I stumbled through my mind onto a curious thought: Are Evangelicals actually Christians? It appears to me that they are in fact a new version of Christianity, that accepts the personage of Jesus, but ignores his teachings in favor of Old Testament thought.
If one accepts Jesus, the single covenant the he said eliminated the Mosaic covenant, then the taking care of the poor, meek shall inherit the earth, get slapped so you turn the other cheek, etc...would be the mindset. Instead, in the post Frank Schaeffer/Fallwell/Robertson era, they appear to covet the laws of the Old Testament rather than the new Testament.
Christianity by name, in the United States, appears to have been hijacked by a megachurch crowd who claims to be Christian, but ignores what actually separates it, except for this concept of Jesus that doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything attributed to the actual guy.
I couldn't agree more. The evangelicals are very much 'eye for an eye' people rather than 'turning the other cheek.' I personally do not believe that if Christ were walking the Earth today that he would recognise this form of Christianity. The anger some of these evangelicals direct towards those that do not share their views does not reflect the peace of the Jesus of the Bible. No matter what they practise, if they have not love in their hearts for their fellow man, then they are not following Christ's teachings or example. Trying to get them to recognise this though is almost impossible.
"... [A] short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandising their oppressors in Church and State; that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man, has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves; that rational men not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do in fact constitute the real Anti-Christ."
--Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Kercheval, 1810 (see Positive Atheism's Historical section)
"they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus"
How true and coincidental that I have just been watching a discussion which mentioned the fact that for centuries the Church burnt people at the stake for reading the Bible in their own language. Far from wanting to spread the message of Christ, the Church has throughout its history tried to keep it from the masses, because they would realise that the teachings of Christ are not those of the Church.
Amen! The non-evangelicals tend to be more rational and tolerant--eg, Unitarians, Quakers, Church of Christ, Episcopalians.
Not very many truly are.... This is my humble opinion.
Actually it is not up to me to judge anyone. Only I can judge myself. I must love others it is Mater's wish. There is no one who is without fault. This is why Jesus (Yeshua) died. Christians and rest depend upon grace and trying to do best. We prayed for great revival and now people are unhappy of Mega-churches. But I forgive them.
Only the fact is man has to be justified and God give him pardon. This is about all. We must go to streets and pray for our country.
Well, all I know is that MY Christianity -- which is the ORIGINAL AND STILL BESTEST ONE -- believes in both Old Testament and New Testament. .
Seriously, TB, you raise an excellent point.
There is a lovely song I remember from my childhood...
"...and they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love."
That is Jesus talking right there.
The "Christians" you're asking about remind me of another lovely song from my childhood:
"... you've lost that loving feeling, whoa that loving feeling. You've lost that loving feeling, now it's gone, gone, gone..."
we are so far from the Truth of what the Man actually said. If at all...
Most of it now is watered down to fit the money church, large population, big donations. Most is alterd to fit the money influence, nothing more.
no bank for the buck. Most are caught in a delimina between the contradictions of the O.T. and the N.T. and can not consile the two parts.
from what I have seen in the southern U.S.A. Most evangelicals, are caught up in the Law, and not to much in the Grace. The Mega Churches preach the Grace. The argument goes on and on, no solutions, no reral acceptance of each other. so who knows?
A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Christ.
Jahovah's witnesses don't which means they're not Christian, for example. Evangelicals sometimes get the emphasis wrong.
Thats true ,I used to -get it wrong,but I try to focus on the loving part for everyone, black ,white ,pink an blue ,short ,fat ,in between ,Christian ,Atheist, Muslim.
Thats the part that makes me sad about many religions ,they make it quite clear they would prefer you be like them,to be part of their great big family...honestly some of these people look so miserable ,unhappy and downright mean ,who would want to be part of that family
"It appears to me that they are in fact a new version of Christianity, that accepts the personage of Jesus, but ignores his teachings in favor of Old Testament thought."
That's a good point. Moreover, they don't strike me as tolerant as was Jesus.
A true Evangelist adheres to the teachings, but does not idolize/worship the man or the works, but walks as the righteous of the OT did, by and only in [rational] faith.
The OT contains so much exemplification of how-to do faith, we cannot ignore it altogether, in favor of a handful of Correspondences (Letters) between some of the believing.
The true purpose of evangelism is to peacefully and gently inform the world of the Good News - Salvation has come (see also John's Revelation of Immanu El concerning this), uplift people, express the fullness of the Spirit and edify the collective (to not just think or know of Creator, but to understand and do according to what Creator purposed man -live life eternally and abundantly, thanks to the sacrifice of Immanu El). True Evangelists should not seek out nor prophecy of darkness, in any manner whatsoever, as they are not prophets. They are supposed to be beacons of light, joy, truth and more, teaching all good things.
Tex, I hope that clarifies.
Rational faith? The most common concept here seems to be that whatever the speaker believes in rational; all other beliefs are irrational and the believer is probably not a "true" christian.
On the other had, I have never heard a rational belief in the honest sense of the word. All belief is based on desire and want rather on verifiable evidence and as a result cannot be considered to be truly rational.
A common concept applies to religion as equally as it does mashed potatoes and silicone chips. Rational faith is quite an all together different animal. Rational faith requires, if not demands, a thoroughness from point A to point B, unwavering in the original vision.
For example, Peter jumping out of the boat, to most is called faith -and most would call that irrational. and it would be, except for the dialogue preceding and understanding of events.
Rational faith dismisses standard Reason, where ration occurs, and dictates practical logic, exemplified by that understanding.
Perhaps theology and science need a overhaul.
..You gotta Hallelujah from me
Filled with the Spirit-Holy Spirit
To blessed to be stressed.
To annointed to be disappointed.
Ok Im showing off ,Im ok really
It is so good to give thanks ,laugh out loud, love likes its you last day on earth ,dance like no ones watching etc
Umm, I can't dance --with or without and audience.
But everything else, I'm in!
Grabs James by the hand -lets twist again ,like we did last summer -oops wrong party
Now square dancing I can do, or free style spinning
Kewl, another dancing partner.
"Swing your PartnerS, do-sa-do."
This is very confusing. Evangelicals only? I have actually read the New Testament and, I have to say, I don't see much in the way of what I've read in the gospels reflected in any of Christianity.
This is very true, but I think it is the evangelicals who shout the loudest, so get the most publicity.
True, there is a lot of shouting, but I'm not at all sure I understand what, exactly, is an evangelical. Don't they all evangelize?
masses. evangelicals try to reach a mass audience.
So, their interpretation isn't what makes them different from the rest of Christianity; just their method of delivering the message?
Emile, there is actually a branch of Protestant Christianity that has become known as "Evangelical." They are primarily Baptists, Pentecostals, Non-Denominational Christians. Within that group are First Baptists, Southern Baptists, Missionary Baptists, Church of God in Christ, Church of Jesus Christ...There are lots of them...but within Christianity as a whole, these are the folks who are generally recognized as "Evangelicals."
What? I thought only Catholics had masses?
No, the Church of England don't evangelise, but they do make a lovely cup of tea, and are never short of a Victoria sponge finger.
I think that "evangelism" is by definition just the action of going out and professing what you believe in.
So, one can be an Atheist Evangelist.
Either way, whatever their religion, they're annoying.
Flesh cannot understand spirit. So you who are skeptic you are excused. Love yea all. Evangelium is good news. It means God already solved problem of sin of unbelief.
Vlad, I disagree slightly in this statement only: The human brain can understand spirit, if it returns to its rightful place, as a mechanic to filter spirit to body, and not the assumedmaster-mond of the human being. The resurrected Immanu El is the first example of this.
And, yes, true evangelism is good news, a message explaining the problem has been solved and now how-to understand the new way of existing.
This is where most modern Christianity is divided from true evangelism because of excessive doctrinal imposition and incorrect teaching.
Jacharless. Thanks for response. I do understand the man is a trinity. He is spirit has the soul and lives in the body. The spirit is alike heat of the man the center. The soul would have headquarter in the head.
It is good help in teaching the Bible for many decades.
All problem of the world is spiritual problem. The mind (the soul) just fallows who is the boss. It fallows either reborn spirit or the flesh. The soul is the servant. The soul - thinking may be troublemaker. Eve was reasoning with Serpent and was deceived.
You know, something always annoyed me about that Eve story. The fruit was eaten gaining knowledge of one's self, eating from the tree of knowledge, expelled as to not eat from the tree of life. Now, what kind of a God considers it a sin to gain knowledge of one's self? Sounds like a bad guy to me.
It was never the tree that was the problem ,it was a lesson in obediance (or not) as was the case
Tex, she gained knowledge of good v evil. In essence, she indulged her own brain, which already had superior understanding. Note how the mental conversation went, how her indulgence of her own thoughts made her doubt who she really was.
Simply said: "Don't partake of the thoughts in yourself, because they are designed to process things, not give you power or more understanding. Their purpose is to keep you above nature, as keeper of it." When anyone indulges themselves, the outcome is always the same -death.
I visualized this event as a super-over the top bombardment of millions of light frequencies in her and Adam. In essence, they went mad! Having never experienced that kind of rush of information.
Adam's reaction puts the nail in the coffin: I am unclothed, removed, beside myself. Creator asks who told him this and he was like "umm...the woman made me do it... That was literally the best he could say. He was stoned on information. Like trying to get information from someone hopped up on drugs or knocked senseless (or nowadays, people locked into their blackberries or video games. Constant information overload.
(if any Floyd fans are reading this reply, they'll appreciate this: Adam became comfortably numb).
Gotcha. I tend to think of knowledge as a good thing, particularly knowledge of good and evil. Why would a God prevent someone from eating from such a tree? Also, why does he refer to "us" as in : "And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."
I'll be forward...the God of the Old Testament appears, from my perspective, to be a horrible figure, resembling more of what we perceive as a "devil" as opposed to a "God." Am I off base? i don't just mean this, I mean the bashing of babies against rocks, genocide, ripping children out of pregnant women in front of their fathers, taking young girls as captives and raping them under his direction, etc.
You appear to have a good base from which you are responding, so that is why I am asking for your opinion, not to attack it or anything.
Tex, one of the major issues with OT is the verbiage. It is rather expressive, glamorous and sometimes scary. But as we know, powerful words are prescribed to get peoples attention. In addition, translating history, passion and prose often is challenging and can sound aloof -especially from Aramaic to Hebrew, then Greek and Roman; then Roman to Germanic Latin.
also, noted: much of the atrocities attributed to God in the OT (meaning what was threatened) never came to pass. It was just that, a threat.
The other atrocities caused by several wars in OT, I can only attribute to human behavior. Also noted is how many times God was not pleased with the Hebrew people's actions toward other people of their own kind and other tribes.
And you said you weren't religious.
How many were killed in the flood? LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Just because I understand the text does not make me religious. I understand Quantum Mechanics also, does that make me a scientist? I understand threading, does that make me a seamstress?
Once again your non sequitur is duly noted.
As an anglo-saxon atheist, disguised as a determinist, one would think, you of all minds would get it by now. Apparently I was mistaken.
ps, how is Beyonce?
(hearty laughter, woo-hoo, ha ha, knee slapping)
James, evil is everywhere. God is merciful. Do you think that Crusaders, Catholics inquisition, Hitler and communists were better? Why do you hate Jew? Do you hate Jesus too? Hate is devils tool.
Slow down Vlad,
I do not hate anyone.
If truth be told, i just might have more Hebrew friends than English friends. We converse much over Torah, as it is one of my deeper intrigues/areas of study.
As for the others you mentioned, the atrocities of humans are just that. Any person who commits such errs against humanity, via religion, atomic drop, medicinal effect, genocide (specifically the Armenian Genocide my Grandmother endured, as an Arab Atheist), dictatorship communism/socialism (of which my wife and many friends endured first hand) and any other guise, is evil.
Evil is not the Devil's tool. As there is no such entity named Lucifer aka the Devil. The term you are implying comes from Judaic reason, specifically defined as a mental disorder, ha-satan is the word. This is Man's mental disorder/dysfunction/madness, his the moment he ate of knowledge and forfeited understanding.
I myself am not humanist, atheist, theist or any other ist -less leaning heavily toward altruist, like the man Immanu El. The Creator's mercy is evident in only those who understand mercy and that grace. Everything else IS of the 'devil', if you understand my meaning.
... good job on judging me for defining a word...
... yeah... that was ... impressive....
"So, one can be an Atheist Evangelist.
Either way, whatever their religion, they're annoying."
Can I get an AMEN!?
Just for information, if a person believes in Jesus Christ in the New Testament, then they should believe in Jeheovah of the Old Testament who revealed the Law to Moses, because the Jeheovah of the Old Testament, who at that time did not have a body of flesh and bones, but was a spirit only, thought he was one of the Godhead. In the meridian of time, Jeheovah came to earth to suffer for the sins of ALL men and was known as Jesus Christ. The first to be risen from the dead and receive his immortal body, made it possible for ALL of us to be Resurrected to an immortal state. All from Adam to whoever the last man will be. Because of that he made it possible that everyone of us will stand before Him at Judgement.
Was that before Jack went up the beanstalk?
Of course they are not christians - it is absolutely crystal clear that the point of the two books is that the new testament is the new way that turns away from the old ways. As they follow the old testament still then they are the opposite of christians and have already been damned.
The Old Testament predicted the coming of Christ-and lived under Old Testament laws ,with prophets and Kings.
The New Testament explains the arrival of the Saviour , a King above all Kings ,and the fulfillment of prophency.
Jesus Christ superseded and upheld the 10 Commandments,spoke against the Pharisees and Sadducees who lorded self-religiously over the people).
Though they walked and worshiped in ornate and holy temples ,Jesus admonished them saying their hearts were like white washed sepulchres (tombs) on the inside. Much like ,many of todays oppressive religious churches no doubt. Set up for man not Christ.
To evangelise is to spread the word of Christ, not with hate or anger or judgement!!!
God emphasises that above ALL else the greatest commandmant is Love.
Another important point to remember is we should be able to tell Christians (actually this rule applies to anyone) by their fruit!!
Another words ,not by what they say ,but by what they do!
Love is an action word baby...
Meh. There are probably no more (and no fewer!) true Christians among Evangelicals than among any other sect of Christianity.
But now I think about it, it does seem that the high-profile jerks among Evangelicals are a lot louder than the ones in many other denominations....
It is interesting that you posted this because, my friends were talking about how they like to listen to Perry Stone and today I got a book by him that kind of addresses the issue this forum is talking about.
It is a curious question...get in there and share your views. We love the feedback
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