A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Why is it Hubbers cannot respect someone lses view by spewing name calling? Why do they not stcik to their rhetoric when shown the facts? Your thoughts
Usually because the facts are responded to with a basic "nuh-uh" and refusal to look them up. Eventually, you get frustrated and annoyed that you are debating people who really don't care what is correct or not.
Hey Tex, I was hoping you would post here. We have had a few bouts ourselves, but I feel I have a good respect towards you because of it. Its OK to disagree then move on. Hopefully it makes us better people.
PS. Had the old trach removed and a smaller one put in today.
I agree buddy. Good Lord, the trach? Are you okay? What kind of rehab is involved in that? Let me know if you need anything...email me, I'll send you my cell if you need.
Thanks for asking. It was a smaller one than the last. Its just a step closer to hopefully having it removed. Was not as bad as I thought it would be. It just pulled out they cleaned the site and put another in. I did not hurt but was a little uncomfortable. Rehab going well. I have told you in the past I have been in a bed since last december. On Monday I stood for the first time,was not easy. As of yesterday I walked 350 feet but I need to use a walker right now. Now I know why a horse when first born have wobbly legs, thats how I feel LOL
A big problem is that so often both sides have legitimate arguments, but both sides refuse to even consider that as a possibility. So you have Side A and Side B - and nobody is even willing to consider that neither A nor B is completely correct - and maybe there needs to be a Side C that incorporates the best of A and B, and dumps the worst of both as well.
My "favorite" (sarcasm) kind of thinking is this: The Republicans think ....." or "The Democrats think.....". Since when have all the members of any group/side "all thought in unison and in the exact same way"??? So, if someone leaves no room for any individual thinking, don't even bother trying to have a conversation. Obviously, that's a person who has fallen, robot-style, in line with one party and isn't someone who thinks for himself anyway.
my take on this is that these people you're talking about who like to think in black and white terms have not developed fully. They cannot see beyond narrow views that they learned "by rote" long ago and so they label people "leftist" "liberal" "conservative" even "fascist" and like to call someone a name instead of debating the issue. Their fear of "otherness" is the real problem. They cannot really grasp complexity. It is beyond them and therefore frightening. I think really they come into the forums just to display their own narrowness and see who else agrees with them, looking for some kind of affirmation. Its important to them that they are in the majority, so they always say they are, whether its true or not.
They don't seem to ever feel safe and secure in themselves and their world view, but they cannot venture out of it. Sometimes they become really abusive and vent their scorn in awful names and pick on one or two hubbers in particular, following them around and attacking things they say. They are incapable of really following a debate, instead they just make accusations. If there is no one in the forums at the moment to attack, then they pick someone in the news (like the couple who refuse to announce their baby's gender, for instance) and attack them as "leftist". Or they take your arguements and turn them against you, saying that you are the one who can't see other opinions.
None of this can really account for why they are the way they are, maybe too much time on their hands, too little real human interaction, and not enough attention or education as they grew into adults. I have so often fallen into the trap of trying to be rational with them, and it never works. sigh.
I think you've pretty much summed up most of the crux of the matter. In fairness to some people (and I pride myself on stepping outside myself and trying to be fair; although I have a friend who always teases me about that and will say, "No fairness! Don't do 'in-fairness'!"
However... "In fairness" , maybe one problem (sort of related to the thing you said about too little real human interaction) is too little real-life experience/exposure to some kinds of things. People often have the luxury of kind of living their life in a vacuum. They do their thing, have their homes and kids, work, worry about the bills, and the occasional sick relative - and they tend to get their information about the "outside world" and matters from news media.
Age might factor in too. A 25-year-old, no matter how well informed, has only been paying attention, as an adult, for a few years. He's only had those few years as an adult to run into some of the stuff that people a lot older have found themselves running into. Some people (either just because they've see enough, or because they haven't had the luxury of living in a vacuum and not having some of that "outside world stuff" touch their lives) eventually figure out that so much in life isn't as black-and-white as some other people think it is.
Or course, there's the people who remain "narrow" and stubborn in their black-and-white thinking; and then there are those who just out swinging before anyone else even has a chance to offer his own views (black-and-white, or otherwise). To me, I'll give some of those "narrow" people a pass. The ones who are just hostile have mental problems, as far as I'm concerned.
Oh so very, very, true.
Hey everybody, Stalin was a communist (he wasn't) therefore all communists are mass murderers.
Seems to me that posters usually post with the idea of convincing someone else that they are right instead of trying to learn. Ears and eyes closed, mouth open and working is not a particularly good method of learning anything but that's the way most debaters approach the project.
The problem is that it is very difficult to debate with somebody who knows they are right and doesn't hesitate to tell you they are right, "if only you would believe".
If you are swayed and agree, often that results in the other jumping up and down and saying that just proves that everything else you say is carp as well.
Quite often (always) you are forced into taking a more extreme position than you normally would.
Somebody I know, who is otherwise a pretty gentle and decent individual, once actually told me that if he's in an argument/debate, he won't give in even if he knows the other person has made a good point and is clearly correct. I was kind of amazed and horrified to know this is what I'd been dealing with with this person for years. He out-and-out said he just wasn't going to give the other person the satisfication.
I think wilderness pretty much has it down: Some people go into debate/discussion with the idea of listening, learning, weighing, pondering, etc. Others go in with the aim just to convert the other person.
Why would you take an extreme position if your primary purpose is to learn, either how the other thinks or what they think?
Even if your goal is to win an argument and convince the other side that you are right the more extreme your stance the less chance you have of convincing them.
The people you mention (that jump up and down, etc.) are not ones I can learn anything from, except to understand how other people think. WHAT they think is almost immaterial, but how they reach their conclusions can be important to understanding not only them but others.
yeah I left the forums for the same reason, the ones that always have to be right are always right, and everyone else is wrong. lol better off just enjoying life and let others be right because they have to be!
I'm beginning to see that you can pretty much tell how a thread is going to go by its title and the way in which the question leading the thread was posed - and then know that speaking up there will get you labeled one way or another or told that you are basically an idiot. (the other day someone was actually calling another hubber a "moron" - I think they got banned after that) So much of the forums are all about right vs. left (even in threads that have nothing to do with politics or religion)
That always amuses me when a hubber finds a way to call someone a "leftist" or "liberal" when we are discussing basic human issues that aren't really about politics - like in the current thread about gender and children.
The other part of fanaticism is having a "cause" which may or may not be an intelligent cause, but nevertheless the fanatic has to be sure that everyone falls into line - they seem to crave followers who will go along with them wherever, crave to have people that will obey them. It is fascinating.
Yes it is fascinating! Met a women from the U.K. that is that way and so very dry, and I'm so not her style because I won't follow her opinions!
I'm pretty much too intimidated by the goings-on in the politics forum (most of the time) and too "not-interested" in the same kind of stuff that goes on in the religious forums) - and I"m someone who usually likes a good discussion/debate. Well.. because so many of the people in the politics and religion forums aren't looking for discussion (with stuff like, "Here's what I think, and here's all the reasons I think it. What do you think, and why?"). Maybe they're just looking to be outrageous and get some attention for their profiles. Then, too, some may be being paid.
Respect is something that is shown that much on the internet thanks to the anonymity of this medium. I had a brief (very brief) discussion on religion and politics (yeah, two of the worse subjects you can discuss). I simply told her that based on just skimming over her hubs, I did not think we would agree on much, but I look forward to discussing issue with her in the future. She called me "close minded" and quickly unfollowed me. She was my follower for about 4 hours. :-)
Yeah them political and religious forums are cut throat, more like ego's getting in the way!
No, it wasn't.
Now, what does that say about you?
Was just a guess, please take no offense. But you have to admit you are a pretty fierce hubber. I actually enjoy and get a kick out of your posts. I just dont like it when people start the name calling garbage. I am not saying its all you, I know you have been attacked and you defend yourself as you should. It was not meant as an insult and soory if it came across that way
I don't think I start ANY name calling!
Here's how it usually works: I insult or call out a PUBLIC figure, and then people insult or call me out PERSONALLY.
They always always do that!
But I appreciate and accept your apology....that was kind of you.
People do not like when you question their sacred cows. Or try and ferret out the truth. The agenda in America has been STFU.
Too bad it happens everywhere you go.
I am guilty of this too - I tell, I don't ask - forgetting that the best discussions I've ever been in are when the other people were actively asking questions about each other's views and listening to the answers and responding - not just telling everybody where to go. I must remember this and actually ask about how y'all feel and think sometimes. Most times, like now, I don't even know how to phrase the questions to be inclusive.
Now that you mention it, I guess I don't really specifically ask anyone anything either. I just kind of assume it's up to each person to kick in with his own views and why he has them. Where I like to think I'm a little less guilty in the give-and-take, though, is that I know I'm looking forward to the other person's input. My thing, though, is that I the everyone's input should be reasonable and respectful, and I think everyone should be willing to pay attention to what the other person's point are (if the other person actually offers points/back up to his own argument). My thing is I pretty stay quiet on opinions I know I have without a lot to back them up. I just figure I shouldn't participate if I can't bring an argument that I can back up with whatever makes me think what I do. The people who can't debate/discuss tend to be the ones who can't back up their own beliefs with whatever it is that goes into them, but also people who aren't interested in someone else's side (even when that other person offers what he has that seems to back up his own take on things).
It's not good to assume others are interested in the same kind of give-and-take, though. Sometimes people just misinterpret the other person's style. Something I always worry about (when it comes to my own "doings") is that I'll go looking for a subject that I have a lot to say about, and then I'll tend to post that "lot to say" on the thread. What I worry about is that someone else doesn't know I'm kind of hoping another bunch of people come on and kick in their own "lot to say". When nobody else does, the thread ends up with my long post as the only long post, and then I get embarrassed about looking like (apparently being) the only one who had so much to say.
Oh well.. It would just be good if everyone could be happy enough doing whatever it is they do or don't, assuming everyone else will just take it or leave it, and choosing to assume the best of others (rather than worst) - but, of course, not being nasty (regardless of conversation style or expectations).
I am like that too Lisa - I often go on and on and people must get very bored with me. But sometimes I say some good things amidst the rubbish. I am always shocked by the nastiness - and can't get used to it. It has driven me away several times. I just don't feel anything any of us say here should be attacked, when we are just stating opinions. Sometimes, I have let myself in for an attack when I have countered a few of the nastier guys on here (and it is usually guys, only one or two women). At those times I knew I was asking for it. I guess I was just in the mood for confrontation, even though I don't usually go for it.
But the world in general seems to me to no longer be half as nice as it used to be, and I understand why that is, it just makes me very sad.
Meanwhile, I think for some reason it is important to call the nasty ones on their attitudes and report them so they have to be held accountable when they go too far. Its good we have a few rules of behavior here, just as everywhere. I even got banned once for being rude (in response to rudeness, I didn't start it, but I deserved it)
Nowadays I have less time for this, so I do have to be more careful what I speak up about because I can easily get sucked in and really just waste a lot of time. But I'm glad this discussion happened now, I needed to hear these things.
It can waste a lot of time. Usually, I have a HP window open (but minimized) when I'm doing other stuff. Then I pop back on when I'm waiting for something else (that kind of thing). Recently, I've had some kind of allergy or flu thing, so I've had a few days when - really - I've just had no energy, so I either sat here mucking around on the forums (or elsewhere), or else did some other useless thing for - like - hours. It's pathetic, but since I don't see any real vacation showing up in the near future, I figure I'm entitled to a few days of doing nothing. Since I HAVE been on here more recently, I do seem to notice things are getting a little more back to normal (as opposed to some of the negativity that was running amok for the last few months ).
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