According to the Saddleback Debate - Obama doesn't "know" when a baby should be given rights as a human. In Chicago, Illinois there was a great debate over this when Obama was an Illinois Senator - at different points he chaired the committee: What do you think about what this article says about those days- and Obama's answers last week?
In February 2004, U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the "alarming news" that "right-wing politicians" had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls.
Michelle called partial-birth abortion "a legitimate medical procedure," and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against "cynical ploy[s]" to stop it?
But that's not why Obama's opponent Alan Keyes said Jesus Christ wouldn't vote for him.
Obama recalled Keyes' statement in a recent USA Today opinion piece but omitted his reasoning.
I know his reasoning, because I was there.
As a nurse at an Illinois hospital in 1999, I discovered babies were being aborted alive and shelved to die in soiled utility rooms. I discovered infanticide.
Legislation was presented on the federal level and in various states called the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. It stated all live-born babies were guaranteed the same constitutional right to equal protection, whether or not they were wanted.
BAIPA sailed through the U.S. Senate by unanimous vote. Even Sens. Clinton, Kennedy and Kerry agreed a mother's right to "choose" stopped at her baby's delivery.
The bill also passed overwhelmingly in the House. NARAL went neutral on it. Abortion enthusiasts publicly agreed that fighting BAIPA would appear extreme. President Bush signed BAIPA into law in 2002.
But in Illinois, the state version of BAIPA repeatedly failed, thanks in large part to then-state Sen. Barack Obama. It only passed in 2005, after Obama left.
I testified in 2001 and 2002 before a committee of which Obama was a member.
Obama articulately worried that legislation protecting live aborted babies might infringe on women's rights or abortionists' rights. Obama's clinical discourse, his lack of mercy, shocked me. I was naive back then. Obama voted against the measure, twice. It ultimately failed.
In 2003, as chairman of the next Senate committee to which BAIPA was sent, Obama stopped it from even getting a hearing, shelving it to die much like babies were still being shelved to die in Illinois hospitals and abortion clinics.
(As chair of that same committee, Obama once abruptly ended a hearing early, right before Scott and Janet Willis, the parents of six children killed as a result of Illinois' drivers licenses for bribes scandal, were to testify in favor of Choose Life license plate legislation. I was there for that one, too. The Willises had traveled three hours. Reporters filled the room. Obama stalled. He later killed the bill when no one was around.)
So, the reason Keyes said Jesus Christ wouldn't vote for Barack Obama was because of Obama's fanatical support of abortion to the point of condoning infanticide.
I have framed on my wall a Chicago Sun-Times cartoon published during the campaign. Obama is holding a sign with "LIVE BIRTH ABORTION" on it. God is reaching down from heaven to a baby in front of Obama, and the baby is reaching up to God. Obama is yelling at God, "You keep out of this!"
(For a picture of the cartoon see link below - remarkably, this is the same liberal Sun Times that wrote this, """"We are returning to our liberal, working-class roots, a position that pits us squarely opposite the Chicago Tribune -- that Republican, George Bush-touting paper over on moneyed Michigan Avenue. We're rethinking our stance on several issues, including the most pressing issue facing Americans today: Bush's war in Iraq.""""
Seems they got what Obama was talking about. Cute cartoon.)
In his USA Today opinion piece, Obama admitted being "nagged" by the Jesus-wouldn't-vote-for-him statement, but only because he wished he'd given a different comeback.
Obama insinuated opposition to abortion is based only on religion, lecturing pro-lifers like me to "explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all."
I don't recall mentioning religion when I testified against live-birth abortion. I only recall describing a live aborted baby I held in a hospital soiled utility room until he died, and a live aborted baby who was accidentally thrown into the trash.
Neither do I recall religion being brought into the partial-birth abortion ban debate. I recall comparisons made to U.S. laws ensuring animals being killed are treated humanely. I recall testimony that late-term babies feel excruciating pain while being aborted.
Obama stated pro-life proposals must be "amenable to reason."
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008 … mamp3.html
VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_ … 38;fs=1%22
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 … icide.html
Combating your misinformation is fun.
Keep it coming.
Are these anti-abortionist men ever to be found at home taking care of all these kids, that are so precious to them before they are born. Taking care of young'uns is so difficult, that many men would rather run off to war and get themselves killed and maimed for life, than take care of children.
It's convenient to be pro-life and anti-gay when you're a straight Christian man. You never run the risk of violating these two, very specific "transgressions."
Funny that divorce, murder, intolerance, and other forms of violence, all of which Jesus explicitly condemned don't exactly invoke the same sort of public commitment to compliance. Maybe the door needs to be kept open for those?
Everyone eats at the "cafeteria" when it comes to X-tianity, whether it is liberals, moderates, conservatives, or traditionalists.
The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop the delusion.
The problem is that fundamentalists are the most likely (obviously) to pretend they're not picking-and-choosing, and following the word of the Bible to the letter. But it's clear they do even more cherry-picking about what to obsess about than more mainstream Christians.
Liberals and moderates are under no illusion that they don't follow everything to the letter. For some, the term "cafeteria Catholic", for example, is a term they readily accept for themselves.
Zarm, if you're gonna expose me - at least make sense. I "DID NOT" say Obama supported infanticide. I asked, what does he believe concerning aborted babies.
I like the fact-check you posted. I particularly liked these facts.
Obama, in an Aug. 16 interview, then said critics of his "born alive" stance were "not telling the truth" and "lying."
A June 30 Obama campaign statement responding to similar claims by conservative commentator William J. Bennett says that SB 1082 did not contain the same language as the federal BAIPA.
The statement was still on Obama's Web site as of this writing, Aug. 25, long after Obama had accused his detractors of "lying."
But Obama's claim is wrong.
In fact, by the time the HHS Committee voted on the bill, it did contain language identical to the federal act.
Obama’s campaign now has a different explanation for his vote against the 2003 Illinois bill.
But whether or not one accepts those arguments, it is not the reason Obama had been giving for his 2003 opposition.
If you're going to use Fact-check - at least get your facts right Zarm. I posted the lady's post and link - because she was an eye witness to the events both at the hospital and at the hearings. I did not say I agreed with her conclusions - you assumed that.
Here's what I ASKED at the top of this forum.
""""What do you think about what this article says about those days- and Obama's answers last week?"""
Slow down Zarm - in your haste to demolish conservative X-tians at every turn - don't leave yourself open to appearances of hate speechlessness.
I don't judge you by your intentions I judge you by your actions, a person can easily mask intentions (and most do). Your actions show that you consistently will post things slanted a certain way in haste in order to convey a certain idea (even if the facts might show otherwise later on).
Also, unlike the major world religions/spirituality I do not pretend to not hate.
Hate is very real and I won't cloak it under the guise of Love and call it "tough" or "Christ like".
I will call a spade a spade, and I will keep doing it.
I won't "tell it like it is" but I will call a spade a spade. That I will do.
I don't care if 4 billion other people want to call their intense dislike "Love".
And I will consistently make no bones about it.
I know you have good intentions, I know there are very good aspects to what you believe.
I contend that you are practicing a very ancient form of self deception, old as the hills.
Profound as your ambivalence may be, you still hate just like every other believer out there. If you did not hate, then you would have no purpose. You cannot detest the sin and love the sinner because people are the sum of their actions (as well as other things).
I care not whether it is liberal, or moderate, or conservative, or w/e.
When I Love I call it Love, and when I Hate I call it what it is.
Tell me of the "Love" you have for an abortionist.
On an end note, all I did was say it was fun to combat your misinformation.
Presume to know much about what I thought you were contending versus what I posted?
I didn't say a word about that and I still won't.
You are grasping at thin air.
Come on prophecy liar, you are just "spinning" all over the place here.
First it was "Proof that the bible prophecies are true regarding the Jews" then "Is Obama lying about his birth certificate? Then "Were there really giants in the bible?" and then "What Does Obama Believe Concerning Aborted Babies Born Alive?"
If I posed a question such as :
"Christians lie at every opportunity and cannot tell the truth ever. Conclusive proof that all christians murder babies every day says an old lady in Massachusetts. What are your thoughts on the matter?" You don't think there is an agenda behind the way the question is posed, and I can say, "Well, I never said I thought this, I was just asking....."
You are the perfect christian and I once again thank you and your ilk for opening my eyes to what your religion is all about.
I love you
This would be funny if it weren't so pathetic--a bunch of guys worrying over the finer points of abortion rights vis a vis Scripture. Why don't you worry about if you will have a job by the end of this year? Worry about if there will be polar ice caps by next year. Worry about how you will heat your house this winter or that mammoth hurricane spinning towards New Orleans right now, again, or the fact that the national debt is just about at the point where we can't even pay the interest on it.
But seriously, Prophecy Dude, if you don't want to have an abortion then just don't have one.
94.3% of all Americans are employed - a near record high. Why should we worry?
I expended all my energy in the 70's worrying about global cooling. I can't possibly muster enough energy to worry about Global Warming - especially if Gore is the premiere spokesperson (who btw - will not and continuously refuses to debate the subject) Were you around then? You should have seen the "proofs" and hysteria. Seen it before. Bought into it. Nit interested. But hang in there...
Worry about heating my home? - (how did this reach the top of your list?)
I have no power over hurricanes. But I did see an ad from New Orleans showing the same hedonistic behavior that city is known for. It was a Madi Gras ad - It said "New Orleans - Open for business again"
I live in Dallas. You should have been here 3 years ago when the 1000's of folk from New O came here. Our crime level went up in this city in proportion to the refugees. Really. And they didn't all go back. They stayed here all over Texas taking our hospitality. I'm more worried about our city than their city. They have been warned for 30 years to reinforce those levies. They have studied it for decades. And then they blame the greatest disaster in 400 years on the American continent on Bush. That evil man - that personification of evil.
The national debt??? I vote people into office that won't spend my money by taxing me more - or borrow to spend money I and the constitution don't authorize them to. But worrying about it past that is unprofitable. You can have my share of worry. Other than that - I try my best not to buy Chinese products - even while our government listens to Chinese propaganda.
Abortion? You tell me when life begins - and we won't call it a finer point - we'll call it a fact.
A little girl wanted to be President. Her parents were very liberal and had taught her how to use other people's money to solve problems. When asked what she would do if she were President - she said, "I would spend money giving all the homeless people a new home."
The man who had asked her the question said she could do something practical right now, today.
"What?" She excitedly asked?
"Well," he said, "you can come over to my house and clean up the dog poop in my back yard and I'll pay you $20. Then you can give a homeless man the money and he can begin to save for his house."
The little girl thought it over for quite a while, and then a little while longer, and said. "Why don't you just get the homeless man to come over and clean the poop - and then you can pay him the $20?"
With a smile of self satisfaction at the cleverness of her answer, the little girl waited for a response.
The man said, "Welcome to the Republican Party!"
It's funny when these old posts are resurrected. And slightly painful with this same old stupid doublespeak concerning partial birth abortions. Eeeeeee... It's depressing. The cute little girl analogy was one of the dumbest and least cognizant things I've read recently.
Interesting that Ms. Pam seemed to be correct about the economy, though.
I'm confident you're Democrat and you have bought into the hysteria that everything in America is awful and the sky is falling. I've lived long enough to listen to this stuff every 4 years. It's like a broken record. The poor are poorer, the rich are richer, we're in awful shape, our friends hate us, we're lied to, the Republicans are sinister, be afraid, be very afraid; we can't go on like this - on and on and on.
I go into people's homes everyday. They are stuffed with so many things it's hilarious. I can't walk through most of them. Our garage sales are like new store openings in most countries. We spend more money on coffee and pets than half the world's countries GDP.
The sky is falling the sky is falling.
But we keep getting richer, the square footage of our homes is bigger than ever, the numbers of our cars is higher and higher and the number per home is increasing. Everyone I know has TV's bigger than my imagination. I see overweight people at every turn. All our cities are manicured and groomed and everywhere I see people with more leisure time than ever before. More kids are going to college than ever before, and every town I see all over America has booming written all over it. 6 months ago - the nation had back orders for high rise cranes because there is so much construction.
Yesterday we're told the economy grew at a "robust 3.3%" - but hang in there - the recession that is going to wipe us all away is coming.
Are there problems? Of course. But geez golly buckwheat. New home sales are down after the greatest run in world history. VALUES are still higher by leaps and bounds than before the run.
Gas? Europeans pay twice as much as us and don't whine about it. Only in America - the land of the painless and home of the slaves to fear.
We're fat, have way too much leisure time, and have lost real perspective of what it is to need. But don't worry - the Democrats will save us from our imaginations.
The Democrat Party exists on fear based on promises of Hope - to resolve the fears. The people of the United States have only elected Jimmy Carter (ick) and B Clinton in the last several decades - as Democrats. That says a whole lot more about Democrat Platforms than all the debate possible.
During Jimmy's brief tenure - which we're still paying for - interest rates rose to 21%. I remember selling real estate to people back then saying " buy now - who knows how high it'll be later". I used to tell them to lock in low prices NOW. (While I was secretly telling them about Global cooling)
I remember when Iran fell to Islamic Extremism. And how humiliated we were to have so many of our people paraded before us for 444 days. I used to sit and listen to all the rationale and all the pseudo threats we made to Iran. Then we sent what, 6 helicopters to go get em.
That was and still is - Democrat philosophy.
I remember real unemployment of 12-15%. It was awful. New York went bankrupt and Jimmy told us we were all in a malaise. More like he was in mayonnaise.
The Democrats embrace the fringe of society and coral them to the middle of what is left of the Democrat party and call it diversity. They've lost so many of their core group over the last 30 years - they have to embrace anything in order to have a party.The Democrats stand for everything as long as it isn't conservative. If they ever embrace anything conservative - their party will fall apart.
That's why they put Miss Eisenhower on last night. Why, oh my, her Daddy was the great Republican. The Mr General sir, - Wow look at this - if Eisenhower's Granddaughter is deserting the party - what does that say about all our fears. They must be right. (That's the image the Democrats were attempting to portray - but that's them isn't it - appearances over substance?)
But what they didn't tell you is that she is Gay. That's why she is a member of the Democrat Party. I don't care that she's Gay - honest. But it's a little disingenuous to use her that way. But Democrats can manipulate sex for politics right? Republicans can't. And now that I've pointed it out - I'm sure I'll be called a homophobe - which I'm not. I'm pointing out hipocracy not sexuality.
There's no balance in the fears of their party. Al Gore, "He played on our fears." No he didn't. WE WERE AFRAID!!!!!!! The extremists that Jimmy Carter let loose had come home to roost - as Reverend Jeremiah doo da Obama Wright - would say.
Democrats do the expedient. Do you really think the Hope from Hawaii - sat in a church for 20 years, GOT MARRIED THERE, BAPTIZED HIS DAUGHTERS THERE, ATE THERE, TALKED THERE AND BELIEVED THERE, and didn't have a clue about what his preacher was saying about the concepts of Black Liberation Theology? That's laughable. Does he then embrace the people he loved for 20 years? No - of course not. He dumps his church and his pastor for the higher purpose of saving us.
Oh, gotta run. McCain is announcing his VP. (I'll email him about the hurricane)
Doesn't your good book say something about the people in the time of Noah eating and drinking and making merry right up until the flood waters came?
You seriously have no sense of what is wrong in this country, even some of your fellow republicans like Chuck Hagel know things are headed in the wrong direction.
My book says the everyone will be doing those things right up and until the end comes. A few will understand the signs and most will not. EVERTHING will seem normal - until the flood comes. Noah and his boat - were a sign. Noah preached for 100 years and got not one convert. Why? They were self-satisfied. Smug. Brilliant. And they SAW no evidence that what Noah said was true. They couldn't see it - so it wasn't possible.
Same with the 3 million Jews who were preached to by the disciples for 40 years. They saw the miracles and witnessed the prophecies about Jesus come true in front of their eyes. 3 million non-believing Jews died horrible deaths in the destruction of Jerusalem.
But not a single Christian died in the Roman destruction - Josephus tells us. Why? They knew the prophecies - saw it coming and left. But the non-believers stayed and actually believed they knew what was happening.
In the future from here, they are called the ones living in darkness. Conversely, those NOT living in darkness will discern the signs of times - and will not be taken by surprise.
According to the Book - a great delusion will come upon the world and all those who do not follow the Lord - will fall victim to the delusion.
I feel like I have an excellent sense of what is wrong with this country - and - with many of your arguments. For a 26 yr old you have a tremendous biting intelligence - but I believe your experiences have shut you up to an objective look at primitive Christianity. There is no doubt that many denominations and sects of Christianity are way out there and misguided. But the same can be said for the 5 sisters of Atheism and pantheism/panetheism on these forums. They rarely agree, give confusing refutations and can not with any consistency make rational arguments against very valid premises.
Believing that they start from an invincible position as to the onus being on Theists to prove their points first - they willing ignore that their own position is indefensible. But hiding behind their naked defense - they argue points irrelevant to the fundamental issues. They do argue them brilliantly, and with incredible - what's the word they religiously use - hubris. But there is no conclusions to their points - there are only more points. And more points and more points. To actually Believe something - means moral certitude. That's why it's easier to nuance rather than to decide.
That's also why Democrats generally understand everything - except conservatism - and go on to accomplish very little. They can't actually conclude their understanding. They actually enjoy reveling in their darkness of endless parsing and nuance.
In their consistent use of the word Hubris - it reminds me when all the Democrats were using the word Gravitas as their adjective of the season 4 years ago.
Hubris - sounds like hubcap lint.
Look it up - they say - with all earnestness. Look it up and learn something boy.
And Chuck Hagel - didn't he play for the Packers?
I don't think things are nearly as black and white as you perceive them to be.
It wasn't atheists and agnostics that handed Hitler the theological justification he needed to persecute Jews.
If there is ever theological justification needed for the wholesale persecution of Muslims, I doubt it will be atheists and agnostics that give such a thing to the people in power.
Don't give me the impetus to bust out quotes in context on you.
I did it when you started glorifying the Puritans, I can do it again.
We've been at war 1400 years. If "Theological" justification hasn't been found or used during that long period - it is unlikely it will in our day either. According to the prophecies - it is the Islamic world led by a madman that attacks the West - the rest of the world fights in DEFENSE. I have no where advocated war - and I don't think others do either.
On the other hand - inaction in the face of the clear and present danger of Fundamentalism is naive.
It has, it was called the Crusades, and your language matches it.
I agree - just a few days ago, some one on these very forums said America should have used nukes in Iraq, and in the same breath said she was pro-life and against abortion. A blood-bought christian, sure in the knowledge she is going to heaven who also believes evolution is a lie and should not be taught in schools.
A clear and present danger indeed.
Good for you PT - finally coming around to a sensible point of view.
What do you suggest we do about it?
Please don't judge the majority by the surely ridiculous actions of a few. I consider myself a Christian but think it absolutely absurd that anyone could consider using nukes in Iraq. To be pro-life is to be pro-life in every category. The same reason I believe killing babies to be wrong also compels me to believe killing abortion doctors, homosexuals, and other groups considered "sinful" to be wrong. There is a radical fringe group "attached" to just about every major group in the United States. Should be judge Democrats by Green Peace, Republicans by Alex Jones, or Muslims by Osama? Surely not. One must be level-headed and reasonable at all times.
And yet you kill people for money. Good for you...........
I don't seem to remember you answering my answers about the Puritans. And I believe the world is black and white. I believe there is a battle between good and evil and man is in the middle. I believe there is a personal God and he can be known through the creation he made. I also believe he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him - and many have this reward - otherwise seeking Him would be pointless. Anyone who says it's pointless can not know the reward of knowing God as an active agent in their lives.
Saying it isn't so - may be comforting - but it's not rational. If God can be known through humility - why not humble yourself towards God. Not towards me - or my arguments - or my denomination - but God Himself?
Starting from the position that there's no sense seeking God since there's no proof He exists ignores the vastness of the universe and the standing evidences of historical time. It may be enjoyable to understand in infinite detail the vastness of rhetorical language and cosmological debates and philosophical derivatives of nuanced molecular semantics. But in the end - at the end of the day - we eat - we poop and die. In between those necessities - the vastness of the universe is the standing offer from God saying HUMBLE yourself unto Me and I WILL lift you up. He doesn't say you will have the prefect answers to all of life's more brainiac considerations. But He does guarantee that He will DO something if you will first. And you can do it in secret.
You wont find that in a mathematical equation or a Richard Dawkins God delusion.
We're not deceived - we know our relationship with God. It is pointless to debate God as one creature to another - for evidence God doesn't exist. It's a personal proof between you and God. (It's only pointless if you do not wish to consider other evidences.)
The proof is in the act of contrition. You need to ask God to reveal Himself - from a humble position. And then He will.
We're a puff; a poof; barely worth mentioning. But we allow our arguments to tower over us as if they are battering rams - and in what - 30 years - 40 years - we take the accumulative wisdom of our peers and teachers - and say - yeah. I BELIEVE that.
And it works - until the next generation comes and says - nah - that's so 90's. So will your arguments eventually be.
I did give you quotes regarding the puritan theocracies.
Nice try though.
Come back and modify your lying please.
Actually, wait no, you didn't "lie" you just conveniently "forgot" all those posts I made about things like the Arbella Covenant (and they were heavily referenced posts).
You lied to yourself first, then to me second.
You're well read - try this:
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatc … /0829.html
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatc … /main.html
Oh yes, Zarm - the Crusades. The Christians attempting to take back the Holy land - and to set up a buffer for the Byzantium Empire - after the Muslims took it. More or less.
What would you call the Spaniards pushing the Moors back off the Peninsula to Africa where they came from. A crusade? It's the same thing.
When the Muslim armies were at the gates of Vienna and Christianity fought back - was that a Crusade? You take things out of historical context so often in attempting to make points. The Crusades did not happen in a vacuum.
So what's the point in saying - OH YEAH - the Crusades!!!
But using the illustration as often as you have (Elsewhere) is like taking WW2 and using that to prove our aggression in making Japan, Korea and the tigers - capitalistic.
Further, I've been very patient for about a month now - and have never responded to yours and Mark's continued use of calling me a liar. I don't know - I guess it finally has begun to bother me.
I would ask for you to be a little more civil and not take your arguments so seriously if we are to continue talking. None of our discussions require that.
I suggest you are too cynical to have a point by point discussion with. But that's just me.
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