"The freedom of speech does not extend to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre."
Oh but it does! There are consequences for yelling fire in a crowded theater but you don't get the death penalty for it. You also don't see catholics rioting when bibles are desercrated and you don't see violence erupt when the American flag is burned.
Koran burning is an expression of free speech and killing people in a riot over that can not be excused!
No, but there are penalties under the law for so doing.
Doesn't it strike you as hypocritical when you can be prosecuted for burning a bit of cloth, but defended when you burn a sacred(to some) text.
Don't even bother. It is like arguing with an 8 yr old nazi child.
I'm sure the "Satanic Bible" is "sacred" to some.
But it deserves a swift burial by fire too.
Do you know the Koran? Have you ever read it?
It has so much in common with the bible that the burning of the Koran could be claimed to be burning the Bible.
It has nothing to do with the Bible...and yes I've read it!
There is nothing there. The Muslim Religion is a false religion because they deny the Son of God.
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
So Judaism is a false religion too!
It's the first time I've ever heard that being a religion depends on accepting the Son of God!!
Oops, look what I found, a dictionary definition of religion, it must be wrong as there is not a single mention of the Son of God in it:-
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
There are many religions but only one true religion and that is Christianity.
Jesus said "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, No One comes to the Father but by me!
It's always interesting when people try to use Jesus' words, directly from the bible to support their position. Thus, failing to realize that it holds no weight in the discussion.
The most average person does not know that Jesus' teachings were twisted and distorted, before being put into the bible to begin with. Certain words had no words in English or other Languages, so those words were left out. Thus, creating different context for Jesus' metaphors and the parables he used them in.
People follow the bible like a literal guide book and anything that doesn't fit their own moral code, is then dismissed. It is the inherent contradiction and conflict, believers fail to see.
Gandhi: "I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus." (Harijan: June 3, 1937)
All Religions are True: "I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian." (Young India: January 19, 1928)
You do realize that you can't define a word, using that very word right? Wait...you obviously don't get it. What you are doing is saying the Bible is true, and everything else is false...because it says so. That is like me writing on a piece of paper that Jesus was gay, and because I wrote it, saying it was true...that it proves it was true.
Yes, but I've since seen the error of my ways, that dictionary wasn't compiled by the Son of God and therefore has no veracity
Actually, quite a bit of the Koran is the exact same text that is in the Bible...same words, same people, same sentence structure...exactly the same. Learn something before you spout off
Did you read satanic bible too?
What made you think it deserve another fate than your bible?
Any books, I repeat, any books for which I have paid, I have the right to keep it or throw it or get dispensed with it in any form I choose, unless it become a public health problem(I can't throw all the garbages to the public road) or as long as I don't do it on another's property.
Anybody, who think that they know what I should do with my property, ought to get their head examined!
One may be prosecuted for illegal burning in an undesignated area - this would apply to burning anything. One may be prosecuted for theft - if the flag is stolen. One may be prosecuted for defacing public property - if the flag is in front of or taken from a public building. One cannot be prosecuted for burning an American flag - at least not in the US.
"Koran burning is an expression of free speech and killing people in a riot over that can not be excused!"
You are absolutely correct. However, and this is more the issue for me than the freedom of speech, this holy man who burned the Koran knew that there would be deaths.
I know that if I burn a Koran there will be riots and there will be deaths - so I will not do it; it's called common sense. That is the crime- this man of God knows his actions will cause death and yet he still burns the Koran.
I don't excuse the rioters, but I also do not excuse the man of God who is intelligent enough to know what his actions will cause.
Good grief, Lady Love, we actually agree on something!
I think one has to consider the consequences of one's words. Regardless of whether speech is free or not, and regardless of whether some people aren't riled by something that is said, if something is going to make some respond with evil, then it is the wise thing and the better thing, not to say it.
I'm not trying to excuse anything. I wonder if this pator would mind sitting down with the families of those killed in the UN compound in Kandahar on Friday and explaining to them just would he was trying to express here; other than a publicity stunt...
Why should the preacher have to explain anything to anybody? If there's any explaining to be done its by those that committed acts of violence and used this preacher's actions as an excuse to justify them.
If you say sometkill you know will anger me does that give me the right to kill?
Anyone that tries to absolve these people of their savagery simply because they are Muslims that were insulted is as much a radical jihadist as the people committing the violence.
I will not be silenced nor will I modify my behaviour because someone else might be insulted!
But what exactly did the pastor hope to gain by burning the Koran that could not have been gained far more effectively by more peaceful means?
what did the animals think when they blow themselves up? when the Hijack planes? when they behead people???
Really, so they blew themselves up and hijacked planes whilst beheading people! And all over a pastor burning a copy of the Koran!!
John Holden wrote:
But what exactly did the pastor hope to gain by burning the Koran that could not have been gained far more effectively by more peaceful means?
what did the animals hope would happen when they blow themselves up? when they Hijack planes? when they behead people???
So, you accuse these people of being animals and then say we should be just like them!
where did I say we should be like them? I said we are not like them! WOW please show me where I said that in English. Ty
Oh you didn't say it in as many words but you implied it, otherwise why so quick to defend the pastor?
it was wrong for the pastor to burn the book, but how is that like being them???????? burning a book is the same as killing? beheading? suicide bombing? also if everyone claims it is only the extremist then I guess all those people with the violence that went to the UN were extremist and they should have killed all of them! since everyone says only the extremist were the violent ones.
I think your probably afraid of them and they have free rein in the UK and you know with in 10 years you will have sharia law over there and you grew your beard so you can put on the Muslim garb and pretend your one of them. or you already are.
On the contrary, it's you that's afraid of them.
They don't have free rein in the UK, we have racists too, but the general population accepts them and sees them for what they are, just people who want to benefit from some of the western way of life.
We do have Sharia to a very limited extent, civil courts only and only between Muslims where both parties agree to be bound by Sharia. No criminal courts or any thing lke that, no public beheading or anything, just the right not to be put in conflict with their religion.
According to Pastor Jones:
his burning of the Quran “definitely does prove that there is a radical element of Islam. … I believe the UN needs to stand up to countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Muslim-dominated countries. They have been persecuting, killing Christians for generations.”
Is he wrong? We've seen persecution of christians in Egypt as well as the usual muslim states. The preacher was making a point, a valid point, and not only was it his right to do so but it was his duty as well, to call out the persecution of people and to ask for a call to action to protect them.
I'm sick and tired of being told we have to be tolerant of others when they refuse to tolerate us. Jihad is real and the enemy is the west and all people that aren't Muslim or believe Mohammad was some kind of prophet. Look at his life he was a warrior he had a nine year old wife for gods sake!
Sorry, but most of us knew about radical Islam without the pastor pointing it out to us, just as we know about radical Christianity, radical Judaism and radical hub pagers and anything else you like.
The vast majority of Muslims do more than tolerate us.
So when we know about something we should sit silently with our hands folded in our laps and accept it, tolerate it? Really? And why are we in Libya again?
tolerate us? are we getting on buses in Israel and blowing ourselves up? do we Hijack planes and put them in buildings? Do we behead people in public? how you stick up for these cave-people is beyond me. Not once have you stated that these people are wrong, always because we did something to egg them on!
I think you should go live in one of those countries. you seem so sympathetic to them.
No we don't get on busses and blow ourselves up and we don't hijack planes and we don't behead people in public but we do occupy their lands for oil and give their property over to others we deem worthy and we sell arms to all the others who will buy them.
America has such a short memory and expects all others to forget the past as we do when we invade and appoint leaders in their countries.
It is a scab Terry Jones picked when we do those things that show little restraint. Did the nutcase in Florida have a right to burn the Koran? Absolutely! Did he show some Christian love and patience? Absolutely not!
He has the right to burn a Koran, period. However, rights come with responsibilities, which he ignores. However...hey, burn it. Screw it. I like to piss on Jesus' picture and used the pages of Genesis as toilet paper.
Radical Islamists' actions led to deaths. If you want to blame anyone here in the USA for it, blame those leaders who've set their politically-correct agenda into place, slowly stripping all Americans of their free speech and rights under the guise of tolerance.
Actually, according to the source guards opened fire on demonstrators, killing several.
If you want somebody to blame look to those who allow hatred and bigotry to flourish.
Brilliant analysis as always Sister Brenda.
" If you want to blame anyone here in the USA for it, blame those leaders who've set their politically-correct agenda into place, slowly stripping all Americans of their free speech and rights under the guise of tolerance."
So, and don't let me misquote you here...If we blame anyone in the US for deaths overseas sparked by burning a Koran, we need to blame the Democrats/liberals because an Evangelical pastor burned a Koran and the Democrats/liberals have been stripping away the rights to burn other peoples' holy books, is that close?
Wow.... see you at church lolll
Good point. The jackass evangelical's action and its consequences equate to shouting fire in a crowded theater. He is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.
Nonsense! All this reaction does is illustrate the intolerance of Muslims and their propensity for violence in the face of free speech! Stop making exceptions for them! If christians did this you'd be calling for their heads!
No intolerance shown by the Koran burning pastor then!
Oh sorry, that's OK because he's a god fearing true American isn't he!
But still showed intolerance, probably with the hope that the result would be as it was.
Where was the intolerance? He was expressing an opinion. Claiming he knew what would happen is pure speculation, regardless the reaction to what the preacher did reinforces his point that Islam is a violent non tolerant religion.
But he didn't do that at all, just as Timothy McViegh didn't prove that Christianity is a violent non tolerant religion.
He committed an act which he knew would upset a lot of people, some Christian!
Muslim are violent irrational and intollerant, one never knows what they will do after all they killed a guy for drawing a cartoon!
Have you seen some of the art depicting Christ and the Virgin Mary, supported with.our tax dollars? That upset millions of Christians but they didn't kill the artist attack the UN or behead Muslims did they? So let's just stop the double standard!
No, some Muslims are violent and irrational, most are peace loving, or at least as peace loving as you are
It amuses me to see the self proclaimed most powerful country in the world quaking in their boots at the thought of a handful of radical Muslims and ganging up like a convocation of school bullies.
The only quaking in boots us by the left afraid to offend the radicals that help to elect them. This administration wont even refer to Islamic terrotists as such
Now you lost your mind! how do you put this stupid pastor in the same category as Tim. McVeigh????? he blew up a building and killed innocent people like the animals you stick up for! are you with Al Qaeda? again why do you make all kinds of excuses for these people? How does burning a book even come close to Blowing up a building?
No he isn't.
If you shout "fire" in a movie theater, and then the people start shooting one another... then those people are idiots.
What happened was entirely predictable. The creep "Christian" minister was warned. Terry Jones went ahead. Innocent people died. He was responsible. His mouth should be sewed shut!
He's cut out of the same ignorant cloth as the Wesboro Baptist Church idiots. Not to mention other assinine Evangelicals like Pat Robertson.
The fanaticism of some moslems across the globe is common knowledge to every human around the globe since the WTC disaster.
Their readiness to kill, even their own countrymen, is no secret.
Stupid, pointless provocation by some only heightens the danger to the lives of our soldiers and civilian workers in countries where islam is the religion of the majority.
What problem was solved by this idiotic act?
Was even a single terrorist brought to justice by it? No.
The people who did this knew that this provocation would be followed by murderous attacks on our soldiers and our civilian workers - because that has always been the case.
They have deliberately endangered lives of U.S. citizens.
You don't fight fanaticism with fanaticism
Couldn´t agree more. Well said DRR.
What a provocations good for?
If it was not for the bigotry of Christian zealots and other religious fanatism on this planet, history would have only to deal with monsters like Hitler or Stalin. Fanatism makes things complicated and is good for absolutely nothing.
The pastor is playing a classic psychological game of "Let's you and him fight". He does something wholly intended to incite violence (a fight) and then stands back and says, "I didn't do it". He gets the pay off of feeling morally superior, gets satisfaction from seeing others play out his conflict and at the same time he can pretend he has absolutely no responsibility for the outcome of his actions ie: "I am blameless".
If any of you have siblings you will remember this game from your childhood.
Spot on Susana, now try and convince some of this lot of the truth of it!
Koran burning ... or shooting, or desecrating; are, the "Last Act" ... of the Drama, of a doddering Non-belief ... vented against Islam, as Book Burning, by idiots, professing False Beliefs.
These idiotic actions, are essentially Political in Nature, and carried out by hired Proxies ... these actions, while hurting the Belief and Sensibilities of Muslims ... also hurt the sentiments of all True Believers ...
These sacrilegious actions are based in Physical abuse ... for its not reasonable ... for they, in Reason, believe ... These fools are Hypocrites, who think, they can burn The Word of God ... obliterate Truth.
They will soon be obliterated ... Face The Lord, Whose Word, they do not Believe.
Mental answer from you again Shahid - good stuff. No idea what you're on about, but I guess that's why I'll burn in hell...
What do you have in that pipe, incidentally?!
God, Is ... Toward His Creation, The Most Merciful, The Most Beneficent, The Most Loving, and Caring ... One.
He Saves Humankind, particularly Believers, from His Created Hell's Fires, and, the Purgatory ... For, He Hath Promised, Forgiveness of all the Major and Minor Sins of those, who Believe ...
The only Unforgiven Sin, in Islam ... is "Shirk" ... Placing equals with God, making Partners of God ... Believing in others, than God, as gods ... or in the Believers Asking others, while believing in ... God.
That He, Rewards all Human Effort, even the effort of those, who do not Believe. His Reward, is never less, never more, than the Effort ... His, Is ... a Just Rewarding, for those who do Good, or make honest Effort in this life ... Though their Reward is limited to this worldly life ...
[Reckon, you now Understand the Existence of Non Muslim Saints, and the How and Why, of the Communist and Capitalist Billionaires, and the Accolades of the Nobel Academy and Oscars, the Olympics Golds and Silvers, etc..]
As regards the Pipe and what I have in the Pipe ... I smoke a Branded Cavendish Mixture; been Faithfully smoking now for about 60 years; thanks to The Almighty ... despite the Slogans devised by Alcoholic Beverages Manufacturers against Tobacco Products Manufacturers.
Reminds me, when I saw a 55ish man, standing on a soap box in Hyde Park, London ... with perhaps fifty lighted cigarettes, Cigars and Pipes stuffed in his mouth, and he was Smoking them all simultaneously ... The fellow had a placard in his hand, which read ... "Only healthy people can afford to smoke ."
Narcotics smoking, is like Driving a 1250 HP sports car, stuck at full throttle, without a Steering wheel or brakes ! ...
Hope you don't mean that, by the insinuation.
I am non believers in terms of religion...For me bible or quran or torah are nice read books written by humans ...but burning any of them means someone somewhere missed the concept of god totally...anyways i hope better sense gets prevailed on those who burnt quran or bible or torah or veda ...i hope this religious insanity ends in future where no bomb would be blown in name of religion , when no book would be burnt in name of religion and when religion would become what it is ...strictly private matter...
Bottom line here is A LOT of these people are not normal and to go crazy over burning a book and act in this manner just shows what we are dealing with! Honestly Russia was in war with this forsaken country and the USA armed them to fight Russia and now they are using our weapons against us!! Now Obama wants to arm the Libyan rebels who have terrorist ties and have fought in Iraq and Afghan? Do we not learn our lesson? I say we get the hell out of the middle east bring our men and woman home and let them kill each other! if they attack us we give them unrelenting bombs and wipe out the country! enough already. You can not help stupid.
Well it is not just that usa armed afghan is the problem..russia was communist country ...they invaded afghan...so cia ,isi got in and used saudi money to deal with russia...weapon they used was more dangerous than bombs and guns...it was using religion !!!!!!!...now fanatics against god less russia worked as per american plan but now it back fired against usa itself...bcoz definition of god for afghan and usa is different...
I know Russia was communist, That is not the point I was trying to say. I was trying to say that we should not get involved as you admitted It back fired. It will also back fire as history repeats itself if Obama arms the rebels. We also gave chemical weapons to Saddam against Iran more history repeating itself.
Really! You want your soldiers to fight amongst themselves!
Actually that would go down well with a lot of people, though perhaps not with US soldiers.
Our country has been taken over by the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower spoke of...Obama is a puppet for them.
Bottom line is this: Why, when even a knuckle-dragger like this "pastor," would your burn a book knowing full well what the result would be? The only reason these people burned the Koran was to get the very reaction they received.
If I had a giant scab on my arm that was healing, albeit slowly, why the hell would I pick it off knowing full well it would bleed?
Sure, does he have the right to do this? Of course he does.... should he exercise the right to do this? No way....
The pastor was a D!cK to do this! but that does not excuse the way they act! most of these people are still in the 7th century! Have you ever heard the phrase two wrongs does not make a right? why are you justifying the behavior of such animals? why do you not respond to the weapons they want to give the rebels in Libya?
I don't see where DT is justifying any behaviour!
Understanding the reasons for something is not justification.
So if someone kills someone because they made that person look like a fool in someway, did not harm them physically it is OK? So we understand that person was made to look like a fool and that gives them the right to kill? so your saying you will not agree but you understand? is that right?
to me I would not waste my time on the actions of animals! we know why they went crazy. That is just another excuse for these animals. will you not deny they are animals? just because ONE stupid pastor burns a book they go crazy? this is the type of people you want to help or justify? again you can not help stupid!
Yes, I would strongly deny that they are animals, just as I would deny that the guards who started the killing are animals.
I most certainly would not want to help or justify the stupid pastor who burnt the Koran, where did you get that silly idea from?
so you stick up for animals because that is what they are! they act like animals and they are animals. and you just condone the pastor. LMAO. we are done.
I'm Not sure ANY US citizens were killed in this attack on the UN Compound.. were there?
Yet the Staged Act of Burning the Koran was an intentional act by a US pastor was it not?
He Knew Exactly What He was doing and irrespective of his 'personal' reasons for justifying his actions and dodging any responsibility for the consequences of his arrogance, he knowingly incited the reaction!
What was it for the UN Staff.... Another Case of Friendly Fire?
New Zealand and Australia have troops there also... as Anzacs we don't disrespect others like that...
How Knowingly Arrogant... and Ignorant - that His Actions would be representative of a wider Christian point of view!
You are Right Mate... there are many in this world who aren't quite right mentally... including a few Backwater Cultist Pastors seeking World Recognition... interesting that they use the same style of motivation that we see in suicide bombers.. isn't it!
Again what a crazy stupid pastor did was 10000% wrong but that does not give reason to act like cavemen! they burn the bible the US flag pics and figures of our president etc... does anyone act like a animal here?? these people are so ridiculous and need to fight or they are miserable! they have no mercy from me anymore! they have proven themselves to many times. I want to hear you speak after one of them blow themselves up on a bus that a family member was on.
Just remember the the killing was started by the men guarding the UN compound.
because of the actions of those animals that look to start fights....just like you on hubpages looking to start with people over posts. I guess you just do not have the balls to blow yourself up. very similar to me.
Sorry, did you speak! I thought that you'd given up on me!
I've found on my journey through life that people behave pretty much as you would expect them to, you expect people to behave like animals and by heck, they'll prove you right!
Why should I want to blow myself up?
so I expect you to act a fool is that true too?
I've found on my journey through life that people behave pretty much as you would expect them to, you expect people to behave like animals and by heck, they'll prove you right!
And that gets the reply;-
so I expect you to act a fool is that true too?
As I said, try it in English please.
I've found on my journey through life that people behave pretty much as you would expect them to, you expect people to behave like animals and by heck, they'll prove you right!
again so my question to you was so I expect you to act a fool By heck does that make you one?
JH, you seem to have a lot of trouble comprehending English, champ. You need to take a remedial reading class and stop pretending it's anyone else's problem.
Actually, you'd be hard pressed to find many examples of where a devout Moslem did ANYTHING to the Christian Bible. You might want to research that one a little more - desecrating the Christian Bible, the Injil, doesn't fly in Islam. Burning the flag, no doubt...
http://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread … s-breath..
Actually you wouldn't be hard pressed at all! Muslims everywhere routinely persecute Christians so once again you know not of what you speak!
I live near a cemetery where Muslim gravestones are regularly desecrated, presumably by Christians and not Muslims!
Then those doing so should be caught and punished according to the law. Maybe not stoned to death, but punished according to the law. If you live near there you should keep an eye out and stop them if you see them, or call the police if you are afraid to act yourself.
An astoundingly witty and erudite reply, as usual.
I said THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE - Now go look again and find out I am right. I am not saying anything about the persecution of Christians - I know that extists.
I know what I seen on TV, recently they went into a town and killed the priest and burnt down the church. this has been happening for years! not hard to find at all when I have a little time I will post actual info for you.
here is the hard pressed which actually caused that pastor to burn the Qur'an
Here's an article from the local Gainesville paper
http://www.gainesville.com/article/2011 … &tc=pg
I just can't imagine being filled with so much hatred, they knew this would happen.
he needs to be held accountable for these actions...yes those radicals are filled with hate and I'm not excusing their behavior.
it's like throwing kittens into a cage with vicious pitbulls
Worse than that, they wanted it to happen!
I see many times on TV those animals burning the bible,US flag and pictures of our president even this time Obama and we do not act like uncivilized fools? Anyone who makes excuses over that kind of behavior needs to have their heads examined.
I never made an excuse for "them." But neither do I make an "excuse" for our whackey fringe. The reality that we can do something doesn't always mean we should. Pastor Jones certainly knew what the reaction would be - the precise reason he did it. Being a "good Christian," you would expect this "Man of God" would have taken the moral high ground. Now let's see how many American kids end up in a box in the hold of an airplance over this. Two wrongs don't make a right.
There are lots of things you and I "can" do that we choose not to do because we know it isn't morally or ethically correct - legal? yes... but not smart.
The death penalty for burning korans, insulting Islam, converting from Islam... more examples of why Afghanistan is still a donkey cart culture. You just can't have progress with that. I feel sorry for the normal people over there who just want to have a life but who are subject to the idiocy of men clinging to power through abuse of that religion. I feel sorry for their women most. Doomed to lose children and be perpetually nothing. I find it ironic that some American women complain about being objectified in the U.S. because they have the freedom to wear whatever they want and can, at their own discretion, present themselves in ways that get them gawked at (and can even gain them wealth). American women have no idea what it's like to really be an object if you look at it in that light.
You are correct - it is a donkey cart culture. It's always been a donkey cart culture. So a trillion dollars later, it's still a donkey cart culture.
It's know as the "Graveyard of Empires" for a reason. The British Empire couldn't "do" anything with it, The Russian Empire lost their shirt as well - the "Western Empires" started experiencing this in the 1840's.
The Soviets went home with their tail between their legs in the 1980's as well. So the trillion dollar question is the following: What do we hope to gain from this? Stability? lollll -
We aren't going to wake up one day and find a McDonalds on every corner and a new generation of "God-fearing Christians" getting dressed for church on Sunday...
"The freedom of speech does not extend to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre."
This is UTTER nonsense.
You DO have a right to yell fire in a crowded theatre until you decide to WAIVE that right when buying the ticket.
When you buy a ticket, you agree to the rules set forth by the property owner. You agree NOT to disturb the movie - the same reason why you turn off your cell phone.
Your freedom of speech is NOT absent, you just willingly agree to restrict what you will say while on the private property.
The SCOTUS is/was wrong, as they almost always are/were.
I do not condone pissing people off, but if ANYONE thinks that "burning a book" give ANYONE ELSE permission to kill people, then they are just plain dumb.
The pastor (or whoever) bought the koran, and chose to burn it. While this is clearly insensitive, it does NOT grant permission to kill.
I agree - this should not be viewed as an excuse for violence. And I think the quotation should be viewed largely as a metaphor; rather than a green light to give us the house rules of your local cinema.
Do you consider the actions of this pastor are responsible?
No, it doesn't give anybody permission to kill, neither rioters or guards.
However, it does give permission to protest and when protesters and authorities are armed, death often results.
You'll be too young to remember, for example, Kent State University where the National Guard shot and killed US students protesting the Vietnam war.
it doesn't 'grant' people permission to kill but the key point for me is that he KNEW that would happen and is therefore implicated in the deaths and quite possible even guilty in the eyes of the law, presuming that there is a law which covers taking part in an act while knowing this would lead to deaths or serious violence.
Of course he's guilty, it's called first degree conspiracy to commit multiple murders. The people who fired the actual gun shots commited second degree murder. This is strictly from a legal stand point.
no - if I burn a bible, and someone kills someone else because of it, it ain't my fault.
If X uses a racial slur, and Y uses that as an excuse to murder, then Y is at fault, not X.
Murder is a violation of property rights, insults are not.
Those who killed other people are responsible and accountable for their own actions, regardless of what someone else did.
If I go walking down the streets of Harlem shouting the N word, should I be surprised I end up dead?
If I waltz into a Southern Baptist Church shouting "Jesus was a hippy commie!" (even though he was a hippy commie), should I be surprised this NRA recruiting ground turns the barrel of their guns in my direction?
If I shake a bee hive nest, should I act surprised if I get stung?
Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence, including the ultimate consequence. I'm certain those who commited the murders will be punished, but people need to understand there are consequences for your actions. It's hard to argue the "victims" were innocent seeing that this was the result they desired, now they must live with the consequences. The people who killed must know that murder in cold blood is wrong, even against the least of us, and they too will deal with the consequences.
Welcome to a world where adults have to deal with consequences, but instead rather than learning from it, people are throwing tantrums. I feel sorry for the children. . .
nononon, you're using sophistry to take control of the population.
If you are dumb enough to go into harlem and yell the N word repeatedly while wearing a KKK outfit, and then someone murders you....
... then THEY MURDERED YOU.
You were (likely) on public property (which shouldn't exist), and thus had "every right" to be there.
Next time someone calls me an idiot, I'll murder them, and then say "well, what did he expect? He ACTUALLY thought I would restrain MYSELF when HE called ME an IDIOT!?!?!?!?! When he called me an "idiot" he was insulting an entire population of people!! IDIOTS UNITE!!!!"
Then the jury would let me off? Are you nuts?
What's the difference between calling someone an N, and calling someone an Idiot?
Nothing. Deal with it.
I just don't understand why people think we should put duct tape over our mouths to make radical Islamists happy. After a while they'll move on to other reasons to kill each other.
Doesn't it bother anyone that Americans in America are being asked to curtail freedom of poltical and relgious speech - which are the two most protected forms of speech in this country - because religious leaders in another country disagree with it.
And yes you can't yell fire in a theater - that's not an allegory, that's a very practical limitation on speech. So are sign codes that limit your commercial speech.
But the courts have always been leery when it comes to limiting political and religious speech. That's why Nazis were allowed to march in Skokie, Illinois, when there were survivors of the death camps living there. We have always allowed non-violent political and religious speech as a basic right, no matter what others think of it. When we stop allowing it we will stop being the United States of America.
But it could rightly be argued that burning the Koran was a violent act and therefore your argument doesn't hold water.
Had they have held a mock trial of the Koran and passed a non-violent sentence then we wouldn't be having this debate and nobody would have died.
"But it could rightly be argued that burning the Koran was a violent act and therefore your argument doesn't hold water."
Are you nuts?!!?!?! That's COMPLETE nonsense
How is "buying a book, and then choosing to burn your own property" a "violent act"?
Who did I harm? no one.
it wasn't violent, quit making up nonsense to blur issues.
Violence is a violation of property rights, burning your own book is not.
acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force: a violent earthquake.
caused by injurious or destructive force: a violent death.
intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain; violent cold.
roughly or immoderately vehement or ardent: violent passions.
furious in impetuosity, energy, etc.: violent haste.
of, pertaining to, or constituting a distortion of meaning or fact.
Note, only a passing reference to people!
I hold that it was a violent act. It doesn't matter who owned the book, the act was made very public, fgs he could have burnt the book in his back yard and nobody would have been any wiser but he didn't, why didn't he?
obviously malicious intent. but it was not a violent act. no one was physically hurt by the burning of a book! your out of your mind and convinced you just like to stir up controversy. do you just like to look for something to argue your nonsense too? you pick one part out of many post and leave the real question to start some BS.
For a start, where is it written that a violent act has to harm somebody? If, say 9/11, had not resulted in any deaths would you allow me to argue that it wasn't violence?
I really don't think you're in a position to judge my sanity so just leave it out will you, or I might just be forced to retaliate
I'm really not seeing "burning a quran" in the definition of violent. At all.
It seems that you're taking notes from politicians: you're using a very very very loose translation of the word "violent" to make it seem like a much more severe offense. You're using "an angry act" to mean "murdering someone in blind rage".
... oh wait, here we go...
I belong to a very important religion that worships mother earth. All things that She makes are holy to me....
... The next time you burn a log, then I'M ALLOWED TO KILL YOU BECAUSE YOU VIOLENTLY ATTACKED MY RELIGION!!!
It's the SAME THING, just replace "log" with "Quran", and suddenly you've given me the right to murder.
Caring about other people's religion can only be taken so far.
Intent Evan, intent. Sure, burning a log is not a violent act but burning a log as a representative of something you are afraid of is a violent act.
You know, sticking pins in a wax effigy.
like the effigy of Obama that they kicked and burned???
So, if some guy says "If you say that Republicans are idiots, I'm going to murder thousands of people", and then I proceed to say "Republicans are idiots"...
... then I'm a murderer?
You OBVIOUSLY don't believe your own words, John.
Just because I piss someone off does NOT mean that I should be held responsible for their murdering of someone else. I know that you agree, but you are just being blindsided by "religious tolerance".
Evan, I don't think I'm blind sided by religious tolerance or intolerance.
Neither do I think your comparison with Republicans is valid.
We are looking at a different and rather volatile culture and we are also occupying their country, which in itself is a rather volatile act.
We then attack their culture further, by burning their sacred book.
OK, killing is wrong and to be condemned but to be surprised and shocked that a directly provocative act upset them to the point of killing is naive, as is expecting them to behave and respond in a western way.
Just as I would not expect you to kill me if I pissed you off, I would expect at least a good kicking if I pissed off my enemy.
Well, MY Culture is to murder people whenever someone disagrees with me on HubPages. So, sayeth the mighty Mother Earth.
It's a strange culture, but a culture nonetheless.
You have been warned: I murder people when people argue with me on HubPages. Praise Mother Earth!!
I AWAIT YOUR REBUTTAL. (as I load my shotgun.)
Do you feel that the attention-seeking pastor in question should be thought of as in any way responsible for these deaths?
Evan put aside your white, middle class American way of thinking because the people you are trying to relate to aren't white middle class American.
Don't keep telling us what you and other white middle class Americans would do and tell us what you would do if the US was occupied by Afghanistan who then proceeded to taunt you and your culture.
Tell me that you'd sit back and take it on the chin and not react at all, go on, do it.
I just killed 50 people because of your rebuttal.
You were warned, and the blame is yours, John. YOU Killed those people.
YOU KILLED THEM, YOU MURDERER!!!
WHY DID YOU MAKE ME DO IT?!
And how is that an answer to my question?
50 people dead. Because YOU had to have so much pride and argue with me.
Didn't you realize what would happen? Of course you did!! I even warned you!
THROW HIM IN JAIL!! GET HOLDEN ARRESTED!! HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES!!! HIS PRIDE IS UNCONTROLLABLE.
You're telling me then that Hitler did nothing wrong, after all as far as we know he didn't actually kill anybody with his own hands. The millions of deaths were all carried out by others.
Oops brought Hitler into the debate, scrub him and just substitute any fascist dictator.
Wow, nice try Holden.
The pastor in Florida never issued an order to murder anyone.
The pastor in Florida never issued an order to murder anyone who didn't uphold his dictates.
The soldiers of Nazi Germany were responsible for the deaths they carried out, but they had a gun pointed at THEM from their military overlords.
Nice try, though.
I just killed 50 more people, John. Quit arguing with me!! My religion dictates that I kill whenever someone argues with me on HubPages!! I warned you ahead of time!! That's over 100 people dead BECAUSE OF YOU!!! Why did you make me kill those people John? YOU killed them!! you KNEW i would kill them.
I love the way that, because i'm a "white middle class American", my opinion is worthless when it comes to "middle eastern religiously motivated murder".
With your "you'd sit back and take it on the chin" comment, you COMPLETELY missed a few things.
1) Aggressive Violence is never justified: thus, I'm against us being in these countries. I agree we shouldn't be there.
2) If Afghanistan invaded us, then WE would have the right to DEFEND our property.
I have no qualms with the argument "those people decided to attack the UN because the UN funds invasions of their property" -- I would argue FOR that -- it's defense.
But when you say "they murdered some people because some jackass burnt his book", then I have to say that they're murderers.
Defense is defense, offense is unacceptable.
You Know.... IT'S NOT All About America!!
As I said Earlier... I don't think ANY Americans were killed - or even attacked here! Just UN Staff... You Know - Those people HELPING Americans..
Why Does that point rattle on it's way through?
Stop your Flag Waving And JOIN the rest of the people of THE WORLD - We Are Non Americans - You Know... Many of us that send OUR SONS and DAUGHTERS into the US Conflicts, because the US asks Us to help them with such matters!!!
The UN Staff ALL served and helped protect US Interests... So..
Until You Step Down of your horse .. you will NEVER Understand the Rest of Us in this World! (Irrespective of our Religion!)
And My Family have Fought beside the US military since WW1..
and also patched up the wounded US marines during WW2 and Nam... Just Before You Think I'm Dissing your Country!
Your Preacher was wrong - Don't promote such BS.. you only lose respect from those whose families have helped your families - Do You Understand That?
I read about a French court case where a couple had some friends round for drinks, and one of the friends got a bit tiddly but insisted on driving home.
Said friend drove his car into someone and killed himself and them.
The couple who'd thrown the drinks party were prosecuted for failing to prevent a crime. They were found not guilty, but not before they had been dragged through the courts.
I really, really hate the idea that you can be held legally accountable for others' actions. I'm not condoning what the pastor did (far from it - he's clearly a nutter and his church hierarchy should "defrock" him asap if they've got any sense), but whatever happened to personal responsibility?
BTW, some people need to get versed in how war propaganda works:
US troops in Afghanistan have made a living killing innocent civilians and photographing their corpses as trophies.
Now we're supposed to believe the Afghans are angry over a bunch of morons burning a bundle of paper on the other side of the world?!
Divide and conquer, the tactic never gets old. Those in charge want us to fear and hate the boogeyman Muslims. And to what end and for what purpose? I have a few thoeries, but that's another topic. . .
Absolutely... But you know... if the lives of your children were part of that cost... I think you would be upset yeah?
Perhaps everyone in this thread should listen to how the UN Chief feels about loosing members of his family.. so blatantly and completely unnecessarily!
Yes it hurts to lose someone no matter how you lose them. when you have creatures and I will not call the normal human beings putting themselves in positions that will harm people and blowing themselves up for a few virgins that they think they will get. also when you mention the UN everything goes out the window for me. you have brutal dictators on boards, countries that do a lot of harm. how can anyone take them seriously? that is the biggest joke.
First of all, don't try to make the vile behavior of a group of criminals sound like standard or authorized procedure for the US military. That is misleading and inaccurate and you know it.
Second, if you don't believe people are rioting over the burning of the Koran thing then you need to take it up with them, because that is what THEY have very clearly indicated. If that reality doesn't fit into your worldview that Christians simply believing their faith are the wildest zealots in the world then that is your problem and you need to adjust your understanding accordingly.
Where was the compassion in all of this? This pastor went against his own teachings and beliefs!
What ever happened to: (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you),(Let him who is without sin cast the first stone)?
This pastor knew full well that these actions would anger those who considered the Koran their book of worship and the mainstay of their religion!
The pastor struck the first blow in this instance!
Problems in this world usually start when one entity sticks their nose into another's business. America's expansionist practices have caused a lot of problems throughout the world.
We have more military in more countries in this world than any other nation! As soon as we get a foothold in another country,
first come the central bankers, setting up their debt monetary systems, then our religious expansionists begin their work, trying to indoctrinate the people of that nation into some form of western religious beliefs!
Isn't it time we take a long look at ourselves, before we complain about another's way of living or who/what they worship?
We do not follow "expansionist practices." The US military presence in key locations around the world has guaranteed security and prosperity for many decades. We have not 'taken' lands that we surely and easily could have, for that is not our goal. Without that US presence many, many millions would be impoverished, embroiled in war, and dead. Isolationist cowards are near-sighted fools who would only ignore history and create much bigger and costlier problems for us to deal with.
All of which has nothing to do with some idiot who defiles what it means to be Christian by buring Korans.
Well, I'll agree with that bit, wholeheartedly.
Shortstory, There is more than one type of expansionism. Corporate greed for instance. It doesn't always have to be for land.
Our military presence in many countries is to protect corporate interests and not for humanitarian purposes.
Our corporate leaders are not above usurping another nation's natural resources and labor pool to increase their bottom line financially.
Have you ever heard of sweat shops? Our presence in other countries is not always to protect the disadvantaged or oppressed people.
Examples: Union Carbide in Bophal India! Kathy Lee Gifford's company caught with underpaid employees in a sweat shop. Just a walk across the border into Mexico and we find huge factories surrounded by shanty towns inhabited by underpaid workers.
All I am saying is that we should be willing to take an honest look at ourselves, before criticizing others and committing acts such as the pastor did.
Other things beyond the burning of the Koran may have added to the anger and resentment of the U.S.. The burning of the Koran may have been the straw that broke the camel's back in this case.
What was this pastor's motive?
Did he use good judgement? No.
Did he follow his own teachings? No.
Somewhere along the line, common sense should have a bearing on the actions one takes.
This idiot who burned the Karan, is neither a Christian nor man of God, but a nut desperately seeking attention.
YES HE IS! But they do even more than that over there, burning flags, pics and body figures of Obama and burn and step on them and we do not act like animals.
So that justifies the bad behaviour of your countryman!
They burn your flag, and you lob bombs on them in return. I could argue Americans are far more guilty of oevrkill than any Muslim.
If that were the case, which it is not, wouldn't the rational response be to stop burning flags? Seems like an easy fix.
Likewise, wouldn't the rational response be to stop burning the Koran?
Islam the religion of peace:
Over 17000 terror attacks involving loss of life since 9/11
The number of (Muslim) terror attacks in Manchester since 9/11-0 that's zero.
Yeah there's that caring liberalism coming through... it's all good as long as it's not in YOUR neighborhood.
London is not in Manchester, it's not even near Manchester.
It's an entirely different city, many, many miles away.
so Tennessee is not either or Alabama or Oregon but it is part of the USA you fool. maybe not your exact neighborhood but still London!! keep twisting
But I distinctly said Manchester, I was not using that to refer to the whole of the UK, or even a greater part of the UK than Manchester.
And you have the nerve to call me a fool!
of course you said manchester to twist your words so they fit! London has been attacked since then and they caught many others before they actually committed them
so as long as they do not do it in your city it is OK? you do not care about your country? another twist, just Manchester , I did not say anywhere else....no
How many acts of terror were carried out in the indiscriminate trashing of Iraq ? But I guess they were godswork as the guys had a gun in one hand and a bible in the other huh ?
I'm not going to rehash the Iraq war here. The undeniable fact is if Saddam had allowed the IAEA unlimited access there wouldn't have been a war.
B!LLOCKS the weapons inspectors had free access to Iraq, they couldn't find anything so we went with an old thesis that speculated that Iraq did have WMD.
Sorry Saddam refused to comply with UN resolutions demanding access. You are simply wrong.
They most certainly did NOT have "free access." It is no secret that saddam deliberately went out of his way to leave the question open, whether to deter Iran or for any other reason. This point is not even in dispute aside from the very extreme revisionists.
Then why did he not use his WMDs when attacked?
AGAIN you fail to read carefully. Seriously, what is your native language?
Oh right, he didn't use them because he didn't have them, right, got that.
"Saddam admitted he deterred them because he said if Iran knew he did not have them they would attack!"
Right and we know that NOW... we didn't know it then! Remember thee was bipartisan support for the war.
Don't reply to me and quote someone else, champ.
Saddam admitted he deterred them because he said if Iran knew he did not have them they would attack!
The weapons inspectors told it like it is - there were no WMD -
You constantly repeating the WMD lie that was used as the excuse to attack Iraq does not change it. But I guess it circulates another lie round the net again.
How many people ARE burning the Koran? Do you see rallies of thousands of Americans in the streets chanting, jumping up and down in unison, and generally acting like animals while burning the Koran? I'd bet there is at least a ratio of 100000:1 of Americans who'd like to smash a 2x4 into the face of those burning Korans as opposed to those supporting them. It's stupid, unnecessary, disrespectful behavior but it does not justify murder or entire nations going ape-sh!t. If some lunatic in Whereverstan burns a Bible my Muslim neighbors will be in absolutely no danger, and if they were all of my other neighbors and I would step in front of them in a heartbeat.
So what are you saying?
That it wouldn't be rational to stop burning the Koran?
And, by the way, don't forget that the killing started with UN guards opening fire on protesters.
I know you have trouble with English, but try to read what I wrote again.
No I've a better idea, you read what I write, OK deal?
If I use too many big words for you, let me know and I'll try to stick to simple words for you.
where do you come up with that?? you love twisting peoples words to fit your crazy ideology!
wouldn't another normal response be to stop acting like uncivilized fools?
Like I said, different culture, they're not middle class white Americans, and not fools either.
And,tell me this, if you were occupied by Afghanistan and they added to the humiliation by burning things sacred to you would you stand by and applaud?
so because they are uncivilized fools it is OK to act this way??? because they are not middle class Americans it is OK? what do you even know about America? you spew your socialism BS here on Hub pages looking to start fights, you are no better then the Pastor! so if someone attacked someone because of what you said will you be to blame because your spreading your socialist views?
Answer my question please. How would you react if an occupying force burnt items that were sacred to you?
I'm answering the way you answer! how do you like it!!! you do not like when someone picks out something and twists the real question do you?
No, I have the courtesy to either answer the question or butt out, I don't deflect and change the topic like you've just done.
I would not go out and kill, probably laugh at them. worse is probably burn something that was sacred to them. Just like the Crazy pastor did! he said they burn ours we burn also. wrong....YES stupid....YES but no crime committed.
...good to listen to General Petraeus early this a.m.....
I would suspect that these Koran riots in Afghanistan may about a little bit more than Koran burning being that they are being droned daily. Must be fun walking around when you don't know when you are to blasted from the sky in a wink.
I'm sorry to say that I think the "pastor" who burned the book in the first place is directly responsible for the riots and deaths that ensued.
He knew what the reaction would be, and he knew there would be rioting and possible death, but he went about burning the thing anyway! This pathetic excuse of a "pastor" is no more innocent than those who did the killing.
You could even liken the rioters to the weapon that a man uses to kill!
If there is any justice, then the bible burning paster would be arrested, tried and convicted of murder!
The only ones responsible for the death of the innocent are the ones who pulled the trigger.
Doesn't matter how stupid the people who burned the Koran are, they did not do it to get people killed. Typical liberal reaction is to let the guilty off the hook and blame those they hate. They never believe in holding people responsible for their own actions. Lot's of religious artifacts have been destroyed over the years and not one item is worth the death of another. The Afghans that did the killing just wanted an excuse to kill, they would have found one, one way or another. The burning was their excuse.
Religion has caused more deaths than any other cause. It is so ironic that religion preaches peace, and acceptance of sinners, yet results in so many deaths to those that do not follow their particular faith.
You are right, religion and damage to man made religious artifacts have been an excuse for countless unspeakable acts and murders over the ages.
I also agree with you that he did not pull the trigger, but I do believe that his actions are tantamount to pointing the gun.
I am not for one moment suggesting (nor am I trying to imply) that the rioters, who are fully responsible for there own actions, be allowed to go unpunished; they are just as despicable as the idiot who burned the book, and must be made to take full responsibility for there heinous crimes.
The point I am trying to make is one of consequence.
The fact is that there is a history of violent and vitriolic response to any kind of perceived insult to Islam, and so the pastor must have been well aware that his actions would cause the kind of response that it has, yet he still did what he did: like putting a flame to gasoline.
Logic suggests that if you know something bad will happen as a result of your own actions, then you simply don't do it.
A young child of 2 or 3 years old who points and shoots a gun is not aware of the consequences and so cannot be held accountable for the damage caused. However, this pastor knew full well that he would provoke a violent reaction and endanger the lives of innocent people. As far as I am concerned it is not enough to say that he didn't mean for anyone to get hurt or killed.
I am all for freedom of speech, and in an ideal world, one would be able to make his or her opinion known without fear of being hurt or killed. But unfortunately with fanatics looking for an excuse to kill, it is far from ideal. And so, again, when lives are at stake, logic suggests that you don't do anything to provoke violence.
The world would be a much nicer place if it weren't for religion and its fanatics. They just complicates things, breed mistrust, and ultimately turn people against each other. As it is, we have to be mindful of our actions and ensuing consequences.
no. He is not "directly responsible". The real truth is that those rioters are not only murderers, but they're also blackmailers.
If you tell me "Evan, if you call my mother a whore, I'll murder 30 people", then that's a threat, it's a blackmail.
If I then proceed to say "Dude, your mother IS a whore", then all I've done is say 6 words.
If you then proceed to kill 30 people, then you're a murderer AND a blackmailer.
.... but at least you'd be honest!
"Bottom line here is A LOT of these people are not normal and to go crazy over burning a book and act in this manner just shows what we are dealing with! Honestly Russia was in war with this forsaken country and the USA armed them to fight Russia and now they are using our weapons against us!! Now Obama wants to arm the Libyan rebels who have terrorist ties and have fought in Iraq and Afghan? Do we not learn our lesson? I say we get the hell out of the middle east bring our men and woman home and let them kill each other! if they attack us we give them unrelenting bombs and wipe out the country! enough already. You can not help stupid."<----Danny
1) "A lot of 'these' people" who go crazy over burning a book...
-Let me begin to burn Bibles, especially in the stunt-atmosphere that is being created for Qurans...and let us see what happens to me...
-When my girlfriend and others protested in support of the DREAM Act a "conservative" radio show host released the cell number and email address of one of the protestors, who was also undocumented... He told his listeners to "let her know how "we" feel".. I received many of the phone calls that came in...vile threats, insults, and so much "I am reporting you"..."I hate you"...over the top psychobabble that I firmly believe an even more insane reaction would occur if Bibles were targeted for destruction...
-Do I need to mention how crazy many Americans become when American flags are burned?
-The perpetuation of Muslims as "violent" especially when compared to Christians is bigoted and false...
These are not personal insults, Danny...simply facts of life..
2) I agree that we need to bring out men and women home, especially from Iraq...where we should have never been in the first place...
But, especially being descended from people who were genocided by their own government, I do not see our actions in Libya as wrong... The Armenians would have loved for Britian or the United States to live up to their promises during and after World War 1.....but, what's a million and a half murderd Armenians? Poor Wilsonian Armenia....worth less than the paper it was devised upon...
There is a time and a place for military action....it is too bad we have been worn down and bankrupted by a corrupt war generated to bolster defense related profits and neo-con credentials...
Let's make sense out of this issue:
If you piss someone off, intentionally, then you're an idiot.
If that person then proceeds to murder 30 people, then they are murderers.
The pastor (or whoever) is an idiot, but the people who killed others are murderers.
The pastor is NOT responsible for those deaths.
IF you DO think he is, then i want to pose this to you:
"If you respond to this post by saying 'I hate bald people', then I WILL KILL 30 PUPPIES!!! -- but it will be YOUR fault for insulting bald people!!! YOU BASTARD!!!"
It's the exact same thing, but replace "insulting bald people" with "insulting muslims", and replace "puppies" with "people".
It's. the. exact. same. thing.
"Let me begin to burn Bibles, especially in the stunt-atmosphere that is being created for Qurans...and let us see what happens to me..."
NOTHING would happen to you, aside from the derision and isolation from many in society - which would be your goal and a point of liberal pride no doubt. If anyone did become violent toward you, the government - regardless of what party occupied the executive - would arrest and punish those responsible, and most of your neighbors including and especially Christians would step in to protect you if they saw you being assaulted regardless of the fact that you would have in a sense deserved it. Someone of your ilk would of course not appreciate any of that and would rush to blog about what an innocent 'victim' you were and to fish for compliments about what a brave voice against oppression you were. (puke)
"-Do I need to mention how crazy many Americans become when American flags are burned?"
Do 'they' throng to the streets in their thousands, burning cars, destroying buildings, and killing anyone they even suspect as representing those who did the burning? NO, 'they' do not. They recognize those doing the burning as the disrespectful, simple-minded dirtbags that they are but that's about it. It is extremely rare that a flag burner even gets so much as the puch in the mouth they deserve, let alone being killed in the streets, and even then the one engaging in physical assault is prosecuted under the law.
You latest attempt at relativism fails miserably.
I for one agree that the pastor was entirely with his rights to burn a Koran, just as any agnostic in America is free to burn a bible. Agnostic don't generally, but generally they aren't out to offend. They want to be left alone. Pastor Jones went out of his way to antagonize globally, which is why he posted his BBQ online.
But he was within his rights - and it's not his fault that Muslims in foreign fundamentalist cultures misunderstood his zeal. These cultures need someone with missionary spirit to explain it to them. I for one, will contribute to a fund to buy a one-way ticket - no - charter a plane for the whole congregation to explain freedom of religion to the heathen in Afghanistan. Problem solved to everyone's satisfaction.
There is a rule that I try to live by....
I may not be a Christian.... But, I am not going to go out and try to incite them... If one tries to convince me of my "sinful ways" and attempts to convince me that my soul is in jeopardy of hellfire, then I will argue my case, or just choose to move on...
But, I will not go and try to convince Christians that they are false...
There are some things that should be sacred....and part of this deals with personal identity....as long is it is not a threat to society at large,then it is fine with me... I can disagree, but I will tend to keep it to myself..
People with responsibility...these church leaders who have decided that burning Qurans is a good thing to do, demonstrate recklessness and a lack of understanding towards others, even of their own communities...
It is too bad that these adults have to sink to such low places in order to garner support, or to bolster their attendance, etc...
Are killers responsible for their actions? Of course....
But, the person or persons who incite them are also responsible...
We want to live in a free world where we are responsible for our own decision-making, right?
In that case, when one does something that is inflammatory, one had better be prepared for what happens and act accordingly... In my book, that means that if you have a religious identity, then you are entitled to it... Just leave me be..
It is a sad day for Christianity when pastors and others have to "move their base" through such low-brow, simpleton moves like burning Qurans... For those who do this who are American, in my mind this is great hypocrisy...
Thank you Short Story...
I was pointing out the obvious bigotry portrayed through the grand generalization of Danny...
And then you defend the generalization...
With over a billion Muslims on the planet...if it was truly "a religion of violence" you wouldn't have the small groups....imagine half a billion people coming after you..
But we don't see that...do we?
Christianity has its own long, bloody story... I can't think of a single religion more violent than Christianity... Societies claiming Christianity as their base are responsible for more death and destruction in the 20th century alone than any other group of people...
And as I think back about the "violent Muslim" idea, I think of the Muslims who sheltered my family during the Armenian Genocide...I think of the countless Armenians who were saved...
And then I think back to what instigated and caused the Genocide to take place to begin with....and I look back to the Christian missionaries from Britain..but more importantly the United States.... While many blame the Muslim Ottoman Turks for the atrocities...doing so is naive... I don't have to turn to history books or "liberal education" to find the truth here...I have my own familial history recorded...I also have the stories of Genocide survivors..now long dead...
There are different ways that violence in culture is displayed....and Christian Americans who point to Muslims as "violent prone" are hypocrites or just plain ignorant of their own ongoing history..
Short Story...let me find something that you hold sacred, and then trample all over it...and then we will see what kind of reaction you come up with...
Let us start an American flag burning or cross trampling campaign, and see how far we get before the death threats or actual attacks occur...
People have been assaulted and killed in the United States for much less...and in greater numbers..
"And then you defend the generalization..."
Unless I have specifically defended something anywhere other than in your imagination, you need to be more responsible in your responses.
"With over a billion Muslims on the planet...if it was truly "a religion of violence" you wouldn't have the small groups....imagine half a billion people coming after you.."
Show me where I have labeled Islam "a religion of violence" or retract your baseless accusation.
"Christianity has its own long, bloody story... "
Oh gosh, really? How brave and innovative of you to say so! You must be an insightful ciritical thinker to dare speak to power in such a manner! No one has ever pointed a critical eye toward Christianity before you.
" I think of the Muslims who sheltered my family during the Armenian Genocide..."
Do you have some personal memory of this, or are you just prostituting your ancestors to make a tiny little political point on some forum? They must be so proud to see you dancing around with their dead, naked corpses so you can convince yourself you've made a point on an internet forum that will be forgotten before the screen goes cold. Way to go. Very classy.
"...let me find something that you hold sacred, and then trample all over it...and then we will see what kind of reaction you come up with..."
Would you like that? Would that make you feel good? Do you slash the tires of people you disagree with in your spare time?
"Let us start an American flag burning or cross trampling campaign, and see how far we get before the death threats or actual attacks occur..."
Are you trying to pretend that hasn't happened a thousand times already? Are you just dying to see the reaction that would fit your agenda, or are you really advocating such behavior?
OK, how about this.
The pastor shouldn't be held LEGALLY responsible for his actions, because that would open up a huge can of worms (see my earlier post about the French couple for how that could pan out).
But is the pastor MORALLY responsible for those deaths? Yes, IMO he is.
yes morally. still does not excuse the actions of those animals! it is ok for them to burn bibles churches and kill priests? they do this constantly. we do not act like savages. these people only want war. they look for excuses.
I totally agree, although I have to wonder how far the actions of the West have contributed to this. We constantly play other countries off against each other, and are happy to sell arms to nasty dictators until said dictators have outlived their usefulness. Then it's suddenly a case of "this is a rogue state, we must invade it!"
"we do not act like savages. these people only want war. they look for excuses."
What an unbelievably ignorant and blind statement !!! It is you who are waging war on them - it is you in Iraq, and in Afghanistan, I don't see their armies advancing on you !
In this respect you are the savages in todays world.
Are you really sure about that?
American soldiers taking photos of themselves with their dead victims isn't savagery!
No he is not in any way responsible for those deaths that's nonsense!
There was a case in CT where a mans family was killed, his 2 daughters and wife raped murdered and set ablaze. He was beaten but survived. Yet if he killed those responsible he would be charged and likey convicted of murder.
We each are responsible for our actions and to excuse them based.on the actions of another is just nonsense. If that's the standard then just about anything can be excused away.
I just don't understand why people insist on giving Muslims a pass. Isalm is supposed to be the religion of peace, that's what they tell us but their actions say otherwise. In fact no one has killed more Muslims in all if time than Muslims themselves.
This kind of extreme racism is out of place in a 'civilised' world and this post is close to a hate speech.
The right wing christian backed war on Iraq in itself is the most aggressive act in all of this nonsense.
What nonsense! You claim to be superior in intellect and you post such drivel? Lol!
Only superior in intellect to the authors of these hate speeches and bigoted inflammatory posts.
You are supporting a morally bankrupt plonker who burned a Koran publicly - knowing full well that it would cause violence. The disgraceful COWARD sitting safe at home in his self righteous indignation has knowingly caused the deaths of those UN personnel - dead peacekeepers through the actions of a cowardly drivelling moron.
Do you really such a narrow view that you can't see the connection, the irresponsibility and the cowardice of this man's actions ? I guess you would feel differently if it was your son or husband dead at the end of this sequence of events.
Nice of you to absolve the actual killers of any blame. All I can say is I'm glad you're not a judge. Your view is as radical as those that reacted so violently to a man burning his property.
It was the preachers right to burn the koran.
It was the Muslims.right to be angry and to protest.
It is not the Muslims right to kill as a result of that anger.
For you to claim that position represents bigotry and hate is to prove yothought radical lacking logical thought.
..why bother?...General Petraeus said what he had to say yesterday...some will hear his words and others won't...
What I see is a man that burned his book. He was making a point that islam is a violent oppressive intolerant religion. What I also see is followers of islam proving his point.
Islam the religion of peace? I don't think so.
And the best way of doing that is by violent oppressive and intolerant actions!
How come you excuse violent Christians as an exception but you label all Muslims as violent because of the actions of a few?
Where do you want to start?
The crusades where Christians went on epic journeys to wage war on Islam?
Or how about all the wars that have been fought "with God on our Side" or all the murderers who claim to be doing gods work?
What about the Spanish Inquisition?
You really are very naive if you think Christianity is not violent.
Okay sooo you can't point to any violent christians today... im not going to debate the crusades with you either, Muslims were just as culpable in those wars.
Here is a quick reference, there is a list of current religious wars on another site if you would like to see it. Or not, I posted it already come to think of it, on another thread.
Lol!!! OMG!! Is THAT the best you can do? That source is full of disputes over the information and the way its presented!
The fact is the loons attempting to point to christian terrorists can't find any that would come anywhere close to what the islamist terrorists heap upon mankind. Over 17000 incidents of islamist terrorism where significant deaths resulted since 9/11 alone!!
Just admit it Islam is a violent, intolerant religion. These people want to kill us period!
I have never denied Islamic violence its right through their book just like the bible. A lot of hate filled dangerous words in there too! but you are correct to say the information on the site is disputed. I like to think the obvious ones are pretty right actually.
Kosova is still having the odd murder and the christians there almost wiped out the muslims at one point. Take a look at the African continent.
If I were defending christian values I would not consider even one murder in the name of my religion to be satisfactory. Why kill over a belief?
You mean the ethnic cleansing of non muslims in Sudan for example?
Im sure you can find examples of christian wrong doing and in the case of Kosovo the USA intervened on the Muslim's behalf as we have elsewhere and what has that gotten us? Terrorist attacks by muslim jihadists! Muslims are more free to practice their religion here in the USA than anywhere and yet we continue to be a target of Muslim terrorists.
Erm, it wasn't Muslims that marched, on foot, thousands of miles to wage war on Christians!
But if you want up to date examples you'll get them, it was late last night. But I don't think you really do, head in sand , you would argue against them.
Yup should read up on the history of the crusades. Do you think the Christians just decided one day to kill Muslims?
Basically, yes. The intent was to impose Christianity on the Holy Land.
Yeah way to change history. You need to go back and review the period.
http://www.christian-community.org/libr … sades.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/ … rusad.html
Just a couple of sources that will give you some perspective if you choose to actually inform yourself of the truth.
What are these obscure websites you seem to find? I hope you don't actually get your sense of what's going on in the world from these?
Just a couple of highly biased sources.
http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism … t-as-islam
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-d-m … 17031.html
Right no bias in your sources! Lol! Look the crusades is an extensive topic you can't just take a snap shot in time of your choosing and claim these people are evil. As I said originally there was culpability on all sides.
again your comparing 100 years ago to today! yes those animals are about 100 years behind but still you make excuses for them.. wake up with your nonsense.all you do is spew your socialist opinions...who cares your from the UK anyway you do not know America you never lived here and we do not want to be like you.
Hey brain box, Afghanistan is not in America.
brainless box show me where I said Afghan was part of the US? keep spinning and twisting things.
Well what has my being British got to do with anything then?
We were discussing events in Afghanistan, but I do appreciate that is a bit hard for you to grasp.
Can we get this straight; NOBODY IS EXCUSING THE PEOPLE WHO MURDERED THE UN PERSONEL HERE AND NOBODY IS "GIVING MUSLIMS A PASS", so stop harping on about it.
We know that these actions have been taken out of context and twisted for a particular political agenda by immams in Afghanistan - just as the Danish cartoons of Mohammed were a few years back.
In my opinion what the pastor did was a publicity stunt that was intentionally inflamatory and should not have happened. He should have known better.
I was going to say something similar to this, but you saved me the trouble.
Maybe you should review the thread a number of people think the preacher is at least partially responsible for the violence and death.
Again the preacher had a right to do what he did even if he knew people would be angry and insulted.
Where does it end? He has the right to burn the Koran, does he have the right to burn a mosque, a Muslim, does he have the right to bomb?
How do you go from burning a book, the preachers private property, to bombing mosques? Which I would say is okay if the mosque is the preacher's private property.
now your stretching things way out of hand as usual! how do you say next he will burn a mosque or people???? this is what you socialist/liberals do spin BS. this really has to be the most ridiculous thing you wrote. hands down!
You have a right to free speech and spew your liberal nonsense, what is next your words incite a riot and people get killed...are you to blame???
so if you upset a far right person and he goes out and kills someone because of your socialist views you should be in jail for murder?
Charles Manson didn't actually kill anybody.
actually he was there for one of the murders! and he also specifically said to KILL. keep twisting so it fits your socialist views!
Thanks, I'll leave the twisting to you though, you're so much better at it.
LOL yeah, keep twisting even your buddy said you were wrong on the minimum wage. and that you got it wrong. are you chubby checker?
Who is my buddy?
And when did a disagreement prove that I was wrong.
John Holden wrote:
part of you were wrong! in case your blind also.
So you're saying that if I go out tomorrow for a job digging holes in the road I will be able to demand the wage that I want, and get it.
I don't think so.
Of course you wouldn't, because you would be taking the wrong tactic to do so, but you didn't think of that.
Jobs- wages are dictated
Self-employment- wages are set.
Oh Jeez, he's finally blown a fuse.
Not everybody has the ability to be self employed.
Islamaphobia in full flower. Religious bigotry is truly ugly. The religions invoked are irrelevant.
Yeah, that's the "ugly" part, not the part where human beings were killed by a slavering, savage mob....
Where the hell are the priorities...?
Ten minutes later these same characters will be competing to outdo each other in villifying Christianity (a lack of abject fear makes a difference, I guess).
Where is the phobia and the bigotry in what I said Doug?
You people on the left are disgraceful! You Schummer, Reid and the bunch that get together and decide what inflamatory descriptions to use for those that disagree with you. You have no argument that makes sense so you restort to dinigration you distract and disparage.
Again nothing is said by the left about Muslim persecution of Christians or desecration of their symbols. That's okay with the left!
More evidence liberals are evil!
Which is why I am strongly against enshrining things like "hate speech" in law, and why I don't think this pastor should be prosecuted for what he did. NONETHELESS, he did what he did in the full knowledge that some fundamentalist nutters somewhere in the Middle East would probably go on the rampage. So I personally would think he bears some moral responsibility. He's certainly not a fit representative of the Christian faith, which is supposed to be about peace & love, isn't it? Or have I got that totally wrong?
Seeing as it's my post you're replying to, I'll assume you're lumping me in with those "people". Let me assure you that I'm not giving the ones who murdered those UN officials a "pass".
Got some data to back that up?
I think that it would also be true that in western europe, noone has killed more than christian on christian violence; In northern India Sikh on Muslim; in Papua New Guinea animist on animist.
See my point? More people are killed by the people around them than living elsewhere. More people are killed by domestic dogs each year than sharks. If you barely ever come into contact with something, then it's very unlikely you'll be killed by it.
Of course but even in countries where muslims jews and christians live side by side the overwhelming deaths of muslims are caused by muslims. So all this talk about.Muslim persecution is BS.
Not in Palestine. There the deaths are caused by fanatical Israelis.
right not by them going on buses and blowing themselves up! your deranged my fried and an anti-Semite.
You mean Israel don't you? Well surprise, even there more Muslims are killed by Muslims.
Charles Manson is doing life in prison. He never killed anyone.
The "Ice Princess" in New Hampshire...same thing. She is doing life in prison for allegedly leading a young man into killing her husband. The young man who actually shot her husband got less time than she did.
Where is Manson's free speech?
He spoke, people died....he got sent away right along with the killers.
Conspiracy to committ murder.
The murderers are guilty of murder
The 'pastor' is guilty of being a complete @#%@%@, unworthy of being called a 'Christian', let alone a 'pastor'.. and willing to put lives in jeapordy for no other reasons than his own publicity
I just love the way pastors stand in judgement over all things with no authority other than their own declarations. They then lead others down the same path.
Does anybody remember Jim Jones or David Koresh?
there you go.
What's disturbing are the lengths that people will go to defend their political and religious beliefs - anyone can see that clearly on these threads. I really see no difference. Political views become like a religion. Allegiance is given to some idealistic 'doctrine' which has nothing to do with real life and the consequences which follow.
yes but we are not savages and killing people . getting mad and doing violent acts are two different things.
hmm, you haven't heard about the 'Kill team' ? do a simple google search, about 6, 610,000 results to choose from.
Do we even want to begin counting how many innocent civilians have had their lives taken away because we're going around blowing up places where we don't need to be?
Would we even be there if violent muslims didn't fly airplanes into our buildings?
Sorry you can compare war in defense of our nation with violent agressor extremists.
If history is worth anything, yes - we would be there or somewhere. We got about 30 plus regime "changes" under our belt in the last 100 years or so. South America doesn't get too muc attention -though it should. And I assure you, these "others" didn't fly airplanes into our buildings. Of course we aren't the only ones guilty of it. Look up European empiralism sometime - it's a pretty interesting read. Then see how we took up the banner at the turn of the last century of there abouts.
I'm answering his response.
We've been there far too long. Too many lives have been lost.
Wrong, Afghanistan is at war to defend its nation, we are an invading army.
No that is where the terrorist taliban training camps plotted the attacks and trained the Saudi killers that attacked the US.
So! It doesn't alter the fact that we are an invading army.
Fine we're an invading army but we didn't ask for this fight! You can't just come to our country kill 3000 inocent people ( some of which were muslims) and destroy millions of dollars of property and not expect a response. The fact is they wanted this response this occupation so they could fight us. They are violent intolerant hateful miserable people that deserve to die.
But you can go into other countries and kill and destroy with complete immunity, is that it?
How many millions of damage did you do in the first gulf war? How many thousands of people did you kill in that war?
We did ask for the fight and we got it. Don't expect everybody to play by your rules. If you attack people they will retaliate in any way they can.
I'm not saying that it's right or fair, but it is entirely predictable.
Wait a minute! The international community asked us for help in the first gulf war to turn back the agressor Saddam Hussein!
But you so like to be seen as the most powerful country in the world that it's only natural that you should be first in line for any retaliation.
If it were up to me I wouldn't help any of you! Id happily sit back and watch as one by one your nations fell to violent oppressive regimes. Fact is America doesn't need any of you and wed all be better of without having to spend our lives and treasures supporting your socialist society of takers.
how are you comparing war to civilians? if they did not have the Taliban or hiding Osama you might have a point.
I'm not comparing war to civilians...
and I don't like the phrase, 'collateral damage'.. war should be swift and targeted, not drawn out for a decade.
I agree with that, It should be swift but unfortunately they have caves and the terrain is very hard, Russia had many years and could not defeat them. Look the war in Afghan is justifiable. the Iraq war was BS. but we can not make excuses for these cavemen. seriously a lot not all are just looking for war, they believe they must fight the non-Muslims and get their 50 virgins. I know not all Muslims are bad but they have many that are and it certainly seems the good ones do not stand up against this? If it is not the US they will find someone else and you know it.
Are the Muslim murderers worthy of membership in the " religion of peace"?
I don't know.. but I'm not about to pass judgment on Islam based on the action of these murderers... and I hope that Muslims do not judge Christianity based on the actions of this 'pastor'
No but you're happy to pass judgement on the pastor!
Because the pastor is one person - therefore there is no need top apply a generalisation.
I see so if you're a mob of murderers you shouldn't be judged... I see:rolleyes:
God you're irritating - you're getting your cheque's worth today! If you don't get paid for these posts, then you should apply for that job posted on one of the forums last week - you fit the description perfectly - coincidentally.
It is unfair to judge a religion of one billion on the actions of a small mob in an obscure town in Afghanistan. However, judging a pastor who is out for nothing but personal gain and acting for himself can be judged.
You know this, you've done (professionally) well in teasing a response from me!
I would not presume to know what motivated the pastor so I would have to take him at his word that he wanted to prove islam a violent and intolerant religion.
That said I will concede most muslims are not like the rioters but polls have shown that aproximately 1% os all 1.6 billion muslims are radical and maybe as much as 10% agree with their views. That's a lot of pent up potential for violence!
And what percentage of Americans show support for violent retribution?
Bet it's higher than 10%.
It may be... but I think that's to be expected when you go around killing innocent people, beheading them on video etc. Seems violence is what these people want.
So you admit that the average American is more blood thirsty than radical Islam!
Where did you get that?? Lol!
No one is more blood thirsty than the jihadists which will happily sacrifice their sons and daughters in the suicidal murder of innocents to advance their "peaceful" religion.
i do condemn them for their acts of murder.
What I said is that the 'pastor' is not acting in accordance with my own personal idea of Christianity. I have a certain understanding of what Christianity is based on the fact that I am a Christian.
I can not judge whether the murders are acting in accordance with the Islam faith because I am not a Muslim and don't have a deep understanding of the religion.
If i had to guess however, based upon the 100s of Muslim people who I have met who have not slaughtered people, then I would assume that these killers are radicals fundamentalists, who are sadly very common in that part of the world, but not part of the main stream of Islam.
Ultra violence has nothing to do with religion. It is those who need to be reminded, that these books were made for.
Law abiding folks need not worry about these things. As, if you treat your neighbour as you wish to be treated, then your conscience is clear
I'm certainly not making excuses for those who perpetuated such violent acts on our country. I was simply responding to your comment earlier in the thread. Too many innocent lives have been lost, billions of dollars have been spent, we have war weary soldiers and commanders. At some point along the way, we have lost our focus. I hope that General Petraeus can stay focused and help to bring an end to this terrible period in our history. It doesn't help when American religious fanatics are burning the Koran, of which he said before he would not do. The irony is pathetic.
This is pure absurdity. That if a christian is a terrorist, burn Bible, if a muslim is a terrorist, burn Quran, if a jew is a terrorist (oh i'm sorry that cannot happen), so lastly if a hindu is a terrorist, burn geeta so on & so forth. Right ?
What if an Athiest is a terrorist, what book should we burn ? There must be some book which is responsible & not the athiest himself, right ?
A man was violent even when he wasn't following a religion.
So burning all the religious books won't make man peaceful. Infact finding a common ground might help us in pursuing peace & inter-religion harmony.
Certainly got me convinced that religion causes nothing but conflict.
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