains to judge the situation.
Just my 2 cents:
1) First of all about the situation with flotilla:
Israel informed the Flotilla ships that their humanitarian aid will be delivered to Gaza through Ashdod Port after checking the boats for terrorists and other weapons. It is Israel's basic right to do so.
Most ships cooperated and had no problems. The "Mavi Marmara" violently stabbed and beat soldiers with metal rods. http://ht.ly/1S70A [Video]
This resulted in many injuries and deaths. Extremely unfortunate situation, but who is the real aggressor? Those people in the video are supposedly peace activists?
Also note, numerous slingshots, marbles, and metal rods were found on that ship.
another video- http://ht.ly/1S70A
2) There was time when America made a blocage of Cuba not letting there a single ship with the same reason- so that Cuba would not get weapons. What is the difference with Israel right not letting weapons into Gaza? About 5 years ago Israel withdrew all its troops from Gaza, all its settlers, it freed Gaza for Arabs. Not Gaza people, but Hamas started the war of terror. Israel is giving tons of humanitarian help to Gaza. What other country is supplying its enemy with humanitarian help?
3) What was that tearful story that started this thread? I couldn’t find any information about this poor man on the web.
But I found lots of information about Gilad Shalit, the kidnapped Israeli soldier kept in Gaza, about other kidnapped and killed Israelis, about lynched Israelis who got lost on the road and got to an Arab village where they were lynched in front of the video cameras.
People, you are blind. Get your hands off Israel. Look at the map- Israel is a tiny blooming spot among huge Arab countries surrounding him.
For the end- just a fact- when Jews started coming back to their land at the end of 19th-beginning of 20th century, they were buying the lands from Arabs, buying, legally, paying huge money for undeveloped lands, and they made blooming country from sands and bogs.
God watch over Israel. Amen.
It's better for you not to read. You did the right thing.Be blind.
And stay that way LOL
Killing people in International waters doesn't look good to me. No matter what race or religion
No justification whatsoever.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne … s-1.293415
Fiasco on the High Seas by Ari Shavit, Haaretz
Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile. It lost what is now called international legitimacy. British rule over the country ended just 10 months after the Exodus fiasco,
The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus. It carried not Holocaust survivors but provocateurs, many of them extremists. But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts. In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.
Netanyahu, Barak and Ya'alon have neither vision nor charisma, but they once seemed to have good judgment. The sole promise made by their cabinet was not to make hasty decisions like the one that led its predecessor into the Second Lebanon War. It was supposed to handle Israel's strategic interests with utmost seriousness and responsibility. On the night of May 30th the cabinet broke its promise, demonstrating extreme, unforgivable lack of judgment in the face of the Palestinian flotilla.
During the 2006 war in Lebanon I concluded that my 15-year-old daughter could have conducted it more wisely than the Olmert-Peretz government. We've progressed. Today it's clear to me that my 6-year-old son could do much better than our current government. Even a child would have seen the imbalance in the risk-threat assessment in overpowering the flotilla ships. Any smart kid would understand that you don't sacrifice what is important for what is not. But the cabinet did not understand. Under the leadership of Netanyahu, Barak and Ya'alon it came to a patently unreasonable decision. It was a decision of complete fools.
Endless questions are being asked. What happened to Israel's vaunted creativity? Why was the worst of all possible options chosen? Where was the army chief of staff? Where were the intelligence services? Why did we walk into this trap, which we managed to avoid in all the years of the second intifada, with our eyes open? Why didn't we see that instead of tightening the siege on Gaza, we were about to tighten the siege on ourselves?
Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us?
"Also note, numerous slingshots, marbles, and metal rods were found on that ship."
And this justifies Israli forces killing 10 to 15 people on ships in international waters - those ships loaded with humanitarian supplies (if you don't count the marbles)..
Read your own post and look at the facts, man.
NYTimes Lead Editorial 6-2-10
Israel and the Blockade
Published: June 1, 2010
The supporters of the Gaza-bound aid flotilla had more than humanitarian intentions. The Gaza Freedom March made its motives clear in a statement before Monday’s deadly confrontation: “A violent response from Israel will breathe new life into the Palestine solidarity movement, drawing attention to the blockade.”
Rethinking the Gaza Blockade
Is there a way to prevent attacks against Israel while providing humanitarian relief to the Palestinians?
There can be no excuse for the way that Israel completely mishandled the incident. A commando raid on the lead, Turkish-flagged ship left nine activists dead and has opened Israel to a torrent of criticism.
This is a grievous, self-inflicted wound. It has damaged Israel’s ties with Turkey, once its closest ally in the Muslim world; given the Hamas-led government in Gaza a huge propaganda boost; and complicated peace talks with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.
It also has made it much tougher for the Obama administration to persuade the United Nations Security Council to put new sanctions on Iran’s nuclear program — which Israeli officials insist is their top priority.
The questions raised by the confrontation — and there are many — demand an immediate and objective international investigation.
Why did Israel, which has blocked some ships but allowed others to pass, decide to take a stand now? Did it make a real effort to find a compromise with Turkey, which sanctioned the flotilla? Israel has a right to stop weapons from going into Gaza, but there has been no suggestion that the ships were carrying a large cache.
Was boarding, especially in the dark, the only means of stopping the ships? What happened once Israeli forces got on board? The Israeli Defense Forces have distributed a video showing that the commandos were attacked. Why weren’t they better prepared to defend themselves without using lethal force?
There is a bigger question that Israel — and the United States — must be asking: Is the blockade working? Is it weakening Hamas? Or just punishing Gaza’s 1.4 million residents — and diverting attention away from abuses by Hamas, including its shelling of Israeli cities and its refusal to accept Israel’s right to exist?
At this point, it should be clear that the blockade is unjust and against Israel’s long-term security.
After Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007, Israel — with Egypt’s help — imposed a blockade on many goods and most people going into and out of the territory. The goal was to quickly turn residents against their new government. Three years later, Hamas is still in charge — and the blockade has become an excuse for any and all of the government’s failures.
The situation in Gaza is grim. Eight out of 10 people depend on international aid agencies to survive. Basic foodstuffs are available, but medical supplies and construction materials are severely lacking. The desperation could be seen on Tuesday when Egypt lifted the blockade and several thousand Gazans rushed the border but were later sent home after police officers said they did not know when the crossing would be opened.
On Tuesday, President Obama expressed his “deep regret” over the flotilla incident. He is doing Israel no favors with such a tepid response. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has shown time and again that he prefers bullying and confrontation over diplomacy. Washington needs to make clear to him just how dangerous and counterproductive that approach is.
Mr. Obama needs to state clearly that the Israeli attack was unacceptable and back an impartial international investigation. The United States should also join the other permanent members of the United Nations Security Council — Britain, France, Russia and China — in urging Israel to permanently lift the blockade.
That would lessen the suffering of the people in Gaza. And it would give the United States more credibility as it presses both Israelis and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to negotiate a peace deal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opini … ef=opinion
Yes all the lil innocent jihadists...
Israel: Global Jihad Linked to Flotilla
June 2, 2010 - 3:35 AM | by: Dana Lewis
Israeli defense officials now say dozens of passengers who were aboard the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara, the scene of a bloody showdown with Israeli commandos Monday, are suspected of having connections to terrorist organizations. The Israeli Army says it's identified 50 passengers on the ship with terrorist links.
It's known the flotilla of 6 ships was in part organized by the IHH group in Turkey, which reportedly has links to Al Qaeda. And three members of Yemen's Parliament, from the Islah Party, were also among the more than 600 activists detained by Israel after ships refused to stop for Israeli patrol boats and were boarded by Israeli Navy SEALs who eventually opened fire, killing 9 people. The Islah party is also said to have shadowy links to Al Qaeda. Both groups certainly support the Hamas organization in Gaza.
Israel believes the larger danger is that Turkey, a NATO ally, is becoming a foe of the U.S. and Israel. Israel's intelligence Chief, Meir Dagan, told top government ministers here that Turkish President Recip Tayyip Erdogan has "a dream of returning Turkey's dominance through going down the Islamic hall." He cites Turkey's warmer relations with the Palestinians and Hamas, and improving relations with Syria, Iran and others. Dagan described a new anti-Israel coalition. Turkey facilitated the flotilla and the Marmara is Turkish-flagged.
When Israeli commandos lowered themselves onto the deck of the Marmara they met a violent mob armed with bats, steel bars, knives -- and even guns ripped from Israeli troops who were beaten to the point they feared for their lives. Four of the Israelis were set upon, stabbed and shot, and are still in the hospital. Why then did Israel then send its Naval commandos down to the Marmara, armed mainly with paintball guns, into what was clearly much more than a mission of crowd control? The answer is Israeli commanders now admit it was a case of "bad equipment, bad tactics, and bad intelligence."
Had the team boarding the ship not been lowered one by one to be quickly overwhelmed by violent activists, had they been trained in crowd control, the outcome may have been much different, spared the bloody ending that now has the international community in uproar.
Even close allies are under pressure. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has been wobbling between supporting Israel's right to defend its borders against Hamas smuggling and the need to show sympathy for 1.5 million Palestinians under a 3-year blockade struggling to get everything from medical supplies to food. Clinton won't condemn the blockade, even though Israel itself is increasingly questioning keeping it in place, considering that Hamas manages to smuggle arms from underground tunnels in Egypt regardless.
The fact a portion of the activists aboard the 6 ships had such serious links to extremist groups raises more questions about who in Israel ultimately approved the bungled plan to board the ships. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's inner cabinet is said to be fuming about not being consulted on the actual details of the raid and is demanding answers now. Israel's political leaders and top generals are trying to avoid taking responsibility for the "fiasco at sea," as one newspaper headline screamed here this week.
A top general told Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee this week that Israeli commandos also used some "gray" tactics at sea on the other 5 ships, an indication they may have somehow disabled engines on the ships. But they decided not to do the same to the Marmara, the large cruise ship where most of the activists were, fearing they would create another kind of humanitarian problem by stranding hundred of activists at sea without food and water and creating a different kind of spectacle.
There are now two more ships on course to attempt to run the Israeli blockade on Gaza, arriving sometime later this week. This is a war for world opinion and Israel knows it. But an army source told me "we will also do everything necessary to stop these ships too." Israel still believes the blockade is necessary at any cost. But the price Israel is paying is still being tallied internationally in terms of weakened support in Europe and even in America.
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010 … -flotilla/
Long live Israel and the USA...
...and of course, all these 1.5 million people are terrorists as well. Every last one of them :snort:
Frankly, I couldn't care less about the terrorist background of the people on the ships - it's a huge red herring. The fact is that there are over a million hungry people living in the Gaza strip, most of whom probably don't care much about politics; they just want to feed their families and are therefore happy to accept food from whoever supplies it. If I was living there in conditions like that, I'd be the same.
Once again Israel is shooting itself and the U.S. in the foot.
Israel has the right to keep terrorist out of Israel.
Just as I would hope we would stop any ship bringing them here.
To state, "I don't care about the terrorists"... is retarded.
If they were killing your family and country men you would care. And yes a good many of those in the Gaza are affiliated with terrorist orgs. If they are not practicing jihadists themselves.
Of course, but it's not all one way. Israel regularly drops bombs on Gaza - they might be aimed at terrorist targets, but you can bet loads of innocent people get killed as well. Which I'm sure drives a lot of Palestinians to support Hamas, who would otherwise not have done so. It's a vicious circle.
I agree, it is a viscous circle...
Also, in war colateral damage happens.
At least Israel take the time to try and not kill civillians.... that doesn't mean none get killed.
But the islamist groups, (terrorists), don't care one whit about civillians, israel's or thier own...
So... How do you fight people who do not care who they hurt?
I think you start by not letting any more of them into the Gaza. Every terrorist let in is one more they have to kill or be killed by. Ignoring it and taking no action is not going to help the situation either.
I don't see the USA cares about the people they killed in Irak either.
So beyond being compassionate to the Palestinian people. You dislike the US?
I never said I dislike USA. I'm only stating a fact
Stating the truth about US foreign policy doesn't necessarily imply hatred.
Talking about my own country (Britain): our government has done many appalling things to other nations. The fact that I can acknowledge this doesn't mean that I hate my country. Sheesh.
There's always the USA haters out there for whatever reason. I just dislike the blanket term of "USA doesn't care" or "USA does this or that".. which reflects even myself because I live in the USA. If people are going to bring up my country, at least do it in more specific ways, such as "Some people in the USA may not care" or "the administration of the USA doesn't care" or something like that.
I care about civilian casualties, and I'm in the USA.
so you care about them as well ?
They are casualties. Or maybe they are not ?
It says "Deformed Iraqi babies caused by USA use of depleted uranium", so yes I care about babies being deformed. But, still I don't get your point? You blaming 100% of the population of my country?
When I say the USA, I mean the gov. of course. They are the Face of your ountry. They represent you.
I can't blame all Americans for that, can I ?
So don't be dramatic.
showing you some casualties your gov. is responsible for.
And? I can show anyone casualties for any country done by other countries aside from the USA, some of them may not be recent, but still none-the-less they are there.
I'm only trying to show, that in wars everybody is to blame. Some more than others. In the case the OP is about, Israel is more to blame than Palestine.
And I' sure you know your Country supports Israel.
That's all, man
And that's my opinion.
Nothimg more, nothing less
I thought I could post it ?
Or maybe not.
Anyway, I'm out of here.
Have a great day !
Do you have any idea the amount of Chemicals and Gases Saddam released in the country? Probrably not. And I don't imagine you think any of that could be some of the cause.
No I don't imagine...
Oh how did I know that was coming... Aztlan
I suppose you support La'Raza too.
The Israelis have killed 200 Palestinians, many women and children, for every one Israeli killed by the ineffectual Hamas rockets.
You leftists kill me lolololol;
The pali's are bad shots... so it doesn't matter that they rocket Israel...
That is absurd... you think those Pali's care who they kill when they launch those things?
No they don't... it is only the hand of God that keeps them from killing hundreds with them.
I don't know about you ralph... what do you think... you go to war with someone and you can only kill as many of them as they kill you...lololol
Your a riot....
That is not true"
"Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza"
"Soldier testimonies appear to contradict official Israeli statements
A group of soldiers who took part in Israel's assault in Gaza say widespread abuses were committed against civilians under "permissive" rules of engagement.
The troops said they had been urged to fire on any building or person that seemed suspicious and said Palestinians were sometimes used as human shields."
They think of Palestininas as animials...less than human!
I don't suppose any of you took the time to watch "The Iron Wall", or "Occupation 101_avi"
The whole plan has been to wipe out the Palestinians so they can take their land. Settlers---Yuppies from new York! get to go there and get paid to steal homes...with OUR tax money! It is obscene.....and btw Israel is no better than anywhere else...this "Chosen People" crap is just that...CRAP.
There are as many or more Israeli terrorists than Palestinian terrorists.
The tunnels under the border are used primarily for essential humanitarian supplies to supplement the sub-subsistence rations allowed through by Israel. Many have died already, suffocated or crushed in tunnel collapses.
'Links to terrorist organisations' is a great spin phrase that means next to nothing. Everyone in the world is less than six handshakes from everyone else. We're all linked, to Osama, Obama and the Pope, if some hack wants to make capital out of it.
The Blockade of Gaza, which has killed thousands of non-combatants through disease and malnutrition, was roundly condemned by the International community more than a year ago.
The current Israeli regime is wholly at fault here, as are all who lend it their unqualified support.
Those terrorists are a very real threat to Israel. There are, and this is a fact, terrorists in GAZA. Thats not to hard to understand.
Also... your six degrees of speration theory is no longer applicable to this world. Read the latest on the theory itself for more.
Those tunnelks run more guns ammo and terrorists then they dop food and aide. And it is a fact alot of palistinmians starve and dies for medical because the terrorists sieze and use much the aide.
Israel allows plenty of aide into Gaza... the international red Cross, and Crescent both bring aide in constantly.
Those terrrorists were attempting to get in to do thier terrorism thing... that is all there is to it. Other-wise they would not have tried to break the blockade and sneak in.
Israel has my undying support... regardless of who like it.
So go there and fight for what you believe is right.
I'm sure you will use the same means to your goal: Killing people even they're not in your territory, regardless if they're terrorists or not.
If bringing support and aiding Palestinian people in their suffering is being a terrorist, I'm one.
So shoot me !
According to data from Israel, the expelled activists, including those wounded and killed, came from the following countries : Australia (3); Azerbaijan (2); Italy (6); Indonesia (12); Ireland (9); Algeria (28); United States (11); Bulgaria (2); Bosnia (1); Bahrain (4); Belgium (5); Germany (11); South Africa (1); Holland (2); United Kingdom (31); Greece (38); Jordan (30); Kuwait (15); Lebanon (3); Mauritania (3); Malaysia (11); Egypt (3); Macedonia (3); Morocco (7); Norway (3); New Zealand (1); Syria (3); Serbia (1); Oman (1); Pakistan (3); Czech Republic (4); France (9); Kosovo (1); Canada (1); Sweden (11); Turkey (380); Yemen (4).
I think the story which started this thread is heartening and deserves some respect, I also believe strongly that true peace will not come unless a number of things happen first!
(1. The Abusive attacks and false signs of love played upon the Mother land, in-order to gain more money and personal satisfaction MUST COME to an end
(2. The name calling and evil slandering of the Mother-land who just helped the weaker one out MUST STOP.
The weaker one must recognize that ABUSE and slanderous lies in any form, used against the Mother-land as a result of not getting more from the Mother-land, at a time the weaker one expects and seeks it; May be a result of the Mother-land not having it to give at that time.
Or, the Mother-land stopped giving to the weaker one as a result of the weaker one running back to their evil abusive Father-land and seeking more training for the next Mother-land attack!
(3. The Father-land and the weaker one must REPENT, ask the Mother-land for forgivness of their abusive actions, and NOT repeat them again.
(4.Everyone must begin to heal. Kindness and repect will allow that to happen.
(5. A true working relationship must take shape and love and kindness must prevail.
Only then can everlasting peace begin.
My reply to this forum topic,( Israel: Answer Me )
They attacked Israel on that ship.... all they had to do was allow for a search. But they knew they had those terrorists on board and that was not going to happen.
Also, they could have went through the correct port of entry.
None of this would have happened had they followed the rules.
They ran the blockade... they got killed... too bad.
And as to your, "go fight for them", remark.
I served my Country, America, with honor.
So why don't you go step into a war zone before you lecture me about going to war. What are you?... all of ten years old... go fight in a war... with people trying to kill you. Then talk to me about what a big man you are for bringing aide to the Palis.
I have been there... it isn't pretty and it isn't something any of you would know unless you been there. So all the arm chair generals who think this could have been done differently... need to grow up.
What would you have done? You have to stop them. You cannot allow them to run the blockade... how would you have done it.
i have heard alot of people here say there had to be a diferent way... but is there?
If so name it...
There is no civility when people are trying to kill you.
Yes... just ly there and let them kill you.
You wouldn't last long in war with that attitude.
lolol thats funny... civility is your answer. lolol
If you'll check it out, you'll find that the main activists on that ship were members of the Free Gaza Movement which has ties to terrorism. They're a POLITICAL movement, not a humanitarian movement; their very name even shows they're anti-Israel. But apparently they've become good at hiding their agenda under that "civility" you call for, and swaying the impressionable head-in-sanders that they have a right to carry out their agenda even by rebelling at a Nation's sovreignty.
What kind of trained commandos were these who had to resort to lethal force to control a protest, even a violent protest? The kindest interpretation is gross incompetence. There are less charitable interpretations too.
Whipping people with iron rods and chairs and throwing them into the ocean, is not a protest... it is a fight.
Not to mention the guns they grabbed from the Israeli's and began to shoot.
Not convinced. Trained commandos are not so easily messed with, even by angry crowds.
Did you see the tape... one commando at a time was deployed and then mobbed by hundred of activists.
So... thank god we don't need your approval, Para.
Again... when your in the midst of it... it isn't so easy, para...
So are you agreeing that it was a bungled operation at best?
I asked you... what would you have done...
I would have boarded and did what had to be done.
What would you have done?
Those supposed activists got what they wanted... an international scene and the world to gripe about Israel.
The contents of the ships had been verified in Turkey. Israel should have kept a low profile and let them sail into Gaza unimpeded.
Had they done that, more people would have received aid, Turkey would still be an ally, Israel would have gained some respect (much needed), and Gaza/Palestine would not have been handed a publicity gift.
But they are incapable of anything as rational as that because they are blinded by their machismo approach to everything. What they perceive as strength is in fact their greatest weakness.
Would Israel allow for a search had it been Iran?
The war over there will probably keep going on for years and years, sure there may be a peace from time to time, but it's doubtful it's going to be long lasting. Both sides are guilty of this and that, both sides are innocent of this and that, and both sides are victims of this and that.
Since it's been going on for so long over there, I think it goes a bit deeper than just "land", but rather it's for "revenge" of the parents, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, and children who were killed, either in action serving their country or as civilians being killed. I've always had this feeling that both sides are out for blood, at least a relatively large portion of them.
As long as Islam claims the jews need to be erradicated... you will have war over there.
As long as hamas and Hezbollah and all the other islamic terror groups have thier charters objective to be the annihalation of Israel... you will not see peace in israel.
Open your eyes...it's the Jews who are doing the eradicating!
Let me correct that...the Zionist. I"M more Jewish than they are. At least I believe in kindness and humanity.
Zion only knows one thing: Take by any means necessary. IMO
I don't understand why the setup won't let me delete duplicate posts. It used to allow each Hubber to delete their posts....
Sorry about that.
There are too many unanswered questions - why did this happen?
it happened because some people took it upon themselves to run a Naval Blockade instead of going through the proper port of entry.
This would not have happened if these suppossed, "activists", had done things the right way. but they knew they could run the blockade and the Islamic world and the left would scream about it when the Israelis stopped them.
They planned it... they executed it... and they paid for it with some of thier lives.
I hope it was worth it to them.
I work as a social worker... (have personally lived through wars)... and I shudder to read some of the posts here! I mean, for god's sake this is NOT about supporting extremist muslims, or being anti american or 'leftist' or defending your patriotic feelings for any country or religion! it's about aid not reaching those millions of people, ESP. children and women who are starving as we debate this. It's they who deserve our concern - irrespective of what religion, creed or country they belong to. And I will repeat, humanitarian work and compassion should NOT be exclusive to certain people or religions and anyone trying to stop it should be condemned!
And for the record: I am not a terrorist, nor anti american, nor do I want israel destroyed! But yes, I condemn ALL cruelty and violence, and it's the innocent people caught in between who have my sympathy!
I agree with what you are feeling MOW, and all your posts, how are you BTW? you take care my dear friend
it is just a mystery to me how other people wouldn't care for lives -- of children and those who are mostly the victims of these senseless disputes
Thats good origin!
we are not blind to see that there are people killed here. both sides try to justify their actions, but who are the people who got killed? then we know who did the massacre -- overkill even if the other side fought back. It is all ego or cowardice!
You don't get it... Aide gets into Gaza all the time.
if they had done it correctly that aide would be there now.
But who ran the blockade? Who attacked the Israelis when they boarded to search?
You don't get it... it is about Israels right to defend themselves and cease the intrusion of Jahadis into the Gaza.
You think you can flip it... wrong... they ran the blockade... they, the activists.
MOW, I agree. I find these threads a poor representation of the average American viewpoint. there are those who see only through right or left focused eyes, they can't see another viewpoint as being tolerable. if concentrating so hard to only see right or left, there are no solutions, only politicizing everything. I would hate to live that way, it must be tiresome.
I don't think there will ever be peace between Israel and Palestine. It is their entire history. Peace cannot be forced or it's not true peace.
Then you should condemn the activism that's putting its agenda into play under the guise, once again, of "human compassion" right now as we speak.
According to the News, they're doing it again. The current ship headed out is The Rachel Corrie, named after an International Solidarity Movement member who got herself killed by defying Israeli soldiers during the last conflict.
Keep on claiming this is about helping the downtrodden and hungry! But it isn't.
yes O... Gaza gets aide... as much as they, the left and islam, want to deny it.
And if they had followed the rules there would be noi problem right now.
but they will do it again tonight or tomorrow, attempt to run the blockade, and I hope Israel stops them all again.
OK, I am an Israeli, and though right now I live in US for family reasons, I lived in Israel and I plan to move back there when my family reason is resolved. I lived in Israel at the time of Gulf War, when international coalitions stepped in to aid a small country of Kuwait from Iraqi invasion. At that time Iraq was shedding Israel (and Israel was not even in the fighting coalition) with missiles, launching them on Israeli center cities every night. Just so.
When living in Israel every one of us had an updated gas mask handy in case of gas attack, our basements were not for pool-tables, but they were shelters in case of rocket sent from Gaza.
Many blame Israel of being paranoid. Who would not be, living under constant threat of rockets and missiles. Israel is surrounded by enemies. Little, tiny Israel is smashed between huge Arab countries, but still Israel manages to be the beautiful, developed, unbelievable country.
Many say that in a case with that ship Israel could do something else. What else? Putting their ship in front of uncooperative “Mavi Marmara”? Shooting the propeller of that ship under the water to stop it? Ha, whatever Israel would do would be considered wrong by biased world. Israel would be condemned no matter what they do and how they do.
Just let Israel defend itself, its people the way they chose. It’s a defense, not aggression.
Has the threat to Israel by its neighbors increased or decreased over the last 50 years or so? Has Israel's reliance on force to "teach a lesson" increased or decreased that threat?
It's pointless to keep on saying that Israel is beautiful, it has a rich scientific and technological tradition, etc. No one is saying Israel is ugly or backwards. Do either of these things make Israel's recent activity any less thoughtless?
I lived in Israel for a few months in the early 90s, at a time of relative peace, but several things have changed since then. Both the Haredi and Russian populations have grown enormously, and both groups have favored force and have cynically fostered the settler movement.
You might want to read about what Jews did in the 40s to curry international sympathy in light of the British blockade. Some of those tactics are being used by Hamas and its supporters with great success. It seems that Israel is suffering from memory loss.
No, indeed, no one is saying this. They just picture Israel as a blood hungry monster.
What Israel really lacks is a good PR. Israel should be shouting and yelling, posting information, crying and etc. PR means a lot.
Instead Israel as a real man is just doing what it has to do to protect its land and people.
Nonsense. How is the expansion of settlements in the West Bank just a matter of "doing what Israel must do to protect itself"? Do you support the settlements on Arab lands?
And if you truly understand the power of PR - and I agree, it is of utmost importance - then the heavy-handed response to a flotilla intending to break a blockade was an exceptionally bad decision for Israel's PR. No crying necessary; just not resorting to deadly violence unless it's absolutely necessary. If it had done any number of other things to bring the ship in without using violence, the complaints would come from the usual actors only and die down after a day.
Now Israel has just shot itself in the foot.
You're telling a Israeli to read something. As though you know through reading more than what an Israeli knows through experiencing.
Common closed ears.
One of the latest achievements of Israeli science.
What other country in the world would be able to invent amazing things within their borders, while Arab rockets hit them daily?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQSqjmk4 … re=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bUCH-Hy … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thgO_KA_ … eature=fvw
Israel is becoming increasingly isolated as a result of its brutal treatment of Arabs and its refusal to stop putting settlements on Palestinian land. And in the process it is making life more difficult for it's primary ally and generous benefactor, the United States. Israel is even losing the support of young Jews in the United States, thanks to Netanyahu and company and his Israel lobby representatives in this country.
Consider to boycott Israel and Israeli goods? Consider watching this first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5 … re=related
it doesn't matter Reu...
No matter what you say some people just have an irrational hatred of Israel the Jews and America.
It has all been hashed thru here, and once again no one is ready to change thier view or side. There is nothing you can say to change the minds of the Islamists and the left.
They will always play the victim... or the racist card. it is thier modus operandi. I am sure you are no stranger to the way the news get twisted throughout the Arb world and the leftists European societies.
but know I agree with you...
I am tired of all the blame going on Israel... when in fact thier enemy is more dangerous and vile than any other peoples in the world.
And yes I mean Islam.
Once again you have plumbed the very depths of bigotry with this post. This has nothing to do with hating Jews or America. It has everything to do with the fact of a disproportionate use of force that resulted in deaths, and with the illegal and lethal (to many thousands) blockade of Gaza.
None so blind as those who will not see.
You keep trying to twist this for pity Para...
The fact is they ran the blockade and they paid the price.
Thats where it begins and ends.
You keep cryijng about thousands starving... Israel allows aide in constantly... and too many take advatage of that.
You run a blockade and refuse to stop.... then you will be stopped.
This is about those who ran the blockade... not about aide in Gaza.
When YOUR house is attacked will you make proportions how to protect yourself and your family? Say someone threw a stone into your window, broke the window and the stone landed in a crib of your baby, but your baby didn't get hurt because for a lucky coincidence the baby was not in the crib. You grab the same stone and threw it back towards the intruder. The intruder puts his (ok, not his, but his neighbor's kid in front of him and your stone hits the kid. wai-wai-wai, the intruder is now broadcasting in every possible channel about disproportionate use of your right for defense.
Fine, put your baby into the crib and wait for another stone.
None so blind as those who will not see.
End of session.
That's horrible - I'm sorry you, Reuven, and the rest of your family had to go through that! Any other mother would do the same! I just remember what my 18 year old cousin, who's going into the American Army to become a medic, said about the whole conflict, "Both countries have the right to exist, but when violence gets involved and people get hurt, it's shame that Israel is the one who pays the price more than anything. They're the ones who were living there first if you read the Torah and the Bible." Well said, Alex!
It's like John Lennon said in "Imagine" - "Imagine all the people living life in peace, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, I hope someday you join us, and the world will be as one." However, I don't know if Mr. Lennon's wish will ever happen.
I've seen plenty.
Watch The Iron Wall.....
Have you been thrown out of your home by military force?
Has your home been taken and you forced out into a tent?
Have your children been forced out of their homes, had their schools bombed, been showered with white phosphorous?
I don't want to pay for it!
I don't want it done in my name!
Bigotry or truth based on observation? When someone supports a group, we are bigots.
True, TMMason. And I appreciate that more and more people are able to see the problem into deep and still, there are still more people who carry the flag of BS.
Same here! It's bed time for me though, getting really sleepy.
Here is a little capsule summary of those Humanitarian workers. I do not have much sympathy for Palestine. This is the same group of people who celebrated and shot their guns in the air full of joy as the twin towers went down !
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ … _jews.html
I wonder if this thread is a microcosm of the conflict in the middle east? Are the same forces at work? I wonder if we found a way to be peaceful, and honor and learn from each other here, if that could be a microcosm the world at large could feel?
One thing I think is key: No one really wants to attack another. But everyone feels attacked (by those who feel they are defending THEMSELVES) Perhaps more simply put:
We two proud tigers, past our prime
Have been chasing each others' tails
Zookeeper says it's a waste of time
But we both know, full well, that
"The other fellow is wrong, you see!
"Stead of minding his own, he keeps chasing me!"
So we two tigers dare not stop
"To stop would be insane!"
"The tail that chases must be stopped!"
"to end this vicious game!"
I think all "attacks," in physical and verbal "combat" can be traced back to the need to "defend" Each side views itself as the defender, as it activates its "defensive" weapons.
....And yet, in all that vicious circle of hatred, blame game and violence, some good and hope still persists... even in this thread, you'll see it shining in little unexpected places.
You are right!! That's a good thing
I think each of has a real desire to do good in this world. In fact, that is one reason WHY we feel the need to defend...we really ARE misunderstood pretty often, by each other! (and no one likes to have their good completely negated by someone, just because of different political opinions, and as we are negated, we negate in return)
We need to know that good that is in us, whether it be in the form of family loyalty, the willingness to sacrifice our very lives for what we believe in, our compassion for those who suffer, our desire and actions to help others....is also in so many others, possibly in everyone who's posted today! Each of us has different styles of strength, though, just as a baseball team has different people with different strengths in different positions. We've gotten too used to not recognizing strengths, just because they aren't OUR strengths. I believe, because of the desire for good that is in us, we will rise to be, and encourage others to be, who we really are in our hearts of hearts. The "good and hope" still persisting..."shining in little unexpected places" you mention is evidence of this!
Peace to you, kind lady! (And I really liked your comment above, about doing acts of kindness to counter the hate...)
thank you... yes, it's the only answer I've found to come to terms with all the hatred and suffering in this world. Just replace it with something positive.
(....Meanwhile, all around the finger pointing goes on... as it has for years on end... I'm afraid it will outlive this thread... and even us.)
I hate to tell you, but I think that finger pointing in general will outlive all of us....
You know I hate to burst bubbles... well maybe not... but theere are plenty of people in this world who hate just to hate. Who want to take from you or anyone... anything you have. There are people in this world that love to hurt people and need to crush anyone around them.
There are people in this world who hate for no good reason other than your a lil different or have a different religion.
Those people exist... and all the pretty words in the world cannot stop them when they come for you.
So yes... we would all like to live in fairy fiary land... but this is reallity... and in the real world there is real evil. Mankind does very bad things to one another... and there is always another person or people who want what isn't thiers... or want to simply hurt someone or another people... you think I am something... you obviously haven't been to the real world.
There are people in this world... that make your hyperbolic opinions of me... look like a saint.
Anyone who really believes you can talk and bake cookies... while you causually quibble your way through all things... and reach some agreement that is going to saitiate all parties... is not in touch with reallity.
Having witnessed war first hand, worked as a social worker through it....and counsellor in the very real world with real patients, I don't need you to tell me what reality does to people. Yes, there are those who just spew out hatred in return and thanks to them these wars will never end, but I'm glad seeing suffering at such close quarters only made me more eager to put an end to it. So, can you accept that there are real people in this world who would actually prefer nonviolence and hold a different opinion from yours, without you attacking them for it and being unnecessarily rude? And being compassionate and humane doesn't make you weak TM. Just more human. I wish you well in life. Good day to you!
I didn't say it made you weak...
I said it won't save your life when you encounter someone who really wants to do you harm.
And yes I do accept... matter of fact I know full well... there are some people in this world who would willingly go to thier death in a non violent passive manner.
And I also know that the other end of the spectrum exists and that talking does no good with some people. With some people you must be ready to kill to defend your life and rights... like in Israel when your a jew...
"You know I hate to burst bubbles... well maybe not... but theere are plenty of people in this world who hate just to hate. "
TMMason found a mirror.
ISRAEL, the land of the Jews is the only country in the world which is threatened each and every second. That is the only country which is threatened for its very existence. According to Adolph Hitler, the land they live was not bestowed upon them by God. They had to win it with their armoured power. The Israelis did it. Basic law states that everyone has the right to eliminate the enemy, if our own existence is threatened. In these circumstances, whatever Israel does is right.
Just for oil, western countries accuse Israel of attacking the ships. My doubt is when there is a lot of land routes to send aid to Palestine, why did they choose to send a number of ships in the garb of "aid ship"? Let them send the aid through land routes, if it is genuine.
Anyone care to walk a mile in Israel's shoes?
I consider Israel as the legitimate owner of the entire middle east. Those who came afterwards have no right to threaten Israel. Even Adolf Hitler was averse to the Jews since he considered them as the killers of Jesus Christ. I think they would have carried out the royal orders only and they had not acted on their own. I support Israel fully.
Personally, I think this is a bit more complex than it is made out to be. Let there be an inquiry and let the full truth come out.
Judgments can be made later! Let sanity and cool minds prevail in the meantime.
Just in case you leftys don't know... this is why Israel exists in it ancient homeland. Because of Socailism and Islam gone mad and allowed to run amok throughout the Eropean continent and the midde east butchering and cooking whoever they wanted to.
Implicated in the  disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22]
Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.
As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment:
Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.
In 1929, major Arab riots were instigated against the Jews of Palestine. They began when al-Husseini falsely accused Jews of defiling and endangering local mosques, including al-Aqsa. The call went out to the Arab masses: "Izbah Al-Yahud!" — "Slaughter the Jews!" After the killing of Jews in Hebron, the Mufti disseminated photographs of slaughtered Jews with the claim that the dead were Arabs killed by Jews.
In April, 1936 six prominent Arab leaders formed the Arab Higher Committee, with the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini as head of the organization, joining forces to protest British support of Zionist progress in Palestine. In the same month, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets.
Using the turmoil of the Arab Revolt as cover, al-Husseini consolidated his control over the Palestinian Arabs with a campaign of murder against Jews and non-compliant Arabs, the recruitment of armed militias, and the raising of funds from around the Muslim world using anti-Jewish propaganda. In 1937 the Grand Mufti expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on the British Inspector-General of the Palestine Police Force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Arab Higher Committee was declared illegal by the British. The Grand Mufti lost his office of President of the Supreme muslim Council, his membership on the Waqf committee, and was forced into exile in Syria in 1937. The British deported the Arab mayor of Jerusalem along with other members of the Arab Higher Committee.
According to documentation from the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, the Nazi Germany SS helped finance al-Husseini's efforts in the 1936-39 revolt in Palestine. Adolf Eichmann actually visited Palestine and met with al-Husseini at that time and subsequently maintained regular contact with him later in Berlin.
In 1940, al-Husseini requested the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right:
... to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy.
While in Baghdad, Syria al-Husseini aided the pro-Nazi revolt of 1941. He then spent the rest of World War II as Hitler's special guest in Berlin, advocating the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruiting Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throughout the region.
At the Nuremberg Trials, Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) testified:
The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandat … _mufti.php
So is anyone watching Beck?...
He has on about the IHH and the freedom floatilla.... oh they are a bunch of violent idiots.... yup they asked for it.... and they got it.
Beck is the violent idiot. You follow a fool.
I don't follow him. I just happened to skip through to see what he had to say about the flotilla incident.
Actually quite interesting to know who some of the players are in the boat ownership and movement behind the flotilla.
Also what some of the people involved in it had to say when released.
Many spoke of the way the "activists" were writing wills and getting ready for thier Martydom.... sound familiar?... also about how the IDF soldier thrown from the boat has severe brain dfamage.
While all the other channels are fawninng over Obama, fox actually brought something about the incident to light .
There are also articles out now about how the activists had forewarning that the IDF would board the ship and that they would be stopped.... it seems the activists had agreed it would be good PR... and then when the IDF showed up... and they were supposed to be peaceful and get thier PR and pictures... they, the "activists", began to assault the IDF and attempt to kill them...
Yes... more and more interesting every hour... but you wouldn't care about that, Chrs... just the chance to bash Israel, America, White people and Jews... and the chance to root for the American hating terrorists and the racist mexicans like La'Raza... is enough for you.
I mean why bother with the facts...
Man---when did I bash Jews????
I believe the word is Zionists!!!! Please pay attention!!!
And I was not rooting for La Raza...I was pointing out that Israel's reasons for demanding Palestine are the same as La Raza demanding certain states in America. "We were here first."
And what would you call your treatment of the Palestinians?
Facts? You wouldn't know them if they bit you.
You don't care to see anything but your blind support of the horrible mistreatment of people.
I guess cause they're not Jewish or American, It's ok to abuse them.
here is Israel's side of the story
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4208639/alar … t_id=87485
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