The wealthiest 300 people in the world have more money than the total income of the poorest 3 billion in the world.
Three hundred people have more money than three billion!!
Does this mean capitalism is fair and works as a wealth creation mechanism or is it a cruel deception?
My view is the above stat is that caitlaism is inhumane and a damming indictment of how divided and unfair this world is.
I don't think captitalism could be called fair - for the most part it's exploitative. You just have to look at how many thousands of people work for next to nothing for a company like Nestle, including the coffee growers, pickers, packers etc. while the board of directors and shareholders earn fortunes.
I would like to see more large companies operating in the way that John Lewis does.
Capitalism isn't exploitative but large corporations are for sure.
of course capitalism is exploitative that's the nature of of the concept. There's no emotion attached to capitalism when it comes to making money. Those that make the most money of a capitalist venture are the ones that realise how much control they can have too. And when you control people you control pretty much everything.
Fel free to correct thousands of years of 'tradition'.
Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the market rather than by central planning by the government; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses....wikipedia
It's the part about central planning by the gov't that has me puzzled. OK the Fed system of central banks is not a govt' branch but it is responsible to hold the free market stable by buying and selling bonds and such in the SOMA portfolio in order to maintain the amount of money in the smaller banking system and in America.
Printing money out of nothing messes up the whole concept of free and open market competition.
So capitalism as cpc states is not exploitive so much as corporate forces are....i don't know that she means it in the same way i do.
Capitalist venture is certainly fair but to the spirit of the game is supposed to be played with real equity and money and not with an infinite supply of monopoly money.
Life isn't fair, and it wasn't meant to be. Do you have what you need to live? Did you earn it? Then be thankful and stop grousing over those that are better off then you. It's not the fault of capitalism.
Oh my gosh I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank You.
I swear these people whining over capitalism sound like a couple of kids arguing over who was served a bigger portion of ice cream! LOL Grow up and do something with your life that makes you happy and don't worry about what the next guy has!
the 300 you speak of are established families from early 1900's, they took the risks back then and started the major corporations, now their air's benefit. so you can not judge capitalism by that. history then, action and work today.
it is very fair, you work for what you get, the world does not owe you a living, you owe that to yourself.
The problem you refer to is that most need assistance to get a good start in business. it is the cost of money and credit that’s not a fair system, and it needs consideration and change,
There is nothing wrong with capitalism, except in the minds of a lot of radical professors that never worked a hard day in their lives.
We are free to pursue it in the US that’s the good part, but yes, it is not easy or a handout. so what...get over it, grow up and go to work. Life’s tough for everyone.
If you have passion about something, and ideas. Then pursue it with Zen. No one has to or will give it to you, and they should not. Your life success is your own responsibility.
as for greed, colusion, gluttony, hording of money, those are moral and illegal activities that need to be delt with, but thats people goinf to far, not the system being bad. there are limits of you have principles.
I note your avatar dog has glasses, you should borrow them sometime and try to see the bigger picture.
Capitalsim would be fair if you got what you worked for - but 'en-masse' you are kept in a permanent state of not quite enough, and so working long hours for no real reason. Some people rise higher in the mass than others and think everything is ok, the rest might not agree with you - just because some dog of your master has dropped you a small bone does not cure the ills for all those others.
To sit in your comfy chair viewing the world at the end of your nose is ok, but peer over the top once in a while at the billions living in abject poverty to keep your rich very rich and you there in some small comfort with your bone.
You are absolutely right, the only thing that you are guarenteed is life, liberty and the Pursuit of happiness. Nothing is owed to you though.
The world and life have never been fair. And that is a universal truth. I just make the best of what I have instead of grumbling about what others have. Life has never been fair and it has been that way since the beginning of time. I have a roof over my head and food in the fridge and people I love and who love me. That's enough for me.
Anything wrong with trying to make it a little fairer? At least to the point of trying to make sure banksters and credit card bandits from ripping us off. And stopping Dow Chemical from dumping harmful chemicals into the Great Lakes, and so forth.
when was the last time you created a multi-national billion dollar company that sells countless highly-demanded-by-consumers items?
Sounds like it's fair to me.
So in your opinion it is more fair for me to work hard and give half or all of my wealth to you? Socialism is more fair? Because those who are determined to work hard will have to carry those who do not want to do anything? No thanks I will take Capitilism any day over Socialism because I don't want to carry the load of people who are too lazy to work for themselves.
There are many variations of reasons of why wealth disparation exist. On the plus side: people who grew up in a healthy environment to invigurate their mental and social process are likely to make the most of life. On the other extreem where people grow up in a limited enviroment must concentrate more energy on survival however, the few who are blessed with a decent family who encouraged learning have a better chance to live a fruitful life.
On the negative side: people who grew up where sustaining life is not a problem, but living in an abusive or negative environment often leads a life of greed and vengeance. On the other hand people who grew up in an impovished and dangerous environment grow up fighting to survive with little or no support.
I for one feel fortunate to have grown up in a capitalistic society. I am far from being rich, but I worked hard my entire life and now live very comfortably.
I invested wisely, and saved money when I could so that I could enjoy my so called golden years.
My question would be if capitalism were declared illegal today, what system would you suggest we replace it with? This is not a put down for anyone's belief, as I am really curious on what other people feel would be a better system than capitalism.
Question for Joe Badtoe...
How would you describe the political stand of the 300 people you mention ?
In other words what philosophy drives them ?
Question: If someone else sacrificed more than I did, took risks that I wasn't willing, and worked twice as hard as I did, how is it fair to them if the government takes what they have built and gives it to me?
Sounds like they are the ones getting robbed to me.
Of course, it's not normal for a few to have more than they need, while the majority is hungry to death. But, that's an old story - it's old as mankind. That very example is the product of human greatest sin : to be what man is not, to be the ruler of the world by playing God. But, nothing lasts forever...
Well apart from my mispelling in my OT
I appear to have stood on a hornet's nest too!!!
Your stats would seem to indicate that the poorest 3 billion people are not capitalists and should be if they want income ratios to be "fair". (I assume that your 300 richest are capitalists). That capitalism is far more successful than what they operate under does not seem to make it "unfair" - just better!
There is also a considerable problem with the word "fair". What is "fair"? That all people make the same income? Or that people are paid according to their accomplishments in the world of money making? What is your definition in relation to the OP?
Does fairness come into such an alarming stat?
I magine what those people trapped into poverty would like (as opposed to want) and what poor people get isn't always down to individual choice.
You are saying that the 3 billion poorest might want to be capitalist but that is not a choice they are likely to get. My deinfition is that there has to be something wrong with how`capitalism functions if there can be such an extraordinary discrepancy between rich and poor.
Of course it's unfair it's unfair that a handful of rich tycoons and corrupt government officials who normally operate in wealthy industrialised nations can exploit ther own people and poorer countries in the pursuit of adding to their exclusive wealth whilst leaving the poor in their wake.
It's unfair that someone working in a stock exchange can get million dollar bonuses for making even more millions for banks. Somebody somehwere has to bear the downside of such speculative ventures and it's usually the poorest who suffer the most.
The world of money making isn't a real world is it? Western stock markets lose trillions of dollars of invisible money forcing millions of real lives into poverty.
If making money was failsafe we might see a fairer wealth distribution or create more opportunities to help ease people out of poverty. But making money for money's sake is a gamble and only the top gamblers escape the losing bets.
If any capitalist can look at those stats and not be disturbed by this appalling fact, then clearly big business and its high society has left compassion rotting in the gutter.
Fair = leave no one behind. no complicated financial market orientated bullshit just don't leave anyone behind.
One last thing I'll bet the three hundred richest had far more to do with the global credit crisis than the three billion poorest did.
Greed is an illness. These people have far more than they could ever need, but it is never enough. In fact, you could go much farther down the list before leaving mental illness behind.
Capitalism is a positive force, but can be taken too far.
I always thought, short and simple...If you worked hard...you got ahead. Some people are honest along the path of success, some are not. But you do have "Capitalism" from all walks of life. Not everyone accepts poverty as a way of life. Some of the best success stories come from that type of sad living conditions. The attitude has to be....I can make something of myself and I will. It doesn't have to mean being rich or a Capitalist...You can be happy without hating the rich...it takes up too much energy!
imo - the 300 richest have an advantage that the 3 billion only aspire to and that advantage is called union.
The idealist wantabee capitalist knows certain union as sovereign groups joined together - ie. United States, European Union....
These are democratic societies where the commoners work for their money. They hire leaders to represent them in houses where rules are passed on all types of issues but mostly on issues of fiscal responsibility and human rights.
The house of representatives is infested by special interest groups from the houses of the elites and the story of capitalism plays out from that point.
It is much easier for 300 to unite behind a concept of what is and what should be than it is for 3 billion.
What is capitalism ? It's the idea of running an economic driven world on open markets where the value of financial assets arrived at in auctions that we call stock markets or interbank markets, or commodity and futures markets...etc...Those auctions are supposed to be transparent and are meant to arrive at a fair price valued on demand and supply. It takes money to play on the capitalists markets.
What is money ? It is fiat and can be created out of nothing.
What are the central banks doing ? They are driving the open markets with newly printed money that they take from nowhere.
What is the job of central banks ?
It's to supply money to the interbank system and to stabilize economies and to run portfolio full of bonds and other financial assets. In other words they are buying assets with wooden nickels for the 3 billion who are in the end the government ( represented by elected leaders ).
Where do central banks make their money ?
Usually by charging interest on the money that they print and lend to the public.....
The basic tenents of capitalism are sound. Capitalism is a system where transparent open markets provide equal opportunity for all.
Like most other great concepts meant to produce a better, and more harmonious world, capitalism has been corrupted. What we are experiencing is just a pseudo-capitalist concept driven more like a socialist regime.
They justify bailout money by claiming that it will stimulate the markets long enough for industry to provide real capital for the game of capitalism to continue.
The biggest risk of continually throwing wooden nickels into the fire is that so much fiat ends up in the free markets that the world goes into a state of hyperinflation.
What will you do if one day your wife has to come to your office with a wheelbarrow to pick up your mid day pay ?
In such conditions people run to leaders who promise them a way out. Most of th 3 billion are followers looking for leaders. Most if not all of the 300 are leaders.
It depends on what you mean by "fair". Would it be fair if everybody had the same amount of money, no matter what they did? For that matter, would it be functional?
It's been tried many times. Even in an ideal Utopian state, we'd become bored and start hobbies of some sort. Then someone would love what we made or did and want a part of it. Barter would begin and capitalism would start all over again.
One thing that might be being overlooked here is that capitalism is not necessarily only huge corporations. Huge corps make tons of money, yes, but everyone on the small side are also capitalists from the family owned convenience store on the corner to the guy selling bait out of the back of his car.
If you started Nestle corp., as the example, what would you do to make the corporation's income more evenly distributed? Remember, you've got to stay within corporate law, laws which govern corporations.
My friend sent me an email today. She said Bill Gates is giving money away to anyone who uses Windows if you forward the email. It was on Good Morning America Today. A great way for him to ensure a loyal following and to distribute his wealth a little to all of us. I tried to copy and paste the email to share with all of you but the attachment wouldn't copy. Try to find this somewhere, get onto the Good Morning America site.
I am talking about capitalism at its worst here by the way. The kind of excessive greed that turns human beings into robots without any compassion for those less well off.
I imagine most normal human beings want to have an opportunity to live in a world where they don't have to merely exist. Not everyone strives to make as much money as they can. I'm not even sure if someone wanting to earn a basic living wage can be described as performing an act of capitalism. Some people just want to provide for their family and not take over the world.
What clearly isn't right is the enormous disparity between the very rich and the very poor.
when I ask what's fair I mean what is morally fair irrespective of who has how much money.
I've always been baffled by those multimillionaires who own 12 expensive luxury cars, three mansions a boat etc etc. Why?
Can ou magine the lives you could change with such wealth? Wouldn't that be something far more worthy than the self indulgent vanity show?
And I still say that the very rich in this world had far more to do with the global credit collapse than any poor person did.
Yet the very rich are still very rich - how does that work?
nine out of ten people the rich give a dollar to give it right back ????
Maybe, but you're still up $1. because otherwise you would have had to spend your own dollar. Or is it their dollar? No wait it's the dollar I earned but I only got 75cents of it then bought 50cents worth of food and paid 5cents tax leaving me 20cents, so I actually needed him to give me 5dollars so I'd end up with a dollar so I could give it back and pay 10cents tax so now I'm out 10cents. Hmmm.
Unless you meant people give back 9 out of every 10dollars leaving them with 1dollar which puts us right back to being out 10cents. I think.
You could always trivialise the real issue and ignore the true hardship caused by extreme capitalism by arguing a moot point about one dollar.
What it must be like to be as warm as you folk eh?
Geez are people ever touchy on this forum....one dollar times 1 trillion at six percent seems hardly trivial.......
When you say....extreme capitalism, I say....pseudo-capitalism.....tomato...tomato....
Sometimes I wish I were American just to be able to have the right to be more opinionated about US affairs...but what happens in the US doesn't necessarily stay in the US so I dare to speak.............
C'mon, Joe. I just got beat up over in the political forums. Just a shot at a little levity. Humor in all things and all that?
I guess I take the crass divide between the rich and powerful and the destitute a bit too seriously eh? Not averse to humour just don't think this subject is that funny.
I take it you understand why you got beat up in the political forum?
maybe it's the company you keep?
Not sure which company you're referring to but LOL nevertheless! I generally have to go back to the poets corner for a little relief. And yes, maybe I'm in a place where I can breathe a little better these days, but there was a time when I worked 3 jobs and had to decide which road to take to work so I wouldn't have to spend a quarter for the toll booth. I'm definitely part of the endangered middle class so the beat goes on. Just try always to remember that i need to keep going and growing. Have lived in apts. all my life, never owned anything of value, staying above water. Only work one job now - 45 hours a week - went back to college at age 56 on financial aid - otherwise could have never afforded it - see kids there whose parents pay for their education, with expensive clothes and manicures. Just happy to be healthy and have my brain. These are the only resources I need. I've been broke quite a bit but i've never been poor. Poor is when you have no resources to turn to.
While capitalism may not seem fair to some it still is what made America great and strong And the land of opportunity.
Companies must make a profit or you won't have a company anymore and nobody will have work - while I can understand that some workers arn't paid what they should be And the heads of these companies are gettin paid a lot it is still legal.
What is wrong is that workers who are gettin big bucks are not turning those dollars around and making those dollars work for them so that they too can create wealth. I do blame Congress for not realizing this and keeping the minimum wage so low for so long a period of time. At one time it basically kept pace with the average wage.
Capitalism is not wrong it's people who don't want to embrace it and try and build a better life for themselves.
Well dah! Of course it isn't fair, if it was fair it would be difficult to maximise profit at the expense of the workers and then were would we all be? My mother always said she wanted to make enough money so that she could exploit some cleaning lady to do her 'female' work in the home. She wasn't joking, it was exploitation.And the cleaning lady was greatful for the job and would probably have punched any person on the nose who suggested she was exploited. People who say things are unfair are usually the same people who don't get off their backside and make things happen.....
I thought you were serious until I got to the end of your comment.
Your warmth and humanitarian spirit overwhelms me.
I hope you exploit and maximise these commendable assets to let everyone know how you care.
I shall inform the starving and the weak that you have spoken and that they should rise up and get a job with good pay and make a life for themselves because you have proclaimed that is quite easy to do this.
I'm humbled by your gracious presence and can barely write anything else about you. Please see this response for exactly what it is.......
Oh Joe, I was joshing! My sarcasm facility is obviously on the blink. I would defend my self further but it would all seem trite. Of course the vulnerable of the world, (and they just got a lot more vulnerable since the gravy train that is capitalism derailed,) are important and those that are lucky enough to be in a position to help should do just that. My point is that philanthropy is often a by product of outrageous exploitation. Nothing is simple.
The west is enslaved to the very rich as it has always been since the Roman Empire. Back then the slavery was tangible, you were bonded to a master, or 'free' but bonded to your estate, or town or whatever. Then you were enslaved through religion all down the middle ages, now you are enslaved by your media. Grubbing about on the floor of society for the crumbs and dimes that fall from the table you think you see capitalism working as you get enough togeether to buy one tenth of a house and then enslave yourself to the bank for the remainder. With the help of religion and the media they keep you looking up into their blinding light where, like the myth of a god, there is nothing to see - but hiding behind that light are just 300 fat greedy inhumane creatures who are there because of those billions who need a dollar and give their excessive piles of money its value. You, the stupid slave, always wanting an 'extra' dollar gives their obscene pile of money its 'on top' super value and guarantees its increase.
The economic model that enslaves you is designed by them, is operated by them, and the whole system is owned by them. It is an economic system that recycles money - grovelling on the floor for its crumbs you think it works in some mystical way for the benefit of people, there is even a 'dream' where one in a million people get rich, this is just to maintain the illusion for the million who never will. You think it is some kind of pile of money that can be printed and held in your hand, this is your illusion. Money is flowing like water through a pipe and you can draw just enough to keep you alive and earning more; global corporations are just the equivalent of the slave shop that rich owners set up when black slavery was officially abolished but not implemented - you get just enough to buy goods at the store that keep you alive and working.
Do tell? So what is the Chinese way, old one? I am very interested to be enlightened. No sarcasm here, just desire to learn.
I am not Chinese - I just live and work in China - and what is with the old !!!!!
I don't have the answers, just the questions. I just know that a 'different' way is needed (and I mean different from anything that has gone before) before the whole world is directly enslaved rather than indirectly, as it is a the moment.
LOL! Sorry! I guess I thought you were a Chinese mystic or something. No, just kidding. A mystic would have a different tone. I just know China is such an old country that you may have had some different insight.
I do have some 'info' what to do with it I am not sure. I watch millions of people making some kind of a living all around me, millions of small shops all in competeition with each other, and with the supermarkets. I do NOT see a million bye-laws preventing people doing what they want, from selling pretty much everything at the roadside to a million small restaurants. I get my double delicious Chinese noodle breakfast every morning for 3 Yuan and the 'elderly poor' who collect plastic bottles for cash get one Yuan for three coke type plastic bottles. I see them with bagfuls for an hour collecting htem from the roadsides and bins - and I calculate they have enough cash in that bag to get three good meals per day in the same places that I eat. If they cook themselves then it costs half that price.
I see a different kind of economy here that has many of the same points of the west, the subtle differences may make it a better model when they are finished making it.
The Yuan is the biggest argument on the interbank and currency markets today and most economists will tell you that it is being used by the Chinese who have it pegged close to the US dollar for the only purpose of manipulating the international trade markets. A cheap Yuan means cheap labor in China and cheaps goods for export. China is currently experiencing a great rise in middle class citizens i think....
I respect what you say about the way North Americans are so quick at maxing themselves into debt in order for instant gratification.
As for the Chinese way of life I keep going back to a story that I read about how a simple commoner took on the Khan Mongols and the Ming dynasty followed in China. But this commoner could not have done it were it not for the fact that in the bottom of their souls the Chinese carried with them the old wisdom thought to them by Confucius and others. On the surface they were vassals to the Khan until someone inspired them. Of course there is more to the story....
Capitalism is not really fair. But we should look into the whole issue. Who prevented these 3 billion people from becoming rich? Why not they work for better lives for themselves and their families? If they reach a fair living standard, they will catch up and become rich. But several people, always idle and sleeping under the trees and doing nothing worth their intake, forms the major part of the poor.
Mr.Chinaman, another Mao-tse-tung is needed to bring cultural revolution and make everyone going for hard labour. In my India, there are homes for the poor, aged, destitutes, and even leprosy-diseased patients. Just after joining the homes, they go begging in the streets. What can the Govt. do? Can every beggar be tracked and punished? People like them forms part of your 3-billion.
So, capitalism shows the attitudes of different kinds of people. But communism puts a lid on the boiling pot, which is destined to explode. Let capitalism thrive... and let everyone become a capitalist... Communism is for eradicating poverty. If the capitalists help help others to become capitalists, there will be no poverty and no communism.
this is all nonsense - it's like the giant communism rally!!
of course capitalism is fair!! Every bad aspect of capitalism has government fingerprints all over it.
Let's think about this:
Bill gates created a multi-national corporation that has made COUNTLESS lives better BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS... and he's a billionaire as a reward.
Rockefeller (where as many of his actions were evil) made oil worthwhile, and thus made cars and the MODERN ECONOMY FEASIBLE... and thus he's made billions (by today's standards).
Countless other people have helped out their fellow man in uncountable ways, and there are too many cases to examine: google, facebook, the companies that made USB ports, the countless people who everyday risk their wealth and livelihood by investing unheard of quantities of money into risky businesses.
Sure, there are "300 people who own more than 3 billion" (which is likely a made up statistic), but they sure as hell deserve it! No offense to "random guy # 5,737,021, but when was the last time he made my life better by finding a niche in the market and investing money to make everyone's life better?
Never? Oh. ok. yeah.
Capitalism is the most fair and non-contradictory system there is. if you work hard, you'll survive. If you take risks and succeed, you get rewarded heavily. If you innovate and continually provide what consumers (e.g., you and me) want, then you get rewarded handsomely.
Communism, Socialism, Mercantilism, Corporatism, and everything OTHER than free-market economics relies on one simple and undebatable fact...
That every dollar spent by government is a dollar stolen at gunpoint from another human being.
So the next time you want to bite the hand that feeds you, think again. Think "did I invent something that rocked the foundation of the world recently?", and if the answer is no, then be happy that someone else DID, and that they want to hire you to help run their business and get the product to those who want/need them.
And most importantly, remember that a good bought through a free-market is one that was never created by stealing money from someone else.
Baloney....you got your capitalism mixed with my pseudo-capitalism....bankers throwing wooden nickels into a fair and open market does not make for a capitalist system.....
you're blinded by the hard reality which is that the only thing printing fiat can do is force markets to behave successfully....that's what psychopathic parents do to their kids....it's an outright lie....free markets are all about real money or assets finding their true valuation...
if you're going to play capitalism, which i believe is the greatest system around when played by the rules, then at least play by those rules....
I dunno what you're talking about, but "wooden nickels" doesn't sound like any sort of capitalist endeavor i've ever heard of....
... but I have heard of PAPER money, which is made out of wood, that has been crammed down our throats by our government. It's completely worthless, but we all smile and accept it.
"Free markets are all about real money or assets finding their true valuation"...
Ok... how does that contradict ANYTHING that i've written?
I said 300 people own more than the combined wealth of 3 billion people you seem to have mistaken this for me saying 300 people have more than 3 billion dollars of individual wealth.
Capitalism is an unworkable system when it reaches the stock market. Money becomes invisible but the effects of huge gambling losses are real to those people not part of the financial elite. Which is why there's such a discrepancy between rich and poor.
For you to bring communism into this simply shows where your starting point is.
"For you to bring communism into this simply shows where your starting point is."
Oh man, YOU GOT ME!!!
... oh wait, no you didn't - the word "capitalism", which YOU chose to use, was coined by KARL MARX, who, If i'm not mistaken, is about as Communist as you can get.
And, to take it even further, the only logical alternative to Free-Market Capitalism is government interference. And every market interference by government is an act of tyranny and socialism.
I don't see how my "3 billion" comment in any meaningful way distorts your original message.
Capitalism isn't unworkable: it's how humanity has operated since it's inception.
How do you associate tyranny and socialism in the same sentence? Socialism is about sharing resources so that the poor and needy are catered for. Tyranny is the opposite.
Tyranny is taking the right to make choices away from individuals and giving it to someone else. Who that someone else is -- whether it is a single dictator or a collective -- doesn't matter.
The end does not justify the means. You can say "we're doing it to help the poor", but if "it" is wrong, then it's wrong -- and it won't work.
The opposite of tyranny is freedom, and that doesn't cater to anyone at the expense of somebody else.
As soon as you can tell me how "taxing money from someone" is at all, in ANY way different than "the state demanding money from you, and if you refuse to pay you will be taken at the point of a gun to jail" are different, then I'll listen to your argument.
But until then, you're asking me to say that slavery is freedom. I will never say that.
You could see yourself this way, or as the good little dog getting your trivial rewards at the feet of your masters - then, when you get sick or too old to feed the cpaitalist 'system' usefully, you can join the 3 billion unfortunates who were prevented even getting into the get the rich richer system in the first place.
If i'm not mistaken, the people who "were prevented even getting into the get the rich richer system" are people who's government has kept markets from operating properly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not heartless (which you seem to be implying of me). we both want people to be better off, but I simply differ to you as to how to accomplish such a goal.
When a company comes into a new country, they start competing with the local shops for labor. If the local shops are charging 30 cents an hour for work, and then Nike comes in with their "evil sweatshops", then they have to compete against the prevailing wage. Usually (and by "usually" i mean "almost always") the wages paid by these "evil sweatshops" is almost 3 times the prevailing wage.
Check out the story of Wendy Diaz, who had her sweatshop shut down because politicians in the US didn't like the idea of her making 3 times the normal wage for her country. She openly admitted that if her sweatshop was shut down, she would likely have to turn to prostitution. She was 14 (? or some other "very young" age).
Capitalism isn't evil - it's just very very fair.
Oh boy that is some planet you are on!
"People who's governments has kept markets from operating properly"? What on earth do you mean by that? Who do you think controls the markets of the poorest countries? Can I suggest you read the book 'confession of an Economic Hit Man' to find the real answer. It was written by a fellow American which just might persuade you to at least read the basics of what's being said.
People do not choose to starve or survive on scraps nor do they choose to live in slums, die young or be ravaged by diseases that were thought to have been eradicated. You are making an impossible comparison with how you live against someone in a poor country that has no support system for its poor and is high on unemployment. Somehow you think these people can magic a job out of thin air.
And it seems by your last response that you're justifying child labour as a fair means of capitalism at its best?
You are just using the concept of capitalism as an excuse to justify your indifference to the suffering of people who are in no position to reap any 'benefits' of capitalism.
And your defence of NIKE is nothing short of moral ignorance.
And you say you're not heartless!??
I did read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man", and EVERY EXAMPLE HE GIVES illustrates GOVERNMENT interference in the market.
Remember the ENTIRE premise of his job? he goes in to negotiate, if that fails then he goes in there to threaten, then if that fails, the CIA tries to assassinate him, and if that fails, the US invades them
Remember that? now i ask you: WHAT PART OF THE CIA ASSASSINATING A LEADER OR A GOVERNMENT INVADING ANOTHER COUNTRY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH FREE-MARKET CAPITALISM?!
Thanks for implying me as heartless. That was nice of you.
Moral ignorance? yeesh - nice try. You actually think that forcing children to sit in a school for 12 years of their lives learning mostly junk is better than letting them get real life experience in a work place? -- quick reminder: it costs $13,000/year to educate a student (on average) in our country. And, in so far as this is true, a high school grad only makes less than $5k more than a high drop out. This means that it takes over 30 years to repay a high school education. (and that's not including the amount of extra money a person would be making if they had been getting 12 years of on-the-job training. It probably costs over 60 years to repay a high school graduation!)
Sorry, but the planet I'm on is Earth, and the arguments I'm espousing are not only moral, but are consistent. Every Statist, like yourself, MUST admit that Slavery is Freedom, and us Anarcho-Libertarians understand that only freedom is freedom.
Let us be fair enough to state that capitalism is an abstract. However, the said capitalism is epitomized by the notion of "maximization." The concept of the creation of 'surplus value' can only be explained in terms of exploitation. Exploitation can be physical or psychological. For instance, after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the U.S exploited this by coming up with the Marshall plan. They exploited the fear they had created in using an atomic bomb to enrich themselves. Sometimes capitalism is being carried out with total disregard of the involved parties!
I must vehemently disagree. You're simply spouting off Marxist nonsense.
When I buy a lemon, water, and sugar, and then make lemonade... I haven't exploited anyone by making a profit. Profit isn't evil.
Here in the UK we're in the middle of a huge financial shake-up. I saw the breakfast news this morning and they were listing where the axe will fall, and what services will have to be cut to pay off some of our debts. Now I'm not going to get into a debate about the bad decisions and poor housekeeping that got us into this mess, but it does occur to me that the cost of those gigantic banking bonuses etc will be directly born by the sick, the elderly, the disabled, and the disadvantaged in society. Capitalism's finest hour?
If you think that the governments rampant printing of money is capitalism
Then sure, capitalism is bad! Darn you capitalism, you're actually socialism!
Here's wild notion for ya!! Why not try answering some of the questions without referring to using the idiots guide to all things left wing?
Your lemonade analogy is quite apt given that it makes little sense and is a juvenile attempt to justify screwing half the world out of a living.
The heating bills in your house must be astronomical. It'll take the output of a power station to get you to show any warmth for your fellow human beings.
If the question is "Is Capitalism Fair" I agree with Evan. If the new paradigm for this forum is "How can we share the profit we make from our capitalist venture" then let's talk about Socialism. Maybe the topic is now "How come the biggest guys on the block are not including me?" You're talking about governments and laws and everything else except the basic concept of capitalism which in theory has nothing to do with fairness at all. It has to do with supply and demand. If you have nothing i need i'm not going to buy from you. Talking about the injustices of humanity itself is another subject.
Now don't kick me, Badtoe, I'm just saying.
not a question of buying and selling in the context of my OT . When people buy currencies to sell on or stocks to sell on this has nothing to do with basic consumerism. It's that kind of greed driven capitalism that is creating such huge social divides across the world. You can't just take the OT out of context and use the lowest base of capitalism to argue against the clear disparity of 300 extremely rich people who have more wealth than the poorest 3 billion people. Don't you find that disturbing? Capitalist driven governments create social divisions themselves unless of course America and the West has full employment ,no homelessness, free healthcare and full literacy. At least three of those should be a basic human right and not connected to any capitalist venture. As for injustice of humanity, do you really think capitalism (or perhaps the abuse of capitalism) has nothing at all to do with such injustices?
The greedy don't share wealth otherwise they wouldn't be greedy. Crooked politicians abuse their positions and take money from capitalists which in turn influences govt policy. Let me ask you this CPC; I'm assuming you're a`republican, do you think that Bush and cronies increased their personal wealth (excluding their salaries )during their time in office?
As for Evan, his cold calculating view on anyone trapped in poverty is probably typical of the breed of right wing conservatives who could place their hand on their heart and say they really do not give a shit about anyone except themselves.
Which is why I can't take his views seriously.
when people buy currencies and then sell them for more money, it has EVERYTHING to do with consumerism.
Yen has a price, and somewhere out there someone wants yen. So, someone will buy it and then sell it to them. Ta-da!
Or, how bout this.
If someone buys yen at a low price, and then sells at a high price (and thus turns a profit) he has done everyone good!! how? Marx would argue that "he is evil and should be murdered in the gulag". but people who aren't idiots realize that when you buy something LOW, you raise the price, and when you sell HIGH, you lower the price -- thus the "evil currency trader" is doing nothing more than stabilizing prices across countries, thus making it easier for multi-national businesses to do their thang.
Marx. Was. Wrong.
Oh. and one last thing
Don't ever call me a Republican. Don't ever call me a Democrat.
I'm neither. Both of those parties are the same: Statist control freaks who want to steal my wealth and use it to further their own ambitions.
I'm an Anarcho-Libertarian: the only political group that is consistent.
And quit calling me heartless. I'm engaged, am a wonderful person (or so they tell me), am becoming a teacher (or working on it), and have numerous friends.
QUIT. INSULTING. ME. -- you're lucky I don't report you.
Ugh, Joe, you got a bad attitude.
But here we go. (For a full answer to all your economics questions, look into my "Evan's Easy Economics". Or, if you'd rather read a good solid book, check out "Economics in One Lesson". Or if you'd rather watch a video, youtube.com search "Economics in one lesson".)
What is a price? A price is NOTHING more than the VOLUNTARILY agreed upon bartering quantities of two parties. If you are willing to give me a chicken for 3 pickles, and I agree, then the price of a chicken (in this one instance) is 3 pickles.
Did you notice anything there? Anything amazing? ...
Of course not: you subscribe to the Marxist notion that "all wealth is generated by the exploitation of another".
Here's what you missed: WE BOTH AGREED TO TRADE, AND THUS WE ARE BOTH WEALTHIER AS A RESULT!!!!! If you didn't think that the Pickles were worth more than the chicken, and I didn't think that the chicken was worth more than the pickles, we never would have traded.
WEALTH IS CREATED BY FREE TRADE!!! NOT EXPLOITATION!!!
Marx. was. wrong.
... but nice try! You tried to pin me down as "the idiot who knows nothing about left-wing", but unfortunately I switched the title to you, replacing "left wing" with "economics".
I'm not a RepubliCrat, i'm an Anarcho-Libertarian. Anarchy is the only non-contradicting political theory out there. Every statist must ultimately wrestle with their contradiction that "Slavery is Freedom"; only Anarcho-Libertarians understand that only freedom is freedom.
Nice try Rogers! But, theory is one thing and practice is another!
Amanda - maybe has nothing to do with capitalism - more about government greed and overspending.
I don't know so much about government greed, but the overspending bit I would agree with. The noughties were defined by an over-inflated debt culture, and even governments got on board, including ours. The banks should never have been de-regulated. Now the whole world is in trouble because of the greed of the few.
you're on the right track.
Now ask yourself this question: How is it that SO many entrepreneurs made the SAME mistake at the SAME time?
Think about it- if people who make bad decisions with their money (bad entrepreneurs) then they Lose money and likely become discouraged. If people make Good decisions(good entrepreneurs), then they will succeed.
Now, with these recent booms and busts, we see countless good entrepreneurs (people who have been in business for over a decade) suddenly, and all together, make the SAME mistakes.
I propose to you that the reason has nothing to do with capitalism, but has more to do with credit expansion: the Federal Reserve printed way too much money, lowered the interest rates too low, and sent completely incorrect information throughout the economy, which told entrepreneurs that certain endeavors might be profitable when they truly weren't.
hence....there is nothing new under the sun today
Evan Rogers analogy of lemonade sales is fair.
It however has me thinking of macro economics and micro economics. Or should i say macro capitalism vs micro capitalism.
On main street where we trade against one another there seems to be some justice in the capitalist open market. I get to your juice stand...which by the way should offer more than just lemons and sugar...and I give you a dollar for a drink...if and only if i find the price fair. If I figure I can buy ten cups and sell them for a profit down the street then I'm thinking like a true capitalist.
The bigger picture of lemons and sugar and even water nowadays is played on much bigger markets and that is where my pseudo-capitalism meets your capitalism. The international trade markets are being funded with fools gold, wooden nickels, paper money printed as fiat....name them what you want. They all spell an injustice to the true spirit of capitalism.
completely missing the point
and lemonade is frankly a ridiculous analogy
I'm talking about the extremes of capitalism and the damage this causes to human beings.
To argue against this by using juvenile economics just demeans the seriousness of the debate.
how is it ridiculous?
I used raw materials to create something that people value more than the raw materials.
If you think that lemonade is a ridiculous analogy, then that means you think that a human is only worth $10 -- we're 66% water (which is cheap), about 20% Carbon (cheap again) and the remaining 14% is random worth-while chemicals that can sell for a decent amount (but in such small quantities... hardly worth anything).
Such illogical conclusions are all based off of the notion that there is X amount of wealth in the world, and that to gain wealth is to steal it.
This is nonsense. Marx was wrong.
quote=Joe Badtoe ...I'm talking about the extremes of capitalism and the damage this causes to human beings.
quote=EGR... I used raw materials to create something that people value more than the raw materials.
edit ...quote thingy don't seem to work
Pretty soon I'm going back to a religious thread. This political science stuff is getting too heavy and I'm getting paranoid...ever since I've been talking oligarchs my computer has been acting all kinds of weird.
But seriously though. JB do you hear yourself talking...what's causing damage to human beings is not capitalism. Fear and Greed is not promoted generally by pure capitalists....or even pure socialists....
Evan hit it on the head...Someone out there is using raw materials to create something out of nothing...and perversely charge "we the people" interest while they use that new nothing, let's call it fiat, to drive market prices up.
It's not an American thing. It's all part of globalization.
Fake it til you make it may work in the bedroom...............does it work in capitalism.
Such illogical conclusions are all based off of the notion that there is X amount of wealth in the world, and that to gain wealth is to steal it.
You are right in that there is no X amount of wealth in the world - but wrong in your premise.
A dollar is only 'value' and it only has value because someone else needs or wants it - and is prepared to exchange you one dollar 'value' of some other kind for it. So for your dollar to have any value someone one else must 'need' it and this underpins its base value, and others must 'want' it and this gives it soem further increase in value. So for you to have a dollar, someone else must need it. If you have a billion dollars then people out there must need it pretty bad for it to have its 'value'. This can be tested by giving everybody a billion dollars each - and the value of the piece of paper, even the gold coin, dissapears.
First off: money today can be printed and created out of thin air. Heck, it doesn't even need to be printed. Bernanke created over 1 trillion dollars in under the last 3 years (he more than doubled it in 3 years, and more than tripled it in 10 years).
Second: Just because "i have money" doesn't mean that someone else "is poorer". If a shopkeeper values $1.99 more than he values a small bag of cheese (or something), then he and I both become wealthier: I don't care much about 2 bucks, and he doesn't care much about cheese!
Third: we're talking about how to price things. The only logical and consistent way to determine a price is to charge the most you can get for it. This means that if you charge 80 billion bucks for a slice of toast, you're gonna be out of luck. But if you charge 1 penny for a car, then you're just hurting yourself. Competition, Profit, Marginal Utility, all work together to determine a price that both parties can agree to.
- Just because he is receiving money and I am receiving cheese doesn't make him wealthier -
This is a symptom of Macro Economics. people see "GDP" and think that it actually means something!
I remember all that from my Economic's class, that's why I said on that other forum I've never met a liberal economic's professor. Economics once you understand it makes it easier to see how Capitilism is a good thing.
Hells yeah it does.
But there's one issue - a lot of Economics that is taught in college's these days is Keynsian nonsense. Check out the Austrian Economics stuff.
For starters, buy and read "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. (just about every one of my economics hubs has an amazon.com link to it!)
let me say that I agree with MOST of what you said.
Money loses value hard by printing money, and money has value ONLY because people accept/want it.
But just because I have money doesn't mean that i'm stealing/robbing/keeping other people from wealth.
If you store money up, and put it in a bank, you make it easier for people to get loans and start businesses or whatnot
If you keep your money hidden away from sight of everyone, then it's as though the money doesn't exist, and thus everyone gains wealth through increased value of money.
but you ain't robbin' no one
But just because I have money doesn't mean that i'm stealing/robbing/keeping other people from wealth.
I did not say you wre - I said that for your dollar to BE a dollar someone one else must need it. Its value in a perfect world would be one of exchange; in a world that uses its wealth to protect its wealth it gets its value from those who have nothing. For you living your electronically insulated life in your insulated economic model you are right about many of the things you say. In the whole world you are wrong, it is your apparent 'wealth' that is directly the cause of the real poverty outside your economic bubble. That bubble has been unstable since the 1970's and is only sustained by massive debt - whether your ideal of a business run world or any other shuffle of the cards, things cannot go on suported by unreal money in an unfair economic model.
The US and many other countries are in hock to China, all the economic allies of the US have been forced to carry part of the US debt to sustain your faulty model. And still huge areas of the world live in abject poverty. The 2012 event that some people predict could just be the collapse of the 2000 year old economic religion - I for one would welcome that.
no one "needs" a dollar! It's just a convenient unit of wealth that society agrees can be used to facilitate transactions. Money is inevitable through trade: to trade is to have money.
Think about it this way: If I own a chicken, but want a pickle, then in order for me to get a pickle, I would need a person who owns a pickle but wants a chicken. ... how often would that happen? So people are like "hey, it turns out that people seem to ALL like this yellow shiny metal! How bout I trade my chicken for some of that metal, and then, since it's impossible to find a pickle-owning-chicken-wanter, I"ll just trade the metal for a pickle! easy peasy"
PS: MY model has NOTHING to do with the US. I'm an Anarchist. I don't want my government stealing my money and keeping other people down: that's called Fascism, Socialism, Mercantilism, or Communism (take your pick: the only difference is the degree of oppression). I'm a Capitalist: that means NO government interferences.
Because what I'm talking about has nothing to do with the basics of how capitalism is meant to work I'm referring to how it works at the business end.
The extremes of capitalism cause extremes of poverty. You keep missing the point (intentional maybe?) about the outcasts of a capitalist society and how capitalism has played its part in excluding millions of people from being part of a healthier existence.
You seem obsessed with throwing Marxism into the mix and using this as a shield to protect your arguments. Your idea of capitalism isn't working otherwise those countries that practice it would surely have no people trapped in poverty, no homeless people, no beggars in streets no long unemployment queues and no need for law enforcement to have guns.
Does the US have a perfect capitalistic society? Is the economy buoyant? if it isn't in good shape what caused this downturn? Was it capitalist greed? Karl Marx isn't around anymore Evan, you'll have to blame someone else--- excluding your president.
Oh and people do not choose to sell themselves into penury and for you to view poverty stricken people as some kind of commodity is morally repugnant. What will you get your kids for xmas Evan? a neatly wrapped pine needle that fell of the xmas tree that you've had for 10 years? (that was a joke but your coldness seems less funny).
Stop thinking about yourself occasionally and take a look around you or maybe watch other news than the right wing F**kwits at Fox spew out.
I'm not missing the point, I'm denying the premise.
There's NO such thing as "extreme capitalism" (a new reality tv show, perhaps?). What you mean by "extreme capitalism" is "mercantilism" or "corporatism" or something along those lines.
If the government is involved, then it isn't capitalism.
I'm throwing Marx into the mix because people are still referencing his nonsense in their posts: I've already been told that "because I give money to someone else for something, then I'm poorer". This is nonsense. I've already been told that "in order for me to have wealth, I must have taken it from someone else", this is also nonsense. And both of those are from Marx.
You're assuming that everything bad that happens is because of capitalism. But wake up! - 30-50% of your money goes to the government! That ain't capitalism!
Almost every single "bad aspect" (which is debatable) of capitalism has mostly come about because of government. minimum wages, regulation, court orders, war, tariffs, granted monopolies, rent control etc etc.
If you think that someone's ideas die when their body does, then you have vastly underestimated your own worth on this planet. Have you ever quoted Jefferson or Lincoln? Well, they ain't around anymore! Quit it!...
When did I say that poor people are commodities? I mean, they can sell their labor, but I never claimed they were commodities! the heck are you talking about? YOU'RE THE ONE who was claiming that "taking independent things and putting them to a more consumer-friendly order" doesn't create wealth. And I was showing YOU that your argument would value humans at $10. That wasn't MY conclusion, buck-o, that was YOURS.
I do look around. I look around every day. but when I see a poor person, I don't think "Man, capitalism sure screwed him over", i think "man, I bet he's having trying to get what he needs because government is making it more difficult!". If he were a druggie, then government interference in the drug market has made those prices too high; if he doesn't have a job, maybe the minimum wage is keeping him out of work (there's a reason all the tech support is in India these days: it's minimum wage); if he can't find a good home, it's likely that rent control has influenced the prices of the home he needs; etc etc.
You see "evil companies", i see "evil governments". Which one of us is correct? well, the last time I paid a company it was VOLUNTARY, and the last time I paid a government it was INVOLUNTARY... so...
If capitalism was to mean, 'private ownership of property without exploitation' then 'surplus' would be out of the way. But if we are to talk about 'profits' then the buyer is paying an 'extra' penny for a certain quantity or a seller is selling at a 'lesser' price for a certain quantity.All this is possible if there is a certain force, "coercion" call it bargain.
Capitalism, overlooks the natural aspect of life where "sell" and "buy" do not exist. How much should we buy the ozone layer?
I totally disagree with your natural aspect of life idea.
In life as in nature all things appreciate or depreciate through the life cycle on the rules of buy, sell, or hold. The difference is that each organism has its own form of currency ( currencies ). We humans think in numbers and have managed to come up with the term money to direct us in the worth of being.
Money is such a bad judge of character.
It promotes competition which in itself is not a bad thing in that it leads to discovery and advancement. It also promotes greed and fear which only leads to the deterioration of societies.
A bee spends a lifetime running after nectar in order to please a queen who manages to enslave a small colony of male bees that serve only to procreate the species or add value to the hive. Bees are cruel by human standard. They do not put up with sickness or subordination. ( I think I have the male/ female role correct ).
Mother Earth is an organism and we humans exploit her. Who says building dams and reservoirs for the purpose of providing electricity to drive cities and industry is the bigger plan of nature. Exploitive humans do. Mostly the 300 which the OP mentions. The 3 billion just play along.
Mother earth and the Universe, including the ozone layer, don't give a dang about us humans. We are at the mercy of currency and nature has a buy, hold, or sell policy which is so much greater than that of the humans.
When will we - they - ever learn not to mess with mother nature.
Capitalists don't overlook nature. That''s like saying all Islamists are bad people. A few people who promote themselves as capitalist but who are not are the one's to fear. All these religious hubbers around here should be running after them and trying to convert them instead of us lesser beings.
This entire thread is having me look deeper into capitalism and I just came across the Marx warning of how capitalism can only lead to socialism and then communism......that's a scary yet so obvious possibility....
What's so scary about wanting more equality and a fairer system where not just the elite get to enjoy the privileges that employment and a decent wage can bring?
Is it the poor who 'mess' with mother nature or is it big business and corrupt governments who are tipping nuclear waste in poor countries like Benin or spilling oil in Alaska?
The '3 billion just play along?' WTF?? The 3 billion have no say in what happens can't you see that?
Can you even hear yourself talking ?
You say the poor have no say in how wealth is delivered.
That is such a crock. You live in a united sovereign country and elect representatives to represent the interest of the commoners against the oligarchal 300 that you ask us to debate about. Heck, let me act as a capitalist and point you to my hubs that talk of special interest groups and morganizing businesses in the hope that maybe you click an ad and so that i can earn a penny and maybe lighten the effects of poverty. Once you read that Morgan hubs then ask yourself again why the 3 billion do have a say but that say is monopolized in red herrings and white elephants.
Unifying only a million to actually challenge the super wealthy is a mammoth task. Banks and money managers go to school and learn to play " we the people" s money in the " wantabee free markets ". They get jobs and invest your pension funds.
Are you still convinced that the 3 billion have no say ? They do have a say and that say his voiced by the people they elect in politics and in business and in religion. That say in democracies fights the voice of special interest groups who are often rooted in authocracy.
The poor do have a voice....they just don't know or are too big in numbers to built unity like the smaller groups who own their aces do.
Everyone has a say in what happens - If you want something you buy it, if you don't, then don't!
Then, those things taht generate profits for the entrepreneurs are good investments, and the people who make them will make more!
Profits are a good thing.
Thank you Rajab for understanding what it is I'm trying to explain about what I mean about Capitalism ruining people's lives. It's difficult to pull people out of their comfort zone when they can see the relatively small benefits that capitalism has given them in terms of employment and home comforts.
I'm talking about the excesses and abuses of capitalism where governments collude with industrialists to exploit the poorest nations and force them into debt which means the poorest people on the poorest countries suffer the worst through no fault of their own.
Let me give you an example. The US had (and probably still has) a system whereby they would send in a guy to a poor (usually a Latin or South American) country and offer this country millions of dollars in development aid. The condition attached to this 'aid' was that all the rebuilding projects would be completed by US big business (excluding thousands of local people out of work). On top of that when the 'aid' was turned into a loan which the poorest countries couldn't pay it was game set and match to the US who now had that country by the balls and repayments of the loan was practically impossible due to the high interest rates so the repayments were effectively for life, keeping the paymasters in the black and putting the payee deeper in the red. That to me is how capitalism can rape a country and leave people's lives in ruin.
Not f***ing lemonade or any other pathetic pithy analogies coming from a small minded neo conservative minority..
Now, see I can agree with most of this, simply because you wrote "[the] abuses of capitalism where governments collude with industrialists to exploit..."
And I can agree with that.
But you need to understand that Laissez-Faire Capitalism is NOT "government". At all.
If it's government, it ain't capitalism. It's Cronyism, it's fascism, it's mercantilism, it's socialism, but it sure ain't capitalism. Today in the US, through taxes and inflation, 30-50% of your income goes to the government. That ain't capitalism.
It so seems Evan G has had a dream of his so called capitalism. More less he's describing Anarchism. where everything is no one's responsibility. Governments are persons given mandate to act. These could as well be capitalists.
They can never exist a real system where there are no roles. Evans, to think of a system that is self propelling, is to give credit to a socialist ideology where everything is equal and that is not capitalism!
I don't have "dreams", I'm just pointing out that "giving everyone a billion dollars that were stolen from everyone else" is NOT Capitalism.
In fact, I think it's called "theft". Let's see if I'm right...
50.0000001% of those people who decide to vote choose to take money from Peter and give it to Paul. The money is to be collected under threat of jail and a gun to the head...
... yeah, that's theft alright. Legalized theft.
have fun dealing with the fact that ANY government HAS to be operated via theft.
what? Your argument is crazy!!
Just because I make a profit doesn't mean I'm stealing wealth from people!!!
Think about it: I work hard, and because I invest my money in making (i dunno...) tables, I've become so good that I can make one table every day. Altogether it costs me $100 to make table, and so I charge $115 because I want to live a better life than I had before...
... if you BUY the table for $115, it doesn't mean that I've stolen your wealth!!!
it means that YOU value the table MORE than the $115, and I value the $115 MORE than I value the table!!!
WE BOTH WIN!!!
I think the obvious question would be, if you live in a capitalist society, how does it work? and what kind of effect does it have on your life, and the people around you.
In all of my years of watching various countries unfold through documentaries, travel shoes, and various media. No two Capitalist countries operate in the same manner. The United States is Capitalism with multiple personalities. There is always some loophole in our basic idea of Capitalism, where certain things might be looked at as socialists, and some even as close to communists as you can get.
Take our welfare system for example. People on welfare are only allowed so much money to live on. They are only allowed to buy certain kinds of food for their infant children, and only allowed so much money for shelter, which pretty much keeps them in a never ending shithole of life.
Add to that that they are constantly under supervision, forced to do certain things as a requirement to get the assistance they need to live on. And, if they don't do all the required things they get nothing..yet that is not considered communism? I have been on welfare and it certainly feels like it.
Did you know that you also have to prove that you deserve unemployemnt in the United States? You could have held a job for 30 years, yet if you go to file for unemployment, they assume you are lazy, or did something wrong, that you no longer have a job, and basically treat you like shit. You also have to tell them where you have been, and in some cases report what jobs you have applied for. Like it is any of their business. Does that sound like Capitalist freedom to you?
And what about people on social security who get their medical care paid for by Uncle sam. Yet you are only allowed so much of that money, and can only go to approved doctors..What's free about that? Sounds like socialism to me.
Then you have the people who have butloads of cash, nobody tells them what they can and can't do. They can live anywhere, buy anything they want, do anything they want. And, these are usually the people that have connections to our wonderful Capitalist government. Usually people attatched to big corporations who really dominate or governement. When the banks walked up to George bush and asked him for Billions of dollars in Bailout money...he asked how much do you need, and pretty much wrote them a blank check.
Do you think if the american people walked up to the front steps of the whitehouse and asked for an equal share of Billions of Dollars of what the banks got, that the people in the white house would even give a crap? Hell no. They would just tell us to get lost, or have half of us arrested.
So, I don't believe true capitalism exists anymore. Just as I never believed that communism was the evil of the world as our government has tried to drill into or brains for decades. You find out from watching various documentaries that a lot of what was told back in the 1950s was a bunch of bullcrap, used to scare people into believing our way is best.
And, then comes along weapons of mass destruction.
A good post Brimacandy very intelligently thought out.
Do you live near Evan?
If there's unnecessary government intervention, it ain't capitalism.
Welfare ain't capitalism -- but charity is.
"People on welfare are only allowed so much money to live on"
They're lucky they get anything!
I can agree that there is no true capitalism here. But everywhere communism has been tried, death has followed. Mao - over 50 million, Stalin - over 15 million, The Nazi's were a socialist group (but many claim fascism, as though there's a big difference) - 11 mill, early america was communist, and deaths by laziness ensued.
so people are lucky if they get welfare? You think people want to claim welfare? (I mean the majority). Would you rather have a dog eat dog world and the weakest just drop dead on the streets? Is that your world? I mean really Evan is that what you think of people less fortunate than yourself?
If George Bush had to fend for himself without the help of his Daddy he would have been fond dead in an alley stinking of beer. But he got lucky having a wealthy pop. did you get lucky Evan? What about those folk who are not blessed with wealthy relatives or decent parents who can guide them through life. We're not all the same are we? So what's best ; help those less fortunate and try and rescue their lives or just let people rot?
You can give a straight answer to that if you want.
You keep referring to Mao, Stalin as Communists but they didn't practice true communism they simply ruled by terror and paranoia. Fascism isn't socialism surely even you must know that?
Death by laziness? WTF????
That's topped the entire debate. I can't compete with that remark. Hats off to you Evan I'm intellectually drowned by your extraordinary grasp of world politics and the order of things.
Yes, people are lucky to get welfare. They're UNlucky that minimum wage laws make it harder for them to get jobs.
I think that people who claim welfare GLADLY take it over starving. In fact, many of the people claiming welfare take it over a job!! -- my neighbor is a manager, and he REGULARLY has to deal with people asking him "why should I bother working for you for 8 hours of my day, when I can just stay on welfare and make about half as much (but then have my entire day off to do something else under the radar)?". I'm not making this up! He told me! He has to compete with welfare! He does.
In a "dog eat dog world" the dogs would join together VOLUNTARILY to fight against the other evil dogs.
"What about those folk who are nto blessed with wealthy relatives..."
Listen: life sucks. Don't blame ME for it, blame God, or whoever you worship. The simple fact of the matter is that WELFARE IS THEFT!!!
ON the other hand, CHARITY is NOT theft. Sorry to break the news to you, but God kicked us out of the Garden of Eden (or whatever) and life out here can suck sometimes. But that doesn't mean that I need to have a gun put to my head in order to be "charitable" to unfortunate souls.
See how that works? You're demanding that I admit that "slavery is freedom". I'll never admit this. You'll never convince me otherwise. But I know that I can convince you: the truth is a powerful force.
Yes, death by laziness. Here's a quote that will (hopefully) change your insulting tone:
Setup of the quote: The first americans arrived in Jamestown in May of 1607. The soil was rich and fertile, and there was food everywhere. ... but within 6 months, only 38 of the 104 settlers had died of famine. OF FAMINE.
"So great was our famine, that a Savage we slew and buried, the poorer sorte took him up againe and eat him; and so did divers one another boyled and stewed with roots and herbs." (George Percy's Account of the Voyage to Virginia and the Colony's first days", book written by Warren M. Billings)
what was the problem? well, it was "not the barennesse and defect of the Countrie, as is generally supposed." (same source, same person writing)
And all the settlers were chosen for their hard work, on top of it!! Hard working individuals who were in the land of bounty couldn't keep themselves alive?
Well, the British Government, in 1611 sent Sir Thomas dale to investigate the problem. He, as wikipedia says (and numerous other sources concur. "How Capitalism Saved America" by Thomas DiLorenzo; Mathey Page Andrews' "Virginia, The Old Dominion, vol 1", and Bethell's "The Noblest Triumph" all agree)...
"Perhaps Dale's most lasting reform was economic. In 1613, without stockholder consent, Dale abandoned the communal agriculture which had proved unsatisfactory and assigned 3-acre (12,000 m2) plots to its "ancient planters" and smaller plots to the settlement's later arrivals. Measurable economic progress was made, and the settlers began expanding their planting to land belonging to local native tribes. Not only did food production increase markedly, but the following year John Rolfe succeeded on his plot in raising the first hybrid tobacco: the key to the colony's future."
So... sorry... The literature seems to agree with me.
and one last one:
""As at this time were most of our chiefest men either sicke or discontented, the rest being in such dispaire, as they would rather starve and rot with idleness, then be persuaded to do any thing for their owne reliefe without constraint..." -- John Smith
Death. By. Laziness.
You are dead wrong about welfare. People don't go on welfare because they want to, they go on welfare because they have to. Those people who don't have jobs have no money, and you can't do anything in this country without money. It's either welfare or being homeless with nothing. And, once you are homeless, you never recover.
Your manager who bitches about having to compete with welfare, is probably the same person who bitches about having to pay minimum wages and benefits to his employess. And, he probably looks at people working in China for a dollar a day, as a dream come true.
The problem with people who own businesses, they want to do as little work, and spend the least amount of money to make the largest profits they can. One of the biggest complaints of employers is how much money they spend on Labor, and they are always looking for new ways to cut it. Which is why half of Americas jobs are now down in Mexico, India, and China. Leaving Millions of americans without good paying jobs.
So, what are all these millions of American's supposed to do? In your view there should be no welfare. Are you going to tell that person who worked for 30 years, who got the shaft by an employer who decided to split to mexico, that they don't deserve any help?
Most people who go on unemployment and welfare may have come from a good paying job, who's employer decided that they were no longer useful to them, and just dropped them like a rock. I know that I worked full time for 15 years, and I no longer have a job. Being terminated like over 6,000 other employees at the company I worked for.
American companies, and those that are currently financially stable need to quit bitching about people on welfare. Because if they were ever to get into the same situation I am, you see how fast they panic, and make a beeline for the local welfare office.
If american companies seriously care about getting people off welfare, they should be prepared to offer a decent wage, decent hours, and stop trying to nickle and dime, and take advantage of their employees. Maybe more people who are on welfare would want to work for them.
If anything I think there should be more labor laws. American companies have been getting away with too much for too long. When was the last time you saw someone on welfare getting a 600 billion dollar bailout?
Or, someone on welfare being able to outsourse themselves so they can get more money and tax breaks?
Maybe people on welfare should be able to put themselves on the stock market, so when they want to go belly up, they can dump their stock on the market and sell themselves to the highest bidder, and never have to work again.
If anyone is robbing this country, it sure as hell isn't people on welfare.
Of course it is fair, especially in America. You can make as much as you want and it all belongs to you. What you do with it is your business and no one else's, especially the government.
You just have to make sure that you pay your taxes. If you don't you could go to jail for the rest of your life. make sure that your car has up to date plates, register with social security. make sure your identification is up to date. This all costs money.
And, what you might think is free, is also a way for them to know almost everything about you. Just go without paying your taxes for a couple years, and you will see how fast they come looking for you.
It's about the same in Canada....
I know alot of people who own houses but not many who own property. Miss a few tax payments and you get to put your house on your shoulders and you are free to do with it what you want.
We are vassals to our kings, who today are the super wealthy. And I'm not talking about millionaires here.
I try hard to be non judgemental about immigrants but when after generations of my family having built this country I find myself being served by a first generation immigrant at the welfare office I do lose it.
I am fortunate to not be involved in a relationship and have no children so I bare the grunt and pain of it all from the sidelines.....
Jesus H tap dancing Christ!!!
Trying not to be judgemental and follow it up by admitting you're pissed off because a legal immigrant who pays tax happens to deal with you at the Welfare Office!
You do know that the first port of call for the far right fanatics is to blame the immigrants for everything including taking the jobs that far right fanatics wouldn't dream of doing?
You're walking into fire with this one.....
I always said this was hell....50 years of fire has taught me a few things....pretty soon you'll be accusing me of hate crimes....
far right fanatic.....sheesh....pretty soon you'll be telling me I'm a Gazi warrior and opening the door to the torture chamber.....
that's the problem with your type....you want to talk free society and smack like that but when someone expresses honest opinion you take out the whip...
what the hey was your objective when you started this thread....do you honestly care about capitalism and reality or what.....
I don't give a shit about capitalism and I've seen the reality of what carnage extreme capitalism can do to the world.
You are as entitled as to your view as I am to mine xobliam but if you're gong to imply that being served by an immigrant pisses you off because he happened to have a job when you don't then I'll point out the contradiction of your argument.
And I haven't accused you of anything. I can't legislate for how you think I think I see you.
Hate crimes? your words not mine.
Is it fair for a lion to eat an antelope? Fair to whom--to the antelope or to the lion? Unregulated capitalism is called social Darwinism--survival of the fittest applied to human society as in Ayn Rand's objectivism, Gordon Gekko's "greed is good," or Lloyd Blankfein's doing the Lord's work at Goldman Sachs. As JFK said "a government that ignores the poor won't be able to protect the rich." The increase in income disparity since Reagan's presidency and the current high unemployment are causing many to lose their faith in our democratic free market system.
No, a sense of entitlement created by the left is what's causing people to lose faith in the democratic free market system.
oh god I was wondering when such a distorted view would appear.
now where did I put my nonsense spray......
The Free Market isn't working is it? Otherwise the global downturn wouldn't be happening would it, but it is isn't it and you can't keep blaming anyone but right wing bankers and corrupt politicians (politicians from all sides).
A sense of entitlement?? You mean helping out the victims of a free market economy who have been deemed surplus to requirements?
I think it really is time you changed the second bit of your name.
Wake up and smell the coffee Joe, capitalism didn' cause the economic down turn government policy, intervention in the free market caused the problems!
Speaking of helping out the victims, how has this benevolent government of Obama's helped those "victims" so far? Spending a trillion dollars on stimulus that went to unions? Meanwhil unemployment is up, foreclosures continue to rise and fear and uncertainity have consumers reluctant to do anything, and loans are still hard to get!
When Lincoln came into power the House of Morgan was busy building the banking system through offices in London. Morgan was the equivalent of a central banker. Republicans are right wing. I say that since not everyone is up to par on political science. The FRB owes it's beginning to the House of Morgan. The GOP, in their freedom speech, pitch for less government involvement in "we the people"s life. So the Feds continue to monitor the fiscal health of the nation as an independent from goverment company made up of mercantile bankers.The Feds are morganized in their own little way.
So the right wingers argument of fair capitalism is moot if one agrees that monopolizing free markets by adding newly printed money to it is a viable argument.
The left wing Dems on the other hand prefer to push the Spirit of America towards a more socialistic type (liberal) government where they have more control on the affairs of "we the people" in exchange for better health care, etc....yet the donkeys have to look to the Feds who feed the beasty market where the pensions and bonds and economic issues play out. The Feds secure the donkeys plans with a good ole stimilus kick just to keep the market beasties happy.
It's almost as if the whole economy, not just the American economy, is being morganized. A hostile take over of the little peoples freedoms on a global level seems to be in the making.
I may have my political science facts a little mixed up but what does that matter, if the donkey bucking the elephant story is just a minor game in the big league story of politics.
Talking of leagues.....bankers and pawn brokers are not novelty to the House of Morgan and to Hamilton, the banker of Jefferson's era where Democratic-Republicans were but one animal. ( who ever heard of an assaphant) Well that animal might have existed in the time told in the Homeric hymns but recall that Plato the logical philosopher wasn't big on phantasmagoria and the Republic came about - Plato and the oligarchs is a common theme ). The 30 member Lombard league which ruled a good part of Rome, Italy, France, 1500 years ago is also interesting to this capitalism story.
If I had to write a book about American politics and global politics i'd call it....
Who is the lord who rules the hell-a-phantass-magoric market beasty.
Ask the widow Stickney-Faucigny-Lucinge.
The banshee lady in room 314, the succubus.....
Here's a good example of the fruits of un-regulated or insufficiently regulated capitalism.
Angelo R. Mozilo, the founder and former chief executive of Countrywide Financial, once the nation’s largest mortgage lender, agreed to pay $67.5 million Friday to settle a civil fraud case brought by the Securities and Exchange Commission last year.
Read the whole sick story here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/busin … r=1&hp
Mostly due to his being a total scumbag criminal. Dirtbags will always exploit any system's weaknesses. Communism, socialism, capitalism, none of those words will deter a greedy schemer from doing exactly what these guys did. The only thing that changes is what their title is--CEO, Senator, Comrade, Secretary, Chairman--and the mechanisms by which they get filthy rich.
The country with the biggest concentration is the US, with 403. But China comes second with 64 living in the mainland. That figure jumps to 89 if Hong Kong is included.
Very little in life is fair.
One must make the most of what has to work with.
Can't Blame anyone but yerself if yer not one of worlds 1000+ billionaires.
Capitalism sucks, cause what it really means is the first ten people in line get it, hold it, and won't give up till death, then they pass it on, and the other ninety people in line can go suck eggs. oh, and like it.
...become one of the 1st ten people....then you'll love capitalism....:-)
So let's use the commerce kings of the 18th c. for example. They may or may not have been the first ten. Along comes a few guys, let's say Hilton, Sr. and Rockefeller. They weren't first 10 but hit it big. End of story? No, because then comes Neiman, his sister, and her husband, Markus (sp?). They, along with Macy, started from nothing, made a hit, stuck it out during the depression, lost everything and restarted. End of story? No. 20th c. along comes - well let's skip right on up to Mr. Gates. First in line? Not by a longshot. How about Ebay - a classic modern day success story and pure capitalism at its finest - begun by a woman from Jamaica I believe, who started the idea of internet haggling. If you're in line and you're number 11, start a new line!
I don't feel it's fair. I agree w/ your observation.
I used to think this country was the best, capitalism included but you make a very good point.
and celebrites, or actors aren't better than carpenters.
So maybe everyone could be allowed make a BIT extra but not SO much that the average person is poor or struggling.
See, I just don't get this perspective. Who would you suggest 'allow' the average person to make a bit more? Who will give them that bit? Yes, the guy who has made a success through capitalism, supply and demand, free enterprise. If there were no capitalism, we would ALL BE POOR! No one would do anything because everything is handed to them except that there would be NOTHING TO HAND THEM!
I don't know what anyone earns for a living but I do know this: if the damand for MY work far outweighed the price people were paying to get it, I would demand and get a lot more money for what I'm doing, assuming what I do is unique to me (as in the case of said celebrities).
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