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Islam calls for killing people...again.

  1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago

    Australian imam named Feiz Muhammad has issued a fatwa calling for the Geert Wilders to be beheaded.

    Not the guys in Iran or Saudia Arabia.   No, it's an Australian.

    There is no outcry from "moderates" world wide issuing statements in rapid fire, signed, handed out on public tv, declaring this an abomination against Islam.  Nope.  Silence.  This IS in accordance with Islam and so, there is no outcry.  There can't be, because to oppose him is to be an apostate, one who is to be killed by brutal and agonizing means. 

    Giving people who wish to be aligned with Islam space to organize and strategize how to make this a world-wide, universal Islam is a really stupid idea.  Hiding behind "freedom of religion" is an exercise in complete intellectual meltdown.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      An American eagle killed a baby last year in Colorado.

      1. saleheensblog profile image60
        saleheensblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        out of topic.........
        hi Ralph Deeds, r you the first hubber and the first hub writer? i visited your first ever hub which was a photo hub. we all here in forum was talking about it few days ago,plz confirm

        1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
          Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi, Saleheen, I've been participating in HubPages since near the beginning. My first Hub was published in June 2006. It was a photo hub of the Thistle District Championships. (Sailboat racing.)

      2. Pearldiver profile image86
        Pearldiverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        As did a Dingo in Australia that they called a bastard several years ago big_smile

    2. RKHenry profile image80
      RKHenryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Did anyone else have a hard time reading this post?hmm

    3. Friendlyword profile image61
      Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Did Jerry Falwell speak for or represent all Christian?
      Stop your F@^K&%G lying.

    4. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A more accurate title for you thread might be "A Fundamentalist Imam in Australia calls for killing people..."

      1. Ron Montgomery profile image61
        Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Accuracy was not the intent...

    5. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Geert Wilders isn't exactly Mr. Clean either. He's been called the most inflammatory public figure in the Netherlands.

      Citing irreconcilable differences over the party's position on the accession of Turkey to the European Union, Wilders left the VVD in 2004 to form his own party, the Party for Freedom. He advocates banning the Qur'an,[3] taxing women who wear the headscarf,[3] ending immigration from Muslim countries,[4] and banning the construction of new mosques.[5] He has also spoken in an international conference. In the international press he was called The Netherlands' "most inflammatory public figure".[6]
      [From Wikipedia.]

      BTW, he doesn't happen to be your cousin? You sound a lot like Geert! Birds of a feather.

      1. Mitestarossa profile image59
        Mitestarossaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are actually blaming Geert for the death threats against him!

        1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
          Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not exactly. But he has made a lot of hateful statements about Muslims and other immigrants.

          1. aguasilver profile image87
            aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            ..and in your opinion, that justified a religious leader issuing a death warrant?

  2. MikeNV profile image77
    MikeNVposted 6 years ago

    “Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12

    The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims: "O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

    People who think it's okay to be tolerant of Islam are sadly mistaken and dangerously ignorant.  It is NOT a religion of peace and tolerance.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Michigan has the largest Muslim community in the U.S. Their leaders have spoken out against violence quite firmly. They appear to me to be moderate, peaceful, assimilated and integrated into the community. That's not to say that every last one is that way any more than every Christian is moderate and non-violent.

      I don't have the time to look, but I'm pretty sure I could find more than one passage in the Bible advocating violence.

      1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Excuse me?   Christianity, at it's most extreme, is utter pacifism.   Nowhere in the Christianity is there ANY and I mean, ANY direction to kill anyone, harm anyone.   

        Of course, I expect you to fail to grasp that the old Testament is a history of a theocracy, where the people carried out the judgement of God.   God claims all accountability for every such decision.   However, NOBODY ON EARTH lives under a theocracy now, not even Israel,  the original chosen nation that rejected Jesus, and thus, lost it's status. 

        So, you run around, quoting stuff, utterly daftly, having not a clue what you're talking about.   Yes, it's a common problem, but since you're judgemental and prejudiced and promote such things... I feel it's more than fitting to explain it to you clearly.

        1. 0
          Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 
          13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 
          13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

          1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
            weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You're making my point for me.    This is instructions to Isreal, as a theocracy.   It was relevant, to one spot, one moment in time.

        2. Ralph Deeds profile image69
          Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If I'm not mistaken, Scott Roeder who murdered George Tiller in his church is a fanatical, anti-abortion "Christian." American evangelicals are every bit as intolerant as fundamentalist Muslims or Israelis. Fundamentalist religious intolerance afflicts nearly all religions. Christianity has a long history of wars, torture, intolerant, meddlesome, divisive behavior.

          http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 412065.ece

      2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You realize, of course, that the "leaders" of a few local mosques have no influence over the organization, and that they don't get on international TV and declare the acts to be an abomination against Islam, and Jihad to be wrong, etc, etc.   NOpe.   They get on local media, and make nice murmers about "we are about peace, we don't condone "terrorism" or "pointless killing" etc, etc.   

        Every time a statement comes out, it is parseable, it reveals that it's calculated to sound good, but yet never repudiates the rest of the Islamic world.   Why?  Because they don't intend to.   They make noises to get you to go along with them.

      3. Petroley profile image60
        Petroleyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Peace with you good man !

    2. earnestshub profile image86
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      and the same crud fills the bible. No major difference in these two books.
      Just the odd extra threat and some new disgusting punishments. smile

      1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thus say only ignorant people.

        1. earnestshub profile image86
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Don't call me ignorant you upstart!

          I think you missed about 43,000 references! lol

          Did it ever enter your mind that all the kill instructions were made by this god entity?

          Exactly the same as in the Quoran, and Muslims use the same slimy device to slip out and offer the "newer modernised version."

          The bible was sanitised when they could not sell the old god who wiped out almost all of it's "creations" Wot a crock! lol


          If you condemn islam you condemn yourself. Same device. smile

          1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
            weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Wow, you really are ignorant.   Especially about the Bible.   I'm guessing that you're determined to keep your wrong views, since they're useful in making false arguments... if you'd like to know why you're wrong, however, you could ask.   

            I mean, seriously, you really don't grasp a thing about the topic, if you're going to argue this.

            1. earnestshub profile image86
              earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I think you better re-assess who knows what about the bible.

              I know it well enough to make hundreds of statements, then dispute them using the same book!

              For example, I can show you where jesus contradicts himself over and over again, or I can tell you the tiny bit of the new testament christians use to justify their belief in being "born again."
              I can tell you where the jews disagree with most of you, I can tell you how many crazy sects like yours there are in the world, and why people like you believe in them as a starter. smile,

              1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                LOL, as Reagan famously quipped "they just know so much that isn't so".

                Sorry, you don't know.   And that is DEFINITELY true.

                1. 0
                  Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  what do you know, Weholdthesetruths?  You seem to constantly tell people that they are ignorant, or that they don't know things, yet you bare very little in the way of evidence. 

                  It's possible to have different perspectives, and opening up to what others have to say so that you can counter them with intelligent counter-facts is most advantageous. 

                  Why are you calling people ignorant?  You've not explained yourself, and so the easiest conclusion to be made is that you delight in ending a debate with an insult versus knowledge. 

                  If you're right, you're doing a horrible job at showing any of us why!!

                  1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    When Earnest decides to spout off all this stuff, he makes the assertions.   I have no need to defend anything until or unless he provides some evidence for his assertions, which he hasn't.

      2. aguasilver profile image87
        aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Except in the NT Earnest (you forgot to mention that) in the NT there are no violence admonishments, ONLY surrender of self will and obedience to God through serving others...

        Now why did that slip your mind?

    3. Zakmoonbeam profile image92
      Zakmoonbeamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, talk about taking a quote out of context MikeNV, you really are dangerous you know that.  I don't agree with institutionalised religion in its current forms, but your hate mongering and intolerance is truly a sight to behold, and in case you didn't realise, thats not a good thing in my eyes.

  3. Doug Hughes profile image59
    Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago

    Let's look at the facts. There are roughly 2 million Muslims in America. No Fatwas. The 911 hijackers were all foreign. The religion of Islam in the USA is peacefull and well integrated with a VERY few radicals. If this was not true, why did the OP have to go to Europe for a supporting fact.

    The bogots want to fill you with fear and hate. There's plenty fo vengeful quotes in the Bible. 'Eye for an Eye' or 'Suffer not a Witch to Live'.

    The teachings of Christ were about love and tolerance.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "peaceful and well integrated with very few radicals".   That's because you face legal issues here when you try to openly obey all of Islam.   Of course, one mustn't discount the Americans who have committed mass murder, etc, in the name of Islam.   I'm sure you recall the one in the military, that happened a few months ago, right?

      Islam is what it is.   That it hasn't the political power to enforce the violent and culturally backward aspects doesn't change anything, it merely has shielded us from the effects. 

      The purpose of most of the new GZM and the people sponsoring/promoting it is specifically to organize and create long term strategy TO get that power here in the US.   It's the same pattern used everywhere else in the world.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And other than your paranoid bigotry - how do substantiate that ALL Muslims or most Muslims in the US are dangerous and violent when all the evidence says otherwise.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Your inability to comprehend english makes it impossible for you to communicate.   That, or you simply refuse to read what's in front of your eyes.   

          It's bigotry to take the people who are authorities in Islam at their word?   You're just plain stupid.

          I simply cannot comprehend how you can be so confused.   There is something called "Islam".   It is an authoritarian,  self referential ideology.  it includes religious aspects, but covers ALL matters.   Islam considers itself to be above all other authorities, and in states that are Islam, the heads of Islam control everything they want to. 

          How or why you want to call knowing exactly what's going on "bigotry", is beyond my ability to speculate.   You would think that you would be virulently opposed to a religion that relegates women to non-status, demands to control matters of state, and demands to control all civil matters according to it's "religious" doctrines.    Islam is in direct and total opposition to EVERYTHING you claim to support.    Yet, you ignorantly (or maybe willfully) ignore the facts.   

          I do not need to defend the truth.  It is exactly as I describe.   The "cordoba project" or "Shariah Index Project" are intrinsicly linked with the Ground Zero Mosque, and the nutcase that's managed to finagle a trip on the taxpayer's dollar is really trying to raise money and resources for the express purpose of imposing sharia law... HERE. 

          These are established facts, there is no question they are facts.   Why is being truthful "bigotry"?

          1. Doug Hughes profile image59
            Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            When you tell lies about a religious group for the purpose of fostering hatred and fear, the word bigotry is not extreme.

            I pointed out that there are 2 million Muslims in the US. I work with one, I deliver mail to probably a dozen Muslim families. The live and work among us and are generally well-integrated into American society. They make up .6% of the US population. That's six-tenths of one percent.

            Let's induge your parania for a moment. How do you think they are going to overturn the laws which have endured in the US for 2 centuries against the will of 99.4% of the population. ('impose Sharia law') That's not the tail wagging the dog - That's a HAIR on the tail wagging the whole damn mutt.

            I asked you to PROVE (as in evidence, facts, statistics) the violence of these people IN THE USA. These are the people you are determined to persecute, not a nut in Australia. Outside of your rant, what makes them dangerous?

            There is only one reason I waste my time with you - that's to expose for the casual hubber, the vitriol and hatred beneath the ridiculous claims, so any sane person of ANY political persuasion will reject your arguments.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There is no hatred.   No vitriol.    My words are harsh, but so is the reality.   BTW, there are about 2 million who claim to be muslim in the US.    There are approximately 700 million to 1.5 BILLION Muslims world wide.   This means that  approximately 1.5 to 3 TENTHS OF ONE PERCENT of them live in this country.   

              You're trying to define Islam by that?   It is our cultural moorings that have protected us, call it "innoculated", us against the acceptance and the actual obedience to the violent and degrading and repressive aspects of Islam.   But our cultural mores are in free-fall, having been shredded by such as yourself, who demands no standards and no restrictions on behavior.   

              Islam is defined by the mainstream, not the far fringe who mostly live within our legal framework and don't accept the violence or other regressive cultural baggage.

              1. Doug Hughes profile image59
                Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                " There are approximately 700 million to 1.5 BILLION Muslims world wide.   This means that  approximately 1.5 to 3 TENTHS OF ONE PERCENT of them live in this country.  "

                So are you suggesting you are not at war with Islam within the US - You only want to conduct a religious war internationally? That's reassuring.

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I have no interest in any "religious" war at all, except that one is being conducted against us, and you're siding with them. 

                  Just freaking amazing.

            2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              BTW, I am not  being anything but squarely objective in my descriptions.   I am not and do NOT lie.

          2. 0
            Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Weholdthesetruths,

            It's disheartening that someone who has opposing views cannot openly debate something with people, such as you, who lambast them with such offensive insults as "your inability to comprehend english..."

            The Christian ideal of missionaries, and being the salt of the Earth is very similar to the ideal of Islam, which wants to teach Islam to all nations...just like Christianity.

            People use Biblical verses to heighten their political and powerful status in the same way that people have used Islam.  Many take many wives in Christianity, and do not "let their women raise voices in church," in the very same way that Islam demonizes women (some Muslims).

            If we followed all aspects of the Bible literally, women would be stoned if they had divorces, women would be stoned to death if they were found not to be virgins during betrothal to men, sons would be brought to elders to be killed if they rebelled, and some cities could be destroyed for not following a Christian God. 

            It's those very verses that inspired groups such as "Army of God" to bomb abortion clinics.

            The reality is that Islam is not very different then Christianity.  Many Muslims believe that Mohammed was a teacher of peace, in the same way that Christians believe that Jesus was a teacher of peace.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              How or why you cannot comprehend... well, maybe I do understand.   You're probably highly ignorant of what Christianity is.   Many people, even those to claim it, are.   But, it isn't difficult, and there's no particular controversy.    "Christianity" is to follow Christ.   There are NO teachings of violence from Christ.   There are none anywhere else in the Bible, either. 

              As for your nonsense about "stoning a woman", you again prove you're not in the slightest trying to be honest, and understand, just seeking for out of context, well, any straw you can find, in order to malign other people.   Seriously, if you're that unable to signficantly discuss Christianity, then don't.   If someone, somewhere, made this up, and you're just following... why?

              1. 0
                Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You're making assumptions about my ability to comprehend Christianity which are out of the realm of the logic of this debate.  I never once said that my quotes were taken out of context of the Bible, nor do you have the slightest ideal of my adherence to, nor understanding of Christianity.  I'm insulted by this perspective.

                My point is made by EXACTLY what you are saying about Christianity.  It is VERY true that people take those verses out of context and use them in ways that goes against the teachings of Christ.  Perhaps your understanding of Christianity is superb. 

                I'm not reaching at straws when there are so-called Christain cults or sects who use those "nonsense" Biblical verses to further their gain.

                What is your understanding of Islam?  THAT is my point. 

                You can do the very same thing for the Qu'ran as I supposedly did with the Bible (and again, as you inappropriately assumed, I do not adhere to those tenets of the Bible, as I understand the meaning of the Coming of Christ; however, I feel that my personal devotion to God and Christ and my perception of His teachings is of absolute non-relevance to the point in question."

                1. 0
                  Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  To clarify, when I said, "I do not adhere to those tenets of the Bible..."  I meant that I understand the historical context surrounding those verses, and I understand the change and teachings of Christ.  I aim to say that despite my knowing that there are verses like that in the Bible, I know, just as well as you apparently do, that that is not how they were intended for us.

                  1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you for clearing that up.   I literally read your statement 3 or 4 times trying to figure out if you were making some obtuse point, or if you somehow meant to agree with me, but it didn't sound like it.   

                    I apologize for the misunderstanding.

            2. Sylvie Strong profile image60
              Sylvie Strongposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              He attacks me and others repeatedly on another thread for disagreeing with him.  It is his MO.

              1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I ask for nothing other than a refutation, if I assert something, or truthful responses when you address me.   That's it.  Nothing else.   I do not demand agreement, nor declare you second class citizen or person or anything of the sort for disagreeing.   I only insist upon honesty.

                1. earnestshub profile image86
                  earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yep you would never call your opponents ignorant as you just did above! lol

                  1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Of course I call people ignorant.   Sheesh.   Ignorant is one of the basic conditions of humanity.   It means "lacking knoweldge".   You're born knowing precisely nothing.    You then start learning.   If your'e wise, you continue to learn until the day your brain is incapable of doing so, either by death or by injury or illness.   

                    Or, that's how it's supposed to work.   

                    That you speak of things you don't understand is NOT my problem, it's yours.   And your problem is a lack of knowledge,  to which the term "ignorant" is precisely and accurately applied.   I'm always happy to explain things you don't know, but unless you're interested in understanding, I'm not going to bother.   I'm guessing you value ignorance more than knowledge and won't ask.

                2. Sylvie Strong profile image60
                  Sylvie Strongposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  That is untrue.  You have insulted people on this thread.  You have been significantly worse on the    Glen Beck thread.  You repeatedly attack people rather than their ideas.  No one has bothered to flag you but you are missing the point of participating in a forum.  While you tell people they are stupid, can't think clearly and you have nothing but contempt for them, you also accuse them of attacking you rather than your ideas.  Your MO is pretty consistent.

                  1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Somehow I bet you never call out "lovemychris" for the blatant insults and endless put-downs.   Because they'er always slightly "covered" in language.    But you're having a fit becasue I use specific words.  But specific words have specific meanings.   And if you intend to mean what you say, and say what you mean, then you have to.   

                    People, however, want to read into what you say.   I'm endlessly accused of promoting hate.   Except I've never done that, ever.   I don't hate anyone.   The closest thing might be my contempt for tyrants like the nutcase that runs North Korea, or various historical figures, like Saddam and Stalin.   

                    Even the commentary on Islam, everyone is desperately attempting to say I'm spreading hate for individuals.  Nope.  I'm just discussing the organized and allied factions, their political puppets and allies, and their financial backers and what they intend to do.   And restrict my commentary to them, and them alone.   

                    However, it's "convenient" to misrepresent that, when a "liberal" wants to slam a conservative personally.   Why any liberal would be defensive of Islam is utterly beyond comprehension.   Islam violates every tenet of liberalism that they hold dear, but yet, will choose to ally with Islamists, before surrendering logic to conservatives.    That kind of irrationality can ONLY be driven by personal hatreds so strong it overrules every rational aspect of your mind and personality. 

                    Yet, none of this addresses the position that Muslims who live in the US find themselves in.   The definition of thier religion places them in direct conflict to the culture, heritage, even the laws and basic character of the nation they're in, generally by choice.   

                    If they cannot grasp why anyone would be opposed mainstream Islam, then they have yet to observe any conflict - meaning either they utterly ignorant of mainstram Islam, or they agree with it and are in conflict with our culture and freedoms.   It is a chasm that cannot be straddled.    Some people, and in fact, many, will behave like typical humans, and attempt to gloss it over, pretend it doesn't exist, or just try to ignore it.   

                    I don't know about you, but certainly anyone here should be able to see the problem with any of those approaches.    Many react, when it's pointed out what the mainstream is, by angrily denoucing... YOU.   Not Islam, not the aspects which conflict with what we believe are God given freedoms, but YOU, if you're the one pointing out the problem, and accuse you of hatred, lies, etc.   But the "lie" accusation is defanged.   Many, many are up to speed on what the mainstream of Islam is like.   We see how EVERY Islamic country is, and how repressed the people are.   
                    (and here's where the mind-numbed robots bust in screaming that defining the concept of marriage as a man and woman, and asking that anything else have a different name and definition is hatred and evil and the equivalent to the stoning of a raped woman in an Islamic country, for instance by declaring moral equivlency between the two)  And that no signficant changes have occurred for centuries, the culture mandated by Islam has not morphed like the culture that was once mandated by the Catholics or Church of England, etc, etc, into a secular one where religion and political power no longer mix - corrupting both. 

                    My words ARE harsh for people who seem unwilling or unable to grasp even simple realities, such as the above.   They can't be reasoned with or debated, because they refuse to think or to move their brains outside of rigid dogma.    I'm no paragon of wisdom, but if I can grasp it, so can anyone, and there is simply no excuse left at all for what people continue to say and post.   We live in a t ime when literally the fate of the world economy and the life we know is literally moments from complete collapse, a disaster of proportions unseen since, say, the Deluge.   

                    And yet, they want to keep the blinders on and dance around the intellectual real eastate equivalent to dancing on the head of a pin.    There's no time left to coddle with nice words.   It's wake up or die.

                  2. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                    Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    He obviously needs to be house broken.

    2. tony0724 profile image61
      tony0724posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wasn't that guy who wanted to blow up Comedy Central in Times Square officially an American Citizen ? And John Walker Lindh ?

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Tony - both examples are Americans who were radicalized. So you have from 2 MILLION Muslims, given 2 examples of Americans who were conscriped by overseas radicals. (The phrase on-in-a-million comes to mind.) What I was and am demanding from the bigors doesn't exist.

        There is no evidence that a significant portion of Muslims in the USA are radicalized, violent or dangerous.  I am NOT saying that they can all walk on water. I don't subscibe to their beliefs - but I DO subscribe to the AMERICAN principle of freedom of religion.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          There is no "radicalized".   They are following a mainstream sect of Islam.   I wrote a hub about this, perhaps you should read it, so you'll stop saying silly stuff that's nowhere near true.

        2. Jim Hunter profile image60
          Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "I don't subscibe to their beliefs - but I DO subscribe to the AMERICAN principle of freedom of religion."


          As long as the religion isn't Christian in nature.

          Typical liberal.

          You hate religion of any sort except the only religion that actually demands its followers to kill you.

          The fact that most of the worlds population of Muslims don't kill the so called infidels is just proof that they (like most Christians) are posers.

          Thank God for it.

  4. CMHypno profile image89
    CMHypnoposted 6 years ago

    It's up to the Australian authorities to deal with this Imam if he is breaking the laws of Australia.

    I doubt that the majority of Muslims in the world have even heard of this guy and his fatwa.  Probably the best thing for everyone to do is just ignore him and not blow up what he is saying into a huge worldwide media thing, which is exactly what he wants to happen.

  5. Cleanclover profile image58
    Cleancloverposted 6 years ago

    The imam is doing it just for significance. Violence is a means through which people fulfill the need to show how important they are. Just ignore them and see what happens ;-))

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We ignore them and they promote more violence.   That's what happens.   We ignored it in the middle east, and now we a whole region in the world governed by it's most violent and repressive factions.   

      Duhh.   The most stupid advice ever.  Ignores history, ignores present world conditions, ignores everything.   Head in the sand, they call it.   Does not work, every time it's tried.

      1. 0
        Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The Muslims hoping to build a community center have been praying in that same spot for about 8 years already.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          So?  I don't care where people pray.   It is of no concern to me.

          1. 0
            Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes you do.  Remember, you said,

            "Giving people who wish to be aligned with Islam space to organize and strategize how to make this a world-wide, universal Islam is a really stupid idea."

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              So, you equate "Where people pray" with a massive, 15 floor building, with 10 floors designed for "other purposes"?   

              Come now, you're just be deliberately dense.

              1. 0
                Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It's not a Mosque, it's a cultural center, and the point of their praying there is to note that building a cultural center is not something new that's intended to create havoc.

                My local church is held in a small gathering room at a fire station.  The pastor would love to build a Christian cultural center.  He aims to bring facilities to the people here, especially those who are impoverished.

                You call me dense, yet it seems you miss the point.  They've prayed there, and now they want a bigger, better building.  It's quite simple.  And furthermore, you imply with your punctuation that these "other purpurses" are opaque, but you can visit the website here:  http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=con … -questions
                and see that they are quite transparent.

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Except you are wholly wrong.

                  1. 0
                    Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Why am I wrong?

  6. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago

    "Islam" doesn't do anything.  A person does, and *he* is responsible for what he does.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sure.   But if he is born in, grows up in, and is indoctrinted, educated, and told to worship in a specific ideological environment, having never seen any other, how is he or she to "blame" for doing what they believe is true and good?

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
        Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You mean like Scott Roeder who killed Dr. George Tiller in his church?

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I have no idea who either of these people is.   Could you give me some reference to what you're talking about?

          1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
            Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Scott Roeder is a fanatical anti-abortion Christian who shot and killed Dr. Tiller,, (not Petty), an abortion doctor, while he was ushering in his (Tiller's) church in Topeka, Kansas. Roeder was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced, as I recall, to life in prison.

        2. Jim Hunter profile image60
          Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You mean George Tiller


          There is no bible quotation instructing Christians to kill Doctors or blow up abortion clinics.

          But, the Koran has them instructing its followers to kill any person of a different religion.

          Not all Muslims are killing or even support terrorism, but there is certainly a lot of them.

          1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
            Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks! Yes, I meant George Tiller. True, I don't believe the Bible mentions abortion. However, plenty of staunch Christians demonstrate carrying signs such as "Stop Murdering Children!", "Stop killing babies!", "Abortion is murder!" etc. And they harass patients, doctors and medical personnel at abortion clinics. The clerics who encourage these actions contribute to atrocities like the murder of Dr. Tiller by Scott Roeder.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              So when the SEUI pickets and harrasses a business, they're encouraging violence and atrocities?   

              Actually, they just commit them themselves, probably hoping others will, too.

              1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That's SEIU, sorry.

              2. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The SEIU neither advocates, promotes, concones or commits violence against employers.

                They exercise their right under the law to strike and picket employers. It's not correct to call this harassment unless the pickets go overboard and engage in unlawful behavior. The law prohibits union pickets from interfering with ingress or egress from company property. On occasion pickets do attempt to block plant gates, but they are usually removed by police called by the employer.

                1. Jim Hunter profile image60
                  Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Ralph, are you that uninformed about the SEIU?

                  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-b … 96399.html

                  1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                    Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, I certainly don't condone the SEIU's actions in this case. I haven't had any dealings with the SEIU. I'll keep an eye out for more information on the organization.

            2. Jim Hunter profile image60
              Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              How do they contribute?

              Unless they are preaching that their followers should murder Dr's or blow up abortion clinics they are not contributing. Do you have any proof that there are "clerics" doing this? If so you should report it to the police ASAP.

  7. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago

    re: Christianity never used for killing -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Your own link demonstrates this is not "Christianity" in the slightest, but a cult,  led by a self professed prophet, and does not follow Christ, but him.

      1. 0
        Devrieposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Many Muslims feel the same way about al-qaeda:  http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If Al Qaeda were alone in its actions, I'd have a whole different take on organized Islam.    But it isn't.   Every Islamic nation is a horror of violence, repression, killing and terrorism.   

          It isn't by accident, it isn't by chance.   It is intrinsically linked to the organized factions of Islam that are allied with or even just are, the government.

  8. Doug Hughes profile image59
    Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago

    "Islam is defined by the mainstream, not the far fringe who mostly live within our legal framework and don't accept the violence or other regressive cultural baggage."

    ""Shariah Index Project" are intrinsicly linked with the Ground Zero Mosque...  for the express purpose of imposing sharia law... HERE."

    Both these quotes from birdbrain are from this post. The first one is his response to the obvious fact that almost all Muslims in America are well adjusted culturally. The second quote, made earlier, reflects the true parania. But he's willing to talk out both sides of his beak when the truth of the matter makes him look like a dodo.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL, Doug.  My case is supported by facts.   

      You conveniently left out that Muslims in America account for between 1.5 and 3 tenths of one percent of the total Muslim population world-wide.   You keep insisting that somehow the fact that we've only had a few hundred violent incidences, that this means that magically, mainstream Islam changes when it crosses a politcial boundary, and becomes something different.   

      Our cultural conditioning and mores have shielded us for some time from the actions of those whose faith demands violence from them.   But, with the decay of our culture, and the defense of violent Islam, you can know that this violence is going to increase dramatically.   

      Your imaginary world, where the small fraction of one percent defines the whole is both insulting to every rational person's intelligence, and lying to yourself, to boot.   We know what the leaders of Islam promote, they're doing it everywhere, all across Europe, the UK, etc.   The imposition of Shariah law universally.    Don't be stupid and pretend that it magically morphs into a "religion like any other" when political boundaries are crossed.   It does not.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You haven't explained how shariah law is going to be imposed in the US when Muslims make up .6% of the US population. HOW????? Yes there are a lot of Muslims overseas and some are bad guys. Are they building landing craft for an invasion?  You seem to think you have some secret information, I guess, becuase there's a lot of gaps in your theory.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          There are no "gaps in the theory" because it isn't a theory.   "theory" would mean I am speculating about something.    There is no speculation, because all of this is observed fact,  backed up by recent history, by the words of those engaged in the process.   

          THEY SAY IT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.   How on earth can you call it a theory?

    2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Further, I would like to point out to you that the majority of American Muslims are native born, and are generaly first and some second generation.   These people are more (first) and less (second) immersed in our culture.   Again, as I've stated perfectly clearly, these cultural mores prevent the adoption of and the belief in the conflicting aspects of Islam.   

      However, none of this is true when it comes to immigrants.  They have no cultural immunity, and in fact, generally have cultural CONFORMITY to Islam.   They do not integrate themselves into society, they segregate themelves FROM it, by congregating in concentrations whereever they are.  This pattern of behavior is the norm, world wide.   IT is seen in the US, France, The Netherlands, Sweden, and many other places that are westernized.  Often these neighborhoods become so violent and so xenophobic that the police won't even go there (France and Sweden have already documented this thoroughly), and have turned thier area into an Islamic region.   

      This self segregation is voluntary and deliberate.  It is meant to insulate themselves from being influenced by what they consider to be the degeneracy of western freedoms.    You're wrong about all this, Doug.  I'm very much right, and have the overall perspective you'd unable to comprehend.   You REALLY need to wake up.

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
        Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are incorrectly assuming that all or most Muslims in other countries harbor terrorist tendencies. This is a great exaggeration.
        [You are one of the most impolite and opinionated participants in these forums in recent memory. And that's saying quite a lot.]

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hmmm...   You know, I've explained everyting at least three times, and you STILL come up with this tripe.   No, I do NOT assume ANYTHING about individuals holding terrorist tendencies.   Cripes.   You just can't  be honest, can you?     I never said anything about every Muslim being a terrorist.   

          I'm impolite?   Most liberals here spend every post insulting and verbally bashing other people.   

          Just look what they write about TEA Party people.    That basis alone should be adequate to ban scores of people for being completely unfit for civilization.

          1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
            Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            "Again, as I've stated perfectly clearly, these cultural mores prevent the adoption of and the belief in the conflicting aspects of Islam.   

            "However, none of this is true when it comes to immigrants.  They have no cultural immunity, and in fact, generally have cultural CONFORMITY to Islam."

            There are significant variations in Islam among countries and within countries. Your comment assumes that all Muslim immigrants' views are the same (violent).

            1. Doug Hughes profile image59
              Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              And true tpo the Limbaugh formula, birdbrain keeps repeating the same OPINIONS as if they were facts - expecting that like limbaugh lemmings we will go along. Contrary to all that birdbrain wants to convince you - domestic Islam is NOT a threat. ( A few domestic nuts are, but not Islam as a whole in the US.)

              If birdbrain is proposing that the US embark on a global Crusade against Islam.... he's setting records in abject insanity. If birdbrain (and friends) are nop proposing discrimination and persecution on the home fron - or a global crusade, perhaps they will honor us whit just WTF their intentions ARE twoards Moslems - and which ones.

            2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I'm telling you that when they come from a country that is Islamic, they do NOT have the cultural resistance to many things we do.   What this has to do with terrorism, I'm not sure.   

              Just do the math, though and ask yourself why almost all terrorism conducted globally is conducted by Muslims...   Not all, just the great majority.   Coincidences don't happen this way.   Especially when you read the published beliefs and the preaching going on all over  the world.   It is not coincidental, there is a direct link.   AFter all, if you demand that X dies in the name of Islam, and some follower of Islam kills X, we do comprehend the link, and those who don't have a problem with reality.

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                There are a number of reasons for terrorism most of which have little or nothing to do with Islam. Some of them relate to the conflict in Palestine and U.S. support for Israel. Others relate to the perception that the U.S. is propping up oppressive governments in a number of Arab countries. Still others relate to the religious conflict between militant Hindus in India and fanatical Muslims in Pakistan. And, as you have observed, the Muslim ghettos in France and other European countries are breeding grounds for terrorists. I don't think you are correct that Muslims choose to ghettoize themselves any more than any other immigrant groups do upon arrival in another country. This was true in the U.S. of the Irish, Italians, Hispanics, etc.

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  That is pure hogwash.   Popular myths.

                  1. alternate poet profile image78
                    alternate poetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh dear - the facts don't support your narrow bigoted views again?   Never mind I am sure some other flat-earther will come by and say nothing with you, over and over and over again.  It doesn't change the facts that you seem to be so ignorant about.

  9. Ron Montgomery profile image61
    Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago

    "But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them - the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites … - just as the Lord your God has commanded." (Deut 20:16-17)

  10. Ron Montgomery profile image61
    Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago

    Arise and thresh, O daughter Zion, for I will make your horn iron and your hoofs bronze; you shall beat in pieces many nations … (Micah 4:13).

  11. Ron Montgomery profile image61
    Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago

    "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". (2 Thess 1:7-8)

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks, Ron.

  12. RFox profile image81
    RFoxposted 6 years ago

    Wow, these forums are a direct illustration of the difficulties we have in this world. A microcosm of much larger issues of humanity.

    It's enlightening and disturbing at the same time. While, not surprising given we've been having these arguments since the invention of language itself.

    It seems the more words we learn, in fact, the less ability we have to listen.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      While not putting down "listening",  how do you expect people to choose what to "listen" to?   Listening, just for the sake of listening, profits you nothing.   For listening to bring you wisdom, you must find those who have it, and then actively seek it, and learn it. 

      I have nothing to learn from someone like Obama, or "lovemychris", as I long ago displaced myself from where they are.  I learned that I needed to be discriminating in who I "listened" to.   I stopped listeing to pundits, and I started listening to people with experience and demonstrated wisdom.   We have to listen to history, it gives us  guide to judge what is wise and what isn't, and what is true and what isn't.  But history isn't a person and it doesn't speak.   It's something we must proactively go and find and make part of our being.   

      So, what is your definition of "listening"?   How do you suggest choosing whom to "listen" to and who not to?

      1. RFox profile image81
        RFoxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        We don't choose who we listen to....we just listen. Then we contemplate, then we listen some more.

        We do not have to agree with people we listen to. We simply hear their opinion. Listening is not a tacit agreement of the other persons thought it is merely an action: to listen.

        I believe it is beneficial and important to our development to listen to people from vastly different walks of life and philosophical viewpoints than our own.

        We have a saying in Buddhism that the people who would do us the most harm (what others may call enemies) can be our greatest teachers.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Passively absorbing everything you hear is not wisdom.  Nor is it useful. 

          As to your last statement, you learn much from how people attack you, and how you respond to them, if you're honest.  But you do not learn wisdom from bad people.   

          That notion is based on moral equivalency of two entities vying for something, in which case learning frorm your OPPONENT is just good common sense, but in our case, and on here,  we're not "enemies" as in "opponents".   There are people who seek control and those who wish not to be controlled, and that's pretty much the dividing line.   The maxim doesn't work as written.

          1. RFox profile image81
            RFoxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree. I did not say that it was.



            This part I obviously disagree with as per my previous post. It is always useful to listen.



            When I say we learn more from those who attack us (either philosophically, emotionally or physically) and why they are our greatest teachers has to do with what we learn about ourselves in the process.

            How we choose to respond under situations of such distress are more telling and honest about who we are as people. It reveals our attachments, our hidden thoughts.

            It exposes our conscious mind to the subconscious undercurrents that alter the way we choose to act/behave in the world every day. It is only through revealing these attachments and our ego that we can hope to process this information and hopefully let it go.

            By observing, acknowledging and then letting go of undesired thoughts and behaviours within ourselves we are able to move more towards wisdom and compassion.

            We cannot control other people. We cannot control their thoughts, emotions, actions or intentions and nor should we. We can only control ourselves.

            However, through carefully controlling our own behaviour we can in fact create a behavioural shift in those around us.

            smile

  13. Petroley profile image60
    Petroleyposted 6 years ago

    The name of topic is so SHAME! you can not condemn Islam because of the crazy individuals! Shame on you! I did not expect this kind of topic here...

    1. Shadesbreath profile image90
      Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Get used to it.  While most of HP is filled with reasonable or semi-reasonable people, there are a number of tiny minds who are incapable of anything but puppet-like reactionism and are the slaves of dogma. 

      Don't think of it as endemic to HubPages so much as endemic to humanity.  HP has way more normal people than whackos.  The whackos just make more noise.  They have to or no one would bother noticing them.

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
        Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        True. His is one of the tiniest and nastiest and most intolerant.

    2. tony0724 profile image61
      tony0724posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Islam has a track record that has kinda earned it.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah. Too right. No Christians ever killed anyone innit. Ever read a history book?

        Did you go to school?

        1. K Kiss profile image73
          K Kissposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thumbs up Knowles!!

        2. RFox profile image81
          RFoxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hey welcome back! You've missed some interesting discussions and your hub birthday party.

          big_smile

        3. Jim Hunter profile image60
          Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Too true, but you find those offenses in a history book.

          Islams crimes can be found in today's news.

          Maybe you should live in the present.

          Ever read an internet article?

          Now call me a troll and go hide.

          1. Doug Hughes profile image59
            Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            What you wingnuts deliberately ignore - over and over - as you point at the abuses of some Muslims overseas is the 2 Million Muslims in America - naturalized citizens we live and work with who are NOT involved in the examples you cite. These are who you want to persecute and condemn in a guilt-by-association game.

            Of course you will day you didn't condemn anyone. Right. But in  a virtual way, you and birdbrain are standing there with a rope trying to whip up a virtual lynch mob. And I am pleased to see that on hub pages - we aren't going along with it.

            1. Jim Hunter profile image60
              Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              "What you wingnuts deliberately ignore - over and over - as you point at the abuses of some Muslims overseas"

              I have a very hard time taking you serious. When did New York move overseas?

              Is Ft Hood now overseas?

              "These are who you want to persecute and condemn in a guilt-by-association game."

              You say as you "condemn in a guilt-by-association game." You should really read what you write sometimes.

              "Of course you will day you didn't condemn anyone. Right. But in  a virtual way, you and birdbrain are standing there with a rope trying to whip up a virtual lynch mob. And I am pleased to see that on hub pages - we aren't going along with it."

              I suppose you mean 'deny we didn't condemn anyone'. I condemn any terrorist who follows Islam, Christianity,Wicca, etc. Don't you?

            2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, there's about 2 tenths of one percent of the Muslims world wide who live here.   And probably about .2% of the violence or efforts to inflict violence, committed by Muslims.   

              Certainly, it would be helpful if someone had the statistical compilation.

          2. RFox profile image81
            RFoxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            In 1995 "The Serbian Orthodox Christian attacks on Muslims was elevated to the level of genocide."

            This was covered in many newspapers around the world.

            I don't want to stir up any arguments but just present this as a very well documented fact in modern history.

            I was also given a very personal account from a Bosnian Muslim friend of mine of who was standing in an open populated square when Christian Serbians opened fire and began picking innocent civilians off one by one as they were running for their lives.

            Interestingly, his Mosque does not allow any teachings of hate or intolerance for others/other religions to be heard. They believe in forgiveness, tolerance and compassion.
            His mother and sister do not cover themselves or wear the headdress. It is their personal choice not to.

            All religions have had people who chose to perpetrate hate and have committed acts of violence using religion as the justification. None of our belief systems are immune from this unfortunate side of humanity. It is a fundamental human flaw that we can find justification for violence and ignorance in anything if we so choose.

            1. Jim Hunter profile image60
              Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You are correct of course.

              However, what happened there is an aberration its not a common occurrence world wide.

              There is a Muslim terrorist somewhere right now plotting a horrific crime because their religion teaches them that is what they are supposed to do.

              When Christian terrorists start committing these acts I will speak out against them.

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                "Because that's what their religion teaches them to do."

                That's a very simplistic conclusion. See my comment on this topic above.

                1. Jim Hunter profile image60
                  Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  It really is that simple.

                  I read your comment and agree to an extent, but the willful suicide bombers all have religious thoughts of virgins in their head as the shout Allah Akbar.

                  It is, in the end their religion that helps them see the light so to speak.

        4. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I sure did go to school.   I learned all about the Inquisition and the Dark Ages, and how and why religion and political power must NEVER mix, or evil prospers.   

          So, what did you learn in school relevant to mixing religion and political power?    And why are you so defending it when it comes to Islam, but pretend that modern Christianity is the moral equivalent?

      2. Petroley profile image60
        Petroleyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ok, you want to say that Islam is just terroristic organization right? MAN OPEN YOUR EYES, JUST TAKE A LOOK WHAT AMERICA AND ISRAEL DID IN PALESTINE AND IRAQ! THEY KILLED BIG NUMBER OF INNOCENT KIDS, WOMANS, OLD POPULATION, JUST REMEMBER 1995., BOSNIA, SREBRENICA, THERE ARE 10000 KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLES BY SERBS, AND THE "BEST COUNTRY" AMERICA DOES NOT MOVE A FINGER FOR THAT, EUROPE WAS JUST LOOKING WHAT THAT SERBS DOING!

        SHAME ON YOU ALL!

        You talking about Islam, and you do not know anything about it, just take and read first page of Holy Quran and I think you will change your mind.

        My parents taught my to separate peoples on good and evil, not witch religion or nation are they.

        1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
          weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You'd do well to learn some history, so you don't repeate nonsense like you posted.

          1. Petroley profile image60
            Petroleyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Guys like you and this Mark are one big reason of Muslims "aggressive" behavior, why? Well I am going to tell you why, because you are the one who spread evil, you are the one who offending Islam, so WE MUST FIGHT BACK TO SURVIVE! Tony Blair said "Oh sorry Iraq we were wrong" AFTER KILLING THOUSANDS ON INNOCENT MUSLIMS! Bush start all this bullshit, because his plan was only to destroy Islam, there are not any atomic bomb in Middle East, there is just "BLACK GOLD" that America robbed from that poor countries! But I BELIEVE IN GODS JUSTICE! I BELIEVE IN JUDGMENT DAY! THEN WHEN ALL OF YOU FREAKS STAND IN FRONT OF GOD, THEN ITS GONNA BE TO LATE FOR Repentance! I does not offend CHRISTIANITY, BECAUSE ME RELIGION TAUGHT TO RESPECT OTHERS, DIFFERENT RELIGION AND NATION!

            WE ARE MUCH STRONGER THAN YOU THINK! TIME IS GONNA TO PROVE THAT!

            Peace with you

            1. Jim Hunter profile image60
              Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Why are you screaming?

              1. Petroley profile image60
                Petroleyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I did not ask you anything, so keep your mouth shut!

                1. Jim Hunter profile image60
                  Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol

                  How bout I keep my fingers shut?

                  1. Ron Montgomery profile image61
                    Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    And your cheeks clenched.

                2. Sylvie Strong profile image60
                  Sylvie Strongposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I would suggest you take it down a notch.  At worst you will get flagged and barred (at least temporarily) from the forum.  Even if not, these kinds of responses don't have any value in a forum.  You are not the only offender here, and there are some that have a history of attacking other hubbers.  But you seem new to this thread and I want to suggest you find a more constructive way of proceeding.

    3. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, you do not grasp the nature of world wide Islam.    Or seek to bury your head and pretend it doesn't exist.

  14. K Kiss profile image73
    K Kissposted 6 years ago

    I am surprised that hubpages allows such topics to be in the forum.
    It seems like weholdthesetruths motive behind joining hubpages is quite suspicious. He has no right to accuse another religion in the way he's been doing. He is not just attacking a religion but he has incessantly attacked those who threatened his ideas.
    If you think that you are capable of handling a forum topic then start acting like a grown up before crying like a baby and clawing at whatever you can get hold of as a way of your comeback...

  15. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

    and you can say this about every religion, yes?

    the title of this thread shows ignorance and lack of understanding. every major religion has many different forms of practice and interpretation. anyone can take a text and make it mean what they want it to. there is a huge difference between radical Muslim and the Islam religion just as there is a vast difference between fundamentalist Christians and Unitarians. I know a number of Muslims and they would be insulted by this thread. They are kind, intelligent, hard working people and their kids are respectful and highly intelligent.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My GaWD, how DARE anyone look around the world and report what has happend?   I mean, seriously,  look at those bastions of freedom and peace, like Iran and Indonesia and Saudi Arabia.    Why, the rule of Islam has made them cultural icons of enlightenment and forward thought. Not to mention, economic powerhouses of innovation, invention, and intellectual firepower.   Why Islam invented freedom of religion and only kills apostates when they really really deserve it, not just for say, disagreement or anything.   Countries that are Islamic are all peace and light and It is all due to the control over the state by Islamic scholars and committees and so on.   

      Take Iran's recent election.  Why, the government was so hurt by false accusations of election stealing they had to kill the accusers just to prevent discord among the peaceful and happy people. 

      Good gawd.   IF HP requires blatant ignorance and stupidity to be part of it, then things are beyond hope.

  16. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Well put RFox....it is good to come across voices of reason...

  17. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Jim....read Operation Northwoods.....you will see how terrorism can be perpetrated by the United States and its agents...and blamed on someone else...in this case "Communist Cubans" (the godless)....

    They write of ongoing hijackings to be blamed on Cuba...but it is Americans carrying them out....

    They speak of the creation of a "Communist Cuban terror campaign" in New York, Miami, Washington D.C. and elsewhere....but it would be Americans carrying out the attacks...

    Therefore, what we know compared to what we think we know are very different things...

    Secondly, "Islamic" terrorism is different from fragmented groups fighting for control....

    Third, perhaps you should read about Christian Armenian terrorist groups...which exist....

    And what of the KKK, and other American bread hategroups? 

    Terrorism?

    Hang a noose from a tree somewhere in the United States...especially directed towards African Americans and Mexican Americans, and we will see how quickly the remembrances of born and breed American Christian terrorism take hold.....

    Terrorist acts don't have to take lives.......

  18. Herbs Master profile image59
    Herbs Masterposted 6 years ago

    How can the words of one man can represent one billion muslims?

    I'm still confused......

    1. Jim Hunter profile image60
      Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How many of the one Billion are condemning his words?

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Most of the one billion Muslims don't know - of those who do know, most don't care. But among the wingnuts it's an opportunity to spread hate. And you are doing your part.

        1. Jim Hunter profile image60
          Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "Most of the one billion Muslims don't know - of those who do know, most don't care. But among the wingnuts it's an opportunity to spread hate. And you are doing your part."

          Sounds like the Imam is spreading hate, where is your outrage for that?

          Its nonexistent much like your credibility in regards to this subject.

          But you are fun to watch, I love to see the mental meltdowns, its very entertaining.

          1. Doug Hughes profile image59
            Doug Hughesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The meltdowns are happening when the wingnuts who are determined to sperad fear of domestic Muslims, by citing problems with international muslims can't get the reaction of terror they want.  Ther's still too many rational people in the USA.

            1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
              weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              After all this, you're still utterly confused... Or else delibeately dishonest, I have no idea which, about the MOTIVATIONS of trying to bring clarity to the conflict between the western democracies, and the religio-authoritarian oligarchs in the Islamic world.   

              Until you grasp the nature of the conflict, you're going to be unable to even comprehend what's going on, and you're going to continue to make utterly baseless charges of spreading hate and other such ignorant tripe.

              1. Friendlyword profile image61
                Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Sir... You give a few examples of outrageous statements said or written by someone like yourself. Then with that; you try to condemn all people that believe in a religion that wants nothing to do with people like him or you. True Muslims speak out everyday against sick, twisted, hateful people like that "Imam" and you. You are both dangerous liars out to hurt innocent people that would have nothing to do with your kind of preaching of hate.

                How in the world could all the Muslims living here in America; buying houses, raising families, working hard every day, want to destroy the very country they made their Country? 

                Who would live amongst people they plan to destroy and thereby destroying themselves?

                Sir... you are a liar and an instigator of the worst kind!

                1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
                  weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  No, sir.  YOUI LIE.   right here:  "Then with that; you try to condemn all people that believe in a religion that wants nothing to do with people like him or you. "

                  That is abosolutely untrue.   What I've written is crystal clear, and it is completely at odds with your comments.   Why do you lie?

                  1. Friendlyword profile image61
                    Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    INFANTILE RESPONSE

    2. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wow...  Try as you might, people still not grasp the reality of things.   Islam is not defined by the individuals who have no authority.   It is defined by those in power, those who have the means and authority and power to project their wishes upon others and force it to happen.   

      Islam is defined by how the leadership speaks, and the followers and subjects have no voice.

  19. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    But rational minds are broken down by those who are deluded.....especially by stuff like this:


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9ZyZ4H0c5PI/R2gyT02ZMrI/AAAAAAAAAMo/HcvP4amQC9g/s320/41L5O6XpdfL._SS500_

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Fortunately, you're wrong, and few people read old french novels and try to pretend they're somehow representations of real life.

  20. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

    you are the one who starts these blatantly ignorant threads. please.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The only ignorance here, is the people who attempt to deny the nature of the established authorities of Islam.

  21. weholdthesetruths profile image59
    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago

    All one has to do, is read the reponses.   An Imam, echoing hundreds of calls from many places in the world, calls for the beheading of a public figure, Geert Wilders.   He isn't the first, nor will he be the last, either to target Wilders, or call for the killing of public figures who "insult Islam". 

    From the responses to this post, you find two camps of people.  One who recognize that the authoritied, moneyed, and empowered figures of Islam will never recant or refute such calls, and in fact, have called for other deaths, of their own doing.  The other camp of people is horrified that anyone would mention this, and point it out in public.  They side with Islamists, because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". 

    They make irrational argumetns, claiming that to publicise the corruption and evil of the established heirarchy of Islam is to spread hate for the hundreds of millions of followers.   

    Yet, it becomes obvious that this is a religion at war with secularism, and willing to exercise deadly power to achieve its ends.  The parallels between the corrupt Islam and the Catholicism of the dark ages is striking.  Each is a reminder of the danger of mixing religion and power, whether that power is secular, police, military, or political.   Regardless of the mixing, both become corrupt, as self appointed arbiters of right and wrong, good and evil deign to tell the world what it must do, how it must act, and that to challenge the rule of that religio-authoritarian construct is evil. 

    Of course, the whiners are wrong.   Pointing out the nature of Islam is simply bringing about truth to the unknowing.  It also points to the clash of cultures and why they clash, and it demonstrates the reason why a steady stream of Mulsims in the US and elsehwere in the world continue to commit crimes against other people in the name of Islam. 

    Islam, as it is constructed by the powers that be, is in diametric opposition to the secular state and civil freedoms that western countries consider to be the intellectual foundation of governance and rationality. 

    But since the tiny minority of Muslims world wide  reside in America, and a somewhat larger minority reside in the free and western civilizations of Europe, find themselves in the uncomfortable position of having the authoritarian, self professed and self appointed definers of their religion placing the definition of their faith in direct conflict with the countries they live in.  Obviously, some choose to follow fully, some halt, unwilling to "go there", and a few speak out.  Yet, the hold Islam has on a huge region of the world shows no signs of retreat.  Western civilization has been in conflict, sometimes violent, for centuries with Islam.  At times, it has been a religious war, motivated by opposing powers of religous organizations.   

    This is not now true, as the west has no single religion, is not controlled by any religion, and specifically rejects the notion of combining faith and politics.  Our professed belief is challenged by this religion which is not a religion as we in the west define religions.  We believe in "freedom of religion", but it is actually only "freedom of the individual to believe as he wishes".  If the beliefs of the individual conflict with the liberties and freedoms recognized and defended by the state, then there is a line we recognize that cannot be crossed. 

    Any minister who calls for the assassination of anyone would be immediately be jailed and tried on criminal charges.  Every mainstream religious congregation would not only agree, but back the enforcement of criminal charges. 

    This concept, this construct of authority is in direct conflict with a basic foundation of the means by which the powers of Islam maintain those powers, and in direct conflict with the way they define right and wrong.   

    I pity the soul who finds they are attached to a name and structure of beliefs, who has that defined by people who would make him a criminal in his own country, should he follow them.  This represents a challenge to individuals nobody should have to endure.  But it is not politics in this country that put him in that place.  It is Islam itself, centuries old, that has a power structure that is intransigent, self serving and self referntial in nature. 

    But then, that's only one more way in which Islam is on conflict with its own adherents.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The world might be better off without Geert Wilders. From what I've read he sounds like a white racist axxhole.

      1. Friendlyword profile image61
        Friendlywordposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Any minister who calls for the assassination of anyone would be immediately be jailed and tried on criminal charges.  Every mainstream religious congregation would not only agree, but back the enforcement of criminal charges.

        Jerry Falwell got away with it!  Pat Robertson gets away with it all the time.

        Have Christians murdered just as many people as muslims have around the world? Abortion doctors, gays dont have to watch out for muslims.  They have to fear the man next door with a bible and a gun!

  22. weholdthesetruths profile image59
    weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago

    One last note:   The whiners here are desperate to peg Christianity as "violent".  Yet, they try to defend Islam, while at the same time, trying to invalidate Christianity, for being "the same or worse".   These same people would immediately scream "Dangerous violent radicals", and attempt to paint all Christians as  being that, should some preacher or minister or priest call for the assassination of some public American figure - especially if it were a liberal activist. 

    It's all dishonest, though.  Christianity must be perverted, to become the precise opposite of the teachings of Christ, upon whom it is based, in order to call for violence or harm to others. 

    Yet, there is a constant stream of authority figures who are Muslim, who call for such vioence in the name of Islam, citing doctrinal foundation for it.  Liberal's defense of Islam is that "American Muslims don't do it", as if somehow that made up for the 99.7 percent of the rest of the world, whose personal beliefs are undocumented, but yet the authority figures not only condone, but also perpetuate the calls for violence. 

    It is precisely the opposite logic, applied to two different and diametrically different situations, that allows them to maintain that "Conservative christians are evil, american muslims are good", and disagreeing is prejudice, hatred, bigotry, and altogether naughty-naughty.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      Keep it up dude. I love it when one religionist attacks another religion. Especially a religion as violent and hate filled as your is.

      "Love and forgive your fellow man - except the violent Muslims."

      They are equally as bad as each other - as is made clear by every word you wrote. I apply exactly the same logic to both irrational belief systems and every word you utter works just as well with yours.

      Worry not - The Islamists are just a few hundred years behind your ridiculous belief system and will have their teeth pulled as Kristianity has - eventually. Once the population starts to get regular access to a decent education - the problem will simply go away. This is a self evident truth. wink

      1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
        weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Your dishonesty is showing.  You don't know anything about "my religion", nor even what it is.  Yet, you claim it is "violent".   

        Welcome to the land of liberal religion, where the only doctrine is hatred of the other sides and the only commandment is to lie.

        1. earnestshub profile image86
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If it is biblical it is violent.

          1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
            weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Back the nonsense again?

  23. Friendlyword profile image61
    Friendlywordposted 6 years ago

    By the way...It looks like Hubpages is becoming a disgusting rag akin to the NEW YORK POST!

  24. RFox profile image81
    RFoxposted 6 years ago

    Just to let everyone know the President of the Islamic Association of Australia has officially denounced Feiz Mohammad's (the extremist Imam) comments:

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/preacher … utostart=1

    Quote: "Sheikh Fedaa Majzoub, the vice-president of the NSW branch of the National Imams Council, said that wherever the comments were made, they were ''completely rejected by us as Islamic authorities'' and were just as extreme as those made by Mr Wilders."

    It is unfortunate that the most extreme and violent people in our world tend to shout the loudest and get the most press coverage.

    However, they are not the only voices out there.

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I love this bit of nonsense:  "Sheikh Fedaa Majzoub, the vice-president of the NSW branch of the National Imams Council, said that wherever the comments were made, they were ''completely rejected by us as Islamic authorities'' and were just as extreme as those made by Mr Wilders."

      Still playing "manipulate the people", and still making weasel words rejections.   

      BTW, not understanding Wilders language, I don't know much about him, but what little I know, he cites published works of Islamic authors for what he says.    It seems the condemnation should be whom he cites, not him.

    2. earnestshub profile image86
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We have a fine upstanding muslim community spread all over my city as we have all other faiths.

      Most are more interested in how much love they can give their children in a rich free society than in causing any conflict.

      I know many who feel welcome and at home here.

  25. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    We hold these truths....you are untruthful again...

    The Camp of the Saints is still very popular...increasingly so in the United States....

    Great fountains of wisdom, like John Tanton's "Social Contract Press" put this stuff out more and more....

    I suppose your wikipedia reading of this book made you feel empowered, but it didn't provide any actual substance....

    Having read this book, it demonstrates the threat to humanity that race combined with relgious and political spin can have....

    This book is dangerous in the wrong hands....

    Do your homework before you start trying to represent "truths"...

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't need to read the book, and I do not believe you can learn "truth" from a novel.    Maybe that's why you lvie in fantasyland, with "novel truths" about real life, which are... well... "novel".

      1. alternate poet profile image78
        alternate poetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        AT LAST we can agree about something - you cannot learn truth from a novel - so why keep talking about the bible as if it is important ?

        1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
          Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Much truth can be learned from a good novel or a serious movie. Both deal with contemporary moral and social issues more accessibly and meaningfuly than the Bible.

        2. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Because the bible is not a novel:

          n.
          A fictional prose narrative of considerable length, typically having a plot that is unfolded by the actions, speech, and thoughts of the characters.
          The literary genre represented by novels.

          It's an account written by over forty different men who mainly never conversed or met, but managed to produce a historical account of how God deals with humanity.

          Your snide attempt to discredit Gods word has not gone unnoticed, by me or by God,

  26. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    "Dr." Jones in Florida's "national burn a koran day" is terrorism....

    I wonder what other "christians" think of this man and his anti-muslim message.....

    Mr. Jones' "ministry" can be found at:

    http://www.doveworld.org

    This dove is packing a ton of "mob anger" crossed with "christian crusade".....so be careful...

    What bafoons these people are...reckless, irresponsible, hypocritical...and to top it off, completely self-righteous...

    1. weholdthesetruths profile image59
      weholdthesetruthsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You equate burning a book with terrorism? 

      Has everyone's brain turned to mush?

      1. Ron Montgomery profile image61
        Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No, not everyone's...

  27. mikelong profile image82
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    "Truth".....

    I am not talking about the burning of some book....but of a specific book...

    I am also speaking to the specific motive in this particular burning...

    I think you should tend to your own cerebral mush before you start looking to others...

  28. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image60
    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 6 years ago

    There are a lot of people, in every corner of the world, who use safe places like churches, mosques, temples, monasteries and synogogues, who seldom comes out and mingle with public. They are in the habit of inciting people to commit heinous crimes like murder, terrorism and rowdyism. They just "issue" fatwas to ignorant people and hide inside their "cells".

    Such people, who incite violence and sabotage public peace should be paraded in the streets for sometime and enrolled in armed forces. There, they will get discipline and change their attitude towards the society. They are enemies not only to others, but also to their own religion.

  29. earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    http://www.edkrebs.com/herb/petoons20/bagley.jpg

    This is a fair sample of American religion. smile

    1. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Very sweet Earnest, so we believers have united 2.5 billion believers in 31,000 sections of ONE CHURCH....

      ... whereas the rest of humanity are a majority of one in their self willed existence.

      1. earnestshub profile image86
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        United??? Have you missed all the religious threads? lol lol

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          United in our core belief:

          I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

          Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
          suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.  He descended into hell.

          The third day He arose again from the dead.

          He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

          I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
          the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
          the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

          Amen.

          Not thast the word 'catholic' is lower case, and refers to 'universal'.... as in ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

          No matter which branch someone is in, no matter how wacky their doctrines, if they subscribe to the above, they are brethren.

          What you fail to realise is that God hid His church (called out ones)amongst all these denominations, to protect us from the wolves without who oppose Christ and will (eventually) seek to destroy His church, if that were possible.

          For now the wolves have grown bolder, no longer red eyes lurking in the forest, but now running in packs seeking to devour those they may, and trying to goad and bait we believers away from the safety of the Word and into mindless debate about semantics.

          They (and you) will fail.

  30. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 6 years ago

    While Islam calls for it, Israel is busy doing it.

    and so are we!

 
working