Two Faces of Feminism

Feminism and female sexuality

Recent decisions by female politicians in Iceland and the Czech Republic highlight two very different ways of understanding women's empowerment.

In early 2010, Iceland banned strip clubs in the name of enhancing women's rights and quashing the objectification and commodification of women. Then, later in the year, several female Czech MPs posed provocatively for a calendar with the purpose of highlighting the growing presence of women in Czech politics.

Kristyna Koci, chief negotiator of the Public Affairs party
Kristyna Koci, chief negotiator of the Public Affairs party

Feminism: The Icelandic way vs. the Czech way

The lower house of the Czech parliament has about 22% female members, while Iceland has 43%. Iceland is also home to the world's first openly gay Prime Minister, the current Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir, who is also the country's first female Prime Minister. Iceland also claims the world's first democratically elected female head of state, Vigdís Finnbogadóttir, who served as President from 1980 to 1996.

The recent elections in the Czech Republic which prompted the provocative calendar saw the highest-ever number of women elected to the country's parliament. The Czech tradition of feminism and women's rights has been characterized as less confrontational and less bold than western versions, but nevertheless delivering significant positive results for Czech women over many decades.

It is worth noting that for all the wonderful boldness and passion of American feminists, the percentage of women in the American House of Representatives today (17%) is less than that in the Czech lower house (22%). There is a similar gap between the two upper houses.

Jana Parizkova, a Czech politician
Jana Parizkova, a Czech politician

Sexy women: powerful or powerless?

Compare the sentiments of a Czech politician...

"Women's political influence is growing. Why not show we are women who aren't afraid of being sexy?" said Marketa Reedova, Public Affair's 42-year-old candidate for the Prague mayor's office.

... and an Icelandic one:

Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban [on strip clubs], firmly told the national press on Wednesday: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."

The Economist notes a "clash of sexual civilizations" involving the differing approaches to sex between Slavic countries and Anglophone ones. The Nordic countries generally have taken a tougher stance on prostitution and the buying and selling of sexual services than other European countries.

Strip clubs: no longer welcome in Iceland
Strip clubs: no longer welcome in Iceland

Feminism and sex

Feminism in the broadest sense is the project of increasing women's rights to the point of equality with men. Since much of sexism revolves around sex, the role of sex and sexuality has always been a feminist concern.

Does the commodification of sex and even of female sexuality help or hurt women's advancements in politics, business and society? Do displays, exhibitions or exploitations of the female body basically enhance or undermine women's power? Do they have any effect at all?

The answer is that any negative effect on female empowerment is minimal, if not absent altogether. The history of wealthy societies over the last 50 years demonstrates two relevant developments occurring in tandem.

First, there has been an increasing sexualization of culture, or a removal of restrictions to sexual expression (depending on one's point of view). Second, there has been an inexorable increase in women's empowerment and their role in society. To take the US as an example, surely if more sexualized images of women retarded women's overall progress in society, then we would not see an increasing number of women in universities, businesses and politics. We would see a decrease.

This topic will be explored further in another hub. For now, enjoy your local strip club while you still can.

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Comments 43 comments

Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Men are far too preoccupied with sex if you ask me. Especially since if it is done right, it takes so little time.

I'm fine with men being visual creatures and I say, if women want to pose and they have the bodies to do so, go for it. Sometimes, their bodies are all they have as their heads are pretty empty. (Not always the case!)

Strip clubs are fine with me and I've been a feminist for ages and ages!


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

If it's done right, it takes *little* time? Not sure about that one.

I agree it's really not that big of a deal. Plus it generates tons of economic activity in places like Nevada or Amsterdam.

Better not travel to Iceland any time soon--they might run you out into the sea for fraternizing with the enemy!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

hehehe, by "so little time" I meant in comparison to 8 hours of work and the dreaded hour of exercise one needs every day. Heck, if you can actually make it last longer than 30 minutes, you should be getting paid for it cause you would be a professional or something. But maybe you are!

I've never had a problem with sex as a business. Obstetricians do it all day long!


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Well, given my meagre Hub Pages earnings, maybe I should think about some "supplemental" income if ya know what I mean! So much for stress in the workplace.

I am in favor of legalized prostitution, although there are some intriguing implications of that for society and culture, in my estimation. I will be writing about that in the future.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

In this day of political correctness, I still don't understand why sex is even a focus. The powers that be want us to live in some kind of Nerf society which is stupid to say the least.

Did you hear about Honors (captain of the USS Enterprise) just got relieved of command for doing a little gay bashing 10 years ago! WTF? Scares me that the US Navy is full of pussies that can't take a little ribbing. Women have been taking it all their lives. The man shouldn't have lost his command and job over something that happened 10 years ago! I'm still shaking my head. Husband Bob is livid! He is ex-navy and says that what Honors did was really mild compared to what went on with Don's ask, don't tell policies.

If people would just do their jobs and develop some tolerance to annoying stuff, the world might get a little better.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

"If people would just do their jobs and develop some tolerance to annoying stuff, the world might get a little better."

Right. Or we could just legislate it all away and pretend it never happened :) Hence Iceland.


Diana King profile image

Diana King 5 years ago

The Czech Republic is a transit point for women and children sold into the sex slave trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_C...

Their female politicians are politicians first, emphasizing the what boosts the local economy over human rights.

Also, you'll never get two groups of women to agree on anything of a sexual nature. The way that we are raised, what we are taught is moral, what is expedient at the time and life experiences guarantee this.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Thanks for visiting, Diana.

"Their female politicians are politicians first, emphasizing the what boosts the local economy over human rights."

Hmmm... interesting theory, but it requires us to assume that sex appeal is intertwined with the sex slave trade, such that you can't have one without the other. The nation of Saudi Arabia notwithstanding, I don't think this is a very tenable idea.

You are also assuming the absolute worst about the Czech female politicians, that they are not just beyond cynical, but downright evil and supportive of systematic human rights violations on a large scale.

Clearly these women are celebrating (albeit in a controversial fashion) the progress their country has made in human rights, specifically women's empowerment, so how can you say that they are willing to throw said human rights under the bus for some cockeyed "boost to the local economy"? They don't even all come from the same locality, so this especially doesn't make sense.

Actually I don't completely agree with your comment about women and sexual preferences. There is certainly more diversity among women than among men in sexual preferences, but there are some significant commonalities as well.


QudsiaP1 profile image

QudsiaP1 5 years ago

From where I stand, the struggle is different altogether.

Just hear me out for a moment.

Women are generally more clear headed and not distracted easily. There are swift in their decisions and firm in their choices simply because being a woman, that is what you have to do all your life... Juggle juggle juggle. If women are trying to come in to politics is because perhaps being clear headed allows them to focus better.

Men by basic instinct like to dominate over women and basically its a viscious cycle where women feel that they can gain attention only by objectifying themselves.

Men could not objectify women if women did not choose to do it themselves. Of course I am not talking about the enforcers and the criminal elements, I am making a general statement.

See, I come from a country where a man could go on and on and on about the pride, virginity and honour that comes along with being a woman. This man will look down up on any woman or man with a diverse character.

However, once this supposedly honourable man is kept in the same situation, he too will act similarly.

So many men supposedly support strip clubs and brothels, yet I have one question for you.

"Would you be okay, if your mother, wife, sister or daughter, decides to join it?"

Think about it.

Oh and please do not get me wrong, this is not a direct attack on your beliefs or anything. I just am talking about my perspective on the topic.


Diana King profile image

Diana King 5 years ago

Hey secularist10 -

Nice to meet you. I have a tendency to be abrupt in the way I write, and perhaps you were forced to read too much into my comments.

"...but it requires us to assume that sex appeal is intertwined with the sex slave trade..."

No assumption about sex appeal made - I never mentioned it. This about using sex as a commodity, whether it's to boost one's own popularity or to sell a calendar or a 15 year old prostitute. Sex as a commodity can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances.

"You are also assuming the absolute worst about the Czech female politicians, that they are not just beyond cynical, but downright evil and supportive of systematic human rights violations on a large scale."

They'd be evil if they owned or had a stake in the slave trade. I don't believe they do. Silence on an issue doesn't always equal complicity.

(My comment should have read: These female politicians are politicians first, emphasizing that which boosts the local economy over human rights.)-Sorry about the lack of proof reading.

I always assume the worst about politicians. It saves my ideals from being crushed by reality. Kristyna Koci is the only one in the bunch called a reformer. (Great shot of her by the way.) Which in the Czech Republic means she wants the Communists/Russians out and the streets cleaned more often. I'd like to see them take a stance against organized crime and the slave trade in Eastern Europe, and I haven't seen a single statement on this issue from them, then again, I don't read the language and could have missed it in the local reporting.

Whether they'd like to take a stance and are not doing so because they are waiting for a more opportune moment or greater support from their fellow politicos, or the issue isn't on their radar, who knows. Czech politics is not my forte.

"...so how can you say that they are willing to throw said human rights under the bus for some cockeyed "boost to the local economy"?"

"Under the bus" is your term. Haven't addressed the issue yet, might be more accurate. Unless getting rid of the Communists/Russians out is double-speak for getting rid of organized crime and the slave trade that goes with it.

The proceeds for the pin-up calendar go to a children's hospital. Commercialization of sex? You betcha. The proceeds for the slave trade go into organized crime and politician's pockets. Commercialization of sex? Again, yes it is. The dichotomy of sex as a commodity rearing it's head - for a good cause, and an ugly one.

However, this was only 3 women out of the I believe it was 44 (need to double check this number) elected. Some of the other elected women had issues with the calendar, it didn't enjoy universal support.

Since they are new to their posts, let's assume they haven't been corrupted by political "donations" and the organizations that make them. After all, these ladies are supposed to be the new wave of politicos, ushering out the old boys system. I'll retract the boost to the local economy (and by local, I mean their country,) pending one of them making a statement against forced prostitution, forced labor on farms and the general slave trade centered in Prague. Oh, yes and let's not forget the illegal brothels that exist nationwide. Koci says she wants to clean up the corruption that is in her country and side steps these issues completely. Issues that dump a lot of money into the Czech economy.

"Actually I don't completely agree with your comment about women and sexual preferences..."

Not sexual preferences, things of a sexual nature. And not individual women, groups of women. If the question is whether or not stripping is empowering to strippers, different groups of women will respond in different ways. Not because they got up on a stage and tried it, or because that's how they made a living, but because of ideology. If your ideology says - women as sexual objects is a bad thing, it doesn't matter if the stripper felt empowered and was well paid. If your ideology says - feminine sexual power is to be celebrated, then it doesn't matter if the stripper was forced to perform.

It will matter to individuals in the group, but not to the group. Sort of like what's happened with the Democrats and Republicans here. As groups, they're out of their collective minds. As individuals - only a few of them are less than rational.

"...but there are some significant commonalities as well."

I do wind up talking to individual women in group settings about sexual preferences all the time. The only significant thing we can agree on is that we have vaginas. And just when you think we can all agree on this, someone stands up to represent the transgendered.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Qudsia, thank you for coming and commenting. I'm not sure I agree that women are more clear-headed. Perhaps as they get older, but older men and women tend to be more focused and clear-headed than younger men and women anyway. I think it has a lot to do with your definition of "focus," but it seems that men and women are both focused enough, just in different ways. A lot of is culture, too.

Male domination over women is not a universal phenomenon; the men of Iceland, for example, relate to women very differently than the men of Iran. This says nothing about sexual dominance, of course.

On objectification of women, I'm not sure I agree, but again it depends on your definition of "objectify." All men objectify women on some level, but at the same time all people objectify other people on some level too. So it depends exactly what you are referring to.

The association of female virginity with "pride" or "honor" is simply the remnant of ancient, backward attitudes about the female gender in which a women had value as a human being only insofar as she was a virgin or a mother. Many people (men and women) still place a high value on female virginity, but it is totally unwarranted and illogical.

"Would you be okay, if your mother, wife, sister or daughter, decides to join it?"

This is a great question, and you are right, many men would be hypocritical here. But I am one of those rare men who actually believes what he says (go figure). I don't have a wife, daughter or sister, so the closest woman in my life is my mother.

Now, my mother's character and personality is completely out of synch with prostitution or stripping. So there is no chance she would ever be interested in that. However, in the parallel universe where she would want to do that, yes, I would be perfectly ok with it.

Why? Because it's her body, her life and her decision for her happiness. Who am I to try to control another person's life? If that was what truly gave her happiness and freedom (and it wasn't just a cry for help or a symptom of psychological distress), then I would support that, because I support her in anything she wishes to do.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Diana:

Well, using sex as a commodity relies on sex appeal, but I don't want to get bogged down in semantics.

You seem to be primarily concerned that they do not speak out enough against sex trafficking/ slave trade. Ok, probably they don't. They should. Governments all over the region should work together to stamp it out. No debate there.

But does that mean they don't care at all? Does that mean they are happy to have it continue because it "boosts the local economy"? Or is it more likely that they, like many Mexican officials, are simply overwhelmed by the organized criminals and wouldn't know where to start? Being critical of politicians is one thing, and certainly warranted in this case. But saying that they knowingly look the other way because they know it boosts the economy is a bit much. There are a lot of reasonable explanations before we have to get to that conclusion.

And anyway I really don't see what this has to do with a sexy calendar.

"The proceeds for the pin-up calendar go to a children's hospital. Commercialization of sex? You betcha. The proceeds for the slave trade go into organized crime and politician's pockets. Commercialization of sex? Again, yes it is. The dichotomy of sex as a commodity rearing it's head - for a good cause, and an ugly one."

Ok, so what? Do you think the commercialization of sex is a bad thing? It is not, anymore than the commercialization of any other product or service is a bad thing.

And no, sex trafficking is not relevant here, because I am talking about consensual sexual activity. Obviously forcing a child to have sex is wrong. Forcing a child to work in a mine is wrong. But that doesn't mean mining, as a commercial venture, is a bad thing.

"If the question is whether or not stripping is empowering to strippers, different groups of women will respond in different ways."

Of course. That's what the hub is all about.

"The only significant thing we can agree on is that we have vaginas. And just when you think we can all agree on this, someone stands up to represent the transgendered."

Haha! Good line. You have to write me some material.

But when women talk amongst each other about sex, they will notice a lot of differences. This is like when a group of Europeans get together, they will notice a lot of differences in each other--in language, culture, dress, etc. But compare a European to a Japanese or an Indian, and suddenly those differences don't seem very significant.

So when you compare women overall to men, suddenly the differences among individual women are not very noticeable, even with the occasional outlier. There are some broad underlying themes that seem to be more or less universal.


esllr profile image

esllr 5 years ago

All men objectify women on some level, but at the same time all people objectify other people on some level too.secularist10 this is priceless and true.

As long as we all look,live and think differently we could not possible have the same values about self worth. Women are so intriquing if not on the outside on the inside.

But what is sooo sexy and intriquing is the mind. Why can't we fully appreciate a beautiful mind? Being eye candy is underrated but image that pared with a beautiful mind. Priceless!

I don't care what you look like, if you don't enhance your mind you will miss out on life. Don't get caught up with outer beauty.

Empower yourself and others with your confidence of knowing who you are. Trust me you will attract a better class and quality of people. Being superfiscial happens to the best of us. I prefer to use my superfiscial powers to look on the inside.

No matter what I see beautiful (inside and out) I always wonder if they are blessed with a beautiful mind or wonder when they will decide to use their mind to change their circumstances. I'm just saying....Don't be afraid to be sexy, but you own your own sex appeal!


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Esllr, thanks for coming. The mind and personality of a person is indeed powerful. Many women don't realize that while men are attracted to the physical, intangible qualities like confidence, attitude or style can be very attractive to men too.

A physically beautiful woman who has a flat or boring personality will often lose out to an average-looking woman with a compelling personality and fun-loving attitude. Despite the basic superficiality of the media, we can see this pattern all over the media and culture.


W. K. Hayes profile image

W. K. Hayes 5 years ago from Bryson City, North Carolina

Two words: Sex Sales...over the short period of time, I have noticed that some women...and a few men, will show a picture of an attractive woman to attract more readers to their hubs. By the same token, more women prefer reading romantic articles than men by a wide margin. Even then, each individual is different and what works for them is unique, in its own right ans defined by eprsonal preference. Oh, and for the record, a woman will look at an attractvie woman just as quickly as any man. That might not be thinking the same thing but the ultimate goal of anyone that uses their looks is sending the same message, "Look at me," or "Pay me attention," and who does not love attention?


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

WK Hayes, thanks for coming.

You are right; physical beauty/ attractiveness is simply a part of the human experience, as much as some would like to believe otherwise (from radical religionists to radical feminists). Better to accept it as part of humanity and human nature, and appreciate it, instead of trying to deny its power... which only winds up giving it more power anyway (especially over men).

Physical beauty has its roots in the evolutionary advantage of demonstrating genetic and physical health, and a greater ability to procreate. Thus it plays an important role for both men and women in human relationships, on a number of levels, and often has a significant effect on the human mind.


amymarie_5 profile image

amymarie_5 5 years ago from Chicago IL

Great article and interesting points. I don't have a problem with sexuality but being an American I notice that the objectification of women in the country is going too far. I never approved of it. I can't even imagine the US banning strip clubs. My friends will go to Hooters with their families and children. I simply don't understand it. If there were a restaurant that were displaying men in hot pants, would men really put up with it? Why should we? Anyway I think that when women continue to objectify themselves it makes us all look bad. I get teased a lot for my beliefs but I don't care. The fact is that crime against women in the US is higher than it ever has been and crimes against women (and children for that matter) are not taken very seriously.

Anyway sexist attitudes will continue to exist until we as women change first. We as women need to start respecting ourselves and stop objectifying ourselves and allowing it to happen to other women.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Amy, welcome and thank you for visiting.

I agree, Americans tend to have a very odd and uncomfortable relationship with sex. The same family that goes to church on Sunday and nod their head in agreement about too much sex in the culture will go to Hooters the next day, and then attend a college football game that includes scantily-clad cheerleaders the next day. The US is a society that celebrates "Christian" values, while supporting a culture saturated with sex appeal and titillating imagery.

However, I don't believe that women engaging in sex or sexualizing themselves in an appropriate way somehow harms the female gender in general, any more than a male strip club harms the male gender. We need to stop thinking about "men" and "women," and stop looking at each person as some ambassador for their gender, and start looking at individuals. If some guy wants to dance and take his clothes off for women, then go right ahead. How does that demean me or affect my power as a man?

Despite the increasing sexualization of the culture, women are doing better in America--in business, politics, college, public life generally--than ever before. They outperform their male peers in a number of areas. So, ironically, one could argue that women's empowerment is actually helped by sexualized images of women in the culture and media!


amymarie_5 profile image

amymarie_5 5 years ago from Chicago IL

That's true what you say about Americans. It's exactly how our society is. You make interesting points but American males are very homophobic. We don't have male strip clubs, if we do I have yet to see one. A few yrs ago a male brothel was going to open in Vegas and the outrage was ridiculous. One male brothel compared to countless female ones. It's more the hypocrisy of it all that really gets me. Then on the flip side we have these fundamental Christian ideas that the government feels should be put into law. I just don't get it.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

There's definitely a lot of hypocrisy in the US. I think it stems from the many contradictory forces in the society, from religious puritanism to capitalist decadence and everything that comes with a commitment to personal freedom. Lots of contradictions.

Oh, and there are tons of male strippers and strip clubs! Here are a few I got from a Google search (Warning--some may contain adult content):

Manhattan Men, serving New York and Atlantic City

http://www.manhattanmen.com/

Hollywood Men, in (of course) LA, where you can, ahem, "Step into the bad side... and meet the men your mother warned you about!"

LOL!

http://www.hwmen.com/main.html

And "LaBare" which seems to be in Vegas, LA and some other cities.

http://www.labarehollywood.com/

A lot of women attend or get visits from strippers for bachelorette parties and birthday parties. Personally I find all this stuff hilarious, and the women who attend them are just adorable. But, of course, I am very secure and not threatened by women having fun with hunky guys. I suppose most men aren't so secure, as you said.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore

Hi secularist,

Thought I'd come over and see what's new at your cave. I don't mind a little sexual objectification but I object when it goes too far...like bras for 7 year olds.The sexualization of females starts early and as usual I blame capitalism. It's an industry.

You're right about the 'two faces'. ..some feminists perceive girly sexualisation as a kind of 'freedom to be a woman' and others see it as a tool of oppression.

Last year in Russia a group of female journalist students from Moscow university brought out a highly sexualised calender of themselves, in praise of Vladimir Putin. It was, apparently a kind of gift. How strange. Eastern European gals seem big on female sexualisation.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Jane, welcome, good to see you. Not much "new" actually. I've been pretty lax vis-a-vis Hub Pages the last few months!

I certainly agree that children should be off-limits. I really don't understand why all that sexualization of young girls is necessary or what motivates the parents and guardians of these girls. Sure capitalism is the medium, but capitalism has been around for a while, this kind of stuff has only been happening for a short time in the culture. The products wouldn't be sold without at least some demand.

The ultimate source must be elsewhere--clueless parents with no strong sense of boundaries in the absence of hard religiosity? mothers trying to live their dead sex lives vicariously through their children, whilst they are still young enough to be manipulated and directed?

Adult sexualization, in my view, has little to do with empowerment or oppression. It just is. It's just part of the human experience. It's like career: it's one aspect of life, and should be accepted and embraced for what it is, but if a person becomes a slave to their career, that certainly diminishes their life.

So a woman who poses nude in some magazine is embracing her sexuality, just as she should embrace all aspects of her life. But if she allows herself to become a slave to it, well, that's lost potential. The great thing is that unlike in times past, women have a choice in how they express themselves and present themselves in most modern societies, significantly hindering the oppression argument.

"Eastern European gals seem big on female sexualisation."

And that's why I'm studying Russian! Haha, just kidding. I do, however, admire the much easier and freer attitude toward sex in Eastern Europe, even if it does go too far occasionally. It's largely a function of decades of cultural secularism under Soviet rule, methinks.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore

Don't let capitalism off the hook! It started with teenagers then they've just moved the bar lower and lower. What next...babies in g-strings?

Perhaps it has something to do with celebrity culture as well..children(and/or their parents) wanting to emulate the latest sexy phenomena on the tabloids.

It's very odd when you think about it, because on the one hand we have this almost hysterical moral panic over pedophilia and then on the other the seemingly acceptable commercial sexualisation of children? Weird dualism.

I do agree with you that sexualisation is just part of the human experience.'Course it is.

Dasvidaniya..


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

The pedophilia/ commercialization thing is a great point. I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

It depends on how you're defining capitalism, but capitalism as far as I am concerned is simply a wild animal. If a tiger breaks out of the zoo and kills someone, do we blame the tiger? No, we blame the managers, supervisors, maybe the cage manufacturer, whoever was responsible for controlling it. The tiger is just doing what is natural for it.

It makes little sense to me to blame capitalism, which is simply a wild, raw process, for a flaw that originates in the culture, people's values or lax government oversight. Capitalism is just doing what it has always done--pursue more money and less costs, within the boundaries its overseers have set.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore

Well, yes, you're right...capitalism is a wild beast. I suppose the real point here is that we should control it and not the other way around.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

This article seems related to the topic of women and sexualization.

http://jezebel.com/#!5789220/one-third-of-you-would-shorten-your-lives-to-have-the-perfect-body

A significant percentage of women surveyed in an English study would trade some of their life away to have the "ideal body weight and shape."

The majority were dissatisfied with how they looked.

Proof (as if we needed any more) that all women, on some level, are nuts.

Oh, maybe it's just English women.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore

Is that crazy is it? Lol..it's only a year. Say, 79 years with a perfect body or 80 years with an imperfect one. I'd be tempted.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

No, read the article. It starts at a year and progresses from there. About 1% of those surveyed would be willing to trade over 20 years of life. More oxygen for the rest of us, I suppose.


Jane Bovary profile image

Jane Bovary 5 years ago from The Fatal Shore

Oh..yup, I see. Vanity, vanity..all is vanity. I suspect that 1% who answered yes are very young. They're not thinking it through.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 5 years ago from New York City Author

Indeed. Vanity to the point of delusion, it would seem. Perhaps international studies should weigh female life expectancy according to the level of physical attractiveness during one's life. For instance, an ugly year could count as less than one year of life, statistically. If one is only really a living person insofar as one is physically attractive, it might make sense...


tonymac04 profile image

tonymac04 5 years ago from South Africa

Here in South Africa we have the third highest proportion of women legislators (44.5%) in the world after Rwanda with 56.3% and Sweden with 45%.

This has been achieved through very deliberate setting of targets by all the parties represented in Parliament and the high commitment of the people of South Africa to a non-racial and non-sexist society.

Women are still however the poorest in our society and the most vulnerable to contact crimes. Women also make up by far the largest proportion of people living with HIV/AIDS.

Still I think we are making strides in correcting the previous disadvantaged position of women. I hope it continues.

I think that for women in a society like South Africa feminism is not a luxury or a fad but a matter of life and death. Feminism is also important in liberating men from the skewed perception of women as chattels or commodities.

Thanks for the interesting Hub.

Love and peace

Tony


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

Sadly men don't have that many rights or power if you had any idea how much men are oppressed you'd be less likely to think men are evil privileged bastards


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Dark:

I've rarely seen a comment that contained so much idiocy in so few words. Where did I say that men are "evil privileged bastards"?

And how is it that men are "oppressed"? Men have plenty of rights and power, in fact they have the majority all over the world. In the developed world, women have plenty of rights and power too.

I don't know what world you live in where women are "oppressing" men. Lol! Sounds tough! I suggest you spend a little less time perusing man-hating radical feminist blogs and more time in the real world.


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

Yes men are opressed men are stereotyped as sexual abusers despite the fact they make up the majority of sexual abuse victims while the majority of abusers are women. The only ignorance is yours you fail to see the glass sewer or the failures of society's own accepted hate of men. the fact you respond with insults just proves your ignorance


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secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

You are no better than radical feminists who think that women are oppressed at every turn in society.

Only the most radical feminists (who maybe constitute less than 1% of the population) stereotype men as sexual abusers.

And even if there was some kind of mainstream stereotype of men as sexual abusers, that alone would not constitute "oppression." Oppression requires an active and sustained effort at subjugation and manipulation from powerful institutions. If you think that exists in America, then you do not know what real oppression is. Take a look at the plight of women in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran and you will get an understanding of what oppression really means. Look at the Jews in Hitler's Germany. That's what "oppression" really means. To equate that with some moronic, lone, man-hating college professors or blogger is ridiculous.

How can society "hate" men when the vast majority of political leaders, successful business leaders, entertainers, successful creative people, scientists and others... are men? How do you explain that?

You claim I'm ignorant, yet provide no sources or evidence to back up your ridiculous assertions.


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

How about no parental rights or reproductive rights? The fact men are legally not capable of being rape victims despite the fact it happens constantly in the case of child-support fraud. Obama used father's day to insult all men. Also why are you talking about the middle east do you live there if so than you are right. Although men are universally disposable hell its humorous day time TV to have a woman torture and sexually mutilate men for wanting a divorce. men and boys are forcibly conscripted to fight wars. Radical feminists are not 1% unless you can't count. Tell me this Brian Banks was falsely accused of rape was released after the woman admitted this he still needs to register as a sex offender despite the fact the woman got 1.5 million dollars for a crime that never happened! The local DA has no plans to prosecute the woman that committed perjury If that's not oppressive you are as delusional and one sided as I thought.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

Of course men are legally capable of being rape victims. And yes, men have parental rights. I have a friend in his 40s, recently finalized his divorce, and has custody of his two kids, which he is delighted about. Where do you get your info, lol.

I don't know about the specific case you mentioned. But I will say, an isolated incident of injustice does not constitute widespread "oppression" on the order you are describing, in a country of hundreds of millions of people.

Sure, there are plenty of men who are shafted by the criminal justice system. There are plenty of women who are also screwed by the criminal justice system, yet I don't see you complaining about that.


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

i don't see you complaining about that, really I guess you're to ignorant to even my hubs on the subject I discuss these very issue here! Wow this is pointless you're to stupid to click a link. Now as for men being rape victims of women aka enveloping rape that is not on the FBI's definitions list. Which feminists helped mold. If men have parental right then why is it so hard for them to gain custody and visitation rights from abusive ex-wives? Women commit 50% of domestic violence case yet receive over 80% of all assistance for domestic violence.


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secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

I was referring to your posts here.

Voila, we see when push comes to shove you must resort to personal insults, instead of sticking to substance.

Enveloping rape--lol, are you serious? You honestly think that that is as much of a social problem as male-to-female rape or even sexual assault? Estimates are that something on the order of 20% of American women have been raped. About 1 to 2% of American men have (and that is ALL men that have been raped--whether the perpetrator was male or female). You can't fight the facts.

Now if a man is raped, of course it is horrible and it is a crime that should be punished to the fullest extent. But to say that this is an example of men being oppressed? If 1-2% means oppression, then what on earth does the 20% figure for women imply?!

Nobody is saying the legal system is perfect. But that is a far cry from "oppression" or men not having rights by virtue of being men, relative to women. Get some perspective.


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 4 years ago from Ohio

The only thing you have is insults you seem to fail to grasp the fact boys who are molested get lied to if you hate victim blaming then why do you support it when women are the molesters and boys are the victim? Also most feminist claim they care about men's issues but you clearly don't. Plus the lack of respect here has made talking with you a waste of time have the last word for all I care, but the fact about rape and violent crime against women has been dropping but its only increased for men. As for female privilege in the marines back when I served in 04 the women had a bunker on base with an AC unit and were protected by men, while being I fought in Operation Phantom Fury they sat in a bunker. Not to mention none of the things women endure is oppression either, when have women been rounded up death camps?


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City Author

I haven't insulted you at all. All I've done is point out the ludicrous nature of your arguments. I have no need to insult you because your arguments are ridiculous on their face. The only personal insults have come from you, calling me stupid, delusional, and so on.

It's a little tough to follow your arguments because of the grammatical mistakes, but I'll try to respond to this:

"if you hate victim blaming then why do you support it when women are the molesters and boys are the victim?"

What nonsense. First you claim, unprovoked, that I "think that men are evil privileged bastards." Now you claim that I support "victim blaming" when women molest boys. Amazing.

"Also most feminist claim they care about men's issues but you clearly don't."

I care about all human issues because I believe all humans are equal. Clearly you do not. And I never called myself a feminist.

"the fact about rape and violent crime against women has been dropping but its only increased for men"

Yet millions more women are raped than men. You can try to escape that fact with your fantastical vision of "oppression," but you can't.

"Not to mention none of the things women endure is oppression either,"

Well, if rape constitutes oppression for men, then it constitutes oppression for women too. You can't have it both ways.

"when have women been rounded up death camps?"

During World War II, among others.


Darkproxy profile image

Darkproxy 3 years ago from Ohio

In WW2 men were also rounded up fyi and not to mention you said rape of men wasn't oppression it was a bad justice system. also you can't get acurate numbers on how many men are raped by women because the legal definition of rape is always dubbed the act penetration, not to mention silly and idiot are insults that you said to me also I have plenty of links to back my statements up. I've said and will continue to say we are all oppressed equally. Five oranges and afive apples I've said men aren't all the free and equal you only see the men at the top whom are in politicians cases put in power by women the majority of voters.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 3 years ago from New York City Author

You began this conversation by accusing me personally of viewing men as "evil privileged bastards," which is offensive and insane.

You asked me when women were put into death camps, and I gave you an answer. You didn't ask for examples where only women were put in death camps.

"you said rape of men wasn't oppression it was a bad justice system."

I never said any such thing. You are twisting my words unfairly to support your irrational arguments.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that countless more women are raped every year than men? Why? If you truly cared about human suffering, you would place far more emphasis on the rape of women than you evidently are.

"not to mention silly and idiot are insults that you said to me"

I reiterate, I was referring to your arguments, not you personally. You, on the other hand, have personally insulted me. Deny all you want.

"I've said and will continue to say we are all oppressed equally."

You did not say that anywhere here. If you believe that, you should have said it at the beginning. The whole thrust of your comments has been on the "oppression" and harm done to men only. You have not acknowledged the harm done to women in equal measure, or you have sought to minimize it. This tells any rational observer that you are more concerned with men, and believe men are harmed more than women.

In any case, an individual instance of rape or sexual assault or any other crime does not alone constitute the "oppression" of an entire group of people.

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