The Yahoo financial section of Oct 18 has a great article by Robert Kiyosaky called “The rise and Fall of America” – it is an absolute MUST READ in my opinion for all interested in what is happening in today’s America and where we go from here. Below you will find the beginning of the article, but please google up and read more.
“The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
• From bondage to spiritual faith;
• From spiritual faith to great courage;
• From courage to liberty;
• From liberty to abundance;
• From abundance to complacency;
• From complacency to apathy;
• From apathy to dependence;
• From dependence back to bondage.”
he completely ignored all of the important things, like "abandoning a market currency", or "invading way too many countries than you can afford."
He just uses vague words to convey meanings that ... don't really mean much
In terms of foreign policy, America have never had a coherent philosophy. Apart from the fact that has been using war as a way to enrich itself and got involved ONLY in parts of the world where the immediate interest was obvious, US also created monsters that later on could not be controlled.
Enough to think of Mobutu, Noriega, Saddam, just to name a few
We can agree that the U.S. over and over again used its military to solve problems better handled through diplomacy and meddled many times in the affairs of other countries with very mixed results. As a former resident of Romania would you not agree that the U.S. deserves some credit for the dissolution of the USSR along with criticism for Vietnam, Iraq, Grenada, Chile, etc.
Robert Kiyosaki is a crackpot motivational speaker and financial adviser with no credentials that qualify him to make such a dire prediction. American democracy is much more durable than he imagines.
Durable only if American attitude and sentiment on the whole changes from greed and lust to interest in the greater good. Othewise, any ole' crackpot has it right and our civilization will crumble. It's not like we're not seeing the beginning of that right now...
KIYOSAKY DID NOT COME UP WITH THOSE POINTS, HE GOT THEM FROM A HISTORIAN; ALL HE DID WAS TO EXEMPLIFY THE POINTS AND I FOR ONE THOUGHT HIS EXAMPLES WERE VERY GOOD.
At any rate, I believe it is worth anyone's time to read and think about it
True, Kiyusaki cribbed the ideas from Alexander Tyler, a Scottish anti-democracy historian who died in 1813.
Alexander Tytler (1747-1813) was a Scottish-born English lawyer and historian. Reportedly, Tytler was critical of democracies, pointing to the history of democracies such as Athens and its flaws, cycles, and ultimate failures. Although the authenticity of his following quote is often disputed, the words have eerie relevance today:
Moreover, Tyler apparently never said or wrote the lines quoted by Kiyusaki.
Misquotation - Tytler Cycle
The following unverified quotation has been attributed to Tytler, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
* From bondage to spiritual faith;
* From spiritual faith to great courage;
* From courage to liberty;
* From liberty to abundance;
* From abundance to complacency;
* From complacency to apathy;
* From apathy to dependence;
* From dependence back into bondage.
There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having made the statement. In fact, this passage actually comprises two quotations, which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first portion (italicized above) first appeared on December 9, 1951, as part of what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson.
I can agree with you on that one, Deeds.
I bought one of his books... that was a waste of money.
Then i looked up who his father was...
Nope, no rich dad, no poor dad!
Which office is the tea party running him for?
Excellent points, Petra. Is America going to be the next Rome?
Seriously, you can look within our own history and see cycles of abundance (greed)followed by recession or depression. I often wonder if, with each new cycle, Americans are losing the fiber (notice I did not label it "moral") to withstand, endure, and pull together to pull the country and each other out of the latest hole.
The current situation seems (to me) marked by apathy on one end (the haves) and dependence on the other.
Are you familiar with "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahogonny" by Brecht and Weill?
It's a satire on opera and capitalism and much more interesting than anything kyiusaki could come up with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_and_F … _Mahagonny
Here's a link to the YouTube trailer on Mahogonny.
Audra MacDonald sings "Show us the way to the next Whiskey Bar" aria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yK9LKtz … re=related
I have been living in US for the last 30 years (since 1979) and for me is more than obvious the erosion of moral standards as well as the continuous lowering of living standards could and should NOT be ignored. The process may have started long before, but I am taking only about what I saw with my own eyes.
Greed, corruption and incompetence have taken over and the decline is noticeable. The sense of entitlement is also visible and I am not surprised that with the help of unscrupulous banking practices a lot of people found themselves in big trouble.
The one characteristic that all Empires have in common was insatiable greed and uncontrollable desire for power – we all know what happened next. America is not different and it WILL follow the same fate. I wish the future was different and brighter, but it is not
Another much more interesting negative, pessimistic view of America--Lar's von Trier's movie "Dogville" starring Nicole Kidman. Here's Roger Ebert's review of the movie--
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbc … 90303/1023
Dogville YouTube trailer
The FALL of America is inevitable and it is not a question of IF it is a question of WHEN
The fall is inevitable for sure, but the question is how long will it take? The present crisis is designed by American investment banks like Lehman Bros or Bear Sterns, knowing the fact that the US will be replaced by the Asia sooner or later. Banks will be taken over or merged with some other banks but what about the common people? Nobody seemed to think about the common man's distress... and that's the sign the fall in coming. And that's the rule of history... nobody can help! I personally think by the end of this century the American hegemony will be over... yes this century will belong to the US leadership despite the crisis!
And for some reason you think we expect this country to last through eternity? American democracy was bought sold and paid for long ago. Yet the democratic fervor of the population still persists. As long as the gov't fears its own people, democracy survives. Democracy is only curtailed by those in power. Not the gov't, THOSE IN POWER. The people who actually rule this country are all made up of unaccountable tyrranies that operate in secret. The Fortune 100 is how some refer to them.
It's only inevitable if there is no reversal of greed and powermongering. And it does appear that both are continuing. However, we've witnessed some very unlikely things in our generation. The fall of the Berlin Wall and death-grip control of Soviet Russia, and more.
What really is the foundation is the paradigm change on a personal basis, spreading one person to another. Some say it happens too slowly, but I disagree. Never have I lived in a time when common people thirst for peace and equanimity as now. It's those who are in power positions, who are hoarding money and keeping it from the masses that are creating the real problems.
Change is possible, but it has to start on a personal basis, and we have to demonstrate trust in one another that we will live in equanimity.
Interesting article, however, nothing new. It appears to me something for entertainment purposes.
We all studied history and know that America was not quite the fearful unknown when the Pilgrims arrived that it was at the time of the first few shipments of indentured slaves into Virginia. Virginia was well on its way to tobacco prosperity when the Pilgrims arrived in New England. There was money to be made and the Pilgrims were planters backed by English adventurers, (this is how venture capitalists were called at the time). So the spiritual faith part seems to be a bit off.
As for the great courage part -
"By crafting the Declaration of Independence, the colonists knew they were essentially declaring war on the most powerful country in the world -- England."
The Revolutionary War was started at a time when the English economy was saddled with servicing a huge national debt due to the money borrowed and spent to finance the Seven Years' War (to make England a world power). England wanted to tax the prospering American colonies and wanted to now enforce certain laws such as a series of Navigation Acts that had been previously overlooked. The colonies would have been restricted to the use of ships built, owned and manned by the British (New England derived a major part of its income from building and trading ships at the time); certain commodities would have been required to be shipped only to England to pass them through English customs (tobacco, rice, sugar - the main stuff); similarly European goods shipped to America would have been required to pass through English customs and taxed (America relied on import from Europe for certain goods). Couple this with the fact that before the Revolutionary War began, William Pitt, who as PM was responsible for winning the Seven Years' War, told the Parliament that they cannot conquer America should they choose to attempt it.
So it seems to me that the history of America, just like that of any other country, was not so much shaped by things like spiritual faith, courage and stuff, but rather by financial interests and manipulation of the people.
Manipulation of the people? What do you mean?
You don't believe for a minut that we really have a voice, do you?
"We the people" is a sad joke - the perfect slogan for manipulation - that gets people drunk on pure water; with the latest Supream Court decision "we the people" became even more of a joke.
Everything is decided ahead of time and we are being told "what's good for us", so we just follow blindly and think we are free and we have choices. WE DON'T.
I believe that "we have a voice." It's not an either/or proposition. Certain people have louder vocies than others. But on many issues ordinary people do have a voice in city, state and federal elections and referendums. I agree that to people's voice isn't as effective as it should be, but it's not accurate, in my opinion to say that we have no voice. If you don't vote November 2 you shouldn't be complaining about having no voice!
I see my voice counting for nothing. How can I compete with corporations that spend millions to get their candidate elected. The candidate that will protect THEIR interest, NOT mine.
They are too BIG to fail and I am too small to matter; "And that's the way it is"!
If everyone adopted this attitude there would be no elections. We have to fight on for our beliefs.
The only way you can compete w/ corporations is by not buying their pukeinursoup products and as much as possible not working for them. And I don't know, expressing ur views on corporate power in relatively popular internet forums with the allowance of relatively free expression, perhaps?
Election Day is November 2 in the U.S.
We have enough time to check up on the background of the candidates and their voting records -- so that we don't have to vote based on who has the most vicious attack ads.
The only wasted vote is the one that you don't cast. The only thing that political bosses and crooked government officials fear is you standing in a voting booth.
And, please don't forget the propositions. They often involve big $$$.
Election day. Nov 2. I was just wandering. How long has early voting been around? Is it fairly new?Reckon why it REALLY came about? Voting booth?
I am being sarcastic. But I do have many thoughts (mostly negative) about the votiing process.
I have this idea that the political bosses already know how THIS election is going to turn out, AND that they are planning already for the next one.
The "political bosses" are counting on voter apathy to keep them in power. We don't need riots in the streets, nor do we need to accept rule by special interests as the norm. We have already in place a system that allows us to TTBO.
Let's use it.
How right you are MOM 101 and how sad it is!
"have this idea that the political bosses already know how THIS election is going to turn out, AND that they are planning already for the next one."
That's a cynical statement. Of course we all can look at the polls which usually, but not always, fairly accurate in their predictions. For example, it's no secret that Cuomo will be elected governor of New York unless he's caught screwing a 12 year old before Nov. 2.
It is the electoral proccess, Ralph that makes us cynical!
I'm not cynical. Or at least I don't mean to be.
I asked earlier, how long has early voting been around?
Petra, as bad as I hate to, I have to agree with you. Yes, we elect (or one is chosen for us) a president to run our country. But is he running it for our best interest or the interest of the big boys? Lets take pharmacy for example. Would you say that medicine is big business? Do you think there has been a major increase in the amount of medicine being prescribed? Do you think there is a connection between them and "someone" trying to put a ban on herbs?
Oh, I HAVE to shut up. This is my subject, and trust me I could go and go and
But I will say this, I am beginning to think maybe it is time to be cynical as you call it Ralph. Or maybe critical. Whichever.
We should always be critical but also realistic and skeptical of conspiracy theories. I agree with your observation about the influence of the pharmaceutical industry (as well as oil, mining, banking, electric power, etc.). I've done a number of hubs called "Crook Alerts" about the depredations of the pharmaceutical, insurance and banking industries.
Ralph, I am old fashioned. I do not apologize for that. But I see things as leaning toward a conspiracy more and more each day.
I am so very thankful that I grew up when and where I did. I believe there will be a day that we will have to rely on our smarts to survive.
I believe we need to start teaching the younger generations "survival skills".
Dang, they are good to know even in the absence of a disaster.
Do you think we will see a different monetary system utilized?
I don’t believe in conspiracy when it comes to “the voyage to the moon was a hoax” or “hurricane Katrina was a manipulation of natural forces – the same has been said about Haiti).
NO, in such conspiracy I do not believe, but I do have serious doubts about 9/11, Pearl Harbor and a few other facts that have been used as a pretext so public opinion can be manipulated and America can get the “green light” to go to war.
I am also convinced that the president (whoever that may be) is being served a fixed hand and has little or no freedom to keep or fold his cards while his poker game is played by others behind close doors.
Yes, I may very well be cynical and I can’t wait for real – palpable facts and future events to prove me wrong
Much like they tell us what they want us to hear. It is not so much as what we hear or what they are telling us that frightens me, it is what they DO NOT tell us.
I am seiously having doubts about the voyage, but yes, I agree totally with you Petra.
Back when Jimmy Carter ran for and won the presidency, I was to young to vote, and not at all interested in politics. I don't remember much of what was or was not accomplished, but one thing I can remember was that he did not get re-elected, and that my dad (who was a STRONG republican) said the biggest reason was that he wasn't anybodys "yes" man.
Politics, ain't much we can do. Voicing opinions don't help, except to the extent as giving us an outlet to vent.
I have an idea. If it is money they want, and if it is money that gets things done, then would it not be good to start a "business" for the people, by the people? Example. Each person could pay dues, and the money from those dues could then be used in such ways as the big boys........I know, in order for it to succeed, we would need a huge majority to be on board. But that is just a thought.
I still think we should be better preparing our youth.
Petra, read your profile. Many of us here have enjoyed much greater freedom in the past compared to the present day. You, on the other hand, are more than likely seeing more compared to before. My point, do you see this country as becoming a bit communist? I do not ask that as a joke. This has been an item that has been discussed in many a conversations lately. Many people feel that little by little we are bieng stripped.
I remember growing up, a friend and I were with her mom, going to the movies. She was listening to some talk show host on the radio and I asked her who that was. He was talking scary stuff. Much like Ramsy only it was not him. I told her he must be mean or something or trying to cause trouble. She just laughed. NOW, I think back to that quiet often. I now listen to such people as Ramsy, with a keen ear.
I have been hearing a lot about population control. I thought, no way. But hey, the more I hear, the more I read, it all points to the same.
Things are getting tough and I don't just mean the economy. But hey, everything has two sides. I wonder what they are thinking of us? Maybe something like "give them an inch and they'll take a mile".
I guess i misspoke in an earlier post, I am cynical, but I do not want to be.
With both parents gone, and being an only child, things get a little shaky. Am I being too careful?
My son, a junior in hs, has a business law class. Seems Ramsy is "in" our classroom teaching via tapes.
Mom. power block donations are done all the time, Unions, political special interest groups, so called philanthrapers. A lot of pay outs to make a rich man richer. The sad fact is the Congress and Senate are for sale. You can not match the lobby monies or stay with them, it would bankrupt a small group.
and remember, no thief will pass laws that affect any other thief. It's a good ol boys power broker club.
My father served on staff for Admiral Rickover when he was alive, at the Navy department and I grew up around the 14th street circle and the Pentagon in DC, and had the privelage to page one summer at the Capitol Offices.C is closed to outsiders without an invite, reguardless of the payout. So think more Localy, not Nationaly.
It is all on the take, for sale to the Highest bidder. There are exceptions. but few and far in-between. If they take special interest monies from Joe Smith average citizen, they loose the lobby privaleges, they will not. It's an un-written code of behavior, well understood between all parties. They will gladly take the donations, but never cross partisan line. Lobby first, people second.
If they work that way they get influence to be on the better committies. (ie; more power) if not they get lesser assignments.
To get to them, Work at the local level at home. Like I said, Not National
You have to be set up to pamper their special interests in their Home State; ie: make them look good in front of the Home folks, because it equals votes.
Find the issue that got them elected or is getting them elected and pay for that. Remember Campaigns, no matter how dirty or lousy, cost big bucks at local levels. So Find that issue thats key.
Do that, and you may get an ear once in a whle. And a nice State job to go with it! or a Nice Business Contract thats sets you up for life!
Mike Conner, Conner Business systems here in nashville, gave Jim Cooper a complete office staff and building to have him here or at least appear to be here during the Flood.
They went out across the City looking for Folks in his district denied by FEMA that had need of real flood assistance. Small Businesses, and some regular folks that were destroyed and or had staff laid off.
They, thru Jim, got FEMA to re-build them when normal procedures could not, thus Cooper is leading the Home race right now, "a Politican for the People" is the slogan, and it is working.
Yesterday Conner got awarded the Contract "exclusively" to furnish both brand new Convention centers here in Town, The New Medical Convention center (a 4 Story complex) and the New Giant City Center (massive bilding project) down town. Along with the New Hotel being Built on the Complex.
He, under the table is kicking back to Cooper, who is now going to fight to try to stop the Small Business tax and Hold the Bush cuts! And Conner is Hiring contract labor in Coopers name to say Cooper is boosting Jobs for Tennessee. Again more votes!
Both men will make millions off of it!
That's, unfortunatly, how America Works.
I see and understand where you are coming from.
Its just really sad. And the sad thing is, the youth coming up today, will they be able to handle it?
I too am from TN. South east. What part are you in?
Sorry, I see that now. I just woke up, got my son off to school and my eyes must not be "focused" as of yet.
Dang, I am doomed. I am not anywhere near a socialist, and because of that I don't know many people.
Back when I had just took over the business that my parents started, a local "big timer" politian and business owner himself, called me up one day and offered me a deal. Had I taken that deal, I could have retired much much earlier. He was a local person who was well recieved by the people. well known, well liked. I was just coming up. Young. Strong headed. (still am). Many many times I think what would have happened if I had taken the offer. Could I have made a difference? Then I look around, and the more I see, the more convinced I am that I would not have. BUT if I had taken the offer, I would be retiring about now.
Same with the insurance company that called me repeatedly to get my company onboard. Long story short. I had a glass business, we did auto glass...Lets say I charged the average walk in customer 100 for a part installed.....if I ran it through the insurance claims dept I would have been paid 250 for the same part. I declined their offer. No, I do not regret it. I paid premiums to that company for several years, and every year my premuims went up. No accidents, violations etc. Clean driving record. .....It is no wonder why many of the politians are getting grey headed. It's lack of sleep. If I had taken the insurance companys offer, I would have a lot more grey. I like sleeping. Its healthy for you.
Good day to you neighbor. Hope it is a happy one for you.
Here's one thing that's wrong with America--The "men behind the curtain"
MEMO: Health Insurance, Banking, Oil Industries Met With Koch, Chamber, Glenn Beck To Plot 2010 Election
by Lee Fang
In 2006, Koch Industries owner Charles Koch revealed to the Wall Street Journal’s Stephen Moore that he coordinates the funding of the conservative infrastructure of front groups, political campaigns, think tanks, media outlets and other anti-government efforts through a twice annual meeting of wealthy right-wing donors. He also confided to Moore, who is funded through several of Koch’s ventures, that his true goal is to strengthen the “culture of prosperity” by eliminating “90%” of all laws and government regulations. Although it is difficult to quantify the exact amount Koch alone has funneled to right-wing fronts, some studies have pointed toward $50 million he has given alone to anti-environmental groups. Recently, fronts funded by Charles and his brother David have received scrutiny because they have played a pivotal role in the organizing of the anti-Obama Tea Parties and the promotion of virulent far right lawmakers like Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC). (David Koch praised DeMint and gave him a “Washington Award” shortly after the senator promised to “break” Obama by making health reform his “Waterloo.”)
While the Koch brothers — each worth over $21.5 billion — have certainly underwritten much of the right, their hidden coordination with other big business money has gone largely unnoticed. ThinkProgress has obtained a memo outlining the details of the last Koch gathering held in June of this year. The memo, along with an attendee list of about 210 people, shows the titans of industry — from health insurance companies, oil executives, Wall Street investors, and real estate tycoons — working together with conservative journalists and Republican operatives to plan the 2010 election, as well as ongoing conservative efforts through 2012. According to the memo, David Chavern, the number two at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Fox News hate-talker Glenn Beck also met with these representatives of the corporate elite. In an election season with the most undisclosed secret corporate giving since the Watergate-era, the memo sheds light on the symbiotic relationship between extremely profitable, multi-billion dollar corporations and much of the conservative infrastructure. The memo describes the prospective corporate donors as “investors,” and it makes clear that many of the Republican operatives managing shadowy, undisclosed fronts running attack ads against Democrats were involved in the Koch’s election-planning event:
Read the rest of the article here:
Beck is a front for Koch, there to assist him in turning back the 2008 election.
I just read all of this Ralph, thanks for the info, going back to study this some more actualy, good work sir.
But I have to wounder, who the h..l are they gonna run then? who would even have answers? England about to go to economic caos, france is in peril, have not heard about germany lately, italy can not be faring much better. Iran with the bomb possible, and Isreal still building settelments?
The EU acting like an economic strong arm, and here we are going bankrupt in our left hand and firing bulletts with our right? and where are we? screaming at health care and Islamic Mosque's
who in the H... has any answers to this?
the next guy will not have a solution either.
I've read through this thread with a lot of interest. It's good to read intelligent debate for once.
Personally I'm not as pessimistic as most here. There is an unstoppable movement towards the dignity of mankind that reactionary forces can only delay. East Berlin didn't fall because of those who fled the country, it fell because of those who stayed. They were marching in the streets and their slogan was "We stay here" When Gorbachev was implementing Perestroika and the hardliners kidnapped him, Boris Yeltsin gathered the people together and it was ordinary soldiers who refused to turn on their own people, so the coup failed.
There was a time when the right wing believed that government should be run exclusively by "Well educated men of good breeding" (Aristocracy) They held that women were too emotional to be entrusted with the vote and that only property owners should have a vote.
Compared to 200 years ago the tea party of today would be Whigs, dangerous radicals of the left hell bent on destroying the fabric of society.
The movement may be slow at times and sometimes we seem to move backwards a step or two, but ultimately we all will fight for a better world for our children. My vote is always for Hope.
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