Just Because You Have Boobs, Doesn't Make You a Woman

Sex change changes everything

One of my first hubs, over two years ago, was about my experience with my dad when he got a sex change. I wrote from my heart. I wrote, not caring about whom I pissed off or who thought I was weird or ignorant. That original piece garnered more than 500 comments. This is all very personal for me, but it was daring transparency that began my journey writing on hubpages. I'm tearing up old roots, digging deep, and finally giving this story an update. I’m dusting the cobwebs off and even losing some psychological baggage here.

The back story is basically about 10 years ago my dad dropped a bomb on me that he got a sex change- everything done, new name, breast implants, different personality, etc. I was shocked and thought him to be careless about not even giving me a warning. I grieved my dad and tried to welcome a new woman into my life. Let’s just say our relationship has been turbulent, and not just because of my dad's change.

all woman on the outside... a transsexual beauty contest
all woman on the outside... a transsexual beauty contest
Yes, even this could be a man. Hmmm...
Yes, even this could be a man. Hmmm...

It is a psychological disorder

Gender identity disorder (GID) or gender dysphoria is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant (discontent) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.

Acceptance has it's downfalls

Many years ago when I first laid eyes on my dad as a "woman", frankly I saw him/her as a clown. I didn't see a woman at all. That was my first mistake- I was looking for a woman. The first visits, I would search hopelessly for my long lost dad, then later visits I gave up that endeavor and accepted seeing my dad as a person, not really one gender or the other. This helped quite a bit.

I think it's commendable that's today's society is becoming "progressive" in acceptance and tolerance- or the grey area in humanity, but this has some downfalls as well. I am my dad's daughter and I was raised to question things- not just accept. I really hope humanity does not lose this ability in search for ultimate tolerance. If we lose this ability we lose the ability to help. Often times we learn of someone being homosexual or transsexual and the progressive self says, "good for them!" yet my background in psychology always triggers something that says, "is there more to this?"

Of course this questioning is looked down upon if I am to be a good progressive citizen, but honestly we look down upon and create a stigma around mental illness that sometimes these grey areas coincide with something that needs to be addressed other than accepted.

My dad explained only a few things about his sex change and one was that he always remembered "being in the wrong body", not feeling right with the male anatomy. But this clashed with my thoughts of who a woman was. My dad was raised as a boy and didn't go through the typical life events of a girl to woman. My dad was nothing like a woman and when he/she acted like it, it was purely an act. Seeing my dad as a woman was like watching a Saturday Night Live skit about a man dressed up pretending to be a woman. It seemed more unnatural.

A reoccurring thought in my head all these years is what does it mean to be a woman? Can anyone just "feel like a woman" with the slash of a knife or the growth of a luxurious mane? Why do male to female transsexuals think they need to look like a woman on the outside to feel like a woman on the inside? So my dad gets a few surgeries and suddenly he's a woman? Hold the phone...shut the front door!!!! Folks, it ain't that easy! I've been a woman for quite a while and I'm telling you...it ain't that easy.


Present day

Over the years, my dad has morphed into someone I still do not recognize as a woman. The closest resemblance to a woman is probably the awkwardness in my dad's body language that screams teenage girl all over it. Flaunting and then hiding scared- the constant dance between uncertainty and excitement, but definitely someone who will never be a woman.

The biggest component of this last visit was my realization that looks do not make a woman. We like to think so, it's easiest to classify women from what we see on the outside. You could give a giraffe stripes but that doesn't make them a tiger. The woman that many transsexuals think they are is a creation between society's superficial standards (clothes, makeup) and the medical community's insistence upon matching the inside with the outside and getting surgery- they honestly just fear the tendency for suicide rather than really treat someone for Gender Identity Disorder.

The medical community is just as guilty as the one-sided groups of people in society- those that get accused of condemning others for not being like them. The medical community insists that if a man doesn't want to be a man, then they must be a woman and a sex change is the only way they will be happy. What happened to an option in between, perhaps both happily coexisting in the same body?

The problem when a man gets the sex change he's been waiting for, probably for a long time (my dad waited until he was 55), the man they once were and perhaps detested, is still inside them. It doesn't go away. Rather than accepting that man, they shun him and believe he disappears once the sex reassignment surgeries are complete. The identification with both male and female is still present on the inside yet on the outside it is made to be one or the other. The inconsistencies and cognitive dissonance this person experiences is what often the family members see and why it can create feelings of disbelief, judgement, selfishness, and non-acceptance among everyone involved.

I saw that my dad tried to change who he was as a person, the personality and everything to go with the outside. Yet with transgender people I thought they always grew up wanting to match their inside to their outside and somehow, once my dad has his sex change, he was striving to match the inside to his outside.

my personal hero growing up!
my personal hero growing up!
mother and child
mother and child

On becoming a woman...

As a girl, I identified with my dad and at that time he was a strong male figure; accomplished in career, assertive in personal dealings, intelligent. But if you've read my back story on this, you'd also know my dad was a transvestite when I was little, meaning he would spend an evening or two a week dressed up in frilly stuff around the house. My thoughts on this weren't clear as a young child. When people believe it has nothing to do with mental illness, I think they need to live it because a child has no idea what to do with dad dressed up nor should a mentally sound adult expose them to it.

I disassociated with the frilliness of this female side for years, well into my teens, I shied away from frilly girly items. That girliness didn't settle well with me and I never figured out why until this last visit with my dad- it just came to me.

I think I had that epiphany because since my dad is technically a "woman", I realize I am truly all woman. Now don't laugh because you all can say, 'Of course you are. Who would have doubted the obvious?' But it took me time to realize the outside doesn't make a woman- I don't have to be dressed up and frilly. For years my dad made me feel that frilly equated woman and since I wasn't frilly I thought less about myself as a woman.

It was sometime after my teen years that I knew I don't have to try to be a woman or try to dress like one. I just am. And I am a mother too, which really has completed my personal transition into womanhood. The instinctual nurturing and selflessness I have toward my child is who my mom was, not my dad. I look back and I was confused, my mom was my role model.

What is interesting about my mom and dad- married for 18 years and divorced now for more than that- is my dad picked on my mom for her traits that were distinctively female. This could have been jealousy all those years because he desired so badly to be a woman. But now that my dad has been a "woman" for at least 10 years, he picks at those traits in me. It used to irritate me and something this last visit changed- it made me proud to be a woman. Those traits including being emotional, worrying about my child, changing my mind, soft and sappy- yep, I'm a woman.


My best friend

My best friend is a man who wants to be a woman. No, it's not my dad, sadly. However, I met a wonderful human being on my original article here. We have gotten to know each other now for years and talk on a daily basis. He says "I saved his life!" I'm seriously humbled by this, but I won't take the credit. He read my articles about my dad and at the time wanted to transition from male to female, but after reading what I'd written, he changed his mind.

What makes him a beautiful friend in my eyes is this comment, "what woman leaves her child?" If he transited, he would be taking away the father his kids always knew. A woman doesn't do that and while he still feels a strong connection to both his male and female side, he doesn't believe surgery is the answer, nor do I. He is thought of as strange when he visits his transgender group- he is a trans who doesn't need to change so dramatically.

The lesson: if we truly are who we are, we don't have to match the outside really. Burn victims don't change who they truly are if their outside appearance has changed. The compulsion for transgender to transition fully and have surgery comes from an impulse, which stems from an obsession that manifests from mental miswiring. Nobody likes anything to do with mental illness which perpetuates the stigma in our society. Mental illness or even some miswiring isn't "bad", it just needs some assistance which we neglect to do as a people, a government, and society.

What now?

Being around my dad is a heavy burden- one I don't choose often. I see someone who believed in a sex reassignment miracle and only seems more confused than ever. The woman in me pities the man and girl in him/her. He/she will likely be lost forever; nobody understanding him and even him/her not understanding herself. My dad still believes he has a switch between being a woman and a man and turn one or the other on and off at will.

I do believe one person can be both, a little of both always present. I do believe a man can strongly identify with women and still be a man on the outside without a sex change. I don't think our society has gotten that far yet- many are still programmed to be one or the other. And the public doesn't want to guess, they want one or the other as well.

Another possibility...

Androgyny- "Androgyny is the combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. Sexual ambiguity may be found in fashion, gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual lifestyle."

I wish we'd hear about this more often, but we still haven't progressed to the notion that people can be a little or a lot of both. We still live in a world where we group people into male or female. I believe once we make it to this destination and accept some people are BOTH then we will have troubled transgenders who insist they must have sex reassignment surgery upon the basis of what the medical community and society tell them. In other words, they won't be happy without the surgery, which is sad.

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Comments 299 comments

Just Ask Susan profile image

Just Ask Susan 5 years ago from Ontario, Canada

That was sure interesting and now I will go and read The Back Story about your father being a transsexual. I cannot imagine how this made you feel as a child. I suppose we all have things we just deal with and this is one of yours.


daskittlez69 profile image

daskittlez69 5 years ago from midwest

I love your hubs. Nowhere else can you go to get this much personal information coming at you like a freight train. Thanks for sharing hon. Here's your up.


Husky1970 5 years ago

To know that you are what you were created to be is as good as it gets. Izetti, you knowing that you are all woman, inside and out is terrific. Me, knowning that I am all man is as well. I can't understand the struggles that some human beings experience with this because it just seems so complicated. I have not ever been close to anyone who has struggled with this problem and can only imagine how difficult it must be. Your hub is excellent and the fact that you are willing to share such personal strife is amazing. Voted up and useful.


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 5 years ago from Phoenix, Arizona

Then there was that guy in Florida who wanted boobs and a vagina because he thought he was a woman trapped inside a man's body, while at the same time believing himself to be a lesbian.

In the end, they still look kinda goofy, like men wearing women's clothes. They still have thick wrists and other masculine features.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Just ask Susan~ Thanks for stopping by. It's an old story for me... but lately it just seems to be coming to a closing. I've always thought no matter what happens as a kid, it's what you do with it later. For me, I turn everything into a lesson of some sort so I get something out of it.

daskittlez~ nothing is ever accomplished without taking giant leaps. Writing that original hub many years ago was my giant leap, my debut so to speak, on the internet- lol. It paid off though- I've had a chance to help others and others have helped me. Kind of cool. Didn't mean to run you over with my freight train- lol!


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Husky~ It is difficult to watch someone you care about struggle with not fitting in anywhere. HUsky, we've got the convenience of knowing right where we belong.


barbergirl28 profile image

barbergirl28 5 years ago from Hemet, Ca

What an interesting story. I can't relate... but I do have a friend whose father decided to become a woman. I know how difficult it was on him. He came back on leave one day and suddenly his dad was a woman. I know he was frustrated, but I am glad you have come to understand the situation. I agree... it isn't the outside that matters. A true woman knows they are one, because they have all the qualities on the inside. And that is something no surgery can change!


marellen 5 years ago

I can't even imagine this, especially as a child and your parents being married for 18 years while your Dad dressed in his fem clothes. This reminds me of Chandler on friends and how he coped with his Dad or did he? Fuuny that you write, although your Dad thinks he is a women on the outside he will never be one on the inside. Its not taught and can't be learned. Thanks for sharing this with us.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Will~ I agree. It still reminds me of a wolf in sheep's clothing.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

barbergirl~ You've got all that right. They may feel like they've been a woman on the inside from the time they were young, but it is only their perception of a woman, not really a woman.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

marellen~ like i was telling barbergirl above- they have this perception of what a woman is, but it is only their personal illusion. Many are not happy before or after the sugery. Yes, I remember the thing about Chandler's dad- I forgot about that until now. Thanks for stopping by!


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

Sis,

You know how I feel about this. I don't dislike your father. I don't know him. I do however thinks he is and has been extremely selfish. I know this very well put together hub isn't about that, but I'm your friend, and I'll say what I think. This whole subject of your dad actually pisses me off. I don't care about all that tollerance crap, I think the dude ripped you off. He could have put his all important needs off until his little girl was a grown woman. You put Haley in front of everything, and you deserved the same consideration. You've always stayed tough on this, and put on a very cool act, but the fact is your dad ripped you off just as bad as my dad did to me, and it hurts like a mother. I'm a okay now, and while what I went through was something no kid should go through, I never told myself that "it wasn't that bad." That's why I'm okay. The more thought I've given it, you had it just as bad. Although you didn't have to put up with the violence and sex, betrayal, is betrayel. Okay, I'll stop, but it is what it is, and if you won't say it sucks, I'll say it for you. Sorry to take something so personal nation wide, but it was coming sooner or later. Call me when you forgive me.

jim


jeanine 5 years ago

Thank You.... my life is better for knowing you.... I have come of age as a two spirit creative and it's you... I love you...for the release I have found in writing and enjoying reading you... there is clarity in knowing there is two.. for me... not like the clarity of a singleton but still clearer if one can see both sides,if gender is a factor in ones life. I certainly appreciate your candor and yes, It is sad to see friends that are in their 60's acting like teens... excited and then shy seems to be the consensus... "WillStar" that you think they are goofy looking shows your fear, try not to be afraid... they really care not what you think that so don't waste the moment, they are humans being and generally very bright, just have a glitch that most do not... very creative people, just naïve when it comes to medicine, they are so hopeful for relief, the medical community has taken advantage of these men... men who have not been educated in living with both genders, your response shows how little is known by average people about gender and how those who are not sure actually a lot like single gender people...we are people and beings that share this good earth with you but are not like you in certain ways.. for my kind or tribe is different that yours, but not any less than yours, like you are not less than ours... I hope you understand more now and I truly hope I wasn't offensive to you....izetti, I do so appreciate your honesty,you remind me of the new woman, new world, where all man and womankind will be equal... for that is why the first of our tribe were tricked into sex changes, they know what is to come but jumped the gun... pioneers in the land, so to speak, for there comes a time when woman will rule the world, a time when she will be held in places of honor for her wisdom, lifted up because of her compassion, where all of mankind will treat her with reverence for she becomes great and worthy... my tribe are forerunners of all men to come... we see what is to come... I know how outrageous that sounds, but it really is what is happening before each of your eyes... try and pay attention... God is coming and man will no longer be over woman... we have had our chance and brought war and corruption, death and pain upon the world... there is a change coming but not the one we all think we see... sorry if that's to heavy or to out for anyone... listen closely when you are alone... the winds are whispering a change....love you izetti....


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jim~ you're my friend and you care so I truly appreciate and understand where your words are coming from. From someone who has also been hurt- boy, we've been through some rough stuff here in the open on hubpages. We're bold like that!!!

it was like anyone with a compulsion; a compulsion to drink, to gamble, etc and these people often put it ahead of their families. I do regret all the confusion about being a little girl seeing my dad dress up and having to lie to everyone around us about the secret. There was a time that I was even pissed off at my mom for putting up with it- she was just as guilty. You get mad and as you've done, I forgive because it would eat us up inside if we tried to redo things or understand everything. We've both healed Jim- still some of it comes out in our personality, but as I was reading in the Bible the other night, I saw a quote off to the side of one page and it read; "Life's adversities are God's universities"- so true! I like who I am today so something must have gone right. I still remember what you said to me about having to get rid of Haley's biting guinea pig and you said it is tough but it prepares her for future disappointments and life.

Thanks Jim


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ if only more realized the power of two. So many hold out for this medical miracle in a surgery. They practice being female when it could very well be natural to accept both. I love how different people can be and it is something we all can learn from. It makes me think of infinite possibilities for humankind.

Many Male to female are told to live as a woman and forget the man before they get surgery. This in no way prepares them. None are told to try out both- I bet you!

If women are smart they will stay out of the ruling of the world business- lol. We'll rule from the sidelines.

Jesus is seen as having both male and feminine qualities showing more power and insight because of this. i understand where you are coming from and not too heavy if this info gets out into mainstream a bit more. People need to hear something over and over again before accepting. It's not radical, people should be who they are comfortable with and I believe many trans are not comfortable being one or the other- some are and some not, some belong to both, the two-spirited.


SilentReed profile image

SilentReed 5 years ago from Philippines

In the movie "Normal" Tom Wilkinson portrays a middle age married man who decides to become a "woman". Is it in the genes,a fluke of nature like a hermaphrodite with an ambiguous sexual character, a psychological condition that have not been fully resolve that drives a person to have a sex change.Are we living in a more open and tolerant society or is it the culture of permissiveness and promiscuity? Which ever one's conviction take him/her on this issue.I believe people like your father must have spend many tormented moments wrestling with his inner conflict.It must have also taken much courage to come out in the open.In this respect,he was more "macho" than other "males" who conceal their effeminate tendencies and living a double life. The thing I am not in agreement with BOTH your parents is in allowing a little girl to witness their marriage arrangement.They should have been more circumspect and aware of the possible emotional trauma to a child's mind.


TheManWithNoPants profile image

TheManWithNoPants 5 years ago from Tucson, Az.

I'm going to send you something to the jean .. address. I'ts freaking beautiful. Dirty language, but still very cool.

jim


wychic profile image

wychic 5 years ago from Sheridan, Wyoming

Awesome hub! I don't know what it's like to be so close to someone who struggles with gender identity, but I do know what it's like to watch the endless struggles that people close to me have with traditional gender roles. My husband, for instance, is a very caring man who is great with kids, and now he's a house-husband while I have my own business to support the family. He was born in the late 50s, and raised by someone who was born in the 1860s while his father spent most of my husband's life in prison. These men were raised with a very "manly man" mentality, which they passed on to my husband. I know a huge part of his personal struggles have been related to the fact that he doesn't fit the society-assigned gender roles, though he is every bit a "manly man" outside of his domestic tendencies. To me, there is absolutely no problem, and I love that he fits into the household so well while I'm working, and I love how the kids glom onto him every chance they get. To him, it's a sign that there's something fundamentally wrong with him, because he's not acting "like a man should act." I'm definitely one for blaming social norms for this, just as I blamed them for my first husband believing that cleaning the house and tending the kid was exclusively my job even while we were both working the same number of hours outside of the house. Perhaps, for some people, this kind of disconnect never really results in thinking that society is wrong, and continually focuses on how "there must be something wrong with me because I'm not what society says I should be."

This whole idea of "feminine" and "masculine" traits seems to just help widen the rift between the genders, and obscure the fact that, after all, we are all just human.


moneycop profile image

moneycop 5 years ago from JABALPUR

how strange things happens in world, here in India we are free from such miracles....excellent topic izettl..


Robwrite profile image

Robwrite 5 years ago from Bay Ridge Brooklyn NY

Hi Izetti; I'm sad that you had to deal with this, especially when you were young. This whole gender switching thing has become so acceptable in our politically correct times that people don't seem to appreciate that there may be an underlying psychological problem with a person who has such tremendous insecurities that he/she wants to become an entirely new person, thinking that it will make their self-loathing going away. It's strange to me that our PC society has put its focus on accepting the desperate decision of an unhappy person, rather than trying to look beneath and to understand why someone hates who they are so much.

A psychological evaluation is always given to people who want these treatments because almost invariably, they have suffered from depression, anxiety, low-self esteem and sometimes addiction and attempted suicide. These unhappy people try to escape from their past lives by means of physical transformation into someone new. It's much like people who get endless plastic surgery. It's all about the insecurities and self-loathing. Psychologically, happy and contented people don't look to surgery for a change in attitude.

I used to work with a guy named Brian. Married guy. As time when on, I noticed more and more eccentric behavior (Like studying withcraft and starting a sex blog) until he divorced his wife. Then he came into work wearing dresses and announced that he was a woman named Brianna. (No surgery, just a wig and female cloths.) I, personally, felt the guy needed a psychologists help and encouraged the company to get him some help. Instead, the human resources department basically threatened everyone in my department that we had to be "accepting and supportive of HER" or we'd be fired. Well, Brian eventually ended up in a mental rest home where he reverted to his male identity. If someone had taken the time to help him with his insecurities instead of being so Politically correct and "accepting" he could have been saved a nightmare experience.

Rob


Amy Becherer profile image

Amy Becherer 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

The only shocking part of this amazing read is hearing you describe your father's confusion. If I understand you correctly, it doesn't sound like he gained everything he'd hoped in the surgical transformation. It sounds like he is still struggling with symbiosis. I don't judge anyone. I am a firm believer in living life, without hurting anyone in the process, the way an individual desires. You were and are directly impacted by witnessing a transformation that most of us only read about. I imagine, like every individual decision, there are variables, but I am confused as to why someone would go through the trauma of surgery if they could come to terms with the duality that are part of every person's life in varying degrees. Do you feel, izettl, that the medical community was encouraging of your father's ultimate decision? I reaize that your dad was determined that this choice was what he wanted, but I would think it had some reservations? Or, no? Please do not feel I am challenging you or anyone, I am sincerely trying to understand. I think it would be horrific to have undergone dramatic surgery to find it was not the "be all, end all" or have any second thoughts.


sexpressions profile image

sexpressions 5 years ago from Wherever my imagination sees fit

I feel that everyone comes from some kind of tough-to-grow-up with situation in their family, but you have defeated something that may have confused us to the end. You are strong, and your writing shows it. Your direct and straight forward manner is inspiring, and the fact that your writes are so personal make us nosey-as-heck readers (it's a human thing) want to read on continuously.

Well done, in everything.


jeanine 5 years ago

Amy , you are right in that every human being has a duality, the difference with gender duality is that it has a heavy dose of OCD... so societies condemnation of gender variant behavior damn them to seek help from a medical community that is bent on changing our sex... the therapist haven't a clue how to deal with men who feel they are women... so instead of telling them they are unique and should pursue the dual life style, they convince us that we need not worry, because we will feel much better when we change sex... so transsexuals are two spirited people that have been convinced that they will be more if they are less... and no late transitioners are ever able to make the jump as far as I'm concerned... young trans are able because they are still young enough to not be so ingrained into the male behaviors, but it's pointless for men who have lived most of their lives as men to change and become more of the woman they have always believed they are...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Silent Reed~ I suspect under the title "Transegenders" or "transsexuals" that many fall into various categories. I believe there are some whom the environment and/or abuse largely influenced their gender thoughts. I believe some are psychologically born as a hermaphrodite is physically born to be as both, some are mentally ill. There are many various reasons and subcategories that fall into the trans.

I do think we are becoming more open as a society and its a mixed blessing- on the one hand its good because people should feel free to be who they are and on the other hand its bad because I think more people are believeing themselves to be something they are not.

Overall, it would have been nice to have some sort of explanation form my parents. My dad may still wrestle with confusing thoughts, but probably nothing compared to the torture he lived as a man.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

wychic~ awesome perspective and insightful thought there about struggling with roles. I went from career woman to stay-at-home mom- I'm still adjusting 4 years later- lol. I am all for women and men taking on some of the opposite sex's roles and traits. I think it benefits our society and I wish it would bring more harmony to everyone to see the sexes weave in and out of each other's roles. But we have to remember, our generation (25-30+) is really the first to start doing this as a norm. Thanks for stopping by.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

moneycop~ thanks so much for your comment- things are different in India.

sexpressions~ thanks for the lovely comment! Yes, I know how reading some of the personal stories can get to one's curiosity, kind of like passing an accident and wanting to know what happened. It is totally normal, but those of us who share this stuff also get a great benefit of writing it out and moving on- sort of like therapy.

Jeanine~ yes, I agree on all this of course you know that. I think my dad struggles so much because he changed late in life, but I know he is happier now than as a man, but could have been happier accepting both and not focusing on surgeries or the outside.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Robwrite~ there is not much dealing with the psychological component of all of this. Trans are told to live a couple years as the opposite sex and go to counseling. However, my dad bypassed all this and went to another country to have his surgeries- many do. None are told to collaborate both male and female tendencies together psychologically. They are told changing their sex is the only thing that will make them happy.

I think its a superficial way of dealing with past trauma- same as "ugly" (insecure) people who believe they need numerous plastic surgeries- just as you pointed out. What a story about the guy you worked with, but I know this happens.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Amy~ I was worried in the way that my dad did the surgeries overseas all at once because he wanted to bypass all the counseling and pre-op living as the opposite gender requirements in the U.S.

I don't think my dad "fell for" any one doctor or medical staff that determined his need for sugery. I think it is fed as a whole to trans in our society, a way of thought that comes from the medical community, that has stated over and over again that trans are better off getting surgery.

There is a big psychological component that is missing. If someone is not OK with their big nose, the medical community would agree that getting surgery would be a good option. However, the psychological aspect is hardly considered and the root of the problem is low self-esteem to begin with. I now that in typical therapy, not many are asked why they want to be another sex. People assume they are that way when they are born- I'm not too sold on that idea for all of them. I don't think the surgery option should be one-sixe-fits-all option.

getting my psych degree, I read in books- the diagnostic manual that typical treatment for trans is getting sugery or at least working toward being the opposite sex so I'm sure doctors are taught the same thing- same lie. We just accept it because its part of the training.Its been fed to the trans community to. If there was one thing that you thought would finally make you happy, you'd do it too.Only problem is it doesn't always make them happy.


jeanine 5 years ago

Many find their way through surgery, I have not gone that route but it doesn't mean that I would not enjoy it, it means my responsibilities to myself as well as my family and career are more important to me right now than the Vera Wang wedding dress, and although the dress is a master piece, I had to come to realize long ago,so am I. The simply statement,"so am I" is a reality that most people never really get to hear or know about themselves. The gender variant child almost never hears it from his or her parents. So begins the tragic walk down the path of transition without anyone to hold them and tell them they are unique and not freaks...Still at this time in my life it's more important to me to achieve the entire life style change...and without massive work on the inside(the brain) there is no need to go and start with the outside. There in lies the reason the medical community suggest changing the outside to fit the inside... it truly is the easiest way to get away from the angst of waking each morning and being startled by the body in which one lives. For all of you as singletons in gender, this part of life doesn't exist, you are sure of who you are when you wake each day. The gender variant child wakes wondering why he or she sees someone else in the mirror and soon becomes enamored with the idea that there are two residing within the one body... add a little ocd and it's off to the races. If the child shows signs early of being more one or the other, then the parents have the opportunity to help. If not the child is viewed as reclusive or to themselves and anti social in their behavioral patterns. In my case my parents love me in a way that I was years into my marriage before I realized I had this glitch. By then I had already established living within myself as two, more like your imaginary friend that you had when you were a child, had become so ingrained in my soul that she grew up with me... I never put her in the closet but never dressed him as her either... I never hated her and he liked the company, she was shy and he was like a big brother, never embarrassing her, well a few times but he didn't do it on purpose... I know that's hard for you to relate to and I am aware that this behavior can and has created some psychosis in me... I think the biggest difference for me is everything is connected, and I have realized all of my male friends seem to have everything in neat boxes or compartments in their lives, where everything in my life is one thread, connected at every turn. My mornings are connected to my evenings, if you know what I mean. Take sex for an example, we all know men have a healthy need for it and it truly makes them who they are, any way, any time, any how, they just want it. Fun when we are all younger, funny to women when we all get older, and yes sometimes annoying to have to service him all the while wondering will he ever grow up...lol... For women sex is important but she longs for the set up to be right, romance is the reason she feels enamored to lay with him, how he makes her feel, what she thinks motivates her, fragrances, touching, holding off to savor each moment as her journey to the precipice slowly builds, she has a definite vision of where the top of the mountain is and is making her way there as he it servicing her needs. How he acts is painted into her picture, the man he is to her, allowing her to walking in gardens of release, where flowers lean into her path as she wakes by, the definite beauty of all that she is and is becoming is accessed to create the the woman she believes she is, making her moments longer she notices every detail of the whole picture. It's the main reason that if she does reach, he her lover is so driven, he doesn't not the picture but can tell she does, so the testosterone drive from him is incorporated into her vision, almost like an all consuming fire, engulfing everything in it's path. When release final comes, he can if the partners are working in tandem, feel almost super natural, the other side of the coin is if, he happens to miss in any area of the painting, her picture can disipate instantly, therefore leading us all to his infamous question... did you get off... lol... leading her into the other part of the thread, where compassion and patience lie... should I lie or hurt him... she never wants to hurt him.. because it's written into her thread and she realizes she will be hurting her self as well... He on the other hand sometimes is so dumb, he hurts her without knowing... I say all of this to let you know, if one gender variant person has both of these thoughts lines going on within them... it can be very confusing... therefore the title gender confusion was born... the medical community is and was so over whelmed by their lack of knowing what to do, that they have begun to try and put it in a corner and leave it alone... maybe would could make him feel better if he saw a woman in the mirror in the morning... which is a good idea on paper, yet because they never actually know that both are going on in the brain, they are doing the gendered child a great disservice. "Here wear this to school no matter whether you like it or not, I'm the mommy" remember your mom saying that, well think if the doctor gave you a vagina and said hey you will wear this and feel better and you do feel better until you realize, you want to go outside and play football with the guys and these boobies are bouncing every where, you haven't grow up with them so they are a new addition, absolutely beautiful in the way they look in the dress, absolutely a pain when running... and one needs to be tackled only once, having ones breast bruised to convince you to never play that game again... that may be to simple of an example, but I have decided if a doctor makes me less to try and help me become more, I think I'll pass for to not play the game is not so hard, because of this little skirt I can wear and may those guys look... oo la la... what is missing and unacceptable is the game of life being with the guys in the game and instead of being the game and waiting for them to come by and want you... understand... it still is a choice for each of us as we go down this path called life... I think my sisters and brothers in the TS community are at the forefront of change and take the abuse for it... myself I am happy to be both, I love the body I live in, I love how he treats me, how he meets me, and protects me from a world that is so afraid of me... so to the question finally, do boobs make you a woman, definitely not, but there are a badge of honor that each of you genetic girls wear, and sometimes I do envy how beautiful there are and would absoliutely love having them... but I could not live with the shame I would be imposing upon my love and my protector that has lent me his body all these years... he is truly a good guy, never making me stay in the closet, never asking me to leave, never wondering why I was here and he baths enough...lol... so I am not so repulsed by his sweaty weird smell when he works outside or works out to keep healthy... he is kind and it was his idea to let you look inside and see how it really is for us as a two spirited individual... I love him and he loves me... I we know how hard that may be for you to see... hope your life is good, I found a way and believe this is a way for many in my tribe that have been convinced that surgery is the only way... but he think different than I do, "for sometimes late at night or early mornings he hold me close whispering I am the only one on earth like me" sweet guy huh... yes he is... I to believe there is not enough time spent on the mental side of transition...


jeanine 5 years ago

Please forgive the typos...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ I read this...intrigued...nodding my head because I know I will never understand completely, but the way you can explain things is with such clarity so how can I not feel like I've just took a trip into your world and see it through your eyes. When you write, I can see things through your eyes so clearly. The compassion you have as a man, the freedom and creativity you grew up as a child with, has allowed you to become a better version of what might have been had you taken any roads that many trans have. Many do not find any peace and just the hope of peace through surgery gets them by.

Much of the unhappiness has to do with society not seeing them as they finally see themselves as a new person after surgery. I see that in my dad. I also see some tinges of mental illness in my dad so I know that there should have been more done from the inside out...some counseling...some reflection on his part, etc. To be honest, I wouldn't wish boobs on anybody- lol. In high school when they started coming in, I hated them because it interfered with my sports, and even now sometimes I wish I could take them on and off at will, just for comfort. How nice it would be to simply take of my shirt when it's hot outside!! But I do understand your point about them being a badge. I understand when women I've known never felt right because theirs were not bigger. Again, it's something to be dealt with on the inside.

My confusion with my dad is he is so strongly male 90% of the time that it is hard to understand where the hell the woman came from! He wants me to continue to call him dad and for my daughter to call him grandpa so I never know when I should apply the female treatment and when the male toward him.


Amy Becherer profile image

Amy Becherer 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

Dear Jeanine,

You are obviously such a thoughtful, intelligent human being that, although what you struggle with is rightfully of great importance to you, it is part what contributes to your brilliance. Thank you for so generously, beautifully sharing your vantage point on this topic. I feel privileged to have been privy to your honesty. You are a beautiful person with a beautiful brain.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Amy~ very well put. Jeanine is wonderful for sharing.It gives us a unique and well-written vantage point.


Amy Becherer profile image

Amy Becherer 5 years ago from St. Louis, MO

And, thank you, izettl, for your brilliant piece from your very personal experience. It is rare to be able to have such a privileged seat.


Jeanine 5 years ago

I agree with Amy, it's you Izetti, I would have never thought about exploring and most profoundly in my own life, would have never thought about writing about two spirited people... I know my tribe is a very old tribe and transsexual are a new fringe group that has appeared in the last 60 or 70 years, it is interesting to me what they have done to their bodies but also no more interesting than those who tattoo the entire body or pierce... I know that sounds harsh but we are who we are, whole and incomplete....

Amy you are very kind to encourage me, thank you Laura for being you and sharing your life with us....


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Amy~ there were so many years when sharing this stuff would have made me feel shameul, as if I'd done something wrong. It sounds silly now and I hope it helps people open up if they need to.

Thank you Amy and Jeanine!!


jeanine 5 years ago

Izetti, thanks so much for your kindness to me, during this past year, I have learned more about what I really believe and through sharing with you have realized how different my path to comfort has been achieved concerning my gendering...lol.. nice word huh... you have knowingly treated me with so much kindness and respect that I have been able to be free in my discussion of how two spirited people actually feel... thanks, such a mature woman in a young womans body... hope you are well...

unfortunately when you say, my dad is 90% male most of the time... where in the hell did this woman come from... the sad part is that's all that's left of her... and probably why he made the decision to transition in the end... he knew she was sick and had loved her for so long... the reason she was sick was him... and he is trying to revive her, when she was young and loved him so... it is so sad, that I weep even as I write this note to you... he never knew pressing her down so far would damage her, but it did and it does, and that's where the mental illness comes from also... to live with two and never express it warps the both of them, she gives up finally and he doesn't know how to get her excited about living anymore...I am blessed in that I have never tried to put her down, and she has always loved me and I have loved her so... many weep over over children who are two spirited that do not make it through... most do not because they are afraid and have pushed themselves down for all of their lives... the 10 percent you see is all that is left of her... but if he can hold up through these next few years maybe she'll make it... the reason you often see me as coming from a place of strength is she is always with me and I need her, she is a massive part of my life, just as all other two spirited people... the problem with transitioning late is by the latter years, both personalities of the two spirit is twisted and warped... now that doesn't mean we can't be happy as women or as men, it means exactly what I said... certain parts of the brain if left in the shame mode becomes twisted.... and the spirit begins to die... if he is a true two spirit, he is male, with a female side that is alive in him... not a fantasy but truly two spirits living in one body... you treat him always as the man except when shopping, cooking, cleaning, and tending to the children, so in your case your treat him as a woman when he is helping you with your child or children...


thougtforce profile image

thougtforce 5 years ago from Sweden

Izettle, I have no experience of this in real life, but I am very interested in gender roles and I often think about how difficult we human makes our life. Sometimes we are so busy to be right as a gender that we forget that what we are first, are humans! All these roles and all these "musts" and how we are supposed to look and behave can be unbridgeable for many people. Much of how we are supposed to be in order to be socially accepted in our gender roles are invented by humans but that doesn't mean that it is human!

This hub is a masterpiece Izettl and it has started so many interesting comments. Thanks for having the courage to write this in the way you did, personal and honest!

Tina


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ i would never understan even a tiny speck of my dad if it weren't for you. You have served a life enriching purpose for me as well. Thank you for explaining about my dad and my misunderstanding of the 90% male comment I had written. It shows you have given this much thought, not just for your situation, but mine as well and I thank you for that. You somehow put it into a perspective or certain analogies (like "her" being sick) that I can relate to. Your last few lines there are great advice- I never thought of it that way. That answers some of my question about when to treat her as male and when to as female.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Tina~ you are so right that we are humans first. I had to learn this lesson through my dad and really my little girl helped me to see it. She is so young that she only sees my dad as a person with a personality; another human. It's always helped me to view my dad this way too.

But it gets tricky because we can say the human thing to do is say gender shouldn't matter so much but it is huge to a transgender or transsexual. It is distinct for them and many (think) they want dearly to be only one.


Jeanine 5 years ago

Hi Izetti, it is a different perspective is all, before there was SRS, my tribe signaled who we were by what we wore, kinda like transvestites do today, the difference being we did and do it in public, so if you look at two spirited people or look at their pics, you see men dressed as women or as both, more both in most cases... the reason you have, so much pain in our community is, we are not women, because we have the operations at our disposal we have crossed some lines that are beneficial, but also detrimental to us as a tribe... most realize after the fact that we are the same, just have replaced some parts that gave us both perspectives... we are men who have an affinity with women... we know quite a lot but are most prominent when we are treated as men and have a real perspective on how women actually feel... the commentary is much more important to the conversation than us trying to teach the concept... understand... that's why I comment here, it is much more important to clarify how you feel than it is for me to try and convince you that I have certain gifts that will allow me to understand.... where we have gone off the road in the trans community is we are drunk with the power to change into women... think about it, if you knew you were a man,or knew you had insight into being a man, and thought it would move you further into being a man with an operation... more than likely you would take that pill and swallow it...lol... granted most of our moves in the last 70 years have been based on ignorance to who we really are... the perfect place for us is where we were in history... men who had respect from the community as a man, but also were respected for what they knew about women... as soon as we take the pill or the operation in this case, we put ourselves at a disadvantage...for we are no longer men and can't be women, fully and wholly... I think we talked about there would be far less full transitions if we as transsexuals had to raise the babies and rear the children... I think Tina touched on the fact that all of us, both genders are trying to be each other... and that's fun to a point... in my tribe because we know a little something about woman... we can convince you we are a woman and need for you to help us, get the operation... understand... it is a vicious circle... what we have to do before all of this comes back to a sane place is, stop being so selfish in wanting to feel how we feel in the womans body.. we already know we will never have the spirit of a woman... we are ignorant and dumb asses...our dads never knew we were stronger, they only saw that we were not meant for toil... well to us that's not a bad thing... yet our own guilt straps us to toil, when we trade in our male bodies for a female shell... I'll ask you... you girls all wear what you call shells, which is a very loose fitting garment that only touches the body at the shoulders and in this article.. across the boobs... the female body touches us as two spirits about the same as those garments touch you... just in a few places really, so by the time we realize that about ourselves, it's to late to tell anyone that we are really someone else and have been all along... tragic in some ways... necessary for my tribe to find its self again... so if I think to long about the last statement I weep openly... for we were great and will be great once more in secrets we hold of these lives we live...


Neil Sperling profile image

Neil Sperling 5 years ago from Port Dover Ontario Canada

Wow - what an enlightening hub and dialogue in comments. Thank you all for the openness. Izetti and Jeanine I thank you both. I have always loved personal growth and trying to understand people... this hub and the comments have added to my insights.

We all have both male and female hormones... the two become one in the flesh is more than just a biblical statement.

Thanks to all who shared themselves so open...


SoleiMarie profile image

SoleiMarie 5 years ago from Los Angeles

Right. Because the essence of a woman is passing through the process of giving birth.


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ thanks so much for adding this perspective...priceless.

Neil~ Glad you got to read this. It's an interesting world out there and I love to explore it all, especially this topic close to my heart. People are fascinating and very misunderstood.

SoleiMarie~ thank you for your comment...that seems very likely about giving birth.


prasetio30 profile image

prasetio30 5 years ago from malang-indonesia

Very inspiring hub. I hope many women in the world read this hub. As a man, I really appreciate your thought about "boobs". Well done, my friend. Cheers....

Prasetio


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

THanks Prasetio- always nice to see you and thank you for reading.


Cheeky Girl profile image

Cheeky Girl 5 years ago from UK and Nerujenia

A great personal and yet thought-provoking hub and I enjoyed this. :)


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks so much Cheeky Girl


Ingenira profile image

Ingenira 5 years ago

That's a really personal hub, izettl. Thought-provoking. Glad that you write it again, and share it with us.

As a matter of fact, I was just thinking about this subject lately. I have seen transsexual men from China, Malay, Thai, American, British etc, but I have not met or read one from India. What could be the reason ?


TaunTastic profile image

TaunTastic 5 years ago from The Mountain State

We all live to find our own happiness and find our happiness in such different ways. If you're dad's happy, good for her. If this is a source of unhappiness for you, take it from your life. What else is there to do?


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks Ingenira. I have no idea why none from India. Yes, I've noticed that too. Very interesting and now I might have to check into that.

Tauntastic~ Not sure if my dad is happy now, hopefully more content. I am happy, but something about my dad and my relationship is not content and it's coming from both of us I'm sure. I have come to terms with things from my past, but would love a better, easier relationship with my dad now.


Jeanine 5 years ago

Ingenira in India, he is much more relaxed and not so binary a system as the rest of the world... two spirited people were and are a separate tribe... transsexuals are only here the last three quarters of a century... we have been here for ages... milliniums to be exact... In india there are 1 million enuchs there at least...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Did not know that...thanks Jeanine.


Jeanine 5 years ago

in reality eunuchs are the tribe we belong to... two spirited is the umbrella and trans are the new model of eunuchs with the bodies of women...there will always be a small faction... when it gets fun its we all realize we really are men... with the power of a womans body... now that will be interesting to say the least... right now all our therapist are on board with asking, telling or making us believe we need to act like women when we get the body to acclimate into society...lol... soon there will be a new trans, she s already here... in the youth... that she knows shes a boy but her kink is to be herself as a woman...those children are the real future...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ As society becomes more open, there will be many kids getting sex changes and I am concerned about that. I guess if you are two-spirited you know from an early age, however, I'm not on board with having sex changes or taking hormones that early in life.


Jeanine 5 years ago

I agree, early is a nightmare... but it's also the only way that part of my tribe will survive... so transition early, means stealth in a different way... watch the movie "Salt" and that's what is happening in my community.... trans are training the young... so one day, know one will know, except us... and at that time, it will become dangerous... for you will have young mens thoughts inside of a beautiful womans body... that's a lot of power... you see it in she males today... and drag queen... men thinking like men... with womens bodies... scary times ahead...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ If a parent recognizes this behavior in a child, the first place they take them to is the doctor, who we all know has the opinion of changing genitals to be one or the other. With this mainstream info out there the kids will never get a chance to see their choices- for them it feels like they have no choice other than change to the oppostie sex. That's why we need our book out there :))


jeanine 5 years ago

There are other choices... I agree... there is enough knowledge to put something together... it does take a unique man or woman to love the two spirited person though... we are not easy, but actually a good bunch when you get to know us...


izettl profile image

izettl 5 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Amen!!


dallas93444 profile image

dallas93444 5 years ago from Bakersfield, CA

You have achieved what you set out to achieve: thought provoking, cut-to-the-chase article!

You career has/does serve you well! Most of us seek careers that as you know, fulfills a need... You have succeeded. Sexuality, or lack of it is an infinite shade of grey. As you know, there is the stereotypes and then the biology of being polorized into a "sex camp."

There seems to be a variety of chemicals, DNA componenets that determnine our shades of sex.

Another stimulating article. Keep shaking our tree of certainity. There is nothing "certain," for this I am certain!


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks dallas! Great words about certainty!


jeanine 4 years ago

Dallas... you are so right about the shades of sexuality... so many flavors... so many places to go... and it would only be right to see all the colors of the rainbow... if one believes in evolution, then it's a natural thing... if one believes in creationism then it would be, look how unique God has made us all... either way we should all be proud that we are different... it shows we are alive.... thanks for your words izetti


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

your welcome Jeanine...any time.


Mary 4 years ago

First English is not my native language , so i am sorry if i use inaccurate expressions or something, i am transsexual woman myself , post operative at the age of 34 , started transition at the age of 29(naver married , nevaer had kids). The fact that you hate your father(or at least that what i feel from freading your 2 articles) or at least hate what you did , makes you do not even try to feel what it is like , it is not simply about "body modification" . i was lucky my self because i born in the late 70s ,but your father was not , when he was young , nothingo was available to help trans people , so it is not "her" fault to do that at the age of 55 , you said that you studied psychology , i will talk about myself , i do not know how i act , i do not attempt to act in a girly way or something , but i walk in the street ,go to public places , have friends , and no body recognize that i am transsexual , i am just lucky because of my genetics , so it is not your "father" dault too , if she is taller than average or has wide shoulders or anything. anyway i do not know what to say exactly , i do not think you will consider the whole issue , since you take it as personal insultation .


Mary 4 years ago

And hust for records , the universal image about women are more tolerante and more comprehensive when talking about different sexual orientation or gender identity is not true , the only difference that women are not physically aggressive , but in many cases where transsexual women were murdered , women were there as instigators .


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mary~ I understand your thoughts on this and I can put myself into the place of a transsexual...to a certain point. My dad did this and it's not that I'm upset about, it's the way it was done. Not talking to me about it, acting like he was superior to me to hide his insecurities. I have questions and he won't answer or even talk to me about it. no matter what the subject is, every child will have some sadness about their parent doing something major and not wanting to talk to their child. He has input about everything in my life and everything I do so why can't I have my own input on his?

It is strange to me to think I would not consider this issue, of course I have. Perhaps my blunt honesty in this article has led you to believe I hate my dad or transsexuals, but that's not the case. I only wanted my dad to include me in his life and many children of transsexuals feel this way (you're lucky you did not have kids). Suddenly our dads are living a new life, new friends and we're not part of it anymore. Suddenly there is a new person and new rules to the relationship.

For instance, my dad is upset and disappointed that I am having a baby boy because he sees his life as a boy was torment.

Because my dad did not want to tell family about his transition, he did not walk me down the isle for my wedding, and has never wanted to meet my husband. So please tell me why this man was involved in my life, met my boyfriends, but after trasition into woman, is not involved.


Mary 4 years ago

You mentioned in another hub that you strugled with the term "Gender Identity disorder" , my point is : you have issues with your father and of course you have the right to write about it and call your father a clown , you are the country of the freedom of speech where every one have the right to insult every one , it is ok too if you have doubts about transsexuality and that your are not conveinced of the whole idea. But you are trying to conveince others that you are writihng from a psychological or scientific point of view , but i am afraid you are not , you are not fair , so it is your personal point of view and of course you have the right to express your personal feelings . I did not marry and never had kids because i knew from the begining what i suppose to do , that was a thing i decided from the begining. i came from oriental country where we have another culture , but sometimes i feel you american people "love" to make your life difficult , sometimes i do not understand , your father is no longer your father now and she knows that , she see and know how people look at her , she hear people comments about her , and she can not do anything to improve her situation, may be she feel shame to meet your husband , may be she knows that meeting your husband will not be a nice situation for you too , before she was in a complete male body and i think she tried her best to be your father , but in some point she said ok , my daughter grow up now i can go for my life , you do not like that but it is the fact (that what i think).


Mary 4 years ago

At the end , i Understand your feelings , i see your point about the way how your father did the transition and how she refused to share her feelings and her insecurities with you .


Rosie 4 years ago

Hello folks...All of the feelings written in these two articles, I can identify with completely. I am a psychotherapist who specializes in sex offender treatment, and the mother of a son who informed me in an email he was transgender, and was seeking reassignment surgery. For three days I was in denial, and then reality hit. This happened in April 2011. Since then nothing in my life is the same. It feels as though my son is committing suicide, and some new person will be in his place. Someone, I don't know, and am not familiar with. Since then I have grieved, suffered from depression, been unable to sleep, and am now on antidepressants. He reports wanting to be a lesbian, when this is over. He has a beautiful wife, and 3 year old daughter. He is 31 years old, and has never given any, and I mean any, indication he was trapped in the wrong body. I was at his house 2 weeks ago and when I left he was still a man, lying on the sofa, farting and scratching his butt, watching football and NASCAR. How is this a woman in a man's body. He has never tried to put on makeup, has never been clean, is not nurturing to his daughter (she hates him, even at 3), has never attempted suicide, or done any of the other things usually associated with those who are reportedly trapped. I have met his therapist, who is gay, how can she be objective in her field, I'll never know, and he has lied to her about his entire past. He told her he always wanted to cook and sew, and I denied him. This is a big lie. I provided paperwork from numerous childhood therapists that indicated he was tested and found to be high functioning Aspergers, but it has been ignored and pushed aside. Because, as a therapist who specializes in deviant sexual behaviors, I questioned the veracity of his choice, he has been hostile towards me. His hostility and lack of concern for my feelings have caused him to write me the most evil, and mean, emails I have ever seen. He calls me names, and attacks me. He has told my daughter-in-law not to speak to me, or let me see my grand-daughter. I thank God, she felt guilty enough to call and attempt to make things work, hence my visit 2 weeks ago, whereby I did not say a word, so I could see my grand-daughter. I am held hostage, and my tongue slashed, so I can speak, lest I lose my grand-daughter too. It is curious to me that the transsexual can have a voice, but no one else can, or reportedly they will commit suicide. His therapist held up her hand and told me to not try to challenge him. I was furious because this is my son, who I raised, and love. Who is she to tell me I can not at least question the veracity of this choice. I am a therapist who deals with children who have sexual problems who act out against others. I have never told a parent they should not question, I respect their love for their child. Just as Amy said in her article, generally you promote acceptance of the self. I agree that a surgical change does not make a woman. And I find it an insult when men transgender or not, portray this exaggerated interpretation of who and what they think a woman is. It reminds me of the old Amos and Andy days when white people attempted to portray their interpretation of blacks, it's just insulting. It is my opinion that the transgender population is abusive to those who do not accept what they are attempting to shove down other people's throats. I am resentful that I have no voice, and am taking this opportunity to express myself openly. Thanks for this opportunity Amy, and thanks for your article, that has assured me, I am not the one that's crazy here.


Mary 4 years ago

"getting my psych degree, I read in books- the diagnostic manual that typical treatment for trans is getting sugery or at least working toward being the opposite sex so I'm sure doctors are taught the same thing- same lie. We just accept it because its part of the training.Its been fed to the trans community to. If there was one thing that you thought would finally make you happy, you'd do it too.Only problem is it doesn't always make them happy."

"I was at his house 2 weeks ago and when I left he was still a man, lying on the sofa, farting and scratching his butt, watching football and NASCAR. How is this a woman in a man's body. He has never tried to put on makeup, has never been clean"

" I do however thinks he is and has been extremely selfish."

"I have met his therapist, who is gay, how can she be objective in her field, I'll never know"

Of course your God , does not make mistakes , he creat women , he creat men and he creat men with some feminine traits and they suppose to be men , Fortunatley my God wants to make mistakes , that is something you people of metallic civilization do not understand .


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mary~ you are right about a lot of what you say. But we all question family or are concerned with big choices. I know many people who would not understand why their father quit a great job. And if he had his reasons, he did not share with the family why he did it. THis is not my circumstance but it is similar in that any major changes that a family member makes and is not the same person nor wants to talk about it, it causes concern for the family that loves that person.

If you read my other hub, my dad knew who he was before he was married but tried to live a normal life and tried to convince me that dressing up as a woman was what all dads did- it was a lie. My mom and I both were lied to. He married my mom on the pretense that he was a man, etc.

I opened up about this because if you read many comments on my hubs, other people have struggled with it too. I do feel poorly about my dad's struggle to fit back into society, but no matter what you think about this topic, there are two sides. I will never see your side, just as you have not seen my side. You constantly comment about what I've done wrong in expressing myself on these hubs.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Rosie~ these are really genuine feelings so raw and I can totally identify with them back when my father changed. My dad is considered a "genius" and many transsexuals are extrememly intelligent- not sure what this has to do with it but I see your point about your son's Asperger's. My dad also has no feeling between us and has written me bad emails too, like I wasn't even his daughter and some other person was saying those things.

" It is curious to me that the transsexual can have a voice, but no one else can, or reportedly they will commit suicide. " Yes, I totally agree. And yes I have a problem with the exaggerated version of being a woman. If you really feel a woman you don't need the dress-up stuff. You are right to doubt because if everybody accepted things then we would make no further advances in this world. I do not accept the traditional route of sex reassignment surgery for people who feel in the wonrg body. I think we don't accept it because we have a background in psychology and we understand the complexities in people. THank you for your comment.

Mary (your last comment)~ these are feelings and doubts expressed. Nothing wrong and only your God or my God can judge, not any of us. We are not judging by expressing our feelings. We have deep concern about a family member we love (and lost).


CMerritt profile image

CMerritt 4 years ago from Pendleton, Indiana

izettl,

Hmmmm, I have thought way too long on how to respond, and nothing at all profound comes to this brain of mine.

I could not imagine having to experience what you have with your dad. My mind cannot comprehind HOW anyone can want to do such a thing.....I know that there are many folks who deal with this everyday...I have learned over the course of years, NOT to judge others, to what goes on in their minds or what possess' them to think the way the do....as long as they are not hurting anyone, which in this case, I find it hard to believe they can't hurt someone that loves them...they are the one's who have to live their own life and deal with all consequences. good or bad.

A very interesting hub....the word Boob always seems to grab my attention...lol


Mary 4 years ago

Izetti- i am trying to understand , read your 3 hubs and the comment of MRs.rosie several times . i am sorry i can not see any "love" in your writings , i see anger,hate and offensive language .My last comment is : We transsexual people(there are trans men by the way, did not see any man here "express" their feeling about how they lost their mother,daughter of a wife) we suffer enough , high rate of suicied ( it is fact ,not reporting ) , high rate of unemployment, discrimination every where in jobs, housing and governmental places ,and we do not enjoy that, we do not love being transsexual, if i had a choice i chooce to exist from the begining.

the only hope we have is the medical system , Harry Binjamin and the WPATH , so please please do not try to destroy it , please if you can not understand would you please leave us alone ?


Jeanine 4 years ago

Rosie... I am so sorry you are going through it right now...if you have read Izetti s hubs about this , then you know some of my thoughts... I am what the world calls trans... but have researched for years and years for my true tribe... which is.. two spirits... trans today all fall under this umbrella... just as eunuchs in the bible, trans are the new version... the medical community has done us a great disservice... read all you can on the true tribe and then help him see it is a gift that he has... the med community want us all to fit into the binary system... we do not... we are men who know certain perspectives that are female... that's why he looks like he is a poor copy... his gift is not being a woman... his gift is understanding both men and women... we were the therapist, and advisers for thousands of years... before Christianity came on the scene, we were known as the keepers of the secrets of God... read without delay... then we can talk... Izettl has given us this forum for knowledge... use it...he is more if he can stay two... he is less if he choose one or the other... the med community wants me to be more by them making me less... I am not either I am both... a man amongst men... a woman amongst women... and yes you have every right to protect your child... most parents are unaware of us as a tribe so they do what the doctor says... why do we have to reassign... is the real question... I think it's because of the power we possess as ourselves... scary to the rest who are only one...


Jeanine 4 years ago

Mary, I am transsexual and I believe the medical community is to blame... most are men who haven't a clue what it's like to live like this, so they seemed to have come to the conclusion that if I am not a man, I must be a woman... what a crock that is... throughout history, cultures all of the world have accepted us as we are... it has only been in the last seventy years that transsexuals have even been around... two spirited people have been here since creation... now if you want to believe that you are a woman... that's fine, but I have studied and lived this life for well over a half century and have found a lot of the trans group bitter and unhappy... I have a family and is the main reason I didn't rush out and change my hardware... now do I wished I could... yes everyday there are times I wished I was all woman or all man but it is not who we are as a tribe.... we were placed here to help the rest of you understand each other... if you look into our lives you'll see the tribes where we were allowed to live as two spirits, there is no word for divorce, we are quite good at what we do... I am not angry with you or any of the trans community... I cannot say the same for the community... they are generally mad with anyone who does not accept the dogma of the binary system... most parents have never heard of two spirits so when they see a child like me, who is very comfortable dressing in either or they run to the therapist, who is also uneducated in matters of my tribe, so they have come up with a solution to a problem that did not exist... I was very lucky in that my parents did not tell me I could not look one way or the other... when I wanted to be a boy and out run the rest I was allowed... if I felt like a girl and dressed the part, I was not punished but simply told I was unique and also very beautiful... as I grew older everyone new I was unique... I never had boys beat me up... nor girls turn me away... I am unique within my own mind so there is no guilt on my part... I have a family who all know I am different... I chose a profession..entertainment so I can dress however I want... I do not hide in your society nor do I profess you should accept my ways... I am who I am and that would be me...lol...is sexual matters I am in love with a woman but easily could and have been in love with a few men in my life.. both are very satisfying to love and both sex have wonderful qualities to fall in love with... your world calls that bisexual and I'm sure when your people mature, they will begin to see bispiritual is not so outrageous, biemotional will not be far behind... if you look in your dictionary neither of those words exist, which if you look in most ancient cultures all three exist... two spirited people have and will be here when you no longer have need for the operation... trans are not wrong just misguided and uneducated... to us transexuals are simply the new eunuchs. You have doctors who will make you look like a woman and hey I think you are beautiful...I understand if you were never able to practice in the light of day how that would twist your perception... how the angst of living without freedom would make one rush to the other side as soon as one could... there are other reasons also why trans change their bodies... they see the coming age of woman taking her rightful place as leaders of the world... so in one respect they want to be first in line... but that is another discussion altogether... hope you are exploring the possibilities that you were made perfect just the way you are...peace and love to you and your families...


shivnandan profile image

shivnandan 4 years ago from Ghaziabad

interesting...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

CMeritt~ yikes, bet you didn't expect this type of hub when you clicked on the enticing title with the word "boob" in it. lol. These situations are ill-handled. Nobody, even counselors, are prepared in any way to help these people and therefore lies are told, mistrust develops, shame, etc and it tears a family up- nobody is at fault, but everyone is effected. THanks for reading.

shivnandan~ thanks for stopping by.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mary~ you are actually proving my point. If these people suffer then why are they pushing their family away? This is happening to "Rosie" above too- her son is pushing her away, taking her grandchild away. When my dad did this he pushed his entire family away. I also believe that many who go through this have underlying mental issues or illness, some have had a past that led them to this, some have not. Many are extrememly intelligent. I'm just saying that a one size fits all approach that is out there by counselors and medical community is wrong. Because they are afraid the person will commit suicide. Someone who would commit suicide needs more help than some surgeries and a sex change.

My dad has told me before that he would not have chose this for himself so I know this is something that pains the person to go through, but there are two sides and you're not acknowledging the hurt the other side goes through too. I am very open about this make no mistake. Nothing get sugar-coated by me and you may find that approach offensive, but it comes from the heart. If I didn't care about my dad, it wouldn't have hurt me. For instance, I am pregnant epxecting a boy and my dad has stated that if I decide to have another baby to abort it if I find out it is a boy. perhaps i am harsh, but look who my dad is. To me, it looks as if my dad is pretending to be a woman- that's what this hub says. He has no idea what it means to be a woman- he sees being a woman as from the outside and not the inside. This is tragic and why not many trans convince me they are a woman because they LOOK like one. my dad dresses gender neutral now and still does everything like a man so I wonder why was it just some body parts that needed to be changed.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ "he is more if he can stay two... he is less if he choose one or the other" this is brilliant. I have gotten to know you and I know for a fact that you embrace both sexes very well and it truly seems to be a gift and an advantage in life. You have also considered your family as a high priority.

A little off the subject, but when i became a mom, my identity was within my position at work- I was career woman. I had to make a choice because my daughter was sick so often as a baby so I gave up my identity for a new one that is seen as lesser (yes, people look down on you when you say you're a stay-at-home-mom). Family also has to be a priority and you have found that balance- it wasn't easy I know, but it started with your parents.

I think the sex reassignment and choosing one or the other is to appease society, in hopes they will finally fit into one category, but afterwards they realize they still don't. Society wants them one or the other so it fits our standards.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ I really like the bi-spiritual and bi-emotional words you used. Very interesting and why they don't exist.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Yes people look down upon you if you are a stay at home mom...lol... hey think if you are a stay at home transsexual... not only do they look down on you for wanting to be a woman, but look down on you because you are even socially lower than the stay at home mom... a fake to the whole world... I don't know how this idea caught on really... we were known as friends and advisers to the kings... now we are the freaks on the springer show... wake up TS, you have been sold a bill of goods...


Mary 4 years ago

"If these people suffer then why are they pushing their family away?"

I wonder why ?

Personaly if i had a daughter or mother wants to take control on my mind telling me what i supposed to do , seeing me as mentally ill , wants to keep me under her female supervision telling me that i can not be a woman because i am not clean(you were talking about the binary system , men are not clean, women are clean), ah i am sorry i am not a woman , i meant telling me that i can not have sex reassignment surgery,oh sorry there is nor reassignment, telling me no to destroy my body , I will make sure to stay hundred thousand kilometer away of her .We do not suicicde because of transsexuality , we suicide because of bad treatment .we suicide because of people , and if my family is not supportive so they are people too ,they are no longer my family , i am not talking about (daughters) i am talking about the rest of my family which in the most of the cases always women (aunts, sisters ,etc.....) . in your case and in Rosie case your father and her son did a fetal mistake in my culture , they never suppose to marry or to have kids . but if i had no wife and no kids i think it is my decision after the age of 30 to take control of my mind .instead of giving my mind to another woman to take control of it , and if i suicide she would say , ah he killed "himself" ok , anyway "he" was mentally ill, at least i have my grandduaghter .

by the way transsexuals exists since long time , only the vaginoplasty is the new thing , in India traditional transgender women(Hijra) for centuries they used to remove completely their genetalia ,a procedure me and many other transsexuals will go for it if there was not a vaginoplasty . it is not about body modification , the goal is not the surgery itself , it is about our self images , we want to look in the mirror and see ourselves , that is why the process of transition is long and it does not work for every one .but we keep trying ,in my case i do not have kids , my parents passed away, i immigrate to another country after the transition, keep calling my sister and we still talking as we always did when we were kids , she does not consider me as another person , it is still me .

I know that i said that the last comment will be the last , but i am mentally ill anyway .no rules with mentally ill people .


Jeanine 4 years ago

Oh Mary, I hope you did not think I am against what you are doing... I'm very proud of you and understand completely that you want a better self imagine.... and if you see yourself as a woman, certainly you should do that... this is just another discussion, other than the normal, TS line of oh I'm a woman trapped in a man's body... I want you to know there are others of us that are just as you are but live in a different part of the experience... I don't feel any less a woman or any more a man than you do... I'm just saying there are great advantages to staying as two, instead of moving to one.... although the one you move to whether that be male ofr female is a wonderful place I'm sure... what I am trying to get to you to see is our community of trans is wider than most of you girls are willing to accept... if I accept you as being trans, can you except that I am just as valid as you girls, with me being two spirited... I guess what I'm trying to say is.... transsexuals seem to be very prejudiced and conservative in their acceptance of what could possibly be.... I am living proof that we exist... I feel just as strongly about my two precious genders as you feel about wanting to be one and throw the other one away... sorry to be so blunt but to me that's what you are doing... there is greatness in being two... and I do hope you will be honest with yourself and take a look at how unique you really are... for me... I could never allow a doctor or anyone else to tell me I needed to be like anyone else on earth... I know I am the gift... I am two... I am in love with you... and I am in love with him.... what most Trans do not understand is they are the most unique humans on earth... then they do the strangest thing on earth... they decide to give up one of themselves... very Christ like in some ways, but very macabre in other ways... for to give up his love he has for me, would be an impossibility for me... he kept me alive by letting me live in him... so I can't keep off the one friend I have known all my life...I am in love with him... I created him just as each of you did, to survive, but then he was created so perfectly,for me that is, that I fell in love with him...and he fell in love with me... he's the one who did not make me stay in the closet, he's the one who was smooth enough for us to never get beat up, he's the one that the girls loved and let me be one with them... I love him although he is my creation, like I said just like every other transsexual in the world...I created an alter ego... the difference is I don't hate him and want to get rid of him... so what happened to me is my question... am I a freak and something went wrong with the transsexual process as we have been taught by therapist and doctors or... am I what transsexuals my become... or what transsexuals are really supposed to be... I know I feel most all of the same things each of you tel me you feel, but I am not willing to hurt my family.... most trans I know say they are going to do it no matter what... how is that not the most selfish thing one might ever do... do you know any woman who would ever hurt her child... I don't know one, not one who would hurt or let any man hurt her child... so I decided I wouldn't let even the man I lived within hurt my children... so no matter how much he wants to be a woman... I'm not going to let him hurt my children... can you follow that... if not read the last few lines again... "the lioness in me will kill any man that tries to hurt my children, including even the man's body I live in... gender is that many layers, so read it, then read it again.... here's my question... what if there are thousands of us who are just like you but are nothing like you, if that were true, then we would have to admit that trans is a much wider road than we have been led to believe by this medical community... that's all I'm saying... I think you have every right to be exactly who you are... but what If this is exactly what I want to be... therefore that's why I say Trans have only been here a short time... and I'm very aware of our sisters in India, and love and respect each of them...open your eyes and see we are here for youas well to tell you that you don't have to do what the medical community and doctors tell you... enjoy your gift for a while before you decide it is not complete... does that make sense to you... I certainly hope so... I am so glad to know you and I hope I haven't offended you in anyway...


jeanine 4 years ago

Every trans has the right to transition, but I read above where you said...."We do not commit suicide because of transsexuality , we commit suicide because of bad treatment and because of people, so if my family is not supportive they are no longer my family".... they BS because they will always be your family, you are their blood and they are yours, so you must not turn our family away even if they turn you away.... and people usually treat me the way I treat them, so if they are treating you harshly, take a real look and see if your transition treated them harshly... understand... I don't think it's the transsexuals fault but some of the things I see my sisters do are frankly stupid...I have one sister who got a boob job before she had finished electrolysis, then wondered why everyone didn't see her as a woman... her beard was as thick as her bush... now that's stupid to me... I have other sisters who decided to transition without even speaking to their wives about it... tell me what kind of love is that... it's stupid... were they just to afraid or was it they didn't give a damn... again if we are woman, why do we act like men... a woman that was going to make a life changing alteration in every ones life that is has been close to, would generally discuss these changes with the one she loves... I know many many trans who just don't give a damn about any of their families, then go on and transition and then whine that their family treats them poorly... do you think simply because you feel this way that you should do it... I believe that is love of oneself over love of one's family... I have considered all the things you have discussed and decided to enjoy being me, instead of trying to change into being some idea I have been taught or have thought I should be...does that make sense... if gender is truly not about sexual orientation, why do I need to change my sex in order to be the gender that I am... that's the question... for if it is simply living our lives as women... one must look at what ones picture of woman truly is... is she submissive to her mate... dos she have to have a coo che for that... I don't think so... to pleasure him does she have to have a cooch for that... no she can pleasure a man or a woman with what she has been given... if she wants to love her children more and be closer to them, does she have to be the woman who birthed them...no... men not women are visual and men are the ones cutting themselves to make themselves look more like the picture of a woman... the picture has something to do with being a woman but it is a very small part of who woman are... when they are younger it is a very big part,but as she ages she matures in her thoughts and learns many many more things about true love that far surpasses any surface beauty that she possesses...again I have no problem with anyone who is not married or without children, transitioning because they are true to themselves... I do however have a major problem with anyone who wants to transition after a wife and children are involved... if they are rich and have provided for their family... I can even understand that... but I see a lot of girls who are just tired of the system it seems and have decided to bail on their families for their own pleasure... to me that is a sin, against their families as well as themselves... also if one cannot pass, why put oneself through the pain... to sadistic for me... It says in the Bible to be long suffering... not long for suffering... lol... I'm sure you are a good person and you have to certainly find your own way... I'm just saying that why not be wise in our choices... why do I need to look like a woman to be one... if you were blind and I took care of you and loved you and nourished you as the woman I am... say you even fell in love with me and the way I loved you... would it matter if I looked like a woman or if I acted like a woman... for me it's the latter... the package doesn't make me a woman... the woman in me makes me one... plus I love love living in a mans body... there are a lot of advantages he has I could never even dream of... the pay is much better than If I were a Genetic Girl... both women and men are attracted to me... I have been able to sire children just like a famous race horse...lol... I am known as a protector to many... mostly my family... and I don't have to find a male to admire his body... I have one I live in... He is always at my command and does whatever I ask for him... and I know as a woman that's what all of us want... a man to hold me... and man to tell me it's going to be alright.. one to tell me I am beautiful and he wants me constantly.... now tell me, why would I ever want to give that up... I am unique from most of my trans sisters in one way because I do not hate what I was given... I discovered long ago as a child I was woman... where I think most of my sister all speak of knowing they were different or something was wrong... and although I knew I was different, I never thought anything was wrong...lol... I love being me, I love having a male at my beckon call... I live that he loves me for creating him and respects me for being his when he wants me... remember God gifted you just as you are... and if you choose to throw some of it away, then so be it... but if you do throw some of yourself away... try not to complain when you realize you needed him all along... I guess that's what's different for me... I don't have one emotion or feeling or desire that I want to give up... I love them all and will cherish them until I go to be the bride with my creator... yes most of transsexuals thoughts are based on the call of God on ours lives... we will be the bride in heaven and we all speak of that... most of us have such a desire for Him(God) that we all want to change into the bride hereon earth...be patient my friend, even if you do not need your male side here on earth... who are we to say that we will not need him or what we have learned from being captured in his body, in the next world... love and grace to you all... look closely at how perfectly made you are... try and change in the spirit before you change the body... for if I change the body before I change my spirit... I may become angry and unsettled... peace to you my beautiful sisters and peace to you my beautiful brothers... we are two who are one ... the rest of the world wants what we already have... when they marry they have even included it in their marriage vows... "and the two shall be as one"... do not give up your birth right as two spirited people... this world is a strange place and we are strangers in a strange land... but oh such a beautiful land it is...


Mary 4 years ago

Jeanine- ............................. Amen !


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mary~ Here's the deal...if I don't get out my felings on this, where else do I go? I need a place in this world to...just as you do. I gave all my support, smiles, and 3 cheers to my dad about his change because trans are supposedly fragile. He NEVER had a notion of me being not supportive. NEVER. I kept it all inside. You may think I had no right to be hurt, but I was hurt about the lies I was told as a child. But my father would never listen to my hurt, it was about him and his transition. I cried to myself, not to him, I kept it all inside just as a transsexual has to keep their true self inside for years sometimes. You and me not so different in the face of hiding our true colors. My writing has given me an avenue to express those feelings i never could with my dad or friends and family. I hurt inside while my dad got to be who he really was and I hid all my thoughts from him. I sacrficed myself and my felings to be 100% supportive of his change so please don't tell me i was controlling or any of the other nasty things you've said to me. Everything you read in my writing was not shared with my dad. It was shared to strangers because I had no one else to talk to and discuss this with.

So again I ask why would my dad push me away when I showed no inkling whatsoever of being non-supportive.

Did you not read the part about how I am pregnant with a boy and he said if that ever happened again that I should abort it?

My dad does have obsessive compulsive disorder- he was even diagnosed with that. Which means it is his way or no way on everything even things in my own life. I would also add narcissistic personality disorder to that. So me controlling...other way around.

My wish for trans is that they realize the family hurts also, it is not just them.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Easy baby girl... your hormones are going crazy right now.... you don't need to be getting upset...Mary you need to know this is the big leagues so be careful also... there are troops standing here to the side and out of respect to Izettl we haven't jumped you yet... so you don't have to be ugly to be here... you are more than welcome but remember this is an equal opportunity hub so please... read carefully and know there are noy many stupid people here... now that being said you can share all you like, but cannot make it personal... I hope you understand you are welcome but please know we are all paying attention...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine (and Mary)~ I understand that transitioning is tough and living for changing is agonizing. I know that there is that side of things. THe stuff I write is from the family's point of view and sadly not many trans take time to realize other people suffer as well. A trans thikns how can my family not see I am suffering and believe we are the ones who are selfish, but in my experience not many of the family even knew or did the trans even share any of their thoughts.

Not at all saying they shouldn't change, but to keep the ones closest in the dark about it is wrong, to lie about it helps no one. To not know or explore all the options (change or not change or somewhere in between) is a pity. In a society where men do women's jobs and women have masculine traits, I don't think there is a male or female- one way or no way.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Izetti, I think that's right about the secrecy of the change... there is so much shame in our community that we have forgotten how to be honest with ourselves. If one has lied to oneself for so many years it's easy to overlook the lies that we tell our families... even in my own case and you know how open and how unique mine has been... I lied to my wife without really knowing I was keeping certain parts of my life from her....to you and almost all singletons in the spirit we were lying,, but to us it really has been about survival... most trans have fought long and hard to just stay alive... so by the time we decide to transition, there is only one exist and like cattle to the slaughter we are pushed by the OCD toward the operating tables....instead of running towards the gate ourselves the woman that is dying...literally inside of us is on a collision course with almost all reasonable thought... and in this part of our lives, the mental fortitude is or has already broken down... we are not thinking straight any longer and the thought process has deviated to the unnatural... although it is natual to each of us... because there is the presence of two for all of our lives, we do not see that it is unreasonable to everyone else... I say all of this not to defend the secrecy but to tell you why it exist.... she has been so afraid for all of her life that it's like seeing the light at the end of a giant tunnel where the monsters have been chasing you for all of your life... now that she has finally convinced him to transition, she is running scared toward it... afraid he will turn her down again like he has so many times in her life... this very reason is what is different about my situation... I didn't dislike my guy that I have lived in because he didn't hurt me... understand... it's also the primary reason each of them want to kill their guy part off... they are afraid he will return and make them go back into the closet and well... you can see... she has been a prisoner all of her life... prison is not a good place to live... one hasn't a clue how to be reasonable after this many years of abuse...


jeanine 4 years ago

She no longer has a handle on reality because he has never let her be at the forefront of anything... when we are younger and create our own alter egos in order to stay alive... she never expects for one moment that he will take over their life and make her stay in the closet... and when he does she is helpless to do anything about it... it's like each of us create our own frankinstein... since there is not parental guidance when we are young... the boy she created abuses the hell out of her... he not only teases her but because she is shy, he eventually takes on the role of being her creator... which is totally backwards... just like all boys he wants to control, so he does... without the parents interceding here... life becomes tragic...so begins the years of hiding... she loves the boy she invented just as I did... the difference is for some reason my boy didn't develop like the others... he didn't take advantage of me... like so many other trans girls I know... part of it was my folks were there for me, the other part is I never considered I was one but always was two... so because the parents let me grow, he never got the upper hand on me... I did and have always looked at him as someone I created... in order to deal with this body I had been given... I do know the frustration that trans have always had to face, but have dealt with it in a variety of different ways... whenever I came to a stumbling block, I was able through my parents to create a different door I might go through, so as a child that positive encouragement became a game that would allow me to breath... therefore I naturally was able to keep him in check... does that make sense... also as we grew older because we were two... he never seemed to try and over take me... it's why I love him so... he is very strong and is my protector, and that's what I needed and why I created him... I don't really know why I was so sure I had created him and he had not created me at such an early age, but I knew it... I hear my sisters talk about they knew they were different at a very early age... I knew I was different but also knew who I was, so I didn't wonder why I was girl trapped in a boys body... I never felt trapped, I just thought this is what I am... never realizing until years later that everyone wasn't like me... by then I didn't care, what they all thought, I didn't need their acceptance, I had my parents and my sister and myself to tell me I was fine, so who were the others and why would I ever believe something any of them said... I am convinced transgender angst is promoted mainly at an early age by unloving and uncreative parenting... I was married and had kids before I actually understood that what I had was frowned upon by some and by then I was involved with the most sexually being on earth... my wife... who had seduced me and was the first woman I had ever known intimately... I did what was natural in my first encounter with intimacy and went down on her... the intercourse was an after thought... and what a great thing that was... I understood immediately that he had qualities... the body I had lived in all of my life had an instrument of pleasure attacked between my legs and I loved him for it... believe or not... I had sex before I had ever masturbated once in my life... I had had accidents in my dreams but was so in the dark that I didn't put the two together... now I did make up for lost time after that night, but was also forever attached at the hip to this wonderful creature who would become my wife... oral sex was and is a major part of my life... although I am always the giver and very rarely the receiver... and that is actually more natural for me... after I learned what a wonderful tool this body I lived in had... I was elated although there was a terrible angst when she went down on me... I was sure her razor teeth would hurt me and damage the gift that I didn't know I had... I never got over that part and still am not very comfortable in that position...thank God she doesn't want that very often... lol...lol strange comment I know... but a real one... I am much more consumed by her holding me and caressing my body in other ways... I say all of this to say, I am finally making it to the title of your hub... Just because you have boobs, doesn't make you a woman.... and from my view just because I don't have boobs doesn't make me a man... I am and will always be very much a woman inside... now that doesn't mean I'm a dumb blond... because as a smart woman I realized that living in a mans body, I have had an amazing life, I have been paid much more than if I had the body of a woman at what I do, I have been protected by this gift of a mans body that I have lived in all my life and I absolutely love having his tool...lol... at my disposal... it's much stronger and more sensitive than a strap on... whenever she needs it... and just like all girls... when I found out what it did after I laid down with my wife... I was in awe of how it worked... I know these thoughts are hard ... no pun intended...lol... to beleive but they did actually happen...lol... I really was a virgin, not only in body but also in emotions and mentally... some might see that as a little behind... but to be honest with you... since hormones my behind is round and quite nice... thank you... lol... hope this lets you in a on a little different take of what means to be a boob... oh my I mean to have boobs... no that's not it at all... I mean to have boobs doesn't mean you are a woman... or from my perspective.. just because you have a tool... doesn't mean you are a guy either...lol...lol...lol


Wesman Todd Shaw profile image

Wesman Todd Shaw 4 years ago from Kaufman, Texas

Amazing hub!

On facebook recently I was sort of attacked as a "bigot" for insisting that this man who'd had boobs installed (while still having his "package") was, in fact, a man.

Folks called me a "bigot" for not accepting that this person was a "woman."

I'm sorry - the person still had the male genatalia, and even if he didn't, I'd still insist that he was a man.


Hub Reader 4 years ago

Not meaning to offend anybody but when I read the following, I think it's a near perfect description of 'Jeanine'

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity."

You're in love with yourself, and it shows. Your writing is all about you; your 'special' gift of being a man (nothing special about that), your magnificient and almight body and especialy your so called 'tool', lol. I think you have a very limited knowledge of gender issues. All your posts lack substance and are certainly not authorative by any means. To gain the little knowledge you have in this subject area would probably take under an hour to accomplish by going to a library and browsing a few books. You make many references to TG and TS as "us" and "we" but when you make a point against any TG/TS men or women, suddenly it's all 'you' and 'them', exactly as one would do to distance themselves from the scum because you're so much better, aren't you? You're quite chauvinistic - "Easy baby girl" and many other instances too. You are so very condescending, "Mary you need to know this is the big leagues so be careful also". Who are you? And why do you refer to any of this as being in the 'big' leagues? Are you referring to these hub pages? If so, nothing could be any further from the truth because the majority of hub pages are written by people who know next to nothing about the topics they choose to write about.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Wesman Todd Shaw~ I completely understand your thoughts and would actually agree to a certain point. There's just so much grey area. Most want their outsides to match the insides so society will recognize them as such and when they're half/half like what you described, it's hard for any of us to recognize them as what they "want" to be instead of what they physically are.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Hub Reader~ Interesting comment. You are right on some aspects. Trans are often preoccupied with themselves and most consider them a "unique" or "exclusive" group. From my point of view I can't truly understand it because I am not one so I can't come to as many conclusions as you have. Many, like my dad, turn inward and become what looks to most of us like selfishness, but it's somehow out of necessity. They live on our world but really haven't found their place yet. There is also some obsession and OCD tendencies, as Jeanine has admitted in comments, and my dad displays evenbefore his change.

The parts I can't agree with you is that the comments lack substance- Jeanine writes music and many of her comments are lyrical, if you can get into that, it's nice. And... she taught me how to understand my dad much more than I did before writing some of these types of hubs. I think some of those quoted phrases are along the lines of teasing and some people don't get it. It's all fun and play in that aspect. It's a serious topic for most so I can see where that would be misunderstood.

It's true we can gain knowledge into this area with a few books...probably, but we woud have no insight. "jeanine" on here is a true expression of trans community. Many are like this so it is a wonderful representation that a book would not give us.


jeanine 4 years ago

ouch... Maybe I deserved that... maybe I didn't... the fact is I have been diagnosed with gender variant behavior... and I hope you know it took me about 5 therapist before I would look as if they might be right to some extent about some of it...and you are right in that I am confident in myself... I'm sure you may be right that my own psychosis could be a big part of my discussion... I am different than you in that I don't need your opinion to validate what I believe has happened to me... as far as being shallow... I'm as guilty as the next... I had rather laugh than cry and say oh me... what am I going to do... Izettl knows more than we do because she has lived her part of this with her father... I know more about what has happened to me than any other person on earth... I am sure of that... as far as this being a tribe of greatness, there are very few trans that have ever argued with that... are you trans... and if so... I hope it is treating you well... my opinion is later transitions don't go so well for "Us" or let me say "me", I don't like the idea of me having to hurt the people I have loved all my life just to get a non...tool as I think you referred that I referred to... what do you call your's... winky or pee pee..lol... where ever little boys do...I'm sure you are confident with your woman right... and just because you don't see a wimp where you would rather see one...many peoples picture of trans... doesn't mean I can't be myself... I don't have to be the pic that you paint of my tribe or of my disorder... I am not a girl or a woman... I am a man... who knows women from a trans veiw, that's

all...

I do take a slight offense in that you have not told me your own gender... if you are a male then I can forgive you... for you are on your way out anyway... man's days are numbered... I don't care if you believe it or not... when enough of us have told them how unique they are, then they will begin to believe it, then you can do what ever they tell you... she's already telling you behind closed doors... right... "hurt is an old gun... try not to use it on anyone... old guns are known for their instability... and often backfire" ....

Now if you are a man, let me apologize and say how beautiful I think you really are... I would just do anything for you sweet... because I just can't think straight when you take your shirt off and you have been outside sweating and working so hard... and I did notice how you brought, what was it you say..."Tool"... I'm sure if we can find the right girl for you, you be pleased...lol... hey seriously though... you a right to your opinion and I think you know as much as anyone on this disorder... God knows if you ask any of..."oops" I almost said if you ask any of us... but if you ask any trans if they know why it happened ... not one will tell you they know why... so live and let live... you may be a genius and have just solved the whole damn thing sweet heart... and if you did... my hat is off to you and I will kneel at your feet, you wonderful blessed my hero of a man...lol...lol... sorry life really is a bitch for some of us...


jeanine 4 years ago

Hub reader, I also sat with the head of the John Hopkins project years ago as they were closing the project... I asked him why... He said "that we(Doctors) are clueless when it comes to transgender... they were the first to operate and the first to stop their program... now see if you can find that info on the web, or in twenty minute like you said... I'm probably older than you, so you FYI, Ive had to deal with much larger asses than you... I hate that you had to try and make me feel bad to make yourself more important... I don't care if you believe like I do... I'm just saying what if... there are other men like me... that love there families more than themselves... wouldn't that be a better world for you and I... if I am like you say... trying to make myself more important in my own eyes... is that such a bad thing to try and be... this disorder or gift or whatever you want to call it, destroys families... I just don't want that for my family and in trying to deal with it, stumbled upon "two spirited people"... look it up, it's not like I made it up... wouldn't you rather deal with someone who liked themselves instead of someone who didn't, is all I'm saying... we all have something... trans are just unafraid to let you see them as they want to be... we all hide something, what does one like yourself who is so righteous hide... hope you are feeling better today...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ I don't think even I can understand and neither can "hub reader" but the difference is I want to understand to the best of my ability- I have stock/big investment riding on this (my dad), but I don't think hub reader understands and that's when people lash out. Fact is, the trans I know have many of the traits or tendencies that you have displayed in your comments. It is wonderful insight and has helped me. Perhaps hub reader doesn't need to understand and that's ok but the hurt and lashing out is unnecessary.


susan54 profile image

susan54 4 years ago

izetti, Vote up! That is an amazing story. I could not even think if my dad had a sex change. I feel for you every girl needs their dad, people are who they are but sometimes the ones around them get hurt more by changing. Good luck to you.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Izetti, hope you are well... hey I thought about what Hub reader said and some of it has to be true...it's hurtful but hey it is what it is... I'm really here to know about how to advoid putting my children through the pain that you have described... HR may be right in that I may because of how freed up your site are... I may have over stayed my welcome and if I have been smothering you with my comments... I am truly sorry...I will try and noy monopolize the conversation...I just what to be the best I can be so you have helped me face some of this, specially about the children of trans... you know I love all of your writings... not just the gender stuff...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Susan~ I can't blame trans parents for needing to change, it's just hard on the families- no way around it. It's been about 10 yrs since my dad changed and I've accepted him as her, but of course I still have questions unanswered and my dad isn't the dad I had growing up, but I guess I'm not necessarily that little girl anymore. THanks so much for stopping by.


Pringles3030 4 years ago

Izettl

I just wanted to say how much your hub has helped me.

My father had been a cross dreaser from his teens. I have know from 6 or 7.

3 yr. ago he sent me a letter telling me his decision to be a woman full time.

In this letter he hoped that I could understand. He wanted me to welcome him as

her into my home. My wife and kids new him as grandpa. His thoughts on my children were that they are young (9&11) and could probably acept it beter than me. (His total reasoning sounded like brain washing to me)

He had my mother deliver the letter along with one from her that suported his decition. (Never mind she had devorced him 5 yr. Before at least partly because of his cross dressing)

Like you it was quite a blow and I was very angry.

Up until today any time I did a search on the subject and I mostly found

TG's telling me I have a problem and should be more accepting. Sounding very much like my dad. Some of the language sounded like he cut and pasted from the website to his letter.

I am so thankfull for you're page

I also would like to thank Jeanine

I apteciate your spirit and tone. You help me to undetstand what may be going on in my fathers head. I want to say that although hubreader may have had some points to think about, his tone and attacks did not sit well with me. I hope you don't leave. Please don't. I realy apriciate your insight. Like you I have what society would tag as feminine qualitys. I am ok with them and think they make me a more well rounded man. I don't split them into two distinct halves, but I am not you and thats ok.

Thank you all


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi P... I want leave , just have been busy... and most men do have an fem side, just some of are actually two spirited... which the world calls trans... I am so happy that we have been a help to you, in this struggle, because it is a struggle... most of my tribe have had to fight to stay alive and it is a very sad moment to hear what hubreader had said... but alas... he is not me and nor do I know what he has had to face in his life,so maybe he was just having a bad day... we don't protect men as much as we should when it comes to their emotions,so if he is like many other men, it was very hard for him to say anything really...I am very glad you have faced your own feminine side... most trans that I know, had a bad experience when they were younger so they went into hiding at that time... so your dad is suffering from massive trauma that comes from the hiding... I don't really think any man would transition fully if he had not been hiding for most of his life... the OCD coupled with this gift, reacts in a strange way if it is not freely expressed... like a bird that knows it's can sing... if you make it be quiet then after a while, it either dies from a broken heart or realizes that it is dying so it takes the chance and tries to break out... after each of no song... it really doesn't know how to sing any more, but the vision of when it could sing is so prevalent that it makes the effort... so that's where a lot of my trans friends are... we are all caught between where we are and where we want to be... most men and women have these traits... the difference with this gift is... because we do not see our real selves looking back from the mirror, we often get caught in trying to fix that first... when in reality, we shouldn't try to fix the physical before we look at the mind... once we look at the mind it's obvious there is nothing wrong with us... and that's my point of contention....the medical community has decided something is wrong with us... and that's just not true...well... maybe a little...lol...


Pringles3030 4 years ago

Janine

You are definitely write about the trauma. He had a very bad cleft pallet and an overbearing mother. I think he had his last surgery in high-school. Whatever happened between my grandmother and my father left him with extreme anger towards her to this day. I don't claim to understand why, but I am sure this early turmoil in his life was what started my dad down this life long road.

I have never put OCD as part of the problem. I can see how it would be exsponetialy more difficult to deal with because of that.

Thanks

Pringles


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi P, the OCD is a factor in that the confusion becomes the focus... the why... is this happening finally gives way to.... how do I get away from it...finally you give in to what the therapist says and begin to think there is no way out except to change parts... and I must admit that the "shiny vaginee" is very tempting..lol... but then I found the info on "two spirited people"... I realized they have been a tribe with these same symptums as all trans have except they delt with it differently... their handling it carried them to be in the presence of Kings and queens all over the world...


AnotherTwoSpirit 4 years ago

I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts and feelings, as another person trying to come to terms with transsexualism. Sorry if me saying 'I' a lot offends anyone its not because I'm being selfish, I can only write about my own experiences and struggle and its effects on people around me. After 39 years of life, 12 years of marriage and the birth of the person that means the most to me in the entire universe, I reached a point about 1 1/2 years ago where I could no longer repress how I was feeling and I had a breakdown. I had to seek help, if I hadn't I'm 100% sure I would no longer be here. Every week for the past 1 1/2 years, I've been seeing a psychologist to try and work through the mess that repressing things for all those years has left in my head. A number of times over that period I've needed the psych or relied on my new found transgender friends and allies just to keep me alive

See, I always thought, partly because my parents made me think that everybody had the same issues and that being transgender or homosexual (different things I know) were a choice; people like that are weak and shouldn't give in...right? So ever since I was a child, I repressed everything and "chose" (lolz....did that ever come back to bite my *ss) to be cisgender and hetrosexual. This was always a struggle for me especially when I had other stresses in my life. I'm not sure if anyone reading this who hasn't experienced the same thing will understand how much hurt, fear, self-hate, pain and shame one can accumulate over a lifetime of doing this to yourself. I developed dysfunctional coping strategies to help me manage it all, you won't believe the amount of effort it takes; somehow you have to let the pressure out when you can....alchohol, drugs anything that would numb my thoughts and turn off my brain. When it overflowed, when I was having a stressful time, I would crossdress to let off the steam. Denying who you are as a person, devaluing yourself to the point where you can ignore what you are doing and lie to yourself....I didn't do that for myself, I probably did it for my parents at first and then for the other people that I met whilst growing up and making sense of the world. Then I carried on doing it because I thought all the people around me would reject me. I always tried so hard to be the boy/man I thought other people would want me to be. Its difficult for me even now to see any value in being me, I have no sense of self worth, I have problems with intimacy because I've always been hiding, scared of people "finding out" what's really in my head, I get serious anxiety attacks, I hardly have any self-esteem, I go through periods of dark suicidal depression, although I'm getting better slowly, because slowly I'm accepting who I am and starting to love myself; something I've never experienced. But isn't marriage to a beautiful person that you love deeply, having a daughter who is the most important thing in my world, having a great education, career, home...isn't that enough to make me happy and fulfilled in my life even though I might be gender variant?. I've asked myself that question so many times. I thought that it was possible for it be, when I was going through my life denying how I felt - look where it got me. I want it to be, so much, but I don't have that choice, because as much as I carry on trying to repress things so that things stay the same, my dysfunctional behaviour and dysphoria about my gender increase. Many days I can't communicate or interact in a normal way with other people, its hard if not impossible to do my job, have a relationship with my daughter or wife and maintain a normal life. Then there's the really dark times, when getting out of bed and getting to the end of the day is a struggle for survival in itself. Where would my daughter be then if I really didn't exist anymore with the trauma that I would cause to everyone around me? Yeah thats selfish, but when you feel that bad and you want it all to end, you aren't thinking about anything other than escaping the pain..

Reasonable adults might ask, "Why should an innocent child have to *chose* to hide who they are from everyone else? How much trauma might that cause someone if they did that all their lives? Is it really possible to ignore who you are and be okay at the end of it? (Do you know what the suicide rate is amongst transgender people?), What would It be like and what sort of psychological state would I be in, if I had to bury my sexuality or the fact that I felt like I wasn't the correct gender all of my life" - If you are cisgender and heterosexual try imagining what it would be like pretending to everyone and yourself all your life, that you are Homosexual or the opposite gender to the one you were assigned at birth. Everyone you ever came into contact with thinks that you are Homosexual or the opposite gender despite how you feel.

The same person could also reasonably go on to ask "Why should a child have to lose the person that she's always known as her father or mother?, How could someone lie about there real feelings to the people that they love and care for?, Why does someone not have the sense of duty - after lying for so long and misleading everyone - to do whats best for the people in the situation that they've partly created?"

Its all a tragedy, no child should have to grow up in either situation, the first childs trauma and experiences don't cancel out the latter's trauma and experiences or vice versa, the latter doesn't cancel the former. The really serious tragedy...crime even (no I don't think that's too string a word), is that we live in a world where this situation is allowed to arise in the first place. When we talk about trans peoples looks, how they act, how they changed if they transitioned...it seems we forget that a very large number of trans people know there is something wrong from a very early age, this is not noticed, acknowledged or even at worst denied by people (usually adults) around them, if people weren't mis-gendered for such a long time this situation wouldn't arise. I also think a lot of cisgendered people would be surprised at how many trans people they come into contact with that they don't recognise as transgender because they pass so well (Yes...believe me...there are plenty of people that pass that well). If a cisgender man and a transgender man both pass equally well as a male, how would you be able to tell whether they were really male, outside of them relating their own personal experience, or your knowledge that they were assigned female gender at birth?

I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, I just wondered if it would help adding more transgender experiences to your discussion.

Vanessa


Jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Vanessa... actually we all need your comments and I do as well... I am so sorry you are fighting still... but it is part of the healing... one of the reasons I am so interested in "two spirited" people is that they embraced their gender variance with honor and grace... and because of that were held in high esteem.... the one thing that all of us seem to be laking is that esteem... I am slightly different in that my parents never made this a big deal... I am in the arts so dressing as me is and has been for years a pretty common thing... in public... because I am both spirits living in one body, I am free to lean either way... I know how blessed I am to be able to do this... and I also know that is has helped me keep my sanity... I will keep you in my prayers and please do the same for me...it will get better so lose the suicide thoughts... thats foolish... you can become who you want so be patient with yourself...I never heard of transgender until late in my life and by then I had lived a very long time as a man... so my thoughts or if I have lived this long as a man and have never had the opportunity to live as a woman except as living in this man... I have been able to put away some of the things that bothered me most....because of an understanding family I haven't wore one gender specify clothing in forty years... I am a woman who lives in a man's body... and take advantage of it everyday... the pay is better than if I were a GG and I am in love with a woman so there are some advantages to having the equipment that she might want, instead of strapping it on...although after hormones.. that relic is more symbolic...lol...but does remind me of a life when I was wild and crazy... and well you get the picture... please continue to tell your story... you are always welcome here...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

THank you Pringles for stopping by and commenting. I needed to hear everybody's input and comments and that's why I write about this topic. It's helps me as much as it helps you or anyone else. THanks again. Please feel free to add any other thoughts at any time.


michelle 4 years ago

what native children you are, appearently you all no nothing about what it is really like to be transsexual.You say we are selfish and self centered, well girls let me tell you this is much harder on us then you kids, leaving my wife and child was the most traumitic thing I ever had to do.I do not think you all have read any of the biological research that supports that for us this in not a choice are only other alternative is death. When I lost my family over this due to thier nownevious, it tore me up inside so much, that I had a nervous breakdown. Do you think this was fun for us.Like the rest of you my daughter feel the same way, ingorance and idiorocoty have brought you all to this point. Listen girls I think it 9s time that you all grew up, and faced reality and stop playing the blame game, and learn to come to the realization that things happen that are beyhond your control. Do you know how much we hurt within inside from haveing to give you up, just be glad that you were not afficlted this way from birth.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

michelle~ leaving your family was not the hardest thing you ever had to do because you did it. The reality is living as a man was the hardest thing you had to do. I'm a bilogical woman and I'll tell you the hardest thing I could never do is leave my two kids or do anything to purposefully jeopardize my relationship for them.

Many trans don't get my message. That is...it's not that you or any other father (mother maybe) gets a sex change, it's usually that there are many lies involved, secrets kept from us kids, betrayal and lashing out if you are not accepted by your children. It's not the sex change, it's the way it occurs. My dad led a secret life and never mentioned a sex change until months after he got one when i was supposed to visit him and he wasn't even going to tell me before I got there. I know many kids of trans that this sectretiveness has happened to.

The fact that you say grow up, blah blah blah to the kids well grow up to the more grown-ups than us (our parents). Face the facts that we do feel hurt and we're allowed. If you felt hurt leaving your family how do you think the kids feel having been left. A rape vicitim has had something happen to them beyond their control and would you ever say "grow up and fact the reality that things happen beyond your control". I know you trans hurt if you've had to leave a family, I just don't even know why you start families, lying to those you love. It isn't harder on you than it is the kids. It is much easier in any relationship to leave than to be left. Come on...you know that. Kids always blame things on themselves, even a simple divorce, kids internalize. But thanks for your input.


jeanine 4 years ago

Michelle... I am transsexual... or that's what the five therapist that I have gone to say... I have been this way most of my life but have a different take on what has happened to us... I was very protected as a child and my parents made no big deal of it... when was me I was me... sometimes the boy sometimes the girl...I am in the entertainment feel and have been all my life so I have dressed pretty much how I wanted too all my life... Because I was brought up as this was a gift instead of a curse... I don't hate my male body... he's more like my imaginary friend that is real... I am two spirited.... two spirits living as one... because i didn't know what transsexuals are and were according to the medical community... I had married and had children before some one finally diagnosed this gift in me... I went to many different therapist in hopes of a different result... unfortunately or fortunately for me... I did not find one therapist that disagreed... I have gone to group for years now and have a lot of the same angst everyday that you display and most of my T friends display... as I continued to listen and search for someway out without hurting the family I love so dearly... I listened to most of my TS friends talk about how hurt there were about how their families had acted... each one always returning to medical communities matra that transition was the only way we can ever be happy... I have spent years with some of my friends and they are still not happy... and most are so beautiful inside and out... I continued to search the web and go to any place I could to find any relief... I found two spirits on the web and after some years of reserch am convinced we have been sold a bill of goods by the medical community... there is a lack of education in the medical community of our history... if you read you will see it's the only time in history that TS were revered for being the way we are... before the medical community helped us we were advisers to Kings and leader all over the world... since they have helped us, we are the pride of the Jerry Springer Show... here's my own assessment ... "if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as you do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in"... please educate as many as you can.. read your own history... I do understand what you did was unavoidable for you... what I am saying is... what if all of our parents had handled us differently... and this was looked upon as a gift instead of a curse by them... it's not their fault that our history has been erased by the Christians... yes I am Christian and fell in love with the Christian God... but before they came we were , the spiritual leaders and healers in almost every tribe on earth... read it... it's there... known in some tribes as the keepers of the secrets of God... now here's my question to you... because you are part of my tribe and I love the gifts you have been given... look deep in your heart and tell me... what you know and remember about God... most of my trans friends are very spiritual... what if... the info we read was bad... and the true info had been hidden from us... from our parents and even from the medical community... if little Johnnie said I feel like a girl I think I am a girl... what would you do as a parent... you would finally take him to the medical community... who had never been educated on our history... just a thought but there is a history to back me up... I can never be more by them making me less... we are not bound by the binary system... we are two spirits living as one... why do we have to be one or the other... ask the binaries.. lol... so you are right... it's time we all grew up... hope you have a wonderful day... thanks so much for sharing and please we need more gender variant people to explore instead of just trust the doctors on everything... the more I read the more I believe we have been hood winked by a community that wants to do surgery...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

J~ I love that "if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as you do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in" And that's so true. The only women who intentionally hurt their children have a mental illness.

The info out there is bad and that's why I'm glad you can portray another view. A view that is better for some, not for others, but should at least be considered by all.

"we need more gender variant people to explore instead of just trust the doctors on everything... the more I read the more I believe we have been hood winked by a community that wants to do surgery.." Great! Well said.

We trust the doctors who treat our symptoms on everything else and not the cause. they are not known for considering the mind and the body...or even the heart and soul of an individual. At most you get an hour at a time with them- hey, I've been through the ins and outs of the medical community for other things and I know they don't consider people as individuals, they only really have time to view trans as a group and a one size fits all treatment.


jeanine 4 years ago

Most people do not know that when Hilary care was not adopted by the Gov't... the private sector did embrace it... and that's what we have today... everyone is a specialist... and that's fine... but I do miss the doctor who knows me well enough to know if I am well or not... understand...I still long for the doctor who knows more than one thing... and I know my GP is that doc... it's medicine for god's sake... we should know each other before taking these drugs...lol...lol...lol


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Agreed Jeanine! I miss the doctor that would go ahead and tell me to give my baby some whiskey to help with teething,etc but Docs can't do that anymore. Everybody gets sued now. Don't get me started on specialists.


Jenna 4 years ago

I find it incredibly sad that you hold so much hated for your father. I hope someday you find it in your heart to love and accept people for who they are rather than who you wish them to be.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jenna~ I think most people are confusing my anger towards the fact that my dad got a sex change when that is not the anger. the anger is the lies I was told as a kid when my dad dressed up as a woman and I thought that was normal and then I was supposed to cover that up too- no child should have to be lied to. Many children in my position feel the same. You must not be in my position, but thanks for the comment.


Jenna 4 years ago

I'm confused as to your thoughts about the "lies" to be honest. In one paragraph (in part 1) you say:

"If transsexuals describe their need to change as something they "have/had to do" then why are there so many secrets, insecurities, and sensitivity from them after the fact?"

Then you go on to describe your father as "sickening" and "disgusting".

Is it any wonder that people with this condition keep it secret and may not even know the truth themselves until such point in their lives that they finally realize it? Is it any wonder that trans people feel insecure or uncomfortable around people in society who will stare, mock, and even murder them simply because of who they are?

You are accusing your father of lying when in fact she may not have been. She might have simply not known what her true feelings were about who she really is for a long, long time, having hid it deeply inside of herself for fear of persecution and being called "sickening" and "disgusting" by a society which has shown itself time and time again to be intolerant of anything different than the norm.

As a psychologist I am frankly amazed that you don't understand this. People hide things away, sometimes purposely, sometimes not, when they feel those things could cause them harm. That's just what people do. Feelings and events get repressed and sometimes don't show themselves for a long time, if they do at all.

Your father loves you. She's not trying to hurt you. She's just trying to be who she is. Just like all of us.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Jenna... what if you all have been sold a bill of goods... I think the medical community is clueless ... they admit it openly.... there is so little known about gender that you could be one of those smart people like the scientist who believed the earth was flat... one day they were doing what was right the next day... they were well... not the smartest any more... it's not about hate dear... it's about... why does everyone want us to be male or female... two spirited people have been here since the dawn of time... until the medical community decided we needed their help we were the advisers to kind and leader all of the world... read it , there is a history ... google it.. "two spirited"...


Jeanine 4 years ago

Jenna.. also there is no getting around this statement..."if I am a woman inside... and I believe I am... just as so many other transgendered people do... what woman(GG)... do you know that would hurt their children... not one... I know not one... in fact the woman in this body would kill any man that tried to hurt my children... including the one I live in" whether you are trans or not... one must face that this is a real question... there are no women on earth that intentionally hurt their children... and as trans, if we do what the medical community suggest... what are we... on our very first step toward womanhood... we indite ourselves as being men... now men... throughout history have hurt or killed their young... in the animal kingdom and in many kingdoms of the earth, a man has taken the life of his son to retain power... so wake up... my opinions are not so fly by night... look up our history... this time... now... in history is the time we have been respected the least and the least power we have had in centuries... take a guess what that might be... when they make us like you or like any other binary... we are no longer unique... but they make us less... and tell us we should want to be like them... a woman or a man to be happy... what a crock, we are unique simply because we are born this way... does it not seem strange to you that they think something is wrong with us... it strikes me as very odd... that we would take a child that has both spirits and try and make them one or the other... why is the question... is it because if there became to many of us... we might challenge the binary system... I don't really know... what I do know is... there is no doctor that I know of that even knows our history... why is that...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

It was sickening and disgusting to me to suddenly see my dad as a woman- I did not see him ofr two years and missed the "transition". It was night and day for me and it made me physically ill. You being a psychologist should know people are entitled to their feelings and when it home and a lot closer to the heart, there are more intense feelings. Prior to my dad, I had been friends with a transsexual man to woman and that did not make me sick at all because I was not tied into that person like i was with my dad. The public shouldn't look on with disgust unless it is a personal issue like it is with me. I do not feel and never felt that way with any variety of people. I think many of them seem like they are playing a part and in a way they are...until they get the hang of it- they do not seem comfortable.

I agree with Jeanine in that we do not offer any choices for them- what if it's possible to live as two in one (two-spirited)? What if you are contributing to the type of public persecution you are speaking of and counseling an individual who wants to be transsexual- most psychologists believe there is only one choice for trans to be happy and that is get the surgery. I think psychologists and doctors are largely contributing to the demise of these types of people and the tearing apart of families. What if your group (psychologists) have it all wrong?

I wanted badly to be a part of my dad's life in my early 20's before his surgery and I knew he was dressing up and going out to the city with friends, so you can see that this came between us. It consumed my dad and I was not a part of such a big part of him. His obsession with designer wigs and clothes and make-up while I was barely able to pay for stuff as a kid after my parents' got divorced.

And while my dad was trying to figure out who he was when I was a kid, it was done in front of me- I statedin this hub that he would dress up in front of me. So is it right for an adult to figure out something of sensitive nature in front of their kids. Does someone wondering their gay openly act out to try it out in front of their kids- God, I hope not. Imagine seeing your dad dressing up when you were a child and trying to make it a game so you would go along with it- wouldn't you be confused. If my dad, who was the adult, was confused imagine how a 5 yr old processes that. I'll let you figure that out since you are the psychologist. Unless you're PhD I've had as much schooling as you have in psychology. It's easy to make generalizations when you're not sitting in the hot seat. Shall we talk about your childhood?

My dad (also stated in this hub) said he knew who he was from the time he was a child. So the lie is marrying my mom, having a child, and living that life for 18 yrs.


Jenna 4 years ago

I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not a psychologist, I was saying that you "as a psychologist"; I'm sorry for the confusion.

You say in your latest comment:

"while my dad was trying to figure out who he was when I was a kid, it was done in front of me- I statedin this hub that he would dress up in front of me. So is it right for an adult to figure out something of sensitive nature in front of their kids. Does someone wondering their gay openly act out to try it out in front of their kids- God, I hope not."

Yet you still stand by the hurt you feel in that she lied to you.

I'm just sorry to see you hurting and I'm sorry to see your father hurting. I have no idea of the true situation and I can only make guesses based on your story.

The problem that I have with a story like this is that it only serves to cause more people to hide their true selves. There is no happy conclusion to your story, only the sad ending that you are hurt by your father. You're hurt because he lied to you, not because he is transsexual, yet the transsexual message is the one being heard loud and clear.

The message you seem to be giving is that it's not ok to hide who you are, but it's not ok to be who you are either. If your father had admitted who he was before marrying your mother and having you as a child, then perhaps that is ultimately what you wish for. I don't know.

I don't think being transsexual makes one not worthy of being a parent, but that doesn't mean I don't also feel your pain.

Finally, you ask if we shall talk about my childhood. I was born and raised in a cult religion: Jehovah's Witnesses, and I got out in my late teens. Most of my family (and extended family) is still in it and refuses to have any contact with me. I have some deep issues as a result of years of brainwashing and indoctrination, and at 42 years old I am still to this day struggling with them. I never got to celebrate holidays or birthdays. I was told that people outside the "truth" weren't my friends. My parents taught me to hate anyone who wasn't like me (JW) and that everyone in the world was evil. I was not allowed to be who I really am. My childhood was full of mental abuse and self doubt. My father didn't wear a dress but he did wear a belt, and it quite frequently found it's way to my rear end.

I hurt still, and I naturally react when other people hurt. I read your story and I know you're hurting, and I'm sorry for that. Try to make peace with your father. Let her know what you think of what she did, and really, truly listen when she tells you why... as long as she really truly listens to you. If not, then let go. Let her go, and let yourself free from the pain.

@Jeanine: I am very familiar with the "two spirit" concept, as with other gender related issues. I hear what you're saying about the psychological and medical "industries", believe me. I also know that there is no easy answer to anything. Society won't know what to make of "two spirit" people any more than they know what to make of binary people. Your experience is that of being two spirit. Not everyone's is. Everyone is different and everyone should have a chance to be their true selves... in a perfect world.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

My personal pain about the situation should not be confused with society's view on transgenders. I feel the way I do because it is my dad- a part of the child must grieve their "old" parent before the transition. I lost my dad...in a way.

I think talking about this stuff is better than not. By me talking about it, does not contribute to society not understanding trans. I think lack of acceptance is because people do not understand and we don't understand because we don't talk about it. I wrote about my true feelings- people write about losing loves and other things that hurt, but suddenly I shouldn't do that because its taboo when it comes to touchy subjects like gay, bi, trans, etc. In our society, it's not politically correct to talk ill of those things...even if I'm just expressing my personal experience and feelings just as someone might do should they break up with someone.

I think my dad should have been honest with my mom about who he was before marrying her. I wish he would have talked to me about things...transitioning instead of he's here one day and not the next.

I am sorry for your childhood- I am always sorry for children who are raised in a situation and brainwashed. I feel similar in that I thought it was normal what my dad did and yet I was told not to tell anybody either so I was quite mixed up and had to learn about men by myself because I did not get to truly know men as a kid- my view was skewed. Just like you had to realize the world and people who were not JW were not the way your parents made you think.

Thanks for the comment and discussion.


jeanine 4 years ago

In a perfect world... interesting comment... let me hip you to some of the info you don't know about Izettl... I have known her a while and her words are very powerful... all the things you have suggested she do with her dad, she has done... except she will not nor should she give Her dad up...read her hubs pertaining to gender and you'll find a young woman's view is all...

I do take issue that you believe everyone should be accepting of the way we as trans should be accepted for our behavior with our families... it's against the law to abuse a child or her mother... yet you seem to think.. or state that it's all right in this case to lie, to cheat, in that he kept the money for his clothes instead of helping his child...and the worse of all, he denied his child the intimacy of a father and daughter relationship...

I am two spirited and there is a real choice in my life... I will not put myself before my family... Christ came and gave his life for all of us... he also gave us the prime example of what one should do for their family... whether you believe in him or not... He gave His life for His family... that would be us... so that every man and woman would know... and have an example to live by...

where you think "two spirited" is part of the gender community, I believe it is the umbrella that all gender related issues fall under... the entire GLBT community falls under it... so don't just brush it to the side... if you are a young man... before you die, you will see that I am right... right now at this time in history, trans are experimenting with being free... and a lot of those who transition at this time will be known as pioneers... but there comes a day... and I hope it's soon... "For the people of this world are more shrewd than the people of the light.... I tell you, use your worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings"... Jesus... that is beautiful...yes I know... big week this week... yes it is... I wonder what those guys down at the church are up to... lol... hey that passover festival is getting old... Pete.."Lets give em something to talk about"...stop man, this serious... how are you going to change the Gov't... awww we'll come to a crossroads in the path... then you'll see... I'm sure we'll take the high road......when we all decide to stay in the bodies we are given... take a look at our gay community... look how far they have come and how far they will go... why is that... it's because just like us they have a different sexual preference, but chose to stay in the body... they are doing quite well as a community... Trans happen to be so spiritual that our own psychosis drives us to not sin against our God... we were the keepers of the secrets of God, before the Christian made it to the scene... don't you wonder why our history is hidden... think about it... the Christians built their religion on our relationship...with God...convenient that that only tells the stories of thousands of years ago... why wouldn't you tell what is happening to you now... could one of the reasons be... you don't know the God that you are talking about... you say JW is a cult... what if the entire Christian religion is a facade... I am Christian but I wonder sometimes... I have a relationship with this God that is on going each day, each hour, each minute and if I can pay attention, each moment if different with this God... when He said I am the "I am".. do you know what that means... it means I am the God of present, the God of now... understand...

I hope I am explaining this without sounding like I am whipping you... I just need you to know

Are you trans and if you are are you living your life... the one thing that is different about two spirits is that we believe we are to live freely in both genders all of our lives... we use the body we are given... it's only for a while here on earth anyway... we don't believe in leaving our families nor do our families leave us... for you who do not know us... we were referred to as the old ones... not because we are old... but because we are mature in responsibilities to the world He has given us... our families would be the first world He has given us... understand..

We are here to help you understand each other... do know before the Christians got here... there was no word for divorce in most tribes of the world... guess who was advising the tribes at that time... you would be right ... that would be us... not trans... "Two spirits"... trans is just the new buzz word... read your history dear... Izettl is a child that was abused by an immature "two spirited" man who wanted to be one or the other... we are both living as one... Two are half of who they were... and I know how harsh that sounds, but it's true and the older you get, the more you will realize we are here to protect you... not be like you... why do you think Trans are unhappy...lol... your medical community is so clueless they have all decided that it's because we aren't women... or men... and that's a good guess from someone who hasn't a clue how this feels inside... the real answer is we are unhappy because we are not living as two... have a great day...and read...lol... it helps you learn...lol...


Travis Pyle profile image

Travis Pyle 4 years ago from Vineland, New Jersey

Damn Gina people write comments like their writing a book. Otherwise great hub.


jeanine 4 years ago

you would be correct... about the book I mean...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine- sometimes yo uwrite a book but there are some gold nuggets of info and thoughts in your comments such as: "I am two spirited and there is a real choice in my life... I will not put myself before my family... Christ came and gave his life for all of us... he also gave us the prime example of what one should do for their family... whether you believe in him or not... He gave His life for His family... that would be us... so that every man and woman would know... and have an example to live by..." Very true!

You talk about living as one or the other and even though my dad got his sex change, it seems he is living mroe like both. I think after the change he realized she is both and is now most comfortable that way- if only he realized he didn't need to change to have that life where she could still reside within him.

Travis~ thanks glad you enjoyed the hub.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Priscluv~ this isn't a dating site...I'm married too.


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Izettl... hey are you running a dating site now...lol...lol that's great...

I am so sorry I write so much... but hey I am passionate about this and know that we as a community have either been led astray or we are so unimportant to the medical community that they haven't even looked up our history... I to wished more of my tribe would see what they are doing to us... we are like drunken Indians, rushing toward transition... I'm glad your dad at least can be comfortable now as two... we are two and always will be... it's not really his fault, the medical community has chosen to tell a half truth here... and I don't why really... I just know it's going on...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ Well my dad didn't work in the entertainment industry like you so he could not easily express his feminine side, he worked for the government and that probably wasn't the most flexible environment. I think he gives himself "permission" now to be seen as both now that he transitioned. You have done that without the unnecessary (for some) surgery.


jeanine 4 years ago

Those guys in the Gov't are crooks....

it's the patience that is missing in my tribe right now... when we were raised as women with mens bodies we were not so uptight... taught to be compassionate, to love above all things... to respect our mothers and be like them when we could... because we are both... we fit into either house hold... to be with a man or a woman...I am married to a woman but it's the man part of me that she needs... the woman that I am... she is just friends with... that's one thing the modren trans community see's differently than our forefathers.... but it is what separated us... today's trans wants his wife to treat him like a woman but love him like he is still a man... that's not how it goes... so most of my tribe today, make some crazy hurt for all those involved and end up losing the wife as a friend also...all I'm saying is... if you are a woman and you transition... why would you expect the woman you married to feel the same about you... that's almost an impossibility... the reality is you would have to know how to be not only a woman instantly, but be provocative enough... without being weird to attract a woman who knew you and fell in love with you as a man... that is such a long shot... and shows how over confident and very masculine in thought the trans in question has become... some fantasy that she has been carrying for such a long time... the very fact that trans do not adjust well if their wives reject the idea... shows that he is not female at all... a female would be able to adjust to anything really... look at birth... oh my...or an abusive husband... God forbid... women will do almost anthing to protect their kids, even to the point of keeping that crazy husband entertained until her child is safe... I see no such sacrifice going on in the trans community... don't take the the wrong way...all trans have had a ruff go of it... they have ignorant parents for one... or uneducated to what our history really is...so all their little lives TS children are told they are wrong... try not to act this way... I guess what I'm trying to say is... if our parents had known... who it have made a difference... I believe it would have... I believe we would have a healthy different sect of people called "two spirited"... ... if you are trans... or not... I implore you to read what is written in almost every culture on earth about my tribe... "Two Spirited" men and women were your helpers... we served your spirit and helped you learn more about each other... we are not men or women... we are a tribe that has some understanding of both... it's why we as trans always say... I'm a woman tramped in this body... lol... no you are a man or a woman who has insight become human kind in spiritual matters...


Jeanine 4 years ago

no you are a man or a woman who has insight beyond normal human kind in spiritual matters...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

amen sister!!!lol!


Jeanine 4 years ago

and nowwwwwww for my next trick... lol... sorry... this soap box was just here so I was fine until I stepped up on it...lol...lol...lol... have a great night... kiss the babies and love on that man of yours... oh that's right we are supposed to be angry and cross... lol... what if we weren't supposed to be angry at all... we gifted men so drunk in the spirit that we dreamed we were women in mens bodies... or women who wanted equality so much that we dreamed we inhabited men...lol...


whybrew profile image

whybrew 4 years ago from Northwest Indiana

When I started questioning my gender and considering transitiiong, I had a male to female transsexual tell me "You will never be a man. You will be only be the best impression of a man." I'm female to male. I feel like that is definitely applicable to your father's situation...just switch the genders. :)


Jeanine 4 years ago

whybrew... so very applicable to all two spirited behavior... they are gifts... we have both...gays have both in that there are alike in both... Lesbian has both in that they are both on the one side... bi is coming to have both but not in a controlled manner... trans or two spirits have both but had refine both behaviors and decided their uniqueness lay in that they were two living as one... I think what we are doing to oursleves is trying to fit into a mode that was never meant for us... so I am in agreement with you... if we enter into the binary system as one or the other...we do satisfy our longings... but I am still suspect that we lose our uniqueness... we are two living as one...


whybrew profile image

whybrew 4 years ago from Northwest Indiana

@Jeanine. I agree completely. I don't identify my gender as male or masculine. I identify as transgender. There's no other way to describe it. I've learned on my journey that I need to embrace my femininity and not suppress it. All of it is a part of who I am.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

I agree to both Jeanine and whybrew! I can almost sympathize in a way that I didn't feel like a woman when I competed in the business industry. I had to look like a woman and act or work like a man. It was hard not being true to myself. I'm now working on my own time from home and a stay-at-home mom so I feel in sync with who I am as a woman. I know this is a strange example but similar in some ways. I think many professional women have to fit into a man's mold. I don't think there should be a mold or one or two choices but individual utilized for their strengths and live as who they are.

My dad, after transitioning lives mroe like gender neutral than he did as a man dressing as a woman.

whybrew- you are exactly right on embracing your femininity and not suppress it. I finally learned to do that when I had my first child- it took about 30+ years. Sad but true so glad you've found that for yourself. And it is a journey...


jeanine 4 years ago

whybrew is right we are all both... so why are the doctors telling us we will only be happy if we are one... that's a very strange thing for me... because I've lived this way all of my life... not because I had to but because it's the way I am.... I didn't nor do I feel something is wrong with me... I feel it has helped me in that I know a lot or a little about both... I don't long to be a woman or long to be a man... I am...and whatever happens that day is what I do...or how I live that day... I do however sometimes wished I was all woman or all man... but then I think... what is that statement... and I have to look and see that it is a statement from the binary system... what man wouldn't want to know more about the inner working of a woman... or what woman wouldn't want to understand more about her man... I really don't see it as a bad thing... just a different thing...


Pringles3030 4 years ago

Jeanine that's what I have thought. My dad says it confuses him to go back and forth. Were I have a hard time is the clothing, hormones, and changing the voice. It makes much more sense as you say, "I am". Why is it necessary to change all the externals? Be who you are, relate how you do and if someone can't relate, move on. At least they know you for who you are. Or is that to simplistic?


jeanine 4 years ago

pringles, you are right... but in his/her defense... there are other issues going on... some of it is rebellion from and over zealous father or grandfather... some of it can be OCD, some of it can be depression... we are trans but not all of us have studied our history..."google 'Two spirited" people for him... unfortunately for us... the medical community has bought into surgery... I am so sorry you are having to face this... but help him/her if you can... he/she has lost her way... and because she/he has repressed this desire for so long... it has turned on her/him... we have have to face this part... the difference with me is I have had a wonderful support group and have had the time to wait and study... it is very confusing... and because he can't just change , he is looking at the externals to help him...."Why is it necessary to change all the externals? Be who you are, relate how you do and if someone can't relate, move on. At least they know you for who you are"... is the million dollar question.. we all are so displeased with our body imagine that it is difficult to think normally like you do... we are not binary and we so much long for that... I stopped longing to be like you and others long ago... it's just not in my jeans...lol... no pun intended... also.. there are some homo erotic feelings going on with most of us and we were and are so graphed into our relationship with God, that it is difficult to think we could be attracted to our own sex... so we must be the opposite sex... now that is to simplistic also...


Drew 4 years ago

This is fascinating, enjoyed the back story too. I am a trans and a parent. I am intersexed, I dont want to be either, just myself somewhere in the middle. It is very hard, I have not transitioned and I live as a man, to my daughter and my work colleagues because I fear their reactions. I am very close to my daughter.

I make an attractive man, I also made a very attractive woman and I feel comfortable and good as a woman. I feel I have to live as a man though. Its pretty horrible for me. I think about it everyday of my life and always have. It is my daughter that I worry about she is 10. Should I tell her and if so how? What is your advice. This is lifelong for me, it a part of me. I am concerned and want to do the right thing for my daughter. I am struggling, society is so gender specific. Please suggest a way forward.


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Drew... a way... not the way but a way... is to find a gender neutral, job.. I am in entertainment and have been for all my life and it has helped... a lot... forest rangers, tour guides, computer programmers... there are many... many others.... I do understand how it has been on going... and I know it is painful... you must talk with Celeste on this site... she has a different take than the rest... so talk with her when you can... your child is the most important...


Jeanine 4 years ago

Drew... I didn't tell you the easiest thing and that is to find a friendly therapist to recommend you to a good endocrinologist... he will will start you on a low dose of estrogen and an anti-androgen... in just a few weeks you will feel so much better you want believe it... do that as soon as you can and then you will have time to think... also, do your face before you try to transition... it takes a moment but is worth it...and google.. "two spirited" people... it's our history really... so it will help...the hrt is great, clearing the face is a new place for you to be... and the history will show how we have been treated like kings and queens all over the world for all of our years here on earth...except the last few hundred years... most trans only know their history sense the 1920's... harry Benjamin... before the medical community started to help us, we were advisers to kings and leaders of the world... since the medical community has been helping... we are the pride of the Jerry Springer Show... read it... there is a history with our kind...prayer helps...


Drew 4 years ago

Thanks, for your comments Jeanine, I am grateful for your time, I will look that up now. Thanks so much, I am used to humiliation and abuse and all the wrong type of attention, not much used to understanding. I will send you a private message. I am really quite shy.


Jeanine 4 years ago

you are welcome... we all need understanding and there is an on going conversation within these hubs of Izettl s so I think there is a trilogy that she has written... this one and My Father the transsexual... and misunderstanding gender and an extra hub called OCD and transexuality... she is a very good writer to me and has an opinion about almost everything... I love that... a very good look at what woman will grow to be very soon in America... it's why I think so many of us, who know both sides are transitioning... we see what is coming in the age ahead for women and would rather be in the group that will end up on top...lol so to speak... funny but it's real for us... the pyschosis is so paramount that we have all been convinced by a meddling medical community that we are women or are men... we are not... I believe we are two and we are supposed to stay as two living as one... to help men and women usher in the new reality....try not to be shy... Celeste has some real input here so touch with her... she is a very beautiful human being but gave up her family and said it was the most hurt she has ever felt in her life... so she knows... I stayed with my family because "Two spirits" never leave their families nor the families never leave them... it's a belief not a law or anything... it's why we stay as two... we are both... living as one... there is another choice is all I'm saying... your child is a gift from God... so they are to be treated as such... let he who has ears to hear let him hear...


Jason 4 years ago

Unfortunately God who created you is against emasculation.Those who do idolatry,sexual immorality,effeminate(homos),LGBT,liars,murderers,cowards will be thrown to eternal hell fire.So your thinking that effeminate charachters are okay for a man,or that masculine characters are okay for women is wrong.The present dilemma of your father is miserable,but Good News is even he can have eternal life if he repent of his sexual immorality and accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour.The same is the case for you and all who are decieved by the gender bending feminist lie.Repent come back to Jesus who created you and stop sinning.God bless you.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Jason... the only time in the written history that Jesus got mad was when the leaders in the church judged everyone... he never turned over any tables or cried you have made my Fathers house a den of robbers and thieves... when He was in the street with us sinners... He only did that once... and that was with you guys... who are always judging... and I know that's your own cross to bear, so I will pray for you as you pray for us... our psychosis is body dysmorphia (we can't seem to be comfortable in this body)... yours is spiritual( you can't be comfortable with your spirit, so you feel you must justify your beliefs by helping me to see it your way)... but they are both psychosis... are you aware that most of the words you speak are .. John Tyndales words not the original words that are written... when he did the interpt for the King James version... he wrote what the people could understand... I don't expect you to see it my way... but I did fall in love with the Christians God and He is everything you profess Him to be... except this one thing that you seem to want to hold up and say... I have found no judgemental attitude in Him... only in some of His followers like yourself... please pray for us and put on your best face of Christ if you can... read our history... before the Christians came to save us... we were the keepers of the secrets of God... did you know that before the Christians came... in most tribes there was no word for divorce... so please.. I do appreciate you trying to save us, but read your own history, it's so full of violence that it is difficult for the rest of us to actually believe you are trying to save us... it feels more like you are trying to make us believe what you believe... and that's ok... it's just not very mature... what was it Jesus called it... caught up in the law , I think...like not eating grain on the Sabbath... or the ox in the ditch... try to see with His eyes instead of your own... we were fine for thousands of years... until the Christians came and demanded that we join the binary system... because you only believe in God man man and God made woman... pray for us as we pray for you... we are men and women, who have an understanding of both... you seem to be a man who has no understanding of either... read dear... in the beginning was the word... means in the beginning Christ was there and He was called the word... it also means in the beginning... God gave us the word to communicate and be intelligent... the written word... and the Christ... or the way you say it... Christ and then the written word... as "two spirits" we believe the body is holy also and should be respected... again if you look at what happened to my tribe... it was the Christians that said I had to be either a man or a woman... sad really... there is no such thing as gender bending... that's some pop culture phrase that you grew up with... try and love me, like Christ would... it will give you much more peace and I will try and listen if I see Christ in you... that the key dear... you must put yourself a side and see me as He would... not as you would... I'm sure you are a wonderful person... and I'm sure you are trying to help me... I go to your Churches because you are always talking about Him... I read this Bible because it's about Him... but neither of those interest me in the least when He is near... I just want to be with Him... My love and yours... I hear you saying I may be evil if I don't see it your way... But I hear Him whispering in my ear, that I am His and He is mine and He loves me... and that is so much more powerful inside of me... even now, He prompt me to tell you I love you... speak to each other in love... and we will feel His presence... I hope you understand... and I hope you will stay and comment... we need to talk amongst ourselves... He loves each of us the same... He said so... Romans 8: 38... nothing can keep us away from the love of God... that would be nothing dear... nothing would include gender dysphoria... and also would mean even you ... can't keep me away from His love... hope you have a good day... love is the answer... He said that to... love me... can you... for if you can not love... How can Christ love you...think... I just told you... even I can't keep you away from His love...


Jason 4 years ago

Unfortunately Jesus said "i have not come to make peace,but war".Brother against brother,family against family,nation against nation.The path to eternal life is not easy and wide but hard and narrow,and few pass through it.But with anointing of Holy Spirit ,God helps us to traverse this difficult path.I too am a sinner like you,perhaps more sinfull than you.I have no merit in myself to condemn/judge anyone.Jesus said to the prostitute woman whom he saved from stoning by the crowd -TO SIN NO MORE.THAT IS HIS CRY TO EVERYONE OF US.HE LOVES US SO MUCH,AND WANTS ALL TO BE SAVED.THAT IS WHY HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR THE SINS OF ALL MANKIND.

Forgive me if i have offended you.I only meant to expose the reality to you.I will pray for you,so that God may lead you to eternal life.God bless you.


jeanine 4 years ago

I have eternal life because of your savior and mine... I still live in the body He gave me and you did not offend me... I love Christians... I just don't love the dogma... because I choose to lie in this body does not mean this is not a real thing for my tribe... and that's what these hubs are about...a discussion of your ideas and all of our ideas... I believe we have been sold a bill of goods by the medical community... again... if you read history... "Two spirited" people have been here since Adam and Eve... we were advisers to Kings and queens all over the world... all I'm saying is... the first people who got the message from God abused it and took the laws of Moses which are Holy and the word of God and changed them so much, that Christ had to come and set it straight... I'm saying be kind and realize that Christians may be doing it again... when Christ came... who knew more about religion than anyone on earth... the guys working in the temple... where He went off and said... "My Fathers house is a house of prayer... you have made it a den of thieves"...thieves in this case is not just those who are stealing moneies... but those who would steal the truth from people like us... that because you believe there is no way for God to love us.... because we are so different than you there is no way He could love us... your own bible refutes that... think about it... in your church , more than likely your pastor preaches that Paul won the argument when he comes down from antioch and tells peter that Christ meant for us to go out in all the world... well that's how we believe now... but Peter won that argument and most of the disciples stayed in Jerusalem until the Romans began to martre them.... I believe we as Christians are doing similiar things to the words of God today... I know you meant well... but the very fact that you would judge before knowing us is troubling... and I know as a Christian you can understand what I am saying...what if you are a student of those who came before you and not truly the word... and I'm not saying you are wrong... just saying look at it a moment... if I were satan and were going to try to destroy this thing that God has given so freely to everyone on earth... how would I do it... I would tell them that there are certain people and certain ways that Christ will not accept and forgive... or that unless I could act a certain way or act like your rules... I wasn't really forgiven... understand...


Jason 4 years ago

God lookes deep inside your heart.He. knows the deep secrets of your heart.He knows how wicked human heart can be.

Jesus lashed at pharisees who led people to hell fire by twisting scriptures.Jesus coming was long prophecied by more than 430 messianic prophecies,a few which is yet to be fulfilled in the 2nd coming of Jesus.This is the only thing i want to show you -A great time judgment/wrath is coming,before which all true belivers will be taken out of earth by rapture.So if you are a true believer you will repent about your sins,rather than saying you are holy,just etc.Bible says all mankind is sinfull by the sin of Adam.Further after repenting you should not sin anymore.In case you sin again and again because of your weak "flesh",repent again until you get the anointing of holyspirit to overcome the sin.This is what it means to walk in the narrow and hard path that lead to eternal life.

So my dear friend,what is the sin in the case of being effeminate/transgendered/homosexual etc?.Jesus clearly says in 1Corinthians6:9 and other scriptures that those who practice homosexuality,delibrate emasculation for selfish pleasure etc which characterizes the word "effeminate" are sinning and doomed for eternal hell fire along with idolaters,adulterers,liars,cowards,murderers etc.You seem to justify your effeminate selfish sins in your posts.Think about it and pray to Jesus to lead you to truth.If you have already become a woman by sex change operation,then pray to Lord Jesus to lead you to eternal life.Remember God created humans as male and female.Diseases,infirmities transgendered babies are the work satan and his fallen angels.In the rare case of being born as a transgendered baby,they are justified to choose what sex they want to be.So if you were created by God as a male and you sinned against God by becoming a female,then repent and continue to live as a female or revert back to male by sex change operation rather than living as both male and female and sinning against Jesus Christ.

So God bless you to see the reality and have eternal life.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Ok... I want to be saved... tell me how... you can't... because of your own selfish need to be holy... I am not holy and I know it... nor have I transitioned into another body.. did you read anything I wrote... I am the chief sinner amongst all of you... well like Paul when he was Saul... I do so hope you learne to have a real relationship with Christ... what is bothering you is that He would speak to someone like me... you must face this in your life... because I do have a real relationship with Him and we speak every day before my day begins and as long as He wants me to listen... please lay yourself aside for just one moment... or you will be as surprised as anyone when heaven is full of sinners like me... I know someone told you you had to tell me the good news... but what they forgot to tell you is you need to show me the Christ in you... not tell me... I can read... I know I am a sinner... and if you believe that you can live a day without sin, then knock yourself out... you can almost do it... but then you say... I did it... and that would be the sin of pride...lol...lol... if you did live a day without sinning against God... you would have to not notice... more like Mother teresa... or Billy Graham... I enjoyed the conversation though... and I'm very aware of your bible because it's mine also... as you grow... I'll leave you with this question... if your walk is personal and daily why do you only tell the miracles that God did 2000 years ago... my tribe had and has a relationship with what you call your God... but to us it looks like you based it on our relationship with Him... not yours... if you were going to steal the Glory from a people how would you do it... you would tell everyone that we were evil...and kick us out of the church... and if you knew not how to access the God you speak of... you would only tell stories of what happened...and not what is happening... can you heal the man with the withered hand... or do you believe that was for another time...lol... oh my.... think dear... He is the God of all of creation... my sin is no worse than yours... stop spewing hate... I don't hate you... nor what you do... except I really hate that judgment thing you seem to be carrying... I told a hater once trying to preach the Gospel through hate... be careful, this God with show up and visit you and deal with you the way you are dealing with others... now... do you want to start over and treat me like I am His most precious, which is what I hear from Him every time I hear from Him...which I'm lucky or blessed... or lucky to be this blessed or blessed to be this lucky... so that would be everyone of your days...not 2000 years ago but today, now this morning... I am a lot like Peter... and I would cut your ear off... except that's not what He tells me to do... even with those like yourself who hate those of us who don't fit, who are outcast, those that the world and all of those who say they represent Him... dislike... you are not my judge... nor do I see my lover Jesus Christ in you or your words... so as you warn me... be very careful to listen to your own words... are they for me... or for you... I believe they are for both of us... you have no right to say I do not have eternal life... nor do I have the right to say you do not... the last time you saw me... I was the one hanging to His right... I did nothing good, nothing Holy, yet the King of all Glory invited me to His Home in Paradise... trim your lamps.. and be concerned with you... the Bridegroom cometh for those who wait and are ready...


Jason 4 years ago

I said "if" you have transformed to woman by sex change operation,then live as a woman and give thanks to the Lord Jesus.But if your consciense hurts that you have sinned by changing your sex then pray to Jesus to show you the way and if he opens a way to another sex change operation to revert back to being a man then do it,live the rest of your life as a man and give thanks to Lord Jesus for saving you.I didn't judge you,i showed you the way to eternal life as the Holy Spirit showed me.When you live claiming you are transgendered with a male/female body then you sin against Jesus.If you have male body you should live as a male and if you have a female body you should live as a female,otherwise you are sinning against Lord Jesus.True hermaphrodite where external genitalia is underdeveloped is a rare case,and let them live as God leads them.


Jason 4 years ago

I remember my girl friend once asking me if she loked pretty in pants,i replied skirts suit her better.Most people have cross-dressed and have sinned just like idolatry.I have also cross-dressed.But Lord Jesus gave me power to overcome that sin.People trapped in the so called "modern" feminist lie think it's okay to crossdress.That is now a usual practice among westerners.Women wear pants act tomboyish and this sin is encouraged like idolatry.Men indoctrinated with these feminist lies like yourself think it's okay to cross dress ignoring the clear warnings of OT &NT scriptures.May God have mercy on these people ,for they donot know what they do.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Try and understand that you are clueless when it comes to what we are talking about...you just said... well if you are intersexed... is the word... not Hermaphrodite... you just said let them live the way they choose... good grief man That means you see degrees of this disorder... oh I must be a sinner because I am hermaphrodite light... lol... hey thanks for your opinion ... and I will try and be more like you and tell God... that I need to do what you say and feel less of a person than to listen to His words that say I am his love and He is mine forever... yeah like that's not going to happen... hey tell me... who did you come to this site... are you dealing with gender issues or have you in the past.... "google "two spirited" people and see, we do not change bodies nor leave our families , nor do they leave us... we were until your kind came to america, the spiritual leaders of all the tribes... the keepers of the secrets of God... so here we go... what fruit are you showing... we show that we led nations in peace... Christians have led in war... read it... it's not my opinion... doesn't the bible say you will know them by their fruit...wake up... praise is talking... prayer is listening... Christ never judged anyone but the leaders of the church, He let each one either follow Him or walk away like the rich young ruler... if you go out tomorrow and sell all that you have and give it to the poor... then I might listen to your judgmental dogma... but you are not going to do that... nor are you going to touch us and heal us... you have had the chance to touch me right here and you still can only go to the well rehearsed judgement that you have practiced... never realizing you could be talking to Christ Himself... and no I am not Him... but he said , what ever you have done to the least of these you have done unto me... have a nice day... and no I am praying for you as you pray for me... it's for sure we will find out in the end... here's my last question... if I'm so confused and this disorder does cause confusion... because we want to be so much like you... yeah...lol... sorry.... why am I telling you that love is the way and you are telling me unless I turn and don't do that...I will die for sure... as far as I can tell ... Christ never said anything negative to anyone, except those who claimed to know God's will... I know that hurt but as much as I need to hear what you are saying... and you believe I do right... you must realize that you could be that person... I can hear you now saying well... I could never be like the Pharisees... look at that for a moment... no one knew more about God, no one knew more of the law, no one tried harder than the Pharisees to be Holy... and no one cared more for the people supposedly than them... help me believe you are not those guys... I am willing to be saved... if you can love me... Christ did not say come to me when you are sinless... He calls all as we are... now if I can no longer sin and be the woman I am inside... you can surely try and not be my judge... correct...


karmicfilly profile image

karmicfilly 4 years ago from Franklin, TN

Great hub glad I took the time to search for something to read. I love the fact that we are allowed to air our feelings, opinions, observations on such a forum. I too write like you in that I don't write for anyone but myself and if someone learns something from it then all the better. It may be very personal but it's my truth which is never something I'm ashamed of. It makes us more human. Thanks for the hub. I will return.


angied83 profile image

angied83 4 years ago

Wow this is a very interesting hub. This is the first time I've read of a 50+ man deciding to undergo sex change surgery. I've seen plenty of transvestites but they are way way younger. Thanks for sharing, izettl.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jason~ you may have this confused for a religious article/hub. I have plenty of those and you should visit them. It sounds as if you are taking God's job away as judge.

Drew~ the best thing I can suggest IS talking to your child in an age appropriate way with age appropriate info. I understood a lot when I was 10- in fact that's when I realized thorugh my mom's conversations with her friends that my dad cross-dressed. I never knew the desire to BE a woman until my dad transitioned. I've always maintained that the thing that hurt was him not talking to me or halping me transition with him- having time to get used to the idea and communication throughout the process. I was blind-sided.

I remember many times as a child when I screwed up or did something wrong and it was so hard to admit or tell my parents, but I did. I always relenquished my pride and I told them- just wish my dad had reciprocate that same effort to tell me even though it would be difficult. Talking to your child will be hard now, but harder later.

Also I remember certain things hat signified me becoming a woman and I tried to pretend to be the little girl my dad remebered me (and preferred) me to be. I led a double life just as you are talking about- being one person to others and another person to my dad. I still don't believe my dad has accepted me as a woman and perhaps that's influenced the way I accept him as a woman.

karmicfilly~ what a great way to describe our writing! Writing has always helped me to figure things out and it's great to get the comments and feedback too. Thank you for stopping by.

angied83~ thank you for taking the time to read.


Anna 4 years ago

You show your ignorance more than your insight here.

55 years trying to be as normal as possible. Of course there are coping strategies, defence mechanisms and learnt behaviours that would take another 55 years to unlearn. There's little gender conflict in someone who has been doing this as long as she has, just a lot of shame and pain and so much time to be made up for.

I think you're selfish to show such distain after she stuck with you for so long. You look down your nose at her with your perfect cis binary 20/20 vision. It takes a stronger person than you clearly are to have done what she did at 55.

The SRS, BA, FFS and/or voice training hasn't so much to do with "instantly becoming a woman" so much as it has to do with reflecting on the outside how you feel on the inside. Far more important though is how you're treated day to day. You look like a guy you're expected to look and act a certain way and so you do for as long as you can manage it.

Your second mum has no chance of passing, she gave that dream up by waiting this long, for whatever reason (you guys probably) - but at least if she shows cleavage and attempts a voice people might take her for more than a 2 penny fetishistic cross dresser high on autogynephilia. 

You miss the vital point that she always was a woman on the inside and she's so very desperate to be recognised as such.

It's a cruel world made crueler by people such as you.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Anna~ did I forget to mention when my dad laughed at me every time I cried or showed emotion (that doesn't make for a good woman). Like I state in my just because she has boobs doesn't make her a woman. You are right in saying it's on the inside but many transsexuals would never pass for a woman even if we were only to judge them on their inside. Many still act like men...like my dad..very insensitive.Perhaps my so-called cruelty came from him- I was after all raised by him.

Because of my dad I didn't want to grow up and be a woman- my dad looked down upon my mom and picked at her for so many years. He cheated on her with another woman- yeah that's a good woman on the inside (sarcasm).

Problem is you didn't know the back story of my dad's personality. You just say to yourself ' poor transsexual', but did not konw my dad was mostly the predator in my family...very sharp-toungued and looked down upon women. Made fun of me when I was growing up. But you're right...poor him/her. He was not always and still isn't a woman on the inside. That's why I think some trans are playing nothing more than a charade and should recognize what truly makes a woman and perhaps even accept that they are both male-like and female-like but not one or the other. Which is fine too.

This selfish and cruel person wishes you a happy day.


Anna 4 years ago

Your second mum acted how she did for reasons I'll never know and such reasons are clearly beyond the scope of this thread.

That doesn't alter the fact that your sense of gender is warped and you apply the distain you feel for your second mum to other trans women and I wonder just how many other trans women you do really know.

Furthermore you bind kindess to women and cruelty to men - laughable. Try stating "makes a good person" and not "makes a good woman".

The topic of this thread should be "just because you have boobs doesn't make you a nicer person".

Gender has nothing to do with who the person is. Fat/thin short/tall happy/sad gynephilic/androphilic nice/nasty caring/selfish.

I'm not too arrogant to admit when I'm wrong but you are cruel and selfish; but then we're all products of our surroundings aren't we?


Jeanine 4 years ago

Anna Please, you know better than to act like this...she had to live through this so her other mom as you call her dad is not alone here... I am trans and she knows me... I'm two spirited and here's my question and I know you'll calm down here in a moment and try and answer it... " if I am a woman inside like you and all five of my therapist and a few others have said I am, I do feel like you and wished everyday I had transitioned, here's my question, "what GG, woman or mother do you know, who would intentionally hurt their children, actually I don't know one who would, in fact I would kill any man who tried to hurt my children, including the one I live within... read your history, we were great as a tribe, living as two for thousands of years, we were advisers to Kings and leader all over the world... since the medical community has been helping us these last 100 years, we are the pride of the jerry Springer show... think about it, have you ever heard another option except SRS.... I stumbled upon "two spirited" people looking for some answers and I can already hear you saying, that's just an American Indian term, and you would be right, except we were called many different things in different tribes... we were the keepers of the secrets of God... and before the Christians came, the spiritual leaders of the entire world... look it up, read your own history, I love and respect you because of who you are not what the medical community has decided what we need to be... we are not binary, so why are we trying to be... I know you have been hurt, but understand I do understand... our parents were ignorant and didn't know, we must educate and you must see that this is a child of abuse reaching out to tell her story... stop the hating and spewing hate... we are not of this tribe that you want to join or that someone has told you should be... we are two spirits here to help them know one another not hurt them... think about it... was it your dad, your grandfather, that made you act like a man, think about it from their perspective... if little Johnnie says I'm a girl ... I'm a girl, what do they do, they run to the doctor and if he has not been educated to who we are, he says, well if you are not a boy, you must be a girl.... tell me human beings are smarter than this... because I have found they are not...I am so sorry but you must grow up and see who you are... you are great, so do not hurt them, they mean you no harm... you can not unload your hurt here... I am two living as one as we have for thousands of years... Two spirits do not leave their families nor do our families leave us... try to be civil... there is understanding and acceptance here, so let me hear the real you, yes the one I know, the one before the hurt...


Anna 4 years ago

First I'm not sure why you're bringing this around to me and who I am - other than the fact that like everyone else I bring my own experiences and prejudices to the debate but that's kind of a given in any debate and what makes it so interesting.

There's no anger here though, I'm just stating my opinion. If I'm too strident perhaps you're too weak a person to deal with my tone and thus must define it as anger. The author of this thread was pretty spirited, in initial post and subsequent replies and yet you suggest I calm down?

Honestly what you've written just comes over as sanctimonious babble Jeanine. I'm well aware of the American Indians and some African tribes having places in their culture, mythology and societies for trans people. If you identify as somewhere in the middle fine but don't try and apply that to how I feel. I subscribe myself loosely to the binary tree but more specifically as female. The majority of my stereotypically male traits are as I am finding out more and more, by and large; defence mechanisms. Amazingly I'm perhaps more stereotypically feminine in many ways than my female siblings and even my mother, that's not put on to over compensate that's just a fact it'd seem now I'm allowing myself to be me but that doesn't mean I dress overtly feminine or act overtly feminine because I don't need or want to. If you do not subscribe to the binary tree then fine - third sexed, two spirited, whatever takes your fancy it's fine by me. Funny though you've rejected other peoples labels but are happy to apply your own, but you've just tried to convince me that's how I should feel and identify but I do not sorry.

SRS is not the be all and end all anymore than breasts are or wide hips. Why do you think it's so hard to obtain SRS? How many countless hours of therapy, RLE and psychiatrists letters does one need? I'd suggest you do some research because there are many trans women who have no problem with their boy bits and never seek SRS at all.

My problem with Izettl's posts are that she binds her second mothers personality traits to all trans women. That's tantamount to calling all black people gangsters, all Jews tight with their money and all Americans fat and stupid - some are and some are not just as some are and some are not in all walks of life and social groups.

There are many bad mothers and this point I simply won't argue on because you're just wrong my friend and it is obviously pointless to discuss it further. Additionally her genetic mother is as much to blame for facilitating what happened as her second mother is for behaving in that way. Abusers by and large require facilitators, that's not giving her second mother a pass for actions done; that's simple fact as I see it.

You've proven my point Jeanine, her mother did let it happen so by your own reasoning- bad mother.


Anna 4 years ago

Frankly, I didn't really want to put this transparency out there but I will.

From my personal experience of adult children with unhappy childhoods based in this dynamic (transsexuality aside for a moment) :

-: Daughters blame their mother role for not protecting them and letting these things continue.

-: Sons blame their father role for acting that way in the first place and putting them all through it.

.

People bind their own perspectives to the situations of course but this as far as I can tell seems to be the typical product.

It's very interesting then that the female poster applies zero or very little blame to the genetic mother. It's also interesting that as a by product of that she renounces any true transsexualism in the genetic father (presumably lest he have anything in common what-so-ever to the saintly mother). Furthermore she claims to have renounced femininity and womanhood in her youth, but surely the saintly mother would have been her strongest female role model in the family? Since the genetic father was far from full time and the poster obviously now rejects any real femininity in the genetic father.


Jeanine 4 years ago

God... I wished you could read you like we are reading you... you are all male in attitude and that's proving my point... we are both... male as warriors and female in compassion... and that's all I'm asking of you... be compassionate... let me see your girl side... I like you don't give damn what you are or how you live... I know most every Trans has treated her exactly like you are treating her and I know you are not this harsh with your own children even if you find them to be wrong... so that's all I'm saying... we have lived with our cross and she decided to write about hers... now... unless you transitioned very early... I know and you know as well that some of your matter of fact as you call it... opinion is from the hurt you had to live through as a male... try and put yourself in her position...I don't think it was his transition... I think it's that, she didn't go through the hours that you and I have had to go through... I have read here somewhere that her dad just went to Thailand and when she came back she was a woman in body... I think that's the anger in her... so please I'm actually trying to show her we are not all ass holes... and it's for sure men do have that title more than women... so just be the bitch and she can take it...lol... sorry I couldn't resist... and yes you are right I know plenty of girls that still have their old plumbing...


Jeanine 4 years ago

Anna I do see that about her and that is unique... but you just said all of us are somewhere on this spectrum and we must educate the entire binary crowd if we ever really expect their respect... don't leave... I need someone else that can at least give a real opinion... I'm just trying to see both... which was our speciality.... remember...lol hope you have a good day... and thx so much for trying to help... there are a lot of us who are searching... we need to help one another ...


Anna 4 years ago

Jeanine I can't talk to someone who tells me "I must" this and "I must that" and spouts clichés of masculinity and femininity at me all the time. You're as bad as the religious crowd citing the bible/whatever as evidence for their belief's.

.

izettl: You're clearly trans phobic in my opinion, if I were your second mum I'd have done it without consulting you and I'd have cut you out of my life altogether.

.

I'm done here, there's nothing for anyone to gain.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Anna~ first of all I speak of my personal experience on this hub and I don't mind if you don't agree...some will some will not.

You are as general about minority groups as I supposedly am about male-female roles. Just because trans are a minority group doesn't mean they should automatically garner acceptance and use excuses to do whatever they want because of their inner pain and what they deal with. They inflict pain as well as I am not the only child of a trans to feel this way...funny, but there are many so that must tell you something. There are many non-minority groups that don't fit in in some way too.

What I don't understand is what makes a trans "feel" like a woman on the inside if I am doing too much labeling as far as nice person and not nice person. Please tell me what it "feels" like to be a woman. Did u go through transitions and milestones throughout your life that a typical girl to woman does? No, doubt it. Many trans pick ou their bra's much later in life while I had to pick one out at 13 and grow up from girl to woman.

No woman would intentionally harm their children unless they have a mental illness or are a bitch.

Also I did not have an unhappy childhood, it has made me the person I am today and learn what I'd like to teach my children and what I'd not like to teach them.

Let me ask you then...what makes you female...if it's not genitalia and you state you feel more like or identifu more as a woman...why? Please educate me? DO you like women's clothes better? Does that make you a woman? Do you like the way a woman looks? Does that make you a woman? To be treated as a woman and go through what a woman goes through from birth...certainly makes me a woman. And that is my point. You say I can't assign characteristics and personality traits that make someone more like a woman or more like a man...so what is it that you identify to as a woman...what makes you feel like a woman? I'm interested in your definition.

I've lived as a woman all my life and I can tell you that my experiences as one and society treating me as one (both good and bad things apply) make me a woman. Men tend to not get women's emotions and thus I believe why you don't get my "spirited" personal account of my experiences written on this hub.

I take a person for a person and the irony of the title on this hub is also for women who act like bitches- it is a title for male and female. Literally my dad's personality changed overnight (from my end and what I saw) right after my dad got his change. It was a transition for him but not for me- I had not time to "transition" while my dad had years to think this over and act upon it slowly in ways enough to hide from me.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Some things make you say damn... lol... Anna, how is your judging both of us any different than us judging you... are you super woman...lol... Mary wants to be a super woman... and try to boss the bull around... lol... hey lighter up...I swear if I met you I would run the other way... and I like most trans... maybe you are God... clue me in if you are... and I can say you must do this are that all I want... this is America... and I have the right to treat you as you act... if you act like a nice person... then I'll treat you nicely... is that a word...lol but if you are an ass... and you are definitely more male than female... in your words... you frustration is so masculine that I have to laugh... you could be the most beautiful trans in the world and if you had that attitude, all of us would be suspect... ease Jack... if you really are a Jill... she don't act like you... or are you that one all glorious trans that we all should meet... give me break... we all live here on earth and it's as much mine as it is yours... so... may you always get it the way you give it to others... hard and cold... no love, and no lube... you deserve what you get... so good luck with that feminine charm you have been sharing so freely here with us today...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Anna~ I know a few trans...and I wonder how many children of trans you know. if I am so cruel and most of the many children of trans I've chatted with feel the same as I do, then you are grouping us all into one selfish and cruel category. I didn't ask my dad to stay around or even marry my mom and help "make" me so why am I being selfish for wanting him to take care of me as a child and nurture my feminine side instead of make me feel bad about it.Why do I owe him anything? As a aprent I put my children here on earth and I owe it to them to give them what I've got... in terms of love and lessons and building them up- they don't owe me.

Most trans I have heard say they feel like they were born in the wrong body and my point with this hub is that the body is not what makes a woman, a woman- it is not the boobs. It is deeper than that and it seems to me you don't want to get too deep about this. You see. women try to hash it out until we understand each other whereas men are right-fighters, always wanting to be right and if they can't they go in for the kill and if they can't win they don't want to play... as you've demonstrated here.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Cornelius...please elaborate....


Joan 4 years ago

Thanks so for sharing your thoughts about your Dad. I am TS and have two daughtes so this is interesting conversation to me.

I do really agrea a body does not a woman make. I have met people who profess to be TS and can present completly as female yet act so much like a guy. The converse happens as well. TSs that struggle to "pass" yet are clearly women when you talk with them.

But, in all this the definition of woman is so much a construct. Nuturing, mind changing etc... has basis but certainly does not apply to all people that consider themselves women (XX as well). So what is it really? Do you have to be attracted to men? Certainly not.

I do resonate when you say YOU feel like a woman and don't need that validated. That seems to be a theme with your Dad. She seems to need to be validated by clothes, sterotypys etc... It is a tough journey though if your aren't fem enough then same on you TS....

She was raised at a time when gender was more rigid and it is hard to break free from that. As you say, 55 years of living as a guy is hard to throw off.

The hope for all TSs is to deal with this very young and not have to deal with all that.

I hope you and your Dad can feel closer someday. Your talking about this is SO great. I know I am very close to my girls and I can't imaging not being so.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Joan~ thanks for sharing your story. A lot of trans will find solace in what you say baout being close to your children. I think a lot of it has to do with how you have that discussion and how much you involve your girls in that process. My dad sort of threw it in my face and I knew for the longest time she was living a double life and I felt like the authentic one was as a woman and the "fake" one was with me. Clothes, make-up and hair was a big thing to my dad...as being seen as a woman. In the last 11 years (since he has been she)she is more gender neutral and dresses and acts that way.

I think I have the utmost respect for trans because they are people who have to go through such a rough and long road to becoming someone they are comfortable as.

I wrote this from the perspective that one day my dad was very male to me and the next...had a sex change from head to toe. This happened all in the course of a year+ so it was fast. my dad opted out of living as a woman first. He went overseas to have the operations. So to me, just because she had the body of a woman, it didn't convince me. I view women as much more than appearance and yet a lot of trans focus on that aspect.

I am happy to hear of your relationship with your daughters. You have obviously done something right even though there is no handbook. THank you for sharing.


Sindee 4 years ago

Jeanine plz contact me I need help understanding my boyfriend he's might be two spirit and it's tough right now for me my email is cindynoriega@me.com thanks


Jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Sindee, this is an open forum so we can talk here and then I will contact you if you still need more contact... google two spirited people and it will get you on your way... most trans do not know our history and only listen to what the medical community it selling, which is surgery and a very expensive road... that doesn't always assure success for the trans and his or her family.. It why izettl has opened up to our community ... in order for us to have some place we can feel safe and discuss what is happening to us as well as our loved ones...


Francesca 4 years ago

Thank you so much for writing this hub. I recently dissolved a 7 year relationship with a transexual. We have two small children together (I'm only 24). This hub gave voice to so many of my feelings - I wanted to scream, yes, yes! at my computer screen. Through this whole process this is one of the first things I've read that actually expresses all my feelings instead of just looking at the transexual like a victim, and finally given a voice to the feelings I have. No matter what pills he takes, clothes he wears, etc etc, he is not I woman! *I* am. My feminity has been threatened to the core by all this and hearing you talk about my innate ability to nuture, my selflessness towards my children - YES - that is what makes me a woman. He's the most selfish person I have ever met, just like your dad. Maybe they're all this way. Thank you so, so much for expressing your feelings and helping me understand mine.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Francesca~ I am so glad you have found this genuine to your feelings. I try to be honest and people who have been close to trans know many of the feelings I had. I'm so happy you found this hub and know that many have gone through what you have and similar. It effects the whole family. Be wise with your children when explaining all this someday.


Jeanine 4 years ago

Francesca, I am so glad you have found these hubs, you'll get an honest opinion here so buckle up... I am so sorry you had a a selfish TS... not all are selfish, we were one the most honored amongst men... advisers to kings and queens, yet now for the last 100 years we have gotten bad advice from the medical community... one day we will be back in our place of honor... and we never were supposed to be women, just had an innate ability to have a primary understanding of both men and women... we all fall under and umbrella that the therapist do not even mention in todays sessions... we are Two spirited individuals... meant to help all of you in the binary system understand one another... again I am so sorry you have had a bad experience... and so sorry the children had to go through this... we were great and hopefully we will get a handle on who we really are and return to greatness...


Francesca 4 years ago

I'm glad it's not everyone. In my case, I just don't understand how he commited to me and purposely had two children knowing he was this way, and never ever expressed it until our lives were built together. I had no choice in the matter, I was totally blindsighted by it. And now, he's taken off... the only thing that matters is his gender indentity issues, not myself, or our children... he quit his job when we split up and has not provided in any way since... I was a stay at home mum, for five years! I don't want to comment just to rant, but expressing what I have gone through... it has been horrible. And I see what you've seen, Izettl: the awkwardness when he tries to act like a woman, seeming to be even LESS sure of himself, but at the same time wanting to show off. Leaving his children, going weeks without even seeing how they are... what woman would do that to her children? Never ever acknowledging anyone else's feelings about the subject, or trying to understand how anyone else may feel, when he's had his entire life to try to figure this out, and I had weeks between when he 'came out' (as a crossdresser, not even as transgendered) to when he left. How can he abandon the man in him and refuse to see that person, that person is there... the woman is there too, perhaps, but the man I knew didn't just dissapear. He says the adrogen blockers make him less angry, less violent, more in tune with his emotions... of course they do! If I took testerone it would have the opposite affects on me, that's the nature of the hormone! It was just so refreshing to have someone else express these feelings when I have found no other, candid, raw memoirs of family members... only the experience of the transexual, and never how it affects everyone else. It was something I desperately needed to read. Thank you.


jeanine 4 years ago

I am so sorry he has lost his mind at this moment, and that 's what happens really... the medical community has done our us a great disservice in telling us we are women trapped in mens bodies... I am two spirited and we were one great advisers to kings and queens all over the world... we are men actually were holy men sent to help the binary system learn about each other and to help them grow in their love for one another... we do and did have a fundamental knowledge of both man and woman... but we are men... for some reason our history has been hidden... you can google two spirited people and see who we were... the strange thing today is not many trans know their own history... and hear is what you ask him... you have already touched on it in one of your sentences ... I always final ask each of my group..." if I am a women and I do have many of the same characteristics that all transsexuals have... I went through five therapist before I would ever believe I have it, but I do... "what woman do you know that would actually hurt her children on purpose... not one.. I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children, even the one I live in" and that's what I have to ask myself each day... I am what the doctors all call transgendered but I stayed with my family for my wife and kids sake... because real women will sacrifice anything for their kids.. the only woman who would ever hurt her child on purpose is one who is mentally ill... again I am so sorry, this has happened to you... try and help him come to his senses... praying for you...


jeanine 4 years ago

Francesca, he committed to the marriage and the children trying to solve this problem he has and you are right the man doesn't go away... if you talk to him/her, you must help her see the way she is going about it, is very male in behavior... I call it the "git r done" syndrome...most trans still act like men, just barreling ahead.. Their gonna solve this thing. Show him how he is going full steam ahead and help him see he will never be completely a woman, he will never not be their father, so the only thing he will be is not a husband. Women are very patient and take their time and always... always consider others... especially their children, it's innate in all women... you must find someone he will listen to... he will still be partially the man he was born and learned to be... he can't get away from himself... at the beginning of transition, there is a euphoria that takes over... I have been lucky in that, my love held me and our history (40 years) kept me from going off the deep end immediately. take one step at a time... help him see by rushing out to change and leaving you and the kids, is such a typical male behavior.... a true woman whether a genetic girl or transsexual will take her time and try not to make mistakes that can never be relived... again I am so sorry that he is acting like a man... a true trans woman will listen, for she knows what love is and what it's not... praying for you and the kids... keep your chin up and move toward helping him come to his senses... tell all of his friend now, if he has any... enlist every person you know to help him... there is a beautiful transsexual that writes here sometimes and she says it is not worth it, she gave up her family and can give him a real perspective... she is a beautiful person inside and out... her name is Celeste Richard, you can find her here on hub pages and her email is listed there on her page, if not Izettl can put you in touch with her... you can make it through this, don't give up... he is just drunk at this moment enjoying being the woman he has always thought he was... it's an addiction just like anything else... but very dangerous... more like a meth addiction... destroys everything in it's path, unless he can get a handle on it... praying...


TIMETRAVELER2 profile image

TIMETRAVELER2 4 years ago

This was extremely interesting to read. I have often wondered how the families of sex changers deal with this issue. It's got to be very painful and even more confusing for them. You seem to have come out of this mostly OK, but I don't envy your position. Voted up and interesting.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks TimeTraveler! many different emotions come with this, but I know who I am personally and as for figuring out my dad...who knows. I am Ok with that though.

Francesca~ I know what you mean. My mom I dont think ever got over the fact that my dad committed to her even when he knew he wanted to eventually be a woman. I also cant get over that fact. Why start a life and involve others purposefully knowing what you intend to do (become a woman).

We clearly (and I still do) see the man my dad still is. It's plain as day.

I agree with Jeanine- we've communicated for a long time now. But I agree about the trans "being drunk"- my dad was impossible to be around the first couple of years. I guess I would say all this mostly takes time- time to get over the shock, time to heal, etc.


suzettenaples profile image

suzettenaples 4 years ago from Taos, NM

Very interesting article and I understand your points. But, try not to be too harsh on your father. He has to live with himself, and if he is more comfortable with having a female anatomy, so be it. I would just accept him for what he is and how he wants to look. I have a feeling he may be adjusting to this new role for the rest of his life. He may not know who he is or who she is yet, but it takes some individuals time to mature. It may take him/her some more time to mature. He/she is cronologically 55 or older, but obviously he/she is still struggling with sexuality. I know it's weird, but just try to accept him for what he is, and don't judge him. Now, having said that, if his remarks about your sexuality become aggressive or abusive toward you, then I would not have hin around. I would make very clear that I would not accept his belittling remarks about your sexuality. Think of the psychological pain he has gone through all his life and the psychological pain he is going through now. You may have to be the bigger person. You may have to be the adult in this relationship.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

suzette~ I realize my words may sound a bit harsh- it's after all, how I feel, not necessarily how I act. Nothing about me doesn't accept him- I do accept him, but it still seems odd and it pains me to say, he/she has not earned the right to be called a woman. Anatomy does not make the woman. I accept my dad feels more comfortable with the anatomy but it still doesn't seal the deal in my mind. I think that's also why through transgender therapy they have the person live as the opposite sex for a while before getting surgery. Walk a day in their shoes...

My dad criticized the girl and teen girl and young woman that I was. I think finally now that I've had two children, I might be a woman in her eyes so then I wonder why he/she was not held to the same standards. Of course I know thats impossible, but I also remember that same belittlement from my dad.


suzettenaples profile image

suzettenaples 4 years ago from Taos, NM

Like I said, do not accept belittlement from him - he needs to respect you and your choices as well as you him. If he can't do that then there is no relationship. Perhaps beware jealous and saw you as competition. Bizarre, I know, but that does happen between mothers and daughters. I fee sorry for him, too. No the anatomy doesn't make the person. I guess my point was, if he wants boobs, so what? What do we care? May be with time he will stop hating himself ( I think the reason for his behavior toward you), accept himself and accept you. It just sounds to me that between self-hatred and jealousy of you he/she has a lot of adjusting and growing up to do. You obviously are the adult here. I wish you the best in this relationship, but if it is abusive I'd just end it.


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

suzette~ yes i understand your point and my point is it's strange in general how our society can say you are man or woman based on only your genitalia. To be or feel like a woman trans (male to female) need sex changes, etc. yet there is so much more to being a woman.

The irony that I tried pointing out in the hub was that growing up my dad made fun of me when I was tryingto become a woman- i didn't like wearing dresses so he didn't think I was girly enough and my point is i feel like a woman not because of what I wear or my boobs or what's on the outside, it's more what's on the inside. Among trans i think there is a general misconception of what it really is to be man or woman.

Anyway like I said I get your point... and thank you. I realize now the dynamics of being bon a girl and my dad wanting to be one made things difficult between us.


Jeanine 4 years ago

The tragedy it, most trans do feel like what they think a woman feels like inside... but if one has no real basic fundamental knowledge, it is really impossible... kind of like when I dreamed as a kid I could drive a car... when I finally learned to drive it was nothing like I had dreamed... so to transition late in life one does not have the time to actually learn to be a woman... I have worn this suit of being a male so long, I couldn't take it completely off even if my life depended upon it... it really is the saddest thing that ever happened to me... caught between a rock and a hard place... is very descriptive of what this life is like... not fully man nor fully woman... then the abuse from society if we choose one or the other... some times the longing for rest and peace just over take us... and we go on... no longer a part of any group, because no group is fulling enough to stay in...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

makes a lot of sense Jeanine.


DzyMsLizzy profile image

DzyMsLizzy 4 years ago from Oakley, CA

I can only imagine the pain and shock of dealing with this in one's parent.

My husband and I are acquainted with a few transgenders and transsexuals, but they are not relatives, and we see them only on infrequent social occasions, so do not consider it any of our business to ask a lot of personal questions about the why's and wherefore's.

What has puzzled us, however, is that at least two of the transsexuals we know..have "become" lesbians. What?? It seems counter-intuitive, but as I say, none of our business...so we are still in the dark on that particular outcome.

This was a very brave and well-done hub. Thank you for sharing your most personal insight. Voted up, awesome, useful and interesting.


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Dzy, you are correct in that the Lesbian thing is quiet a phenomenon, seem counter productive... I am Two spirited and I live with a woman, but it's because I fell in love before I knew about what was causing my inner angst... I do believe there is a logical reason trans fall in love with women... we are more comfortable with them to begin with, women are more compassionate in helping us deal with our weaknesses, and also it still gives us some kind of normality... lol... sorry but that's true... also there is a propensity to be with someone who is not so demanding sexually... women fit into that part of the picture for us... plus men are very scary, especially when they are angry... most of us have an edipus complex only it is from a female point of view... we have lived with the fluidity of gender for so long that we often bounce back and forth even after transition... and is one of the primary reasons you see trans women still approaching problem solving like the men they were or have practiced being all of their lives... "men being women, acting like men" huh...lol..lol.. it's true..... there are vast numbers of us who do not have the operation for one reason or another.. so there is a large group of us that still have the little guy still with us... in most of the cases you are referring to ... we are homosexual men in women's bodies... but because we do not feel or have been steeped in religion to the point that we can not accept we are... homosexual... we change into being women... I know that's confusing but it's our life... those of us that believe we are lesbians really are just men who feel more comfortable in a womans body... and those of us who can attract men and have a relationship with them generally do... like I said I am of the head that we are all Two Spirited individuals and transsexuals are just the enuches of the day...


DzyMsLizzy profile image

DzyMsLizzy 4 years ago from Oakley, CA

Hi, jeanine,

Thank you so much for that thorough and well-put explanation. It does make sense, now. I don't believe in judging people because of who they are, or what color they are...if I make a judgement, it is based on behavior: if someone acts like a jerk, then they deserve to be told off. If they simply identify with a different 'group,' that is their business.

I appreciate your honesty and your courage in such a detailed and personal explanation.

The only other 'comment' or observation I have to make about 'trannies,' (or cross-dressers) is on the humorous side: "Dang! They walk in high heels way better than I can!" I accept that with a loving shake of the head. I don't like heels anyway--they are not comfortable. ;-)


jeanine 4 years ago

lol... very funny... I hate heels for the same reason you do... they hurt my feet...my back and my knees...lol... they certainly get a guys attention though and after all that's the idea right... does this skirt make my butt look to big... no it's your ass that makes your butt look big...lol.. now only a woman who has been a guy can really give that opinion...lol...

on a serious side, most two spirited people do not know our history and once we begin to search for more than the medial community has told us, the train begins to come of the tracks... because I have been in love with a woman all of my life... and love my children, I began my search years ago after my first of five...lol.. therapist told me I was gender variant. I looked her in the eye and said "you are full of s&)*..... but by the time I had gotten to the third one and she said the same, I had to take a more realistic look at what was overwhelming my life.... I do believe we have gotten bad advice from the medical community... they are so giddy that that have a live human experiment to work on instead of monkeys, that they can't help but tell us to go ahead and have the operation... does it not seem strange to anyone else that all...all of the medical community says... "we don't know what causes this behavior"... what if this is not a behavior but a different side of humanity... a sect of people... a different tribe so to speak... if that hypothesis were to be true... changing us into women, would or could be kinda of like cutting down the rain forest, then realizing the cure to most diseases were there in the trees... my own belief after finding part of our hidden history, and I don't know why it is has been hidden, still trying to piece together what and why that truly is.... I have come to the belief that we are not women trapped in mens bodies, but a sect of men... holy men actually who have and have had since the beginning of time a fundamental knowledge of women and men..... a solution perhaps to the inner challenges of man and womankind... in the 138 indigenous tribes of the world, that most anthropologist say were here on earth as our earliest ancestors we (Two Spirited individuals) were found in each tribe as advisers, shamans, spiritual leaders, marriage councilors and proveyors of God's love and understanding.... our gift or gifts were created to help man and womankind to understand one another and learn to respect and love each gender for what it really represents in God's amazing creation of both man and woman.... we were and have been advisers to Kings and Queens all of the world for thousands of years.... we even had our own apartment on Cleopatra s barge... yes we were great... and will be great one day and returned to our places of prominence. We were held in high regard within the circles of greatness... on the other hand, since the medical community has been helping us... these last hundred years we find ourselves... OMG... the pride of the "Jerry Springer" show... tragic in so many ways... now I do realize that some of my rambling may or may not have something to do with my own psychosis but that being said... there is a history that goes along with these feelings and bits of knowledge that I have... or have found.... here is my one driving question I continually ask myself and my friends... and I do love me from gender variant friends... TS are some of the most talented sweetest women and men on the planet... damn... here's my question... " if we are women in mens bodies and the therapist all tell us we are, what genetic woman do you know, that would hurt her children on purpose, as so many of us do as we rush to transition.... not one, unless she is sick, or under great mental strain, I myself would kill any man who tried to hurt my children... even the one I live in... understand" there are no women who would hurt their children on purpose... so if we are truly women... why do we continue to go running down that road of... "git r done".... why does the medical community continue to tell me I will be more if they make me less (the operation). I am two living as one... and the one thing that makes me most unusual is that I am two... and have always been two... anyway thanks for listening...


Jeanine 4 years ago

Hey Dzy... some take offense about calling us "trannies" or even crossdressers... we are gender variant is all... I know something about women... and I know something about men... some times I few free like her and sometimes I feel serious like him... the tears are the same... whether they are joy of pain they come from the same place...they are both me... and both separate as themselves, at the same time... it definitely is a pain in the ass...for him and yet for her, she is in total bliss... lol and I mean that literally... sorry I couldn't resist... but you should know how we feel... my of us are so sensitive that when it hurts our feelings it just gets all over us... and you understand that right... like a woman describes a hot flash... flushed and wave like over the entire body... hormones really do make you feel that part of being a woman... so there is some justice for you girls when we have to face those moments that feel like years... with sweat rolling down the small of your back while you are trying to appear to be as cool and beautiful as you can be... why do you think the black dress is so popular... it doesn't show water marks...lol... anyway thanks for commenting here with us... Iettl is the main reason I fought very hard to not transition in these last few years... it was only through her honesty that I have learned to lose some of the selfishness that we all carry....as TS we can be very selfish... but then again can't every woman... ouch... did I say that out loud... see... He's still there... and "kids say the darnest things"...lol...lol...lol....lol. these hubs are life lines to more of us who want to be outlaws and not do what the medical community says...lol...lol...I like being a man who understands women and a woman who likes having a mans body and mind, well partially the mind of a man... and partially hers...but one finally realizes that there will never be a day, that is the same... so the question is... is this just my psychosis or am I really like this and have been living this way for over fifty years... if it is my psychosis, why haven't my friends warned me...lol... of who I am and am not...lol...lol


DzyMsLizzy profile image

DzyMsLizzy 4 years ago from Oakley, CA

Begging your pardon--I meant no offense in my use of terminology. I simply had no other words to use, not having been on that side of the fence.


Jeanine 4 years ago

I'm sure you meant no harm... I appreciate your involvement in the conversation...I was just telling you where you could know in the future... I'm not offended at all... some of us believe that we are here in this position simply because we are Hyper sensitive men... which is why I said it really... there is so little education on this disorder that all of us are trying to define who we are... I will be glad when we all can just talk and not be offended but I'm not sure any of that will ever happen...


izettl profile image

izettl 4 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

DzyMsLizzy~ some of the same things that puzzle you, puzzle me as well. At first I tried to understand those details, but now realize I probably never will. Would love to know why the change in the first place- what exactly drives them so intensely to become opposite gender in an age where more men have feminine qualities and roles and more women have masculine- the lines are blurred more than ever.

Jeanine is my friend and can explain a lot of this- has helped me immensely. Thank you for stopping by and taking the time to have a conversation on this.


nybride710 profile image

nybride710 4 years ago from Minnesota

I came to your hub from a link on my own about my experience with my ex-husband. Unlike you, I didn't have the courage to leave the hub open for comments after the first few months. It is the only one of over 100 that I ever disabled comments on. Like another reader commented, I was completely blindsided by the trans issues 10 years into our marriage. I had NO idea! But sometimes it seems like the trans person is the only one allowed to have feelings. I was called many hateful things because I dared to express my hurt, anger and sorrow and say that his behavior DID hurt me and our children and had a huge impact on our lives.

I liked how you compared it to any other addiction. That's what it was like for my ex. We could have no health insurance, no money for school supplies for the kids and live in a run-down, unsafe house, but he was spending money on his fix behind my back. I guess all I am trying to say is thank you for being honest about your feelings. I tried to that and got sick and tired of being attacked.


jeanine 4 years ago

Hi Nybride, so sorry that my community was so ugly to you and your family... I am trans but chose to stay with my wife and family, but the fight to not transition has been on going for about fifteen years and I only came to a release of some of my selfishness after finding izettl's opinion on how much this thing hurt her... it basically was the only thing that got my attention... I didn't transition fully because of the hurt it would cause my children... or the hurt that Izettl spoke about... it is like an addiction and usually the relationship with the wife has gone the way of the wind... but the children are the keys to the heart... again so sorry for you and your family...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

nybride~ Both my mom and I can relate to being blind-sided. I knew about my dad being a transvestite but many trans and professionals will agree that most transvestites so not become a transsexual.

"it seems like the trans person is the only one allowed to have feelings. " you nailed that on the head. So true. I feel that way all the time when discussing this topic and find myself having to defend the fact that I have feelings about it. Its one of those topics, like homosexuality, that we are not supposed to have an opinion or feelings on even though I've had a friend who got divorced after being blindsided that her husband was gay- and she's not supposed to be angry? Of course, she should be, you should be- it's natural.

Yes, I can tell you've been through this- the clothes and money for the trans needs is more important than anything. Everything else is literally falling apart. I am so sorry you had to endure this.


Mary 3 years ago

Hi Izetti , i read your hub last year and i wrote a comment , i was not very polite and very respectful. Please take in consideration that i did not born in north america and English is not my native language . the reason i was reading these kind of hubs who talk about transsexuals is to understand how people in north america feel or think about transsexuals , and i had been shocked by your hub , i felt that i chose a bad place to immigrate to . but now since i understand more your feelings , for you this hub is your way of expressing your feelings ( and i am sorry if i did not understood that , because where i came from we do not express our feelings in front of every one , i do not say it is wrong but just i did not understood it ) . i was reading in a public health site and i found these 2 lines : "Acknowledge that your parents and siblings will go through their own “coming out” process. At first they might be angry and upset and might even make hurtful or spiteful comments. These might be hard for you to hear, but it’s better for them to say their feelings out loud than to keep them bottled up."

now i understand moor your feelings and please accept my apologize for the comment i wrote before.


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Mary~ yes I remember you. I think that is a great quote from the public health site. I bottled it up with my dad because I did not want to hurt her feelings so I was upset on the inside and I wanted to give a voice to it. I write with honesty because my therapy began a few years ago when I wrote my first on this topic. When I tried to look up this topic in the internet I only came up with trans being exploited or sexualized. So I wanted to give a voice to family members and put actual info out there instead of the garbage that was out there. Now a few years later you will find better info out there- I'm certainly not the only one talking about, but years ago it felt like I was.

I think it's ok to have conversations about this...not that trans are not accepted as a whole group of people. I think people will come around to it..and are. It was just so personal for me and I had no one to talk to until I wrote about it.

i am sorry for our previous words to each other but I think it's ok that we all got to talk it over...even disagree...and now we're here on a positive note. Thank you for coming back and letting us know how you are.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

I thank you so much for posting your story.

I am currently married to a transgendered person, a man, who is taking female hormones and cross dressing. We have no children. I did not know any of this when we married. We have been married for 3 years.

After a lot of tears, embarrassment, and a lot of difficult situations during our marriage I'm glad I found your hub.

Considering your situation your father sounds crazy. And I believe despite the protestations in the LGBT community, that people like your father and my husband do have a mental illness. This of course, can be, and is debated. Along with what is believed to be the proper and correct responses and feelings towards the outward expressions of our family members' mental illness.

After reading your hub, and giving it more thought based on the perspective of yours that I can add to my own, is that these people are mentally ill. And somehow, by boiling it down to that simple, in order to explain why they do the things they do and have done is currently giving me a small measure of peace.

My husband is not vindictive or mean, but he is selfish and prioritizes dressing up and applying makeup and taking hormones over his family and the social and family planning/ familial responsibility effects it has on us.

He hugs me, and falls asleep on me sometimes and I feel like I'm holding and comforting my teenage child instead of my husband. When I ask him if he is wearing a new dress, he blushes and poses coquettishly like a young girl. He's had a rough upbringing. And I'm sure that in that upbringing lies most of the cause. My husband does not act like an adult.

He goes to work and does well at his job. He dresses like a man there. He seeks out younger friends. People who are troubled. He does not want the responsibility of a having a child. After reading your hub I'm 95 percent certain that pushing for and having one would not be a good idea because of what you've had to go through. Not because you sound anything unlike a fantastic person, mature, caring, and whole.

You've been dealing with this longer than I have and in a more intimate way. So I say, GOD BLESS YOU. I think that these people do have mental illness. We are all people before gender. And I'd like to think that our self worth and comfort could be in evidence no matter what bio gender we are, in whatever body we are in, despite what clothes and makeup we may or may not wear, and not have to rely on self mutilation to feel at peace with ourselves.

If anxiety is a problem, maybe the anxiety should be treated. My husband says that testosterone makes him feel crazy. I don't doubt that the female hormones make him feel calmer. But when he talks about getting a sex change that's when I feel like the LGBT medical community is doing him a major disservice.

I don't know if I will stay with him. At this time, it's not looking good. He is a good person, and I feel bad thinking that I would leave my husband because he has a mental illness. It's a life still in progress. But I thank you so much for posting your hub and experiences. Thank you and Bless You so much.. And congratulations on your beautiful children.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Sorry about all of the grammatical/ punctuation mistakes. I think I ran out of time to edit.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

In response to your last post I think for a lot of transgendered people in their lives there is a lack of positive modeling for the gender they are.. In my husbands case there was an absent drug addicted father. He also saw female sexuality used to make life easier and get attention. In my husbands case it was his mother who had to turn to escorting to support him and his sister. Many of her dates would take her to a hotel and book a room nearby for the children so my husband would have to sit there in the hotel while his mother was being ravaged my strange men. I cannot even imagine.

Also in society today how many positive attainable role models are there for men? On tv, men are either really wealthy and successful, ( which can be an image that is kind of unattainable for a lot of men). Or he's the Larry the cable guy type, or the clueless semi loser office rat nerd. Wealthy and arrogant, or working class and somewhat dim.

Just go into a store and see the floor space dedicated to men's vs women's products.

Women have larger and more varied choices in clothes and products that it is acceptable for us to shop for and be excited about. Women get attention for their bodies and what they wear in ways that men do not. Maybe some men want to be looked at rather than just doing the looking. But when men show off their bodies in this way it's deemed strange unless he completely ripped like a body builder or something. A woman can be out of shape but if she has one nice feature, be it breasts, or legs or what have you, its more socially acceptable for her to strategically reveal it in order to get positive social attention than a man.

Men's fashion trends don't even allow for that kind of thing. Especially in the US where a man can't wear a speedo to the beach regardless of what type of shape he's in without people thinking he may be gay or European.

Meanwhile, women's bathing suits are allowably as tiny as possible as long as a woman has the bod for it. People may think she's slutty for wearing a tiny bathing suit but if she's got the body they'll think positively of her for being in shape.

So maybe a lot of men want attention like women have attention, but our society doesn't allow outlets for it. I can't help but think of the Real Housewives series on Bravo. Those women are known for being showy, and dressing well, and their husbands are relegated to the backgrounds. When any of their husbands tries to get more camera time they're often ridiculed as wanting to be one of the housewives. Maybe it's not a bad thing that men want as much attention as women. They just don't have socially acceptable outlets to be as flashy as women.

Women's sexuality holds a lot of power, and maybe for some men that seems more of a attainable type of power that they can have for themselves. Especially if they feel powerless in other areas of their lives.


Elderberry Arts profile image

Elderberry Arts 3 years ago from Surrey, Uk

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It is refreshing to have someone talk so openly. Voted up and shared


lrc7815 profile image

lrc7815 3 years ago from Central Virginia

I love your brutal honesty and than you have bared your soul on what must be very painful. Throughout my life I have tried not to judge the choices that others make for their lives. Your Dad's choices affected those who loved him and he will always pay a price for that. It is life. The one thing I learned from reading this is that you are an awesome woman who clearly understands what that means. Real woman don't have to pretend anything. It's just who they are, all the way to their core. I applaud you. It's a beautiful thing to be a woman and know who you re.


jeanine 3 years ago

Ann, I do find your comments strange in a way... the mental illness thing kept coming up so I get it... you think at TS have a mental illness... I done agree or disagree with that statement but I can tell you his opinions do come from how he has and is dealing with what happened to his mom... if you want to be with a man for the rest of your life, then you need to leave... because he can never be that... is mind will not let him... he so detest what he saw as men that he never wants that for himself... it's not that he wants more attention from men... so if you can deal with the fluidity of gender then stay with him... it grows into a relationship very similar to being with another woman... which after the sex is over, which is usually when we have kids... it's kind of nice to be with someone that's not always thinking of getting into your pants... good luck... he will not get better... as becoming a man... he will become better as growing out of being a teen girl... so it's really up to you and what you really want in a relationship...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Ann~ I sense some irritation and rightfully so because the selfishness of trans can often be overwhelming. The hardest part is there isn't a happ compromise. You woud like him to simply be a man you married and he would like to be a woman. My friend abover, Jeanine, is basically living both and while I have the utmost respect for her, she is not living the way she wants to, but only because she is not selfish and has put her family first. As you can see there is no compromise- somebody or many people will be hurt no matter how this plays out.

I think you are onto something with the mental illness. However, I don't think trans itself is a mental illness but somethign related to whether they have it prior to obsessing over being female or it turns into that. I think there is something there prior to and then it turns into this trans manifestation.

Much controversy on this...just watch a show on the controversial therapy for gay going straight and I realized the therapy for trans is all supportive and not many question their decisions or go through a full mental evaluation...other than spending time living as a woman.

Elderberry arts~ thank you for the supportive comment and votes!

lrc7815~ Thank you for taking my message in it's intended way. I think it took me time to learn what a woman was and not be ashamed or unsure because my dad's definition was different than mine.


samowhamo profile image

samowhamo 3 years ago

@ izettl

I am sorry if your dad has hurt you in some way by doing this. I personally feel a great deal of sympathy for tanssexuals because of the bashing they get from a lot of people but I do understand that sometimes it is equally hard for there family and friend. Well keep your chin up and please try not to be mad at or hate all transsexuals I am sure they mean no harm in what they do.


trans101 3 years ago

How about you learn something, step outside the cave of ignorance and embrace the sun knowledge, which will tell you to accept all humans for who they are, not who they are trying to be, or where, we're all shadows on the way to oblivion, we we'll all one day expire and die, gain some wisdom of acceptance, accept you are ignorant and then learn how not to be ignorant. It's the only hope you have of ever understanding that woman you keep calling father.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Trans101- what are you talking about?

Ignorance? The "woman you call father"??

Why don't you learn to have some empathy? You sound like another one of those people that thinks their feelings and wants are law and everyone else just has to bend. Please continue making everything about yourself as I can tell you do. Don't consider anyone else's feelings. And please continue to be dismissive and insulting when told of someone else's pain. It's a really good look for you. And obviously we could never expect anything better out of you.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

I just wanted to thank you again for posting your story on your hub. Before reading it I didn't have anyone that I knew in person or online that had been through a similar circumstance and reading your hub has helped me so much. Thank you again.

(I apologize if this is a duplicate post)


Jeanine 3 years ago

Izettl, I feel the same way... I am trans and love my family and will go to my grave trying to put them first instead of myself... Trans 101 is a dinosaur in the TS world... there are a lot of us now that don't demand that each of you change just because we are changing and there are a lot of us that are trying not to hurt those closest to us... Trans 101... it's not ignorance it's simply a new and different attitude than your own... just as women and men are changing today intonew creatures... so is the trans community... we have been screaming for years that we need more rights well they are coming dear, but they will not come with you trying to force everyone to see it your way... it's not the worlds fault that you are different... and it's not there job to accept you... it's your job to be acceptable in the society, so if you want to keep yelling I'm trans ... I'm trans and you will have to accept me... good luck with that .... I know my own journey is not to be trans but to be a woman and live my life... if you want to be a trans all your life then fins... I have no problem with that, but if you really are trans, what is your goal, to be a woman like you say you are, or to get the rest of the world the make way for Mrs Transsexual and miss thang... it is not my desire to be an advocate all my life... I just want to be left alone and be the woman I believe I am and have been all my life... now tell me again what it is you want to be that makes all the rest of us stupid... sounds like a man to me... women are much more articulate than you seemed to be expressing, so... ignorance is following you dear... now if Izettl wants to expressed herself... how is that any different than you expressing yourself as being trans... it's not... so suck it up and either be a damn woman or be a transsexual.....which is it for you dear... I know it's not easy... but what is easy in this life... wake up, just as you said and accept people as they are... well if you want that from her... surely you being the bigger woman... lol... you can afford the same idea for izettl right... hope you are doing something about that angry spot you are trying to scratch over here...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Sam~ you are absolutely correct. In general Trans do not mean harm, probably want to be left alone and accepted at best. When it's in the family though somehow hurt transpires. I have other hubs about this and the main idea is that there are lies and those are always hurtful. My mom was lied to by my dad and so was I as a child. Whether it's an intended lie or not, it usually works out to be a hurtful mess.

Trans101~ interesting but mostly strange. What is "sun knowledge". I accept people as they are, but famiy dynamics are much more than not bieng hateful or staring at a trans walking down the street. Anne married a man and she got someone who wants to be a woman. Not only that, trans typically put that before their families and become selfish, even obsessive about womanly adornments. Anybody would be hurt by that. It sounds very hateful when you say the word "ignorance". So basically you're judging. Your comment has no meritt.


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jeanine~ You have a way with words and know just how to explain in a way i can't. Trans 101 can't force people to accept them and being hateful isn't one way to set an example. Trans 101 is acting the way he/she doesn't want others to act toward trans.

Ann Stacy~ so glad you found this cause I wrote it for others like me, like my mom. There isnt much support the families of trans.


Jeanine 3 years ago

I support you all... trans and the family... we have got to start caring more on both sides... until there are not two sides... just side by side... stop the lying ... that's stops the hurt... when the hurt stop... the hate will go away... peace is a real place...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

I wanted to post again since I'm still going through this. I was thinking the other day about your mother and how you said that you also had some resentment towards her at one time for putting you in this position with your father in whatever capacity she had. It's given me a lot to think about. I think you said that you've now forgiven/ come to peace with your mothers role in all this and that's good.

I wonder if your mother knew your father was like this when they married. I think I also empathize with your mother as well because although my husband and I am divorcing, inhave wrestled with staying with him. Even with all the madness. There have been good times and horrible times in our marriage. I grew to like cuddling, when he was dressed somewhat gender neutral, and beleive it or not, I enjoyed not having sex. Strangely enough, I actually liked just cuddling and not feeling any sexual pressure. I grew to like the societal benefit of being married, even as my home life was turning more and more into a freak show.

I will start dating again when my husband moves out this month. We care for and love each other, but it's getting to be too much. He began to grow breasts and now wears bras all the time because of the hormones he's taking and I had to stop bringing him around my father so he wouldn't know and freak out about it. Just a few minutes ago my dad asked if I was bringing my husband with me for Christmas, and I said no. My husband and I will not be living together anymore by that time.

Strangely enough, as much of all of this has been, my husband said that he wants to help me have a child. He is going to go to his LGbT doctor and find out what he has to do in order to give a sample that can be used for IvF, or IuI. Oh, and he also has pamphlets lying around about sex reassignment surgery.

There are moments where I've thought 'oh- he's just bluffing. He'd never get his genitals cut off.'. I find myself crying - a lot when I'm alone a knowing that is he's come this far, it's not unlikely that this will actually happen. I cry because he hates his body and himself so much that he would do this. I cry because for some reason he can't see that his body was perfectly fine the way it is.

Out of respect for my marriage I won't meet anyone or talk too long on the phone with anyone until we are separated and he's moved out. My husband wants me to come to his office Christmas party with him the night before he moves out. He's moving to a one bedroom apartment with no furniture and plans to use an air mattress for a bed. He says eventually he will have enough money for the surgery.

He says he will visit the doctor because he wants to help me have a baby. It's tragic. When he's not around I cry about a lot of things, and I also think of you and your mother. I wonder if she was like me. Did she hope he was only bluffing when he told her things? Did she think that if theynhad a child tha somehow it would be fine- like kind of close enough to normal that it would be a small thing, something easily adapted to? Did she see him as a person she loved, her spouse, and not a gender really, just the person she loved? Was she comfortable in her life then and scared of the unknown? Would she have done it again if she had known? Not done it at all? Only got out sooner?

It's devastating divorcing, although it is the only solution. My husband is firm about leaving and I have tried my best. I know that if he didn't leave I would have only lasted the next few weeks before the stress, 3 years in the making, finally took me down. I had to research beta blockers on the Internet to find something to naturally calm me down. (my adrenaline was always up the past few days, my heart was continually racing).

I'm glad you are finally finding some peace and have a lovely family. Maybe I will find a new one that I will love too. But I swear to you, more than anything I wanted this one to work. And that is when I think of your mother. As long as she loved you, which I know she does, I have to believe that she tried the best she could because I have and still am. It's terribly hard. I don't think many people want to leave their spouse when they loved them as individuals.

I have images of that scene in Titanic whew Rose has to let Jacks hand go and sees him floating down into the ocean. That my spouse has been shot and we're in a desolate area without transportation and I'm trying to drag his body wherever I'm going. It's so had but I wonder if those are some of the feeling your mother faced. And since he didn't leave the family, she found it easier to stay. Luckily, the choice has been made. But, I admit, at least right now it is not a great relief.

Since seeing your dad after the change, has your relationship improved up to now? How are your feelings towards him and your mother- have they plateaued or is it still something that changes? I am not considering using the sample if he ever produces one, but he says he wants to do that for me, so I'm not going to stop him. If anything it seems like he wants to do this to me he loves me, so I'm not in a emotional position right now to discuss it.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

How is your relationship with your mother now? Has your relationshipmwith your father changed or improved since the last time you saw him? Did your mother know he was like this before she married him?


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Ann~I respect my mom less because she did not leave my dad sooner, she was with him at least 10+ years after knowing he cross dressed. Ironically he got the divorce. I am disappointed that she lowered herself to stay with him and compromise herself in that he did not give his all to the marriage as she did. I hope that helps to let you know that- I would have repsected her more for letting him go long before she finally did. I know, like you, she wanted it to work, maybe also hoped he was bluffing, but I wanted her to be happy and she wasn't for so long. That's what kids want for their parents as much as parents want for them- to see them happy. My mom has had a weight problem since the divorce and I think her self-worth was damaged on some level because she settled for his actions that compromised their marriage. She put him first and he put his female clothes and things he ordered in catalogs ahead of her. She dressed down while he dressed up. Don't compromise yourself.

All of this has gotten me to accept my parents as they are a little bit more. I wish my dad and I discussed his transition a bit more, but honestly I think that itme has expired. In the beginning when it was a good time to ask those questions, we got in an argument about everyhting else, and didn't speak for nearly two years. When we began speaking again, the trans topic was never discussed or brought up.

My relationship got better once my dad stated that she still wanted to be known as dad by me and grandpa to my kids. Those kind of things are difficult to navigate- not knowing what they want to be referred as- mamm or sir, etc. 12 years and it still isn't much easier to not offend her in some way, unknowingly. I still mix it up sometimes and refer to her as him or vice versa.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

Thank you for that. There really is a 'trying' imbalance. So I agree with what you said. I tried to rationalize by saying it was easier for me to try than him for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't really make sense. He's said he doesn't want a divorce, just that he's moving out and that if I want one in order to marry again that he will give it to me.

I completely see how it would be about self esteem and happiness. Parents are supposed to be positive role models for their children. I've seen my own mother make unreasonable sacrifices for my father -although nothing this extreme. And I think as much as I wouldn't want a child of mine going through this, I don't think a child wants their parent going through it, at least just as much.

If you don't mind me asking. Do you think your mothers staying in that situation with your father led your relationship to be not as good because of that choice? Do you feel that because your mother didn't take you and leave that it kept you from trusting her to provide a better life for you? Would you have rather her attempted to give you a step parent rather than keep you in the same home with your father?


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

I forgot to add.. Or would you have her rather her taken you away and raised you by herself?


AnnStacy 3 years ago

He's in the process of boxing things up to move out next week now. He says he's trying not to think about it. That is all really sad.

I'm extremely stressed out. I think when it's over it will feel like a major relief. However, now, seeing all of the boxes piling up in the living room it's still really hard. I make lists in my head pro and con, why I'd want him to stay or leave. Despite how I feel I can only think of one pro for why he should stay, and that's only for minimal financial ease. It doesn't make sense. I know I don't feel this way over only a few hundred dollars.

But there a long list of cons of why he should stay. I have major stress over his many issues, his friends and family have been in laws and friend nightmares, he cross dresses, takes female hormones, is extremely selfish, only wants to entertain himself despite that not helping to better our future and family.... The list goes on. I seemed to be hanging onto that at least when he was trying to have fun most of the time he included me. It's really tough, but I'm hanging in there. He should be moved out completely by next Saturday.


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izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Ann~ Not to be a little corny here, but I watch Dr. Phil when I get the chance. It's my guilty pleasure. Anyway, he always says it is better for children to be FROM a broken home than IN a broken home. I love my mom but have never gained respect back for her. It still maked me angry that she didn't think it would ever effect me to see my dad walking around in full slips and dressing up...without ever putting up a fight with him. My dad had a huge effect on my self-esteem, never feeling girly enough because I preferred jeans over skirts. I don't think it would have been bad in any way to take me away from that situation. My mom would have been a better role model had she stood up to him at least, but she accepted all of it.

There is a twist to my story too. At 10 yrs old my mom and dad finally divorced (after total of 18 yrs marriage) and after my dad cheated on my mom with another much younger woman. Who expect that from a cross dresser? But that shows that even my dad did not respect my mom. After being with my dad for so long, my mom lost herself and who she was as a woman. I'd say it's all cons to your husband staying, but I'm bias.

My mom did attempt to give me a step parent- after the divorce she went out and to bars a lot to find someone. Would have been nice just to have my mom. I never felt like a priority to her (I was an only child). She always said she did it for me, but not true. She did it all for herself- it was easier to stay so my advice don't take the easy way right now because it would be much harder later on. I got to see the selfishness in my mom from just staying and going along with it all and in my dad from putting his dress-up before me too. Not a good situation. I love my mom and have relationships with both my mom and dad, but do not respect them. Sad, but true. My mom said people didn't divorce often back then, but that excuse still doens't hold up to me.

And perhaps because I saw my mom do what she did, it has made me strong in my relationships. I don't put up with crap- I would not sacrifice my kids or myself. If it's like this now and he knows he's hurting you, he will never respect you if you stayed. I've seen it first hand.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl,

Thank you so much for that. I know that you are 100% right. I need to think about what you said and let it settle in. But I agree with everything you said. Thank you so much for sharing what you know


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izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Don't want to sound harsh because I love my parents and know they love me. I also know my mom sacrificed her self esteem to stay in that marriage. She wrote a couple of hubs on here. Look her up on hubpages as Char M


Jeanine 3 years ago

Ann, keep your chin up, I believe you have to let him go.... I am also a two spirited individual (trans).... but stayed in the body because I chose to try and put my family first... and although, there is damage to my own person, my children have turned out to be strong wonderful, loving men... I know Izettl and I always talk about if we as trans are really women, what women do you know that would intentionally hurt her children.... not one... so your guy is still a guy in my eyes, he just wants something else and hey this gift we all have is on going and doesn't go away... I still struggle everyday, but am so proud to be my childrens father and I do find some strange affinity with being like their second mother because I was able to put my wife and family first.... I think I have had the greatest opportunity to learn through this process, that women do suffer in silence.... and that suffering and pain in my case has turned into an unspeakable joy when I see my sons living their lives without the burden that Izettl has explained so well... somehow I feel more of a woman for the sacrifice that I have lived for my family. And although it has not been easy, I must say that I would have gone the way of so many others of my sisters if I hadn't had a wife that stood up and demanded that I do the right thing for my family...again I found some relief in realizing that most genetic females would listen to their best girlfriend, which in my case is my wife... my entire family knows of my condition so I am not hidden. The allowing them to live their lives has allowed me to explore what a real mom might feel... I am an artist so my life has been easier than most because I was never bound to wear male or female clothing... which for us as women or the women we believe we are inside is a major part of what we feel is missing... the reality is after the transition, more than likely after the newness wears off, she'll still slip into her favorite jeans and her shoe size will remain the same and probably her fav shoes will still be her sneakers... what has happened and what generally happens to all of us as trans is we become euphoric in that we had the nerve to finally take the step to transition and believe me when I say, there is not much he can do about it...it really is on going everyday, all day long...so that being said... try and be her friend but do not subject your children to this man in a dress at this time...and God will make the funds up, just look for them in places you haven't looked... it's a long shot but if you can get him to look on the web for "Two spirited" people, he can see where our tribe came from.... the transsexual phenomenon is just the latest Eunuch to our tribe... because you can get new equipment, it's kinda the new vogue thing to do...and I do have many friends that are truly women inside.... the most convincing TS I know though is a young girl from New Orleans and she has always lived at a girl or since she was 9 I guess... she is absolutely drop dead gorgeous but she is also the first to ask our group, if you are all girls why is it you are still with women...lol...now that to me is a real girl question... ask him does he want a man or a woman... that lesbian thing in the TS community is strange to me...in the general population gays and lesbians are about 12 to 17% of the population... in the trans community it is 77% and some believe even higher... that's makes no sense to me as a woman... or a man... as a woman if I am going to get new equipment... you damn well better believe I want something real in there I can feel... as a man, if I am going to spend the buck on this new shiny...lol... I'm gonna get my monies worth or I am gonna take back...lol...lol... so, that being said... most TS in your husbands case are just little boys with a fantasy to me... now that being said, it's still very real to the little boy so I feel for him in that respect...I think all trans that know before they marry and transition are women... I think most who do not transition before marriage with children, should never transition.... again the reason I say this is the true woman would and will never do anything to hurt her children on purpose... unless she is sick or mental in some way... again let me say... you are very brave but you also deserve a real man... just as every woman wants... now that being said also... I am in love with the woman I live with for over forty years...she is my everything... and I am a very happy woman living in this mans body... with my wife... which would make me Lesbian in the medical books... but I learned long ago that I don't really fit into any of their categories... and I think that's the way it should be... what your boy has is body dysphoria... and hey it's a real thing... if you want to keep him... then keep him... the girl inside of him needs you to stand up and tell him what he is going to do... if he is doing hormones he is already on the journey to his teen years and you remember that with your mom... not a pretty picture...lol... so you either end up being her mom for the next ten years or you strike out on your own adventure... I would suggest the latter... believe me... when she finds out out unaccepting the world is... she will be back... but you must talk with her before she leaves and let her know that there will be love for her but no return... even if she tells you she'll put her girl back in the closet... she can't and she shouldn't really... this trans thing is a real thing... I just have a different look because I stayed and toughed it out... and hey it's tough everyday...at this age... I want to and do dress even chance I get... so it is damaging to my own character to not have transitioned fully... hormones will help... and make her feel more whole... be her friend but not wife... she has a long road to travel and this road is bumpy to say the least... look for something for you and your children... only a selfish man chooses himself over his family... a woman would choose her children and her mate... in your husbands defense... our tribe(two spirited ) were known throughout history as healers and advisers to kings and queens also we were fore tellers of the future events that would happen to man and womankind... a lot of us believe that many of us are jumping ship and becoming women because of the coming age when women will rule... and we want to make it to the front of the line so to speak...it is a collective fantasy that we all have... strange but true... you can ask your husband and he has it... the fantasy is that he is being forced to be a woman...and he is kinda... but it's his own discomfort with the male body... or his being hyper beta as a male that is really driving him to be this way... the alpha male has never felt this feelings... nor will he ever... so in a way, this is nature culling out the weaker sex in men... and I know how harsh that sounds but hey, it is what it is... praying for you... you will make it through and come here, Izettl and I have been here for years now...we both believe there should be more support for the families of these men who are on their own selfish journey... and I say that because I know the journey... and it is a beautiful gift if one does not damage those around them... family first... family first... it's the the thing that women... real women do... "no matter what... I would kill any man who tried to hurt my children... and that includes the one I live in... hope that makes sense... read it to him if you get a chance... if he is a woman, it will affect her... if he isn't, well then you have your answer... and will see clearly the path you must take... to protect your children... is the only thing...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Thank you Jeanine and Izettl,

Jeanine,

Thank you so much for your post and sharing your experience. I have spoken with him and that is definitely not how he feels unfortunately. I did get my answer. Because based on what you've said- there isn't much of a woman in there. I think it is body dysmorphia or else something else I don't understand because he is only willing to put himself first.

I am so proud of you to hear you describe your feelings of love and protection towards your family. My self esteem has been damaged but I think that even without a sexual relationship with your spouse anyone would want their spouse to want to protect them and their family like that. Thank you for your prayers. I'll need them. I started contacting divorce attorneys today. He wanted to separate and stay married legally indefinitely I guess because he wanted me to hold on emotionally and continue to be there for him, and so he could do whatever he wanted, but I know I have to move on with my life completely and not continue to be used and hurt and manipulated by him.

You know, if he had been like you I would have admired him and I would have wanted to stay, never thought of leaving with my whole heart. I think I would have been happy. Initially i would have been concerned about the things i didnt understand, but I tried to be understanding, and it was only me making the accomidations. It was only me working to protect, support and take care of him, while I was left to take care of myself. I would love to live knowing that my spouse loved me and wanted to build and protect his family.

That's not what it is though. And you're right. I do deserve to have a man who has none of these issues. Most importantly, someone who can genuinely care for others outside of themselves. Thank you so much for your words and support. These days are dark. But I have faith that one day, and hopefully soon, the clouds will lift and I will be restored again.


Jeanine 3 years ago

They will lift dear and he will one day come to his senses... I have another beautiful friend who gave up her wife and child and she regrets it to this day... she passes and is a very good woman at heart and very helpful in all she does... but by the time she realized what she has done, her wife had moved on and remarried... it's the saddest thing... but she helps others of us to stay strong and see our family... and in reality that is what has happened... he does still love very much, it's just some triggers we carry as two spirited people that others do not... the problem lies in that will lost our history... we have always been here... we were there at the pyramids, there when Moses parted the sea, there with Napoleon's side... we were counselors to the ancients. We are here today, but just not openly doing the jerry springer show... lol... we are and were men who know a little about both sexes, we were never meant to be women or men... we are both and as long as we stay both we are unique... it's when we listen to the medical community that we get confused and I can never understand how the Doctor making me less will make me more of a valued person... I am both and there are many of us... trans to us are our beautiful sisters... immature sisters but still our tribes... look at this way... if you had a rare mental ability and your parents had no education in those things... then they might consider you crazy, that's what happens to us when we are small boys... we have gifts but our parents are our guides, I was lucky in that my father and mother were from the country... they did n't say either one on me was wrong... just on this day I was him and on this day I was her... they valued both spirits within me... so by the time I ran in to some people who thought I was weird... I just agreed and went on with my life... now it is not an easy thing to live this long as both, but the key has been my family and mostly my wife... she is the easiest person in the world to love... but she doesn't take any of my stuff nor did she when I was acting up and being more the teen girl sometimes in wanting my way... thankfully we lived through that and now I can at least make a meal on time and serve it to our family...lol... and hey that's not an easy thing you know that... guys are so funny, they think we just run in the kitchen and whip something up...lol...lol.. Izettl and I always laugh and say, if trans had to stay with a baby for a year changing diapers there would be a lot less full transitions... I had three in diapers at once so, I learned to absolutely love this male body I have ... I am a man... I think I am I think I am I think I am...lol... that's how you can see if she is a man also... if she would have a baby and then consider a second, only women can do that... I could never do that... ya'll have selective memory... you don't remember that the bowling ball actually came through miss thangs yes ma'am...lol.. damn... I 'm a man I'm a man,,, I think I am I think I am,... etc... etc..lol... alast you do deserve a man... and if she is really a woman and I hope for her sake she is... she deserves one also...


Jeanine 3 years ago

Anne, I went back up and read some of your post again, and there is something I can address about the child your husband was forced to be... when love is absent from the child especially trans, we do some strange things... I know in my own case, my father had such an undying love but also such a need for my mothers love, that there never seemed to be any love left over for me or my sister from him... now my mom was so busy servicing him that we didn't get as much love as we needed from her also....so in my own family, that one hyper need from my dad, changed us all. My sister became more aggressive , while I became more submissive... she figured she would win his love by being more like him... I figured I would win his love by being more like my mom... but as you can see, both of his children wanted more love from him... I share this so you might see, a small boy in that room next too his mom's as she is being ravaged. He doesn't know what is going on in there, all he knows is there is some kind of love in there... and he wants it... when love is denied we will do anything to survive the hurt and emptiness that is looming so large in out own lives. So part of your husbands picture comes from those days... he saw his mom dressed just as he wants to dress now... in his mind he is getting ready to be loved, because that's what he saw was love between a man and a woman.... she would more than likely be dressed for the night, maybe a little slutty, you can actually see how she was dressed if you tell him you want an escort for the night... he'll replicate what he saw... young minds are so delicate and we all are changed by our circumstance... unfortunately for your husband, he is a prime canidate for prostitution, so he does need to get help.... for although he says he is not interested in the men... he is interested in that love that he missed from his father and in the small boys mind, his mother was getting that love she missed from his father in that room with all those other guys... he wants what was in that room, although he may not even know that t this time... I could be totally wrong, but hey you think what we all have is a mental illness anyway, so take everything I say with a grain of salt...lol...lol... sorry I couldn't resist saying that...lol... might as well laugh as cry dear... I'm telling you this where if you do have the chance to break into his fantasy, you may save his life... it is very dangerous being transsexual in this world, one of dies every few minutes if you follow the numbers... mostly from violent deaths inflicted by raging men... do not have a child with this man, although this is considered a mental illness at this time, as time goes on, there will be more support for the argument that TS is in our DNA... that discussion is for another time....

This strain or side of homosexuality is blatantly deceptive... most of us want a man deep inside, yet, either because of our hatred for men, which is probably where your husbands thoughts lie, or our spiritual taboos will not allow it in our own lives, or like mine, I just needed more love from my dad, so I wanted to be my mom, I thought that was the easiest path to him loving me, we all really do have a problem with telling the truth and just saying... I'm gay and I need a man... our own belief system gets in the way, so we make all these hoops for our own person to have to jump through... and here's the kicker... when we are children and start to grow into being teen boys, this type of child is repulsed that he could have these types of thoughts deep within him... so here comes some insight... when we first start to make these hurdles as children, we tell ourselves, well I would have to be a woman or a girl before I could really accept a man within me... and that thought... that one simple thought... holds the homosexual urge at bay for most of our lives... that one thought also accounts now for the selfishness that consumes our lives... on one hand she continues to say to him, I could never like a boy as long as I have this birth defect of having a penis, and the one thing that has saved his life as a boy every other time turns on him... he has obsessed for so long that he is really her deep inside... instead of admitting he is gay and wants a man, he has replaced the gay thoughts with I am really a girl or a woman and I just want to be her... later as we become her, it's alright for a woman to want a man. I hope you are getting this insight, because I believe it is where we are as TS individuals... so the one thing that saved us as children... "I would want a guy if I were a girl... but I'm not so I don't want a guy anymore"... so instead of us accepting we are gay we have this massive stream of why we can't accept a guy into this body... understand... we are caught in a hell that we created for ourselves... this behavior manifest itself to the rest of you as massively selfish, when in reality, we are running down the road screaming, I am a girl, I am a girl, not so much because we want that, but because our socialization has not matured any further than that of a young teen aged boy... who has not and does not know how to become a man... didn't you say... my husband still acts like a child.... he is dear... his social behavior is still back at the hotel room next to his mom's... now you can say, we are mentally impaired... and you will be right... how depressing huh... sorry... but I needed you to hear where we really are... the truth is, if he can pass and he is young enough or really if he can pass, he will be fine with a man finally and he will be a great friend... if he can not pass, he is in for a lifetime of hurt... I say all of this to make sure you understand that the selfishness that we all appear to have, is really the trigger we have all used to keep away from dropping to our knees and servicing that cute boy over in the corner... because our self esteem is and has been shattered for a very long time...

unfortunate to say the least, but it will not get better for you... if he handles it right, it will get better for him/her... try and get her to do her face before she transitions... it takes years and was the best thing I ever did... to clear the face really does do more for feeling and looking like the woman he thinks he is or the woman he really is... and now of us can really say he is or he is not... we are all a little mental.... how bout those guy who walk the tight rope across the grand canyon... yeah that's normal... abby something... lol... abby normal...lol... anyway... I am so sorry you have this teenager on your hands... damn that has to be hard... not having a child as a baby, then all of a sudden having a teen girl, that's to big of her panties... oh my... do I feel the spirit of slap coming on my hand... I know you love him or you wouldn't have given him your hand... try to stay friends, but find a man... that's what he's doing... he just can't tell you yet... and the worse part is... he?she can't tell himself yet... will be praying for you...


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izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Ann~ not sure if you got a chance to visit my mom's hub about her experience, but one thing she mentioned was that my dad offered to live under the same roof so my mom and I would not have to move because if they divorced, the house would have to be sold. My mom said the "deal" was like an offer selling her soul to the devil. I do respect her for finally putting us before my dad. She did not take him up on the deal. Now should you settle for the living conditions your husband is offering you.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Jeanine,

I will probably write another response soon, but I reached a part of your post that had me sobbing so uncontrollably that I couldn't finish it and I'm still crying now so I don't know I'm typing but I'm trying but I want to get this out.

I didnt say what I did about mental illness to disparage anyone. It's the only way I can explain the changes in thinking he has because of what he has gone through. What you've described about him wanting the love in the room when his mother was with other men rings true to me and makes me cry. I think my husband is making a mistake leaving me. I think he will turn out to have similar feelings as your friend who regrets having left. But I know, sadly, that his leaving will be a better thing for me. There is a lot of pain, and when he is gone I will be able to heal. But I cry because I know my love for him is very special. That I would have carried him although it was breaking my body, I would have carried him until it killed me. And how many people would love him like that? Who would do that? I cry because I think he's walking away from someone who would have done anything to make his life better. And I hurt for him because of this. This and I know that one he leaves I know that I will not be back. I don't know how to not make that sound not narcissistic or self centered, but I mean that in the purest way possible.

That it's like he's my child and i know that once he leaves he will be lonely and that he will struggle, and I never wanted that for him. No one in his life is caring for him the way I do. And the men he tries to meet I know aren't going to take care of him.

It's doubly sad because I know it seems like I've required no true reciprocity of those feelings and consideration from him. And I didn't because I came to accept it wasn't going to be there from him to me or anybody else. But I wanted to protect and care for him, and that is what I focused on, hoping in a possible pipe dream that if I was good, and took the best care that he would love me to an extent in the way I love him, if only because he needed me.

A month ago I found correspondence on his phone between him and someone he met online. Someone that he had sent pictures of himself dressed up to. He was looking for approval on his looks. And ended up meeting with this person. After arguing about this after days had passed, he admitted that he had been scared. (he went to this persons house.- after finding the messages that contained this persons address I also went to the house and spoke with the next door neighbor that said that this person had men and women coming constantly, and that a woman once said she had seen him with a man).

While I was talking to the neighbor the man came up the stairs. Even without the neighbor telling me. I knew that it was the person. I looked in his eyes briefly as he passed me and there was something crazy in them. He was a burly, compact strong looking man, about 5'9" about the same height but stronger than my husband. When he passed and went inside the building, I wondered to the neighbor if I should talk to him. The neighbor looked frightened and said not to because " you don't know how people will react when they're cornered".

According to the correspondence my husband went to see the man three times. The first two times he left suddenly, and after the third time he didn't return. He said they didn't have sex. It almost doesn't matter. He lied and he went. But when we were calmer he admitted that the man scared him and that he knew that those were they types of people that were out there for girls like him.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

(continued)

Maybe it's my bias, thinking that he could have been hurt by that person. But I think it is common sense. My husband admitted the experience was scary, and real life situations occur where people can be crazy and strangers can hurt you. The first two times, my husband used a work emergency as an excuse to leave this persons apartment. Ironically, the same work excuse he used on one of the occasions to leave me and go to this persons place.

Thank you for saying what you did about the self- absorption being the only thing keeping you from running around. My husband says that once he leaves he will be freer to dress up and I guess try to meet people. He said he hasn't "cheated" on me, but respects me too much to do what he wants to do while living in the same house as me.

Maybe, even though it's not happening in my head, you are right. He is gay. And all of the trans stuff is an excuse that he's giving himself with guilt over what he holds as a belief about right and wrong. But either way, this is what he says he believes. That he is a woman inside, that he does not like being married, that he loves me, but he wants to do things that he can't do when he is living with me. He wants to stay married indefinitely, but said if I want a divorce that he will pay for it. I want one, even though my heart doesn't want one, and I think he will be getting us that divorce around the first of the new year.

Please tell me more about your feelings again Jeanine. Are you saying that you really feel that you are gay, but somehow have come to mask this by dressing and making it more complicated somehow? I think I understood what you meant, but I don't think inunderstand completely or may have misunderstood somethings.

Izettl,

I haven't read your moms hub yet. When you said that she had one it actually scared me a little. I think I'm afraid to read it and cry a lot. I'm scared to see my situation in hers. Scared to hear that for some reason she still misses him and is still hurting, because that is something that is scaring me the most. I don't want to be scarred by this for the rest of m life. I don't want to have it ruin my future. I will read it today. I am nervous though.

For me, staying married to my husband feels like that bargain with the devil. He was talking about taking a vacation together early in the next year, and staying friends that hung out on the weekends. For me, that would be like accepting the very least of marriage. Having a husband in name only but being used, humiliated, and not allowed to have the very least in being able to plan a future with your spouse. Alone to handle all of the bills yourself, alone to figure out a way to make his life apart more comfortable. A servant, a bowed backed nothing, offering whatever I had worked for to him at his door. A defeated mouse, a wretch. His wife. A perversion. Nothing near a place of honor and protection that a wife should have.

I could see myself (which I will not settle for- even after all of this) driving to his new apartment, paying the toll myself, picking him up, taking him to the mall or wherever he wants to go. Watching him pick out clothes at forever 21. Going to dinner, probably paying for my half of the meal or the whole thing if he tell sme a story about how finances are tight even though his moving out made them that way. Delivering him back tom his apartment, seeing that he's ok. Asking if he needs anything. Is he warm enough, is he eating, does he have the warm clothes he needs, how's his commute, work.... And then getting in the car and driving home alone. Wasting time on my husband who has left me as a single person. I'd have the ring and nothing else. That won't happen to me.

But it's horrific that that is actually an option. And I know it's happened. There are a million crazy things on this earth that happen. But I hate that this is an option that is being given to me. It is a sad devils bargain. It's not even a traditional bargain. I only suppose it would be if the legal title was all I cared about. I will read your mothers hub now. I never navigate away from this page because I'm scared to lose it, but I think I can figure out to open this site on another page and find hers too. Thank you so much. God I wonder when the crying will ever end? Did you cry much when dealing with your father? How long did it take before you felt normal?

Do you ever personally feel ashamed? I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I feel a lot of shame and it's hard to know why.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Izettl and Jeanine,

I want to thank you so much again. Thank you so much for your support and your prayers. It's been hard, but the both of you both and God have been the light that I can see in the darkness I am living in right now. The postcard of a sunny place with fluffy clouds in a blue sky that I can look at to prove to myself that places like that do exist, and maybe one day I can live there too.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

One more thing.

I don't think my husband feels good about leaving. I've been crying everyday. I keep it from him mainly, but I've been crying. He's just been feeling sick.

He's packed about 40% of his things, but has stalled in doing more for days. And he's been having an upset stomach and feeling tired and achy. He can be seemingly ok, and then we'll talk about him moving or not staying and he'll say he feels tired and sick. This morning we were talking about it, he left the house to go to work, a few seconds he was back and throwing up in the bathroom. Over and over like 7 times. I went in to see what was going on because after the 3rd retch I knew it was serious. We both wondered after it was over where all of the liquid came from, because he had only had one cup of water this morning and he threw up liquid fully 7 times.

Although in the long run, and maybe also the short, it's good that he moves out and we divorce, I know that he knows that it's not going to be easy or the most comfortable existence for him. He says that it's done, and that he has to go now because he's signed a lease but inside I think he knows something. I've never seen him with stomach issues like this.

He says he doesn't even want to think about any of this. That he'll think about it once he's gone and moved out. I've been trying to deal with this now.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Jeanine,

What do you mean by "clear the face". You said something like, do the face before she transitions. Do you mean plastic surgery, or electrolysis or something.


Jeanine 3 years ago

Oh Ann, I am so sorry you are crying... I didn't mean to take you there... but alas... more than likely if he went to the guys house more than once, he has had sex with him... and you can bet he definitely did go down on him... ouch TMI...lol... and more than likely but not always he is lying, and probably cannot bring himself to tell you and even admit it to himself... you must protect yourself from here on... he can give you ...AIDS... so be really careful... he loves himself more than you... and I know you want to hold him and tell him everything will be alright... and if he was bright enough he would know that it's easier to be a woman with a woman by your side coaching you... he can't get over the sex... and that proves he is still mostly a man... there is no emotional bond between most guys in his shoes... just the sex... and you know with girls it's based on the emotional involvement... the most hurtful part of this disorder is the lying... it's what hurt Izettl the most she often says... and in my own case, it is very hard to tell the truth... for one the fear of being rejected, keeps us lying but also there is something else... some weird trigger that says on the inside, it's just me and no one else understands, so it's my business and no ones else... he doesn't realize that you have been through puberty already...

I know you were not trying to disparage me dear... so I'm find with that and I'm not to sure you are not right... we may all be crazy...lol... I am so sad because he cannot see at this time that you are the wife of a transsexual... he can't though... and you are right he will regret it... another sure sign that he is a man and not a woman... a woman would go through every painful moment living and reliving whether or not to leave...or stay... you know I'm right... a man... well he's got to git er done...lol... how goofy is that...lol... again I am sorry to make you cry... you have enough to handle without me going over there... to clear the face is electrolysis... it will give him time to think and reflect on how he is to live as a woman... plus it does more for your look than hormones for the first few years... and it feels so right and correct that you automatically feel better about yourself... no more shaving that guys face... ouch... and oh so smooth... pass that moisturizer will ya...lol...lol... Kiehls will do for me ma'am... sorry I couldn't resist...

the burly man is what is known in my circles as a honey or sugar bear... he is gay but needs a woman with some extra bits down here in the panties to make it work for him... he will love you with all of his might as long as he can go down south and visit with your boys parts... sorry dear if that is to crude...it's just as difficult to say as hear... honey bears can be dangerous, if you make them feel they are gay... they can rage even more so than that testosterone tribe that he comes from... again I will say it a second time, you can not have sex with your man ever again without protection... say it to yourself now... you can die from what he is doing and will be doing here for a while... now... your hubby is a child but he is not your child so don't go down that road... that road is closed... if he had chosen to stay with his wife then that would be a great place and like you said, it really is the place that he needs the most... but again... he thinks what he wants is that guy that was with his mom...she branded him for life... trying to look after him, she took him right to the other side, not even meaning to... it's not her fault though, it's his for continuing to obsess on what was in that room... what I wished he knew was he could break the cycle right here with you... and you may be able to get through to him... but be careful remember he has lied all of his life, even to you so he is the best... I know... we all try and do it... my wife knows when I am lying and that has done me some good, because she would say... oh please... you are lying... and I was... so not being a good liar has helped in some ways in my own journey... hey you were not being bias, that sugar bear could have hurt him, even have killed him and this conversation would not exist..

He has cheated... he went to another man's house and lied to you... wake up little suzie wake up...lol... might as well laugh as cry... that BS about I feel like I'm a woman in side... he doesn't know what a woman feels inside... that's what this hub is about, he can feel what he things a woman might feel like but that's it... I told my group, I could never be a woman, I have worn this coat of being a man so long, I could never fully take it off, and because I have not practiced all my life being a girl, there is no way I can make up the time I have lost and become the girl that I think that I might be... so I am both I am two spirited because I have been that all my life and that approach is really the only one he can ever achieve... he can never be fully man because of this ansgt that holds him and makes him feel he is a woman... but can never be a woman because he was born and has practiced most of his life being a man... we are two... two spirits living as one... it's simple to me...but probably not that simple to single spirits like yourself... I used to dream about being one or the other... then I finally said nope... I'm neither... but now izettl was right when she said I am a trans that decided to stay in my birth body... but not always happy with that choice... I would rather be the woman I believe I am inside but my practical male side says no... and I love him even though I created him to protect me and live in your world... what happened is we are all hyper sensitive little boys, so sensitive that our parents didn't see or couldn't see because they were bustin their own butts to provide for us... I don't blame my folks, but I do wished some times they had gotten some help for me... but if they had... I would have had these wonderful children and they are sooooooo wonderful... and grand kids... hey... get your butt in gear and help your hubby, but get out there and find a good man who wants you and from that desire children will bless his life... and in that respect I am all man and all woman... I long for that some times... the feeling of having life growing in my belly... to feel that first kick... to lay in the arms of a man and be over powered... to birth a child and hold him to my breast... all the things you thought of early on... but hey, it is what it is... so I have made this work for me in this situation... and you may be able to get to your guy like that...

it could be viewed as a bargain with the devil but more than likely it's just a bargain with a very confused guy... so don't make that deal... it will turn on you... and do I feel gay, absolutely not... I feel that I want a man just like you do and I deserve one at that... but that's not what I thought when I took this woman's hand that I married... and hey I love her completely and when we were young, she was the kinkiest chick I had ever met... my first sexual encounter with anyone and when Jimi Hendrix asked ... are you experienced... she answered with a resounding ... yes... she worn me out and still does... but my natural inclination was to be very oral... oral first... intercourse came second... but I learned and she was an amazing teacher... now many years later, and after hormones, there hasn't been intercourse in over 22 years... strictly oral... exclusively for her... she treats me more like the wife and she is more like the husband, but very fem but still very much the boss...

you feel shame dear because you feel he duped you and he did in some ways, but he may not have known... I didn't really know or I would have never married... hey I'm so glad I did though... it has been quite a ride...lol... and so lovely in so many ways... hey that post card with the fluffy clouds... is just photo shopped in although our in Wyoming the skies are never gray and the sun sets like no where else in the world... lol... and thank you for coming to Izettl site..she is a joy and one smart cookie... and tall and beautiful.........


jeanine 3 years ago

it wouldn't let me finish... but here it is... you will survive and go on to find happiness... he unfortunately will never be happy because he has bought into the lie that if the doctors make him less ... he will become more...that's just not true in out cases... we are born this way and in ancient times we were revered for our opinions... now we are relegated to the jerry springer show... there are many of us who you never see... some go to hospitals and lay healing hands on patients... some prache and lead many to know our God... a ton of us are musicians... look closely at Jagger, Bowie, the singer with Aerosmith... we are hiding in plain sight... comedians , actors, drag queens, stay at home dads... we are here... you just have an immature one... and he may not have been able to help it... his background sounds much ruffer than mine... damn... if I'm a girl why can't I spell...lol... keep your chin up baby girl... either she or he can still be your friend... trans is just like anything else... you can lead us to the waters... but you can't make us drink... and that's sad... I always tell the young ones... you can live your entire life exactly like you want to... change is within not without... but just like this hub says... it doesn't stop me from wanting a nice C or D cup and wishing this one piece fit better in the crotch...lol... I guess they were right... a girl just can't have it all...lol... praying for you dear... so sorry you are having to face this at this time... go find you a young Santa... have your pic made with you sitting on his lap...lol...


jeanine 3 years ago

please forgive all the typos... I hope you can read this... there is no spell checker in this program and whew... I can write a goofy sentence... what did mean to say is, if I had known and my folks had gotten me some help I "wouldn't" have had these amazing kids... and my one piece of advice to you is to find someone who will give you children...they are the delite of my life and truly because I have always been there with my wife to nurture them... I have been able to stay... part of my transition as visualize being their second mom... and I second needed that... I would be crushed beyond repair if I didn't have a good relationship with my kids... start your healing now... it will take a moment... she (your hubby) is very confused at this time, so much so that she is going to do what she thinks is best for her... you can't blame her for her decisions, you have to look at it for what it is... it's really an opportunity for you to both be happy... for alas... in his mind, and I say his on purpose... he can never be the man you need... but... in her mind she is doing the only thing that she can to move him out of your way... in her mind... you both need a good man... remember in "Shawshank redemption" the movie..."Get busy livin or get busy dyin"... it really is true... Ann... you deserve the best so take a year to heal and then get on with you life dear... it's a good eight years before he/she goes through her own puberty as a young woman....and even if she has the great transition of us all... that still puts her around 21 to 24 years of age in her social clock... so if you can get to her and decide to stay... she will at best be about 10 to 12 years behind you in her mental age... you will always be her mom and never her wife... my own relationship with my wife is very much like two women living together... we are still very passionate in everything we do... except the sex... in that dept... it really is more the older lesbian approach... more love and companionship than torrid like when we were kids... but I have my memories of when she ravaged me back then so I love her more than ever...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Thank you Jeanine,

I was thinking about that this morning. I do want to have children and he is so terrified of having one that it seems to make him want to act out more and be panicked so that he distances himself / herself from me. I Definitely do not want to be childless my whole life, but I also do not want to have him donate, go through a lot of technology, only to be left alone to raise the child. It isn't fair to the child and wouldn't be fair to me. Because you are right. Due to his arrested mental age it is like asking a teenager to be excited about starting to raise a family- not a good idea. (sigh). The fun loving younger spirit in him was one of the things I was initially drawn to in him. It wasn't irresponsibility, as he has a job that he does well at, but a youthful innocence in a lot of ways. Little did I realize that that might have turned out to be a part of this. Before we got married he said that he wanted to have children. And of course didn't tell me anything about the cross dressing/ trans . He said that he really tried, but hiding it was making him miserable. I remember how about 6 months into the marriage he used to frantically pace around our place with his head in his hands and I'd ask him what was wrong. He wouldn't tell me until one day he did.

Thank you so much for your prayers and support. This is the first morning in over a week that I haven't waken up and started crying or feeling sick. Thank you so much.


jeanine 3 years ago

good for you, it's not the end of the world and if you want to stay friends, you should... unfortunately for you, you are the only adult in the relationship... and these are just my opinions so don't see them for anything other than they are... it is still your decision and I'm sure you will make the right one for you... I am so glad you are starting to get a handle on your outlook... in his defense... he is his sister in many ways and I can say that because I am also suffering from this mental dyslexia... he/she will always have that fun side and is the main reason she doesn't want to divorce..."Girls just wantta have fun un"...lol... keep you chin up during this holiday season and know that you are the luckiest girl in the world... you have an opportunity to live your life without having a grown up teen age daughter that your ex husband dumped on you from an earlier marriage... and yes that is what this trans thing is about... we do not have that confidence about our gender like each of you singletons have... nor are we the brave type that will strike out and try to change our lives... we are all imprisoned by our own selves... I tell you this not to discourage you but where you might have some real insight into how trans actually think... when you said it is a mental disorder... it really is... because we cannot go on and be either... we linger for years being both... stunting our mental process... so we really are behind in social behaviors... almost like living with a down syndrome child in some ways...ex. if you look at him in the baby situation you can see that he really is less... he is entertained by small things... anal retentive in some ways... like when a small girl plays with her dollies or paper dolls from my generation... he would be absolutely happy to have his/her mommy tell her everything to do... and you would be so surprised at how good a little girl she would be... unfortunately you don't need a grown baby girl... there is one other possibilitie that might work if you do want to keep him... there is a sight called "FLR" female led relationships and because he is a good earner that is a possible choice for the woman these days...because of his confusion he would be a good match for that type of life style... but again it's a lot of work but you wouldn't have to lose the work you have already put into the relationship... the most dangerous thing you must face at this time is... he is having unprotected sex more than likely... the bear that you saw... the wild look in his eye... is the fear he uses against his victims(your husband) to control him and force him to have unprotected sex... it is inherent in your husband psychic to submit as the girl he is... inside..


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Ann, some of this I've talked with Jeanine about long time ago. But I believe that as your husband is transitioning he is a new girl. Meaning he is new at it. Other than mental illness, this explains why he is not using common sense. He is literally age 13 about and wanting approval, being selfish, etc. It's like setting free a 13 yr old girl on her own out in the world.

My dad began acting reckless and not himself. My dad also has what I think is a morbid view of a mans role in society. He served in Vietnam but before that his dad was always trying, forcing,him to be a man and my dad was a very sensitive boy so I think his duty to serve in Vietnam also made his view of being a man worse.

If you stayed with your husband you would be his mommy. I saw this with my parents after them being married18 yrs. she took care of him. I took on a role to expect less care cause everything was centered around my dad and keeping him happy. My mom lived in fear and lies until he became an older teen girl and rebelled. That's what it seemed. My mom took me out one night after bed time and followed my dad where he met his girlfriend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. You will have a hard time like my mom finding a new normal after years of living this way. I hope you won't subject yourself to that.

As a teen i had nightmares about my dad. I saw a movie where the man dressed in women's clothing and was a serial killer. My dad is genius smart which is another characteristic of many serial killers...and he began having a locked closet door when I was in my teens. I don't think I slept when I had to stay weekends at his place. Can you imagine thinking that about your dad. It was of course a combo of the movie, my over active imagination, but mostly I didn't trust my dad. Sad but true. I finally found out the locked closet door was full of clothes wigs makeup women shoes and photo albums of pics of him dressed up. I was so sick to my stomach that I might as well have found dead bodies.

My point is your husbands behavior will escalate and when it does the trust in your relationship will be squashed. Don't live a lie.

I just realized only one of my mom's hubs is still published. Hubpages sometimes takes off or disapproves of this kind of content.


jeanine 3 years ago

I agree... it's the teen thing happening...the hormones are euphoric to begin with... you are examining your self to see what changes have actually happened... and just like a young girl, you expect those changes over night after they begin...and you so hope and wish everyone else sees those changes... the difference is... a 13 year old girl is still shy in many ways... here you have a 13 year old that can drive and has the tenacity and work ethic of a grown man... so he is going to do more and damage more people including himself without even realizing it... praise God you haven't had children with him and I know that sounds mean but it's not... you can stay friends but remember... He can never be happy... nd I know that from my own life... the nature of what this disorder is... never allows true contentment to rest upon our shoulders for very long... even after a successful transition, I know girls who can't seem to put it down and just be a woman. The fact that we are or were or can't seem to get rid of the male in us completely, seems to bother us for the rest of our lives...therefore we continue to have surgery after surgery... it's like we are all Michael Jackson...lol... sorry but it's true... unfortunately your hubby has already crossed over... he is into her more than he is into you... and that is reason enough to not stay...hey he has the stupids right now... and maybe he can't help it... but you must divorce yourself from your own guilt, in that you want to help him or you feel you could have done something else to ward this off maybe... let that go, it trips up many a woman and her on guilt holds her to this lie that Izettl is talking about... if you do divorce and she comes back as a woman and you still love her then give it a go maybe... but unless you are attracted to women it will never work... besides she wants a man just like you do... she just wants you to be her girlfriend and show her how to get one...sad but true... my situation is a great one, but even my own life would be totally different if I were not committed to my wife and children... I needed the structure that they provide for me especially years ago when I was this 13 year old ... now after years of hormones that girl seems so far away and it seems so long ago... I did some really stupid stuff at that time... but I finally grew up... and thanks to Izettl's writing and sharing the pain of what it does to the child, I always have something to hold on to when I get down and start to feel sorry for myself... the women in me is more practical now... would I rather be a woman or have my children... is the question... as a woman what do you think that answer will always be.... uhh let me see... behind door number one is Children... door number two being a woman.... door number three, a woman with a rich man that loves me... lol... I'll take door number one...ding ding ding... the extra prize comes with that door... a woman who is their mom... also loves and respect you, will come along with the children... face it and when you speak to your husband about real things... discuss if he thinks there is a woman on earth that would choose anything other than her children... if he says he thinks there is... then he is not a woman trapped in a mans' body... he is just a guy in a dress... I know that sounds harsh and Izettl and I get a lot of flack for taking the position that the family should be first in a man's and a woman life, but for us... the pain she has endured as a child and the love that has been given to me for choosing my family instead of myself is enough for me to say... "Family first" is what is needed whether one is a man or a woman... if I had no children but had a wife that was willing to stay with me and love me and hold me... I think I would still choose her as my family and stay... why... the commitment for me when she put that ring on my finger was forever... so find you a man that loves you completely... one can over come this disorder... I am living proof that love exist in the strangest places... and Izettl is living proof that we all can survive, even the most hurtful of all hurts... Merry Christmas Girls... and Merry Christmas to all..... Ann... make sure you have a support network during these holidays... if you are not spending time with family... go on holiday... get away baby girl... you need to live your life... you are wonderfully and perfectly made... will be praying for you dear...


jeanine 3 years ago

thinking about you Ann... know this is a heavy weekend... keep your chin... have faith like it is up to God... work like it is up to you...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Thank you so much Jeanine and Izettl.

I think your prayers are working because counting today, I haven't cried heavily in two days. I think I know what you mean Izettl when you say you had a fear of your dad. I know the movie helped with you wondering what could be in the closet, but I think I've been living with a similar fear. Not so much that he would physically harm me, but that with the hormones, and people that he surrounded himself with/ had in his life that I had uneasy feelings about, I felt tense and scared about the harm that his decisions were bringing into our lives. I felt like I was constantly looking out for danger and trying to protect myself and him, and that whenever I thought I had one somewhat under control, there were two or three more to take their place.

I wonder if that is how your mother felt. That she was just trying to keep things, as difficult as they were, under control. And then just when she was trying to stabilize what she had- the affair happened. And like a teenager, I started to feel like he was testing my boundaries to see how I would handle things. I came across a book called 'Yes, your teen is crazy'. It's a parenting book that described a lot of his behavior and gave great suggestions on how to counteract and deal with it, but it was never a consolation that it is a book for teenage behavior.

So yes, I know in a way about the fear you went through. It wasn't a closet with potential rifles inside, but it's a locked computer file, a cell phone message box with a password to read the messages. And when you do open them, there isn't anything inside to put your mind at ease. Just more things confirming that you're fighting a losing battle towards the type of "normalcy" that you'd like.

I started to feel like I was fighting the world. The people in his life that support this, known and online strangers. But I had to realize that he was the one that could turn off the faucet letting in the flood of people that were so in support of the upheaval in my life. That he was the one who could stop it, and that in reality, he was the one letting it in.

He was supposed to leave this weekend. He is still here. He said he will try to move out as slowly as possible. He moved some boxes over to the new place yesterday, but called me from there telling me how sick he was. He vomited again once he got there.

While out alone yesterday, I thought about what you both said about him being a teenager and figured that this anxiety he is having is probably the same as a teenager rebeling and moving out and having anxiety. He had called when I was out, and when he was telling me that he wax sick and lying on the floor after having thrown up, I felt like I was comforting my child. I thank you so much for your support. It's helped me more than I can express. I still have a long way to go, but I'm so grateful for your support and prayers. I'm glad to not be sobbing everyday anymore, grateful that I have a little bit of an appetite back.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Jeanine,

Izettl's perspective on children has also helped me a lot as well. A few weeks ago I was actually considering it, despite how hard I knew it would be. It might have been different had my husband been like you and wanted a family and wanted to put the family and children first. But his entire concern is of himself. There is no way, with his fascination/current mental state of youth and female-dom, that he wants to care for a real child. It's really complex. Maybe that also has to do with his abandonment by his father and neglect he experienced while living with his mother. He actually said many times that if I got pregnant that he would leave. And has said that part of the reason he is leaving now is that I want to have a child eventually, and he doesn't want that life. He says the reason he is taking his time to leave is because he loves me and likes being with me.

I am going away for 5 days to see my family for the holidays. Mentally, I've started to distance myself from the situation, thanks to your support, because you're right- I am lucky. This could be a lot worse, especially if I was trying to comfort a child through this in addition to trying to work through it myself. In addition to your support, I am grateful that I can get away to see my family in a week and that you've both given me an idea of what level ground looks like, as this experience has been like being on one of those roller coasters that throws off your sense of balance and knowing which way is up.

I would have loved, and still would love to grow old with my husband but I know I have to take care of myself first. One day at a time, step by step, just focus on taking care of myself and my life. I'll continue to be a friend and care for him but not at the expense of myself. He said that he would still be here when I got back from visiting my family, and that's ok. Pulling away emotionally right now and putting myself in my mind, in the place where I had placed him, is helping. I'm almost feeling sane again. Thank you thank you so much for your prayers, sharing your stories and support. It's a miracle how much better I feel. It's really horrible to sob everyday and feel weak for over a week straight. I've put my faith in God, and I thank Him so much for leading me here so I could find you both. Thank You! Merry Christmas to you too!


AnnStacy 3 years ago

I wanted to add that even though it would be nice to grow old with him- I can't continue live with the craziness I've gone through. I'm thinking like possibly a dream like later on in life or something, but I am not giving up the possibility of having children for him. In a strange way I almost think that he would like me to concede to being childless and having me take care of him while he runs around and continues to do whatever he's doing, while I stay in a constant state of stress while he's doing it. It always bothered me that when I'd tell him how something he was doing, or not being understanding about bothered me that he would yell at me and place the blame on me for being uncomfortable.

I hated that because if someone tells me that something I'm doing or not being understanding about bothers them, I try to listen and understand where they are coming from. I don't yell at them and make them feel like they are the problem. Just typing that starts to make me upset. Because that's a huge issue. Who can't have empathy for other people? It was probably the most maddening thing. Like when I found out about that crazy 'bear' person. Instead of caring about my feelings and my being upset, he took my phone and snapped it in half. It was one of those sliding phones. So I had to deal with the hurt as things happened, and then being normal and expressing that I was upset triggered him to heap more hurt on top of me. No expressions of guilt or remorse.

I know what you mean about nightmares though Izettl. Just remembering that incident with my phone reminded me of a nightmare I had around that time. It was something to do with a house, because ever since we were married it always bothered me that my husband would never say he wanted to get us a house. If he ever mentioned getting a house it was always in the context that it would be nice to have one in case one of his family members ever needed a place to stay then they could live there, but never to have a house for our future or our family.

So I had a nightmare that we finally found a house. I didn't like it, it was large and looked old, almost like a haunted house. I tried to tell my husband that I didn't like it but he did and the real estate lady was trying to sell it and wanted to show it. I stood in the back yard where she was letting my husband into the house where there was also an entrance. I guess inside that back door was a stairway to a basement where along the outside of back of the house there were windows where you could see into the basement from the height of it's ceiling.

I went over near one of the windows and watched the real estate lady walk with my husband down the stairs to the floor level of the basement. There was a semi circular fireplace down there and the fire was going heavily. The whole room was tinted red and there were people down there. All of the people that approved of my husband transitioning milling around and greeting him. It seemed like that fireplace was an opening to hell. I got scared and started to leave the property. I ran around to the front of the house and looked up at the front steps onto the porch. The windows up there were dark like someone had put black construction paper over them from the inside. There was an iron gate around the property and I found an opening to leave. But when I looked around to the front of the property it looked like the real people on the street were zombies. I didn't know what was going on but I looked up and there was a helicopter that had lowered a rope. I reached for it and stepped into a little stirrup thing and started to be lifted from the property. I must have made it about 20 feet in the air before I woke up.

That's funny I had forgotten about that dream. But that's how out of synch we are about the future. And I always thought that him saying that about the house meant that he wasn't looking out for our future. That he was thinking about himself and the people that have hurt me and my comfort, safety, and future weren't a consideration. His comfort, safety and future was a consideration for me but not the other way around.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

so, God Bless You Jeanine.

I am glad you put your family first. You are a good and caring person and have a beautiful family because you do that. I know that what is right and what God wants us to do.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

God Bless You too Izettl.

Thank you both so much again for everything. It is helping me so much.


Jeanine 3 years ago

Oh Ann, I am so glad you are getting a handle on where and how to right the ship you are own...tears are healing but also a calm mind and a plan of how to survive your teenager at this time is a blessing... I am so glad you are able to see what happens to him/her doesn't have to happen to you... and I feel your pain on saying... it is an uneasy feeling that the book you found is still about teen behavior... but at least there is some help in that you can see how to deal with certain things she will continue to do...

Again you are right in that the decisions being made and the people coming into your picture are controlled by hubby... she could turn those things off, but in her defense, I'm not sure she can... hormones are not evil, but they do change how we feel as trans... they are wonderful for us so as she stays longer at your house and she will stay longer than she has discussed with you, try and talk to her and tell her you do see the difference they are making in her and just as you would tell your teen sister, try and help her understand that those around her see the changes as well... this is a delicate time for the both of you, but I am so proud that you have chosen to protect yourself first... again it is a lot like the mother and child on the airplane and the oxygen mask drop from the ceiling... you must put yours own first, then help the child with hers... I am saddened by the her inability to share openly with you, the closed computer files, the phone and the rest of the hiding are typical behavior for all of us... and in her defense, she sees herself as the victim and not you... again the thoughts of a teenaged girl... are flooding the mind at this time... do you know how and where he got the hormones... and what dosage she is doing...does she have an endocrinologist and a therapist yet....find a therapist for you as well... the lying on the floor sick is again the mother and child situation for her... she is sick more than likely because she doesn't really want to move she wants you to change because she is going to change with or without your permission...again evidence male privilege, and that as much as he wants to be a girl, that is male behavior, expecting the wife to do what he wants... and as hard as it is to let him know that he doesn't have those privileges as a girl... you must be up front and tell him... if he wants to be a girl, here is the first reality.... no one gives a damn really and know one is going to feel sorry for you... it is a hard lesson to learn and there are many transsexual advocates that become advocates because of the male anger they still carry... now that being said... I am for full rights for every transsexual alive and for those who have passed... but I am also for the rights of the family and the wife especially because most did not sign on for living with a woman... you are doing great Ann... keep your chin up and know that this is just something that happened to you in your first marriage, it is not your life, but it is hers. He does not get to pass go and collect 200 dollars...lol...which he would have if he had chosen to share this feelings with you as a woman... definitely male behavior... thinks you should just go along with him because he is... was the husband... and the by the way, him acting up and yelling is unacceptable... that is the mood swing from the hormones partly but mostly it's him being the man... which as women when the guys act that way, we all make amends and try to understand that it's the pressure of being a man and all the responsibilities that men have... in this case can we all just call it like it is..." Bitch"... don't bring that pissy attitude in here... I'll slap you silly if you do that again...lol... don't take that crap anymore, you might think about taking it from your husband but not from a teen girl that knows nothing of being a woman nor the responsibilities that women have and must own each day of their lives... put her in time out... indefinitely...lol... sorry... but today, immediately inform her of her rights, and they don't include raise her voice ever again at you... "Here's a quarter, call someone who cares"...lol... I know that's harsh but she seem to be moving in and out of male privilege and that is not going to be available in the life she is about to embrace...

"He says the reason he is taking his time to leave is because he loves me and likes being with me." listen to that sentence as you read... this is so teen to me, because it's really the part that says... "likes being with you" that is very sad to me.... he is reaching out as the socially stunted little man there... he is so lost in himself right here that it saddens me... he is afraid and really does want to stay, it looks like... but he wants his cake and eat it to... and that can't happen if you want something other than a teenager or a girlfriend... you deserve a man simply because you are a woman... not someone who wants to be one, but a real live woman with all the greatness that women have and all the greatness he wants in his own life... in his defense it is waht was in that room... his esteem was probably so shattered as the child and the abandonment from both his parents that he just wants to be loved in anyway he can... again the best thing you can ever do for him as you leave is the get him some help... he is prime for prostitution and there are many of us that turn to that lifestyle... again let me visit the place of his anger and yelling... tell her/him that is no longer an option for you and if she /he expects any help from you, that behavior is to stop immediately, now, zip, nada, no longer, ever and right now... or she/he can leave right now... the "I'll move out slowly is not for you Ann, it's for him... he hasn't decided how it works without you in the pic... he is probably still hoping and believing that he wins in the end and you need him... again male behavior... remind him at every turn he is not male, by his own admission and lets face it, men have it easier in this world... I know, I chose to stay in my body because I am not offended by it so much... I do not hate it... I learned to use it to my advantage, and if you look at the new woman of today, they are aggressively moving toward being the new man... well a woman like myself, in a male body is not to far fetched from where women will be in another 50 years... look at yourself... you have the chose not to stay with him, where twenty years ago, Izetti mom may not have thought she had that choice...again, some of us as trans see that the age of woman is on the horizon, so like I said, those of us that are like that, are somehow driven to change into the woman we see coming... and that is a real drive in "two spirited" people... that part he cannot help... what he can do is become mature in his research... so many of us will not and do not want to look at what we really are... an ancient tribe of men who have a basic understanding of both male and female genders... we were born to help the two sexes understand one another... never meant to be women or just men... but both... somehow we lost our history and when that happened, the medical community took up the cross and said oh we can help... let us help you change your body...and believe me there is nothing more beautiful to us than that picture... but part of that pic comes from us no longer being focused on helping others or we are no longer held in high regard... so we got board and hey, with child like faith we would rather be one or the other... we are so tired of the confusion ourselves that we are willing to do anything for some peace... so as much as I want you to be looking after you... because you need that more than anything... you do and you have loved him... so pray for him... the confusion that you are so afraid of, has been his life since he was a small boy in that room next door... "The Room Next Door" is a good title for a book actually... again I am so sorry this has happened.... praying for you... and I'm so glad you are getting away for holiday... it will do both of you good, but especially you... keep your chin up... you are doing it


jeanine 3 years ago

Oh Ann, "you are such a girl...lol... and I say that for you to hear it... so again... you are such a girl" I'm sure you haven't heard that from hubby in a while or perhaps ever... I love that you said it errked you that he didn't consider that certain things bothered you and didn't concider changing one thing to accommodate how you felt... that is so typical and such a healthy outlook... you are such a girl...lol...lol... and as far as the the nightmare...woowee that was a nightmare, scared me... but I don't think your hubby is evil nor do I think trans people are those we hang with are evil... they are just different and different is not a bad thing if you are up for what we are are and how we will act for the rest of our lives... she must do what is best for her, just as you must do what is best for you... remember this is not your life, it's just the part that you are living right now... so go have the best Christmas you have ever had...knowing that you have a wonderful life ahead of you... know that you are "such a girl" and it's the most attractive thing in the world... and also remember your life is so attractive to your husband that he wants it to be his /her life... imitation is the greatest form of flattery... so live your life well... because she will never stop reflecting on what she can be and what she had in you... live your life... because it's yours... praying for the both of you... hoping he can mature sooner than later... hoping you can let go and live the life you dream... you can respect her for trying to do that.... she doesn't know how, but that doesn't mean she won't learn how... help her as a friend if you can... but she can never be the husband you are looking for... you deserve a good man... and if she really is a woman... she deserves one to... you are the luckiest woman on earth... you have the chance to start a new... be careful and be happy... Merry Christmas dear...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Hi Jeanine,

I know that dream was scary. I don't think my husband or trans or transitioning people are evil. I think it's just the hurt and hard time I was having dealing with the people in his life that seemed to be encouraging everything that he was doing that was causing me to have a hard time. These people, in my perception, acted like I was invisible or so unimportant that it was very hurtful. And I always try to consider everyone. If someone came to me and asked for advice, I don't think I would encourage them to do things that would hurt their spouse, even if I didn't personally know their spouse. Many of these people knew me and would continue to encourage him to do things that affected me, and when I would see them in person would avoid me, or I had the feeling like they acted smug like they had control over my husbands decisions and therefore what they said and decided gave them the power to indirectly cause me pain and stress. I think that is the true evil part. That I felt there were people who were close to my husband who ultimately wanted to cause me sadness and see me in pain.

Nome of these people ever talked to me. They treated me like , I may be his wife, but they would always be more important because they would always encourage anything he wanted to do and that together with him and sometimes others they had me out numbered. That is why I will avoid these people completely from now on, and the part that I felt really represented the evil in the dream. Because these friends and family members wanted to see strife and cause harm to our marriage. I could see it, but my husband would never acknowledge that I was hurt by this, because then that would be like admitting that what he was doing was wrong.

You're right. It is like the airplane. I have to take care of myself first and am starting to and I like it. I know that the taking his time is for him and not for me. I'm just glad that I realize that I'm going to be fine, even better than fine if he's not here. I love him, but unless he was like you in caring for me, protecting me and a family, it's already complicTed enough and I'm working on protecting and building myself and my happiness up. There is a lot in life that I would like to see and do and I am excited for it. Especially having a holiday coming up.

God Bless You and Merry Christmas too!


AnnStacy 3 years ago

He gets his hormones from a medical center that specializes in treating the LGBT community. They offer no counseling, if you want hormones or surgery they only make a person sign an informed consent form. So, anyone can come in and say they want hormones and they'll be given the prescription. I don't know what the dosage is that he is taking.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

I know I will be better off.


AnnStacy 3 years ago

I don't want to say this, but I'm ready for him to be gone. He actually said tonight that one of the reasons he's leaving is because he is not going to let me make him feel like the things he wants to do are wrong.

I've spent a lot of time doing things to cater to him and make his life easier, and while he's here my life is still kind of taking a back seat to his and I'm tired of it. Tired of walking on egg shells and still being humiliated because he turns to people to get support for behavior that affects me. Just tired of all of it. If he wants to be disrespectful to me, I want it to be in his own place far from me. Because I treat myself well. When hens around don't treat myself well because I'm too busy treating him well, and he doesn't treat me well in my place.


jeanine 3 years ago

Ann, I am so proud of you... you must stand up for yourself... my own wife did that early on when this was happening to us and I took a completely different road because she was so strong... stay in your own corner and continue to encourage yourself... most trans' wives get so bet up trying to heal their partners that they damage their own person...there's nothing wrong with helping ones self... first....the selfishness that we carry as trans is not on purpose... it's just after so many years the damn finally breaks and all the kings horses and all the kings men, can't put humpty back together again...lol... and it's really true... he couldn't put her back in the closet if his life depended on it...

I do know what you are talking about with the people in the dream... and that is why Izettl wrote this hub so long ago... we both agreed there was and is no place for the family of trans to go and express themselves...there is plenty of help for the trans but almost nothing for those who are affected by their behavior... I am so glad you found us... there will be a book soon that we will be working on to address a lot of the things we have discussed here with you... keep your chin up and remember... this is his life not yours... this is something that just happened to you, in your first marriage... remember to dream... of a good strong man, children, friends that care for you and your feelings... have a wonderful Christmas and see yourself winning in ever area of your life... don't spend all your love on him anymore.... love is so precious, share it with someone who holds it precious to them... praying for you... Merry Christmas... and happy Holidays... I will be here and so will Izettl.... don't be a stranger....lol...the things that he wants to do are wrong... not because he is trans, but because he is not considerate of you or your feelings... hey he is still just coming up on that teen girl that is inside of him... so sorry you have had to go through some of this... get away as soon as you can... life is worth living... without the strife and burden of someone who doesn't know who or what they are... try not to hurt her, but by all means do not let her hurt you anymore...live your life not hers...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Thank you . : )


Jeanine 3 years ago

Ann....the statement you make about treating him well and putting him first is what I have learned in my own lesson with being trans... although I am not a woman, I have found that the suffering each of you take on for your man or for your family is what I see as the grace of women and is what I have found most gratifying in my on life... not to suffer so much but to have something worth suffering for... my children and my wife are that for me... and I have found that I don't have to have the body of a woman or a man to feel the pride and joy of my family being close to me... I certainly have learned that they are the most important things in my own life... to know love is to know oneself... and to know oneself is to be able to love... I have found over these years that trans have a difficult time loving ourselves... yet the key for me and the door that I have been able to walk through, has nothing to do with me... it has to do with how much love I'm able to give instead of receive .... therefore bearing out what He said... "it is more blessed to give than receive"... I will be praying for both of you... do not feel bad that you are ready for him to be gone... he left a while back really... it's just the memories that you hole now, just a shadow of what once was... and if you can... look at it for what it really is... he is living so you can live your own life, so he does love you, in his/her own way... things work out so don't worry... you have all of your life ahead of you... try not to cry for him... he has to do it... and that is the saddest thing on earth... to no longer love the body you were given, is so upsetting, yet that is where is is... and she will find herself hopefully... remember love is the answer... Merry Christmas...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Jeanine,

I just tried to send you an email through your contact page at hub pages. Please let me know if you got it. If you did please email me at the email address in the message, and if you didn't please let me know by posting that you didn't, here. Thank you. Hope you're having a great day


AnnStacy 3 years ago

I'd like to send you a message without posting my email here in the comments section. If you didn't get it I think if you search AnnStacy in the search box, there might be a way to email me in a link under fan mail.


jeanine 3 years ago

Hi Ann, my email is not on hub pages... but you can contact izettl and she will give you my email... I'll contact her and let her know you are going to contact me... jeanine is a pen name of mine and I like it that way... I'll be more than happy to hear from you though... you can contact Izettl the same way you tried to contact me... I don't know who the other Jeanine is but it's not me... I am just a commenter but not a registered hubber... hubber hubber...lol... thanks so much for trying though...


jeanine 3 years ago

Ann, did you receive my email...


AnnStacy 3 years ago

Hi Jeanine-

I didn't get it. I signed in here and checked my email account and I didn't find it. I'm not sure if Izettl got my message either because I tried to send her an email through the hub and I didn't get yours so maybe she didn't get mine either. I have a temporary email address I can give you here. Please email me at ann@smartdroids.com thanks talk to you soon : )

I have a temporary kind of private email I can give out here,

so please email me at ann@smartdroids.com thanks!


Jeanine 3 years ago

Ok thx I will write when I get back to the house


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Anne~ kids with a typical tran around, will always come last. He/she has to come first. My dad did not transition until I was in my 20's but he was the "queen" of the house. It was unspoken gospel.

And then in Jeanine's situation, well she has put herself last for family's sake. Either way the trans situation has a bad deal. Someone loses a little and is sacrifcing too much.

As you saying above, my dad never got counseling. He went overseas to have it done so he could avoid the counseling and living as a woman prior to surgery.

Anne you remind me of my mom when i remember her crying all the time. Again, I was last. I was almost happy we didn't have to live with my dad anymore, but then it became all about my mom. I tried to cheer her up, listen to her, and not be any trouble. It's not fair to have kids in that situation. If you think about all the emotions you are dealing with, try being a child and dealing with some of that, but only a child so there is no point of reference or prior experience in how to deal with tough adult issues. I think that is why I took it so hard later in life cause I didn't know what to do with all that info as a child. At this point you may have some pride and dignity left to save yourself. My mom spent 18 yrs with my dad- she never recovered her self-esteem. She used his issues to avoid hers.

I talked with my aunt today. not about my dad but somehow it related to him in my mind. We were simply discussing the difference between boys and girls because I have a son and daughter. She was talking about how teen girls between 1 and 13 go through plenty of ups and downs, especially emotional, but it gives them a foundation to know what to do with and how to deal with those emotions in the future. A boy doesn't go through these stages so when he hits 15,16 or so, he starts to have emotions and feelings but doesn't know what to do with them or how to handle them. He continues this likely into adulthood. So a trans skips a very important milestone that girls go through to become women. Not having the emotional capacity to deal with these new feelings, they focus on the outside which is all they know how to so they appear (and are) selfish. They are not doing the inner work- they are doing most of their work on the outside with preoccupation with their appearances. This made sense to me after talking with my aunt so maybe it sheds some light for you too.


torrilynn profile image

torrilynn 3 years ago

Your hubs are simply amazing. I can't stop reading. I find it very interesting and brave of you to speak of something which is so personal to you and the hardship that you are going through with your dad. Voted up.


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Thanks torrilynn~ I had this attitude when first beginning on hubpages that if I wasn't going to be real and get to heart of matters then it would be a waste of my time...and I'm a busy girl. I'm sure you are too and I thank you for reading.


Kate 3 years ago

It must be strange to have a father that got a sex change. My dad has told me that he always wished that he could be a woman, but he is 7 feet tall so it isn't realistic for him. Luckily, I am my mother's height.

I actually transitioned in my teens, and I agree with your points. The clothes or makeup is not what makes you a woman. We could go out in men's clothes and obviously not be men.

I have found that people that transition later in life are stuck with a male mind frame. I am not sure if it is because of all of the years living as an adult male, or because they weren't that much female mentally and that was why they were able to wait so long. They seem to have an artificial and idealized sense of what a woman is like. Honestly we are just people, not sexualized objects or frilly clothing. Give me some concealer for my dark eye circles and and jeans and I'm good to go about my boring every day life as just another woman on this planet. It's not glamor and glitz lol.

I was able to go through puberty as a woman, so I did not need breast implants. They are just there and nothing special. The bottom surgery for me was a necessity so that I could actually be able to be intimate and not be a virgin for life among many other more practical reasons. I'm not sure of the point if you are a person capable of being a father...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Kate,

Your story makes more sense than late in life transitioners. It just doesn't seem possible to suddenly physically be a woman after 55 years of being a man no matter how female your mind frame is. You story makes perfect sense, there isn't a lot of emphasis on the stereotypical female clothes or mannerisms, etc. You're just a woman like the rest of us. I do believe a lot of older trans have an unrealistic notion of being a woman.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your story.


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Missy~ you speak a lot of people "born with" can I can understand that. 1-2% of births are intersex, possibly a little of both. I had a rabbit that was so this does happen probably more often than not.

This hub could also be titled, "Appearance does not make the person". This is the same thing I am referring to. My dad, a trans, is an insensitive prick (or I should say bitch because technically he's a woman) many times and shows no compassion yet I should have compassion for him based solely on the fact that he's a trans?

I'm not really concerned about a trans view of God- that's not what this hub is about. I know a trans minded individual who did not transition based on the mentality that a "real" woman would not leave their family behind simply to become who they thought they should be. Women, on the inside are much different than a man who got a sex change to be a woman. They "feel " like a woman on the inside, or so they claim, but many show no characteristics, other than appearance, that they are a woman.


amynluv profile image

amynluv 3 years ago from Missouri

She IS a woman, not a "woman." There is something between being cis (born in the right body) and trans, too. It's called gender queer. You are really, really transphobic, too.


amynluv profile image

amynluv 3 years ago from Missouri

Um...you need to educate yourself. Genderqueer is something different than gay, and I never said they were the same.

I didn't mention anything about the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, either. Why would I? I don't worship that god. So why you dedicated most of your post to that god, I'm not sure.

I said "She IS a woman, not a 'woman.," because the author put woman in quotes, as if a trans woman isn't a real women when they are. Maybe you should have read the article before spitting venom at me and recopying your same, poorly written, article a million times. Settle down and take a few deep breaths. Meditate. Something...just don't go around being so bitter and hateful towards others.


Jeanine 3 years ago

stop fighting and calling each other names if you both can help it... this is a peaceful site where we learn about each other not hurt each other... if you think one person is confused of uninformed help that person to become informed... you never get any where calling names and yelling or trying to make one another see your point...

I am gender variant and have been all of my life although I didn't know what it was called when I was younger. It is very challenging to live in your world... but I have done it and I am doing it... I realize just because I think I am a woman.. doesn't make me one any more than if I thought I was a dog, I would be a dog so lets get that straight... I do however identify with women almost exclusively... and all six of my therapist said the only way for me to find relief was and is to change my body.... I chose not to do that because I have a family and a wife .... I didn't know about my identity glitch until after I had married...and had children... here's the deal for me... if one if single and has not committed to a life with someone... I am fine with transition... by all means knock yourself out... if you are married with children... I find issue with the irresponsibility of transition... and here's why... to hurt my children and my best friend is not healthy for anyone involved... besides I know of no genetic females that choose to hurt the children on purpose... so after years of therapy and group... I stood and asked... " I do feel so similar to all the things we have shared together... I identify with only the female in me, but the woman in me would never hurt my children nor would I let any man hurt my children..in fact I would kill any man that tried to hurt my children.. even the one I live in".... true... in my quest to find an answer to my own gender world challenges... I discovered a little known history of our tribe... we were known in almost every tribe in the world as two spirited people... and if one really wants to know who we are... study there... we were and have been around a long time... and these last two hundred years is the only time in history we have been looked down upon... so after I had read extensively on our history.. I realized that we have been sold a bill of goods by the medical community...for how am I to be more, when you are trying to make me less.... I am two spirited... I understand certain things about both man and woman... strange but true... we were never meant to be one or the other but to be two living as one... I have lived in your world and I don't want to be one or the other... if you read our history, you will see were advisers to kings and queens throughout history... I hope one day we all do become more educated... but I'm sure because I live this life... it's different than any of you who have an opinion of how my life is lived... does that make sense... I certainly hope so... remember to love is divine and to seek to be divine is to be within the heart of love... argument is just that... it does nothing for the heart or the soul... nor does it convince me of your position... where the love lies is in getting to know how one another feel and how we see this life we are living... help one another, try and be in each others heart for a moment... communicate on another level and you will see, we are all created perfectly... it is the fear we should lose... it's what makes us want to control one another... fear is not of God.... and oh by the way... whether we believe in Him or not... he believes in us... lol... have a wonderful day... and be unafraid... for the one who sends the love is still sending...lol...lol...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Missy,

My mom is not more of a mommy than a daddy. I don't know if you read the part of my comment that stated my dad is an insensitive prick to me...my mom certainly is not. She catered to him...and sadly that's a woman. Many women cater to their men in relationships. However, I've seen the opposite in real life with trans who want to be women that are catered to. Other way around "sista". Women are the nurturers.

I believe trans have this false ideal in their heads about what a woman is. I also believe my dad associated womanhood with an easier life. He went to Vietnam and had to shoot people...point blank. Tell me no mental illness came from that. We all have ways of dealing with life and some of it can come across in a gender identity disorder in a time of psychosexual development.

It doesn't seem that "Jeanine" was attacking you. I get more female form "her" voice than yours Missy. All your logic and importance on education (there is a difference between life and books/facts) makes you seem very male. Sorry, but you're just proving my point on this hub. Nothing is coming from your heart and women live there. A woman's logic comes from her heart first. Yep this comment of yours Missy is very male "you're a freak in your sexual nature, O Kaay! And by the way, eunuchs were the ones who served kings as advisors, (while two spirited people advise their native Indian Captain Crunch and spanish lords) not that two spirited bullshit tribe of yours or things that humans invented not too long ago. Everything I write is based on facts, not what I think without being sure." No matter what you look like on the outside, it doesn't make your inside. Even you admitted that looks are a pleasure in life, making them ONLY an aspect, a small piece of the big picture. What happens when we get old? Is that displeasing and we should all be depressed? Or have a rough life because we're no longer attractive. Those older celebs who get plastic surgery are not attractive and yet they think they are so if dressing like a woman makes you feel like a woman then go ahead, but a woman it does NOT make. Appearance is only a "part" of life...as you put it Missy.


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

I want to correct the first sentence of my last comment- It should read...my "dad" (not "my mom") is not more of a mommy than a daddy. My dad doesn't have an ounce of nurturing in him/her. He wants my kids to call him grandpa...if that's not confusing. Most of the time he dresses gender neutral after his sex change. Not all trans are alike and that's why I want to emphasize that gender identity disorder is seeing the wrong image in the mirror, not necessarily feeling like a female on the inside wanting to come out. Most trans I've met put emphasis on appearance and like I said before appearance does not make the person.

Trans should flourish in this society because more women are becoming more like men than ever before. I also wrote a hub on "How women forgot to be women". Just like a "woman" spitting and foaming at the mouth with nasty comments can call herself a woman, but she is not a lady...that's for sure Missy.


Jeanine 3 years ago

Aww Missy, Izettl is right, you have to act like a woman to be one... and you don't me just as you said to the other writer... we are all educated her and can all read for more years than you may have been alive... I have lived all my life at home and made a living doing it... I have been with my children since the day that were born until the day they left on their own... I have wife who has loved me for almost a half a century and have stood in front of hundreds of thousands of people...I am Christian and if you care to read a little further... we were as a many different names in all 167 indigenous tribes from the beginning of history... have been in those tribes... and here's where you need to read... Mister (missy)... we were known as the keepers of the secrets of God... until your tribe the Christians came on the scene... pay attention sonny we have been here much longer than your savior... and we have been here proclaiming your God was sending Him... the name calling proofs you are a man trying to be and I appreciate you wanting to be ... but you will always be a man in a dress until your heart speaks for you... scroll back up and read izettl's other hub on this subject... "My Father the Transsexual"... women do have the right to say what is more womanly to them... and here's why... if you really are a transsexual woman... then they have all been a woman longer than you... and all have never been confused by it... I hope you understand and I hope you will temper your comments... because they make you look so obiviously male that it's hard to take you seriously... only a man would demand proof... a woman would already know what I am saying is true... understand dear... I will pray for you and I will pray to your God... because He is my God as well... but... and listen to me if you can... and I'm sure you can, because you told how inteeligent and how educated you are... so an educated man or woman has the power to listen... right... and a educated man or woman has the power to control their temper... right... and a educated woman never loses site that she really is a woman and needs know one... I mean no one to actually have to tell here or agree with her on what she is... so I will ask you again... can you be in this conversation with out bringing your male side to the party... we are hear in this hub for longer than you have been a woman more than likely...lol... sorry... Only a woman can make you that mad I know... all I'm saying is... you have every right in the world of men to believe like you want to.... but in the world of women... you have to earn that right sweet heart... just cause you say... I'm a woma I'm woman, doesn't really make it so over here...lol... sorry... when you speak... to your husband... does he take this BS from you... we don't have to take it and you can spit all day... it's just not very lady like... and hey ... I can say it and there are others that agree.. here so wake up and try to be a little more lady like, even if it's just the practice... God you are bitter... it hurts my heart... I know you hurt inside but none of us did it... hope you have a good day...


Jeanine 3 years ago

Sorry for all the typos, I did it so quickly and didn't proof it... how uneducated of me...lol... but hey you are so full of it... education I mean... I'm sure you can figure out every word I meant to say and every word that I am gonna say and probably every word... I've every thought... lol... you know what I mean dog... it is Dog isn't it....lol... hope you get a handle on your anger buddy or dear...lol... oh my.... did I say that out loud...woman up.... can we all say Bi otch...lol... take somp em this is America Jack... you can feel better immediately...


Jeanine 3 years ago

oh one more thing... please contact your endo and tell him or her, your meds aren't working... lol...lol... you are such a nasty girl... did you like hearing that from a man sweet heart... lol...lol...lol... oh and here's one more thing... I mean the thing that is after the other last thing, you know the first last thing I said... or meant to say... but I guess I really did have another things to say after that one thing I wanted to say... so here it is... you nor I have a right to tell one another how we feel because neither of us are living within our skin... so that's all I was saying... try and be civil... I lived a long time on this earth and I like it... it was very strange when I first realized I was a bit different... but however I found my way... you have no right nor voice really to tell me who I am or what I could and could not be... that attitude my be in your transsexual womans body... but it's stone cold male in it's origin and sounds pretty male in the delivery... still a lot of testosterone hangin in their buddy... I hear if you get a good endo... and take about 6mg of estradiol and about 300mg of a blocker... that will take care of it for you... of course I would know because I am all male and want to "side it in...out" what that the way you put it.... what a dumb ass some guys are... get a life if you can... you damn troll...


izettl profile image

izettl 3 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Good words Jeanine. I don't think my dad is on enough estrogen either. Missy, you need some hormones checked. I hope I put that nicely, not sure what won't offend you, but hormones are tricky things in the female world. Now that I've had the ups and downs of having my babies, I've got menopause to look forward to. How about you?


Jeanine 3 years ago

Hi Izettl... love your hub... and I hope Missyhalo gets some help... we all have been in the throws of testosterone over on my side and it's a very weird thing... Don't leave Missy, just talk to us like the girl you are or are trying to be... we understand that it's not easy... we really are your friends if you can stop the yelling and judging thing... you are a beautiful person inside I am sure,,, so please, let us see your girl side... that guy side you have been showing is just to much to take right off the bat... put on a little more make up and feel better... then truly find a good endo... they are a God sent ... at least for me... I love my endo and at first when I began to feel real I thought I was falling in love with him... when in actuality he just was helping me feel like myself... that was years ago and he still holds a very special place in my heart... now Missy... lets try one more time... Hi I'm jeanine... so glad to meet you...


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Missy, I won't judge you if you don't judge me. Honestly, when someone does judge me, I'd like them to get to know why, but it seems you want to defend and that's the worst possible reaction. If people like me can be helped by you in any way, it is to understand you, not defend ourselves here. let your guard down.


Jackyy 2 years ago

Hey, I just read this and I don't know if you're still responding to new comments since the last one was posted quite a while ago - But I just HAD to create an account to say something about this. So here goes.

I very much believe I'm a transgendered individual, and along my searches, this was relevant. Now I know I've had nowhere near the amount of life experience that you have had, especially not one whose Father had chosen to go through something so radical without consultation with the ones he supposedly loved - Like many people, I'm unable to empathize fully with this scenario, but you still have my sympathies, as little as it means coming from some stranger on the internet.

I'm going to try and stay as level-headed as I can with what I'm about to divulge into, but I can't guarantee you'll like what you read.

A couple of the comments I've read, I believe to be from transgendered people themselves, one even explained that they were alright with the body they were in while still experiencing the opposite gender - I'm still trying to get my head around this idea, but in the end, if the person feels comfortable, that's all very well and fine. I've even read something else from the internet from another post-op transsexual that has gone through surgery, that goes on to say they wish they hadn't had the surgery, except they still feel like a woman. I should probably mention that they had a very convincing feminine appearance in the first place too.

Now what my research tells me is that it's pretty much a gamble - the only thing that's certain after you're wheeled out of the operating theatre is that you'll never be the person you were before, and this could mean a lot of things. In the case of your Father, if I may, you described him as a "clown". To younger MtF transgendered people, this would be their horror story - at least to me, it certainly would be. A certain quote rings into my head here - "It's never too late to be what you might have been." Do you see where I'm getting at? I do think it was too late, at least in the case of your Father.

A Full Grown Man, a successful career, and most importantly, a family - the very image of what every man in the 21st century should strive to become (with the exception of the frilly outfits - heh.). What he did 10 years ago should've been done 30, maybe 40 years ago, before he had a career, a wife and mouths to feed. It's just unfathomable why you would abandon all that, and what have you got to show for it? I can't agree more on how selfish this is. As much as I feel for older transgendered people, I believe that there is a "too late".

For me, to become the other sex entirely would be to also become socially integrated as a functional female. This would mean nobody would suspect I was the other sex - If other people look at me and KNOW I'm a post-op transsexual, what's the point then? I wouldn't want to be seen as anything other than female. Seeing a lot of pictures of older trans-women myself, I begin questioning myself on whether these people think they actually look good or not. Some say they're happy to just be in their new body - well, okay, I guess, but referring back to your father, I wouldn't dare of thinking about doing something like that if I were in the same position.

Yes, some people do end up happier and with a much better quality of life, and some, not so lucky. Appearance indeed does not make the Woman - I don't know if I have it wrong here from your post, but you said something about how uncomfortable it was to be seen with him in public - I'm only going to assume he had the breasts and whatever else, but physically, he looked a mess. If he's not getting the right looks from the public, he'll never be fully accepted socially as a woman, and I think that's a very important part of actually becoming one mentally. At his age, I can't imagine he would make any friends like a female would, which could probably be a reason for his inability to portray himself as one properly, but he has also, well, missed the opportunity of living as a woman too; by a long shot.

You had the good fortune to being able to grow up as a little girl, make friends as a teenager, flirt, and become a mother. This is the experience that separates real women from transsexuals. It's also another reason why I believe that the sooner you decide to do something like this, the more you will learn and the better you will turn out as a woman. It's no guarantee that it will work for everyone, but it's just what I believe. You probably know more than me that there are probably very many women living today who were once men, that have then since become very socially adjusted and indistinguishable from actual women. These people were able to learn, and were the early adopters that have succeeded. There are probably also just as many, if not more not-so-successful people who haven't properly adapted to living as a female, because the just didn't have the knowledge.

Why would it be too late for some people? Because they had their chance before to decide. For you, your Father had a family. If that's not a cutoff point for something like this, I don't know what is. If I was raising a family, it's not me I should be worrying about, it's them, and because I've already made the decision to have a wife, and I've made the decision to have children, I should know that I've taken on that responsibility. Should I really want to change my mind, I would at least consult my family about it. I must admit, I can relate to your father when he picks on you about your feminine features, I get the same feeling sometimes when I see a nice looking girl, and sometimes, I'd begin to think things like "why couldn't I have been born a female? Out of the 2 outcomes possible, I had to be the one I didn't like".

For transgendered people, this is a common thought, and it's one that constantly hounds our minds at that. If your Father had wanted it so badly, why had he not made the decision earlier, before had imposed all these responsibilities on himself? The younger transgendered are, the more likely they are to thrive post-op. I don't know if you might disagree with this, but they made the decision before it affected anyone else in their lives, and when they're young adults without children to care for, they only have themselves to depend on, maybe some support from their parents in some cases. I guess that's all I have to say. Sorry for the long line of text, and my habit of disjointed writing practices, but if you put up with that to get this far, thank you.

As for the article, It was very insightful, and in the space of 2 pages, you were able to shine a light on such a large part of your life to the rest of us, without skirting the details especially on such a controversial theme. Like I said, I believe myself to be transgendered, I have been contemplating surgery for a while now, and reading this has only made me re-evaluate my options, so again, thank you.


Missyhalo 2 years ago

This article is for everyone wishing to understand the minds and hearts of real women who are transsexual-intersexual kids, ...teenagers, ...young adults, ...adults, and ...traditional old farts who always had that different side of them in them: http://wp.me/p3TYdy-i , and for transsexual women themselves. And for those real "vagina" women who boost about being a "real women" and separate themselves from "penis women," then if you want to be unfair, do realize that because you see and realize a man in a transsexual women, then you also need to realize that they have more authority, power, and are more superior than you are because, they have dick and balls, not you over them, as God intended it to be. Now keep quiet, and hush!:-) The last will be first, and the first will be last. The low will be raised high for everyone to see, and the high will be brought down low, where everyone will trample on them. Thanks to those who put a finger on the loads of transsexuals and are out to do the work of Satan its helpers in persecuting with inconsistent truths, yet low in spirit they and prostitutes will go into heaven ahead of haters who think they fight for the truth, but really are out to destroy the earth by purposely trying to fullfill the Book of Revelations, and that belongs only to God.


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Jackyy,

Thanks for your comment. You described a lot of feelings and thoughts very well. Certainly there is gender variance even among transgender. I also absolutely believe the earlier you do it, the more life experience you gain being that gender. Also the less people you hurt along the way...hopefully.

When I approach this topic on a few of my hubs, I've always been honest. Some don't like it, but there is nothing to be gained without honesty. That explained, I mentioned my dad as a clown because it was so late in life for him to transition- at 55. And it really seemed like an act. So to someone, myself back then, not knowing anything about trans, I thought why put on a fake act and go as far as getting surgery. Very confusing. So I think the earlier the better...and more natural...if that makes sense. I also know someone who wanted to transition for years but loved his wife and 3 kids and now at age 60 he has let go of that idea., but i'ts not easy at all and sometimes a daily struggle for him. He just reminds himself of his family. And again, the younger the better. It would be quite difficult to live one life for 50+ years then change. It may be inside that person for so long but after time what is an act (acting like a man) becomes the more natural gender even though that person may have always wanted to be feminine. And now transitioning to that appears to be more of an act.


savvydating profile image

savvydating 2 years ago

That's quite an interesting story about your dad. Though I like being a woman, I don't have any issues with someone wanting a sex change, provided they have had some counseling. That being said, my dad isn't transsexual, so what do I know about how this must feel. As always, we all appreciate your honesty.

It sounds to me like your dad actually needs to become a better person. Period. No matter what sex he is. He strikes me as immature, and that is sad when someone is 60 something.

I've had to deal with crap growing up as well. I've reached the point where, rather than thinking about how things should be, I just accept that things are as they are. Doesn't mean I have to like it, but I have learned to engage people as I find them, including my dad, who is not a nice person.

Sorry, I'm not trying to do the soapbox thing... just giving you an idea of how I've handled the abuse I have had to deal with without going nuts or wasting my energy feeling sad or angry anymore. That being said, when we are dealing with family, this letting go thing does not happen overnight. Negligence by a parent does hurt initially...


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

savvydating,

Thanks for stopping by. I think it's always different for those close to the situation. But you know more than you give yourself credit for because you hit the nail on the head: "It sounds to me like your dad actually needs to become a better person. Period. No matter what sex he is. He strikes me as immature, and that is sad when someone is 60 something." I wish I had written this. Truly, that's what it boils down to and thank you for sharing your insightfulness. Always a pleasure to hear from you.

I've learned to ignore as well but when some of that nastiness comes from your dad and onto your own children, that's where I draw the line. He may have done this to me, but when you want to play mental games with my kids...don't think so. I'm sure you can understand that. For me, I think I've become a pretty good person and I won't regret what got me there. Thanks so much for your comment.


Missy 2 years ago

People will always be stuck on stupid. God is beyond your imaginations. Seems like many will always be stuck in the imaginary dream world. Its funny how many work so hard to hate those they pretend to love.I bet if she won the lottery today, you would demand that she give you a piece of her pie, and only then would you be so money hungry you would call her "mommy!" -Or at least some would. Remember, many will never see God... so many who think they are doing the works of God, but God never asked you to do anything except mine your own business, butt out of peoples lives, stop putting other peoples business out there, and carry your own load. Just be happy that your new mom didn't kill herself, you, or the rest of your siblings. Be grateful that she was there for you as a lie- before she started living as a she. Be grateful because she could of walked out on you long ago and you would have never known where to. Stop being so selfish and nosey because, its her life, not yours. So what if you are her daughter, its not your life, it's her life and she can do whatever she wishes with it. She doesn't need to ask you for permission on how she needs to live her life. Just remember you're not a baby anymore, you need to take out the misconception that you still are her baby and start behaving like civilized people do and like a grown up should. You're still crying, stop crying. You're annoying little girl and all you do is noise and no one listens. She could of abandon you not, at a grown age. Remember, the world rejected her, but God loves her and tells her to come as she is and God accepts her. God is her mother, her brother, her sister, .....Me personally, I would never change for anyone nor live for anyone accept myself and there is nothing selfish in that. Welcome to reality.


jeanine 2 years ago

Missy, your comments ar BS to me... obviously you don't have children or if you do, you don't know how they feel or care how they feel or how you may affect them... those of us who do have children, realize how delicate they are from the time of birth till they grow old... so woman up and get a child and then make your statements known.... if you know anything at all about love... you will change and gladly change for that person... so welcome to the other reality...


Missy 2 years ago

Ok Ms Captain America! You're worse than a hardass donky, logically speaking. Grow up! You're not too smart. Not everyone that knows how to write and reason can understand the grown up life. And for your information Ms Thinkyouallthat, I'm not gonna keep wasting my time with your ass, cause obviously you like being complicated, so when you do, you only chase people away whose only wonna help and wish to expand you little close minded way of thinking. Obviously also, looks like you're one of those who always has to be right even when you are wrong, and one that always has to have the last word, WORD! So you know what, go-on, fight with the wind- you wont win. YOU WONT HEAR FROM ME AGAIN. I HAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD TO READ, SEE!


jeanine 2 years ago

I don't have to right... I have children... do you... and if you do, how's your relationship going with them... I think you are the one who is calling names not I... and I would love to hear your opinion... the one you expressed is actually the one you find in every article that is on the net... that's what I'm saying ... how bout a new song... you are singing the same song that has been sung since Christine Jorgensen... only quiter quit... so give an opinion and stop calling everyone a name... good grief... we are all adults here and you have too be mad because I don't agree with you... is that really how you live your life... truly if I am offending you tell me why... is it because I need to be right or is that your need... I have children so I have pretty much heard your opinion before... don't run... if you have the answer to my close mindedness ike you say... give it in love and teach me your ways... I have years into this so 6 therapist later... I would like to here a new idea... so please don't run... I can assure you the only opinion you will get out there is the one you have already expressed... I'm here because Izettl is not saying the same thing as everyone else... you even said that yourself...


Bobi 2 years ago

I don't understand why after 10, or more, years, you haven't forgiven you dad for not paying for all of your lifes expenses until after you got your degree. Have you ever thought about calling her '' her''? After all this time you still refer to her as him, or him/her.

I have not read all the comments or responses, but all that I have read say the same thing. You accept the fact that your father had SRS, and that isn't the issue. It was and still is the METHOD OR PROCESS, he took to do it. Personally, I believe he waited to have the surgeries until he thought you were mature/adult enough to handle it. He was wrong wasn't he. You are still, after all this time as bitter now as you were then.

Have you ever thought about accepting the fact she is a woman now.

Please try to forgive the past, it will be good for your family, your health and eventually, your peace of mind. Which may help, improve your, your children's, and the unwanted WOMANS, lives.


Joan 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing your story. I think a lot of the discussion of "two spirited" is true for some transgender people. It does seem like your still having anger toward your father after all these years is so unhealthy. She clearly wasn't a "transvestite" as you state. What you perceive as lying I read as trying to get by with being transsexual in a society that makes that very difficult especially during that time frame. This hub reminds me of the book a wife of a transsexual wrote shortly after divorce. Full of hate. The part where you say you are supportive to your father "but hide your true feelings" is very troubling. This certainly isn't supportive.


Joy 2 years ago

As a 21 year old mtf transsexual who started hormones at 18 (started male puberty at 15.. hehe lucky me)

I find it selfish when middle "trans" "women" transition. . . I'm sorry..

I needed to do this. So I did it damn fast.. before puberty mutilated my body! !

If you truly are trans.. then why didn't you transition as a teenager?

Too afraid?? Pathetic!

If you have married and had children than it is now your job to care for them and protect them from suffering. . . Even I feel pity and embarrassment for manish middle aged CD looking transsexuals..

Why?

Just why?

They are truly selfish. . I was always feminine. . I played with dolls and dressed up with my semi identical twin sister all the time.. I am still the same person I always was..

If you have to change. . Then you shouldn't really be transitioning.. isn't the whole point of transitioning to match your body with your spirit & brain?? So isn't changing ones personality, beliefs, values.. everything! Kinda tossing the concept into the fucking garbage?

#SELFISH


jeanine 2 years ago

Joy, you sound delightful like your name and I am in agreement... I do think we have to take responsibility for our actions... my children as well as my wife have always only loved me... so it would be the most selfish thing in the world to turn their lives upside down for my own desires... I look at it as a kin to a drug addict saying well... I'm an addict so fuck my family..I'm gonna do these drugs because I need then to feel whole... a little severe I admit but it does feel a bit like that to me.... I have to deal with this each day and most of it, is wonderful... I love that I have a different opinion than the guys and love that I can live and love in a deeper place in most all of my relationships, because of the gender gift... and although I would love to be myself and live a complete life as myself... I do have a complete life as a partner to a very loving woman who really does have a very heavy leaning toward lesbian out looks on the whole marriage thing, so there are some perks that I have been enjoying the entire marriage that I have only become a ware of in the last ten years... like many gender variants I was very shall we say in the dark about sex... so when I met my wife/husband, with whom I had my first sexual encounter... at 19 years old... can you believe I was that behind... emotionally... I was overwhelmed by sex, any kind of sex, every kind of sex that she was willing to teach me...lol...lol... so on my first night I ended up where I felt the most comfortable and that was with me going down on her... not because of some taboo or that I thought oh that's where we will start, but because I had not learned believe it or not what my boy parts were really for... duh... are my blonde roots showing, I hope this color looks good on me...lol... that was the beginning of my sexual education... and it was not until years later and that's right after my children were born that either of us realized that I never seemed to be satisfied sexually... the anger had built up over the years and I couldn't contain it any longer... I was fine with our sexual relationship as long as there was no intercourse... plus she had never given me a blow jog nor have I received one to this day... some will so say oh how sad, but I think it's one of the reasons I didn't transition completely.. almost like a saving grace so to speak... my of my friends who are gender variant hate their bodies... and that's so very sad to me... and although I wished my boobs were bigger, and the bits and pieces were not there between my thighs.. I don't hate this body... and I think it's because she never or we never paid much attention to mister winkie... if you know what I mean...by the time I found out what was driving my anger, it was to late for me to disavow my responsibilities to my children... plus I love them and I love my hubby wife... I never thought about not doing what she has always asked of me... it just seemed natural that she would be the head of the family... and I love being her man as well... I look really good in a man's suit and feel sexy wearing mens clothes... is that me in those clothes... why yes it is... do I see myself as a man... never.. but I can pretend pretty well in public and I love how I'm treated as a man... they have privilege that we can only dream about as women... plus I am a creative and I had the honor of being with my children everyday just as any other woman would have, so when those little babies latched on t my breast, I was so sorry I didn't have any milk for them... and oh my I did long for breast at that time and didn't understand my on feelings....however, it still didn't keep me from feeling the bond that most mommies get to experience... I've also realized that it's the suffering and pain that cis women go through for their families, that I seem to want to emulate in my own life. Call it a call to a lower station in life or whatever you'd like but the surrender I have found in putting others first, specially my family seems to have done it for me... and for those of us that know Izettl.. please make room in your heart of hearts for her... and her father... I know her and she gives him?her every possible chance to be the woman, yet I can understand why a child wouldn't want to give up their dad, especially if their dad showed no propensity to being or acting like a woman... I know she continues to try and give her another shot every time she can... Let me say this in closing... some years ago I was at my wits end and had decided to go ahead and transition... choosing to hurt all of those closet to me... I happened to read these hub pages and saw what transition could and can do to a father and his child... I decided against transition and it saved my family... for the rest of my life hopefully... does it hurt me inside, oh yes, do I have to fight the depression everyday, oh yes, do I suffer for my little ones... you damn right... and I would kill for them if you tried to hurt them in anyway... just like any other mommy on earth... so I guess I'm like you as well Joy... if you are young and know you are a woman then by all means transition and live your life, but if you are mid age and have a family, and realize this gift is yours... for God's sake... your families sake and most of all for your own sake... woman up and try on that dress over the chair called suffering and pain .... she gave it all, for her loved ones...


jeanine 2 years ago

I believe for a woman to pass as a gender variant or as a genetic woman is so important in every woman's life... late transition is such a debilitating thing for the family... I just couldn't do it to my children... or lets say I have been successful thus far in avoiding full transition... and I say this because it is a constant battle each day for me...my children know but they are also very thankful that I have considered them in my decision... and for every reason that matters in my life... that thankfulness in them and respect for what I am willing to to for and with them is very important and very much appreciated from me to them... I have taken the pain and suffering that has continued to follow me because I haven't transitioned fully... and tried to use it to my advantage... and now after years of suffering I am sure I am further along than I would have been because I have been able to associate my suffering to that of a real woman... I guess where there's a will there's always a way...for the one thing that I have noticed about genetic woman is... most will suffer even willingly for their children... and I haven't met one genetic female that have actually hurt their children on purpose... I'm not saying that every transsexual willingly hurts their children but what I am saying is... I'm not willing to hurt my own children after reading how wounded this child( Izettl) has expressed in her hubs... and as much as I want to be a woman fully in body as well as in my soul... I am not willing to hurt my children nor my wife for my own pleasure or my own person... Sara I think that you considered that you need to look the part before taking the final step is so important and very mature... in your out look at what it takes to live as a woman in this world... for me to be in help groups for years and ask the same question..."what will your family(wife and children) think about you changing.... and then here the same answer over and over..."well they'll have to get used to it or they'll have to accept it"... it just to much for me some times... the reason it is to much for me is... in all my life living here on earth... the only people I've ever heard say something like that and not really care how long it took for the persons they were discussing to accepted their opinion.... have only been men... so I am suspect of any woman who looks at their children and says... I will hurt them but then they will get over it... because they have no choice... I don't know any woman on earth that would do that to her children... and I think it's because children to genetic woman are human beings that are flesh of their flesh and bone of their bone, so they know if they hurt their children, they are hurting themselves... the only people on earth that don't know this to be a fact of life and of living... are men or males... and I think that is because they didn't carry the children nor have they sacrificed for that child to live... every genetic woman knows because she has given of her very life for these children to live... again I am not judging anyone else... I'm simply saying I can't do it... knowing that they are my children and I have taught them to have faith, have courage, have creative ways about them that will help them cope in life... my conscience mind or my un-conscience mind will not allow it... for a woman is a completed woman in my mind if she can have a child... and if you can't have a child... the next best thing is to be sure to whole a complete awareness than you would literally die for this child...


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Missy,

as usual there seems to be so much anger or hostility. You don't have to think like me or Jeanine or answer to us for anything. We've all said what we need to and I don't think we'll get any closer to agreeing with your point of view.

Joy,

wow well said and not because I agree with you, but because you're speaking from experience- you are going down this road and owned up to it as a teen. That's the trans I believe are well adjusted. My dad in particular transitioned age 55! Really? Just strange- it if was truly an urge or somebody you must be, wouldn't it be more urgent to get it done earlier? To live life mostly as a male leaves out a whole lot of experience as a female so can you truly be a female?

Jeanine,

I agree- if you can't have children physically (as a male-to-female) then do the next best thing and take care of the children you have in marriage and be the best parent and person. I love the last sentence on your comment!


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Bobi,

If it all was left in childhood I'd forgive because it would be in the past, but the mental games/abuse is always present every time I see my dad...and now does it with my daughter. I do not forgive nor do I have to sacrifice my daughter to make my dad feel OK.

My dad wants my children to call him grandpa so that's why I refer to her as him sometimes. Actually I don't really know because he/she never told me what he would like me to call him as far as pronouns- "he" still wants me to call him dad so I assumed "he" is OK.

"Life exepenses". My mom and I lived in a car for a couple of weeks and struggled through most of my childhood while I saw my dad spend lots of money on Gucci brand clothes and accessories, etc.

My answer to you...I'm not forgiving just because my dad is a trans- we are made to "feel sorry" for minority groups. I judge a person as a person. And boobs don't make a woman. Just because a woman can have a baby doesn't mean she should or would make a good mom- and that's the point of this hub.


izettl profile image

izettl 2 years ago from The Great Northwest Author

Joan,

You say, "Full of hate. The part where you say you are supportive to your father "but hide your true feelings" is very troubling. This certainly isn't supportive."

I am supportive by letting my dad be- I don't bring any ill feelings up. I let him/her be who he wants.

I hide my true feelings because I am afraid my dad will tear me down and not love me anymore if I talk about my feelings. Believe it or not people in these situations have feelings- it's not just the trans. As a child talking about feelings was discouraged. In fact my dad would laugh at me when I cried, even when he was around as some kids picked on me and I cried...he laughed.

I don't want your empathy- I wrote this for the truth to get out. That ex-wife who wrote the book out of anger- maybe that was her motive. I write this passionately out of education. Often the families of trans are forgotten about, nobody knows their feelings. As a society we have empathy for the minority group- I grew up living a lie and as a parent myself now, I no longer sit idly by and forgive. I used to make every excuse for my dad but now I'm a parent and I know there's no way in hell a real woman would treat their child like the way I was treated. Just because a woman can have children doesn't mean every woman is meant to be a mother- that's the point of this hub. Just because you have boobs it doesn't make you a woman.

recent studies show it IS HEALTHY to get it out. I believe educating, giving my story is a healthy outlet. Is there anger- sometimes but it only comes up during yearly visits with my dad. Otherwise I focus on my writing, my kids, my husband, my life. I have a healthy marriage and healthy kids...good enough for me. Do I think people are blinded by empathy for some trans? Yep!


SubRon7 profile image

SubRon7 16 months ago from eastern North Dakota

Outstanding hub, Laura, and I can really feel for you having to deal with your dad in that way, especially when you were young. But look at the woman you have grown into.

My best wishes to you, and honored to know you!

James W. Nelson


izettl profile image

izettl 16 months ago from The Great Northwest Author

THanks James- I didn't see this comment until now! Thanks for stopping by!

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