Web-site/URL: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101226/ap_ … _what_next
So more people are copying JOHN MCCAIN'S "Complete the danged fence" mentality (Web-site/URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lwusMxiHc). We're becoming LESS tolerant and this is alarming
Enforcing our immigration law is "less tolerant"?
Only in the mind of a liberal....
You can write a law outlawing kissing.
That doesn't make kissing wrong.
Um, dude? Kissing isn't against the law. However entering our country without proper documentation is.
What part of the word "illegal" do you not get?
Illegal = intolerance??
We should be tolerant and accepting of those who enter our country LEGALLY.
We tolerate plenty of illegality here! Just so long as the right people are doing it, we don't care.
We only always go after the little fish. The big sharks swim free....illegal or not.
Torture was illegal, Wire-tapping without a warrant was illegal....and?
Say it with me.....SO? Who cares....USA USA USA
Shoot--if you let the big important people do illegal things...why you going to pick on the little illegals?
Legality applies to all. No one is against the law. Constitution over criminals!
As long as there is anarchy in the top tiers, the law means nothing.
It's just another means of controlling the underclasses while the uppers have a field day.
Illegal immigrants shouldn't even be allowed here. They don't pay the taxes we do but still get the benefits. Still think it's intolerant? Go work in a factory and see for yourself.
More legislation? more walls? put more national guard or other military on patrolling the border?
That is all BS!
All that is needed, is to have the immigration and naturalization service enforce the laws of the land, which is their job!
This can be accomplished by having all employers, send the photograph, copies of green card, and social security number of the applicant in for verification of legality, prior to hiring.
If a business or corporation is found guilty of hiring anyone that has not passed this scrutiny, FINE them $50,000.00 per head. That would stop the illegals in their tracks.
Don't kid yourselves, congress is in bed with corporate America.
That's why this has not been done.
"Don't kid yourselves, congress is in bed with corporate America.
That's why this has not been done."
Illegality at the top. But we only want to go after the bottom.
Leave it to lovemychris to inject her wealth envy blatherings into something as simple as enforcing immigration law.....
The DHS under Obama is doing more deportations than happened under Bush. During fiscal year 2009, the first full fiscal year of Obama’s presidency, 387,790 immigrants were deported — almost 100,000 more during the last full fiscal year of the Bush presidency.
That''s a fraction of the estimated 10 million undocumented in this country - but the conservative estimate of deporting all illegals is 80 billion - and in fact could cost many times that amount. Who's going to pay for that?
Republicans choke at apying extended unemployment for millions of Americans. Are they willing to raise taxes for this? Whose taxes and how much?
Chris raises a valid point. Rather than play whak-a-mole chasing everyone with olive skin and forcing them to prove citizenship, cut off the employment on the US side. There's plenty of evidence that major companies are recruiting and hiring (through proxy companies) illegals to do manual labor. A fair and required verification system is much more cost-effective way of discouraging people from migrating to the US.
But it's not as much fun as wholesale racial persecution.
Doug, in a rare moment, I agree with you. If we cut off the reason they come here, the tide will at least somewhat be stemmed.
However, I am also still completely in favor of immediate deportation of anyone discovered breaking our immigration law.
And yes, it is quite simple...either come here legally or be sent home.
Who is giving the illegals a reason to come here in the first place?
Why are they coming, if not for jobs? Or I should say slave labor. Minus the whipping post and "ownership".
Do not speak for me. I do not envy the wealthy---I am furious at the special treatment they get in this country!
If you do not see who has been GIVEN the golden ring, and who has been shafted....you are blind, or lieing.
Do you know, I dated a contractor once, and he wrote off everything on his taxes. Bought his son a new SUV...business expense. New wood for flooring, which happened to make it onto his floor...business expense. Cabinets, tools, equipment....all write-offs. LEGAL.
Buffet pays tax at 12%...he's admitting it, so it must be quite easy and common to do.
Bush tax give-aways, now renewed....meanwhile, the person slaving with 2 jobs is unable to make ends meet. Wake up. It's not envy, it's anger.
Oh,, so the wealthy were GIVEN the golden ring. They didn't like WORK for it or EARN it or anything, right?
The achievers should get tax breaks. You reward achievement, you don't punish it.
I'm not sure what world Buffet is in, but it is common knowledge that the more money you make, the more money you pay in taxes.
The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 percent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. And yet you think they should be socked for more?
Exactly how much of someone else's income do you believe you are entitled to?
And they should be prosecuted for hiring illegals, right? Because the money they make from illegal labor is illegal, right? Procedes of crime and able to be confiscated?
It also might be a more effective first line of defense. So long as relatively high paying work is available, people will try to come over to get it. But right now we have US politicians hiring contractors that hire illegals--then saying that have no culpability.
Agreed. However you still have to deport illegals. To say that you can go after the enabler with out going after the offender is at best an incomplete response to the situation. Even still one offender = one crime. One enabler = many crimes. The punishment to corporations that evade taxes or break immigration law by hiring illegals should be VERY harsh.
From a fellow American:
"The Wealthy, the top 10%, pay 55% of the taxes, but control 80% of the wealth. The top 2% pay 24% of the taxes but have 60% of the wealth. I paid income tax last year, my family earned $44k. The bottom 90% are paying the taxes for the wealth the top 10% enjoys.
And these numbers are from the IRS themselves ."
"You enjoy the services paid for by taxes, it enables you to gain wealth. You enjoy the police, fire, and court protections given by our taxed good. How many contracts do those making $15k a year engage in? How many do you? Those who earn the most, engage the system the most due to the nature of their wealth. This requires payment, to enjoy those services. That means taxes. You try and portray yourself a victim, I am sick and tired of 70% of my tax bill going to paying for services that you enjoy! Nobody is seeking charity, we are seeking pairity. If you utilize the system, you pay for it. As you utilize it more than those who make less, you must pay in proportion to that utilization."
Another fellow American:
"They paid so much in income taxes BECAUSE they made so much money.
Ya know, higher income, higher taxes???
Now if you look at the percentage of income a working class person and a rich person pay and what is left over for the person to live on, THEN maybe you will see what we see.
A man making a small salary may pay less income tax, but he has much less left over to spend at the same time.
And there ARE rich people who openly tell us that is is quite fair for them to pay more taxes...th ey would still have more than plenty left over. ."
Same thing I've been saying.
Poor pay FICA, which is more a percentage of your income than state and fed combined.
Middle pay FICA, state and federal.
Incomes over $103,000 pay state and federal, no FICA.
So, as a percentage of what they have, rich pay less than anyone. Middle takes the biggest hit. Poor pay more of what they earn than the rich.
Like that fellow American said: PARITY!
We (the employees) pay into FICA about 6% of our gross up to $106,800. The employer also pays a percentage. Investment income is not taxed under FICA but is still taxed as income. When a person receives SS or disability, they only collect based on the amount that was put in so wealthy or not, we all collect based on what was put in over our working years.
"Who is giving the illegals a reason to come here in the first place?"
Its the rich.
I thought they were moving jobs to China?
Thats a loooooooooong way to go.
Answer it yourself then, why do they come here?
To get on welfare? How can they do that, if they are not citizens? They can't.
They come here for the jobs that can go under the radar. The jobs the owners would rather not put on the books.
They act out of desperation. What's business doing it for?
They steal Social Security numbers all day everyday.
Thats how they get jobs and welfare.
You live in a part of the country obviously untouched by illegal immigration or you would know this.
The truth is you do know this, you are ok with it because you think they will be able to vote soon and will elect the people you want elected.
Stand up for your country for once.
Oh are you ever wrong! I live on Cape Cod...the home of immigrant workers. My boss hires them every summer. Contracts out to an agency, with foreign students--who come here and work for the summer.
He has no need for Americans anymore.
They are not illegal though, they are quite legal. And there are many way to turn that status into permanent residency.
In fact, the workers go through phases too, I've noticed.
First it was Jamaicans, and S. Americans.
Now, it seems to be a lot of people from Nepal and Eastern Europe.
No more need for American students home on vacation....he contracts out!
Good for him, USED to be good for them--only ones hurt by it are American workers.
How's that for patriotic?
"only ones hurt by it are American workers.
How's that for patriotic?"
You are the one calling people racist for wanting the illegals gone and then complaining that they get hired.
Would you mind picking a side and then stay there please?
"You are the one calling people racist for wanting the illegals gone"---that is a lie. I have never uttered those words.
You are assuming things about me because you think you know me. You don't.
I actually have very torn feelings on this issue. My own grandfather stowed over here on a boat when he was 16. He had a sponsor once he got here...but he did not get here legally.--So I certainly understand the desperation to come here.
On the other hand, I work with people from other countries, and I have seen some real insulting attitudes towards Americans.
How we're lazy, stupid, spoiled. How they take all the jobs available because they have no families to worry about here...they have all the time in the world only to work. And they make sure the employers know it.
2 years ago, an American woman lost her job because my boss hired too many foreign students....so he gave the foreign girl the American woman's job!
And he now does not even bother to hire Americans....why should he? He can contract out, and he gets guarenteed workers...they get guarenteed jobs.
But, at this time and with what is going on here, I think it's a travesty to hire foreigners when Americans are desperate for work.
And when I hear my fellow worker tell me he has made his family Rich in his home country, while Americans cannot find a job....it bothers me...a lot.
It's now a race to the bottom. Thanks to Mexican gvt, NAFTA and US corporations/gvt complicity.
"Who is giving the illegals a reason to come here in the first place?"
The Mexican Government.
Definately! Their gvt doesn't give a sh*t about them, just as Republicans here don't give a sh*t about poor Americans.
That still does not absolve business owners from breaking the law, now does it?
They are taking advantage of those people as much as the Mexican gvt is throwing them away.
And American workers lose on both counts.
On all counts actually.
Send the jobs overseas, and the jobs that are left here, they give to workers from other countries.
That is no way to run a country.
"And American workers lose on both counts."
Thats exactly right.
So why do you favor the illegal immigrant?
It seems to me that the illegal immigrant is the pawn not the problem. The best way to solve an unwanted movement cause by supply and demand is to address the supply (problem in Mexico) and or the demand (hiring of illegals) at least as stenuously as the movement (fence etc).
If they are a pawn then it is of their own choosing, they don't have to be here.
When is comes to people trying to feed their children, I am sympathetic to them reaching for a decent wage for a job that requires hard physical labor. These are the kind of workers the economy would see a net benefit from if they were legal and taxed.
As such I don't think the working illegal is the part of the problem that is the biggest issue or best point of attack. That is not to say it is a good thing per se. But the system should be able to bring in productive workers and take away the 'excuse' that legal immigration is not a real option for most working class people.
There should also be some common sense focussing on expelling criminals and the unemployed. Not, as a case of a colleague of mine, a wife of a citizen and mother and small business owner woth a dozen employees who has lived here since her father brought her over at the age of 13 (recently extradited, hearing pending).
I'm not pointing this remark at anyone in particular. Most of the defenders of illegals are under the impression that they are underpaid. They are not underpaid. Landscapers and construction workers receive about 10. average per hour or more. They can work 50 or more hours a week, just like many Americans do. They will take home $400-600. pre-tax (untaxed) dollars which is the equivilent of $500-800 taxed dollars. They get no benefits. Neither do I. They often live 4 to an apartment if they're single so living expenses are very low. They are hardworking. So am I. If they have family here, it's enough to support a family. Part of the problem in mid-sized and smaller companies hiring illegals is that they are taxed to death. If their employees are off the books, the employee actually makes about the same as a taxed employee but the employer saves on taxes and paperwork.
Most large corporations are not hiring illegals, contrary to popular belief. They have large staffs of attorneys and strict employee policys and guidelines complete with pc standards, non-disclosure clauses, etc. Illegals are not part of the mix there. That's not to say they don't know every loophole in the tax code.
Empathizing with those who come here for a better life is good. Breaking laws at the expense of the collective (the country, for those of you who live in Rio Vista) is not.
Who said I favor illegal immigration? I'm saying the egg came first....JOBS were here for them, so they came.
Business will do anything to make a buck that cost a dime.
THEY are the problem.
And NAFTA--that is a BIG part of it too.....and geuss who wins on both?
Well, my my my my MY....it just never ends does it?
And they have the nerve to call ME un-American cause I question these things....while the PERPS are being ignored, and laughing all the way to the bank.
SCAM. On US.
lmc - who do you see as the perp in NAFTA?
"Business will do anything to make a buck that cost a dime...."
Um, I certainly hope so. I worked as a musician for years and sold thousands of my CDs, and I can guarantee you were marked up considerably from what it cost to produce them.
No business owner with half a brain would sell his product just for what it cost to produce it....
Hate to break your heart LMC, but the jobs do not belong to Americans or the immigrants, they belong to the COMPANIES and they have complete freedom to place those jobs wherever they see fit.
If it is cheaper to do business in China, then they go to China. Perhaps when the oppressive imperial government makes it more cost effective tfor them to do business at home, they will come back here...
It's not just the government, unions have done a good job of pricing the union worker out of a job.
Why don't they move to China then?
Make some space for people who care about America.
"Make some space for people who care about America"
I've addressed the flaws of "keep jobs in America" ideology.
It boils down, pretty much, to racism.
I don't see how anyone can be pro-let-immigrants-come-to-our-country, but also be anti-jobs-created-overseas...
it makes no sense.
Exactly how much of middleclass America's income do you think the wealthy are entitled to?
The so-called achievers should get the tax breaks? Get serious!
These corporate "achievers", hire these cheap illegal workers, usually furnish no insurance and lay off American workers!
This accomplishes destroying their own markets. It also puts more people on welfare and unemployment, adding to the expense of all American's. We also absorb the healthcare costs of these illegals, that corporations avoid so they can increase their bottom line. They cry about people being on the dole, when their greed put many of those people in that position.
Then, when they succeed at driving America's middleclass into recession, they cry for bailouts, or other favorable legislation that will satisfy their greed.
Wealth can disappear in a very short time. If we do not start solving the problems laid on the backs of the average American's, The wealthy will not have much of a market left to sell to! That's ok. They can leave the debt they helped build through hiring illegals, on the backs of their children and grandchildren.
Try getting government out of the business of corporations, stop putting the squeeze on them with unnecessary taxes and fees, and maybe you'll see a return of more jobs to American shores.
Enforce immigration laws and that will mean more jobs for American citizens.
Or does that make too much sense?
BillyDRitchie, This does (not make enough) sense to me.
How about keeping the corporate lobbyists out of the halls of congress?
It's the lobbyists that sway our politicians with reelection campaign contributions, in order to get legislation passed that will satisfy their greed.
You say enforcing immigration laws will bring back jobs. Please explain how you would enforce these laws, with the lobbyists being allowed to run rampant in government?
I do agree with you that lobbyists should be kept at arm's length, but as long as politicians (on both sides) stand to gain something, they will be entertaining them....
So how can government stay our of the business of corporations, when it is lobbyists that keep soliciting the congress?
I still would like to know how you would enforce these immigration laws? Keep in mind, that this nation and most other nations operate under central banks, and fractional banking debt monetary systems.
Lobbyists are not the problem. The morality and decision making of the politician is the problem. If a large company sends a lobbyist to DC to extole the agenda of the company with the intent to persuade the politician to vote a certain way in exchange for a contribution, it is up to the politician to be honest and not be swayed by money.
But it is a great way to increase profits. Which is what this country has become. A playing field for big money to make more money.
Nation be damned. Just don't EVER say the word "patriotic'. I may throw up.
Not to offend you LMC, but as of this moment I am hard at work to make as much money as I possibly can.
Sorry if that offends (well, not really...)
profits are good.
Illegals are good.
The Law is the problem.
Had the Naturalization and Immigration Service been doing its job adequately over the last decades, there would be a great deal less of an illegal immigration issue. The federal government turned its head for a very long time over the ineptness of the department charged with ensuring that immigrants who entered our nation did so through legal means. I haven't read that any heads rolled over the protracted under-functioning of this government service. How do we make sure the right people are held accountable?
Entering through legal means is much more difficult than many people reaslise, and much more expensive. I qualified to *apply* for a green card about a year ago, after 9 years and about $4000 in direct costs, as a non-criminal who was legally employed in the US the whole time.
Do you feel like you have gotten a good deal? Was it worth the expense?
Certainly. But the US economy needs agricultural laborers and slaughterhouse workers who do not have the kind of resources I do. These are vital and adequately paid jobs that stand largely empty when not filled by immigrants--people who don't have thousands of dollars in disposable income.
We have plenty people to work those jobs. The shortage is of the willing. At some point unemployment has to end. At some point the hand outs end. At that point the unwilling become willing.
The business owner doesn't really care if they are unable or unwilling if they are un-there. Nor is s/he keen on having the kind of workers who turn up only when starvation is setting in. They don't tend to be hard and honest workers. I, frankly, am sympathetic with them wanting legal access to people willing to work hard.
Doesn't agribusiness use dayworkers? Legal to cross during the work week but then must go back when not working? But don't get me started on agribusiness, that which is indirectly killing us with their pesticides and directly killing farm workers with same, not to mention groundwater, streams, wildlife and ecosystems..
Then the system is broken and needs to be fixed. It shouldn't be cost-prohibitive for people to emigrate to the U.S.
LLW, It shouldn't be cost prohibitive for people to live in their country of origin. Not only does the U.S. allow a way for legal immigration, but the influx of illegals is rampant. Top that off with the fact, that a multitude of our one-time businesses have relocated to other countries. How much of our manufacturing base can we afford to lose? How much purchasing power can we afford to lose?
How much further can we be downsized and/or outsourced? How many more cuts in wages, hours and/or benefits can we absorb?
How much more debt can we accumulate before we go belly up as a nation? Remember, the costs of all this, goes onto the credit card of the U.S. citizenry. We adults have allowed the deficit spending to go on until we are upside down on our indebtedness and are now mortgaging our children's and grandchildren's futures.
When do we reach a point where the actions that need to be taken in order to keep this broken system going, are put into action, we are destroying our markets because of the inability of our people to afford the cost of living? Who will fix this system?
When will the repairs or change start?
We have to stop being the sugar daddy to other nations and start fixing our own problems.
"I saw the Statue of Liberty. And I said to myself, 'Lady, you're such a beautiful! [sic] You opened your arms and you get all the foreigners here. Give me a chance to prove that I am worth it, to do something, to be someone in America.' And always that statue was on my mind." (Words of a Greek immigrant as he pulled into the harbor.) This is the kind of immigrant we used to get. The builders of a nation. Now we get indifference. Just coming to earn a buck and send it home. Not 'building' a nation.
And back to Jerryl:
"Don't kid yourselves, congress is in bed with corporate America.
That's why this has not been done."
But, the Obama administration is trying though....and I think they have their heads on the right way. They go after the BUSINESSES that are doing this, deport illegals, and they also support the Dream Act.
They are on the right track, IMO.
The DREAM Act rewards illegals, contrary to what you are saying. It's heart is in the right place, but in essence, it steals from taxpayers as surely as if they took it right out of your pocket. Oh, wait, they are taking it right out of your pocket.
I travel a lot to different countries before and I noticed that US has a very strict entry laws, - visa is hard to get comparing to most European countries, The legal entry points like airports are very strict but not at the border
I think the rate of those coming to the US as tourist and then going illegal is higher than other European countries. US is a magnet to people because of perceived opportunity.
Migration whether internal or international is as old as history. It became a problem because of sense of problem arising from the receiving countries failure to monitor it. Of course there are problem arising like labor displacements at the receiving country and integration to the new culture.
A well placed security at the border (Mexicans plus other Latin American illegals composed of 60 plus percent of all the illegals) could be in placed and legal accommodation for those illegals already in the country. (so easy to say but difficult to implement as there are issues like family issues - children are born here while parents are illegals)
I can see there is a problem in these regards because of some failure of the system to track down illegal immigrants through the business enterprises who want cheap labor.
Take my tax money and put up a double electric fence, skyboxes every 100 yards, double border patrol, send out National Guard, round up all illegals who do not have viable work and deport them by large busloads, round up all working illegals and force them, yes force them to apply for citizenship with all accompanying fees, ok discounted temporarily, or they and their families go back, too. No DREAM Act. Children of illegals who pass aforementioned citizenship qualifications are entitled to the same college I get, they pay their way, get financial aid, scholarships if they are talented, whatever. And as former illegals, they are on a five year probation. Taxes are audited every year, work status, etc. That's why, if they pass the citizenship test, they get to stay even if they lose their jobs.
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