General discrimination caused by ignorance

What is it that frightens you?

We have seen in this thread a heightened sense of disgust at the idea of someone in the family, in this case either parent, "coming out" and declaring them self homosexual.


In one particular case, "Iburmaster" has stated that she comes from a christian background and that obviously declares her abhorrence of anything "gay." We have heard this from so many christian sources, time and time again. What I would like to know is exactly what do christians fear will happen to them, individually, if for once they allow someone to make a free and personal choice in this matter?

Do they suppose that "god" will bring down some kind of wrath on not just the person(s) making that decision, but also on the born-again christian that is "allowing it to happen?"

What about the other areas of discrimination?

There seems to be a parallel phobia happening in this family. The mother would be very much against the daughter being approached by a "black man." Why? Is this another case of blind, ignorant, bible-led discrimination?

Is this family living in the dark ages? Does it think we should go back to the days of slavery, where anyone with a darker-than-pink skin was considered (conveniently) as sub-human? Are such people perceived as essentially lacking intelligence or morals, and therefore not fit to be associating with "my daughter?"

Maybe I am reading too much into just one little sentence in one post to this thread. Please enlighten me if that is the case and I will stand corrected. But it is important to address ignorance if that is what we see.


If a "god" is worth worshipping.....

Does the god that is revered need to be limited in his/her attributes, in order to satisfy such ignorance as described above? Must that god fit in with human perceptions as to what is "right" or "wrong?"

At what stage in the history of the world has that god given clear indications of what "he" or "she" will accept in terms of activity here on Little, Infinitesimal, Planet Earth?

Using a set of ancient scriptures to paint a picture of "god" for our present day does not seem a good idea. There are so many differences of culture and living conditions comparing then with now. Intelligence needs to be applied so that we connect with each other in our modern world. If you want to retain the notion of a supernatural power, "above" the mundane circumstances of life, then it's no good searching for answers from the distant past.

Because rest assured, if any such judgmental god exists, it has certainly moved on with the times!



The "God Within"

All the questions asked in the capsules above can be put right aside and disregarded, if each of us looks to that god within ourselves and tries to find individual, honest, down-to-earth answers. Put aside what others try to impress upon us. (Even what I am doing here is of no avail when you take up your personal responsibility.) That still small voice of calm within the deepest desires and yearnings of our lives can bring up much more trustworthy answers than any interpretations of obscure texts written by the hands of men with obscure motives.

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Comments 23 comments

moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico)

Good for you Jonny--as usual, a thoughtful Hub from a caring guy. I don't know what to say about the worst of the fundamentalists. To further your questions above, it's a truism that "all anger comes from fear" but damned if I can figure what they're afraid OF. Now, if gays outnumbered straights, the future of the race would be in trouble--but such is hardly the case. And the more hysterical of the fundamentalists wouldn't be capable of that kind of projective thinking anyway. So the quandary remains, doesn't it? Perhaps they fear that being gay is like a viral infection--if they permit gays to live in their communities unchallenged, the infection might rub off on their offspring? I've always had trouble with arbitrary fear and anger. I fumble along in my life, foolishly demanding thought and evidence before I pay attention to someone else''s belief structure. So I'm not a lot of help in advancing the core questions that form the substance of your Hub. Have you read my Hub on "God Created Evil"? If not, I'd be interested in your response. Oh! Let me know if you're unable to find it. When you go to my hub page, you have to click on 'more" or "all Hubs" (or whatever the button is). Others have complained that when they try that--they get nothing. It seems hub staff might be blocking access to my stuff. I'd be interested to hear if you have a similar experience. Cheers!


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 3 years ago

Good hub jonny - nice to know there are a few intelligent folks out there. Last night my wife and I watched the final two episodes of "To the Ends of the Earth" a story of England in the 1300's. My goodness how it emphasized the ignorance and superstitious people of that time. The church was so powerful, and corrupt. It was very well done and a bit scary- why? Because we haven't totally distanced ourselves from those same ignorant and superstitious ways. The evangelicals are still in that mode today.

I saw a good posting recently after Colorado (my state) legalized marijuana and gay marriage. The bible says that a man shall not lie with another man and if he does he should be stoned. We have been misinterpreting the bible all this time.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

@moonfroth, thanks for your post above. I am looking into and following the Hub you mention and have got halfway through. Will read more thoroughly later.


jlpark profile image

jlpark 3 years ago from New Zealand

Thanks jonny. Interesting look into what makes her make think the way she does.


ChristinS profile image

ChristinS 3 years ago from Midwest

Excellent hub. It is puzzling. I was raised in a super religious home and there were some prejudices among the older members of my family and even in the church itself, but I remember sitting at mass as a young child thinking "this is crap".. I just never had the ability to blindly follow what was being fed to me. "Love God or else!" I remember sitting there at 7 or 8 years old thinking well if this God guy is real I don't even like him, he's mean! then the fear "God" might hear my thoughts and I'd go to hell etc. the joys of church on an impressionable mind... My father for many years was racist, because his parents were. Eventually he saw the errors of his ways and softened a lot. That happened when a neighbor told him not to let me play with the little black girl that moved into the neighborhood, how "they grow up" etc. He resented that, saw it and didn't like that he was what he was. It was an epiphany.

My husband was raised the same way, by very strict, right-wing religious types who hated the idea of gay marriage etc. My husband is very open-minded and not religious at all. We are both deeply spiritual people, but have no use for dogma. We often joke we don't know how we came from our families.

His parents ultimately surprised us though. They were perplexed, but accepting of his agnosticism. Lately, their niece has come out and is getting married - and despite their years of disdain for gay marriage, they are actually setting that aside because they love her and want to attend her wedding. You just never know what people are going to let themselves be led - and what people will come around despite years of brainwashing. These folks are 70 and have started to see the light. Then there are young people who just will not open their minds or hearts... sad.

Great hub - sorry for the ramble :)


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

There things we sometimes need to get off our chest - so glad did and thanks for saying it!


S Leretseh profile image

S Leretseh 3 years ago

""coming out" and declaring them self homosexual"

Personally, I hv nothing against gays. I've accepted their 'peculiar' ways a long time ago. However, what I do hv a problem with - I'm not alone here - is the now exigent political movement involving this life style. Specifically, gay organizations dedicated to getting laws passed to give special favors to "their" members.

Gays hv NOT achieved progress as a group. They've achieved BULLYING RIGHTS over heterosexuals.

================

"daughter being approached by a "black man." Why? Is this another case of blind, ignorant, bible-led discrimination?"

Are you talking about an inter-racial relationships? The violence against white females who get involved in a relation with black men (no other race just black males) BOGGLES THE MIND. Before any white female gets involved with a black male ... she should be aware of the EXTREME violence that can be associated with these types of relationships - she deserves to know. The violence GETS VERY PERSONAL.

LONG, LONG LIST...

//americans4justice.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/black-males-white-females-deadly-or-dangerous/

============

"that god within ourselves and tries to find individual, honest, down-to-earth answers"

What does THAT mean?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

S Leretseh, thank you for your reply. Several points there to consider. My initial reaction was to be critical of what you have written. However, that would not be constructive or help us towards mutual understanding. So let me address each point with the aim of clearing up misunderstandings and misconceptions, hopefully in the context of the Title of this hub.

First, you used that expression, “.....I've accepted their 'peculiar' ways …..” What is in your mind when you use the term peculiar? Are you speaking about two guys walking hand-in-hand down the street, in full view of yourself and others? Some gay men do, some don't. For some African men, in Africa, this is a normal thing for heterosexual men to do! Are you speaking of some men kissing each other in friendship and love? It might not be the normal thing to do in your community, but surely the motivations are totally acceptable – so how can the action be offensive? Or is there some other attribute which makes homosexual persons peculiar in your opinion?

Next, the term “lifestyle.” There is no common factor across the gay population of this world which identifies them as homosexual, except their preference in one way or another for the company of their own gender. If you are referring to anal intercourse, I must tell you, adamantly (and you cannot argue this with me, it is a fact), that not all homosexual men engage in this type of intercourse. So it is not a characteristic, across the board, for being homosexual and should not be used as an excuse for the purpose of prejudice. On the other hand, many heterosexual persons do engage in it. Would you judge their “lifestyle” as well?

I hope this opens up some thoughts for you, S Leretseh. I have been reading through some of your Profile here in Hubpages. It seems you are searching for answers.

Now, let's just look briefly at the question of the politicization of being homosexual.

Any group of people that finds itself threatened socially or physically will ultimately fight back. African, Arab, Indian, Maori, numerous indigenous tribes, have all felt the onslaught of “white” domination. Afro-Americans have felt this, to a greater degree than most. Why should they not fight to protect themselves? We “white” (pink if you prefer!) folk may find ourselves in the same situation in the future.

People of different religious persuasions have had to do the same. In particular, those proclaiming themselves christian had to fight for their survival. Even today, in our modern world, christians in several countries are fighting for their rights against very real threats. Would they be denied the right to become politicized, to rise up against those who threaten?

Women have needed to become a strong political force, in the face of male domination. In some ways this process has lead to advancement for women in general. In other cases, I feel, it has led to unnecessary antagonism. Yet, I don't hear people banning women from being women!

So, let me round up this response by putting a suggestion to you and all my readers: Can we just stop, even very briefly, in our automatic reaction of distaste towards those who appear different? Can we individually open up a window to explore the needs, the aspirations, the hopes, the fears, the potential love that can be found in “that person I am about to vilify?”


S Leretseh profile image

S Leretseh 3 years ago

I said I hv no problem with the lifestyle of gays. They are the way they are... Humans are not mechanical devices, mr. lately. We do not all act in a 100% identical and predictable pattern. You seem to want total submission to your point of view:; no such thing as different races of people; no such thing as males and females (all in your mind mr. white male); no such thing ethnic groups; no such thing gays and heterosexuals. Ever notice mr. lately that those who espouse your kind of 'total group nullification' ideology...are white and Christian?

"Any group of people that finds itself threatened socially or physically will ultimately fight back."

Yes, one would think that would be true. Yet here in America ... blacks have been attacking white people in brazen hate attacks for the last 48 years...and white people have always sucked it up -- millions and millions of racial attacks by blacks on white people ...over the last 48 years, not ONE retaliation attack by white people. Google black on white racism to see just how BAD this situation has gotten.

The major problem with your 'group' nullification ideology mr. lately:: every 'group' must practice nullification simultaneously....or it fails. It's the ol "I'll fall backward on that bed of nails and you'll catch me. And if you don't catch me, I'm DEAD. But I'll trust you COMPLETELY" ... "Ok", says mr. lately, " mr. white guys, you guys go FIRST"

=====

As for gays, they were NEVER a victimized "group" in America NEVER! They've politicized their lifestyle to get BULLY laws from the democratic party (civil rights protection=get-rich lawsuits for the democratic party's groups)

And as for blacks, they also were NEVER (after 1865) a victimized racial group. NEVER! After 1865, blacks were in FACT a free people in America, in every sense of the word they were FREE. The black race marched down America's streets in the early 60s demanding INTEGRATION across-the-board -- something no other people had ever done in human history! A people who are being victimized by another people would not - logically - demand integration into THAT very group.

In my many, many discussions with white males and females who DEMAND that white people commit to 'group' nullification, I find it very curious indeed that all of them live in overwhelmingly white communities/countries -- like you mr. lately.

Let me know mr. lately when you want to come to Los Angeles to live REAL diversity. I will personally assist you in finding suitable housing in an all black community or an all Hispanic community.

But before you consider this idea, here is an example of a Liberal who gets her reality check:

://nypress.com/harlem-its-a-hard-knock-life/


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

I have allowed your entire post here, so that others can see the extent of your opinion.

There is no need for me to add anything.....


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

It is my firm opinion that all sides of a discussion need to be aired and heard, even (especially) the most extreme, but please don't assume that I agree with all or any of what S Leretseh has said.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico)

I won't dignify S Leretseh's rhetoric with a detailed response, which would just encourage him/her to blather out more of the same tired stuff..and who needs it? Jonny has an amazing talent for posing contentious questions that are insoluble; ideally, they produce thoughtful perspectives from which everyone learns. Or they produce polarizing, self-serving blather from which one learns little that advances the issue. Okay, S Leretseh, I've already written your response--let's see how close you get.


S Leretseh profile image

S Leretseh 3 years ago

"I won't dignify S Leretseh's rhetoric with a detailed response, "

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a comment similar to that one, I could replace my 2012 BMW with a 2013 model. Have to admit tho, in my younger days (high school) whenever I was short on specifics in any argument/discussion, I would respond with something similar to mr. moon’s comment.

Regarding mr. lately's Hub here, I don't find anything contentious about it, nor "insolable". I found three issues I wanted to respond to... and I addressed them. However, re-reading mr. lately’s Hub, I find he doesn’t state “race-nullification” specifically. Still, I don’t think mr. lately would deny he’s fully committed to race (or “group”) nullification.

Again, what does this mean?

"if each of us looks to that god within ourselves and tries to find individual, honest, down-to-earth answers"

If I had to take a stab, I would say that what mr. lately is implying, albeit, so vaguely most would miss it, is that everyone should agree with him.

One finale comment. I think mr. lately is a wonderful guy. If the whole world was made of people like him…well, earth would be a gigantic nirvana. Of course, nirvana is impossible to achieve. Nice to think about tho… Which is what mr. lately's comments in this thread represent to me: Something nice to think about but impossible to achieve. I was just never one to build fairy-lands in the sky --condemn me if you want


moonfroth 3 years ago

mr. leretseh--

Your response was VERY close to what I had anticipated. Thank you for being so comfortably predictable. I won't keep you for long. First of all, you make it clear that if you have "addressed" an issue, that takes care of that--it is no longer contentious. An interesting approach to problem-solving. But, when you self-define "resolution," I suppose you can tidy up your own--and the world's-- problems with just a few deft sweeps of that steel-trap mind of yours. in not so much as a phrase of his Hub did jonny even suggest he wanted everyone to agree with him. Where DID you get that? Your point that blacks and gays have never been victimized as defined, coherent groups, is probably supportable on the evidence--but to then move that point into an ARGUMENT that downplays their victimization, is specious and pathetic. Finally, your throwaway dismissal that Nirvana is unattainable will come as a huge surprise to the millions of Buddhists and Zen masters who have achieved that state. You should slide into your BMW and go talk to a few of them on your way to your Junior College night class in Principles of Argument.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

(You beat me to it by a few second, Moonfroth.)

"If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a comment similar to that one..."

so presumably much of what you write gets the same response. I wonder why?

"I could replace my 2012 BMW with a 2013 model.".... so you are a pretty successful businessman, right? Got to keep the dollars rolling, right?

"Still, I don’t think mr. lately would deny he’s fully committed to race (or “group”) nullification.".... I certainly do deny it. There is no such thing as "race" as in different human species. We are all human, 100%, as one species. It is only culture(s), influenced by circumstances, geography, topography, climate, that have produced the different ways of life for any of us.

"if each of us looks to that god within ourselves and tries to find individual, honest, down-to-earth answers".... Do you personally ever listen to your conscience? The inner, "still small voice of calm," that tells you whether what you do, or you intend to do, fits in with a Fair Go For All? Whether you business, making-money pursuits hurt anyone else? Whether your political affiliations actually are there to satisfy your selfishness, your greed? That Conscience is the God within you. Yours and yours alone to address. The only person responsible for your responsible choices in your life is you.

When you can get to agreeing whole-heartedly with that person inside of you, with an absolutely clear conscience, then you have met and dwell with that God inside of you. Don't worry about anything else until you have got that one straight. (I am still working on my task, and will do so until I die. Entirely down to me, as your business with yourself is entirely down to you.)

What for me would "nirvana" amount to? Walking into the lowliest of dwellings, meeting the most down-to-earth, humble person or family, who are really down on their luck, but then being offered to share with them in pure love and caring for each other.

The opposite to this would be walking into one of those Mega-churches, where everyone is middle-to-upper class, dressed "nicely," singing high-and-mighty hymns to a non-existent, non-functional "gard," in a building that cost billions, accompanied by and organ that tries to beat every other organ in the world, listening to a preacher that is up himself, or herself. Oh, and I almost forgot....the cheque or banknotes onto that magnificent gold plate, just for "gard."

Thanks for your comment, S Leretseh, I have enjoyed responding.


S Leretseh profile image

S Leretseh 3 years ago

@ mr. moon-beam ... JUNIOR COLLEGE?! Okay, even tho I was brought up to be respectful to really old people, that junior college swipe was too low a blow. So the gloves are off :) From hence forth, I will refer to you what your user-name BEGS:: moon-beam

“ I've already written your response” “Your response was VERY close to what I had anticipated”

First, I do hv to say mr. moon-beam, your powers of telepathy do impress me. But I know ….you already knew that.

"you have "addressed" an issue, that takes care of that"

This was an editing mistake. The original sentence was: "I found three issues I wanted to address." I changed it and - obviously - erroneously left the revised part undeleted (which compelled mr. moon-beam to respond). Yes, I know. You'll never get back those lost few precious seconds it took you to read & respond. …C’est la vie. And, AGAIN, I did not respond to anything mr. lately wrote in this hub because I found it contentious. I gave mr. lately my viewpoint on a few things he wrote. My viewpoint(s) can from time to time certainly be construed as contentious.

"in not so much as a phrase of his Hub did jonny even suggest he wanted everyone to agree with him."

You obviously were unaware that mr.lately and I have had a back and forth before in one of my hubs (surprised your great powers of telepathy failed you there). I know him to be a believer in the Happy Human Family (race, group, gender nullification). To me, this is building a fairyland in the sky. The Happy Human Family crowd is basically an all or nothing crowd - ideologues. Not proselytizers. Just people who actually believe in world bliss- nirvana -- i.e. as a cognizant creation. God, our divine creator, has decided that humans MUST be in a perpetual state of conflict. All of human history tells us this --And those who chose to ignore history … are bound to the realm of insignificance.

BTW, Nirvana is a purely a subjective concept, much like believing in a utopia or race-nullification. It is an individual pursuit. The Happy Human family crowd envisions it as an all-encompassing human condition - a fairyland in the sky.

"Your point that blacks and gays have never been victimized ... is probably true ... then [you] move that point into an ARGUMENT that downplays their victimization, is specious and pathetic. "

Hmmm. Unless my acute comprehension is failing me here, you have wrote one sentence … then contradicted it entirely with the very next sentence. Very careless indeed. So which is it? IYO, have blacks and gays been subjected to brutal victimization in America or haven’t they? If you DARE to answer yes, you must provide supportive evidence. None of this “pathetic” or “specious” argument bailout nonsense. Honestly tho mr. moon-beam, what I’ve seen from you so far - responses that demonstrate a complete lack of pertinent knowledge - you should give up. Stick to poetry.

------------------------

And this brings me to mr. lately…

"If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a comment similar to that one..."

“so presumably much of what you write gets the same response. I wonder why?”

I’ll tell you why. It’s because so, so many are completely uninformed or misinformed regarding the history of the black race; and American history in general. When I challenge their media/academician 'indoctrination' ... with historical facts, logic and common sense, they have nothing to come back with - for truth cannot be defeated, denied or defied - so they get angry. The anger is a normal human response in the debriefing & deprogramming process.


moonfroth 3 years ago

Mr. Lehretseh--

You're right, Sir, I erred grievously in suggesting you should attend a night course in Principle of Argument at your local junior college. How careless of me to mislead you, for clearly I would have condemned you to failure. A HIGH school night course would be the one you want. If they have a Low school locally, check that out first. Good grief, Man!--you can't even follow your OWN argument. I, me, Moonfroth said nothing about MY views on the black/gay victim issue--I was referring to the way YOU presented it. Missed that, eh? And a whole lot more. But enough, enough. You don't really want to take me on in an exchange of wit and logic--that is, unless you're into self-inflicted intellectual pain on an almost cosmic scale. Goodbye.

ABOUT MY OWN VIEWS N THE BLACK/GAY VICTIM ISSUE


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania Author

Moonfroth the posts are now becoming nuisance value only and trending towards the abusive so I have denied any further posts from him or her. I did but try to encourage good discussion but some just do not take the hint.


Jean Bakula profile image

Jean Bakula 15 months ago from New Jersey

I also believe the prejudice comes from fear. My son has a friend (a girl) who never had a boyfriend, went to an all girl college, and her parents are very judgmental. She is beautiful, and it's pretty obvious she's a lesbian who is afraid to come out to her parents. Now that her younger sister is dating boys, the parents are afraid she is "hanging with the wrong crowd." Meanwhile, they have blinders on and refuse to see their good looking, nice,daughter who all the boys flirt with, never goes out with any of them. It's so sad. I guess some people just don't see what they don't want to see.

I read the thread, and was happy you finally cut that person off. I see gay rights as a civil rights issue. Why shouldn't they be entitled to whatever everyone else has? All the gay people I know are productive members of society, and are really good people. The government and narrow minded people should mind their own business.


Kylyssa profile image

Kylyssa 14 months ago from Overlooking a meadow near Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA

There's nothing to be afraid of; it's just love.

I found your perspective on the issue interesting and refreshing. I find homophobia sad, disturbing, and sometimes quite terrifying. I also find it fascinating because I can't understand exactly where it comes from, what emotional processes allow the cognitive dissonance of it to exist in an otherwise rational mind.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 13 months ago from Tasmania Author

Kylyssa, please forgive me for not responding to your post above. Thank you for looking into the Hub; it's just as important and poignant now as ever it was.

You say, " I can't understand exactly where it comes from." I cannot say for sure, but suspect it's all related to instinctive fear of the unusual, the unfamiliar; all derived from our ancient life as animals in the wild and dangerous conditions. Our reactions to things we have not confronted up close are pretty much automatic. If we can actually recognize the reactions, accept that they are instinctive and not a reflection of our intelligence.....then it's possible to use our human intellect and say, "Well, I see where I am coming from now, perhaps I can change my responses just a little bit." Then it can lead to less antagonism, more consideration for the other person's position and point of view.

That's all I can say really. Please feel free to respond again if you wish to discuss further.


Jean Bakula profile image

Jean Bakula 13 months ago from New Jersey

I guess some people, especially in rural areas, aren't used to interacting with people who don't look like them, share all their religious beliefs, or act in any way different. I live in a small town in Northern NJ, less than an hour from NY City, (depending on traffic) and it's pretty much an all white Republican town, no racial diversity, no openly gay people. I only stayed because my house is on a one lane road off the beaten path, and I love the privacy and nature. Plus I can get away from "them."


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 13 months ago from Tasmania Author

Good points you have made, Jean.

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