Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf told CNN during an interview that he's not changing locations and that if it was moved that the reaction could be more furious than the eruption of violence from the 2005 cartoons. Does this mean moderate Muslims become violent and join the Islamists so easily?
Honestly, do you know what should happen right now?
He should be arrested for inciting violence.
But no, that wouldn't be politically correct.
We stopped holding anyone accountable for anti-Americanism years ago.
Oh please, even our supposed allies in Europe are anti-American.
Do you think so?
Such as which Nation(s)?
Or are you meaning that it's only treaties that keeps peace among the nations?
A hubber, I think called Alternate Poet, said that he was in a bar during the time when the September 11 attacks occurred and that everyone at the bar was celebrating when they saw it. Alternate Poet said that the Irish there were saying that the Americans deserved it or something like that.
That's terrible. How could people blame innocent American citizens for things that our government does? That's the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists.
To date US is manipulating pakistan, afganisthan which tempted hatred.
well normally americans dont know that..even bin laden is cia product and so is taliban...what cia does to maintain leverage is far from what america stands for..but guess political games are same every where...
not "manipulating", we're "bombing" them.
Please to be more accurate!!
Yes, please see: "Scandals in American History"
That's just the things that HAVE been released.
Oh, another good thing to research (here I'll do it for you)
Human experimentation in the United States.
Look, some of it's going on right now, still, in 2010!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_expe … ted_States
All government approved. And people say the government doesn't do bad things to people (THESE ARE ITS OWN CITIZENS!)
Here's one of his posts on one of the burning the koran thread
"Hmmmm ! Most of the world, that you quote, does not see it that way. They see that America started it, fueled it, inflamed it and the attacks on America were retaliation. To blindly say that 'they' are attacking you is to ignore the last 50 years of history. It is nto turning the other cheek and playing nice as you put it - it is turn the other cheek and stop fuelling the fires that is required, burning the Quran is fuelling the fire in the same way as burning the bible or national flags."
I don't want to put the wrong words in his mouth. I'll look for the one about him being in the bar too.
Here's the other post. Sorry it's a hire shop not a bar - although I have no idea what a hire shop is.
"It was not only Muslims who celebrated the twin towers terrorist act. I was in a hire shop in Belfast when it came through live on TV - the whole place without exception (not counting me) were wild with jubilation at the strike. It may well be the attitude of people like yourself that is responsible for the deep dislike of Americans in so many parts of the world."
A hire shop is where someone hires equipment, normally building stuff like cement mixers, jack hammers and such.
As for the mosque subject, I would let them build it on the day that Saudia Arabia agreed to a church in Mecca.
I'm shocked at this if its true. I can assure you that the people of Scotland, England, Wales and Spain have no such anti-America sentiments. Everyone was totally shocked at 9/11. I would also go further and say that the Irish are not anti-American either, at least none of the ones I've met.
Yeah but thats different.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but all Americans support the actions our government takes.
Ask any person on hubpages from a different country and they will tell you so.
Americans=the great Satan.
You can even ask some Americans and they will tell you the same thing.
Bad Americans, bad.
As i said in another thread. In Asia, Islamics celebrate whenever there is any trouble in America even if there is natural disaster. Especially in India, terrorists don't forget to kill or screw US/UK citizens if they get chance. You can confirm about this by reading about incidents like 26/11 (mumbai) and german bakery blast(pune). Watch "zakir naik" videos on youtube and see what he preaches. Palestinians spread all over the world celebrated when 9/11 incident happened.
I never expect tolerance from islam. I have seen closely what they're.
I have heard similar stories also, about people cheering when the buildings fell.
They were, thanks to Bush. Obama has repaired our relationships as much as possible in 2 short years.
Not in the UK he hasn't. In the rest of Europe yes, probably. He appears to be a little anti-British.
I'm okay with that. I think a lot of Americans are okay with that. Matter of fact- maybe that is why he is, because, it is what most Americans want.
He is still a servant to the American tax dollar, and is to represent the populace vote on such matters. Right?
It is also what the British want. A cooling off in the relationship between the UK and US is precisely what we need after the disasterous Bush-Blair alliance.
Now, its just time to bring our British troops home from America's war in the Middle East. Your war.
I didn't think we needed YOUR troops there in the first place. Apparently I am capable of handling the situation MYself.
So I guess the bomb that was planted on the bus that day, which killed several of YOUR people was My fault too. Seeing how you've singled handedly made me the ownership of the war in the middle east.
It's not MY war. Lets get that straight here and now.
no he shouldn't!!!!
That's complete nonsense!! Didn't i see you arguing that Glenn Beck shouldn't be accountable for what some jerk does in his name in another forum?
He has the right to say whatever he wants, and if our country hates freedom so much that we won't allow some guy to build a mosque, then I WILL JOIN THEM IN RESISTING TYRANNY.
Sharron Angle, the primary for Arizona (Hardcore Conservative Christian Republican) said that if the Republicans didn't win, expect them to use weapons.
You and Sharron Angle seem to like using hyperbole.
Why do you LIE? Angle said no such thing. And I know you're wrong, for one, she's running in NEVADA.
Oh my bad, I got her confused with the crazier chick Brewer. Don't care though, Angle did say it more then a couple times but of course you believe it is a lie. How can your precious Christian representatives be lying.
Bahahahhaha, Christian's don't lie! hahahhaahhaa. Brewer lied about headless bodies in the dessert of Arizona too, but no Christians don't lie! bahahhahahahah.
Angle did say something to the effect that it will be "time for the Second Amendment." What do you think she meant? BTW, we don't normally call other participants liars in this forum.
they just came on the news here in nashville, said the preacher said he may still burn the book.....first yes, then no, now yes....this is nuts
I would be very happy to see a source with this.
Kinda hard to talk about something if all we have to go on is your word of mouth.
And this is a forum, so clearly you want people to talk about it, right?
is this the "peaceful religion" President Obama was talking about?
I completely agree with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf!!!
if our country ACTUALLY gives up on freedom of religion, then there SHOULD be violence!! I'm an atheist, but I would jump in with my fellow religious freedom loving muslims to overthrow this government if they won't even allow some guy to build a building called a "mosque".
RIGHT ON, MY FELLOW FREEDOM LOVING PATRIOT!!!!
When a country who so often spouts its beliefs as based upon freedom, and if it would in the case of building a Muslim Community Center it would suspend those laws based upon the bigotry of its own citizens, then the reaction would only be the manifestation of Muslims learning that laws don't apply in the US if you are Muslim. Now, we aren't going to suspend our laws like you and your ilk believe we should, so no worries. He was simply stating a reasonable fact of cause and effect.
First off its not even a mosque, and to call it that is to feed the hate and continuing fear the media wants you to embrace so much. Lets try doing a little research beyond the news media shall we?
I'm so sick of violence involved with religion. Although it's not actually "violence," I also hate the book burning in FL. There's enough violence in the world from secular issues!
Unfortunately Habee, Islamists have taken over in Iran and a lot of other places. I don't think things will change unless the Islamist are thoroughly defeated.
Iran has been an Islamic country since 651AD, so I am not sure how you have to the conclusion that "Islamists have taken over in Iran", unless you are 1359 years behind in your news. I mean, who would have thought that the 'Islamic Republic of Iran' would have house muslims? What is the world coming to?
Don't worry though, that is only 841 before Columbus discovered America
You may have heard of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, the one where the hard line Islamic fascists overthrew the Monarchy?
That wasn't in 651 AD it was 31 years ago.
Maybe before your time.
You seem to be a little confused by the definition of 'Islamic'.
An Islamist supports or advocates Islamic Fundamentalism. If you think that the muslims in Iran in 651AD were not 'Islamists' then you are gravely mistaken.
Yes I have heard of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, a return to the countries traditional fundamentalism.
You may not have heard of the Islamic Conquest of Persia in 652AD onwards, or rule of Abu Eshaq Kazeruni in the 10th century AD which brought about the mass conversion of Zoroastrians to Islam.
Or how about the first Shi'a Islamic state in Iran under the Safavid Dystany?
You fail to note that in 1925 the Iranian Royal Family (Qajar Dystany) was overthrown by Reza Khan. That, my friend, was when the true Monarchy were overthrown. This was the very first Iranian parliamentary system.
This democracy still didn't satisfy the ideals of the west though did it? They were overthrown by the British and Americans who wanted to use their railroad capacity in WWII (nice of us hey?). The Iranian government was highly popular with their people, having nationalised their oil industries.
The British and Americans, not wanting anybody else to make money, again plotted to overthrow the next diplomatically elected government in the 50's, and imposed a trade embargo on Iranian oil. Nice of us again hey? Well thats the start of the poor Iranian-US relations, you can thank your president Eisenhower for being the first ever to overthrow a civilised and democractically elected government.
The new governer of Iran, with American support, ensured that he held a dictatorship by using intelligence agencies to crush any opposition threat (the first dictatorship in Iran since the rule of the monarchy, IN 1925).
The Islamic Revolution in 1979, or beginning in 1979 at least, was a series of demonstrations against the American supported Dictatorship. The British and Americans toppled a democratically elected government, replaced them with a dictator, and the inevitable result was protest. Iranians subsequently VOTED in a referendum, after the Shah had fled the country, and it was DECIDED by Iranians to make the country an Islamic republic.
Ever since the Americans and the British have wanted to overthrow this new government structure. Again, yet again, the Americans and British cause the problem.
Is it any wonder that they hate us? I am not the slightest bit suprised. Iran has always been an Islamic country, but are you really suprised that this peaceful country adopted fundamentalism? I am not.
I guess that this is all "before your time". I know Iranian people, I like those Iranian people. I can see a lot of British and American blame. All they had to do is allow the Iranians to nationalise their oil businesses, instead they plotted and schemed. No wonder there is no trust, there never will be now.
You wrote all of that to defend your statement?
Flightkeeper was talking about the revolution of 1979.
You knew what she meant and just wanted to be who you are.
As for your post, too long didn't read...
I wasn't replying to Flightkeeper, I was replying to you.
No you weren't.
Unfortunately Habee, Islamists have taken over in Iran and a lot of other places. I don't think things will change unless the Islamist are thoroughly defeated.
Iran has been an Islamic country since 651AD, so I am not sure how you have to the conclusion that "Islamists have taken over in Iran", unless you are 1359 years behind in your news. I mean, who would have thought that the 'Islamic Republic of Iran' would have house muslims? What is the world coming to?
Don't worry though, that is only 841 before Columbus discovered America hmm
You might learn something if you did read it.
I know all of the reasons that middle-east countries hate America.
Your post wont teach me anything.
This is 2010 and we cannot change history.
Trying to understand terrorists will get us nowhere.
Americans will not sit down and give in to the enemy.
Its who we are.
I find it somewhat amusing that you have turned a discussion about Iran into a discussion about terrorism.
Seeing as Al Quada, your supposed enemy, has pretty much no links with the Islamic Republic of Iran.
None of the 9/11 bombers were from Iran, in fact most were from Saudi Arabia.
Now, why don't you try and explain the link between Iran and terrorism? You can't, because their isn't one.
The reason that America, and probably Britain, wants a war with Iran is rather simple. It overthrew the government in the 1950s in order to profit from their nationalised oil supplies.
In 1979 these oil supplies were nationalised again, with the approval of the Iranian people. In 2010, Britain and America still does not approve of nationalisation.
Now, please explain to me how and why Iran are the 'enemy'. They are not our enemy, we are their enemy.
If you want to support the death of Americans for profit, then go ahead and support the death of Americans for profit. But I cannot support the death of British troops for profit, and I never will.
I will support British deaths for British freedom, British liberties, British civil rights, and even justice. But not for profit.
"Now, why don't you try and explain the link between Iran and terrorism? You can't, because their isn't one."
Well, let me see.
Iranian fundamentalist held 52 American citizens hostage for 444 days in the American embassy in Tehran.
I would call that a terrorist act.
I do not advocate a war with Iran, and I wasn't trying to link Iran with Terrorism.
But if you believe that Iran didn't send a few terrorists to Iraq then you are a little naive.
If you believe there are no factions of Al Quada in Iran then you are worse than a little naive.
Brilliantly written, straightforward and to the point. Jim Hunter, I like your style.
Will you support a war on Saudi Arabia then Jim Hunter?
I mean, that seems to be the real hotbed of terrorism doesn't it?
According to your own intelligience agencies at least. In fact, another supposed 'enemy' of the United States, Hamas, recieves 70% of its financing from the Saudi regime.
In fact their support of the madrassa system in the 1980s gave birth to the Taliban.
It is all too convenient though isn't it Jim? That the Saudi's open up their oil supplies and thus are not an enemy of the US.
I actually pity you a little, a gullible pawn in a giant game of chess. The pawns are always the less damaging to lose, thats why they send the pawns to fight of course.
Same with the British. Time to open your eyes though Jim, your own government has acknowledged that Al Quada is almost entirely financed by Saudi Arabia.
I suppose that you know all this already Jim, but just enjoy a good war.
"Will you support a war on Saudi Arabia then Jim Hunter?"
Earlier you said you would be ok with speaking German and in the same post complained how saying it was a little disrespectful to the many hundreds of thousands of British who died before America got involved.
I think I understand who I am talking to after reading that post.
America didn't get involved in that war sooner because of politics and people like you who didn't want to go to war to stop a tyrant.
When we did get involved then all of the politics went out the window and we got down to basics. Killing the enemy in anyway we could ruled the day.
You want freedom but you are not willing to fight for it.
Neville Chamberlain is that you?
Iran pose no risk to your freedom.
Now answer my question, would you support a war against Saudi Arabia?
Bush stated that your enemy is Al Qaeda, Obama states that the enemy is Al Qaeda, Blair stated that the enemy is Al Qaeda, Cameron states that the enemy is Al Qaeda.
Jim, who is your enemy?
I'm thinking its people like you who want to understand the enemy.
But, to answer your question terrorists who attack the US or any of its allies are my enemy.
Yes that includes Britain.
Yes I would support a war with Saudi Arabia and I would support claiming their oil fields as spoils of war.
Any other questions?
Anything can happen here in Florida. We are all cuckoo in the head!
Surely these moderate Islamics will see the light, and not react violently.
What happen to the approaches of Gandhi and Martin Luther King? The peaceful Salt protest, did more for India than years of war could have, and not 1 person was shot or killed. Martin Luther King's march on Washington, and boycott of buses has done more for civil rights than his murder did, or the antics of the black panthers ever did.
Why can't people see that stuff? It's right there in our World & American history books. All they have to do to find a solution to this mess- is to read.
I just heard that he will move it and Jones has cancelled the burning as a sign. now Jones will meet with Iman Rauf on 9-ll.
I hope that's true but what about the violence that will erupt because it's being moved?
flight, I can't answer that. It's on cnn now. his message to Jones was that there would be talk to move the mosque if he would cancel the burning.
who really knows.. it's a crazy world.
Rauf is threatening. Trying to blackmail. "Let me do what I want, or there will be violence and killing."
or, if you just use a different phrase instead of "blackmail", you might notice that he could be a freedom fighter.
Instead of "let me do what I want, or there will be violence and killing." his statement could easily be translated as "You are violating my rights, and if you do so, the people should rebel against the tyrannical government in question".
... So i guess the real question is "do you hate Muslims, or do you love freedom"?
Rauf is not for freedom. There is no possibility anyone informed on the topic or the person would make that mistake.
I dunno, all i hear are people demanding that he not be allowed via government to build a building that is known as a mosque.
That sounds like tyranny to me.
Why don't you tell us what you are "informed of on the topic." From everything I've read the Imam is about as moderate as a Quaker.
And you are "for freedom?" All he's asking is to be free to exercise his freedom under the Constitution and the laws and rules of New York the same as anyone else. You are the one who's advocating that his freedom be restricted.
I think there's going to be a reaction whether it's built there or not. It's doomed to stir up controversy. The whole problem with it is that it's an ethical issue; legally okay to do it, but insensitive (both the building of the mosque and the burning of the Quaran).
I was disappointed that a minister of the gospel would go so far as to make public the fact he was going to "burn the Quaran". It just didn't set well with me. In fact, it's not the example that should be set. It's exactly what the radical Islamists would do!
Then, the fact that he's willing to go & "sit down & talk" with the guy who's planning building the mosque. I don't think that's appropriate either. It's just asking for another battle.
Is building the mosque at Ground Zero okay? That's a question each individual should ask themselves. It's just going to stir up another hornets nest.
Warring spirits thrive on controversy.
"Imam warns...." This itself is a proof that muslims are all terrorists.
The US govt. should not waste even a day to arrest the Imam on the grounds of "endangering public peace". The mosque should immediately be removed. In this pretext, all christian religious people can interven and give a fitting reply to the Imam and his people.
Imam didnt say that there would be violence in usa...he said there is possibility of violence all across the place..i saw the interview of imam myself...though i dont support his quest of building whatever center he plans near ground zero...
Whatever he would have said.... it bears some meaning. If it was another person, no one will care. But the Imam, who is part and parcel of the criminal actors should not have said it.
Did they think that there will be a lot of repercussion for the destruction of the towers, before they acted in 2001?
when you say they?..what do you mean ?..alqueda and this imam are not same...and when you categorize someone in they ,you are taking about more than billion people in the world...so first define they....
"They " means the terrorists, supporters and sympathisers...
Because they are one billion, are they at liberty to terrorise the world?
What about the remaining 5+ billions?
Alqaeda was instrumental in destroying the twin towers and this Imam heads a mosque in the destruction site. Is it not enough?
well blaming one billion for terrorism is absolutely wrong thing to do Mr venu...it is like blaming all christians for crusadors or witch hunting or galileo...entire community can't be blame for work of some...that is not fair thing to do...
coming to Imam ..what he is doing is not against laws of united states of america....it is perfectly legal and so is burning of quran...but that wont solve any of world's problem...neither building islamic center would nor burning of quran would...
I agree. I am not blaming the entire community. But the culprits should not escape, in the name of one billion. They should be punished for their carnage.
In colonial India, 200 years before, a local King was hanged in public because he refused to abide by the British laws. He was hanged in the presence of thousands of the King's people. Just because thousands were present, the official pronouncing the death sentence did not alter his judgement.. That should be the rule of law in all cases.
The Imam never agreed to anything nor did he ever talk to Mr. Jones.
Another Muslim man said he would talk to the Imam about moving the Mosque but there never was a guarantee or a deal or any of the above.
So, why did Pastor Jones lie? He told an outright lie, he got called on it and then he changed again from not doing it and being totally against it to wanting to do it again.
The peaceful Muslims try more then they need to but it doesn't matter. The only acceptable answer that the crazy christians will accept is that they don't build it even though they own the space.
I cannot stand that you people really believe you are Americans or that you actually represent what Religious freedoms mean. This is NOT a Christian Nation. It never was a Christian nation and it will never be a Christian Nation.
It will never be a Muslim Nation or a Buddhist Nation or an Atheist Nation or any of the above okay. It doesn't belong to any group but the Americans who do actually understand what it means to be an American.
America does not stand for all the things you crazy people are doing these days and I absolutely find their actions deplorable, and idiotic.
Just knock it off!
Well we need to shed religious identity to unbiasedly view the issue..i agree united states of america is not saudi arabia that is would ban other religious places....the greatness of usa lies in its ability to give the best freedom of all forms that world has ever seen. usa is paramount of human thought and it must remain that...
Just a FYI for anyone who is open minded enough to suspect that the media, alongside the right wing politicians and fundamentalist Christians, are responsible for creating this frenzy of hatred;
The community centre is 2 blocks away from ground zero. It's not a mosque - it's an inter-faith centre for the whole community, being funded in part, by an organisation that promotes relations between faiths.
Why do the groups mentioned above keep saying that a mosque is being built on ground zero when it's not true? It's a question that those who belong to those groups should ask themselves.
I find the hate I've seen coming out of people on this subject absolutely disgusting.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-s … -terrorism
Is there any meaning to run an inter-faith centre for whole community, after committing a heinous crime, which killed around 3000 persons and broke the prestige of America? Only to find some refuge from the heat of the crime, they run such centres giving several names, just to look as if it was peace-loving.
Disgusting...? Yes, disgusting to see that the main perpetrators remain elusive ever after 9 years. May be, if and when the perpetrators are caught and punished, the heat may die down in due course.
You need to seperate out the issues and stop lumping them all together because all you get if you do that is a distateful bowl of nonsense mish mash.
The responsibility of 9/11 lays at the feet of small group of people, not the whole muslim community.
Most of the leaders of al qaeda have been killed and of course the direct perpetrators died in the event. How much retribution is needed to satisfy the American people?
Hate on this scale is disgusting wherever it comes from. Fighting hate with hate only creates more of the same.
Your opinion needs congratulations. I am sorry to say that such a person is not available at that end to discourage terrorists.
A small group did it in 9/11. .. because terrorists always operate in small numbers only. The whole community cant do it... because it would have been treated otherwise.
Do you think alqaeda has been reduced? No. In todays' newspapers, (10-9-2010/ Times of India), Mulla Omar has said that they are close to victory. You cant fight hate with affection and they dont expect that from others.
Exactly! So because a very small portion (al qaeda) of a subsect (sunni muslims) of a group (Islam) did it, you think the group as a whole, including all of it's branches, should be persecuted indefinitely despite the fact that 99.99 % of the group condemn the actions of al qaeda? Maybe the US should just nuke the whole lot of them then?
I don't know about the number of al qaeda left - I know that plenty of them have been killed. http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ … losses.htm
Mulla Omar is the leader of the Taliban, not al qaeda. They are very similar in their beliefs but not the same group. The Taliban (initially encouraged and funded by the US in the 90's - hows that for a turn around!) are localised in one part of afghanistan/pakistan. Al qaeda are a global network of terrorists that have been greatly reduced.
It's not about fighting hate with affection it's about fighting a bit smarter and having the correct information to begin with. All of this frenzy about the community centre which is not on ground zero could have been avoided if people spent a little time thinking and less time blindly reacting.
Mulla Omar is the brother in law of Bin Laden. Do you think they are separate?... Different tracks... same goal.
The US bombed enough in Afganistan and they cant catch the culprits.
For a terrorist group, its fighters are not recruited formally like in Government. They can serve in any similar terrorist group, when need arises. So, al qaeda cannot be termed "reduced".
I am personally not against the muslim community, because I have several muslim friends in my area and all of us treat one another as brothers. But the Americans do not feel the magnitude of the loss of prestige for them. They are just arguing whether it is right or wrong and who did it.... They are not aware of the inherent danger they face from terrorist groups. If America is lost, the whole world will lose freedom and fall into the hands of religious terrorists. That is why I am interested in these matters. Whatever we argue, everything will see its logical end.
The haters have their factions on both sides. There are Islamic haters who wold do harm to anyone not of their 'tribe'. On the other side there are Christian haters who want to lump ALL Islam in the same bag for persecution.
The Christain haters use the most radical Islamic fundamentalists to recruit hate (and sometimes money or votes) and the Islamic radicals in their media use the Christain haters to recruit money and suicide bombers.
There's the makings of a religous war, which moderates of both sides could be sucked into. Imam Rouf is a moderate, wothy of support. Opposing him adds fuel to the fire for the Moslem haters. But hate is not known for cunning. The Christian haters are seting new records in sheer stupidity.
Yes, of course there are haters on both sides who will manipluate what they can to make their cause seem worthy and justified. I was commenting on the hate of one side that I'm seeing coming from those who want to, as you said, "lump all islam in the same bag" and who are obviously lacking in brain matter. Stupid doesn't even come close in my mind. Imbecilic?
I am not sure why this mosque is sought to be built with all the feelings it has generated? It may be harmless and perfectly within their rights to do, but is it worth polarizing two communities and creating further divides?
Whatever the facts, what matters is what most people think of this issue - as it appears to them!! I don't think many folks out there are looking at the nitty-gritties of the funding for this mosque or where it is situated - whether 2 blocks away or whatever.
What they perceive is that this mosque is being built at the site/or close to the 9/11 site. Obviously, this is what is causing the consternation and hatred. So, with all of this around - is it worth going ahead for the people who want to build this, ostensibly to foster inter-faith relations? How would this help with that?? To me - it isn't a sensible thing to do; very insensitive!!
No matter how many times we say that, no one is going to listen.
It's not a mosque any more than a Christian community center is a church. My community has a few "Christian Community Centers" that stand completely separate from their respective churches (in fact one of them doesn't even belong to a specific church, it's just open to anyone who wants to come learn about Christianity).
Also, it's not "at Ground Zero".
If you're two blocks away from your house, are you at home? If you're two blocks away from your Grocery Store, are you at the Grocery Store?
It's not a Mosque?
Are you people for real? It most certainly IS a mosque and that's how everyone refers to it! Okay, it's a community center too, but it most certainly IS a Mosque.
Now these "warnings" or veiled threats or however you want to refer to the comments by Rauf on what will happen to us if he doesn't follow through with his plans just goes to prove the point that this mosque is a monument to victory, a place where radical Islamists will rally, just like the Mosque in Hamburg.
Further evidence is the offer by Trump to buy the building netting investors a 25% profit in one year, quite generous in the current environment with commercial real estate, and Rauf's refusal to accept it.
Then there is Imam Rauf's book,originally published in 2004 in Malaysia, under the title: "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11."
Evidence to the Imam's desire to bring Sharia Law to the USA at that very sensitive location.
All this taken together with the Imam's stubborn refusal to move the Mosque to another location clearly shows he has no interest in building any bridge with the west and lacks any concern what so ever for the sensibilities of the victims families of that horrific terrorist act that killed nearly 3000 innocent Americans perpetrated by radical Muslims.
sharia law in usa...you are kidding right?...
No I'm not. It's happened in Britian already and there was a recent ruling by a judge that allowed a man to rape his wife because it was allowed under Sharia law. That was later overturned, but this is just the beginning.
Has he refused to sell it?
As of last night, I read that he was mulling over Trumps offer, and many larger offers still.
All I could think of was "Wow, imagine all the spreading of Islam you could do with all that money. Take it and build somewhere else! It'll benefit you even more!"
Are you for real? You refer to the building that way because that's the information you were given, probably from the media. Did it ever occur to you to find out the facts instead of indulging in a hate frenzy?
but but but but but but but but but
The media would NEVER lie to us!!!
I don't hate but I'm not naive either. It's the Imam that hates for the reasons I've already laid out. Of course you will discount them by referring to me as a hater or a bigot or a racist because you can't counter the facts. The wife of the Imam herself describes it as a "cultural center with a prayer space". The very definition of Mosque is a place of worship for followers of Islam. Arabs might distinguish between smaller places for daily prayer (masjids) and larger buildings for Friday prayers as well as daily prayers (masajid) both are Mosques no matter how you want to spin it.
To be a Mosque it has to be dedicated to worship.
A Christian school is not a church just because they pray in it.
All the Christian schools around my town HAVE a church adjacent to them. But they are schools.
I understand this building is not an Islamic school, but it's the same principle. Just because you pray somewhere doesn't make it your church/mosque/temple/etc.
For that matter, I believe something is what the creator/owner calls it.
I can build a House and call it an Office if I so choose. In fact, I once rented a house and used it as an office. Is it a house or an office? The previous occupant called it a house. I referred to it as my office. I prayed in it, so it must be a Church, right?
Maybe it is a Mosque, I don't know. I don't really care anymore. I think the whole situation is stupid now.
You can call it an office if you want but don't try to deduct it as such on your income tax if you and your family are living in it and not using it exclusively for business or the IRS might prosecute you for calling it an office!
Look, people can spin it anyway they want. You can manipulate the facts to support your argument, this guy turning down Trump's deal seals it for me. If there was any doubt what so ever prior to that, well it's all gone now.
We as Americans need to decide, is radical Islam our enemy or not? If not, then lets bring our people home and let the conversions begin.
I asked above for a link to where Imam Rauf turns down Trumps deal and still haven't been provided one.
Do you think you could be the one to provide me with this enlightenment?
I'm having trouble finding it for my self.
Don't you google?
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10857490 … en=GOOGLEN
According to the article you sent me:
"The real estate billionaire (Trump) offered to buy out investor Hisham Elzanaty's stake in the development property..."
A quick Google search on Hisham Elzanaty came up with info that he is nothing but an invester in Park51, the non-profit trying to build the Mosque.
Imam Rauf did not turn down Trump, nor could he if he wanted to, because it is not his stake that Trump was trying to buy.
Further on in the article it says that Elzanaty is okay with selling it, he's just trying to get more out of Trump.
Well, I saw the interveiw, and that is not exactly what was meant by the statement. What was meant was this: That adversely impeding the mosque will make the TERRORISTS say "HMMMM. Looks like we are WINNING" that, in turn will provide a recruitment tool for them to convince others to become TERRORISTS! If we ALLOW the mosque, we remove that impetus. This was quite clear to me, as I'm sure, it is quite clear to others. Those who wish to misinterpret the statement only play into the hands of those who would do us harm. If we allow America to proceed down the road to intolerance once again (We've been there before!) Then the TERRORISTS score points! Get it?
Totally understand, but there are many here who will remain blinded by their preconceived notions.
Because the feelings the mosque has generated is the purpose of it. This is not a community center, islamic center, or anything of that nature. This is a flash point. This is creating a situation. The building was bought using a completely uncharged name. The Burlington Coat factory had no idea it was selling to a terrorist front group.
A few years were let pass, then this crap about 'Islamic Centre'.
More than one group, including Donald Trump has sought to buy the property for 25% above the cost. They aren't selling.
The purpose of the so-called Centre.
Maybe after we win the war on radical Islam then Americans can accept the construction of a MOsque at ground zero, but as long as they are our enemy, I don't believe we should encourage them. If that makes them angry, well too bad! They should have thought about that before they flew planes into our buildings!
I'm of the opinion it's not a good idea at this time. The one question I have as i'm sure many have.. is how do we determine what part of the bombed out area is considered ground zero?
I ask that cause ground zero is the grave of many people and should be held with respect.
Here is an example of how the muslims behave....
In medieval India, in 1526, a nomadic man called Babar came to India and captured Delhi. Immediately on becoming the emperor, he moved eastwards and conquered small kingdoms. When he came to Ayodhya, the birthplace of God Ram, (the main God of Hinduism), he destroyed the Ram temple and built a mosque in its place. (That dispute remains even today, and several other mosques remain even today, facing destruction.)
That mosque remained till 1992 and was destroyed by Hindu mobs, taking revenge for the desecretion of God's birthplace. That has stirred a hornet's nest.
The muslims are not concerned about Babar or his conquest of India. They are hell-bent on destroying the free society of India by their terror acts. Babar's grave lies in Rawalpindi in Pakistan and no one takes note of it. But the mosque built by him after antagonising the entire Hindu population is so sacred for the muslims. I expect the "advanced Americans" will not allow such a dispute to crop up around the mosque.
Babar destroyed the Ram temple in India and built a mosque.
Al qaeda destroyed the twin towers and built a mosque, giving it different names. I expect the Americans to understand the inherent dangers of allowing that mosque at G-0. Mr.Obama has clearly indicated his inclination to Islam... so the people must act.
Only the fear of backlash will deter those terrorists do desist from their actions.
After the hanging of Saddam Hussein, Iraqi terrorists captured 17 Indians and held them captive for reasons not connected with India. All the hostages belonged to a village in Northern India. When the deadline for their demands approached, the villages in India prepared for revenge against the local muslims. When the news reached Iraq, all the captives were released, and sent back to India with a Quran book in their hands.
Like this, if a fear psychosis crops up, everyone will set themselves right.
But then again, if this Goddess of American Warfare was really in charge of America's soldiers- London would be speaking German right now instead of English. Seeing how it would taken me a lot longer to get to England's aid, after Pearl Harbor. I would have focused all my energy on Japan, and then worked YOU in on my spare time.
You all took your time though didn't you.
America didn't win that war, every single dead Allied soldier won that war.
That is 25,496,000 by the way. Neither me nor you could ever claim to have won that war.
Americans owe just as much to dead Soviets, as Soviets do to dead Frenchman, as British do to dead Americans, as Australians do to dead British.
RIP to every person who lost their life in those wars, Germans included.
Who would have been next? If Europe had been conquered? It would not have stopped. Every military man who fought against Nazi Germany and their allies is a hero, and every one played their part. No Hollywood film is going to change that.
Who said we did?
I didn't write that.
By the way, again I'm not America. I'm Julie.
Do I like the English, and their Socialism. No. No more than you apparently like Americans, and our democracy.
Big deal right, however Ryan, lets not confuse the fact that since I'm an American, doesn't make me America.
I don't like war. I'm dead set against it. I'm an Isolationist. If I could have my way, England would have been burnt to the ground, every stalk and every English rose melted away. I also think Roosevelt was a fool to come to England's aid, it cost us Americans more money, more men, and more time. We did save your butts over there, and there is no denying history.
By the way, I'm also Irish Catholic, from Cork Ireland. So does that make me Ireland or America by your analogy?
Again, it's not MY war.
You effectively did.
You suggested that with no American involvement the British would now be speaking German.
Whilst that may be true, that is somewhat disrespectful to the 449,800 British people who spent almost 4 years fighting before you helped us out.
Personally, I couldn't care less if we did all speak German. But the hairy armpits thing, I wouldn't tolerate that
Funny thing is I don't care. You mistake me as being the whole of America, and now you mistake me for someone who gives a poop-poop about 450,000 old Englishmen. Seriously, I don't care. To me the history states the obvious and whether it is disrespectful or not, its the cold hard fact. It took England how many years to defeat the Germans? Oh that's right- they didn't. Fact is fact, the Americans were in and out in four years. Fact is fact.
As I see it, the situation in Iraq stemmed from it's British rule and puppet king place by the English, in the early twentieth century. Same with Iran, same with India, China, Pakistan........., come to think of it- it has been British tyrannical rule over these said countries, during much of the earlier twentieth century, which has set the foundation of dishevel in motion in the first place. Maybe if England wouldn't have been so tyrannical, maybe the Middle East wouldn't be in so much trouble now.
Tyrannical England is to blame for much of the mess we all are finding ourselves in today. Puppet kings, mass funding for murderess Sheiks, and Apartheid all across China, India, Africa and even Ireland- "your war," you say, I hardly think so.
And, what do you know- here we Americans are again, trying to fix England's messes.
Oh the English........, what to do with them, what will we ever do? Screw'em I say. I'm sick of my country picking up their dead weight.
We never ruled in Iran, get your facts correct. It was not the 'English' empire by the way, it was the 'British' empire. They are two entirely different things.
You funded a murderous sheik. I never said you ruled Iran.
Get YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT Ryan.
The English......., typical.
Who needs them? Especially, when all they do is make you want to pull your hair out! This right here, is why us Americans, don't really like the English. And again- I'm okay with that. Disrespectful or not. "Screw'em" as Sir Anthony Hopkins says in The Legends of the Fall.
Are there any other nations that you are particularly fond of? Or do you want to screw them all?
No, just England. More like the principalities of England, and England's moral compass as a nation.
I'm sure I would like you of course.
I think the English track record for what they did to countries like China, India, South Africa, etc.... speaks for all my reasons behind not caring for England.
America did a lot a bad things way back when, but, by the time the 1900's rolled around- England new better than to be so vicious, and yet they did it anyways. Terrorizing mass groups of people, just because they needed the life saving mineral of salt. Who does that? That is a level of cruelty, I don't want to be around. England- makes me sick to my stomach. Not only did they know better, England is a lot older than America is. But still..........., just look at "your" history. I'll take America's over "yours" any day of the week. Look what the English did to Nelson Mandela? Look at what they did to the people of India? All this- and we are just speaking of a few decades ago. Not a hundred years ago.
The English invented the word and act of Terrorism.
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