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We have lost sight of the important issue in health care.

  1. Josak profile image61
    Josakposted 4 years ago

    With all the controversy about Obamacare we have forgotten the real facts and issues. Here is a reminder of them. (links at the bottom.)

    According to Harvard university studies 45 000 people die yearly in the United States because they are uninsured medically.

    According to the OECD America has the third worst Years of potential life lost index in the developed world, being beaten by countries like Poland, Slovakia and New Zealand and only ahead of Mexico and Hungary.

    According to the WHO the US spends 6719$ per person on health care (before Obamacare)  for a life expectancy of 78 and 26 doctors per 10 000 people, Cuba spends 671$ (pretty much a tenth) per person for a life expectancy of 78 and 59 doctors per 10 000. The UK Spends 2815 for more nurses per person, more hospital beds per persona and a longer life expectancy by two years.

    The system before Obamacare is just not working at all, private ownership of health care has failed an has been abandoned by basically all developed nations.

       http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/ … hs-a-year/
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog … orld-obama
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_p … _life_lost

    1. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      It's hard to explain to Americans just how horrified most Australians, Brits and Scandinavians are at the heartlessness of Americans.

      When we listen to the news about Obamacare, the message we're hearing loud and clear from Americans is:  "if you're poor and sick, it's your own fault, so you can just suffer - or die".

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Agreed, in most developed countries it is unfathomable that you might die for lack of health care.

      2. innersmiff profile image79
        innersmiffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Good day from an un-horrified Brit!

      3. innersmiff profile image79
        innersmiffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Good day from an un-horrified Brit!

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, I bet you're one of the ones begging Cameron to introduce American style health care to the UK!

          1. innersmiff profile image79
            innersmiffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            No I'm begging for freedom and personal responsibility.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              How ever good the health care in any country is, it's only as good as the recipient.
              I'm perfectly free to take responsibility for the number of cigarettes that I smoke and the amount of booze that I pour down my neck.
              And I didn't have to beg anybody for that freedom.

              1. innersmiff profile image79
                innersmiffposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Exactly, as liberty promotes. I wouldn't suggest compelling another to pay for your bad health decisions, however.

                1. John Holden profile image60
                  John Holdenposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  But I've worked for around forty five years, most of them in good health, never seeing even my doctor. That's about 45 years when I've willingly been paying for the health care of others.

                  You know, it's a bit like driving your car, you hope that you never have to claim on your compulsory insurance but you feel more secure knowing that if you do you won't end up bankrupt.

            2. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Tell me, how much do you have in your bank account, if you were hit by a car tomorrow would you have enough to pay your medical bills? Upwards of 200 000$ sometimes.

              I had a rock load fall on my arm when I was working as a miner, total cost of repair was more than 150 000$ if the company had not been forced to pay it I would have lost my home, my car, everything I had ever worked for (not to mention most of the use of my arm) in one fell swoop due to no fault of my own. This is the reality you want for your country?

      4. 0
        Sooner28posted 4 years ago in reply to this

        It is what it is.  America is really slow to change.  We'll get there eventually though.

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          I hope so.

          1. 0
            Sooner28posted 4 years ago in reply to this

            I am optimistic!  As long as we don't destroy ourselves before, Justice can win in the end.

    2. 0
      JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Potential life lost, when taking into consideration America's obesity and diabetic rates, shouldn't be much of a surprise. Those two factors account for a tremendous amount of deaths, and have nothing to do with healthcare.

      You have to always ask if something is correlation or causation.

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        As mentioned in another forum we were discussing in a few minutes ago, several countries doing better on the years lost index have obesity problems just as severe, like Australia and New Zealand or the UK.

        1. 0
          JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          No.


          Obesity
          United States - 35.7%
          Australia - 20%
          United Kingdom - 23%

          1. 0
            JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            ?

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              http://www.theage.com.au/national/nine- … -2tjv.html
              http://www.japantoday.com/category/worl … ion-us-2nd

              According to both these sources Australia is the "fattest" nation in the world, what are your sources?

              1. 0
                JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Overweight is not the same thing as obese.

                http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ … ve/obesity

                1. 0
                  JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this
                  1. Josak profile image61
                    Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Our sources seem to contradict each other but it seems to be that the difference must be relatively small.

  2. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 4 years ago

    ? roll

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      ?

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Didn't expect you to understand. hmm

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          My mind reading skills are weak, I was expecting an actual reasoned response to the facts but instead I got emoticons tongue

          1. Cagsil profile image60
            Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Everyone wants Health Care. Everyone can get Health Care.

            I have no issues with Obama placing specific restrictions on Health Care Industry as such as "no one can be denied Health Care".

            I have a problem with the Government getting involved with the Health Care Industry, because as in the past, the Government has proven it cannot handle it's own house, much less anything else. These people are so pathetically stupid, it's not even funny.

            Secondly, in order to pay for it? It won't be paid for at all. Universal Health Care actually stays intact(providing the Supreme Court allows it to), then the U.S. will be dead as a Nation inside of 2-5 years.

            It will crush the only thing holding up the Economy presently. When it does this, then you will complain that it was corruption in Government which made things and you would be partially correct, but not in the frame of mind you would think.

            There's already corruption in Government before Universal Health Care and has for the longest time. So, now you want the Government to manage a Health Care System for every single citizen in the Country? Completely absurd.

            The fact that people are forced to buy products from other companies, paying their ridiculous prices because we don't have a choice in the manner. As these prices continue to go upward, as with Gas, Food and other things also increasing in pricing, you want to force people to buy(using taxes?) to pay into a system a corrupt Government will operate/govern/manage?

            You know, it is already absurd(Government) and you want to make it more absurd, instead of making it better.

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              If pretty much all the other developed nations in the world can handle it I am sure our government can too. As shown Universal health care is often much much cheaper than non universal health care, just look at the stats I posted above on the matter, the health care system in the US is ridiculously expensive. According to treasury expenditure estimates and independent economic review Obamacare would actually save money.

              1. Cagsil profile image60
                Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Then you're obviously not paying attention to the things the Government already fails at.
                Yes, it's ridiculously expensive, but don't blame just Health Care Industry because it's NOT the only cause to prices.

                1. 0
                  JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this
                  1. Cagsil profile image60
                    Cagsilposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    roll

                  2. Josak profile image61
                    Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah doctors get paid less in countries with public health care, but strangely have a higher job satisfaction.

  3. Bob Zermop profile image92
    Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago

    Universal healthcare is an excellent idea. It just shouldn't be mandated by the government.

    Of course i support healthcare being make available to everyone; who wouldn't? Yeah, I'm willing to pay more taxes so my fellow Americans don't die from easily curable causes that aren't their fault. Are some of you far right-ers really not willing to do that?

    But mandated by the gov? How can you justify that? The private sector will provide competition, improving both the quality of the gov healthcare and healthcare in the private sector. Yes, it's expensive, but I guess freedom is. Prioritize.

    1. 0
      JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      There are ways to make it work, but adding trillions more to our debt isn't the answer.

      America could go bankrupt the way we are going. We could turn into Italy or Greece. Our spending has GOT to change or we're going to be in much more pain than we are now.

      1. Bob Zermop profile image92
        Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. Reform should take place slowly and carefully, keeping in mind reality and priorities. But before we start anything, we need a clear goal in mind. That's the major problem we Americans can't seem to pull together as a country. IS IT SO DAMN DIFFICULT??? big_smile

        I smile, but it's true.

      2. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        According to Treasury and independent review Obamacare would save money, not cost money.

        1. Bob Zermop profile image92
          Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          Money is not the only or to me even the major concern. the mandate is the single biggest problem I have with Obamacare. Can't think of a reason good enough to justify that even coming close to outweighing the loss of liberty.

    2. kerryg profile image89
      kerrygposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Most single payer systems I know of have government health care available for everyone that covers pretty much anything an average person could need, and then private insurance for those willing to pay extra for extra perks. That seems like the most reasonable system to me.

      1. eternals3ptember profile image60
        eternals3ptemberposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah I don't know why people assume that it's meant to force you into some plan you don't want. National healthcare wouldn't obliterate private industry, it would just be there as a net for those who don't have private.

      2. Bob Zermop profile image92
        Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

        This seems fair to me, though I think it would be far better if the gov healthcare wasn't mandated, though if it was of decent quality I wouldn't think many would refuse it.

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

          In Australia they have full public care for everyone automatically and the option of going to semi private care if you can afford it for the luxuries like single occupant rooms and such. I think that is the best system.

          1. Bob Zermop profile image92
            Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

            Is the public health care mandated? like said previously, this is the biggest problem i have with this.

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              Mandated? I am not sure how it meets the definition, It's just automatic, any Australian citizen or permanent resident can go to a hospital, clinic or doctor and get free health care. That is included in their taxes. The obvious problem is that if is not mandated/automatic then people who do not pay for it will have no cover which means we have to be OK with letting people die because they did not pay for insurance otherwise no one will get it and the whole system falls apart.

              There is no loss of liberty just a small tax hike.

            2. Bob Zermop profile image92
              Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

              What I meant was "is worker's insurance necessarily provided solely by the gov?" I never knew that about austrailia's healthcare, very cool. Definitely what we should aim for here in the States and in the world in general, but will take time to pull that together. Semi-quoting someone from above - would happen faster if we didn't waste money killing others. just saying.

              1. Josak profile image61
                Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                Yeah I shudder to think that we could have accomplished health care wise with the money we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know New Zealand also has the same health care system, I believe several others do too.

              2. Bob Zermop profile image92
                Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                The problem with getting that here is the States is that we're not in a position to get there anytime soon, and I don't trust our gov to hand them my health. So we 're left with just going at reform slowly.

                1. psycheskinner profile image81
                  psycheskinnerposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                  That's quite the condemnation of US government. Let poor people have no healthcare at all, rather than everyone have a system run by the government. Makes sense only if the government is completely incompetent (arguable) and you are not poor or otherwise disqualified from insurance (which is largely a matter of fate).

                  1. Bob Zermop profile image92
                    Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

                    No, much better than forcing some to go without is to give them the option of public healthcare, as pitiful as that might be right now, needs lots of improvement. I mentioned the gov's incompetence as further reason against a mandate.

  4. 0
    JaxsonRaineposted 4 years ago

    "As it turns out, Americans have a better survival rate for 13 of the
    16 most common cancers. Among men, an American has nearly
    a 20-percent better chance of living for five years after being
    diagnosed with cancer than his European counterpart. American
    women stand a 7.2-percent better chance of living for five years
    after a cancer diagnosis than their European counterparts. "

    "And most states force residents to buy one-size-fits-all insurance
    packages that include all sorts of services that only a small slice
    of the population needs. The average state imposes 38 mandates on an individual health insurance policy. In 2007, there
    were 1,901 different mandates nationwide. These extraneous
    mandates increase the price of basic insurance by as much as
    50 percent."

    http://www.pacificresearch.org/docLib/2 … _Myths.pdf

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      This is getting way too specific, it's clear that overall US health care is a disaster the WHO has affirmed this. Not to mention that our health care costs close to three times as much as the Average European health care.

    2. Bob Zermop profile image92
      Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago in reply to this

      Have to say, agree with Josak. specific stats don't capture America's healthcare system in general, which in comparison to the world is really quite pitiful. I don't think, no matter in details whether there are disagreements, that AMerican healthcare could do with some improvment. Just trying to find out where we should go.

  5. Bob Zermop profile image92
    Bob Zermopposted 4 years ago

    Pulling together a couple of threads from above, it seems like most people who've checked in on this forum are basically in agreement about the goal. All people should have basic healthcare available to them and the government should be the one to provide that healthcare, though in the process of creating an Austrailian-esque healthcare-for-all society worker's healthcare should not be mandated by the gov. We should aim for this by prioritizing and cutting down unnecessary funding (I'm thinking wars). Disagreements or tweaks?

  6. 61
    geordmcposted 4 years ago

    As it stands if you are a single white male you won't qualify for healthcare whether you need it or not. I know this to be a fact since there is a three year waiting list in my state. If some one has children under 18 they will move the single man down to the bottom of the list.

 
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