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Death by Policy-Cops Kill 15-year old

  1. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    Bring your younger, bring your year-old and we will kill them!

    Cops shoot 15-year-old in Brownsville, Texas.

       http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45870968/ns … nd_courts/

    Apparently the 15-year-old brother pellet gun to school and punched a student in the nose. It was reported that when the police arrived the kid in the corridor pulled out this pellet gun which look like a real gun. It was also stated that the child was warned by the police regarding putting down the weapon but once the child pointed be pellet gun to towards the police officers three real bullets headed in his direction with two of them hitting him.

    Clearly we are interested in not seeing that police officers are injured as we provide them with bulletproof protection gear as well as other life-saving gear. Authorities call out a negotiators for a bank robbery, hostages situation so how is it the law says parents can not spank their children, parents are held responsible for the actions of their children however if the police finds the child perceive to be a threat they have no other recourse but to kill!

    Any parent knows that children can be difficult, often not thinking clearly and not understanding the situations they have put themselves in if the law does care about children how then can we not make better decisions as to dealing with children while remaining safe for example using rubber bullets, tear gas, pepper spray we are talking about one untrained 15-year-old against at least three police officers?

    1. profile image59
      Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      15 is old enough to know the consequesnces.

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I don't agree with you, people are not alway at the same intellectual level. The reason we make allowances for children as we understand they don't understand the situations they get themselves into that is why we treat children differently.

        1. profile image59
          Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          15 is old enough to understand that if you do something you will get shot.

          Wether you agree or not is irrelevant. The facts can be determined by going and asking a bunch of 15 year olds if they think what he did was stupid.

          I am fairly sure that most will say yes. I am a little surprised that you dont think so.

          1. SpanStar profile image60
            SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            What surprises me is our willingness to accept to death by policy or procedure. It used to be a time when people genuinely concerned with the citizens they were supposed to be protecting. But now if we have a righteous  kill that we can all feel justified that we've done a good job-something is seriously wrong with a society that is more concerned with protecting their own behind then the life of a child, or someone mentally unbalanced at the time.

            1. profile image59
              Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I dont think it is necessarily to do with policy. You are asking for policemen to not shoot when they have a gun pointed at their face.

              1. SpanStar profile image60
                SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I'm asking them to do more than standard quote. They had a gun pointed at them but it was a toy gun and how many police officers does it take to bring down a 15-year-old child? Are they so afraid of a pellet gun that lethal force is the only solution? A woman pointed a cell phone as an officer in one incident fortunately another officertook the time to recognize that it was a cell phone-why is it that we can't wait to kill someone?

                1. profile image59
                  Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  A phone is easily distinguishable from a gun. A gun however, looks like a gun no matter how much time you take to look at it.

                  I cant see any logic in your argument.

                  1. SpanStar profile image60
                    SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    I see all kinds of logic in my argument. If a cell phone was as you proclaim it to be easy to recognize how then if it were not for the second officer this woman would have been shot since they called it in as her having a gun. Make no mistake had the second officer not called out this woman would have been shot she is not the first know what you did last as long as we stick to the ignorance procedure justifies our actions. If that be the case we can use robots as police officers.

          2. novicemuse profile image60
            novicemuseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus Isnt Happy—While I think that most 15 yr olds should know not to do that, also you have to consider that their reasoning is one of the things that they get last. The frontal cortex grows relatively slowly and is still being formed into the mid twenties, which is responsible for reasoning skills and basic judgements. Teenagers also consider risks differently than adults and if they think there is a reward in an action they're doing, they're more inclined to do it than adults. I don't know what kind of reward he could have thought there was, maybe he thought he'd tell this story to his friends and they'd be awed by his fearlessness, but I'm just saying it's proven that kids do think differently and don't have as much reasoning capacity. I don't think it was the cops' fault at all, how could they know? But I don't think you can just say it's as simple as he's stupid, should've known better and is completely to blame either.

        2. Repairguy47 profile image60
          Repairguy47posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Would you have made allowances for the Columbine killers? The Red Lake High School massacre? Kids take real guns to school and kill people and now we're supposed to shoot them with rubber bullets? This kid could have and should have put his weapon down when told to, he didn't and now he's dead. That was his fault not the police.

    2. Evan G Rogers profile image83
      Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      A violent 15 year old brought a gun to school and I'm supposed to grieve his idiocy?

      No.

    3. Cagsil profile image60
      Cagsilposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You know I have stayed away from this thread, simply because it was you who started it and I half expected that your title of the thread would be skewed to distort.

      Now that I have decided to engage in this thread to point out that your title to this thread is nothing but distortion. The police do not have a death type policy. If there is a perceived threat, they have all the right in the world to defend themselves.

      The fact that police are trained to be excellent shots at firing their weapons, is no fault of their own. If there are three officers on hand, and facing someone who has a weapon, such as a gun. Do you think only one officer is going to fire their weapon? If you do, then you are not clearly thinking straight.

      And I would agree with others who have said- this kid knew the consequences of holding a weapon to up police and also that every situation is different for police officers.

      But, under no circumstances are police operating under some sort of death by policy. It's you who has distorted the events that have occurred, which is something you do quite often.

    4. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Span, I share your grief for the young man who was killed. I would venture a guess that our remorse does not measure up to that felt by the police officers that fired the fatal bullets. It was truly a sad event.

      At the time, the police officers had to choose between their duty to protect this young man’s life and their duty to protect the lives of hundreds of other students and teachers in the building. Their decision, however tragic the outcome, was justified by the circumstances and not by policy. Both the lad and the police officers come away having to pay a price for the young man’s actions.

      I hope you are able to manage the anger and remorse triggered by this event. You are not alone.

    5. emrldphx profile image60
      emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The real question, SpanStar, is why in the world you would put police in the wrong in this situation? You can't look at it from hindsight knowing that it was a pellet gun. You have to look at it from the situation as it played out. Police confront the boy, he pulls a gun and points it at police officers. At this point they have two options: Shoot, or don't shoot.

      Option 1 involves stopping a deadly threat.
      Option 2 involves allowing the deadly threat to potentially kill an innocent person.

      In the police's situation, it was a deadly threat. You can't fault them because it was a fake gun, they had to act according to their knowledge at the time. If something looks like a gun and is being pointed at a human being, that person should be stopped.

      You can't use pepper spray against a gun. That's ridiculous. Rubber bullets don't work reliably either, I could find plenty of stories where cops were killed because all they had were rubber bullets, small buckshot in a shotgun, or some other under-powered round. You can't use tear gas against someone pointing a gun at you. So, you haven't provided a single viable solution.

      Your responses typically deflect any problems and change subject to other things, but you seem to think that this situation gives weight to your ideas. It doesn't.

    6. uncorrectedvision profile image60
      uncorrectedvisionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      "the kid in the corridor pulled out this pellet gun which look like a real gun."

      If it looks like a real gun and is pointed at you - it is a real gun.  It is irrational and self destructive to assume that it is not real.  That police officer has one duty - survive each day intact and whole.  His duty is not to take a bullet.

      ---It was also stated that the child was warned by the police regarding putting down the weapon but once the child pointed be pellet gun to towards the police officers three real bullets headed in his direction with two of them hitting him.

      I am surprised they only shot three times.  That is poor training.  When confronted with an armed person who refuses to comply it is most prudent to fire your weapon until that person is fully neutralized as a threat - first to you and then to others around you.

      ---life-saving gear.

      "Bullet proof" vests increase the chances of, but do not guarantee, survival in a gun fight.  The vests do not cover the femoral artery, under the arm or the head.  An errant shot kills as surely as an aimed one.  The vest is an emergency counter measure not a certainty.

      ---Any parent knows that children can be difficult

      A difficult child is one who refuses to pick up his room or do his home work or is making poor grades.  A troubled family is one that produces a child angry enough to assault class mates and carry a gun, even a pellet gun, to school.

      ---one untrained 15-year-old against at least three police officers?

      It isn't the untrained 15 year old, it is the gun in his hand.  Bullets do not know who is and who is not trained.  Were you looking for a "fair fight?"  That is a 15 year old's perception of reality.

      The police usually do the right thing.  This is not guaranteed, police are human not angels.  In this case they did the right thing.  The student with the pellet gun did the wrong, and tragically STUPID, thing.  Stupidity frequently results in death.

  2. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    The police had no way of knowing it was not a real gun.  I don't see any police at work other than the policy of not letting someone wander around a school with a gun. Sad, but not deliberate.

  3. AEvans profile image71
    AEvansposted 5 years ago

    There are many 15-year olds who are going on 30. Sadly he should not have ever pointed the gun at police officers. They warned him and he still chose to go against the warning. Tragically his life is gone because he did not listen. Discipline, love, respect and understanding also begin at home; therefore I also fault the parent/parents.

  4. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    I think the facts come from what the police could know in the moment.  If they had known it was a pellet gun, I'm sure they would not have shot him.

  5. Jeff Berndt profile image91
    Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago

    Yes, we do make allowances for children. If the kid hadn't been killed, he probably would have ended up in counseling instead of adult prison, and rightly so.

    The problem is, the cops saw a kid holding what looked like a gun. If you've ever seen a pellet gun, you'll know that from a distance they look just like the kind of guns that shoot bullets. A pellet gun looks a lot more like a real gun than does, say, a wallet. The cops saw a kid who looked as though he was able to, and intended to, kill someone.

    They made the correct call. Even if the kid had been holding a real gun, the cop isn't going to have an easy time getting over what he did. The fact that the kid was holding a pellet gun is just going to make it harder on the officer.

    I have to wonder--what was going on in this kid's life? Was he deliberately trying to get himself killed? Was he suicidal, but didn't have the nerve to end his own life, so he tricked a cop into doing it for him?

    The whole situation is sad, but I can't find it in me to blame the cops.

    By the way, I also have to wonder--what were the cops doing in the halls of that school? Is a police presence in the halls a regular thing there?

    1. Evan G Rogers profile image83
      Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      They made the right call. If I were in that situation, he would've been shot.

  6. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    Do I accept the policy of shooting a gun man wandering around a high school and pointing his gun at people?

    Yes, it seems pretty much like a good policy?  What would you suggest.  They get to shoot one or two people first just to make sure they 'mean it'?

    They thought it was a real gun. Assuming they did it because they just like to murder kids is, IMHO,  pretty sick.

  7. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    It's just not getting through to you Jesus isnt happy,

      The 15-year, you from what I can see can't remember what it was like to be 15 years old. Kids do things without thinking, I don't have a full grasp of how society works.

    This kid had a pellet gun not a real gun like all the grown adult police officers and their training had to deal with a kid who may be mad at someone, or just want to cause problems-and that is worth taking his life for?

    1. profile image59
      Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I know that when I was 15 I wasn't stupid enough to point a gun at anyone.

      The point that you seem to be ignoring is THEY DIDNT KNOW IT WAS A PELLET GUN.

      If you and a 15 year old where both alone in the desert and you both had a gun each and the 15 year old pointed his at you, you are telling me that you wouldnt try to shoot him first?

      I dont believe you. What you are asking of the police is ridiculous and would put the safety of the officer and the other student in jeopardy.

    2. Evan G Rogers profile image83
      Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I don't really care if Jesus is happy! He made that kid and he b...

      ... oh...

      ... that's someone's avatar name?

      ... really?

  8. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    You still can't get past the child was not carrying a lethal weapon. You're constantly putting a lethal weapon into the hands of someone who doesn't have one. Based on your point of view whenever the police officers approach anyone and everyone is OK for him to ASSUME their lives are being threatened so that they are  authorized to kill STRICTLY BASED ON ASSUMPTION!

    1. profile image59
      Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      What do you mean I cant get past it? If something looks like a gun and is being used like a gun, then it is natural to assume that it is a gun.

      The simple fact that it is a life and death situation means that one cannot afford to take risks.

      I dont agree with you at all. Your argument is not in the slightest bit logical, in fact it is based on the officer being supposed to know ahead of time what the kid is holding.

      I dont agree with you, noone else on this thread agreed with you. I suggest you go in search of someone that agrees with you and if you dont find one, then maybe you should take heed from that.

      If noone agrees with your logic, then it isn't logical.

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Let's hope you are never in a situation where through erroneous information you are perceived by the police as a threat and let us also hope that your car keys are not perceived as a lethal weapon because based on your statement they would be authorized to use deadly force.

        1. profile image59
          Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Why on earth would I point my car keys at a policeman and not follow his instructions if he had a gun pointed at me?

          The kid was either suicidal or he was a blithering idiot. Get over it.

          1. SpanStar profile image60
            SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            If the police and spent just a little time finding out more about the situation the the kid would be alive to tell us why he did what he did now wouldn't he,

            This idea that the poice can do no wrong is going to shock you if you should encounter the right ones

            1. profile image59
              Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You havent listened to a word anyone has said. If someone pnted a gun at them I would shoot and SO WOULD YOU.

              Go and find someone that agrees with you. You might learn something when you realise you are talking rubbish.

              1. SpanStar profile image60
                SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I am not looking for you to agree with me-I concluded after your first statement that we were not on the same thinking level. I could care less if you agree with me.

                This tendency to make assumptions is seem to be pervasive in your conversation find it necessary to think for yourself and to think of me. Understand this everybody does not think the same and simply because you perceive them to certain way does not make it so.

                1. profile image59
                  Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  When you are the only one who thinks something and noone agrees with you then you should look in to the reasons for that.

                  You didnt present any logic. All you seem to be doing is taking someones side because of some other reason. Maybe you dont like cops?

                  If you could actually provide some logic with your argument then you may have a worthwhile discussion but since you cant provide any logical reason as to why an officer should not shoot when someone is pointing a gun at them and ignoring their commands then your opinion is just that, an opinion and I give it no value.

                  1. SpanStar profile image60
                    SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    If you can't see the logic in my statements then you're not going to see anything I say.

                    Because my friend to me you are the are the one lacking the logic.

  9. barryrutherford profile image30
    barryrutherfordposted 5 years ago

    No wonder the kid had a gun the culture you have over there promotes gun ownership  and possession.  This is the real issue! I have written a hub on the cost of gun deaths in America. But somehow you manage to ignore it year in year out!

    1. Evan G Rogers profile image83
      Evan G Rogersposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      HAHAHAHahahahahahHAHahhaHAHAHahh!!!

      Oh yeah, DAWG!! We REAL gangstah over heah!!!

      Shiiiiii!!!!

      I taught in an inner city school with REAL gangs, REAL drug dealers, and REAL illegal-arms sellers. Not a single kid was dumb enough to bring a gun to school.

      Gangs know who the REAL gang leader is: the government.

    2. Quilligrapher profile image90
      Quilligrapherposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Barry. It is nice to chat with you again.

      I have lived in the US over 70 years and I never owned a gun. That doesn’t make me an expert on any subject but it does suggest I know a few things about America. You’re not surprised the young man had a gun. Well, neither am I. However, you are wrong to say the culture we have over here promotes ownership and possession of firearms; but it does allow it. This is a big difference and one that might seem quite small from a distance. As a nation, we respect a citizen’s right to own firearms. Along with that right comes an extraordinary burden of personal responsibility and we are unwilling to deprive all because of the irresponsible few.

      I have read and commented about your hub on the cost of gun deaths in America. I hope you will also write about the cost of motor vehicle traffic and poisoning deaths in America since both are significantly more costly.

      I hope the winds down under are blowing in your favor. Have a great fall and winter.

  10. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    Jesus isnt happy,

    Obviously you can't get over yourself and your presumptions. You erroneously deliberately believe everything that comes out of your mouth is gospel-I have a surprised for you IT IS NOT!

    Your assumptions are nothing but opinions they do not provide any logical basis but rather a bias for some ideology that you manifest as true when in fact your reasoning is little more than justification for doing nothing.

    When it comes to the police they is supposed to be working for the public not against it-a concept which I'm sure you will never get.

    1. mom101 profile image61
      mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      This is indeed a bad situation.

      Like barry said above the society in which we have become is not one of peace and harmony or of love and compassion. Not even slight care for the most part.

      Schools are not what they used to be by any means. My son just finished high school. He is a big guy. 6 ft 325-350 lbs.  Has a heart as soft as a sponge. Would not hurt a fly, can't stand it if he thinks anyone is upset with him. But even as big as this kid is, you would think he would not have been bullied. WRONG!!!!!!!

      Yes, there is an officer on the premise of school during the entire day. My guess is that he aint there to direct traffic jams in the hallways.

      When I was in the 6th grade, I still played barbies. And I loved it.

      This is a different world in which we grew up. Kids today are acting out adult ways way much earlier and with much more violence. It is heartbreaking.

      Why did this child feel the need to carry a gun? Was he being bullied? Did he feel the need to defend? My guess is that this is very likely. If the child was of a mean nature, my opinion is he more than likely would have had a true gun or a knife. 

      Yes, there are many what ifs that can be asked. And just as many answers. 

      The issue here that needs to be addressed, and not just at this school, is what is causing the violence. What makes these children feel the need to come to school armed.

      The fault of the parents? Not necessarily. Societies fault? More likely.

      How bad is bullying? Let's ask this question a different way.
      If a person goes up to a dog and pets it day in and day out, gives it water, food and a pat on the head the dog will likely give in return a gentle kind reaction. If you take the same dog the same person but the person goes up to the dog and kicks it day in and day out, in time, that dog will turn on that person. 
      People are no different. They take as much as they can take. Then they snap. It is human nature.

      this is a sad thing that happened. not as devastating as columbine, but just as sad.
      Instead of arguing over the what ifs, let's work together to solve the what ifs.

      The parents of that child I am certain are in serious pain. The children at school that had to witness the event, I feel for them as well. they will remember that for life. The policeman that fired the shot, he too, without a doubt is in grief. 

      It is time we start pulling together.

      1. mom101 profile image61
        mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        P.s.  when I was in the 7th grade, we had knives in our pockets everyday. Legally.

        On lunch break, we would stand outside and whittle.  Seems to me like I can also remember pistol trading as well..

    2. profile image59
      Jesus isnt happyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I explained the logic in all of my claims. I also weighed up the risks for each of our claims.

      You did no such thing. You have not presented any logic. Your "opinion" as to what the police should do puts innocent people at risk.

      You also never explained what would happen should the gun be real and the officers get shot and killed leaving the school kids completely unprotected.

      You also never explained how you would act if someone was pointing a gun at your face.

      And yes, kids do hit eachother. That is not a problem. The problem is that his kid pointed a gun at an armed police officer and did not follow his commands. It is very straightforward, if you do that you get shot. Every 15 year old in the country knows that.

      Oh wait, I just saw all your other hubs about how bad the police are.

      That would explain it. Your argument is not based on logic. It is based on a biased hate for the police.

      Unless you can explain your argument, but I have requested this many times and you have not.

      Putting yourself and untold amounts of people at risk from being murdered in order to save the life of a possible killer is not logical no matter how much you claim that it is.

  11. Charles James profile image84
    Charles Jamesposted 5 years ago

    Yes it is terribly sad.

    If anyone has been told to put his gun down and then raises it and points it at police, what do you expect the police to do?

    Had they known it was a pellet gun they might have taken a risk of letting the kid get off the first shot. They did not know it was a pellet gun -they thought it was a real gun. After being warned he raised it to aim at them - so they shot him first.

    The right to bear arms may apply to 15 year old boys - so does the duty not to be stupid while carrying a weapon or weapon replica.

  12. Cassie Smith profile image75
    Cassie Smithposted 5 years ago

    It is upsetting when a 15 year old is killed, however, the police were probably thinking of a Columbine situation.  Those were two kids also but they were murderous.  A cop gets a report that a kid is going around with a gun in school, he doesn't know it's a pellet gun, he's preparing for the worst not the least.  Ever since Columbine, I don't think cops have looked at high school kids in the same way ever again.

  13. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    I agree life today has changed from times gone by. As I look around in life it seems that our lives are ruled by crooks, thugs and all the other unsavory elements in our society. Burglar alarms on our homes, cars and in some cases on a person. Surveillance cameras here, there everywhere.

    Does this now mean we have given up all hope in giving people the benefit of the doubt? Now I'm not saying one has to let down the defenses all the time but I am wondering what kind of environment have we created for ourselves? If we see someone stumbling down the side of the road maybe even covered in blood we can Assume this is a trap and simply drive right past her. We can ignore people who are asking us for directions or advice because in online we can assume they are out to get us.

    Society may change but people do not. I can remember a number of instances where children do dumb things for example father gets a new gun the kid takes it to school to show it off. Kids get into arguments before they became lethal but after giving the kid or kids time to cool off that situation resolved itself.

    It just seems to me we don't make enough of an effort to work towards saving a life when we are focused on assuming all people are bad and adopting a philosophy death is the best method-I absolutely do not believe that it is the best method. Taking someone's life, anyone's life based on an assumption is not justifiable reasons where I see it.

    1. Cassie Smith profile image75
      Cassie Smithposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Your post reminds me of the Good Samaritan.  I think it's always been that way.  However, in this case the comparison is not apt.  A 15-year-old should not have assaulted another kid and wave around a gun, even though it was a pellet gun.  He is old enough to know better.  We can also ask why didn't his family find out what was bothering him.  Kids don't hit other kids for no reason.  There's a lot more to this than just the police shooting an armed kid.

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I can appreciate your point of view Cassie.  Unfortunately kids do hit each other and their reason/s can be as simple as seeing what you're going to do about it, like I mention in another article the courts in this country recognbize kilds need to be treated different then adults.  We worry about teenagers with their first driver's licenses why because we know they are most likely to do something dump.

      2. mom101 profile image61
        mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        cassie,

        kids do hit other kids for no reason. well, maybe you are are correct. The one doing the hitting has a reason. Sometimes it is merely that the targeted kid is different in some way, or as simply as an easy target. One that would make a good example to the other kids of what could happen to them if they do not comply.

        Sometimes a kid who is being bullied is also being threatened that if they tell anyone harm could come to their family members. Therefore, many kids do not tell anyone until it is too late.

        Cassie, one problem we have is that there are many laws. Many laws. Of those many laws, how many are actually for the benefit of the person in the right? If and when the targeted kid does find the courage to speak out, there goes half his rights.

        I am a parent of an only child. I myself grew up an only child. I was slightly overweight, I wasn't a partier and therefore not in the "in crowd", and I was made fun of each and every day. Today, if one does not dress "in" or comply to "in" he/she is made fun of or worse. Bullying is a HUGE issue and it needs to be met with HUGE discipline.

        More often than we should, we hear of news involving a school. It aint getting any better.

        1. SpanStar profile image60
          SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          mom101,

             I have to say I'm impressed with your comments in that it sounds to me like you get it.  Yes, the kid was in the wrong but for kids their could be all kinds of reasons why they're acting that way and to law down the law by saying we kill even if we can't prove you're theaten, we big old adults are afraid you're going to hurt us with that pellet gun.

          I was wondering if the police is called out to a home and when they arrive 2 8 year old and 9 year old kids in the their cowboy outfits are shooting their guns at each other does the police pull out their guns and kill both these kids because they assume the guns were real?

          1. mom101 profile image61
            mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Span

            This is a painful topic. Writing about it hurts. No where near as much as the pain the parents of the child who was shot I am sure.

            Real or pellet, is not the issue though Span. Why did this child feel the need to have to carry a weapon to school? Here is my take: I do not know this child, or how his behavior was at school. I do not know anything period about him.  But in my thinking, if he were a "bad a" more than likely he would have had a real gun, IF he were trying to make a statement, I feel he more than likely would have taken hostages.

            Span, I feel your pain for this incidence. It is good to talk about what is bothering you, but, be careful to not let the anger of the situation consume you.

            In my personal opinion, there are many things that could have been done to prevent this from happening. LONG before the gun was in the childs hand.

            That is where the attention needs to be focused.

            I am afraid, we, as a people, are going to have to learn to get along with each other for the way things are looking we are all we are going to have.

        2. Cassie Smith profile image75
          Cassie Smithposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hi mom101, I don't know if the kid waving the gun was the one being bullied or the bully. That is the difficulty for the cop. He has to make the decision at that moment with minimum info, and based on current procedures he made the call and his superiors support him on it. Should the procedures be reviewed? In light of what? Should the police make the arbitrary decision that the situation will not be like Columbine?

          I don' t know what the circumstances are. Perhaps info will come out that will cause the cops to review school situations but parents and teachers should not have allowed things to reach this pass.

          1. mom101 profile image61
            mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            exactly the point.

  14. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    Bad outcomes don't mean bad intentions or bad policies.  There is no way to be right all the time in these life-threatening situations.  But I would agree with erring on the side of taking out the guy with the gun, and not letting him shoot anyone.

  15. Reality Bytes profile image94
    Reality Bytesposted 5 years ago

    15 year olds shoot people in my neighborhood pretty regularly.  The Police had no other option.  The 15 year old should have dropped the gun.  Pointing it at the Police is ....well....suicide!

  16. maxoxam41 profile image78
    maxoxam41posted 5 years ago

    Cops are against us. They spray, tease, kill with impunity. I don't trust them.

    1. mom101 profile image61
      mom101posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I am sorry to hear of your distrust. They too are people who have the right to protect themselves while protecting us.

      Are there those that misuse their authority?

  17. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 5 years ago

    "Gonzalez walked into a classroom and slugged another boy in the face for no apparent reason. The teen then pulled out the weapon, prompting terrified teachers to lock their classroom doors while students cowered under desks. Cops arrived about 20 minutes after school officials called 911 and found Gonzalez in a hallway clutching the black gun, police said."

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/c … z1icl8myKG

    It seem to me that police followed the common policy to killed armed persons that are an immediate threat. The pistol looked like a glock. The teachers thought it was a gun.

    Changing that policy would shift the risk of death from the person with the weapon, to bystanders and/or the police.  So fewer dumb kids with pellet guns get killed, and more dumb kids just wandering around their school get shot by their peers who do have real guns.

    1. SpanStar profile image60
      SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I took this out of the link I provided.

        Gonzalez did not threaten students or teachers, and no one else was hurt.

      Like I've been saying kids do dumb things The Question Is Do They Desire To Died For Doing Dumb Thing??

      If That be so then shouldn't all adults suffer the same faith?  Running a Red Light, Not stopping at a stop sign means the police don't know who we are behind the will so to protect themselves they should unload on the vehicle/s because we did a dumb thing..

      1. Uninvited Writer profile image82
        Uninvited Writerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        If you are pointing a gun at an officer while running a stop sign then maybe your argument works.

        Last year in Canada a 15 year old killed a police officer by dragging him after the car he wa driving was stopped. 15 is not some magical age of childhood.

        1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
          ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          As an ex police officer myself, I can tell you that officers are faced with many challenges everyday they go to work. Your biggest decision of the day at your work might be what color pen to use. A cop has to make life and death decisions, quickly and accurately every single day. Their decisions are the deciding factors if they get to go back home to their families or not.

          The officers had to decide within seconds if that gun was real or not and make a split second decision for the safety of not only themselves but everyone else at that school.  Didn't exactly have the luxury of taking a time out to see the gun up close, this isn't the movies or a video game dude, things don't happen that way. BTW, my girlfriends son is 16 and knows damn well that you don't point anything that looks even remotely like a weapon at an officer unless you want to get shot!

          1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
            ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            One last thing, I bet you are anti police aren't you? I am thinking so or you would understand the concept more. I am guessing a cop gave you some crap one day and now you don't like cops period hence why you think what the cops did was wrong. Sorry, just had to throw that in their. cheers.

      2. profile image61
        Shiny new accountposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I took this out of the link YOU provided;

        "Gina Rangel was in her first-period class in the gym when the school was locked down. She said friends who were closer to the confrontation heard the boy threaten to kill everyone. "

  18. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    Bssically what I'm hearing is we don't need any proof or evidence as whether or not you are a threat-ALL WE NEED IS FOR ME TO PRECIEVE YOU'RE THREAT AND THAT GIVE ME LICENSES TO KILL-IS THAT RIGHT?

    Welcome Back To Days Of The Wild, Wild West.

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image82
      Uninvited Writerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No, we are saying that if you aim what looks like a gun at a police officer you run the risk of getting shot. I don't understand why you keep ignoring that.

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I'm ignoring it as you put it because people are dying froim nothing more then someone's suspections.  Oh I thought he had a gun-oh well let's go get a burger.

        I didn't know the 6 year old had a toy gun-oh well that's the way it goes-these aren't justice kills no matter what you people are trying to say.

        1. Uninvited Writer profile image82
          Uninvited Writerposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Well, maybe youd rather a cop be killed.

          I agree that there have been times when unarmed people have been shot or beaten by police... Just because someone felt threatened. But, if you threaten a cop with what looks like a real gun or a knife, the odds are you will be shot.

    2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
      ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Span, you are joking right? Seriously, it's not rocket science. If I pointed a gun in your face right now and it appears to be real. This means at any given time I could shoot you in the face but look, you too have a gun. You are not sure if my gun is real but instead of finding out  by getting shot in the face and potentially dying, you  would probably protect yourself in the off chance that it's real wouldn't you? Either you are like 10 years old or writing this hub to piss everyone off or just simple minded. wow!

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        ShawnB2011 No I'm not joking- you are allowing other people to take your children and relatives out not because of any proof that they have but because from where I'm sitting they are scare and I'm talking about some police officers.  So based on their fear if some flashes past there eyes the assume it's a weapon they don't know it's not a weapon but because they think it's a weapon good bye families.

        1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
          ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          But, what if they were wrong in assuming it was a toy but turned out to be real ? Good by police officers families, good by other students families, good by teachers families. One life had to be taken for the sake of potentially more in case that gun was real.

      2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
        ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I could see your point if let's say it was OBVIOUS it was a toy but in this case there were probably no markings, words, or anything else that made it look like a toy. If it looked like a Super Soaker water gun then yes, you and everyone else would be pissed. BUT no, This gun looked like a 9mm  for crying out loud.

        1. SpanStar profile image60
          SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I'm saying don't look at one thing and automatically believe that must be it.  How many times in life do we do that believing something is this when in fact it was that.  Ok the KID-(not an adult) has a gun because he's a kid maybe the gun he has is a not-kids and gun toys isn't uncommon.  Rather killig this kid over a mistake, why not used rubber bullets on him-at least would still be alive.

          1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
            ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Rubber bullets are no match to potentially real bullets flying at you genius.

        2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
          ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          And it wasn't just something as you put it, not like he waved a bottle of shampoo at the officers, it was what appeared to be a gun muzzle being pointed at them. Oh thats right, you want him to shoot first THEN kill him right? You are probably a criminal or a brick wall that knows how to type. lol. unbelievable. Never been so dumbfounded in my life than right this instance!

          1. SpanStar profile image60
            SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Your Desire to kills children doesn't help your image very much either.

          2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
            ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            You didn't answer my question either, If I was pointing what looks to be a real gun in your face, would you protect yourself if you had a gun or just find out if mine was real or not after I shot you dead?

            1. SpanStar profile image60
              SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              The first thing I'm going to do is take shelter then I'll find out if I'm dealing with a real gun.

              1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                What if you had nowhere to hide and it was either shoot or get shot?

                1. SpanStar profile image60
                  SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Let's and one more element to your senario-let's say offspring was troubled and you were facing off on your offspring-what would you do?

                  1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                    ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    That's not even close to the scenario at hand. A kid with a potential real gun who if it was real, could have shot multiple students, teachers, cops. Wasn't a sibling rivalry. It boggles me that you would probably chalk the Columbine incident as "eh... kids will be kids" attitude. They were just as old and look how much damage they did. I can't believe I am even having this conversation.

              2. wilderness profile image94
                wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Absolutely.  Open the door and enter the nearest room, while hoping it isn't a classroom with 30 frightened children in it, and that if it is that the shooter in the hallway doesn't follow you in.  Or head elsewhere looking for victims before you decide to come back out and take him.

                Maybe you could shout back into the hall to trigger one off, just to prove the gun is real.  After all, shooting blind, he'll probably miss hitting any of the students.

                Good thinking.

  19. recommend1 profile image70
    recommend1posted 5 years ago

    Most of these responses seem to miss the issue.  What kind of society has to have armed police in the schools, has such little respect for the lives of the kid and the men involved, and has police who apparently think it is acceptable to open fire as a first line of action.  The kid is the victim (a stupid victim maybe) and the police involved seem to be gutless.

    1. SpanStar profile image60
      SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Recommend1,

         Outstanding-you do see clearly

    2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
      ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Sucks but that's America.  You can move to China where police don't have guns if that's what you desire. Lol

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        And you can elevate life in society by not simply going along with the program just because someone says it's right.

        1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
          ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          You can live longer if you protect yourself from being shot as well. lol

      2. recommend1 profile image70
        recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Nice to see that your aggressive macho 'kill any kid that moves attitude' spills over into your forum posting. 

        Such lack of politeness and consideration with lots of mouthing off and empty shouting, are the same conditions that would have turned that incident from an angry kid with a pop gun into a killing.   The problem with the society is that such attitudes are not restrained by that society in the lower layers of humanity who live with anger and aggression, but that it is seen as acceptable behaviour for the officers who are supposed to control them.

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No, dude. It's not a "Kill any kid that moves" attitude.

          It's an "If a kid has a gun, and aims it at a cop, that cop is justified if he shoots the kid" attitude.

          If the kid hadn't been armed, or if the kid had been holding, say, a cell phone or a wallet (neither of which look like a gun, but both of which have prompted other cops to shoot other people), I'd be right there with you.

          But the kid had a gun in his hand and aimed it at the cop. The cop was within his rights to shoot the kid. He made the right call.

          1. recommend1 profile image70
            recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The post was a response to the attitude of the immature poster I was replying to.  The police appear to have made a bad call, mishandled the situation and killed a kid.  Attitude has everything to do with it, and bad attitude leads to bad decisions.  Without knowing the full deal I would strongly suspect that these school cops are the lowest ranking and intelligence in their pack or they would be out doing a real job.  Gutless responses to dangerous situations seem to be the norm lately, rather than brave decisive actions that save lives and win total respect for the service.  Maybe I am persuaded in this direction from the videos of the recent protest footage where fat arrogant bullies in uniform pepper sprayed peaceful protestors, aggressively attacked groups of young people and shot tear gas grenades directly into crowds.

            1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
              Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I can understand your feelings, given the recent terrible behavior of some cops caught on video, but it's important to remember that not all cops are trigger happy bullies. Also, the cops you're talking about were acting against unarmed people while the cop in this story was dealing with a kid who had a pistol in his hand, and was aiming at the cop.

              The cop had no way of knowing if the kid was holding a "real" pistol or not (and a pellet gun can hurt or kill someone if it hits them just right--or just wrong, depending), no way of knowing if the gun was loaded or not, or any of the stuff that we know in hindsight.

              The kid pointed a gun at the cop; the cop shot him. It's tragic. I wish it had gone another way, with nobody ending up shot, nobody ending up dead.

              But I can't find it in me to blame this cop. In his position, knowing what he knew, I'd probably have done the same.

    3. profile image0
      Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Come on, R1, do you really believe the kid is the victim? If he is, it's of his own stupidity. Nothing more. Nothing less.

  20. wilderness profile image94
    wildernessposted 5 years ago

    Consider:

    Not all that long ago a 15 year old male was a man in his own right.  Responsible for feeding his family, building his home and raising his children.  It is still common in much of the world.

    Tens of thousands of 15 year old "children" kill each year.  It's called hunting for food.

    THIS 15 year old has ignored instructions to lower his weapon and instead aimed at the police.


    Now.  As the policeman in that school hallway, facing a loaded gun aimed at you, will you drop your own weapon and charge down the hall (almost certainly causing the boy to shoot) until you get close enough to pepper spray him?  Hoping that you get hit in the chest instead of the face?

    Or will you yank out the rubber bullets (you don't have), unload and reload your gun, and shoot him with those?  All before he shoots you?  Or have you entered a school building filled with children, and one killer, with rubber bullets in your gun?

    Or will you tase him (from too far away for the taser to work)?

    Or will you run away and hide, hoping the boy will THEN drop his gun? 

    Will you try to talk him down, hopefully before another student enters the hallway and gets killed?  And before he pulls the trigger, shoots you in the face and deprives your children of their father?

    When that gun comes up and you suddenly see death staring at you will you instantly ignore your training and shoot for a (much harder to hit) kneecap?

    What would YOU have done?

    Were I a cop, I know what my decision would have been.  Just the same as theirs.

    You have repeatedly made the point that it was a toy gun.  No, it wasn't.  At that moment, at that time, it was a deadly weapon threatening not only the lives of the cops but anyone else that might happen upon the scene.  And it was in the hands of an unstable, irrational person that was plainly capable of using it.

    1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
      ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Amen to that!

  21. profile image0
    Longhunterposted 5 years ago

    Hmmmm, lets see. 15-year old kid has a gun. It looks like the real thing. From the photo I saw, it could have been a Glock 1911. He walks into his school brandishing the gun and punches a kid in the nose then, when the police show up, we refuses several orders to put down the weapon. It's my understanding he then pointed the gun at the officers to which they opened fire.

    The cops are now dealing with the thoughts and mental images of their bullets taking down a 15-year old kid they thought was going to shoot them with a much more powerful gun than he actually had.

    The 15-year old kid suffered the consequences of his own actions, something very few kids have to do now days because of parents who don't raise their kids properly.

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
      Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      No, as I understand it, he punched the other kid in the nose before pulling the gun. But every other thing you said I totally agree with.

      I feel bad for the kid, 'cos he did an incredibly foolish thing at 15, and now he's dead. I feel bad for the cop, because now he's the guy who shot a kid, however justified the cop's action was.

      I'd rather the cop had used a taser (if he even had one), but I'm always in favor of people not being killed when possible.

      The cops are not to blame.

      1. profile image0
        Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with the taser use but were they within range to use one?

        What it boils down to is the kid made several very stupid mistakes that day and he paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. He'll now star in those officers' nightmares for sometime to come but they did the right thing.

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image91
          Jeff Berndtposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Don't know, the article didn't say if they were close enough for a taser, or even if they had one.

          The cop absolutely did the right thing, but that won't make it any easier for him to deal with the fact that at the end of the day, he killed someone.

  22. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    I wonder just how justified people would feel about the police killing that kid if that kid was their sister, brother grandmother.

    Do we go up to these cops and say, "Hey it was my grandmother but righteous kill nice going."\

    1. profile image0
      Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The fact remains, SpanStar, the kid was told to drop the gun. It's my understanding he instead decided to point it at the officers thus suffering the consequences of his own actions. Is it unfortunate? By all means, yes. But it was the kid that was wrong, not the police.

      It's just the impression I get but perhaps it's you that's letting your own hatred of the police cloud your judgment, thus wanting to place blame on the police rather than where it belongs.

      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Please people stop telling me what I'm thinking-You're acting like these police officers, you don't have any facts, you're jumping to conclusions.  I don't hat the police-I do unlike a lot of people apparrently don't believe everything they do is right and good.  Good people in the past reported they trusted the police blindly until one day they had to deal with and that attitude changed.  People can accept whatever foolish they want to believe about these fine up-standing police but when youy have an agency afraid to reveal the truth about what really goes on in it's ranks then people you are lying to yourselves about who police really are.

        1. profile image0
          Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Where's your evidence of wrong doing?

          1. SpanStar profile image60
            SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Pick a webbrowser and look up video of Police Brutality you'll See Lots of Videos.

            Here's something-When I was living in California I think they made it into  a law but I'm not sure.  They decided that if they the police have to chase after you then you will be prosecuted based on that chase.  Example if you have drugs and if the police chasing you hits a person you will charged for that, if a police wrongly shoots a person you'll charged with murder along with those drugs.

            How many of us want those charges for running a stop sign?

            1. profile image0
              Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              My advise - pay attention and don't run stop signs.

              Am I wrong or are you not a big believer in suffering the consequences of your own actions?

              Are all your problems caused by others, never yourself?

      2. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Spanstar is obviously not interested in facts but instead wishes to propagate conspiracy theories...

        "...you have an agency afraid to reveal the truth about what really goes on in it's ranks..."

        1. SpanStar profile image60
          SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I thought your interest was in harassing Christains and didn't realize you had branched out.

          1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
            ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Asking questions isn't harassment.

        2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
          ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If my grandma, sister or brother pointed a gun at police and got shot because of it, well the same applies.....They would have deserved it yes! Luckily they aren't as dumb as you or that kid so i wont have to worry about it.

          1. SpanStar profile image60
            SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            My advice to you is get some mental counselling, seriously I believe you need it.

            1. profile image0
              Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              How is it that Shawn needs counseling? Not that he needs me to defend him but I don't read where he's blaming others for this kid's actions.

              1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks long. One vote for you span.

              2. SpanStar profile image60
                SpanStarposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Someone who doesn't care if their family member is murdered base purely on procedure when in glare of reality is false-that to me is someone that needs help and soon.

                1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                  ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh I would care don't get me wrong but I have a grip on reality unlike someone here cough cough Span cough.

                2. profile image0
                  Longhunterposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  A person holding a gun, that's been ordered to put down, refuses, then is shot by police when he points said gun at them is not a murder victim but rather a the idiot that suffers the consequences of his own actions.

                  What would you have had the police do, Span, stand there and get shot? You would have liked that, I'm sure.

                  1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                    ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh no hunter, not get shot but politely ask the kid for a time out so that they could walk up to the kid and thoroughly inspect the gun first. THEN resume the standoff! lol. He doesn't get it hunter, his big thing is that the gun was fake therefore shouldn't have been shot even though the cops thought it was real. He would rather the cops potentially get shot than the kid. Total hatred for cops but he won't admit it. We are talking to brick wall here. obviously. lol

          2. ShawnB2011 profile image62
            ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            At this point I think Span is just looking for the shock value from others by what he says.   Done with this hub. Cheers.

            1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
              ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Me? How about we take a vote and see who REALLY needs it! As tragic as it would be, the police would be justified in shooting if they raised a gun at them. You are out there man. Wow.

              1. ShawnB2011 profile image62
                ShawnB2011posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Longhunter, he doesn't answer questions very well. A.d.d. big time lol.

  23. pstraubie48 profile image89
    pstraubie48posted 5 years ago

    so the police didn't shoot ....let's just say that for argument sake. And your sister, brother, cousin, girl friend, happened on the scene and the kid with the 'gun' shot her. and it was a REAL gun after all....
    it is too late to armchair it after someone is hurt or near death or dead....
    i do not blindly trust ALL police officers or ALL of any agency or group. That would not be wise.
    however i hope that the officer that comes to scene when a gun is being wielded around my grandsons will err on the side of caution.
    When I was teaching 8th grade in the eighties, a young man i taught got off the bus with a gun. mercifully he was spotted with it before anyone was hurt or injured. his was a real gun.
    as far as the bullying issue that is an excuse for taking matters into ones own hands, i don't buy it. there have always been bullies...always will be...it isn't new...and it isn't the schools fault...we all share ownership in it if we do not counsel our own children so their self confidence will exceed a bully's words. Physical bullying is another story and needs to be dealt with swiftly.
    as far as examples of police officers being overly forceful, i have seen them. it isn't all of them, not the majority. the majority get up every day, put on their clothes, and head out, sometimes for the last times. and they are not living in mansions, most of them. their lives are on the line for us 24/7. they will make mistakes. we all do. it is sad and unfortunate that a child was not counseled about not taking a weapon to the school arena. we teach kids at 4 years old that bringing weapons to school is NOT ALLOWED. an older child KNOWS consequences of such behavior. it spells trouble. why would you take a gun or other weapon to school unless you had sinister motives????
    hard questions, no easy answers.....

  24. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    Jeff Berndt,

       You're a bright person and I respect your point of view still I see it differently then you.

    For some of us it seems to me that we have lost touch as to what it means to be a child. We make these statements that the "kids should have put the gun down" and you are correct the problem however is that we're dealing with a child which means Kids sometimes do dumb things-in a classroom when a teacher instructs some kids to stop doing something some kids don't always and immediately respond because they're kids doing dumb things.

    If we as adults accept procedure, policy as of right and how different are we than the German people who accepted the slaughter of Jewish people?

    There have been a number of policies and procedures but having them does not make them in and of themselves right!

    My point is being adults there are a number of situations which we could be better at but if we have reached the point where killing is a practical solution that we need to rethink who we are at asked the question how much is a human life worth?

    All this concerned about these poor policemen when they have been provided with protection, weapons, training and the only solution they could come up with is to kill. Let's always assume that the person is a threat- Never assume that we could be making a mistake!

  25. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    I'm sorry I don't agree with you.  We as a supposable intelligent and mature society do not need to revert back to Shoot First and Ask Questions Later.

    1. emrldphx profile image60
      emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You are suggesting a policy that police do not fire when guns are pointed at them. That is a very bad policy for the police.

    2. emrldphx profile image60
      emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      An intelligent person will assume(especially when the safety of potentially hundreds of people depends on them) that if a person points what looks to be a gun at another person, that the first should be dealt with. You can't provide a better action for the police to have taken than what they did.

    3. profile image69
      logic,commonsenseposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I guess they could have waited until the kid killed one of them or someone else.
      Yeah he had a pellet gun, but it looked real.
      Would you take the chance of being killed if you were in their shoes.

      It's a sad thing to happen, but judging from the kid's actions, it looks like the cops just improved the gene pool.

  26. emrldphx profile image60
    emrldphxposted 5 years ago

    One more thing for you to consider SpanStar.

    There are approximately 650,000 violent crimes committed with guns every year. Do you really want the police to attempt to closely examine every gun when they have someone pointing one at them?

    1. recommend1 profile image70
      recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Does that figure of 650,000 violent gun crimes include those committed by armed police officers shooting at innocent people ?

      Officials with guns need to have restraint and guts to do the job - shooting kids in school corridors should be the business of trusted and competent police officers, not the fat, arrogant bullies that we have seen parading in the schools and Universities of America as the law officers used to police schools. 

      In the past, an outright and uncompromising defence of police officers might have been justified - but not today when they appear  on countless video clips to be clearly just uniformed private security guards of low intelligence and poor mentality parading their ignorance and their contempt for the people they are supposed to be protecting.

      1. emrldphx profile image60
        emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Your post is so generic... I don't even...

        There are only ~400 justified homicides involving the police each year, I don't know if there is any figure like what you are talking about, police-involved murders?

        If a cop commits a violent crime against someone, it is included in the statistics. Really, what are you trying to say?

        What should police do when a gun is pointed at them? You have to answer that question if you want to put the police in bad light. Your second paragraph indicates that you don't approve of the police's actions, so what would you have them do instead?

        1. recommend1 profile image70
          recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

          instead ??     show calm and authorative behaviour, clear the area, make it quiet and talk to the kid, if necessary expose themselves to the danger and disarm him. 

          In other words do what they are paid for.

          Anyone not prepared to put their lives on the line to protect the public that they are paid to serve should get a different job.

          1. emrldphx profile image60
            emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Someone has a gun, and you don't want the police to stop that person? Especially if the police can catch the person away from other people(like in a hallway)?

            You avoided the question. What should the police do when someone points a gun at them?



            That's a pathetic statement. Cops are willing to put their lives on the line, and you demean what they do.

            Worse, you would suggest that when someone points a gun at the police, they should *talk to them*? Show some respect for those people who risk their lives for all of us.

          2. emrldphx profile image60
            emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Seriously... someone points a gun at you and you should just go up to them and take it out of their hand?

            1. recommend1 profile image70
              recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

              I guess that you are a product of the system where these kind of events are commonplace - I guess that I am the product of a system where it was 'normal' to 'just' walk up to them and take the gun away - certainly do a lot more talking and a lot less shooting.

              1. emrldphx profile image60
                emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I honestly can't see how you would ask the police to walk up to armed people and try to physically take away their guns as they are being pointed at them...

                It's your opinion, but don't ask our police to risk their lives like that.

                1. recommend1 profile image70
                  recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Of course it is just my opinion, but it is also what I have witnessed and practiced.  It was extremely rare that the offical ended up getting shot, maybe because there was real respect for people who deserved it, and this was heavily reinforced by the action of 'just' walking up and taking the gun away.  The police I have seen in the recent video clips do not deserve any respect, and even the police themselves have no respect for the uniforms they are wearing or the right to carry a gun.

                  1. emrldphx profile image60
                    emrldphxposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Tell that to the 71 police killed by guns last year, and between 500-1000 more wounded.

                    You keep referencing 'recent video clips', and I could guess what some of them are, but you try to bolster your point with un-related material. The issue is, what should police do when someone points a gun at them. It's clear you don't respect the police, which is sad considering where we would be without them. I guess your opinion on a few isolated incidents has tainted your view of the entire police force.

  27. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    What is it with you people- You say to yourself hey I think he/she has a gun-well the 6 of us shot them shot her death let's go to bar and be thankful she didn't hit any of us with our protective gear on-What she didn't have a real gun-Oh Well We Thought She Had One That's Good Enough To Take Her Life-This Kind Of Thinking Is Crazy And When People Think Like This NO ONE IN SOCIETY IS SAFE.  I just don't get how people can support this craziness because when the day come and they find themselves on a dark night with the police pointing their guns at them- doing every thing the tell you to do still is no guarantee you won't be kill because It's About Perspection. [REALITY]

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      That's quite a bit over the line here.  No one believes the cops had that attitude, nor do any of the posters.  You are exaggerating it to ridiculous levels.

      On the other hand, you have stated that the cops should have examined the gun before shooting occurs - an impossible task if the gun is real.  Recommend1 wants to clear the area - bring classrooms of children into the hall with the shooter and escort them from the building.  Both of you want the cop to "do his job" by exposing himself to unnecessary bullets.

      Let me explain something - the cops job is to protect the bystanders first.  Then protect themselves.  At the bottom of the list is to protect the shooter that is threatening everyone around.  You can't do the first two by exposing the other children (on the other side of that hall wall) to loose bullets, and you can't do it by leaving cops protected only by a little kevlar covering part of their body in the path of bullets.

      It is great that you can sit in your armchair at home and explain that a cop facing a violent person with a gun in hand can, in the 1/2 second available to them and from long distance, determine that the gun is fake.  It is wonderful that you can determine from that same chair that all cops are "fat, arrogant bullies" (recommend1).  It is great that you determine that a cops job is to die in the line of duty while doing really stupid things in order to protect a murderer from himself.

      But those cops were in the real world.  Not in your armchair with hours of time to decide if the gun were real.  They want to live as much as you do and are not soldiers charging an enemy line and making a barrier with their dead bodies.  Nor are they the fat arrogant bullies portrayed by recommend1 - they are your neighbors and friends who already expose themselves to danger every day to enforce the laws you have enacted.

      1. recommend1 profile image70
        recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        First I do not say anything of the sort and your need to misrepresent what I say, or lie if that is easier to understand, just shows the paucity of your position on this.

        Your good 'ol neighbors have been video'd pepper spraying students sitting quietly in teh most arrogant and bullying fashion, shooting gas grenades into the faces of peaceful protestors, beating the crap out of peaceful protestors with batons, and arresting bank queues tryhing to close their accounts.

        If this is your good 'ol neighborhood then good luck to you blind man.

        1. wilderness profile image94
          wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          From your earlier post:

          "...not the fat, arrogant bullies that we have seen parading in the schools and Universities of America as the law officers used to police schools."

          "show calm and authorative behaviour, clear the area, make it quiet and talk to the kid, if necessary expose themselves to the danger and disarm him."

          Did I misunderstand?  Did you not call the cops "fat arrogant bullies"?  Did you not advocate clearing the area?  Or do you now regret the words and charge me with lies to try and change them?

          And yes, Recommend, I remember those other threads as well.  "Peaceful" protesters intent on destroying public property and refusing to follow the law.  Protesters "closing their accounts" that were there for one purpose and one purpose ONLY - to disrupt the lives and livelihoods of other people.  You and I both know that "closing their accounts" was the excuse used, not the reason for their actions.

          I fully understand that you believe that people should be able to do whatever they want in the name of a "cause" or "public disobedience" but I disagree.  The laws we enact, and the police we hire and train, are not there to be ignored in order to "make a statement".  If the only way you can make your statement is to harm property or other people, do it from a jail cell.

          1. recommend1 profile image70
            recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Mis-quoting is the lowest manner of trying to bolster your narrow view in these discussions, something you do constantly. Making me appear to attack the work of the police when I clearly don't only shows that you are unable to read or are deliberately misleading.  The full quote is

            "Maybe I am persuaded in this direction from the videos of the recent protest footage where fat arrogant bullies in uniform pepper sprayed peaceful protestors, aggressively attacked groups of young people and shot tear gas grenades directly into crowds."

            Clearly critical of the schoolyard bullies and not the police force,
            as is also made clear in other comments, if you took the trouble to read back instead of shooting from the hip as these so-called 'police officers' appear to have done.

            Your view is already narrow enough as you have demonstrated many times, to maintain your aspirations to a middle class by believing that big brother is benevolent is so old hat that such people only exist in low level government offices in the UK any more - and luckily, even they are almost extinct.

            1. wilderness profile image94
              wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              My posts (concerning your comment about fat, arrogant bullies) were copy/pasted directly from your post at:

              http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/90321#post1932566

              The bolded area in this post, however, I am unable to find anywhere.  Care to describe the attributes of people that misquote again?  It would seem that they apply more to you (who cannot even quote yourself accurately) than to some (myself) that copies and pastes directly from your post.

              Or was the bolded sentence not intended to be a quote even though it was inside quotation marks?

              1. recommend1 profile image70
                recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/90321?p … ost1930611

                I guess you only see what you want to see - in the middle ages there were a christian sect who went around blindfolded and tied to each other so that they did not look upon evil, you would have fitted right in there at the back big_smile

                1. wilderness profile image94
                  wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  My humble apologies; that was on a thread that I had not examined, or at least not close enough. 

                  Apparently neither one of us was guilty of misquoting or misrepresenting. 

                  You should run for office, recommend1 - you have a large portion of that politicians talent to change your words, to divert attention from the subject by the use of insults and irrelevant statements, to sling mud gathered from your own imagination with the best of them.  You could have a real future there.

                  I bid you adieu; having insulted our police force doing their job, having repeatedly shown that your best method of debate is to degrade and insult rather than discuss, you have nothing to interest me further.

                  1. recommend1 profile image70
                    recommend1posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Your humble apologies are accepted.

                    The comment was in the same thread in the same conversation about the same topic and on the same page. 

                    I did not insult the police force, specifically the misquote you pulled focussed on the cardboard cops who are not the same thing as your everyday street cop, as was very clear in my posts.

                    and you degrade yourself.

  28. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    Some of you people ignore the truth when you're looking right at.  If the police are the cuddie little bears then Why Are Cops Afraid To Tell The Truth About Other Cops-(Amazing How We Constantly ignore the wrong that cops do)!

    I keep hearing from people like you That It Doesn't Matter That THE POLICE IS WRONG GO AHEAD AND KILL THE CITIZEN-BECAUSE WE ARE SCARED WE ARE GOING TO GET HURT!

    Being A Cop Isn't The Same As An Office Mail Clerk-If The Serving The Public Means Killing The Public Then I'd Recommend Another Line of Work-Everyone Can't Be Green Beret, Navy Seal,Ranger Why Because they don't have what it takes to do the JOB RIGHT.

    Unlike some of you people I don't believe in beating a death horse I'm not interested in winning people over, I've given you my prospective and if people can't accept that then I don't care.  Keep live in whatever reality they chose to live and I'll do likewise.

    1. wilderness profile image94
      wildernessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      You're right - a cop isn't an office mail clerk.

      S/he isn't a green beret, navy seal or a ranger, either.  Probably a good thing - none of those are trained to ignore a gun pointed at them either and the kid would have been hit 100 times instead of once or twice.  That is, if he didn't have an RPG launched at him and the hallway blown completely apart.

  29. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 5 years ago

    And these scared  police offers would be in the hospital with pellet wounds while they're burying that kid.

    1. uncorrectedvision profile image60
      uncorrectedvisionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      Or one of those officer would have been dead it the gun that looked real was real.  The officer cannot take the risk that it is not real.  His duty is to himself first, the the innocent bystander second and to the criminal third.

 
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