What do you think of this foolishness?
Raw Data from Playboy Magazine.
(significa, insignifica, stats and facts)
[b]Two recent surveys on religious belief found that 61% of Americans believe god has pre-determined the course of their life, and 32% of those respondents said they also agree with the statement There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in god's hands
Talk about completely ignorant.
What do you think of it? Weigh in...
People who don't believe the same things you do are therefore "completely ignorant"? Maybe you have other things to work out than what other people believe...
It's not a matter of believing anything with regards to me or did you miss that?
It's a couple of surveys. You either agree with or disagree with. I put my point out there. You don't like, then don't respond.
"It's not a matter of believing anything with regards to me"
That's exactly what it is when you declare anyone who disagrees with your beliefs "completely ignorant."
It would have been better had you stuck to the thread, instead of attempting to mock me.
Talk about useless.
I'm not trying to mock you. The entire premise of the thread was you pointing out what other people believe and then declaring those people "completely ignorant."
I merely responded to that.
The premise of the thread was not what I think.
It was about what other people think about their life. You bringing up my response to two survey is sad.
And, you did it without agreeing or disagreeing with those in the survey or not? You did even bother to say what you believe.
Yet, you claim not to be mocking me? Your actions are that of someone lost.
"The premise of the thread was not what I think."
How can it not be when you open with:
"Talk about completely ignorant."
"Yet, you claim not to be mocking me? "
I am not mocking you.
I agree Sab Oh. It's so obvious that people who have a problem with God have chips on their shoulders and continually start argumentative threads trying to down grade or mock God, Christianity, and people of faith. Why can't they just leave it alone and let people believe what they want? They always have to be starting something.
You proved you didn't have a point to begin with. That's about all you did.
What point was that? That your ridiculous beliefs are guaranteed to cause a fight because you are incapable of keeping them to yourself and feel the need to interject them into every conversation? Sure - I agree with that. Good for you sock puppet.
Dear me - no morals - that is your problem. Bet you are a Christian.......
Yep, my case have been proven. Too bad you couldn't keep your ridiculous comments to yourself. My case proven again.
If you don't have any morals. That's YOUR problem. Not mine.
Me a Christian?! Duh! Wow, you figured that out all by yourself. Great job Sherlock. My case proven AGAIN!
No - your humility and un-willingness to get into a fight gave you away.
No sir. You gave yourself away and proved my case that you and the author of this thread have a huge God chip on your shoulders. Your fight is not with me, but with Him. You can't get to God, so you want me and other Christians to fight with you. I'm not playing your game.
I've made my point, shaken the dust off my feet and moving on.
Was that your decision or did some deity plan that out a few bazillion years ago?
The fight? You're too funny. The concept of a god is foolish. The belief in foolishness is a fool following a fool.
That makes for stupidity.
Dear me. Your invisible super Daddy does not exist - but yes - my fight is with you if you choose to make it so - which you do.
Laugh on, but when all is said and done:
Proverbs 14:13 Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness.
Laugh on. Yup it up!
Her Holy Snortings 9:18
The IPU shook her mane, and looked off across the field. "Go away, Man." She spoke softly, even kindly. Usually her words were caustic, full of sarcasm and disgust. But now she seemed almost tender. No fire was in her eyes, and her hooves were not pounding the earth. "Go away," she repeated. "Go and pray to your invisible friend. Chastise yourself, and praise him. Punish everyone who will not join you in your delusion. Feel good about that, and believe that your Make Believe Buddy will reward you for your cruelty. Take his commandments, and rule your life by their words. Do not question anything, do not use your pitiful mind; simply give yourself over to this pathetic dream."
(As Translated from the Original Unicorn by Me and first published I Don't Remember When but it's pretty easy to find around the Net)
We aren't mocking any gods here (not that we might not elsewhere).
We are mocking people who think that their life is predetermined and that they have no choices.
If you said "I THINK my god wants me to do this" or even "I KNOW my god expects me to do that", that's very different from saying "There is no sense in planning a lot because ultimately my fate is in god's hands" or that their life is pre-determined.
Those are statements that can only be called ignorant. In fact, any person making such a statement would have to agree: they can't really be THINKING about anything if it's all predetermined - their creator must have designed every noise that passes through their alleged brains.
Such a fatalistic view also puts the problem of evil back on the god-thing itself. That's why most religions insist we have free will - that's so they don't have to blame the Blameless One for evil and sin.
So, yeah, I'd agree that these people are ignorant. Ignorant of religious thought, at the very least.
John Lennon said "life is what happens while you're busy making other plans" Most people are reluctant to sacrifice their illusion of "Free Will" which is incompatible with predetermined fate, But, if you hit a cue ball across the felt, it will cross from point A to B, yet along it's course, it passes an infinite number of points, which you predetermined by hitting the ball just the way you did.
In short, you can plan all you want, but God's the one who wrote the script. so you can plan to "ad lib", but if it's not in the script...
You know what this is saying? "Hey relax, go with the flow. What are you chasing? Where are you going?"
I think the Hub was written by someone who has been enlightened by CORPORATE CHURCH and not God.
My family and I are in the belief that a God helps us every day ...
We are victims of the current economic downside and have taken about a $20,000 a year loss in income while cost of everything has goon up.
Just yesterday - we saved just enough ($6.00) for the gate fee (which would have left us with literally 2-cents in the account) to get into a local park with designated swimming so my son could enjoy a last blast before school starts.
When we got to the gate ... no one was there to take our money so we drove in
When we left - we decided to put the $6.00 toward a few food supplies so we went to Big Lots
...as we went in my son found a dime on the ground - pretty nice!
When we got to the register to pay for our stuff - the total was $6.08 which had us using the dime so that my son had 2-cents as did we.
Sure - many of you call the coincidence ... but that type of thing happens ALL THE TIME to get us by.
When I say all the time little things like that happen just about daily (that we notice)
Every time we see things like that - we realize that if God feeds a bird in the winter why would he not meet our needs as well?
The little things you take for granted may well be the Blessings you don't think you get!
In life you head in a direction and do the best you can to appreciate what you are allowed to have ... tomorrow you may be removed from all of it through the results of an unexpected death - then what?
I think, they don't understand the plan, Cags.
Or should I say, that is not the way I understand the plan.
Thier understanding strikes me as fatalistic at the very least, bordering nihilistic.
I think it is sad.
If that is true, how do these people justify punishing anyone? Do they think free will only applies to good and evil?
The figures for this sort of ignorance are much lower in other countries - what makes Americans so foolish?
It sounds like there are many people who feel they are not in control of what happens to their lives. It is kind of sad for people to believe that no matter how hard they try the chips will fall where they will.
This thread is already amusing on several levels.
Au contrere, mon frere. I am in control, for if The Big G wants me to go here instead of there, I can go there. That doesn't mean that I am foiling the God by my actions. The whole thing is a logical trap.
Unfortunately, this is believable, when you look at America's society overall.
"98% of statistics are made up on the spot."
Like that one!
If that's the case then why do anything at ALL! Let's all just sit our a$$ down with our fingers up our noses waiting for our lives fall to fate. Okay, that's sarcastically speaking. lol! But really, I personally believe in God. So with my belief, there's all the more reason to put to work all the great things I believe have been given to me. What good is a gift if it's not opened and used? We're not here to be puppets, we're made as human beings with our own brains, own minds, our own hearts. Regardless if you belive in God or not, to live life to the best of your ability which includes respecting life and showing responsibility among many things should be a striving factor towards achieving the most out of life. It's predetermined by our parents (most of us) that we will grow up and go to school. BUT- you still have those who drop out or fail. It takes consistent personal effort and hard work to be the best you can possibly be in order for your life to go the way you want it. Me personally, if you do all you can possibly do in life towards being the best that you can for yourself and towards others, everything falls into place. And if not, you'll have the mental strength through God to deal with anything that comes along. I don't agree with people who claim to have faith in God yet show no effort and actions towards putting forth their personal best in their lives. So your statistic to me is completely ignorant. What good is living if you don't work towards acheiving and planning, setting goals. For some of us God is a motivating factor and others seem to look at him as a genie.
I think it makes sense. If God has pre-determined someones fate, then ultimately, their fate is in His hands. What is so confusing about those two statements? or did I interpret it wrong?
God has not pre-determined your fate, you have free choice.
God has simply seen your choices and the outcomes, and allowed you to make and live them.
It is not that he makes, or determines your choices for you. He has simply seen what your choices will be.
ummm, did you actually take the time to read this thread? because if you did, you would know I was merely responding to a quote, not making a statement.
oh I read the thread... I am just continueing along.
Do you always take offense to anyone simply speaking to you. Is there something wrong with me talking about another view? lol
And you not only made a statement in the above... you asked 2 ?s also.
no, i just don't want you insinuating that I took that stand. I didn't. I simply didn't see how those two statements were contradictory or ignorant as the poster implied. Thats it.
The ignorance is in believing that life is pre-determined.
"The ignorance is in believing that life is pre-determined."
Ok, it is clear that you disagree, but why is that "ignorance"?
Because it is a lack of(ignorance) understanding their own life. But, I would thought you knew that already.
In Sab's world, WE are all ignorant. Therefore, anything we say must be wrong, even when it plainly isn't.
Tell him/it/her anything: you'll be wrong.
I already explained why it is ignorant, Oh Masked One.
You don't seem to read very well.
I did not say that you called me ignorant. I explained why it is reasonable to say that people who hold such opinions are ignorant.
But never mind. There's no point, is there? You don't hold that opinion, you just don't like us mocking those who do, right?
Or do you? Do you think some god wrote the words that you type into the little boxes? If so, please explain evil to us.
"In Sab's world, WE are all ignorant"
then you said:
"I did not say that you called me ignorant"
Oh, Sab: twist and turn, twist and turn.
It's what you always do, isn't it?
Avoid the real questions, look for something you can twist and tie into a knot so you can show us how to untie it.
I'm not impressed.
I told you why this belief is ignorant. You are ignoring that. I also asked if you hold this predetermined nonsense belief yourself. You haven't answered that.
But not answering isn't unusual for you, is it?
"twist and turn, twist and turn."
Reminding you of your own words is twisting and turning???????
"I told you why this belief is ignorant. "
So it is"ignorant" to hold beliefs different from yours? Does that really make sense to you?
" I also asked if you hold this predetermined nonsense belief yourself. "
I don't recall you asking me that, but in any case my personal beliefs are private. And, do you consider a question honest and legitimate that includes the conclusion that one answer is "nonsense"? Do you personally find that to be legitimate, honest discourse?
I do find it interesting that some of the folks getting all bent out of shape over this are those who have consistently placed themselves on the rather far left end of the political spectrum. Sort of ironic in a way.
You have failed to explain how evil fits into predeterminism.
You have failed to explain how anyone could rationally be said to be thinking at all if their life is predetermined.
That is why it is nonsense, Dear Masked One.
But you never answer anything, do you? It's always "private": or time to change the subject, or, failing that, time to disappear.
Where are the other two Horsemen today, Sab? Surely they should be here soon?
How evil fits into predestination? Well, the way I understood it was that it's all for the glory of the elect, or somethin' like that. Too lazy to look up bible quotes. Ummm... lemme think. There's a passage that adequately explains it, you know, if yer not too scrupulous or fond of your fellow humans.
Alright, I'll look it up...
God made evil and god made the 'unelect' to be destroyed for the purpose of amplifying his own glory to the 'elect'.
See it all makes sense. If you can ignore a few dozen contradictions, and the suffering (eternally) of your fellow man.
That book is just full of stuff that requires ""ignorance" to get by :-)
"You have failed to explain how evil fits into predeterminism."
I never brought that up. Work it out for yourself.
Another fancy Sab twist!
No, Evasive One, *I* brought it up.
You really don't read well, do you?
I brought it up because you keep asking how we dare call this belief ignorant nonsense.
I've explained why. Three times now. If you want to refute my explanations, you've had plenty of opportunity.
Are you waiting for the other Horsemen, in hopes that they can derail the thread?
"You have failed to explain how anyone could rationally be said to be thinking at all if their life is predetermined."
How could I "fail" at something that I never attempted and never engaged in? I'm not here to argue for or against determinism, I just pointed out that denouncing as "ignorant" beliefs that don't match your own on a subject neither side can resolve is, well, you know...
You aren't smart enough to understand that predeteriminsm precludes any possibility of rational thinking?
Is that the problem? It's too complicated for whatever hides behind the mask?
Well, then. If you can't understand why we say it is ignorant nonsense, I'll take you at your word.
But we HAVE at explained it and any reasonably intelligent theist would understand it and agree. Their god may have hopes, but free will trumps that. If they didn't have that, they'd need to blame the Big Guy for sin and evil, and that's not looked upon with favor, is it?
So, atheists and most theists agree: prederminism is nonsense. Ignorant nonsense.
"Are you waiting for the other Horsemen, in hopes that they can derail the thread?"
I really have no idea what you're getting at with this.
That would be where the "ignorance" comes in TK Sensei. The rest of us understand perfectly.
Seriously - further education. Wonderful stuff.
Of course you don't.
Typical Sab: deny, deny, deny.
Sab, Jim, the Flighty One. The Three Horsemen. The Dodge and Weave Team. The "I never said that" guys. The Masters of Derailment.
You know who I mean :-)
"No, Evasive One, *I* brought it up."
Well, then *you* figure it out. As I've said, I'm not here to argue for or against determinism, I just find the dismissive attitude over something that is ultimately unresolveable to be inappropriate and unproductive.
"Typical Sab: deny, deny, deny."
Deny what? You seem to be having a discussion with yourself and imagining I'm participating according to your script. Leave me out of it.
"Sab, Jim, the Flighty One. The Three Horsemen. The Dodge and Weave Team. The "I never said that" guys. The Masters of Derailment.
You know who I mean :-)"
NO, I really don't. You are just waaay out there by yourself at this point, I'm afraid.
"You aren't smart enough to understand that predeteriminsm precludes any possibility of rational thinking?"
It seems you don't really understand the topic, but in any case I get the feeling you are too worked up to hope for any kind of reasonable discussion, so good luck...
At this point, Sab, everyone is laughing at you.
I understand the topic. You are the one who said it's too complicated.
You see, Dear Masked One, I have studied religion from every angle. I cut my teeth at the original alt.atheism groups decades ago. I've debated this nonsense with people far, far smarter than you.
And they always lose, Sab. Just like you did here.
Funny thing, though, when it comes to predeterminism, we'd often get theists chiming right in with the atheists. It's nonsense, and both atheists and theists know it. Any decent theist could make a fool of you just as I did.
But I love the "It seems you don't really understand the topic". So predictable.
Where are the other Horsemen? I have other stuff to do.
"At this point, Sab, everyone is laughing at you."
Oh no! Does that mean I can't sit with the cool kids in the cafeteria?
"But I love the "It seems you don't really understand the topic". "
I don't mean to hurt your feelings, that is just the impression I get.
"I have studied religion from every angle. I cut my teeth at the original alt.atheism groups decades ago. I've debated this nonsense with people far, far smarter than you."
LOL!!! I have no doubt you have discussed any and everything with people far, far, far smarter than me. That's a pretty low bar to pass. But boasting of expertise after hanging around on some internet atheist group is pretty darn hilarious.
"Now (because he lost the debate and knows it)"
Do you really view these discussions as 'win' or 'lose'? Honestly? No offense, but that is about the most empty, juvenile thing I've read all day. But hey, if that is important to you then you are free to imagine anything that you find sufficiently self-affirming.
"he says he never had any interest in defending determinism."
Um, and where exactly did I say I ever had any such interest? You may be confusing your imagination with the discussion I've been trying to have here.
So you honestly see a discussion here as "win" and "lose"? Really? Ok, congratulations on your self-declared victory. You are awesome.
I'm going to refrain from noting what this attitude reveals about you because I don't want this to become even more ridiculous than you have already made it.
"you just don't like us mocking those who do, right?"
Do you really need to mock those who hold different beliefs than yourself?
That's what I thought. You won't answer questions.
Is it personal, Dear Whatever You Are?
Is it that YOU think your life is predetermined? Third time I've asked that, and of course I expect evasion as usual.
I just told you a few minutes ago that my beliefs are private (and in this case, the topic is probably far too complex to seriously discuss with you, let alone any self-appointed 'gurus' claiming to know the meaning of life ) but NO, I am taking nothing personal in this discussion other than the reflexive anger that has been directed toward me AGAIN.
Nothing about my personal beliefs is necessary to explain why you and others feel justified and qualified to denounce as "ignorant" those who hold different beliefs than you do on universal questions that none here are going to resolve in any case.
Ahh, another Patented Sab Copout.
"It's too complex"
I have told you twice WHY I hold these beliefs to be ignorant:
First, because predeterminism fails to account for evil.
Second, because no one can be THINKING if they are merely playing out a part designed by the Big Boopster. If you aren't thinking, you can't be anything BUT ignorant.
But you keep ignoring those inconvenient truths, don't you?
Where are the other Horsemen? Usually they come galloping in to try to save you at this point.
Show me how you can explain evil in predeterminism. Show me how anyone can be anything other than a wound up automaton? Show me how it is NOT ignorant nonsense- and not just from an atheists perpective, but from the viewpoint of most theists also.
Or will you insist that most theists do not believe in free will?
"I have told you twice WHY I hold these beliefs to be ignorant:
First, because predeterminism fails to account for evil.
Second, because no one can be THINKING if they are merely playing out a part designed by the Big Boopster. If you aren't thinking, you can't be anything BUT ignorant.
But you keep ignoring those inconvenient opinions, don't you? "
Those are your beliefs and you are welcome to them. I don't particularly care. This is not a topic that is going to be factually resolved. You are more than welcome to your beliefs. You seem to want to insist I defend a position I have no interest in defending. You will believe what you will and others will believe something else. That, in and of itself does not make either side "ignorant." (I will give you a little hint and caution you against running your far left political beliefs into this particular ice berg, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.)
"Where are the other Horsemen? Usually they come galloping in to try to save you at this point."
This is the 3rd or 4th time you've said that and I still have no idea what you are talking about.
Now (because he lost the debate and knows it), he says he never had any interest in defending predeterminism.
I wonder if we could tabulate how many times Sab or one of the other Horsemen has done that? We'd likely need one of them new-fangled computin' machines, Molly!
And then the final weak parry: it's all due to my leftist beliefs!
That fails to explain why most theists would take the same dim view of this nonsense, but that's typical Sab-Think.
You lost, Sab. Again. And you'll continue to lose every single time, because, as you yourself said, it's all just too complicated for you.
"Because it is a lack of(ignorance) understanding their own life."
So, you think YOU know the truth of life where others do not...?
Your response is typical, just because you haven't figured it out, doesn't mean other people haven't.
I mean, how difficult is to understand "Life", the journey taken until death. It's not that hard.
Is that a 'yes'? YOU have the answers to the truth and meaning of life that humanity has pondered since the beginning? Is that really what you are saying?
As with regards to my own life. I have no questions. I create my own meaning of life, as well as my own purpose in life.
So, truth and the universal meaning of life is different for your life apart from any others? Truth is different for you than everyone else?
And, if I may interject a subjective opinion, if you have no questions you haven't thought about it enough OR you think too much of yourself. IMO
First, let's not jump to whack-o conclusions.
If you agree with a statement, then that doesn't mean you just sit around all day waiting for god to tell you what to do.
I'm an atheist and all, but no matter HOW much someone thinks that they are being controlled by god, they still aren't capable of shedding their evolutionary-generated need to survive and plan ahead.
ah, come on guys, no plans for the day. [sorry..]
hey, here's part of a great quote I read yesterday by Thoreau.
"Men are in the main alike, but they were made several in order they they might be various.. "
in other words, we're all different but the same.
as far as not planning.. probably why some are more successful than the rest..
I wonder where in the Plan we atheists fit?
Gosh, what a strange plan it must be. Perhaps we got rewarded for being extra good in some previous life - rewarded by being free of brain warping nonsense?
No, that wouldn't make sense, would it?
I like the IPU, myself. Thundering Inaudible Hooves, Invisible Pinkness, Pineapple and Ham Pizza - stuff that makes SENSE!
What seems funny to me is that apparently 29% believe God has predetermined their life but don't believe that He controls it.
Contradictions in religious thought? Impossible!
Hey, Cag, remember me? I asked you days ago why you were in a religious forum, when you obviously think anyone who believes in something is fulla crap. You must be really insecure with your own beleifs, otherwise why do you insist in participating in something you think is fulla crap? Is your lack of faith eating at you? I get the impression you are quite young, say, like ten?
Just trying to educate the ignorant - but - as you say - you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
Sorry me trying to help people deal with their fear bothers you so. You must be very angry. Take it out on some homosexuals why don't you?
"Sorry me trying to help people deal with their fear bothers you so. "
Shouldn't you work out your own fears first? And shouldn't we stick to the thread topic instead of these unproductive asides?
Sorry TK Sensei - I didn't mean to talk about things you are incapable of grasping. My mistake.
Lets get back to wot god sed.
Did god sed it wot u dun got no choices TK?
Keep calling me other people's names all you want, it really won't distract from your avoidance of your own fears.
What fears are they TK Sensei?
I already said I am scared of people who think they have an invisible super being in complete control of their actions.
"What fears are they?"
I reckon you know what they really are, but that is not the topic of this thread and we should stick to the topic instead of making things personal.
Why bring my personal fears into the discussion then TK Sensei?
You did not answer the question though - aren't you scared of people who think they have an invisible super being controlling their actions?
Or - did you just not understand the OP?
I love the religious forums... Always good for a laugh...
Instead of debating something it always degenerates into insulting each other... It's a bit like a bad marriage!
If someone wont agree with your point you insult them...
You all act like kids.... Will you be having a fight after school behind the bike sheds?
I thought it was a good topic to post about... but some people just have to make it personal rather than debate it...
Off to bed, my choice not gods... I control my life (well most of it when my wife lets me..)
This is A LOT like a bad marriage, and like you, LeanMan, I'm outta here.
"You all act like kids.... Will you be having a fight after school behind the bike sheds?"
Would that it were that easy. Harder, it seems, to exercise some self control in discussion. But if we all just try, we can all make it that much better...
So yeah. It's partly silly feel-good charismatics, and partly fundamental calvinists.
TULIP. Total depravity (of humans), unconditional election (to salvation by god), Limited Atonement (Christ's death on the crucifix only atoned for the sins of the elect, not for the sins of everybody), ummm... oh yeah - Irresistable Grace (the elect cannot resist or reject god's salvation, and likewise the unelect can not choose salvation) and Preserverance of the Saints (aka once saved, always saved).
Those are the five points of calvinism, made up by John Calvin, a man recently inserted into Texas history books in place of Thomas Jefferson, because the 'Saints' of Texas decided that John Calvin had more influence in American history than Jefferson did, even though Calvin never stepped a foot in the 'new world'.
It suddenly occurs to me that Texas may be right.
97% of all my friends have no free will at all! I asked them and they didn't even know what free will is!
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