Hatred of Jews and Israel . . .

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   Longhunterposted 12 years ago

   Anti-semitizam - Prejudice, discrimination or hostility directed against Jews.
   
   With all the anti-Israel posts presented here on HubPages, I've gotten the impression some here would like nothing more than to see Israel as a radioactive, smoking hole.
   
   Is anti-semitism alive and thriving here on HubPages?

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Hubs and forum posts can say pretty much anything that isn't a personal attack or illegal. So, yes, pretty much any prejudice can be found here somewhere.

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      Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That wasn't the question. In your opinion, is anti-semitism alive and thriving here on HubPages?

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         psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         And my answer was: Hubpages just reflects what people feel, and a lot of people have prejudices against one group or another. So yes, but not to any surprising or disproportionate extent. I suspect it would make the top ten of groups people post nasty things about here.

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            Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So if it "just reflects what people feel", does that make it okay?

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               psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               You asked a question about what "is", not what "ought".

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               Ralph Deedsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Of course not. I haven't noticed anti-Semtic comments. Any examples?  I don't doubt that Netanyahu and his policies have contributed to anti-Semitism as well as well-intentioned criticism of Israel from supporters of a reasonable two-state solution providing security for Israel and statehood for Palestine.

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   No. I don't see it as anti semitism. Just because some don't appreciate policies that favor one country over another, doesn't mean anyone hates Jews. I personally believe Israel,  the American government and countless others have done things they should be held accountable for. I don't see this as anti semitic.
   
   Anti semitic could also be not expecting Israel to be capable of seeing how their policies hurt Palestine. Do you think the people of Israel are less bright than others? I don't. Do you think Israelis lack the ability to feel compassion? I don't.

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   Ralph Deedsposted 12 years ago

   Criticizing Israel's policies toward Palestine is not anti-Semitism.  Netanyahu's policies have isolated Israel in the minds of people in many democratic countries around the world. These policies are also contributing to the growth of terrorism in the Middle East, Europe and elsewhere. Plenty of Jews in Israel and the U.S.  are critical of Netanyahu and fundamentalist Jewish settlers. I haven't noticed anti-Semitism in this forum. There are several racist participants, however.

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      livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree, except I have noticed a couple of anti-Semites here. The vast majority of people who criticize Israel do so in an even-handed manner, so they're not anti-Semitic.
      
      The whole "left is anti-Semitic" charge was invented by the right to deflect the racism in the Tea Party movement.

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         Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I've noticed one anti-Semite in particular here on HP but I won't name names. That person's obvious hatred of Jews and Israel was the reason for me starting the forum.
         
         JMO, perhaps the "left is anti-Semitic" charge was leveled due the some on the Left's anti-Israel stance.
         
         And, while there's "bad seeds" in every movement, I don't see racism in the overall Tea Party movement.
         
         The Tea Party's mission statement states:
         
         "The impetus for the Tea Party movement is excessive government spending and taxation. Our mission is to attract, educate, organize, and mobilize our fellow citizens to secure public policy consistent with our three core values of Fiscal Responsibility, Constitutionally Limited Government and Free Markets."
         
         No where in there does it say "because we hate Obama because he's black."
         
         BUT, the Tea Party is a topic for another forum.
         
         I would just like to discuss why it seem s like so many Hubbers seem to hate Jews and Israel.

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            Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Disagreeing with a nations domestic and/or foreign policy hardly equates to a hate crime. Suggesting that Israels policies, under Netanyahu, and towards the Palestinians, does not equate to anti-antisemitism either.

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               Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Agreed, Hollie. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to it as I'm the step son of a Jew and have heard his stories as well as those of my grandmother before her death.
               
               The idea that someone would attack me and say I'm taking the side of the Nazis is beyond me and, frankly, infuriated me. I know what those SOBs did to my step dad's people. Then to think he fought for this person to have the right to say such stupid things seemed like such a waste of his effort and he doesn't deserve that.
               
               Couple that with other posts I've seen against Israel, I decided to post the forum.

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                  lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Are you a Zionist? A Likud Party member?
                  
                  If not...no one was talking to you.
                  
                  And, some of the TP compared Obama to Hitler....not a word from you?
                  I say the Zionists act like Nazi's...it's anti-semite, Jew-Hating LMC.
                  
                  The hate is coming from you towards me. And believe me, I feel it.

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                  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  My maternal grandparents were Jewish(now dead) I'm well aware of the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis, however, we can't simply look the other way when a nation (or rather a far right government and a bunch of settlers) abuses the human rights of another group, particularly when the other group is as powerless as the Palestinians.
                  
                  You know, the extreme right in Israel do behave like Nazi's, they may not be rounding up Arabs and sending them to concentration camps, but they have committed some terrible abuses and I would even go as far as to say they have attempted to de-humanize Arabs by forcing them to live like animals. This view is not antisematic, you only have to pick up a copy of Hareetz to see their are a whole group of Jewish Israelis that feel the same way.

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                  recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You say earlier you notice one poster - then you go on to talk about the amount of hatred toward Jews - you are being totally disingenuous and this is the mark of racism.
                  
                  The overwhelming majority of posters here, including those that criticise Israel, are clearly NOT anti-semitic, and partly this is because most right wing posters are pro-semitic, and they are usually those posters who are also racist, in the main.
                  
                  Israel has devalued its position on the moral high ground (after the concentration camps) which has not only cost it most of its support around the world, it has invited a serious backlash.  Those who point this out are not anti-semitic or lefties, they are reasonable people who can see tyranny and heavy handedness when it manifests itself.

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                     Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Well said.
                     Including recognizing when our own country (whatever country we might be from) is being tyrannical and heavy-handed.

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            livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Don't these 2 statements contradict each other?

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               Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               What part didn't you like?

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                  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  It's not about liking. You said there is one person who you consider anti-Semitic. And then you say there are so many anti-Semites here on HubPages. Which one is it? Since when is one person "so many"?

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                     Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     There's one I've dealt with directly and I will not name names. There have also been other posts I've read that are clearly anti-Israel and some that I would consider anti-semitic. Am I going to go back and find them all? No.

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            S Leretsehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I thought you said you were a church going Christian?  No question in my mind longboy... w/  this paranoid delusional rant of yours here,  you are jewish.  Why would say you're Christian? If you're jewish ...  say you're jewish.

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               Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Go away, Leretseh. You barely deserve a response except to say spread your brand of bigotry somewhere else. Frankly, you're not wanted here.

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                  S Leretsehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  shalom... Kol Tuv ... L'hitraot.

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                     Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Goodbye. Good riddance. Be gone, bigot.

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   lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3a1bw5XlE

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      Ralph Deedsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      She makes the point convincingly. Tnx,

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   If this is all really about one person perhaps you should just flag comments under the 'hate speech' category whenever they qualify.  Short of that they are free to have their opinion.

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      Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This isn't just because of one person although one in particular was the "final straw" to make me decide to submit the forum.
      
      Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer of free speech for all in this country. It's just that this one was a little over the top, IMO, and I don't like the idea of reporting anyone. Although I will say I thought about doing just that.

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   lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

   "It is the white phosphorous and Depleted Uranium and the torture and starvation of Palestinian children by Jewish adults that we oppose. As Lady Renouf said, “There had to be Anti-Gentilism before there could have been anti-Semitism.” In fact she says she thinks the Jews invented the term anti-Semitism as a propaganda tool to move the debate from opposing bad Jewish behavior to hating their race."
   
   You object to my saying Zionists are Nazi's?
   
   What about the Tea-Party signs portraying Obama as Hitler?
   Was that anti-semitic?

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   lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

   Helen Thomas:
   
   In America, you can insult the president all you want. But you cannot criticize Israel.

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   lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

   And maybe you should listen to some of the stories from Palestine....

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    The Scary Truthposted 12 years ago

    Maybe we should keep our nose out of other people problems, If your neighbors are having an argument, are you going to run over and play mediator? The only thing we do by butting in is delaying the inevitable. They want the same thing, and neither are going to give up to get it. Are we to play the parent and say neither can have it? That wouldnt work so well.

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       Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       As I've stated here on HP, I don't agree with how Israel was set up. But now that it's done, do we leave them to be the 'sitting ducks' for every Jew-hating dictator or extremist with a nuke?

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          The Scary Truthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I love the nuke argument. You know there are enough nuclear weapons on the earth to destroy it 24 times, isn't once enough? In every place of the world, there is a group hating it. Once they nuke one, they'll move onto the next target, there is a way to end it. theres only one problem, there are these gready little creatures on this planet, they are called humans.

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             Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Yeah, I love the whole nuke thing, too, ST. Now, tell me what are we suppose to do when the Iranian president says he's working on getting one or has one depending on whatever day of the week it and he wants to use it on Israel?
             
             We helped set them up in that special little sand box so what are we suppose to do when the neighborhood bully starts his crap? Just leave them to their own devices after we helped create the overall problem?

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                Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I think you meant neighborhood "bully" (?)
                But I'm not certain whose sandbox you are referring to here?
                We helped to create Israel, yes.
                Are you suggesting the US should nuke Iran?

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                   Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   Yes, I did mean bully and I corrected it. Thanks.
                   
                   The special sand box I was referring to is the Middle East.
                   
                   No, I'm not suggesting we or israel nuke Iran. What I'm saying is we helped put the Jews where they are and they keep getting threatened. Are we now suppose to walk away and say, "You kick his ass (Iran). We're done."

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                Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                But the Israeli government is not helping Israel, perhaps more emphasis should be put on Netanyahu to end the settlement building and concentrate seriously on a deal for peace. He can't have it all ways. Settlement building is obstructing the peace process and his behavior and policies inflame the situation.

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                   Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   I agree that there must be give and take on both sides, Hollie. But are we (U.S.) suppose to just walk away as some here would love to see happen?

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                      Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      I believe the US and the UK should call Netanyahu out. If he's telling the truth and really wants to strike a peace deal, he'd put a stop  the settlement building and comply with international law. The US and indeed the rest of the world, cannot keep bailing the greedy, far right out and neither can Israeli or Palestinian citizens.

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                         The Scary Truthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         I dont know about the UK but the US really doesn't have the resources, we cant even take care of our own country let alone another countries problem, and I do recall the last people we helped came back and drove 2 planes in the world trade center.  Im just gonna go ahead and teach you something right now, there is only 1 way we create something with out destroying something, For 1 to have a country they will have to destroy the other. I know in a perfect world we should be able to comingle in peace, but each wants its own patch of dirt, and until 1 gets it all, this wont stop.

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                            Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                            The UK can't afford it either. Now, I'm going to teach you something right here, the only way we can create something without destroying something, is to stop turning a blind eye to what's really happening, and to stop funding tyranny, Netanyahu's Govt is tyrannical. Without the real means there is no way.

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                               The Scary Truthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                               well thats not createing anything thats just destroying, im kidding of coarse.

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       psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       If my neighbor is beating their spouse or kids or assaulting or possibly murdering a any person--yes, I sure as hell so go over whilst calling 911 and shouting at the top of my voice.

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          The Scary Truthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          And if you get shot in the process? or beaten? then you add youself to the body count, and that what your help will cause a greater body count.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    The logical inconsistency between only noticing one and saying there are many.

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       livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       This.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    Did you also notice similar comments directed at all sorts of other groups? This forum is not heavily moderated, so there is plenty to go around.

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       Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Sure, I've noticed them.
       
       Lets say part of your family was Jewish and you knew well what had been done to the Jews simply for being Jews. Then you were called and/or compared to the Nazis time after time. Would that piss you off?

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          psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I have similar connections to other groups.  It pisses me off but Hubpages decides how to run the place, and I notice that it applies equally to everyone.

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    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    You mean like people saying you hate America because you support Barak Obama...like that?

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    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    I personally cannot recall seeing ANY blatantly anti-Semitic posts on the HP forums.
    I have seen what I consider some provocative statements accusing people of being anti-Semitic.
    For example, asserting that anyone who opposes Israel's current policies hates Jews and therefore thinks the Holocaust was a good "start" to eradicate them.
    That right there is inflammatory AND logically flawed.
    
    The problem is the oft-exploited confusion between Judaism and Israel. One is a faith and a community of people. The other is a country.
    
    I may agree that Israel has a right to exist but not agree with how the government there is being run or its treatment of Palestinians.
    No matter what my feelings about Israel, those beliefs are completely unrelated to my feelings about Judaism as a faith or Jewishness as a culture -- particularly Jewish-American culture (with which I am intimately familiar, having grown up in NY and married to a Jewish man for 10 years).
    
    So, am I an anti-Semite?

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       Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       No, you're not a anti-semite.
       
       Given your family history, would you have a problem being called or referred to as a Nazi?
       
       It was I that asked another hubber if they thought the Holocaust was a good start. Inflammatory? Yes. But it was an honest question given the fact I had the clear impression that person wouldn't have a problem with seeing Israel on the evening news as a radioactive, smoking hole.

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          Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I understand your point, LH. But again, I don't see the comparison as apt.
          Wishing to see Israel negotiate and "play nice" with Palestine and the Palestinians living within its borders has nothing to do with the Holocaust (in my mind).
          That was a very targeted anti-JEWISH (the religion) campaign.
          I honestly have not seen anyone suggesting blowing the state of Israel up into a hole.
          Even if (and I do NOT sanction this) some group or country was to obliterate Israel, that would be a far cry from exterminating (or trying to exterminate) the entire Jewish race.
          
          Trying to think of a parallel here.
          If I disagree with the governmental policies of Berlusconi, does that make me anti-Catholic, since Italy is a heavily Catholic country?
          Or how about this one. I may be angry with or suspicious of the Pakistani government and its connection with Bin Laden/al Queada. I may wish to see Pakistan "punished" in some way for promoting anti-American terrorism. But even that is a far, far cry from hating Muslims or wishing to wipe Islam off the globe.
          
          Does this make sense? 
          As for being called a Nazi,I have been. On several occasions here.
          Certain posters call all liberals socialists, communists, fascists and yes, even Nazis.
          Sticks and stones and swastikas may break my bones but silly baseless labels will never hurt me.

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             Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             MM, I've been called every name in the book here and in person. Most names don't both me and I usually consider the source and move on.
             
             But, to me, being called a Nazi is like calling a black man the 'N' word as far as I'm concerned. It's something I do not like and will not put up with from anyone, especially considering the source here.
             
             As for Israel, I understand the country and the faith are two separate things. But in a lot of ways, they're not. If they're attacked and/or wiped out, there are some here on HubPages and everywhere else that would be happy to see it happen, not because it would just be Israel being hit but the Jewish faith as well.

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                Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I firmly believe you believe that LH and that makes me very sad.
                I can't think of a single hubber that I can picture having such violent, destructive thoughts about Jews. Or frankly, about any group of people.
                
                I will state, from my decades of experience living in the midst of a strong Jewish culture in NY, that being Jewish does not correlate 100% with being Zionist. The staunch (some might even call it rabid) "Pro-Israel at any cost" stance I see here on HP is not representative of the Jewish people I've known in my life. Not to say the Jews I've known don't support Israel's right to exist. Just they're not maniacal in defense of indefensible Israeli policies.
                
                Actually, this Israel right or wrong seems to be much more associated with some ultra-right Christians. For example, the day I saw Sarah Palin voguing in NY wearing a Star of David I was honestly shocked.
                
                I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the HP shed.But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's really going on here. The people who protest the loudest about Israel don't give a flying bagel about Jews.
                But they do care quite a bit about the non-Jewish Middle East countries and (ahem) the natural resources lying therein.
                
                
                As to calling someone (you) a Nazi, your concerns are duly noted. It is a horrible epithet (like the "N" word or the "c" word) but so ridiculous on EVERY LEVEL as to be rendered inert.

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                   Longhunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   When it comes down to, there's never going to be peace in the Middle East and there's not a thing we (U.S.) can do to facilitate it. They have to both want it. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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                      Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      Agree 100%, RB.
                      Nor do I think it's our (US) place to try to make it happen.
                      We have more than enough to worry about here at home.
                      More than enough!

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                         livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         I also think our activism does not help things. Telling Israel that we'll support them no matter what they do is just creating a brat. Do we really want to be that overindulgent parent and ruin our "child"? I guess many supporters do. (The reason so many right-wing Christians support Israel is a violent confrontation there is part of their doomsday scenario, in which they're rewarded by a return of the big JC)
                         
                         Both sides are approaching equality over there, in terms of the percentage of violent, intransigent zealots, and military power. We should be pulling back and allowing them to solve things on their own.

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                lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Being called a Jew-Hating Anti-Semite, Anti-American America-Hater is like being called the N word too.
                
                Maybe some people ought to not throw rocks if they don't want to be hit by them.
                
                ...Knowing how they would like all Muslims and Liberals to disappear off the planet.

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                   The Scary Truthposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   You do realize a big smoking radio active hole would solve the problem, then nobody would want it. At least that was Stalins thought process "No people. No problems"

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    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    Even now?
    I call Zionists Nazi's and you say I want to see Israel as a radio-active smoking hole.
    ....and there is nothing honest about it.

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    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    "As for any arguments based on the obvious or perceived differences between Zionism and Nazism, we can easily dismiss them as superficialities, rather than any differences that make a difference. Substantively, they are identical manifestations of the same basic pathology and they are equally dangerous to the well being of humanity. We can comfort ourselves with the knowledge that the bullies never win in the end, because underneath the bluster they are abject cowards and cowardice can’t sustain itself in the long term. But that doesn’t mean we can just sit back and wait for them to meet their inevitable fate – as we have seen, they are capable of doing immense harm in the meantime.
    
    All of the great wisdom traditions are in agreement that we are human beings first and anything else is at best a secondary characteristic. As long as there remains any confusion about this, various forms of fascism will arise and bedevil us. As long as we identify ourselves primarily in some tribal fashion, whether it's based on nationality, ethnicity, religion, gender or any parochial and exclusionary manner, then confusion and conflict will reign supreme. We shall indeed overcome, if we last that long, but only when it is universally understood that We refers to all of us. In the meantime, silence is complicity.
    
    If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, you better duck!"
    
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Roger Tucker is a Jewish American activist in the One Democratic State movement. His website is at http://onestate.info.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    And of course being Muslim or of Middle Eastern descent is a walk in the park... never an unkind word....

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       Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       You know psycheskinner, I would hate having to live as a Muslim in my country. The last decade or so, all I've seen is Islamaphobia, not anti-semitism. But, that somehow is never discussed.

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          Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Here, too, Hollie.
          
          And in their supreme ignorance, some haters are even targeting Sikhs because they wear turbans (so they must be Middle Eastern, Muslim terrorists, dontcha know!).
          
          A hellatious incident occurred just a few weeks ago here in Sacramento.
          A dry cleaning business was targeted with arson and graffiti. The owners?
          Palestinian CHRISTIANS, as it turned out.
          
          The people fomenting all this anti-Islamic hatred are not Jews. This has nothing to do with Israel whatsoever.
          
          The people perpetrating this misguided violence are neocon punks.

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             Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             I get you MM, I smiled at first about your post re: Palestinian Christians. Not because targeting or harassing any group is funny in any way. But, because my local off licence (shop that sells cigs and booze, don't know if you use this term in the US so just for clarification) was vandalized. They used spray paint and smeared "Go home you dirty, paki muslim B's" all over the windows. The owners are sikh, as if it's not bad enough to harbor those views. But even the most ignorant must surely be aware that a turban indicates a faith other than Islam, obviously not, pathetic.

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    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    
    
    
    FOOD FIGHT!!!

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    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Holding a critical view of Israel does not an anti-Semite make....nor does being a Jew in terms of ancestry of faith make one a supporter of Israel...

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    DonDWestposted 12 years ago

    Putting to words the evil committed by Israel isn't doing the situation justice. Seeing the videos and pictures of the horrors is all I need to know I'm in the right when I oppose this state and all that it stands for. . .
    
    Unfortunately, these videos cannot be posted in the likes of Hubpages (or at a political campaign for that matter) due to "being too gruesome." If such images were allowed to be posted publically; there wouldn't be an Israel. That's why such images are not allowed to be posted publically here, there, or in the public media.
    
    The kid with the bigger gun gets to say what gets shot; and who gets shot. When it comes to Israel, very little of what gets shot is the truth, and who gets shot is often innocent children.
    
    Conflict arises when it’s physically impossible for two camps to co-exist. From the perspective of the Israelis; they claim a religious right to a homeland and the belief that they’re a superior chosen people. In their eyes, the Palestinians are nothing but inconvenient bugs that happened to be there and must be removed. The Palestinians simply want a right to exist, live, and be free.
    
    Seeing that I’m not Jesus, merely a mortal, I have to pick a side. It’s impossible that both demands can be met. The Jews cannot accept being seen as an equal because it goes against their religion; and the Palestinians cannot accept Jewish supremacism because that will sentence them to slavery. Therefore being a man of conscious, I must choose.  . .
    
    Let’s say, for the sake of argument, the original poster is right. That opposing Israel is by extension opposing Judaism. That it’s “anti-Semitism” to not accept this concept Judaism; and that it opposes the religious freedom of the Jews. I’ll agree that religious freedom has its place; but not at the cost of the lives and freedom of another. Not if it means the theft of land and the violation of others property rights.
    
    To a point, if I’m left to choose between the Jews right to religion and the Palestinians right to live; I will choose the Palestinians rights to live. . . I’m pro-life before pro-religious practice. This is the epitome of law and justice; deciding what rights must be held above another in the event of conflict. Between the right to life and the right of religion; I choose life. It matters not whether they’re Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, etc.
    
    So, original poster, I hope you now have your answer why ordinary people such as me turn “anti-Semitic.” The fact of the matter is that you (and others who espouse your absolute views) have left us with no choice. You have forced us to choose between a Jewish supremacist religion and the life of a human being; and you haven't presented to us a viable alternative. I’m guilty as charged for choosing the life of a human being. Palestinians are human beings. If this makes me guilty of being anti-Semitic to recognize the Palestinians as human beings; so be it!

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       Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Well said, Don.
       We need only look at our own history to see why it is so very "American" to support Israel. Look how we dealt withthe native Americans when we decided we had a supreme right to this country.
       Inconvenient bugs who happened to be there first and must be moved or slaughtered.
       Hey -- perhaps the Palestinians should be given casinos to run.
       (jk)

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          DonDWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What I find ludicrous is how people justify what Israel is doing because of what Americans and Canadians did to the Native Americans. They argue I have no right to criticize Israel because we did the same to the Native Americans. The arguments can get rather strange and convoluted when I explain to them my grandmother is Native American. . .
          
          So let me see if I understand the rationality behind the argument. Only recently have we now admitted what was done to the Native Americans is wrong; and now that someone else is doing the same (under the blessing of our dollars, faith, and politics) that makes it right? What a preposterous position to make.
          
          I have no control over what my (majority white half) ancestors did to the Native Americans. If I could go back in time to prevent it, I would. However, I do have control over the present. I can truly do my part to oppose what happened then; by opposing something similar that's happening now.
          
          I may not be a religious man, but I can't help but feel that perhaps Israel represents a test. She represents an opportunity to learn from our past mistakes and to repent. Unfortunately, we have chosen the same old path. The result is we have yet another white colony in the 21st century that just happens to practice a different religion (let's not kid ourselves, Jews are a religion/culture, not a race). We all know the endgame and where this is heading. . .

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       livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       While I respect your sympathies towards Palestinians who (at least those living in the West Bank and Gaza) are still not fully enfranchised, and many of whom are being violently bullied by settlers, there are a number of inaccuracies in your post:
       
       - Most Israelis' justification for a Jewish homeland is not bound to the religion; in fact, many, many ultra-religious Jews will tell you that Israel as a secular state should not exist, and, in fact, they are against Israel's existence. The vast majority of Israel's founders saw it as a refuge for the world's Jews, and the only place that has had a continuous Jewish presence for over 2,000 years. And most Jews were not naive enough to believe that violent anti-Semitism would just go away after the Holocaust; there will probably always be a need for an Israel.
       
       - You misunderstand the Jewish concept of chosenness if you think it implies Jewish claims of supremacy. Your religion is far more explicitly supremacist than Judaism is (who is chosen by God in Christianity to get into Heaven?).
       
       - The Palestinians don't just want the right to exist and live free. At least in equal proportion to Israelis who think this way, they believe they have a 100% claim to the land and their goal is to destroy Israel. Read Hamas's charter if you're unclear about this, and still naive about all Palestinians' intentions.
       
       I agree that people should take the blinders off when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict, but that means if you're suggesting it, you might want to take your own advice. You seem to be eager to compare the most pacifist Palestinian with the most territorial Jewish settler, hardly an apples-to-apples comparison.

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          DonDWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          "Most Israelis' justification for a Jewish homeland is not bound to the religion; in fact, many, many ultra-religious Jews will tell you that Israel as a secular state should not exist, and, in fact, they are against Israel's existence."
          
          This is true, but I believe you misunderstood my post. I was presenting it from the perspective of the original poster who views Israel and Jews interchangeably.
          
          "The vast majority of Israel's founders saw it as a refuge for the world's Jews, and the only place that has had a continuous Jewish presence for over 2,000 years. And most Jews were not naive enough to believe that violent anti-Semitism would just go away after the Holocaust; there will probably always be a need for an Israel."
          
          Israel’s founders were nothing more than slimy opportunists who wanted to use past Jewish suffering for political and monetary gains at the expense of others.
          
          "You misunderstand the Jewish concept of chosenness if you think it implies Jewish claims of supremacy. Your religion is far more explicitly supremacist than Judaism is (who is chosen by God in Christianity to get into Heaven?)."
          
          I didn't misunderstand the Jewish concept of chosenness in the context of the thread. I'm well aware the Jewish Orthodox version of chosenness (the story of the exile/burden) is different than the version espoused by most Jews in Israel. For the majority of Jews in Israel; what I stated is the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of chosenness. This belief in chosenness is what compels many to the horrifying acts committed against the Palestinians.
          
          "The Palestinians don't just want the right to exist and live free. At least in equal proportion to Israelis who think this way, they believe they have a 100% claim to the land and their goal is to destroy Israel. Read Hamas's charter if you're unclear about this, and still naive about all Palestinians' intentions."
          
          If someone took my land; I would want 100% of it back too. That's only human. As I said, this is the nature of conflict. It’s a little hard to reclaim what was stolen without kicking out the thieves; I wish there was another way.  . .
          
          "I agree that people should take the blinders off when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict, but that means if you're suggesting it, you might want to take your own advice. You seem to be eager to compare the most pacifist Palestinian with the most territorial Jewish settler, hardly an apples-to-apples comparison."
          
          Then let's compare the most extreme to the most extreme. The most extreme Israeli is a person who believes he's a God chosen person hell bent on conquering. The most extreme Palestinian is a desperate person who blows himself up trying to oppose an occupation against overwhelming force. This desperate Palestinian will naturally develop hatred to the very people oppressing him and may shout out Allah.
          
          Sorry, picking the right side is all too easy. There's no balance in oppression; we have the oppressors and the oppressed. I side with the oppressed...

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          DonDWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          BTW, the most extreme Israeli wouldn't be the settlers. While the settlers are evil; they come in a distant fourth place behind the Israeli government, military and financial institutions.

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    livelongerposted 12 years ago

    Well, I clearly misjudged you when I said your intentions were respectful. You're yet another person who's fallen for a reductive black-and-white portrayal of things. You're part of the problem, and not part of the eventual (if it ever happens) solution.

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       DonDWestposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Spoken like someone truly beaten in an argument. The fact of the matter is the Israeli position is indefensible. You're defending the most brutal tyranny of our era. And like many before you; you're in denial that you've wasted so many years of life defending an unjust cause.
       
       There's a simple solution in how bullies must be dealt with; and that is they must face the consequences for their actions. Israel must face the consequences for her actions. Unfortunately, that will most likely mean a lesson in humility through military defeat. As long as Israel can continue to use the military card without consequences; there will be no peace. This of course doesn't mean the annexation of Isreal, last I checked, Germany is still here after the Nazis were defeated.

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          livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          No, spoken like a person who has heard this line of "argument" before way too many times, and sees the utter futility of further discussion. Another hallmark is putting words in my mouth, something that's not unimaginable for a person who's has a George W. Bush "you're either with us or against us" way of seeing the world.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    I think you guys should get a room.

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       livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       No need. I'm done. Anything else you'd like us to do?

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          psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Make me a sandwich?

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             livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Working on it. Anything else?

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