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Police beat homeless man to death!

  1. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    Protesters decry beating of Calif. homeless man
    AMY TAXIN, Associated Press, GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press
    Updated 02:48 p.m., Saturday, August 6, 2011

    FULLERTON, Calif. (AP) — Angry protesters gathered Saturday outside the police department of this Southern California city to decry the death of Kelly Thomas, a homeless schizophrenic man who died after being beaten during a violent arrest.

    About 200 people lined sidewalks outside the police station and chanted slogans such as "Justice for Kelly, No killer cops," and "No justice, no peace, no killer police." Many demanded the resignation of Police Chief Michael Sellers.

    "The police chief needs to resign and apologize to the victim's family," said Robert Giannasi, a San Diego resident who had driven up the coast to attend the protest. "These people work for us, I don't see why they are trying to subvert the system."

    Like several other demonstrators, Giannasi said he had a family member with mental illness, so the manner of Thomas's death resonated with him deeply.

    "This could have been my brother or uncle," he said.

    Thomas had symptoms of schizophrenia and a 16-year string of arrests for everything from assault with a deadly weapon to public urination to jaywalking.

    Six officers who were trying to search Thomas's backpack July 5 after reports of break-ins at a Fullerton transit hub got into a violent fight with the 37-year-old. He later died of severe head and neck injuries. On Friday, a second City Council member called Sellers's resignation over his handling of the fallout following the death of Thomas.

    The lack of engagement and perceived secrecy in the case has frustrated many. Several demonstrators demanded the police release city surveillance camera footage they believe depict the beating.

    "Make it public," said Dana Pape, Thomas's stepmother. "It's torture for us. ... We need to see it."

    Saturday's protest was at least the third time demonstrators had gathered outside the police department since Thomas's death. Under a cloudless blue sky, some carried signs bearing statements such as: "Protect and serve, not beat and murder." The drivers of many cars briefly stopped and drivers blasted their horns.

    Freddy Worth, a Long Beach resident, said he had a mentally ill brother who had spent some time on the streets. Tears welled in his eyes as he described why he came to Fullerton.

    "To let people know that the police are here to help the community, not harass the community," he said. "The (officers) need to be prosecuted and they need to be jailed."

    Not surprisingly, police stayed away.

    Lt. Scott Rudisil, who came to the door at the white, Spanish-ranch-style building, said no one from the department would be commenting.

    Roldan Perez, a Fullerton resident, said he felt frustrated by the lack of communication from police and that the chief should have held a community meeting to enable residents to voice their fears.

    "They need to put a stop to this," said his wife, Louisa Guerra. "They don't deserve to wear their uniform."

    Thomas had symptoms of schizophrenia and a 16-year string of arrests for everything from assault with a deadly weapon to public urination to jaywalking. His mother, Cathy Thomas, said he chose to live on the streets and could have gone home if he'd wanted to.

    "The schizophrenia took over his mind," she said.

    Along with the fury Thomas' death has provoked in the college town east of Los Angeles, the incident has focused attention on how and to what degree officers are trained to deal with those who are mentally ill.

    "If a police officer needs training to not bludgeon someone to death, they shouldn't be a policeman," said Giannasi.

    A bystander recorded the incident with a cell phone. A bus surveillance tape showed agitated witnesses describing how officers beat Thomas and used a stun gun on him repeatedly as he cried out for his father.

    The police department has called the case an isolated incident and put the six officers on administrative leave.

    The FBI and the district attorney's office are investigating.



    Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/ … z1UHCkMei2

    1. BukowskiBabe profile image80
      BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is just disgraceful behavior on the part of the police. As someone who works with the mentally ill, I'm deeply saddened. This of course, brings up the question of what do we do with the mentally ill on the street who refuse to take their meds, and are often in positions that put themselves in peril? Charles Krauthammer recently commented that they are, "Starving in their rights."  The point being that they have the right to do as they want, but are often too mentally ill to stay warm, find food, etc. I feel for the poor man and his family. What the police did was inexcusable.

      1. Paul Wingert profile image78
        Paul Wingertposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        For starters, the cops violated Thomas' rights to search his backpack without a warrant. Of course killing him takes it to a different level.

    2. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This kind of police abuse is all too common in this country.

    3. 0
      lavender3957posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Police officers are not trained to deal with the mentally ill people. They are trained to defend themselves in any attack and protect those around them. I personally think they  need to be trained in this situation as I am a special education teacher and I am so against anyone who does not take the time to understand the illness. They don't know they are doing wrong with their disease. And they will fight back which is our survival skill we have naturally inside of our bodies. This person obviously was fighting back not knowing he was doing any wrong. Restrain them, don't force them, the police need to learn to restrain the mentally ill. How hard is that to do with 5 or 6 grown men? Was a electronic shock device needed? Only fighting back, the only defense that these mentally challenged people know. I put myself in danger everyday by myself with mentally challenged teenagers bigger and stronger than I. I am 90 lbs, 5 ft 2 and I know how to restrain the biggest person down until help arrives. I have done, and I don't like it, but I have to protect my self and the others inside of the classroom. Usually if you are calm and speak calmly, the mentally challenged will listen enough to be restrained. It is sad, how the police use brutality of force.

      1. Reality Bytes profile image93
        Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        The fact that there was mentally ill people involved is irrelevant. I am sure the cop is not even receiving assistance for his mental illness.


        Now the homeless man, I know many people who work with the mentally challenged and I never hear of them being beaten to death.

        Please do not trivialize a human life by making excuses for a cold blooded murderer.  Does California have the death sentence.

  2. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
    Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago

    The poor and the mentally ill are always the victims when a people embrace Darwinism - and the reason is that they can always just be written off as "not the fit for survival."

    1. Paul Wingert profile image78
      Paul Wingertposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No, this is a case of police brutality, not Darwinism. Not that same as "not the fit for survival."

      1. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
        Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        No sir, I see things on the macro level, and I judge what society values.  Society does not value the poor or the mentally ill - and the secular humanist agenda has had billions of Rockefeller dollars behind it for 40 years now.

        1. Paul Wingert profile image78
          Paul Wingertposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Uh, yeah. Whatever you're drinking, I want a case of it!

    2. 0
      Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The religious always like to get a dig in at the fact of evolution.  Based on American society, those policemen are far more statistically likely to be Christians, as they do make up anout 85% of the American population.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image72
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Wesman ,I think you may be out left field on this one, the fact of matter is it is bad policing period, and since it is justice related ,that just makes it even more disgusting!!

        The police must be accountable at all times,but who polices the police?

        The FBI are going to be investigating ,its a bit like asking Jack the ripper to investigate a serial killer isnt it wink

  3. agneska profile image60
    agneskaposted 5 years ago

    Takové způsoby policistů se stávají také u nás v České Republice. A přitom mají své heslo: Pomáhat a chránit.

  4. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    The United States acknowledges the RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of happiness!

    These officers involved are cold blooded MURDERERS.

    Incarceration in general population or the DEATH penalty is what they deserve.  Right now they are still on the payroll.  Fullerton California has bloodthirsty killers working for their government. It is about damn time that we get our servants to heel to their masters.

    THE PEOPLE!!

    Just because someone handed them a badge does not give an officer any more RIGHTS then any civilian.  We are ALL equal under the law!

  5. Eaglekiwi profile image72
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    They are probably protected by politicians and lawyers who have BiG pockets.

    The people wont win unless they are united ,and they know it!

  6. 0
    klarawieckposted 5 years ago

    The police can surely be abusive at times, no doubt about that. Here is my question though... given the history of misdemeanor charges he had, why was he not medicated? I'm asking because I don't know if it's due to lack of insurance or if the gvt provides any type of help for sick people like him. Just wondering...

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Most cities have at least the basics of a free mental health center.  Often these come with free medications.  Whether they are adequately funded is another question. 

      Unfortunately, it is more likely that he refused to take his prescribed medications.  The nature of his mental disorder often leads to believing that the medication is actually harmful.  It is, in all but rare cases, illegal to force an individual to take any medication.

      To certain other posters...  This is SO not a religious conversation.  Go argue faith in a thread that it is relevant too.

      1. 0
        klarawieckposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for responding to my question. I think something should be done about these mental patients that refuse to take their medication. They don't have a sign that says "schizophrenic" on their forehead, so it's hard for law enforcement to know when they are dealing with their usual scum of humanity or a sick person. This, of course, is not to say that what the police did is justified. Police officers also need to have regular psychological assessments. They are working in an environment where they see violence, have to use force at times, and deal with people and situations we can't even begin to imagine. It gets to a point where they lose perspective of what their function is. It's unexcusable that they do such things, but it's a reality and it needs to be corrected somehow.

  7. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    I'm glad that someone else realizes the power of Rockefeller money...the think tanks, etc...all aimed at an alchemical transformation of society to suit the Rockefeller agenda.

  8. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    Oh, I see, it was those evil Christians...but of course. Practicing Chrisitans? I don't see much charm or grace in our current society, and I don't blame that on Christians. More like the hedonisim and selfishness of the entire ME, ME, ME...I want mine ethos.

    1. 0
      Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Neither do I blame Christians.  However, blaming Christians is as valid as blaming those who believe in evolution.  Both statements are illogical.

      1. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image93
        Wesman Todd Shawposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Does a society holding the belief that the fittest survive and are justified to survive extrapolating the non survival of the non fit seem valid to you, or not?

        1. 0
          Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Are you honestly telling me that the United States of America, a country known around the world for its creativity in inventing many different religions, and the only county I know to have a "Bible Belt," is in actuality an atheistic state, where Social Darwinism is the norm.  If so, then the impression of the US around the world must be entirely wrong.

    2. Eaglekiwi profile image72
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I agree.

      Money and the power ,power and the money.


      6 Officers couldnt arrest one homeless guy who had serious mental issues??? wt?

      God help us all.

  9. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    The actions of the police in regards to this unfortunate  man are in no manner representative of a, "Christian nation." Rather, their actions were symbolic of a contempt for all that is weak and unable to fit cohesively into society's standards. This concept started in some sense with Plato and of course, was used by Nietzsche who was the darling of many esoteric models, such as Aleister Crowley's Thelema. I would submit that in some sense, these beliefs have filtered into society to the detriment of those who are not able to function on what is deemed a normal or acceptable level. It's not endemic now. Rather a slow evolution. If you can call it that.

  10. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    Melissa,
    I'm sorry our discussion on faith within the broader context of society have offended you. I don't attempt to control the nature of  people's comments, as I prefer to allow others the freedom of expression,and respond accordingly. 
    As for the tendency for mental health patients to not comply with meds, and their rights, I addressed this issue earlier in the thread. As I work in the industry, I am well aware of these issues.
    Thank you,

    BB

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      smile pull in the teeth dear, no one is doubting your expertise.  Nor was I talking to you.  The question was asked after your explanation, so obviously she didn't read your answer EITHER.

      But it is so nice for you, who quite proudly works within the field, to ignore the fact that a homeless man was beaten to death to discuss the Christianity in America.

      Feel free to discuss how to make a pizza in the middle of the thread too, as it is just as relevant.

      Thank you,

      MB.

      1. BukowskiBabe profile image80
        BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        My apology was sincere.  Of course, it's difficult to tell tone online. As far as my concern for the mentally ill, I addressed my concerns in an earlier thread. On my page, your comment appeared after my comment. Of course, I stand by my  post. It's really not my place to dictate what people write about. I have the option of not reading or responding to content.

  11. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    Okay... everyone hold it!
    "That poor man"..."Those awful police officers"!
    Someone said "wt?"... I say what is wrong with you people?!
    Have any of you been a Police Officer? Have any of you dealt with the mentally disabled / disturbed?
    How dare you talk about issues you know nothing of!
    I currently do & have worked with the mentally disabled (MRs), both specifically the Schizophrenic and the violent. It is scary to deal with. When the two are mixed, they feel little pain and cannot be reasoned with. They have one deluted mission in mind and will kill to get it. They become paranoid and are virtually unstoppable. I have never used a taser & cannot but wish I could at times. Three big men took over an hour to stop one light-weight on a war path. In his past (I cannot state who due to HIPPA) he had overwhelmed 4 full-grown men at an institution, including sending one to the hospital.
    I watched the video of the so-called beating & read multiple reports to be as unbiased as possible.
    First off, the man in question was previously arrested for "assault with a deadly weapon" while another report calls him "child-like". That is how some MRs are, friendly one second and then you're are defending your life.
    Second, reports say that he "ran" and then "resisted".
    The video shows the police ontop of the suspect. Witnesses are saying that once police are "on his back" "call it a night" and not to keep hitting him. My father are brother are or were police officers. They know this situation and I talked to them about this. They have dealt with similar situatations. Just because they are on the ground doesn't mean that they are fully restrained. The suspect will continue to struggle and fight and bite, spit, kick and do whatever they can. Tasing such an individual can have little effect. The video says that he was tased 6 times. The 5th & 6th time was while other cops were on the suspect. I.e. the taser would also affect those officers and so it was a bad situation. Enough to where another cop would risk injury to his 'brothers' to stop the man. The video shows him screaming "Dad! Dad! Dad!". This would make anyone cringe! However, I have the experience. I had a client scream "Mommy!" again & again while we were trying to control him. It made him stronger!
    In conclusion: There are a lot of unanswered questions & things in this incident that people do not understand. Mentally Ill doesn't just mean "slow", it also can mean quick, strong, focused, single-objective minded, etc. My anger is directed to the question as to why this individual was not in the proper care! Why was he homeless?! He should have been in an institution or at least in an ISL, Group Home, Behavioral Home, etc.
    The end.

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image72
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No I have never been a police officer!

      I have never been inside a volcano either ,but I know its dam hot !!

      So whats your point?

      6 Officers...not one ,not two BUT 6 ,fit, armed and healthy as opposed to someone who is not fit and healthy and unarmed.....AND they could not contain him.

      Do the math!!

      Cops are either ill trained, lazy or corrupt bullies.

      Total: B U L L S H I T

  12. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    A volcano is hot? Thank you for the info... Can you tell me its chemical makeup too?
    I can say as a simpleton than an MR has problems but can I say exactly what without knowing?
    Six officers... yes. Not one, not two, six. A Meth-head can chuck 4-5 cops off his back like the Hulk. So can a MR in the right conditions. Have you tried to hold an MR down when they think you're the devil there to take their soul? Good luck.
    Many MRs are great guys that I love to be around, others NEED to be where plenty of needles filled with sedatives are on hand.
    Get my point yet?

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image72
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Got any more excuses?

      Perhaps then the Police need to be trained,since now all these humans are presenting with new problems. (Not)

      Using your scenerio a zoo keeper would be better on the streets than a cop.


      Which one's are the educated professional here again?

      Got my point yet? or do you need to research.

      Better yet form a committee while they keep on killing people.

  13. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    Oh. And if someone want to get all word-play professional... I understand that many people with Schizophrenia are not MR and just have the Mental Disorder of Schizophrenia. I was just being quick in my writing and making general points on the issue as I do not have his Mental analysis record & doctor's notes in-front of me...

    1. Reality Bytes profile image93
      Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      There are six homicidal cops now on the payroll in a small town in California!

      There is a dead human being that was beaten to death by these officers!

      There was a veteran shot 60 times in his home in Arizona a few weeks ago!

      The veteran was not MR?????  And Then?

  14. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    Should the police now drive around with U-hauls to carry everything they need for every instance?
    Should we make another police force just for such cases?
    How about we plain and simple get the violent & disturbed people to the facilities they NEED to be?
    Why is everyone ignoring his prior arrest for "assault with a deadly weapon"? Research that and tell me those circumstances. Or better yet, wait for the full report to come out!
    I love the people protesting with signs saying "Who will police the Police?"
    It's called Internal Affairs!!!
    They do a great job and that is why, generally, cops hate them.
    In due time, I'm sure people will blame police for having to kill a drugged up nut... Oh, I'm sorry!... "a poor individual" (poor in the sad sense) after he beats police...
    I know people will say he didn't "beat" the officers.
    Have they seen the report? Maybe cops had major bruises & bites on them. Do we know? No! And that is my point! Stop attacking the police when the facts are unknown!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If you work around MR and have the opinion that beating mentally ill people to death is O.K, then maybe you need to find another field?

      Yes, mentally ill individuals can be stronger than expected, but seriously there comes a point-somewhere shy of death or coma- that you say enough.  If six police officers with tasers cannot handcuff one man without killing him, then they also need to find a different field.

    2. Danny R Hand profile image61
      Danny R Handposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I will be one of the first in line to give police officers their due respect. They preform a dangerous job and they deal with high stress situations quite often. So I concede your point on that particular issue. Having said that, if 5 or 6 professional police officers can not detain an unarmed man without killing him, then there is something horribly wrong with that specific district. There is NO excuse for professional police officers to go to that extreme. One final note. When people defend them for this type of extreme action, it allows these type of actions to continue. Also, I believe you would feel differently if it had been your son or daughter. And that is always possible.

  15. 0
    Sherlock221bposted 5 years ago

    I know a man who suffers from schizophrenia, and it is not possible for the doctors to force him to take his medication.  Having talked to this man many times, he tells me that there is a conspiracy between his doctor and Tony Blair to kill him, by making him take his medication. As he lives on his own, there is no one there to make sure he takes his medication.  There should be better care of people with such conditions.  And, there should be training of police officers to recognise someone with a mental health condition.

  16. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    Again... why will no one admit that they need to shut up and wait for the full report before stiff-arming the police?!
    Does anyone realize that I could be a single suspect who runs, a single professional cop tases me after multiple prompts, I fall and crack my skull open on the curb & die?!
    People can ACCIDENTALLY die! What an unknown eye opener!!
    It was night, it was a scuffle. An attempted hit with a nightstick to the leg muscles to stop the suspect from kicking could have missed during the flail. Or again, maybe he was bitting. Or maybe one of the six cops was a nut who had fun hitting him. Do we know?
    WAIT FOR THE REPORT!!!

    1. PrettyPanther profile image84
      PrettyPantherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Have you seen the photo of Kelly Thomas after he was beaten?  I won't post it here because it is so gruesome, but here is a link. 

      Warning to others:  don't click on the link unless you are prepared to see a horrific photo of a man beaten to death.

      http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in … -on-camera

      If you can look at this photo and continue to defend the police, then it is clear that you are part of the problem.

  17. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    And P.S.
    My daughter wouldn't resist arrest, run from the police or have a charge of assault with a deadly weapon....

  18. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    While I strongly feel that the cops went way beyond the amount of force needed  in this circumstance, I suppose it will be interesting to see what the autopsy report has to say.  This man didn't belong on the street. He needed to be in a setting that encouraged him to comply with meds, and offered him a safe environment to live in. With the proper meds, Schizophrenics can do very well. Most of us don't give individuals on the streets much thought until something like this happens.
    It seems to me that Reagan started this trend when he opened the flood gates of the mental hospitals over thirty years ago.
    So, what do we do? This man did not want to be in a group home, or an institutional setting? Where do his rights end and start?  Do we override his rights in the interest of his own well being? It's sort of a slippery slope but in light of what happened to him, perhaps it needs to be discussed.

  19. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    What did this suspect do wrong that deserved the death penalty.  if anyone read the article you would have noticed the police had him hog-tied!  His arms and legs were tied together.

    The police continued the beating!  Sadistic f*ing animals!

    Then they wonder why we throw rocks at them!

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Neither of the two links provided above have any mention of the suspect being hog tied at all, let alone being beaten while tied. 

      Both, however, mention that the suspect had one arm in front of him, but only one.

      Do you have information that he was in fact tied while being beaten?  Or is it simply additional exaggeration from a cop-hater?

      1. Reality Bytes profile image93
        Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Death of Homeless Man After Beating by Police Stirs Outrage

        Ken Steinhardt/Orange County Register, via Associated Press
        Citizens protested the death of Kelly Thomas.
        By IAN LOVETT
        Published: August 3, 2011


        LOS ANGELES — In one video, the sound of a Taser going off is followed by a man screaming in pain. In another, footage from a security camera on a public bus, riders describe police officers beating a man to death in graphic terms. “They beat him up, and then all the cops came and they hogtied him, and he was like, ‘Please God, please Dad!,’ ” one said.



        I am not a cop-hater, the majority of police are upstanding human beings in my opinion.

        I do despise public servants that abuse the power given to them.  Also those that hold the belief that they are above the rest of the population.

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          From your first post: "His arms and legs were tied together.

          The police continued the beating!  Sadistic f*ing animals!"

          From this post: “They beat him up, and then all the cops came and they hogtied him, and he was like, ‘Please God, please Dad!,’ ” one said."

          Again, where did you get the idea the cops tied him and continued the beating on a hogtied person?  All I can see is that some witness claims he was hogtied (I didn't know cops carried ropes to tie people up with) but was never tied and then beaten.

          1. Reality Bytes profile image93
            Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            They use plastic zipties, Does it matter when the beating started or stopped?

            The human being was beaten to death by Police officers.  I am sure that once they had him hogtied they probably put band-aids on his boo boo.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yes it matters.  Considerably.  I cannot conceive of any possible reason to beat a hogtied person - even if he bites, simply gag him.

              Everyone on this thread seems to assume that the cops can control a maniac without injuring him - it doesn't happen so easily.  Everyone assumes that cops are completely knowledgeable about mental illness - it isn't so and cannot be. 

              While it is far easier to simply stand back and shoot the suspect they didn't do that - they put their own well-being at risk to control him with physical force and tasers with neither one being very effective.  Anyone that can absorb 5 taser shots without going down is just a wee bit abnormal, but no one here seems to understand that or care if they do. 

              It's all too easy to stand back and get third and fourth hand reports of what happened and then blow it up into something it wasn't and blame the people (cops) that were tasked with handling the situation without having the slightest idea of what actually occurred, just as you have done.

  20. 0
    klarawieckposted 5 years ago

    OH MY GOD! I just finished reading the symptoms of schizophrenia!!! I THINK I'M A SCHIZO!!! yikes
    I have all the cognitive symtoms...Problems with making sense of information, Difficulty paying attention,Memory problems... hmm

    It says that laws on involuntary commitment for mental health treatment vary by state. He should have been hospitalized.

  21. Ralph Deeds profile image69
    Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago

    The law enforcement community--police, prosecutors, crime labs, judges--usually takes care of its own.

    Here's an interesting column by Leonard Pitts, Jr., on a related topic--police objections to being video taped when they are doing their "duty."

    http://www.freep.com/article/20110805/O … RONTPAGE|s

    1. BukowskiBabe profile image80
      BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The mentally ill often fall through the cracks Without the help of family members or mental health professionals, they wander the streets in a state of mental confusion. Sometimes the family members have given up. When I was at Legal Aid, a man with schizophrenia wanted help with his disability claim. He was too disoriented to obtain the necessary infor for for SSA to determine eligibility. As SSA relies heavily on medical documentation in their determination process, without  letters from doctors, etc, he was out of luck. I explained the process to him, & he made another appointment but never came back.
      Sounds like the man who recently died may have been a danger to others and himself. This is not an attack on him. Rather an observation that without treatment, he couldn't function properly. He's  another sad case who fell through the cracks. There are many more out there like him; until we as a society resolve this matter, we will continue to hear of similar tragedys.

  22. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    Wilderness, take away the fact that these six individuals were police officers.  This could easily fall under the "hate crime" category against the mentally ill.

    I hate labels, this man was a human being!

    Did this man injure anyone?  What was this man's crimes?  Why did the police bother him at all?  Who is the injured party?  If he lived, what crimes would he be charged with? 

    I am on the streets, I know the world that this man lived.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      All good questions that need answered.  I just find it a little reprehensible that everyone is ready to hang the cops out to dry without having any of the answers.  It is automatic to blame the cops any more when it goes bad without having any real idea of what happened.

      All we know right now (at least as far as I can tell) is that man had a long record with the cops, including carrying firearms and that he violently resisted arrest.

      That little bit of knowledge on our part does not imply the cops were guilty of any wrongdoing any more than it implies they were innocent.  So why does everyone convict them without trial or evidence? 

      Is that how the country works now?  All cops are automatically guilty of murder because it might be a hate crime or because an ignorant and untrained bystander thinks they should have done better without having any real idea of just what the suspect was doing?

      This episode certainly needs investigated - any death by cops (or serious injury) does.  The best we have come up with is internal affairs of the police department and while it is often flawed, it is still far better than the lynch mobs that inevitably form on any police violence.  Let them do their job without contributing to that lynch mentality.

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
        Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        My impression is that nobody's "hanging the cops out to dry." The incident strikes me as a modern day lynching. People are suspicious of cops because of all the recently publicized incidents of misbehavior and murder by police and by the problems inherent in finding the truth and prosecuting police officers.

        Here are some links to articles about the sad case of Bismark Dinius who was charged with manslaughter when the sailboat he was on was hit by a speeding boat driven recklessly by a deputy sheriff.



        http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/justice.asp

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Really?  From above posts:

          "The police continued the beating!  Sadistic f*ing animals!"

          "the cops went way beyond the amount of force needed  in this circumstance"

          "If you can look at this photo and continue to defend the police, then it is clear that you are part of the problem."

          "Better yet form a committee while they keep on killing people."

          "Rather, their (police) actions were symbolic of a contempt for all that is weak and unable to fit cohesively into society's standards. "

          "These officers involved are cold blooded MURDERERS."

          "Many (protesters) demanded the resignation of Police Chief Michael
          Sellers."

          ""The (officers) need to be prosecuted and they need to be jailed."

          Need I go on?

          1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
            Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            All very believable based on what I've read and seen on video tape about police brutality. It's pretty obvious per the AP report that six officers should have been able to handle the situation with out killing the man.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              And because you find it believable in past cases they are murderers that should be jailed.

              Exactly what I said.

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                All I know is what the AP report said, to wit: Six (6) officers were trying to subdue a mentally ill man and search his backpack. If that's true it's pretty obvious that they should have been able to deal with the situation without killing the man. The policemen should be charged, tried and, if found guilty, given prison time. Unfortunately that often doesn't happen in cases of police misconduct. Too bad somebody didn't get it on video tape.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh, it seems true enough.  6 cops failed to subdue a madman without causing damage to the point of death.

                  Why?  I don't know and neither do you.  Neither you nor I know the capabilities of the suspect except that he was extremely violent and able to withstand at least 5 taser hits and remain functional and violent.  The difference seems to be that you don't care.  Whatever the reason they need charged with murder as, to you, the cops were not only incompetent but intentionally murderous.

                  1. Doug Hughes profile image61
                    Doug Hughesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Just curious.

                    If 6 cops gang raped a 12 year old girl, how would you spin it?

                    Oh, it's her fault... somehow.

                  2. Reality Bytes profile image93
                    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    A madman?  Why , because he refused to give his consent to an illegal search?

                    Not bowing down to another human being because they told you too defines a madman?

                    HaHa they're coming to take me away HeeHee

                    Once again, what was the nature of this homeless man's crimes?  WHO did this man injure?

                  3. Ralph Deeds profile image69
                    Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I don't care?  I certainly do care. You are the one with a knee-jerk reaction in defense of the six policemen who killed an unarmed, homeless man. What more do we need to know? Unless there is something more to the situation than I've seen the cops should be indicted, charged and tried before a jury.

      2. Eaglekiwi profile image72
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I agree that the Police for the main part endeavour to do a great job,so do other professionals ,but they need to be accountable at all times to a higher body for monitoring and effective crisis management. Of course they do already have this in place ,but since they as a body serve the people, then the people should have acess to this information of these procedures ,conduct ,discipline etc.

        Unfortunatley the Police are like any old boys network ,they close up shop with communications when they need protecting.and thats why the public have trouble trusting their motives (IMO).

  23. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    Another madman?



    Jose Guerena Killed: Arizona Cops Shoot Former Marine In Botched Pot Raid
    First Posted: 05/25/11 05:42 PM ET Updated: 05/26/11 12:25 PM ET

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 … 67020.html

    On May 5 at around 9:30 a.m., several teams of Pima County, Ariz., police officers from at least four different police agencies armed with SWAT gear and an armored personnel carrier raided at least four homes as part of what at the time was described as an investigation into alleged marijuana trafficking. One of those homes belonged to 26-year-old Jose Guerena and his wife, Vanessa Guerena. The couple's 4-year-old son was also in the house at the time. Their 6-year-old son was at school.

    As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet. As the officers entered, Guerena confronted them from the far end of a long, dark hallway. The police opened fire, releasing more than 70 rounds in about 7 seconds, at least 60 of which struck Guerena. He was pronounced dead a little over an hour later.

    The Pima County Sheriff's Department initially claimed Guerena fired his weapon at the SWAT team. They now acknowledge that not only did he not fire, the safety on his gun was still activated when he was killed. Guerena had no prior criminal record, and the police found nothing illegal in his home. After ushering out his wife and son, the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.

  24. Paradise7 profile image87
    Paradise7posted 5 years ago

    It does seem excessive; way too much force used if the guy died when the police simply wanted to look in his backpack for stolen goods.  They could have incapacitated him without killing him; the police know how to do that.  There were (evidently, according to the article) six officers involved.  They could have controlled him without killing him, by restraining his arms and legs.  It's horrible that he was laying on the ground screaming for his dad while the cops repeatedly stunned him.  It certainly smacks of sadism to me. 

    That is so unnecessary.  Believe me, they would not have done that with an upper-class person.

    Whatever his current crimes or prior crimes, the man in the present instance is innocent until proven guilty; it's a basic constitutional privilege.

  25. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    From the online dictionary:
    madman [ˈmædmən]
    n pl -men
    a man who is insane, esp one who behaves violently; lunatic

    I am assuming this is a definition of the officers.  Since the victim does not seem to have shown any signs of violent behavior during this incident.

    Or have you seen pics of the brutally beaten police officers that this human being perpetrated upon them?

  26. PrettyPanther profile image84
    PrettyPantherposted 5 years ago

    I cannot believe the vehemence with which some are defending six police officers beating to death an unarmed man.  It doesn't matter that he was mentally ill; it doesn't matter if he fought back.  If six trained officers, with tasers, cannot subdue an unarmed man without killing him, then they should not be police officers.

    Seriously, people, look at the photo.

  27. MelissaBarrett profile image61
    MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago

    Just to throw something else in here...  Police are specifically trained to know how to restrain and/or "take down" suspects.  My father was so trained and likewise gave a few lessons to me growing up.  With his tips-at 13 years old and less than 120 lbs I was able to subdue a 21 year old 6-3 solidly built belligerant frat boy in less than 30 seconds. 

    Are you saying that 6 fully grown police men were so poorly trained that they together couldn't do what I did at 13 years old after 20 minutes of "lessons" from my father?

    Policemen are vital parts of the community and are often heroes, but let's be quite honest... pacifistic people don't join the police force.  Every police officer I've ever met (and there are lots and lots of them) has been a no nonsense knock your dick in the dirt kinda guy.  Most have had control issues.  Most are burnt out and hyperviligent.  Many do use excessive force.  This man did not "break his neck" by tripping.  Do you have ANY idea how much beating it takes to make someone look like that?

    And hogting-for the record-is drawstings around wrists behind the back, one on ankles, and two interconnected ziplocks joining them.  It can be done by a well trained female officer on an struggling averaged sized man in about one minute.  I've watched it be done.

  28. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    There is an abundance of eyewitnesses.

  29. Eaglekiwi profile image72
    Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago

    Is the law different in the United States with regard to if you resist arrest and mentally challenged ,to if you resist arrest with no previous history.

    I know one thing is for sure.

    Where you are dead ,you are dead for a very long time!



    Paronia and fear are the worst kind of buddies in my opinion.

  30. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    MelissaB,
    Are you serious?! Where did I advocate the shooting of one with Mental Disabilities?! Have you seen me around MRs? Do you know how I do my job? Are you so vain that you lack the understanding of logic & reality? Are you truly one of those Epictetus denounced as the worst of people?
    I am stating the details that people ignore. Did I not state the possibility of police brutality in this case? If I did not, am I too so vain & blind?
    Just wait for the full report, then you can spout off like some fountain head of ranting. Till then however, how can one not involved in the incident say who should have done what and if it went too far? This is my main point (again & again), wait for the report! Are we not a logical society?
    (Well, no, we are not; evidenced by the large majority immediatly bashing the police without an ounce of knowledge at their disposal.)
    "Where you are dead, you are dead for a very long time." So does that mean you believe in an afterlife? You didn't say 'forever.' ...

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It appears that you lack reading comprehension skills.  I never said anything about shooting or you advocating such.  I said that if you are ok with someone beating the mentally ill to death in an attempt to subdue them then you might want to find a different career.  If you really do work with MR then you would be aware that if you are doing your job right, it should rarely-if ever-come to a point that you need to restrain a patient, let alone beat one in an effort to "subdue" them.  In fact, in my state  (I don't know about yours) a family can file physical assault charges against the staff of any group home that DOES restrain.  And I would be right there encouraging them to do such.

  31. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    And yes, the quote was directed to you Eaglekiwi.
    (That would be a funny looking bird.)

    1. Eaglekiwi profile image72
      Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Are you sure you are looking at the right file lol

      (Eaglekiwi is not a funny bird ,it is a unique hybrid) wink

  32. BukowskiBabe profile image80
    BukowskiBabeposted 5 years ago

    I don't think anyone advocates for the beating or abuse of a person with developmental disabilities. Anyone working with such individuals, are well aware of the laws regarding restraints, chemical and or phsycial.
    All situations are different. Med adjustments, triggers, etc. Depends on if we're talking group home or more of a behavioral center.
    I wouldn't condescend to imply that someone does or doesn't, "do their job right." Not knowing them, that's a fairly big assumption. I think that I'll stick to hubs. This particular forum has gotten to the level where people are getting hysterical and vitriolic.
    When free expression is limited, as in one can't discuss faith, philosophy, etc, and the impact on how society in regards to how we treat others...because the incident is not disccussed via the narrow prisim of the actual events, rather the cultural beliefs that may bleed into such events, the conversations becomes narrow in scope and combative.The best conversations often ebb and flow...evolve, from free expression of ideas...rather than the thought police limiting freedom of expression simply because they don't understand how things are often interconnected. I'm out folks...ya all have the floor, thanks, and enjoy.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I'm glad you're not condescending.  Otherwise the comment about me not understanding how things are interconnected would have been really insulting.

      Of course, it couldn't possibly have been my effort to head off yet another pointless debate on religion (see the thousand of other threads for examples) in exchange for a conversation on something that is 1. very close to my heart and 2. Of which I am EXCEEDINGLY knowledgeable.  It must be me limiting free speech... you know because of my lack philosophical ability.

      I'm glad you work with the MR/Mentally ill population for 40 hours a week.  That is awesome.  I worked in case management for MR/DD children for a while too.  I stay at home now and only do volunteer work in advocacy part time so I can care for my MR/DD child 24 hours a day seven days a week. 

      That child will most likely be institutionalized at some point.  If there are people working in the field that are so burnt out that they feel the need to sedate or physically restrain my child or at any point are ok with any mentally ill person being beaten to death under ANY circumstances, then I want them the hell out of the field before my daughter-or someone elses child-ends up in their care.

      Because the second, and I do mean the second, that anyone ever lays their hands on my child for anything but a hug, they better hope to hell those six police officers are on duty somewhere close.

      1. Eaglekiwi profile image72
        Eaglekiwiposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well expressed M !! saying it like it is-the heart of the matter-

        At the end of the day that is the bottom line. We don't expect professionals to be (dare I say it) gods,but Im pretty sure we expect common sense,at the least well trained officers.

        As a society we should be vigilant of the people who we pay to serve us,and I hope the protestors receive the appropriate support to keep other professionals accountable as well.

  33. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    MelissaB,
    First off, my error of writing "shooting" instead of "beating" was an error in my typing, not a lacking in the area of reading comprehension. But that would have been the logical answer from the beginning. And yet my point stands. When did I imply that "beating" someone was alright?! I never said that it was okay to intentially harm or kill someone (whether mentally ill or not) in an attempt to subdue them! I never even advocated the use of a taser in what I said though I would not be against it in proper circumstances.
    To say that "if you do your job" one should "rarely-if-ever" have to restrain an MR individual is to show little to no personal experience in the field of the Mentally Disturbed / Violent / Behavioral. I specifically work in an ISL deemed a Behavioral home. Certain clients cannot be talked down. They reach a certain point of no-return. NCI is the only method to stop the incient --unless police need to be called, which I have had to personally do in one out-of-control event. NCI is the technique usually used. But when an individual is making a B-line towards oncoming traffic, then any methods of restraint to prevent such are needed.
    And you are right, families / states can sue over restraint. This is why people like myself are always afraid on what to do. Some say NCI is wrong while other agencies says its legal & what we should do. As with any job, we have to make quick descisions with a million variables looming over our heads. The legal mumbo-jumbo causes problems in my field. People are told contradictions on what do do for certain events. I have seen people fired or brought up on charges when they tried their hardest to protect the safety of the individual in their care. And at the same time I have seem people charged w/ abuse & neglect because they just didn't know what to do (due to the legal confusions). People have tried to stab me, I have had to chase down elopers, have been spit in the face, kicked, hit, wipped with an electrical cord, bear-hugged from behind, etc. I think I know this field. So to say I don't know the job because YOU "think" physical intervention shouldn't happen is illogical.
    Yet again, this is way beyond my point. Many MRs or those with mental disorders can seem like Mr. Friendly and then try to kill you when you turn your back. I am not putting blame on the man. I am saying that people do not know that facts yet. Maybe the cops were to blame. That is for the DA to determine and for us to debate after-the-fact. But until then... STOP ATTACKING THE POLICE!!!

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      OK, this is what I KNOW about working with the MR/DD/Mentally ill community in a residential/institutional setting.

      1.  The workers that do most of the direct care have no specific training/education outside of what the facility gives them.  In many cases, a highschool diploma is the required education.  Other times it is a CNA (12-18 months of generalized nurses aid training)

      2.  The shift supervisor most usually holds an LPN (2 year nursing) degree.  If the patients are really lucky then he or she is an RN.  Their job isn't to care for the patients, it is to give meds and do paperwork.

      3.  That, generally, the first person on the food chain that actually may hold a degree specifically on working with the MR/DD is the supervisor directly over the LPNs/RNs.  Generally this person doesn't even work on site.  If they do it is in an office off ward.

      Am I warm yet?

      So a safe assumption, and you tell me if I am wrong, is that if you are working directly with patients you have absolutely no pre-employment education on the population.

      Furthermore, I would assume-unless the patient is extremely volatile, that the standard 1 aid to 4 patients applies.  One-on-one is exceedingly rare as it would bite into the profits of the medical facility.  So you are unable to monitor little things like self-stimulating behaviors that would warn of an impending melt-down. (I.E.if the patient has been rocking or pacing all day, it is likely they are agitated.)

      Once you get to the point when you have to "talk them down" you are already pretty screwed.  However, it at 8 that morning a patient showed irritation and someone would  have offered an outlet THEN, than chances are you wouldn't be about to get your ass kicked.

      Then there's the whole "So what?" outlook.  You've been spit on? So what?  It's part of the job.  That's why a person with a high school diploma can earn double the national average by working in a residential home.  OMG! You had to run after someone who ran... also part of the job.  The electrical cord and the stabbing one really amuses me, because I assume it was your job to make sure that the clients didn't have access to things that could hurt them or the staff.  As far as being hit or kicked, assuming it wasn't because of your winning personality, if after working with an MR for over a day you can't tell when it's coming than you really need to take a course in body language.  Or maybe just stand out of their arms reach after you piss them off.

      Control the situation, not the person.

      As far as police procedures go, I have exactly as much knowledge as you do, if not more.  My opinion is based on exactly as much information as yours and therefore equally as valid.

  34. DualGemini777 profile image60
    DualGemini777posted 5 years ago

    Melissa,

    I would tell you of my books, learning, college, my studies on Jung and many other things, but would what be the point? You've made up your mind about me based on a few lines in cyber space.  You appear to be given to assumptions and a need to eh, "control the situation."
    I would tell you that at my place of unemployment, we have one on one staff except for when the clients are sleeping, but that would only encourage more tiresome, endless debate. There are people who for whatever reason, feel that they have to be.....must be right, and are not satisfied until they have the last word. It's yours. This has become tiresome.I bid you farewell.

  35. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    (AP)  SANTA ANA, Calif. - Prosecutors charged one police officer with murder and another with manslaughter Wednesday in the killing of a defenseless, mentally ill homeless man who was pummeled, shocked with a Taser and beaten with the butt of a stun gun.
    Fullerton Officer Manuel Ramos was charged with one count each of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter in the death of 37-year-old Kelly Thomas after a violent confrontation with officers on July 5, Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas said at a news conference.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/ … 9623.shtml

    Of course they are innocent until proven guilty  but it is pretty obvious that this was a cold blooded murder.  I only hope that justice is carried out fully.

    This man would have had the right to defend himself in this situation.  Our servants need to realize this before committing unneccasary bodily harm against the People!

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It looks like at least partial justice will prevail - I'm glad to see that the system is working, at least in that location.  I have a little trouble understanding why 1 was charged instead of 6, but of course I don't have any details on the incident or what IA found.

      The real problem now will be finding jurors that are objective and ready to examine evidence before determining guilt ("Of course they are innocent until proven guilty  but it is pretty obvious that this was a cold blooded murder").  Any trial should probably be moved to a different locality or even state.

      *edit* re-reading the link I see there are two cops charged; that makes a little more sense, but I still don't understand why more are not in the same boat.

  36. Reality Bytes profile image93
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    The fact that the man might have been mentally ill is completely irrelevant to the entire episode.

    Making excuses for the Officers of Law enforcement pertaining to this murder diminishes the value of a human beings life.

  37. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    If you see the photographs of this man in the hospital it is clear these officers beat him to death.  No matter how badly he was behaving, they had other options for restraining him.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image69
      Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      +++

  38. wilderness profile image95
    wildernessposted 5 years ago

    And the saga continues with ever more that are quite willing to convict without evidence.

    Or is Psychskinner an unlicensed coroner?  Coroner because they are the only ones I'm aware of that are trained to determine cause of death and unlicensed because no coroner worth his/her license would ever make such a determination from a few photos of a live hospital patient.

    What part of "innocent until proven guilty" is being misunderstood?  It doesn't say "innocent until the mob decides, without ever looking at any evidence, that they are guilty"!

    1. Danny R Hand profile image61
      Danny R Handposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The police and the courts, all across this country, treat the public as though they are guilty until proven innocent. If me, or you, or any other person, inflicted the damage that man endured on another person, it wouldn't have mattered if they had pictures or not. JAIL would be our new home for a long time. Unless of course you are an officer, judge, or a lawyer. Then it would just be me, or any other person who does not work within the justice system.

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Absolutely - that's why all cops indiscriminately shoot to kill anyone they think just might be guilty; because they are guilty until proven innocent.  That's why we use the jury system; because rabid judges will automatically jail everyone they see without regard to innocence. 

        That's why if someone tries to mug you and you hurt them in self defense while trying not to you will go to jail forever.  It's why cops carry tasers and bean bag guns - so they can kill anyone that gets in their way. 

        All because all cops, judges and lawyers are dirty and will jail or kill anyone they can get their hands on.

    2. psycheskinner profile image80
      psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      When you see a man with two black eyes, lacerations and head swollen to the size of a basketball who later died of blunt force trauma (as ruled by a coroner) you don't need to be a coroner yourself to conclude he was beaten. 

      There is also the whole beating captured on video. 

      There is also the fact that both officers have been convicted in a court of law.

      No, they are not innocent. What part of "convicted" doe you not understand?

      1. Reality Bytes profile image93
        Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        They are waiting trial.  Yet to be convicted and we know how California Juries behave?

  39. Ralph Deeds profile image69
    Ralph Deedsposted 5 years ago

    Widespread Abuse of Prisoners in Los Angeles Jails

    LOS ANGELES — One inmate said he was forced to walk down a hallway naked after sheriff’s deputies accused him of stealing a piece of mail. They taunted him in Spanish, calling him a derogatory name for homosexuals.
    Enlarge This Image
    Monica Almeida/The New York Times

    An A.C.L.U. monitor said she saw several deputies beat a man inside the Twin Towers jail.

        Another former inmate said that after he protested that guards were harassing a mentally ill prisoner, the same deputies took him into another room, slammed his head into a wall and repeatedly punched him in the chest.

    And a chaplain said he saw deputies punching an inmate until he collapsed to the ground. They then began kicking the apparently unconscious man’s head and body.

    The examples are just a fraction of dozens of detailed allegations of abuse in Los Angeles County’s Men’s Central Jail and Twin Towers, according to a report that the American Civil Liberties Union is expected to file in Federal District Court here on Wednesday. The Los Angeles County jail system, the nation’s largest, is also the nation’s most troubled, according to lawyers, advocates and former law enforcement officials.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/us/ac … ystem.html

    1. vjh profile image61
      vjhposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      contempt of cop is becoming a popular phrase more and more in this country.  When an entity has a monopoly on force and aggression such as the police and they are given instruments to kill, electrocute, and stun we better do what hey say or suffer the wrath. especially when what they do is mostly above reproach or question unless their misdeeds are caught on camera.

  40. brimancandy profile image83
    brimancandyposted 5 years ago

    I have personally witnessed homeless men being roughed up by the cops. The first time was a man who was in a fountain picking up change. He was bent over putting change from the fountain in his hat, and the police officer walked up behind him and kicked him. The man fell into the fountain, and the cop dragging him out, and threw him on the ground, and took the hat and threw it down the sidewalk, change flying everywhere. The guy stood up and he threw him to the ground, and made him get up, and told him to walk away. He said if I see you pick up any of that money I am going to haul your ass off to jail. The homeless man left, and the cop started going around picking up the change and putting it in his pockets. So, we know who paid for the Coffee and Doughnuts that week.

    The second time was at an Arby's. A homeless man was in the building, going from table to table asking people for money. I guess the managers told him to leave and he wouldn't, so they called the police. Two female officers showed up, and dragged the man out of the building, and thumped him up against the wall. They had him empty the contents of his pockets into his hat, and then took his hat and whipped it out into the street. And it was a busy street!

    He tried to run to the street to get his hat, and one of the lady cops tripped him, and the other grabbed him and twisted his hand behind his back. I over heard them saying they were going to give him "Greyhound therapy" if they ever saw him in the area again. And, I know what that means. Putting him on a bus and dropping him off in the middle of nowhere, hoping he won't be able to come back. I heard that they do that with lots of homeless people.

    I thought about reporting these cops. But, it seems to be that it would fall on deaf ears. These cops wouldn't be roughing these people up, unless they were trained to do so by their superiors. All I know is, I wouldn't ever want to be homeless in my city. People could give a rats ass about you, and the authorities only want to get rid of you as fast as they can.

    The sad thing is, there is more charity going to third world countries with rich middle men, and money going to save animals, then there is to help those who are homeless, or in need in the U.S. So, when these people start protesting, why not also stop at your local homeless shelter and help some of these people out. It's not going to be hard these days for anyone to be homeless.

    1. vjh profile image61
      vjhposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      and for some strange reason its unlawful in most cities to video record on duty officers

      1. brimancandy profile image83
        brimancandyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        They are trying to pass that law, so that the general public cannot see all the laws the police are breaking to arrest anyone that might be a threat, whether that person is a threat or not. Police have those cameras in their cars, and, if they want to beat someone, they know just how far to get out of camera range, so that they don't end up on the news.

        The beating of Rodney King started the whole Police caught on film thing, and, this is why they want to ban filming, so nobody catches them at the same act again. Thus taking away any victims right to use video as evidence in police brutality trial. Money is what it's all about.

  41. WD Curry lll profile image61
    WD Curry lllposted 5 years ago

    This is an interesting dilema. I worked in the field. An adolescent mental health facility with locked units for severely emotionally disturbed. Suffice it to say that I have seen some good arguements for demon posession. The real tragedy is . . . the man was homeless and alone in his miserable condition.

    I remember when Ronald Regan publicly pulled the plug on federal programs. Mental health funding was one of the first to go. He insisted that it was not the government's job, but the responsibility of the private sector to provide services. I am a registered independent, but I agree. However, we simply opened the doors, turned the mentally ill loose, and locked the doors behind them. There was no transition time for the private sector to pick up the slack.

    Sorry about our luck, private sector . . . the time is now! Forget the cops. They aren't equipped to deal with this. As a Christian, I would remind the "Church" that we are the private sector and it is our mandated resposibility to help these folks out. Unfortunately our best efforts are geared to fund raising for pet projects (Crystal Cathedrals and Majesty Buidings) or perpetution of self actualizing "ministries" of the self  proclaimed. It is to our shame that this incident took place. Let's get going!

  42. handymanbill profile image62
    handymanbillposted 5 years ago

    aving a son who is in his thirty’s and is diagnosed with schizophrenia. Having dealt with someone with this condition is difficult. You can‘t force someone to take their medication.  Believe me they can be quite a handful finding a way to restrain them. I have had first hand experience dealing with mental illness. It is hard. They see angels in the clouds, Dragons in the woods, and vampires waiting outside to name a few. I understand that a lot of the homeless have mental problems and will not take their Medication. That is why they are homeless. A lot of mentally disabled people have problems taking their medication because of the adverse reactions that come by taking them. The belief that it is poison, Diarrhea, Constriction of your throat, Extreme shakes and tremors, and excessive sleeping to name a few. In this state it is called Act 302. It requires a medical professional or police officer or someone can self admit themselves to get a person admitted to an institution for an evaluation and then only if they are a danger to themselves or others. Then they are released when the Doctors feel that their medical condition has stabilized. As a parent or relative there is little or nothing that can be done to make someone take their medication. Act 302 was put into effect because of cases where people were committing people to get them out of the way to take control of some family situation. It is in my opinion that poor training of the police officers were the cause of this and they should lose their jobs, and pensions. There job is to protect and serve. They should be arrested charged and tried like anyone else. This is really an injustice.

    1. Reality Bytes profile image93
      Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      It was not poor training.  It was an out of control violent man (probably mentally ill himself) that found his way on to the Police Force.  This was not the first time this cop did things like this.  I know people just like him. They are sadistic and enjoy thinking they have authority over others.  If this cop did not kill this man he would have killed another.

      The only thing that stops guys like this is a large caliber round penetrating the cranium or imprison him and keep him segregated from the rest of the inmates. 

      Though in this instance I would like to see this creep in general pop.

  43. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    They were arrested and tried and found guilty.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Wow!  CBS reports nine days ago that they ( two of the six) had been charged and they are already tried and found guilty! 

      Sounds more like the mob opinion that found them guilty - not the court system.

      1. psycheskinner profile image80
        psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        How about the video showing them beating him for a long time and the fact he was immediately hospitalized where he died of the injuries?

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          How about the idea of "innocent until found guilty by a jury of his peers".  A jury - not a mob of angry people that don't care a flip about justice, but only want blood?  Any blood, guilty OR innocent?

    2. Reality Bytes profile image93
      Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The guys just made bail?  No trial yet.

 
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