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Kucinich Calls For Obama Impeachment!

  1. lady_love158 profile image61
    lady_love158posted 5 years ago

    http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/304882

    Lol! I hate liberalism, but I respect Kucinich! At least he's consistent and not afraid to admit what he believes in. The rest of the dems will no doubt ignore him and point to Bush claiming he should be impeacged first... Hypocrites! !!

    1. bgamall profile image85
      bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      While Kucinich is right about the Fed and I like him, Europe wanted this action against Gaddafi.

      America is just one of many and Obama didn't want to do this until the Arab League wanted it.

      Obama doesn't want to be on the wrong side of revolution. We supported the Shah of Iran and look where that took us?

      How many Irans do you want Lady?

      Are you capable of thinking these things out?

      I wonder.

      The war in Iraq was an illegal oil war. I don't think we are out to steal Libyan oil. Big difference.

      1. Evan G Rogers profile image82
        Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Obama declared war against a foreign country  - he SHOULD be thrown in Jail, not impeached.

        Bush did the same thing, so did Clinton.

        So did... how many other presidents?

        Read the constitution. Nuff said.

        1. bgamall profile image85
          bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There is a difference. This action is to protect the people who were going to be slaughtered. The other was simply to steal oil. Big difference.

          1. lady_love158 profile image61
            lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Lol! What nonsense!! Where's the oil?? Who got the contracts in Iraq? Oh and WHO relies on Libyan oil???

            1. bgamall profile image85
              bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I already told you, if you would take the time to read my hub on Bush, that long term reserves is what they wanted.

              Condi Rice, as I keep telling you, was a director of Chevron Oil. The CEO of Chevron in 1998 stated he wanted Iraq oil reserves. Condi Rice was not George Bush's main advisor for nothing.

              They even renamed the tanker that was once named after Rice, so that it wouldn't be too obvious what they were doing.

              1. lady_love158 profile image61
                lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                http://www.iraq-enterprise.com/page1.cfm?ser=2757

                Sure the American oil companies got something but most contracts went to China Russia and aeuropean companies... so much for theory!

                1. bgamall profile image85
                  bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  That too was a Bush promise. Don't you remember the reports on the news that Bush would share contracts with countries that did not interfere with US actions in Iraq?

                  1. lady_love158 profile image61
                    lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Lol! So we went to Iraq for oil but promised it away??? You lefties never make any sense!!

          2. Evan G Rogers profile image82
            Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            There is no difference. Our PRESIDENT broke the LAW.

            enough said.

            If we cared that much, then let the part of the government that was designed to declare war actually do so instead of just one wing-nut jerk-wad who thinks he's the new Julius Caesar.

            "The Congress shall have Power...To declare War".

            My argument is air-tight. Your sophistry won't work.

            1. bgamall profile image85
              bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Congress has the power to declare war, which is why Obama will hand this off to the UN, in a few days. One could say that the air blockade is not war, but rather is a police action to prevent many innocent people from being killed.

              1. readytoescape profile image60
                readytoescapeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                One could say it, but believing it would be a self-admission of empty-headedness or just blindly misguided.

                This was clearly an Act of War.

                Since there was no eminent threat to the US only Congress can sanction these type of Military action.

                1. bgamall profile image85
                  bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't think congress had much to say about the Bush 1 Panama invasion or that island Granada that Reagan invaded. Oh, I forgot, they were Republicans so no big deal.  http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p/25 … Libya.aspx

                  1. readytoescape profile image60
                    readytoescapeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Gee I’m not sure those examples are quite the same.

                    As I recall did Reagan not react to appeals of assistance made by The Organization of Eastern Caribbean States as well as Jamaica and Barbados in response to a communistic military coup in Granada and Communist expansion in The Caribbean? Wasn’t this coup considered organized and facilitated by Fidel Castro. Wasn’t the Cuban Military involved as well as were military advisors from Soviet Union, East Germany, Bulgaria and Libya? Didn’t this action reestablish a free Parliamentarian Government that is still in effect today? Did Reagan not also  rescue American Students being held by “rebels” in a medical school?
                     

                    Wasn’t the Mission of the Panama Invasion ordered by Bush to capture Noriaga, cut off the flow of illegal drugs into the US and depose a dictator that disregarded Panamanian elections after he lost? Didn’t Noriega threaten to break the Torrios-Carter treaties denying the use of the Panama Canal? Didn’t Bush finally make the decision to go in only after American Servicemen were murdered and brutalized and 35,000 other Americans in Panama were at risk? Did the events leading up to the Invasion take place while Congress was out of session? Didn’t the Congress reconvene in January and condone the action? 

                    Oddly by comparison I don’t recall the use of massive airpower in either of these invasions or the destruction of the command and control structure. Nor were these attacks on a sovereign nation where no American lives or interests were at risk. Nor could these actions ultimately be detrimental to an entire region and our interests as this one more than likely will be.

          3. JON EWALL profile image45
            JON EWALLposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            HUBBERS
            Let's not forget President Kennedy and the '' Bay of Pigs'', when Castro slaughtered the rebels attacking Cuba. Kennedy promised US air power cover to the rebels. Air power never showed up.
            Obama seems to believe that he is the ruler of the world, advocates revolution and directs removal of dictators.
            The US  has no business interfering in Libya!

            bgamall
            How many barrels of oil is the US getting from Iraq? Obama has been in office 2 years, he promised to end the wars if elected, all talk as usual.

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Dang! I coulda told him Obama needed impeached long before now!  And coulda even told him Obama should've never been given the White House.
      Do you think he really is sincere, or maybe just trying to score points himself with the opposition?

      Kinda like McCain and some Republicans may be doing right now as they agree with Obama's involvement in Libya.


      Somehow, with all the blurring of Party lines that I see going on these days, I keep hearing the part of a refrain of a song goin' through my head...."they're all wasted"!  haha
      Indeed, I'm not sure any of them know what the laws even are, nor what is right and wrong anymore.    That can be chalked up to liberalism running rough-shod over us all.

    3. Flightkeeper profile image79
      Flightkeeperposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Kucinich is consistent.  There are questions whether Shiny had the authority to join the others in the UN regarding the no go airspace effort against a country who has not attacked or threatened us.  Again, Shiny's action raises concerns.  It never occurred to him to even discuss this with Congress.  As long as the UN gave it a green light that was enough for him.  He really has no respect for our government.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah.  I think, honestly, he sees himself as future President of the world or something!  He has conquered America, and now he's trying to score points with the rest of the world.

        1. Flightkeeper profile image79
          Flightkeeperposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I don't think the rest of the world is ready to have him yet.  They still don't want a doormat as president of the world, no matter how pretty he talks.

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Maybe so.  But I don't see him as a doormat.  I think he's quite effective at instigating riots and unrest in the name of civil rights.  He should go to all those Muslim countries and fight for their rights in person.   But then, how could he leave dear America which might someday actually be his enemy when he buddies up to the radicals there?

    4. DTR0005 profile image85
      DTR0005posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Lady Love,
      Did you read the last paragraph of the article?

  2. BillyDRitchie profile image59
    BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago

    I would give more credence to this, were it not for the fact that Kucinich is a barking moonbat.

    Obama may be incompetent, but incompetence does not rise to the level of high crimes or misdemeanors...

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      BillyDRitchie:"Kucinich is a barking moonbat."
      LaLo:"I respect Kucinich!"

      Jeff: lol

      1. lady_love158 profile image61
        lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Do you actually have a point other than conservatives can disagree?

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well, there's the one that you missed, but... smile

  3. readytoescape profile image60
    readytoescapeposted 5 years ago

    It’s really funny though, I mean really, what do Liberals really want? They get the Anointed One so they can shape Utopia and now they want him out because he actually did something. It may be ill-advised, he may have been duped, but at least he did something. But they’re angry because he did it without permission. Funny Stuff. I had quite a bit of laughter with my morning coffee.

    1. Hugh Williamson profile image88
      Hugh Williamsonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It would be quite funny if it except that this showcases the paralysis in Washington, as far as the pols. cooperating and fixing what's wrong. As long as partisan sniping is the priority there will be little progress made on addressing the economy, the debt, mid east disengagement, the nuclear power issue, etc, etc.

      The office holders in Washington and in individual States were elected to solve problems but they insist on waiting for their side to win on every point, then they say they will act. The result is a lot of blame, refusal to compromise and no action.

      Don't listen to the excuses. Don't listen to the blame placing. Vote 'em out.

      1. readytoescape profile image60
        readytoescapeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The idiocy of the Political Parties is a large part of the Joke. Until these elected officials are forced to recognize that they are our servants and not our masters the Joke on the American People will continue.

        Not until the American voter ignores the Political Action Committees, Agenda driven connivances, turns away from the ignorance of apathy and entitlement, learns and understands the intent of our Constitution defining our Republic and then forces it to be adhered too by striping the federal government of is assumed power and returning it to the states will the joke on us be over.

      2. 70
        logic,commonsenseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        and keep voting them out until they buy a clue or we get the right people in!

  4. Hugh Williamson profile image88
    Hugh Williamsonposted 5 years ago

    According to the latest PEW Poll, it looks like people aren't exactly thrilled with either party. Will there be a third party candidate?

    The last big-impact third party candidate, Ross Perot, ran on the platform of -- guess what -- ending deficit spending.

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1932/gop-lo … oesnt-gain

    1. lady_love158 profile image61
      lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That subject is worthy of it's own thread. I think all the independents wishing for a third party have learned the hard way that wont be the way to fix what's wrong with government. Instead we have to change the platform of the current party and that is what's happening with the rise of the Tea Party. Institutional republicans will be replaced with freshman Tea Party candidates reflecting the views of most Americans. The democrats.are finished! They gave been co- opted by socialists and this us clearly evident to most of us.

      1. Hugh Williamson profile image88
        Hugh Williamsonposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'd say the referenced poll shows that BOTH parties are losing their robotic followers and people no longer like having to hold their nose and vote for the less-worse candidate.

        I'm just hoping that things have gotten serious enough that the next election will be decided by well informed voters who can think independently.

        1. bgamall profile image85
          bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          It won't matter. The banksters are in charge, and they try to divide us by young and old, public employees versus private, etc.

          They have a plan to keep us quarreling with one another while they figure out how to blow bubbles to make themselves more money.

  5. readytoescape profile image60
    readytoescapeposted 5 years ago

    Now I say since we are only going to be in it for just a few days lets just be mercenary about the whole thing and send the French a bill.

    One F-18                 - $   32,000,000.00
    Fuel / Propulsion            - $   23,000,000.00
    124 Tomahawks                     - $   69,440,000.00
    7 days Command & Control        - $ 100,000,000.00
    War Services Parts & Labor        - $ 250,000,000.00
    Sub total                 - $ 474,440,000.00

    MU @ 15%                - $   71,166,000.00
    Profit @ 10%                - $   54,560,666.00

    Total Due For War Services Rendered this week - $600,166,666.00

    Now this could be the way to take care of the debt. Knock off a few more Muslim countries for humanitarian reasons and we might not even have to pay income tax.

    1. lady_love158 profile image61
      lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sure some companies may profit but the nation will only sink further in debt.

      1. bgamall profile image85
        bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Then lets get out of Afghanistan before the pipeline to Bush 1 and Halliburton oil investments in the Caspian Sea is finished.

        BTW, Afghanistan was a war for oil, so it was a war crime all the way. Saving these people from death and being on the right side of the revolution to avoid another Iran is noble although it may not work.

        1. lady_love158 profile image61
          lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Afghanistan was for oil??? Lol! I guess you missed 9/11!

          Since when is it the responsibility of the US to save people in other countries from death persecution or injustice? Where is that in the constitution? We have no business being there but if the rest of the world wants us to take out Kadaffy then we should be compensated for it! Maybe well do it for their oil? Why not? Why should we use ours and pollute our environment when we can do it elsewhere! Maybe we should just kill them all and take their oil? Why not? That would serve our interest right? After all we do have the power so who could stop us? Yes I think that's a good idea! Let's mobilize evil destructive exploitive America and just take what we want! We shouldn't have to pay a lot for gas or be uncomfortable.

  6. lady_love158 profile image61
    lady_love158posted 5 years ago

    Just heard an interview with Kucinich and I agree with him!! Obama must follow the constitution!!

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Indeed.
      But ain't nobody gonna make him, I guarantee it.  Or almost guarantee it anyway.
      Even another Democrat on Fox News said the call for impeachment was "ridiculous" or "ludicrous", whatever.   And the most famous Republicans are apparently too politically-correct to take the ball and run with it and finally oust the Usurper.
      They're all playing games with the American people's lives and livelihood.   I think I'm becoming very disgusted with politicians in general.   But we must have government.  So, the only recourse seems to be to kick out the libs from both Parties in the next Election.......
      and I would probably actually say the Tea Party is good, except for the fact that it's not really supposed to be a Party at all, yet is leaning that way.......there's already a "Tea Party Caucus" in Congress, and what the heck will they do?   Will they really represent the thousands of people who picketed and spent their hard-earned money on fighting for conservatism?
      So, maybe it will take another "tea party" to keep the "Tea Party" from becoming just another heavy-handed, power-grabbing political Party....

    2. bgamall profile image85
      bgamallposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Reagan didn't in Grenada. Oh, did you forget? Bush 1 didn't in Panama. One could say those wars were to protect lives, I don't know. But they were not wars that relied on congressional approval.

      Lady, you are disengenuous! Continually!

      1. lady_love158 profile image61
        lady_love158posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Once again the left wants to justify bad behaviour with other bad behaviour. Libya isn't comprable to your examples though I conceed the congress gas been rendered irrelevant by the war powers act which itself is likely unconstitutional. And who brought us the war powers act?? Progressive liberals intent on the destruction of America!

  7. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    Kucinich says we need to put the Constitution over political parties.
    Well, when he offered 38 articles of Impeachment against Bushco, the House and Senate were Republican controlled.
    Where were the hearings?
    Did they put the Constitution first?

    No, they did not.
    If they agree to hearings now, it will only be because Obama is a Democrat, nothing at all to do with the Constitution.

    And, since America voted Bush back in, AFTER he already hacked the constitution,I would say THEY don't care about the Constitution either!

    Only when it suits their political/religious agenda.
    Otherwise, they just ignore it.
    It's a piece of convenience, if you ask me.

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      LMC,  what part of "Obama will not be impeached, nor should he be" do you not get?

      Clinton was rightfully impeached because he committed perjury.  That rises to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

      Much as it pains me to tell, you, neither Bush 43 nor Obama have done anything to warrant impeachment.

      Although I  must admit that I find the fact that such calls are coming from his own party to be laugh out loud funny as snot......

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Bush did...and that whole administration along with him.

        If you don't see it, the rest of the world does.

  8. GavNugent profile image82
    GavNugentposted 5 years ago

    As far as I'm aware, no war has been declared on Libya, the U.N. Security Council resolution doesn't call for regime change, it's simply for the protection of civilians.

    I think this situation is a nit like my country, Ireland, we constitutionally can't ever declare, or take sides in war, yet we participate in UN peacekeeping missions, just a thought.

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "Ireland, we constitutionally can't ever declare, or take sides in war,"
      Really? I had no idea.

      1. superwags profile image83
        superwagsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Not officially, but they do and have. They tactically supported the allies during the second world war.

        Ireland's a tiny country - only a population of 4 million. They only have about 10,000 active personel!

  9. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    Thinking is not allowed when your goal is to destroy the president.

    It's all about stirring up hatred and anger...pushing those buttons.

    You DO know Obama is Satan, right?

    Otherwise, why get ALL outraged at something many pres's have down before him, and for less noble reasons?

    It's nothing to do with America and the Constitution. It's politics.

    Except for Kucinich...they're ALL full of it!

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Just curious, LMC....do you spend this much time being this angry every day?  Really?

      If you put half as much effort into doing something productive as you do into your vitriolic posts, my guess is that you would have to post all those wealth envy rants anymore.......

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        There is nothing to envy about wealthy people. They have nothing more than any of the rest of us. They are all going to die too.
        ****

        And as far as I'm concerned, this county gave the green-light for anything any president wants to do when we let Bush off.

        So, go cry in your coffee...you have 0 credibilty or moral high-ground.

        No one does.....except for my Dennis.

        1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
          BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          "Your Dennis."  Now that's funny.  You should write comedy......

          And actually, the wealthy do have more than you do.  I know that grinds your gears to hear since you think you should be given some of what they have even though you haven't earned it or anything......

  10. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    Dennis Kucinich: "If crimes were committed, we must act."

    Simple, huh?

    But ignored back in the Bush Era.

    We'll see what happens now.

    But whatever it is, it's NOTHING to do with the Constitution.--except on Kucinich's part.

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Probably because there were no crimes committed.

      If there were, the majority of the House and Senate would be thrown in the slammer as well, since they kinda, oh I don't know.....GAVE HIM THEIR FULL APPROVAL and all....

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Really? He asked them if they could torture?
        I know they claim so, but Pelosi denies it.
        Also, Bushco switched the Patriot Act on them at 3:00 am, according to a story I heard on NPR...
        Congress signed on to a Patriot Act they had already denied.

        And, he was given power to use force as a last resort. He couldn't even wait for weapons inspectors? What was the russssshhh?

        And let's not EVEN get into 9/11.
        That's WAY over the pay grade.

        1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
          BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          "Pelosi denied it"...."according to NPR"....biased much?

          And let me guess....Bush did 9/11.  Don't disappoint me now, LMC......

  11. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    Actually, NPR is not biased.It's very fair reporting. Which is why I used to enjoy talk radio...I like the partisan aspect.

    And yes, I believe people in the Bushco adm. helped plan and execute 9/11.
    I think it's obvious.

    Now your turn:
    Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down that morning?
    Manetta testified to it.

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No, it's okay, LMC, you repeatedly demonstrate that you are beyond rational thought or conversation.

      But by all means keep looking for those nasty conservative boogeymen around every corner....you certainly make for amusing reading when the workday gets boring.....

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Now your turn:
        Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down that morning?
        Manetta testified to it.

        1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
          BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          The Vice President does not have control over military matters.  Sorry about that....

  12. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago
  13. TomC35 profile image61
    TomC35posted 5 years ago

    If only this were true, we might get some good results in Washington.
    http://www.theonion.com/articles/americ … ush,18204/

  14. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE

    He did it, sorry...
    Care to explain?

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      9/11 was what it was.  If this is true, it was a bad decision, but hardly indicative that it was an inside job.

      On Dec 7, 1941, a radar operator spotted the Japanese planes coming toward Pearl Harbor.  His superior blew it off and as a result no defenses were launched.

      By your "logic" Pearl harbor was an inside job.

      I just don't buy into nutjob conspiracy theories, sorry about that.....

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Bad decision?
        I say treason.

        And yes,people also think Pearl harbor was an inside job.

        Things don't "just happen".

        And I'm glad to hear you don't think Obama is a muslim terrorist, born in Kenya, sent here to destroy America for the Muslim Brotherhood.
        Maybe you should nudge your pals about their nutjob conspiracies.

        1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
          BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, you're exactly right, I don't believe any of that.  It doesn't matter if the conspiracy theory is right or left, they're usually just as whacked.....

          1. lovemychris profile image80
            lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Actually, there are numerous books and millions of web-sites dedicated to the truth that 9/11 was an inside job.
            You just choose not to allow it in.

            Which is fine. Life is ONLY what we put our attention on, nothing more.

            1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
              BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You're right, it must be true if it's ON THE INTERNET!

              You're right, I don't allow nutjob conspiracies in my life....sorry about that.

  15. lovemychris profile image80
    lovemychrisposted 5 years ago

    No loss to me....there's a bigger force involved. NOTHING gets over-looked. Nothing.

    All I can say is, for those of you hating on Obama, just remember those people waving things out of windows of the Twin Towers as they burned.
    Watch them jumping off.
    Imagine thinking your own gvt did it....with a little help from some friends.
    Then come tell me your hatred of Obama.

    End of transmission. I now have to go cry.
    I will never forget those people, nor the after-math.

    1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
      BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, it is sad.  Tragic.  We all cried that day and many times since.

      But your blame for that horror is grotesquely misplaced......

      1. lovemychris profile image80
        lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        That is the same way I feel about yours.

        1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
          BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, heaven forbid I blame the Muslim terrorists who actually flew the planes into the towers.

          Silly me.....

          1. lovemychris profile image80
            lovemychrisposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, it is silly of you.....
            Specially since they trained here, in Fla, actually....when Jeb was gvr!
            Learning how to fly planes, but not land them, huh? Nothing odd about that.

            And, if they were such enemies, what were they doing partying on Abramoff's yacht?

            1. BillyDRitchie profile image59
              BillyDRitchieposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Um, you forget, they all had visa's so it was not considered suspicious for them to be here.

              Granted,, their behavior should have aroused suspicion, but as has been stated time and again, we were asleep at the wheel on 9/11.

              Sorry, LMC, but you don't have a tin foil hat in my size.....I just don't get into crackpot conspiracy theories, for a number of reasons that should be obvious to most rational people.....

 
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