"WASHINGTON – The government is handing out nearly $2 billion for new solar plants that President Barack Obama says will create thousands of jobs and increase the use of renewable energy sources.
The two companies that will receive the money from the president's $862 billion economic stimulus are Abengoa Solar, which will build one of the world's largest solar plants in Arizona, creating 1,600 construction jobs; and Abound Solar Manufacturing, which is building plants in Colorado and Indiana. The Obama administration says those projects will create more than 2,000 construction jobs and 1,500 permanent jobs."
Odumbo is brilliant. Now lets look at the Math.
$2Billion for 1,500 permanent jobs
$1,333,333 - Cost per permanent job created!
Now if you factor in the total jobs including construction (Using a conservative 1,600)... you know how Odumbo likes to fudge the numbers to make him look like he's actually doing something... anything.
$645,161 - Cost per job created
And there you have it. I thought he was an idiot when he was only spending half a million per job!
Now with 8 million people officially out of work... and using Odumbo mathematics... the Government will need to spend.
Hold on to your hat!
$645,161 x 7,998,500 remaining jobs to be filled
EQUALS = $5.16032E+12 spent! or $5,160,322,580,645
I do believe that is $5.16 Trillion.
How in the world can people honestly say that Odumbo is doing a good job of anything?
All Odumbo is doing is borrowing, spending, and bankrupting the country.
Maybe they should just stop teaching math in school so the mindless lemmings can believe what they are being spoon fed?
why not look at the reason behind Arizona's Immigration law - give the jobs to Legal US Citizens! yeah, Arizona!!
How soon would the plants be producing usable energy?
What is the utility life of these solar panels, how often will they need to be replaced? Will they produce enough energy to cover the costs of the panels themselves?
The O's Harvard ejication was money wasted. Now he's wasting everyone else's money too.
Is there a reason you leave out the cost of materials for the two plants? Or for non-personnel construction costs (like transport, land, etc.)? Would the private sector provide some magical way of avoiding these costs, instead just summoning jobs out of thin air? Personally, I'm pretty sure that the private sector would also incur these costs. In fact, I don't really think there's a way around it. So stop pretending the magic of the free market will somehow make it all better.
To put it directly, you are aware that it isn't 'put in money, get out job,' right? I assume you're also aware that the money which is put in, which creates the jobs goes into the economy, and thus helps to create jobs by injecting money into an otherwise thrifty economy. See, that's the way the stimulus is supposed to work, that's exactly what its supposed to do: in a time of recession/depression, when most everyone is not spending because the economy sucks (and they thus either have no money, or are afraid of losing what they do have) the government steps in to spend, thus jumpstarting the economy, 'priming the pump' as it were for recovery.
Either you are willfully ignorant of Keynesian economics, or you believe that strawmen are a legitimate tactic of argument. In the case of the latter, I point out that it's called the Straw man fallacy for a reason: because it's fallacious.
I'd be more likely to read this post if the subject line didn't have a juvenle insult in it. If the facts are on your side you don't need to launch ad hom attacks.
His posts are always laced with extreme anger, hatred, and disrespect for the president. Go figure.
Which is perfectly fine if they were factually correct, which they seldom are. Every online community has to have a few village idiots though right?
Yep. I saw this coming, right after Obama was elected. And I believe this vitriol is just going to get worse. WTF!
One of the biggest problems facing America is its reliance on imported fossil fuels.
Perhaps what you should be calculating is the payback on the energy created through the creation of those solar plants, against the interest paid on the money that you borrow to bridge your ever increasing energy deficit.
If that $2bn results in $2bn remaining in the country, instead of heading to Saudi Arabia as it does now, then those jobs have truly been retained.
In order to calculate whether this is a good investment, you need to consider some much deeper factors. If that $2bn created 1600 permanent jobs which would last 40 years, and the revenues from the solar plants supported those jobs without subsidence, then what does that do for your figures?
The US trade deficit for energy-related imports for the period January-April 2008 was $132bn, or the equivalent of 47% of your trade deficit for that period.
If your country is running at a deficit of over $100bn every three months for energy, then I would suggest that you support any effort to decrease your reliance on overseas supplies. Whether this comes in the form of Alaskan oil, or renewable energy..... you have to do something.
It is in fact your energy deficits which are bankrupting your country, not your presidents investment into renewable energies. Either you cut back, you go bankrupt, or you find other ways of meeting your energy needs.
Doesn't take a genius to work that out. It also doesn't take a genius to work out that successful renewable energy projects in America result in a whole new export market..... you can't flog solar plants to people if you can't show them working.
But I won't let the bigger picture stand in the way of your propoganda and spin. Of course, it is Obama bankrupting your country Nowt to do with you all driving or anything?
The United States have been successfully operating nuclear reactors in our submarines for many years.
I wonder why nuclear energy is not talked about as a solution to our energy problems?
Why should we play with solar and wind if it has not been proven to be a cost efficient way to provide electricity to our homes and businesses.
It seems like a "Lets build em and see how they work."
The whole thing could be an expensive exercise in futility.
Geothermal energy costs nothing and could power our country inevitably.
Natural gas could be a solution.
But in this poker game the bluff is being called with wind and solar leaving me a bit skeptical.
Just so you know, geothermal energy costs the opposite of nothing: that is to say a very lot. See, to get geothermal energy you need ready access to geothermal heat. To get that you either need to spend huge amounts of money drilling into the ground, or have it conveniently at the surface (i.e. as volcanoes/the atlantic rift (see Iceland)/etc.). So yeah, for most of the U.S. it would actually be prohibitively expensive, not to say impossible.
It would cost money to drill just like oil but once utilized it could run our power plants inevitably. The power plants would need to be near the source.
Would solar and wind be more cost efficient?
Personally I doubt it. I do not think wind or solar on a large scale would even cover the costs to build the infrastructure.
I wonder if this is in fact true ? I have no knowledge of this but it would seem that most power plants are run by generating steam to turn some kind of turbine - how hard actually would it be to drill to the hot stuff below and pump water in to get steam out ? The result would surely be a permanent free power supply ?
I think geothermal energy is a good option, however, it is limited. Currently geothermal power is used where the tectonic plates meet. This is because the crust is shallow in these areas so a heat pot is closer to the surface.
Geothermal energy is likely to only supply a portion of our energy. It is very expensive to drill deep. Just looking at structure....Go out to a drill press and try to drill through a 1/8" plate of aluminum. It will be a piece of cake. If you take a 2" plate of aluminum (or better yet a 2" piece of hardened steel) and you bear down on the handle of the drill, you will find that the drill bit will bend and your hole wont be straight. Also you will need to clear out the chips and this is what is known as pecks. If you leave the chips in there, your drill bit wont go deeper easily because it will just regrind the chips. As you go deeper, you have to do more and more pecks. The time per distance drilled is not a linear relationship.
Now I am sure people didn't want to hear about machining, but I do have point.......It becomes exponentially harder to drill deeper especially what would be considered super deep. Current technology has the deepest drilling around 12 km and in many places for geothermal one would have to drill much deeper. The logistics and costs are mind boggling.
Now we would need multiple holes for geothermal energy. We would also need certain geological structures. Think about this....The water that is pumped down would experience a back pressure equal to the generating side. Also to generate efficiently the water will need to be superheated. What are cooling affects and how do we deal with cavitation in 12 km plus distances?
Now, I am not saying this is impossible but it is extremely expensive to generate geothermal energy from an area that is not close to the heat source (like places that have surface geysers). These places that can support geothermal energy are limited.
We need to look at many options. Geothermal would be good in some areas but it can only supply a small portion of the worlds energy needs. There is no one real solution.
I am not saying this to be a fink but I just wanted to put this in a perspective so we can see that there are many things we have to consider when we are looking at both our energy needs as well as the impact (both economical and environmental) of these solutions.
I am sure you are right - but if the result of the effort, development of the technology etc was an endless supply of free superheated steam the cost can be recouped over many years. But then I know nothing about this except that it would not generate the trillions of dollars of profit for a few individuals that oil does.
And if 2 billion dollars can be found for relatively poor returns of solar heat - hey I expect you and me could figure it out for that money
Yes oil does generate quite a lot of money for many companies. We do have much more energy coming from the sun as well as wind that could be utilized for the needs of power generation. I also think they have their limitations. I am not here to downplay geothermal. I would like to suffice to say that currently we don't have the means to extract enough energy from geothermal sources to supply all our needs.
Probably one of the places where solar would be good would be like a remote village in the Philippines which is both not on the grid and has abundant sun. I was amazed at how much electric power is there.
In places like the middle of the US and many countries have easily exploitable wind resources.
However, wind and sun cannot supply all of our needs even though they have the theoretical potential to do so.
I am not here to poo poo geothermal energy. I just want point out that we need to look at multiple solutions.
Solar energy has become economical for home owners in the UK.... as the cost of the technology falls and energy prices rise.
Ten years ago this wasn't the case. If, as expected, energy prices continue to rise... then you would be silly not to invest in one to heat your water.
The payback for a single standard residential solar panel in the UK, used on the average family home to power the hot water boiler, is now around 14 years.
In ten years time, at the current growth of energy prices, it will be something like 7 or 8 years.
I am not sure how this works out on an industrial scale, but I will seriously consider investing in a domestic solar panel once I own my property... which should be this year....
Cost $100 Million to build.
Estimated Savings - $1 million per year.
So as long as it never breaks down, and requires no one to ever work there... it will only take 100 years to break even!
Solar is brilliant!
Enjoy paying your $1,000 a month electric bill!
And what are those Solar Panels made out of... dirt?
"But solar panels can have a dark side, with an exorbinate amount of energy used to manufacture them as well as the chemical used to create them."
And I'm sure that most of the $2 Billion spent won't actually go to employees. The "investors" in the private companies will need to be paid... oops... I mean the CEO's and Shareholders. The money is being given to them.
I'm sure the people at the top won't take much of that $2 Billion.
And if anyone would like to know why the United States is reliant on "Foreign Oil". It's the United States Military. They use more oil than anyone. They also pollute more than anyone. And no one ever talks about it.
And at least half of the "Foreign Oil" goes to producing petroleum products not gasoline.
And we can all drive Green Hybrids just as soon as another couple dozen Earths are created to mine the rare earth metals needed for the Engines and Battery Technology.
Vote Obama... he's a brilliant mathematician. Borrow and Spend.
Nothing left to borrow... print that money!
The crash is coming... and only idiots have their head buried in the sand. And Team Obama is going to bring it to you are record pace!
Keep creating those half million dollar Government Funded jobs paid with Monopoly money... that's the key.
Before you keep going on your (mostly*) ridiculous straw-man rants, you might want to see my above response. The one where I dismantle your entire opening post. Just sayin'. You look a little silly raving on and on whilst ignoring the substantive rebuttal of your opening points.
Anyways, a bit of point by point:
First, none of the figures you claim to be quoting are even in that wikipedia article. All the article has are dates (opened, president visited, etc.) and stats on power generation. There is not mention of cost/savings/etc. on that page.
Even forgiving that, the way you state your figures seems to be saying this: savings (over and above the profits expected of a plant producing as much power as it does, that is to say, savings compared to other kinds of plants): $1 million. In which case, regardless of how long it takes to pay for itself, it is still $1 million per year better than any other type of plant. Which means your dislike it absurd.
I'm not sure where this quote comes from either, but even giving it to you sourceless (again) I can simply cite your own figures which point out that, even with this terrible "dark side," solar panels apparently save "$1 million per year."
*Here's where you start making some sense. This is indeed a major problem with the model of capitalism, way too much to investors et al. and not enough to those actually doing the labor. I'm glad we agree that the capitalist system is essentially broken. Is your preferred alternative socialism? A brand of Marxism, perhaps? Anarcho-syndicalism?
Again, I certainly agree with you here. The fact that the U.S. spends as much on its military as the next five (I believe it's five, I can find the stat if you like) big spending nations spend on theirs is a terrible, scary, and absurd thing.
And somewhere around here you again stop making sense. Too bad, you were on a roll there for a minute.
There was a a military project that cost (adjusted for inflation) 24 BILLION dollars and produced only 2 bombs. This enormous *waste* of the taxpayers money also saved tens of thousands of American GIs who did not invade the Japanese mainland. The two first atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ending the war with Japan.
The scientific spinoff of the research done by the Manhatten Project resulted in the development of nuclear power and a greater understanding of the potential of nuclear energy, including fusion.
If you want to spin the Manhatten Project as a waste that produced only 2 bombs, you are on the same track as MikeNV here. If you look at the long-term goals and potential, this is an investment in the future of one of many alternative energy sources.
Im always a big proponent of alternative energy and sustainable lifestyles BUT something thats often missing in the equation about home solar
Lifetime of the panels... often the time quoted for "payback" on the original solar investment is very close to the time you may expect the solar panels to last before replacement or repair.
At least here in the states ..its not quite economical without taking advantage of the tax credits and grants available - the technology alone at its current cost is at its best a break even
Lets not let the facts get in the way of a good thing, who needs facts? Within the next month my job role will change a bit and I will be doing a lot of work with domestic solar panels
If its keeping me in a job it is a good thing When my earnings reach 'quit job' level, I will be back to agree with you....
On a serious level though, I should soon be able to tell you everything that you need to know about solar panels, I will come back in 6-8 weeks and give you an honest assessment... I will wait to see what our official line is with regards to estimated payback and compare that with the length of our guarentee... Right now I haven't been told much, only that we will soon be flogging solar panels and that I am doing some of the stuff in between sale and installation....
I am hoping that some great hubs will come out of all of this.... although there will would be a serious conflict in interest trying to flog solar panels whilst working for a business which sells the same products... same with writing about negatives too... so perhaps I will give that a miss.
this illustrates my point I think - geothermal power doesn't generate profits, and of course the jobs that harvest that profit. People in the industries would be stupid to criticise their own source of income, however much of a con it was.
But then - god luck with the job, it appears as though solar panels are the new double glazing, and I made a few quick bucks out of that in its early days
Well the company I work for happens to sell double glazing too, and conservatories, interested in a no obligation quote?
I don't have any further comment to make really, I just don't know enough yet. I have heard it suggested that there is a growing demand for Solar Panels as a result of our high energy price increases... and that the payback period is falling rapidly...
I cannot comment negatively or positively until I have been fully briefed, I work for a huge business, I will see...
Yes please, can you quote me for a Conservatory, double glazing all round and a full set of solar panels? My address is Nan Hu, Wuhan, PR China next Thursday ok with you?
Lol, our operations don't extend that far!
Did you work in the UK out of interest? And if so, for which business?
Everest - of course ! Seems nobody had really 'done' the Isle of Sheppey properly, I only did it as a part time job but made enough to buy myself out of the Navy 4 years before my contract ended
Did it all evenings - I think maybe 5% of the houses on the Island got something from me. Good business.
Sounds interesting, Ryan - I look forward to that. That is a route that we would like to take, but we will wait for prices to come down before looking at generating electricity from the sun.
Currently, we use solar panels for directly heating the water, rather than generate electricity.
Because pretty much every Greek home has one, they are very cheap - less than 1000 Euros and we estimate a five - six year payback. They are guaranteed for 25 years
Sufidreamer, I was thinking about you last night! (that sounds a bit dodgy, nothing too heavy )
Gary Doherty is heading to Greece to play in their Superleague! There's a bit of gossip for you!
Have Preston made any good signings? Norwich have picked up Andrew Surman from Wolves which is, in my opinion, a highly ambitious move... he looked great for Southampton...
Put 18th September in your diary for a bit of banter Thats when we first play you, at Deepdale. Then we play you at Carrow Road on 5th March, the day after my birthday...
I will keep an eye out of Doherty - I checked and he is moving to Iraklis in Thessaloniki. That is a very nice part of the world
No major signings for Preston - they are selling everything to bring the debt down, and are looking for free transfers and loanees. Could be a long and difficult season!
5th March...that is the day before my birthday, so who is going to receive some points as a nice present?
Perhaps a draw would be fair?
I never had you down as a Pisces my friend, although it all makes sense now.... friendly, intelligient, good looking.... just like me
I would take a draw now - I don't think that many teams will get a result at Carrow Road
I have a sneaking feeling that you have a little momentum behind you - it always seems that one of the newly promoted sides does well.
Pisces - The best star sign, in my unbiased opinion
Here in Ny - At one time I was in the role of assisting the application process for green home renovation grants and tax credits.
One of my colleagues and best friends has spent the last 5 years gaining the necessary certifications to be a home solar installer and is very much of a proponent. But here in nY - the grants and tax credits offset your projects by about 7k - if you want to sell solar- you should move here!
But my father in law is Project manager for Million Dollar construction jobs - over the last 3-4 years he has been doing projects for a Ivy League school here in the states - the school is very much pushing for all green and eco -friendly renovations - their budget exceeds 80 million on this particular project, often their green renovations wouldnt be cost effective for a regular home owners as in the cost of supplies and labor will never be recooped - but even they didnt opt for passive solar heating!
Hopefully soon technology and costs will meet at a level where domestic solar use is a wise investment - currently most manufacturers warranty 12-20 years on panels - but panels tend to degrade quite quickly in energy output and the degrading isnt covered by warranties.
The ability to sell solar panels and the actual cost effectiveness of the utilization of teh technology do not have to be synonymous.
Isnt the UK cloudy?
Not at the moment, it is damn hot! We are in the middle of a heat wave.... in fact I could quite easily be in New York State... I had to go and buy myself a tower fan so that I could sleep!
Unfortunately our winters are getting a little like yours too, wouldn't be so bad if I wasn't in one of the flatest parts of Europe... but certainly no ski-ing to be had around here!
Yes it is often cloudy... I don't know anything about solar energy really sunforged, all I know is that all of the bus stops in this city have solar powered electronic information points which tell you when the next bus is... They seem to be working fine, but I am sure they are connected to the grid for times when the panels aren't effective!
I didn't mean becoming a sales representative presenting a pitch in peoples homes... I would have to really believe in a product to do that.... I was just making reference to trying to sell DIY panels on hubpages
Oh, and people get big grants here too for solar panels.... not sure how much, but I know that applying for the grants will be part of the package. I guess that I may be roped into doing that....
I know that I will need to submit planning applications for their installation, we have a thing called building regulations too. That is effectively what I do, gain third party consents from local authorities etc.... currently for Conservatories, Garage Conversions, Double Glazing on homes within conservation areas, Driveways, stuff like that.... my role will soon involve Solar Panels too... and that really is all I can tell you, I don't have any choice in the matter!
whats this thread about anyway? I just jumped in from the feed because solar interests me.
SUNFORGED = Students Under Nature FOR a Greener Environmental Dynamic
Thought that this was somethin to do with the latest jobs figures, now I'm catchin rays. The current solar technology could be made better, if we utilized better what we waste.
I had a provisional patent on a "gadget" but I lrt it fade to black.
does anybody else find it ridiculous that the OP is attempting to make advanced calculations from some tiny news article?
I didnt realize any intelligent americans still put that much faith in our news media.
This is a great thread, plenty of info to think about.
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