Women Who like Feminine Men

Before starting I should make clear that I'm talking about straight guys who are feminine or effeminate or the more classy sounding word is androgynous. I know that many people associate this with gay men but that is very often wrong.

What do I mean by feminine men? Well, this is best left to each of you to decide for yourselves. It might refer to how they dress and how they carry themselves. For example if they wear feminine clothes or even womens clothes like a cross-dresser. Or it might just be a description of their behavior, such as if they are on the passive side and not afraid to be vulnerable. Then of course, it's down to how much femininity is in them. Are they so feminine that you could mistake them for a woman or are they just a hint girly? All these variations and nuances make a simple 'straight' answer kind of impossible to find.

The Phenomenon of Women liking Feminine Men

In recent years there have been some studies revealing that women prefer feminine men as long term partners. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a mass phenomenon by any means. Just a noticeable push - kind of like the increasing number of long distance relationships.

The reasons are quite obvious: In a time of peace and relative safety there is little need for a strong and protective man in your life. He can't protect you from the common dangers of modern life (accidents and illnesses mostly) and, statistically, men are in fact more affected by those dangers than women. Logic would dictate that women should start taking on more of a protective role and I believe we're seeing some of that happen right now but that's another topic.

The other reason is not so obvious: Intimacy and emotional connection. Those things are what a long term relationship is made of and they're hard to achieve with the old-fashioned rugged type.

What about Evolution?

People say we're genetically programmed to go for masculine men. If anything, we're programmed to go for partners that are most likely to produce successful children with us. In the past that may have been masculine men, but today it is not. So many people say now that it's still in our genes and won't go away anytime soon even if society has changed. The problem with that is that it's mostly just a guess. Just because women are often attracted to masculine men doesn't mean it's a genetic trait. It could, and probably is, mostly social.

Let me give you an example: Money. Today the best protection and guarantee for health and safety is having a stable source of money. This has not always been the case. But it has been like this for many centuries or even a few millennia. However that isn't long enough to significantly change our genetic make up. Yet, money is one of the key factors in women's attraction to men. Please note that I'm talking about broad statistics here and not you and me individually.

But, in the old days, there wasn't enough food and too much danger from rivals for money to be the reliable safety net that it is today. The saying "money can buy everything" is mostly true today but it wasn't in ancient history. If you weren't strong and powerful, then whatever money or valuables you had were most likely just taken away from you by those who are strong.

But women learned to 'switch' from seeking physically strong men to financially strong men very quickly from an evolutionary perspective. Too quick if you ask me. Our genes couldn't have changed so quickly to adapt to such a drastic change. So, for this reason I believe that attraction is mostly given by the circumstances we grow up in. Whatever teaches us at a young age that men should be, that makes up what we look for when we reach fertility.

That is not to say our genes have no influence. Of course they do and that explains why physically strong men are still the fantasy of many women. But they aren't as significant as the circumstantially learned attraction.

What about Me?

I make no secret of the fact that I like feminine men. As I wrote before, I even love them to wear women's clothes once in a while. But I also like masculinity. Though it is a strictly physical attraction. I love muscles. I just love them. Not the big bulky ones but the athletic type seriously get my heart pounding. Actually I love everything about the male body - the only exception being body hair and facial hair. A little on the arms and legs is fine but if it gets too much I get turned off.

I also love feminine traits in a guy's behavior. I love to see some vulnerability and in this sense I also like to see the physically delicate type. I know that contradicts how I like muscles but that's just the way I am. That physically delicate and vulnerable type of man gives me a sort of protective instinct. I just want to hold him tight and keep him safe from the big bad world. I never decided to be that way, it's just what comes up in response to what I see around me.

Dating Feminine Men

We've all heard these rules about dating and how you should behave, not to come on too strong, not to seem desperate or anything like that. All this is different with feminine men. I'm not saying that it's the other way around and that you should behave like a man who's looking for a woman. I'm just saying that there are no rules anymore. In some cases you need to approach him and in others you don't. I know that isn't much help but if it's any consolation, they don't know what rules to play by either. You're just going to have to feel your way into every new person you meet and see what makes them tick.


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Comments 65 comments

Joannne profile image

Joannne 6 years ago from Albany NY

Hi Lucy. Glad you posted some new hubs here too. I haven't figured out how to comment on your other site.


subluna 6 years ago

Dear Lucy83,

You talk about androgynous men as feminine or effeminate. I have been tested as having a brain about 45 per cent female. To be androgynous is said to be between 40 and 60 per cent feminine. (There are other limits to be sure).

As much as i can understand i appear not as a feminine or effeminate man but i am submissive and can very easily adopt my behavior to the requirement of a Supreme Woman.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 6 years ago Author

Hi Joanne.

The site was having problems for a while but I think it's fixed. Comments should work again. At the bottom of the articles you can comment pretty much like it works here.


threesweds 6 years ago

Lucy, Good hub, I only wish there were more women like you who really accept men with feminine traits. Thank goodness my girlfirend does. I frequently wear panties and we often shop together for lingerie, however I dress like a man on the outside.


jrock55 6 years ago

How come I can't can't seem to become a follower of your hubs? I follow Hope Alexander and I'd like to follow you, but I can't seem to find where to click to follow you.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 6 years ago Author

No idea rjock. I think you have to click on my profile and then find it under one of the many options there.


Loverednails profile image

Loverednails 6 years ago from London

Hi Lucy,

Just wanted to say how wonderful it was to come across someone with such similar views. I have read many articles about the subject I was delighted to read your views. I consider my self to be a confident, strong open minded woman who finds masculinity attractive like most. However I also have a great love for men who are in touch with the feminine side to the point where they dress as female. I feel more in tune with them and have much closer relationships which extend to one similar to two best friends. I have been with my current partner for over 4 years and love the fact that he makes as mush effort as most of us women do to maintain his appearance. This doesn’t mean to say I don’t want him to look handsome and there is noting more I enjoy then to see him dressed in a suit for those special occasion however at the same time, on day to day bases, I like him to look and ace feminine.


shefalive 5 years ago

Hi Lucy

I have read almost all your hubs and I truly admire you. I am a crossdresser myself. I think you can certainly provide an answer to this strange thing I have noticed in women.Most of the women are comfortable with such crossdressing men who are not in relation to them. They even admire them. But they simply oppose crossdressing if the person is in relation to them i.e. their boyfriend, brother or husband.

Do you agree with it? If yes what do you think may be the reason behind it?


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi shefalive,

I think lots of people are very closed minded. I can only say that for my part, crossdressing is a very positive thing in a partner or any other man. I don't know why some women are ok with it except for their boyfriends. Probably they have an image in their minds that the boyfriend has to match.


scrappycoco profile image

scrappycoco 5 years ago from Ohio

First I just wanted to say hello Lucy it's nice to hear a female oppinion on men like myself. Awhile back I read a book that was ment to try to help men understand how there wifes think (Can't recall the name) Anyway I do recall one thing it said "That women growing up learn to look at there father as the man or head of houshold." So when they go to look for a mate a lot of times they look for a mate that they think or feel resembles there father. This I can relate to, my wife who I have been married to for almost 17yrs, makes comments to me all the time about how she thinks all guys should be that over bearing, hunting, tall dark and handsome type guy. Now as that relates to what I am saying here her father is a very tall man not big muscle mind you but your typical tall man, but he is in every sense of the word your tyipical "MAN" So when it comes to me she has a real hard time with the fact of who I am, cause lets face it im not what the world says is your tyipical male.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi scrappycoco,

thanks for the feedback. I think there is some truth in that. At least, I can say that I grew up with a very gentle father who let my mom make most of the decisions. I suppose that was what a man is to me.


Dennis 5 years ago

I am a guy who has always enjoyed dressing up on occasion as a female. I have always thought that women have about 1,000 more ways and options to dress up. It is so obvious. Go into store and look at how many things women have compared to the men. Women can play more with hair (wigs), makeup, nails, lingerie, jewelry, accessories, shoes, dresses, skirts, etc. On and on. I am not bi or gay. I feel like a completely normal guy and do everything guys do in life. I think this is a way to express a feminine side of me that society does not allow us to do. I think that if women would see the fun in it and not blow a fuse, they would enjoy it too. More things to share. Think of it - why do women think it is a blast for a guy to dress up on Halloween and help him but if he does do it when not on Halloween they blow a fuse. Why should women see it different whether on Halloween or not it is still just having fun. Maybe because it is more acceptable on Halloween. When I dress up, it is my secret and I plan to keep it that way. In a relationship it can still be a secret. I am very open and enjoy the company of females. I am not one of those macho guys just trying to please himself and not care about the women's thoughts and needs. Women are fun to be around. I also enjoy going shopping with a woman to give opinions and help her to look her best as a woman. I enjoy pampering a woman also. I am a great guy and think that women should see the fun and benefits of us cross dressers. For me it is only a part time thing. I have a nice paying job and own investments. I am a guy most of the time. Women, give us a try. You may see the fun in it, like it and find a really nice guy to be with. If you are a woman and would like to contact me for any reason, you can reach me at XDress4Fun@aol.com


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi Dennis, thanks for the comment.

I think there are several reasons behind women who don't care much for crossdressers. One is they don't know anything about it beyond what they've seen in the media (That was me years ago). The next is, they are very conformist and want something "normal" (these are the younger ones and it gets better as they grow up).

But the biggest reason is probably because so few men stand up for their right to do so. Most keep it secret or let their wives forbid them to crossdress. That way it stays a dirty little secret in society when it doesn't have to be. You can't change all men so they start doing what they want as opposed to only what is expected of them. But you can be like that yourself. See my article on how to tell your girlfriend that you crossdress.

Good luck Dennis.


KerryMaxCook 5 years ago

Hi Lucy. I am a submissive male. I have tried and tried in many ways to let go of ego, image and male pride to be true towards my beliefs in total Female Supremacy, but by and large all females I meet are very turned off by a sissy male who wants to be a maid to a Superior female. Can you point to me in one place in particular and not some online "Dominatrix"site? I like the non-sexual realism of this chat I read here.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi Kerry,

You could try what they call "munches". From what I've heard they often have a healthy male-female ratio but since I've never been to one, I can't speak from experience.

I agree you probably won't have much luck on any paid sites that try to entice you with a lot of pictures and videos. Genuine dating sites maybe.

Otherwise the best thing is to just meet lots of real people and learn by doing. Most women or men wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who just wants to be a slave say and night. They exist but they are rare. But I'm sure you'll find many 'normal' women who are happy to take control to some degree.


KerryMaxCook 5 years ago

Thank you for your comments. That is helpful. I have spent so many thousands of dollars on these professional types and it is never the real, sincere Superior, dominant type female. I have a fully and complete processional career, but strictly speaking, Lucy, my predilection for Female Superior goes deep and is complete. It is so deep and sincere, I could post this so openly to you.

Again, thank you and I would like to pay my respects from time to time, if possible.


Riz696 profile image

Riz696 5 years ago

Dear Lucy,

I came across your hub few days ago and was really thrilled by articles. It’s reassuring to meet someone who has looked at subject of femininity in men with such an open mind. You have tackled some issues which I hope will help make people more aware of the subject which can only people like my self.

I am a guy who has always been in touch with my feminine side. I don’t categorise my self as a CD, TV or TG as I belive everyone is different and also because my needs have evolved over time. I have changed from someone who had strong urges to dress as female, whist still being quite masculine and very afraid to show any femininity in my nature as a guy, to so someone who vary rarely dresses but at the same time is more feminine in everyday life. This is someone I have evolved into over time and I think it’s partly due to my friendship with more females then males. I have felt closer then ever before and my wife is now also my best friend.

I got married about 3 years ago and even at that stage, I would feel the need to dress but I didn’t tell my wife. Over the time we have been married; my wife discovered my feminine nature and encouraged this side of me. She encouraged me to ware little make-up from time to time in the way of gloss, foundation and so on. One day however she came across some pictures of me dressed but she still very shocked as she wasn’t expecting this. At first she thought I was having an affaire but as she looked at the pictures more closely, she noticed a mark on my arm and realised it was actually me. She was very upset as you can imagine.

Sine then, we have become more open and although I don’t dress fully, I incorporate feminine clothes and looks in my everyday social life. When we go out shopping, I often buy female jeans and tops and she encourage this. I think the thing that attracted me to her was in fact my feminine nature. She likes the fact we can go shopping together and share ideas.

I am very lucky to be able to express my female nature but it would not be fare on her to dress fully until she can understand and cope with whom I am. I also don’t feel the need as it is more important for me to express my feminine self in my everyday life.

It is refreshing to meet a woman like your self who can appreciate femininity in men and I would like to thank you for writing such interesting articles. I look forward to reading more. I particularly like the sentence “As I wrote before, I even love them to wear women's clothes once in a while.”

Love Riz x


juliette.lapeyre 5 years ago

I am new in your organisation, i love this article,

many thank's, I appreciate a lot that you think;

Love, juliette


Tim Ellis 5 years ago

Many men who are in touch with their feminine side are not gay, and they are looking for women for relationships.These women unfortunately are very rare.I find women incredibly desireable and also have the desire to emulate them as much as I'm allowed to.


sugga 5 years ago

I'm atracted to gays and I don't know why..I'm completely straight like I wouldn't even kiss a woman I like penis but I don't know there must be something beautiful about the guy I'm atracted to I also like skinny boys and I'm not turned on by juicebags at all.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi sugga,

who knows why we're attracted to certain types? Certainly I can relate to being attracted to beautiful guys.


Meh22 5 years ago

I know this is old, but I just wanted to say that your taste in men sounds EXACTLY like mine. Some people think it's weird that I love feminine guys though.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 5 years ago Author

Hi Meh22,

threads like this get revived once in a while and eventually I read all the comments that come here.

I know it can be difficult having a deviant taste but it's also a lot of fun!


silkysissy 4 years ago

Dearest Lucy83,I have just read your articles and they are wonderful.As you can tell by my screen name I love Women and am very into Female Superiorty.I find Women to be Queens and worship all of you.I love my feminine side and exibit it as much as possible.I can hardly wait to read more!Love you and all Ladies.Femforever,silkysissy


Patriot1 4 years ago

I scare a lot of women off because I'm too masculine for them. Most of the women where I live are femi-libs who date wimpified males. I wear cowboy boots and a rebel flag hat, I like whiskey and country music, I drive a pickup truck, I own lots of guns, and I have a Grizzly Adams beard. If I find me a lady I know she'll be a real woman, if not, I'm fine with that too.


Semi Preppy 4 years ago

Hello lucy and thanx for your post:). Im one of those guys you are talking about and it,s nice to know there are women like you who not only can tolerate us but actually love us as well.I,m a preppy laptop starbucks motorscooter kind of guy. I sang close to you by karen carpenter at kareoke one night and there were a few blue collar type rugged women who really took notice. Again thanks lucy i love MASCULINE WOMEN!


sissyinsilk 4 years ago

My greatest desire is to be able to live my life as freely and open as I do when I am at home; enjoying the full expression of my femininity. My deepest fear is that I will be caught in the full expression of my femininity. As best as I can determine, this is the real definition of having my panties in a wad.


SUGAAA 4 years ago

Yuck no I have a lot of estrogen and need testosterone. I like them manly and old fashioned preferably Southern. There are so many girly guys in Denver. I'm glad someone wants them. Personally I don't want a guy who cannot wear the pants but to each his own and I love that you aren't afraid to proclaim it! You should move here you would be in hog heaven!


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Sugaaa

you can prefer whatever you want but I do not tolerate such denigration of minorities - especially oppressed minorities. If you think I'm overreacting then simply imagine your first comment was referring to black people.


Irene 4 years ago

The man that I am in love with who is my ex now for a month and who I was with for 11 months, had some feminine traits that I simply adored!! He dresses like a man, and even tho he has a mean side to him and can be a major asshole, he has this sweet side to him too. And he has feminine features, has long hair which he always has to spend a lot of time on to get it done right, and something about his femininity turns me on!! I love it!!! He doesn't 'act' like a girl or look like one, but he has like no body hair and not too much facial hair and he always smells good and wears lotion every day and has super smooth skin and I just love that about him. I have a high level of testosterone and wonder if that has anything to do with it. LOL. Either way, I used to LOVe this man. :)


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

@ Sugaaa:

If you were to take an average man from the Victorian Era and ask him for his opinion on the women of today, he might say the exact same thing in reverse about women - The women of today don't have a clue what MEN want; they have no idea what MEN find attractive. I want someone who makes me feel more like a man, whose feminine attributes complement my masculine ones. Call me old-fashioned but I want a REAL woman, not someone who keeps her femininity covered up with pants and suits like a man!

In fact; you find blogs written by women specifying what men should and should not wear, and it irks me a little that these women have the cheek to tell men what to wear, while at the same time enjoying her freedom to wear pretty much anything under the sun so long as it isn't too obscene. Remember that was exactly how men treated women in the past- And if a man were to dare say something to the extent of "women should ONLY wear skirts and dresses, because honestly...they look funny in pants and I can't helpp laughing at a woman in a pair of slacks. You can always express your individuality through your dress, but no; I don't see why you need to wear pants.", then he's a chauvinistic, backward-minded pig; but if a woman does the same about a man in a skirt, then she's simply being... An opinionated woman who isn't afraid of expressing her opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right, and if we truly respect equality, then its only fair that men be freed from being caged within the rigid, conservative tightrope we call "masculinity".


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Exactly Berenice.

You wouldn't believe how many such cases I've come across. Probably the majority of crossdressers in relationships are either doing it secretly because their partner won't allow (!!!) them or they have some "arrangement" by which they get a certain number of hours per week or where they agree to never do it while she is at home etc. And then you even get those women telling themselves and each other they're being all sympathetic and forthcoming. I got into some argument at one of those crossdressers wives forums over exactly this.

I always say the same thing to those boys: If you let somebody in your own home forbid you from wearing what you want, then you can hardly expect people in the streets and workplace to have any tolerance.


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

It's shocking I know, how some wives react when they find out about their partners' crossdressing. And one of the main reasons why nobody (except people like you) want to stand up for these men is I think the fear of being labelled "anti-feminist", because from my experience with my feminist friends (even the male ones), any form of criticism towards a woman is automatically perceived as "anti-feminist", or "misogynistic", even though they may be valid criticisms. I was particularly troubled by one of the comments on this lady's blog post Feminine Trends on Menhttp://izettl.hubpages.com/hub/Dude-Looks-Like-A-L... which states:

"I’ll pass them all. Behind me is a long line of women who can have them. The last time I looked at statistics there were seven women for each man. So there will be at least one desperate (!!!) woman out of seven who will grab whatever she gets. Let’s face it, some people will rather be dead as out of fashion. Men who look like women, look just as weird as women who look like men. But I don’t judge them. Let them be whatever they want to be. As long as they don’t expect admiration from me."

I was literally SPEECHLESS! What on earth have these men done to warrant such vitriol? Okay fine; maybe that woman isn't ATTRACTED to feminine men, and that's fine, but I don't understand why she has to go to the extent of condemning them as undesirable, and insisting that the only women who will date these men are desperate women who can't get anything else. To me it seems that she is not only "not attracted" to them, which is fine; we can't choose who we fall in love with, it seems as if she literally HATES them! For WHAT?! For something as harmless as expressing their feminine side? Not hurting anyone in the process? Furthermore, she says she doesn't "judge" them.HAH!


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

Sorry; wrong URL! Here's the link to that site

https://bellatory.com/misc/Dude-Looks-Like-A-Lady-...


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Hi Berenice.

Wow that's a nasty place. Thanks for the link though.

I couldn't put myself through reading it properly though. I just sort of skimmed it and bumped into this comment:

"There is nothing worse than a man who has better legs than you and looks better in heels!"

I think that comment says a lot more than intended. You see, many women are socialized from an early age to rely on looks and sex appeal to rise in social status. When confronted with the possibility that a man might have this too, they feel like they're losing everything that makes them female and they're left with nothing.

This is just one comment but I've seen this pattern a lot - even in myself (I sometimes feel envious of the pretty girly boy types. They're like the perfect creature - the best of all worlds). I've also heard of crossdressers of the more convincing kind that say women tend to get hostile and even violent.

When I hear women complain that men can't handle them having a more successful career, I wonder what their reaction would be if men started winning beauty contests on an even playing field and getting all the attention for their looks. Equality goes both ways.


ros 4 years ago

I am very happy to find your blog, I feel 100% identified with everything you say I'll keep reading you ! :)


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Thanks ros.


vivianann 4 years ago

I am happy to see your blog about efeminate men. I am a crossdresser and very much attracted to women. Most women I meet when I am dressed as a woman are supportive and accepting, however they would not want to be in a relationship with a crossdresser like me. There are some women who are attracted to the efeminate me at first site, but 24 hrs later they have a change of heart about continueing the relationship with me,some are in tears when they tell me, and some avoid me all together after that. It is very frustrating. I suffer loneliness really bad, but I would rather be alone than be with a woman who forbids me to crossdress. I am more comfortable in womens clothes than in mens clothes anyway, so I want to live full time dressed as a woman. My friends who know me tell me that I seem much happier when I am dressed as a woman, when I am dressed as a woman I feel like I am complete as a person. I don't want a sex change, I want to stay male, but live as female. Some peaple tell me I should expand my search for a significant other to include men, and or other crossdressers, but I am not attracted to them as I am to a woman. I would like your suggestion about that. Anyway thanks again for your thoughts about those of us who likes to wear womens clothes.

Hopelessly lonely, Vivian


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Hi Vivian,

your attitude is great. I wish more people would have your strength of character. I can't say much about whom you should hook up with. I do know that a number of crossdressers get attracted to each other when they're dressed. If not for a date then perhaps for companionship?


Sam 4 years ago

Hi Lucy may I ask do you identify yourself as a feminist and please say yes because I have taken an interest in it and would like to talk to a feminist. I have read things on the internet bt I would be happier if I talk to a feminist.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Sorry but I have to disappoint you. No feminist here. I'm for true equality and while some feminists do want this, they're too few to be representative.


Sam 4 years ago

Sorry it took a whie to write back. Another reason why I asked is because feminism kind of scares me at times because I have read things like what Mary Daly and Valerie Salona have written that male humans needs to be reduced or eliminated or dominated. I have a form of autism so I am a very impressionable person. I know that not all males rape or beat women or cut down forests or pollute the environment but being very impressionable I cant get thoughts like that out of my head but I have stoped reading those things. I don't really care wheather or not man haters like them care about men or not if they are that narrow minded that is there problem it is the things they say about men that scare. I know there are men out there like that but not all why cant these women just judge men as individuals the way they want to be judged I don't want to be hated and judged simply just for what I am I want to be judged and loved as an individual for who I am. I just want for my gender what women want for there's to not be reduced, eliminated, dominated, or hated.


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

Hey Lucy; ya noe at the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I don't know if this is true or not, but tying in what you said with feminism... I think the reason why many feminists get defensive when people mention men's issues when it comes to clothing and self-expression (e.g. "Oh please; poor poor men, not allowed to wear make-up; better paid, better respected, over-privileged!") is because they perhaps feel like their "turf" is being threatened when a beautiful man comes along, hence the reason why they don't stand up for men when it comes to these issues. Historically, the reason why men have been so uptight towards women taking part in athletics/business/law/etc is because of the fear that they might be "beaten at their own game", so to speak. In other words, sports, business, bodybuilding/etcetc has historically been what made men feel special. When a talented female athlete comes along, our male egos are crushed, and we fear that we may be beaten at what makes us feel special. But just as there is more to being a woman than being beautiful, men should also realize that there is more to being a man than being a superb athlete/bodybuilder/career person/etc. Men were extremely resistant to women wearing trousers, climbing the business ladder, and taking part in sports, because it was what made them feel SPECIAL as men. Even today I have to confess that when I come across a pro female gymnast/thai boxer, I feel a pang of insecurity, which has been socially conditioned into me. I used to feel that I was losing everything that made me male, but nowadays I've grown a lot more mature. I understand that, "Hey; i may not be as great an athlete as these women, but there's more to being a man than being athletic/financially wealthy/strong/etc"; but if the reason women (even some feminists) are aggressive/indifferent towards feminine men is because they feel their femininity being threatened, then I think I can understand when I tie it in to my own experience and feelings of inadequacy at meeting superbly athletic women. Feminists are women too, despite all their mantra about equality between the sexes.

I also wanted to point out another myth, that I feel mainstream feminism seems to keep ignoring, which is the myth that men are more liberated than women in Western society.

People who have watched the Korean Drama Bridal Mask (PS Korean Dramas are full of beautiful men!), which is set in the 1930s Korea during the Japanese Occupation would understand what people mean when they say patriarchy screws around with men as well. Take the hero's best friend, the Japanese schoolmaster Shunji for example. His father (who is the main villain) never was very loving toward his sons, at least on the surface; never expressed his love for either of his sons openly, because men are supposed to be hard and dignified. And nothing Shunji ever does is good enough for his father and brother, because he chooses to be a simple schoolteacher, and not follow in their footsteps and join the police force, and his hard-as-nails father eventually disowns him out of shame and disappoinment. Shunji only becomes an imperial officer in order to please his dad and avenge his brother's death, despite the fact that he hates bit of that "strictly straight", rigidly defined hegemonically masculine gender role. He hates his uniform; he hates what it represents (male repression and colonial oppression). He hates the job. He hates the people he works with. He misses his kids. (his pupils) He puts on a tough and angry facade during the day, but cries himself to sleep at night. This slowly but surely has an effect on his happiness and his sanity, and his relationships with people (because men aren't allowed to relate their feelings to anyone), and turns him from a gentle schoolmaster into a violent, angry and moody man. So it's not that men were exactly "free" to do masculine things and present themselves in a masculine manner, while women had to "win" that "freedom". They were EXPECTED to behave in a rigidly defined, hegemonically masculine manner whether they liked it or not, or be marginalized by their friends and families, and even society, which meant that men historically had far, far less control over their lives than we like to think they had. In other words, this basically means that men were equally if not more repressed than women when it came to expressing themselves, since women could talk about their feelings while men were socially obliged to button them up. So when someone says men have more freedom to do as they please than women, I have to say: "COME ON, what makes you think men are/have been free to be themselves?"


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Hi Sam,

I couldn't agree more. Those women you speak of usually come from a background of internalized hatred of their gender. People don't hate just because they want to. There's nearly always some dark flip side to it. Generally, if you don't hate yourself, you don't normally hate anyone else either - especially large groups of people.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Hi Berenice. Thanks for another great comment. That film sounds interesting too.

You know, I really haven't noticed men being defensive about their turf. At least not to women. I know this is what people keep saying but I just haven't encountered it. Also historically, I haven't seen much of this (though I haven' exactly looked either). Even when women are defensive about their turf, I think only a minority seem to be like that. I can only speak for myself with athletics that I seriously envy the male physique. Envy coupled with fascination. Then again, I've known plenty of men who feel that way about the female physique.


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

lol Well i think most younger men are really cool with women being emancipated and all, but a lot of older men I think are a little defensive about these kinds of things. I remember reading a blog (i think it's called Fitnessblackbook.com) in which the author (a slightly older man) was really adamant about women not lifting heavy weights, because men "don't want them to look like that" (like a "bulky" and "scary" female fitness model). The bodybuilder Charles Atlas for instance is quoted to have said, "Women these days are too selfish; mothers running here and there wearing pants like a man, showing their backsides to people. What is this? They should be home, cooking nutritious meals for their families, not out showing backsides!" Although I told my mom about it, and she said that the hostility is partly due to men these days being very confused about their role in society. I read this really fair-minded lady's blog (http://open.salon.com/blog/big_fat_trauma_queen/20... , and she was saying something that really struck a chord:

"Today, men are told they are no longer needed in their old protector-provider roles, but that they are wimps and losers (at best) if they take on nurturing, caregiving "female" roles. "

Somehow that has apparently made some men abit hostile, but Lucy; do you think this hostility may perhaps be out of jealousy? I sometimes wonder if this may be due to jealousy on the part of these men, seeing women being free to emancipate their roles in society, while being stuck within their own gender straightjacket. I used to envy the female physique, would you believe it! When i was a boy I constantly upheld the female physique as being aesthetically superior and more worthy of display than the male's, and it took me years to get over this cultural brainwashing, that the male body is funny, not sexy. You constantly read on forums and stuff like that the male body is apparently "not sexy", and that women don't want to see the male body exposed openly, because looking at the male body is about as boring as looking at landscapes, and that only gay men can appreciate the male body visually. Most straight guys have been lead to believe that, actually; that heterosexual women would rather look at naked women than naked men. And even some straight women have said things like "The male body doesn't turn me on; there's just something not sexy about it! I mean I'm straight, I'm not sexually attracted to women, but I don't find the exposed male body to be particularly aesthetically pleasing compared to the female body. I'd rather see it fully covered up." Of course; this myth these days is slowly being shattered, but a lot of young men grow up without the sense that women gaze at their bodies the same way they gaze at women's bodies, and that can be a bummer for men who want their beauty to be admired in the same way they admire women's beauty. And with articles like these, ( http://www.gq.com/news-politics/mens-lives/201111/... it's not very encouraging for these young men who aren't aware of their own bodies' aesthetic worth. I worked at a male strip club as a topless barman for a stint back when I was an undergrad at Adelaide, and you will not believe how crazy those drunken women went at the sight of our semi-naked bodies! I think that men's bodies are in no way less "sexy" than women's; straight men have subscribed to that myth for ages, but that will slowly change, with time. =)

PS I am really really eager to read your next blog post, I honestly feel your posts are highly thought-provoking and interesting. Thanks =)


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

PS I think part of the reason some men crossdress (dress to actually pass as women) is because they feel that there is nothing innately "beautiful" and "worthy of admiration" about the male body, due to all this cultural brainwashing straight men have about the male body.

(Gay men know that the male body is no less aesthetically challenged than the female body. But most straight men do not)


Sam 4 years ago

Thank you for responding Lucy. Some other things that bother me does feminism discriminate men they keep on saying oh no we don't discriminate men and yet I have read them say and do things that if it were about women it would immediately be labeled sexist. They say sexism is discrimination through power and yet some of them say it is behavior and attitude. Do they really honestly beleive they are not discriminating or are they just saying that to shut men up. They sometimes say things like I realise how inadequete and inane men are and that all men know is to oppress and exploit and honestly at times all of this makes me hate myself just for what I am. I love women I truly do I cant imagine myself being happy without being with one but feminists sometimes make me feel like I cant because they have said things like the slavery of Het conformity and that it may be more of a patriarchal constraint rather then a women's natural sexual choice but honestly I don't know what any of this means though. They say things like lesbianism (mind you I am not homophobic) is a positive alternative for women. Well it may be an alternative but it is not always a positive one because lesbian couples batter, rape, abuse each others children, and sometimes kill each other as much as heterosexual couples do and supposedly feminists know about that and actively work to cover it up. Feminists makes me feel that no matter what I do no matter how good of a person I am I will never be good enough because I am male. :'(


Sam 4 years ago

One more thing there are feminists out there who say that when women do something wrong it is patriarchy's fualt because men and women are internaly indoctrined or brinwashed or conditioned or anything ese that fits that definition what is up with that how is it that patriarchy is responsible for womens mistakes.


Sam 4 years ago

I recenty came across a hub called the unfortunate fall of woman (power most likely) I found it in your Matriarchy article but I didn't read it litteraly because I was scared of what I might find. Are women really always victims and men always perpetrators even when they are really victims. In the past I have sometimes wished I was a women because of I have read a couple of women who think men are ugly and that really hurts me. Feminism is torturing me emotionally and mentally I can honestly say I hate feminism not because I want submissive women but because of how negatively it portrays men. They say that women are portrayed badly in art, film, media, and sometimes literature but what about how men are portrayed these stupid ignorant feminists and man haters make me sick.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

I think this idea that the male body isn't beautiful probably comes from a mainstream media that focused almost entirely on a heterosexual male audience. That's surely not the only thing the media get wrong. This idea that women gaze at women I think is more of a misunderstanding of how straight women see each other. Yes we do often gaze or admire other women but not out of lust. More a kind of envy or admiration or a "that's how I'd like to look" thought. Then we're supposed to get motivated and buy all the cosmetics , diets and what not that are depicted in those messages. I think perhaps a male equivalent would be how straight men sometimes worship another man as their hero (usually some football star or something like that). In both cases they're looking for an ideal role model.

But you raise an important point in how this negative portrayal of the male physique (and not just that) must affect boys growing up. Like I said before, I think boys are absolutely not being valued enough.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

I think many of those feminists who say they're against sexism probably don't even notice their own sexism. They genuinely want equality only they don't grasp the full implication of that goal - what they'd have to give up and how many privileges they have been enjoying. It's like a child who demands more freedom from its parents and doesn't see what burden of responsibility the parents have that came with their freedom.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

This goes exactly in hand with what I just wrote about their mindset.


Sam 4 years ago

I am sorry if I mysef sound a bit sexist I am not trying to be I just feel as if my gender is being systematically discriminated by feminists I mean just a couple weeks ago I read a comment from a feminist who said I wish men would just stay in there sheds and leave us alone and yet she speaks of equality. Previousy I read something from another feminist who said there is something wrong with men and the only way to cure them of there aillment is to genetically modify there androgen or something like that like we do with corn seriuosly I am not joking.


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

Sam: I know exactly how you feel brother! I always tell men not to assume that women are naturally "nicer" than men; in fact, I've found that when it comes to male gender issues, I personally feel that I can relate better to men; men are more likely to be able to comprehend the things men go through better than woman can. Well, except for women like Lucy that is!

Lucy: I know; I understand that mainstream media has for the most part been devoted to the heterosexual male gaze; in fact, there was once a point in time in the Victorian ages when people (straight men) assumed that women all viewed the male body in a completely asexual manner, and that the only reason women had sex with men was to reproduce. In fact, our culture actually treats the male body the exact same way the Greeks and the Romans treated the female body - The Ancient Greeks and Romans maintained that the male body was naturally more aesthetically pleasing than the female form, and therefore more worthy of physical display.

I came across this article which ties in with what you said about certain women feeling threatened by male beauty; and I think the lady who wrote this is revealing more than intended:

http://www.effortlessgent.com/what-girls-want-to-s...

"However, leave the form-fitting gear to us ladies and our obscenely expensive Lululemon yoga pants (you know, the ones that make our butts look so cute)."

"Also? Sleeves. Sleeves are good. Granted, I can’t work out in anything but a tank top, so this may sound hypocritical, but I prefer a guy with a little upper-arm modesty at the gym. If you’re snapping up tank tops at the store or snipping the sleeves off your tees, that’s your prerogative, but in my mind, the muscle tee look has become synonymous with the bulked-up guys on Jersey Shore and the term “juiceheads”."

Juiceheads? Immodest? I'm sure she wouldn't be thrilled if a Fundamentalist Muslim man had said, "If you're snapping up tank tops and tight pants at the gym, then that's your prerogative; but in my mind, that look has become synonymous with the airheaded chicks on Gossip Girl and the term sl*ts."


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

http://forladiesbyladies.com/index.php/2009/03/30/...

See that's exactly what I mean! (Sorry for the ranting Lucy ^^)

70 years ago this female blogger wouldn’t even have been allowed to wear PANTS! So really; she would be mistaken to say that short shorts are a “woman's” garment! (at least when Western society is concerned).

Frankly, her blog post is just about as ridiculous as a skirt-wearing man insisting that short skirts are a “man’s garment”, and the only people who can look good in them are men. Imagine her horror and shock if that were to happen!

Her grandmother fought for her right to wear suits and trousers in public, and that fight was successful. Men finally gave in, and allowed women's liberation to take place, and now some of these "liberated" women are even trying to ban us from wearing what was originally ours! =S


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

What a moron she is. Unfortunately she's probably got quite a following - heaven knows why.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

How do you manage to stumble across such ridiculous articles Berenice? I can't imagine they make you or anyone else feel any better and one can find idiots like that no matter what subject we're talking about.

Still, thanks for this last link. I really liked some of the pic in there :)


BereniceTeh90 profile image

BereniceTeh90 4 years ago

LOL, i was doing some research! Because i always wondered why mainstream men's fashion was so much more conservative and restricted than the ladies', which is why i did abit of research on things like men wearing short shorts and how people react, etcetc. NO, these articles do not make me feel any better, lol, but they do help me to understand people's mindsets a little better. Believe it or not Lucy, there WAS a brief movement in the sexual revolution of the 70s which aimed to liberate men from the gender straightjacket, and it involved guys wearing things that were once considered tabboo, e.g. short shots, colorful tank tops, feminine articles of clothing, etcetc. But then when Reagan and his conservative administration came into power in the 80s, that was when that movement was crushed, and men's fashion became conservative all over again. (if you flip thru an issue of GQ/FHM today you'll find many of the things that were acceptable in the 70s, e.g. short shorts, low-cut necklines, sleeveless tops, tights, etc are considered "Fashion mistakes". And I don't think skirts and dresses need mentioning) Suddenly the exposed male body became synonymous with homosexuality (because of the old-school right-wing theory that went along the lines that women don't like looking at men's exposed bodies), anything remotely revealing/feminine on men was suddenly considered "gay". This was one of the factors that lead mainstream men's fashion to revert back to repressive 1950s conservatism, and it's been that way ever since! Now guys like me, your boyfriend and a couple of other dudes are fighting to swing the pendulum back to the liberal side of things, but we're getting a lot of resistance from the Don Drapers (Don Draper is a very conservative businessman from the TV series Mad Men) of society, who prefer things to stay the way it is.

But I think part of the reason why women's fashions change every 2 years, and men' fashions change every 200 years is because, well honestly... Men don't like change! I've spoken to some friends and they say they change their clothes once every few years, so the fact is that the majority of straight dudes don't seem to be interested in shopping for clothes all that much. Furthermore, I've seen that trait in myself at times; when I suddenly get thrown into a new routine, I get very distressed for a period of time. But therein lies the chicken and egg syndrome: Do most men dislike shopping for clothes because men's fashion is just so... Horrendously restricted and ultra-conservative? Or is men's fashion so restricted, boring and ultra-conservative because most men aren't that picky about what they wear? (Hence, no complaints about the lack of variety and freedom of self-expression) haha

You're welcome! I thought some of the guys weren't bad looking either! Got one more for you, have you seen some of Marc Jacob's pics? As a straight guy, even I think he's attractive!

http://news-cdn.stylecaster.com/wp-content/blogs.d...


Francine 4 years ago

Lucy, your mature, considered perspective is so welcome. We hybrids with male AND female hearts struggle to make sense of our experience in this world. Really, very few cultures get it right with us. Nice to know that there are intelligent and lusty women like you out there.


Sam 4 years ago

I like to think of myself as somewhat feminine I am curious about womens clothing sometimes makeup and I like doing thing that women usually do. I use to play with barbie dolls when I was younger I sometimes would wear my mom's shoes in secret and I love snugging. I ofteb snuggle with my pillows and blankets and imagine it is a woman I am snuggling with.


Lucy83 profile image

Lucy83 4 years ago Author

Well boyfriend has no interest in men's fashion and so he's as boring and tasteless in that regard as any typical guy can get. When clothes shopping his attention always wanders off toward the women's department. So in his case the chicken came before the egg... or whatever.

Thanks for the link. Nice but some of the others were more according to my taste. This looks like a perfectly regular masculine guy. I never saw anything feminine about kilts.


George Washington 4 years ago

One thing I must point out is that Reagan's belief in forcing men to cover their bodies in pants is no different than the Taliban forcing women to wear burkas. Politicians (as well as the public) have no business, or right, to impose a big government dictatorship on the fashion industry - a clear violation of our Founding principles of freedom of expression and individual liberty. No wonder young people (myself included) generally vote Democratic, as they have come to view the Republicans as in favor of interfering in the personal lives of Americans.


Jay 4 years ago

LOL I was there in the 80's and we wore much shorter shorts, 1/2 cut tee shirts and many other things that are TABOO now. It had nothing to do with Ronald Reagan.


AndrogynousAspie 3 years ago

Hi there. I just came across this page and figured I would chime in.

When I was born in the mid 70's, doctors didn't know much about intersex issues. You had to be a boy or girl, nothing in between. Doctors then and today still hacking at new-born's genitals to make them appear more male or female when it comes to intersexed children. I was born with Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, level 3. As a XY "male", I was a normal healthy skinny boy, but when I was 9/10, I started getting breasts. It's called Gynecomastia, or as some call them: bitch tits. But they are usually associated with fat boys/men. Not true with me. I have what's known as micro penis (think of your thumb), undescended testicles (born with them in my abdomen, not in the scrotum), virtually no chest or back hair, delayed puberty. I have always felt male AND female, but not 100% of one or the other. I am very androgynous mentally and physically. Androgynous to the point of changing my name and gender marker (legally) to female once I obtained a letter from my doctor with the intersex condition - I didn't need a sex change to legally change my namd and especially, gender marker.

I live mostly as a male, but I only wear womens clothes. Not frillly stuff i.e. heels, skirts, feminine tops, but very androgynous: i.e. jeans, dress slacks, womens pant suits and flats, womens shirts that could pass for male or female and of course: bras. I have to, I am a 38C/D - naturally, no implants. For the record, I got the shit kicked out of me while in elementary and high school.

Something psychologically in my mind makes me have to wear womens clothes, it's just natural. If I wear something male, I feel like a woman crossdressing wearing mens clothes. I'm so female looking and sounding, that I even worked as a female which was awesome. I call myself: the third gender. I not just effeminate, I look AND sound the part. It's actually hard convincing people I'm a guy at times. Hell, this bisexual female coworker and I were at a bar one time, drunk off our ass, and she thought I had implants until we went to the restroom and I whipped out a tit and let her feel.

Isn't life great? I'd rather be thought of as a female in society ANY day. Also, I'm married. For 17 years now. I think my wife doesn't like me dressing up (heels, skirts/dresses) because frankly, I'm prettier than her, and it makes her feel insecure to the point it bothers her. So like I said, I just dress androgynous.

Another aspect of our relationship is, she doesn't like it when people think we are a lesbian couple. It kinda bothers me a little also. It's a bitch at restaurants at times, because the wait-staff brings us separate checks, because they think we're "friends". Life is great. :)

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