What are your thoughts on boys showering with girls at school?

1. 69

   Aime Fposted 8 years ago

   Yeah... I'm not the one who took it off-topic. 
   
   "Freedom of religion within the boundaries set forth in the Bible" is an oxymoron.

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   1. 77

      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      All religion is based on those precepts.
      Except Sharia Law.
      ~ what do you know about sharia law that is so beneficial to the Human Spirit?

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2. 69

   Aime Fposted 8 years ago

   I don't think rules laid out by religion are beneficial at all, really, regardless of the religion.  I think there are basic moral 'rules' that we as human beings are quite capable of following without religious influence, and everything else (like rules regarding sexuality, gender roles, etc.) is just religious garbage.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions regarding those issues but not everyone should be required to live under laws governed by those opinions. 
   
   Christians have been trying to restrict and punish minorities for a good long time, too.

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   1. 77

      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Christians and those of all religions have a ways to go before they understand the Science of Religion. 
      Yes, there is a little understood science behind all religion.
      Those with faith, who are open to the Holy Spirit, will comprehend much of its truths directly.

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3. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   tatoos or unisex toilets/showers?
   whats it gonna be?

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4. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   Helpful tattoos for transgender persons who were mistakenly born a woman and insist on showering or peeing communally with men:
   
   "Please excuse the non-existence of my penis."
   Or  "imaginary penis here."
   Or "Opops, left it at home."
   Or "Please step away from ME. I am not really a female."
   
   
   Or we should just get used to it and look the other way.
   
   
   FINE

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5. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   Great Idea.

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6. 95

   SmartAndFunposted 8 years ago

   Don W, you keep stating that I do not approve of transgender people, or that I reject them. You are not reading my words carefully enough. What I reject is the idea that people can be medically or magically transformed into the opposite sex. A man cannot become a woman simply by stating that he is one, or that he feels like one, or by having plastic surgery. This is magical thinking.
   
   Men do not belong in women's showering and sleeping quarters. Allowing men into women's private spaces does impinge upon the rights of women and girls. You say it doesn't; I say it does. We will never agree.
   
   You say being forced to shower in front of a male does not affect women's or girls rights, and I say it does. I do not think a man's right to express himself by spending time inside a woman's bathroom should be put above the right of women not to have to shower or undress in front of a man. You have an opinion that favors men, and I have an opinion that favors women. We will never agree.
   
   Men who believe they are women have all the rights that all other men have. They may dress however they like and get whatever surgeries they want. But their feelings of being female do not change the fact that they are males. I stated all this in my earlier response. Blah blah blah. I hate repeating myself and I feel like a broken record at this point.
   
   Showering with women or lounging naked in a woman's sauna is not an unalienable right of men. Plenty of people no doubt would like to express themselves in illegal and inappropriate ways.  Expression of oneself and one's feelings must fall within the boundaries of the law.
   
   And yes, it supposedly works both ways in regard to women who believe they are men, but as I have already stated, when women petition to be allowed into men's spaces, courts typically rule against them and keep them out. The courts seem to only allow men their wish to go into women's spaces. Also, not many women are pushing this issue, for whatever reason. Perhaps they don't feel safe in men's rooms, or they do not want to insert themselves where they are not wanted, or they believe they would lose their case as other women have.
   
   A woman should not have to find herself showering with or undressing in front of a man. Sex-segregated bathrooms exist for a reason.

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   1. 83

      Don Wposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      It's not about whether biological males can be "magically transformed" into biological females. I don't know anyone who has suggested that. It's about recognizing that a person's biological sex is less relevant to their social relations, sense of self, and mental health than we once thought it to be; that a person's gender identity is equally (if not more) important to those things than the number of X and Y chromosomes they happen to have.
      
      And it's misleading to suggest the discrimination you are proposing is based on biological sex. In practice, even existing segregation of men and women's bathrooms is based on apparent sex, not biological. A person's biological sex can't be determined from appearance alone. It's based on internal and external sex organs; chromosomes and hormones. The only way to accurately determine biological sex is a full medical examination, chromosome and hormone analysis. 
      
      So in the case of segregation of the sexes, the criteria used in practice is appearance, not biology. It's not necessarily possible to determine if the person at the sink next to you is a transgender person or not. And it's not necessarily possible to determine what biological sex that person is. The reality is that transgender women who meet social expectations of what a woman is "supposed" to look like, are unlikely to receive any complaints when using a woman's bathroom. So what practical use is biological sex as a criteria in this context?
      
      If the real criteria being used is appearance, then biological sex becomes less relevant. What becomes more relevant is whether someone is authentically expressing their gender identity, as opposed to pretending for nefarious purposes. The latter has been addressed by the fact that information from places promoting transgender equality does not indicate that has been an issue
      
      As sex organs, chromosomes and gender identity develop independently, it's possible for one, two or all three of those things not to align. A person's sex organs could be one thing, their chromosomes another, their gender identity another. That's not a mental disorder, or a dysfunction, or someone pretending to be something else. It's someone who simply does not conform to what is typical. It's not better or worse, or right or wrong, it just is. Why should such people be discriminated against because of something they have absolutely no control over?
      
      You can see that biological sex is completely irrelevant to the boy in that video, because his sense of self is that of a boy. Calling him a girl and making him use the girls bathroom, is psychologically no different to calling any other 7 year old boy a girl and forcing him to use the girls bathroom. The psychological harm would be the same. I don't understand why anyone would choose to deliberately inflict such harm.

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      1. 77

         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         Its a mistake to be born at all, so what is the difference?   
         
         Life is a mistake for us humans who refuse to be guided by truth and reality.
         
         HAVE AT IT!

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7. 95

   SmartAndFunposted 8 years ago

   Here's a 50-something man named "Stephonknee" who identifies as a female -- a six-year-old girl, to be exact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbiAHnj … ata_player
   
   Stephonknee lives in Canada, where laws left the women's homeless shelter no choice but to allow him to move in. Stephonknee says he is female, so therefore, he magically is female. Luckily for Stephonknee, he no longer must live in the shelter, now that he met his new mommy and daddy on a fetish dating site. They "adopted" Stephonknee, and now he lives with them.
   
   Stephonknee (Steph-on-knee -- cute, huh?) does not plan on getting sexual reassignment surgery, because he needs his male parts to fool around with his "mommy" and "daddy." In this radio broadcast which tells us all about poor Stephonknee's plight, he talks about the naughty things he and his mommy and daddy do together. He says gets excited just talking about it.  http://www.theheartradio.org/episodes/howtobeaprincess
   (Warning: explicit content in a few spots. Why, oh why did the journalist even include this in their report?)
   
   Stephonknee loves being a little girl. He loves to have play-dates with his mommy and daddy's little granddaughter. She is tasked with being Stehpnknee's friend. Stephonknee calls it play therapy, but I doubt it is therapeutic for the granddaughter. It is therapeutic only for Stephonknee, but that's OK because Stephonknee is the person who counts -- what males want matters more than what females need, especially just some girl kid. Who cares what this is doing to her? She should not feel uncomfortable about being made to play with a 6'6" man in a little girl's pinafore -- that would be transphobic.
   
   Stephonknee has seven kids back in the U.S. He is mystified that the kids wish he would go back to being their regular old dad. Those darn kids are so transphobic. After years of bitterness and a restraining order to prevent Stephonknee from harming the kids' mother again, one of his kids tried to reach out and texted him on Father's Day. Stephonknee became angry and texted back that he was going to kill himself. Even his support network from church was put out with his narcissistic behavior at that point. But little Steph is only six years old, so I guess we shouldn't have expected a mature reply.
   http://www.thetransgenderproject.com/#! … ee-wolscht (at the linked page, click on "Paul Wears Dresses."
   
   I wonder if those bigots down at the elementary school will bar Stephonknee from enrolling in first grade? I bet they will. They want to deny him is unalienable right to express himself as the true, authentic self that he feels he really is.
   
   

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8. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   If a person is legitimately born with the wrong gender parts / wiring, its all a matter of personal belief. I suppose we should believe a man if he says he should have been born female. In some Indian tribes, they would put a squaw dress on an effeminate man and give (him)/her a husband.
   
   It is possible that mistakes are made in the womb, or even that a soul can change its mind once born.
   
   But, if a man says he is eternally six … well, that is purely make-believe.
   It is not a true belief. It is something else ... something like mental illness, I would say.
   
   Whoever is allowing the child to interact with that sevely deluded man, is allowing child abuse.
   It needs to be stopped. And those three adults should be treated as though they were mentally ill, which they are.
   
   To what extent is mental illness and evil related, I wonder?
   
   PS I will not pollute my mind further by going to the links.
   What is revealed in this post is creepy enough.

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9. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   <"The only way to accurately determine biological sex is a full medical examination, chromosome and hormone analysis ... As sex organs, chromosomes and gender identity develop independently, it's possible for one, two or all three of those things not to align…>
   
   Any medical reports as an example?

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10. 0

    calculus-geometryposted 8 years ago

    Transwomen don't all think alike and there are many who agree with SmartAndFun.  Their views are not currently fashionable, but they should be heard. Thiis is a great article that came out today, talks about transwomen who reject the idea of gendered brains and such.
    
    http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ … ement.html

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    1. 77

       Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       "Yet she (a trans woman named Helen Highwater) has come to reject the idea that she is truly female
       
                                               or that she ever will be. !
       
       Though “trans women are women” has become a trans rights rallying cry, Highwater writes, it primes trans women for
       
       failure,
       disappointment,
       and cognitive dissonance.
       
       She, (Highwater) calls it a 'vicious lie.' "

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    2. 83

       Don Wposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Just goes to show that transgender people have diversity of thought, feelings and opinions just like anyone else. I don't find that surprising. Only reinforces the point that transgender people are first and foremost people, who just happen to be transgender.
       
       The argument outlined in the article is the same one that has been discussed here: the idea that biological sex is a more important consideration than gender identity. I think that view is outmoded and misleading.
       
       It's outmoded because it doesn't take into account current thinking in biology, endocrinology, psychology etc; and it's misleading because it presents the idea that biological sex is binary. We know that's not the case. There is male and female, and varying degrees of biologically male/female in between, i.e. people who literally have different combinations of male and female biology who have been lumped together into the category of "intersex". Granted those who fit into this category represent a minority of people, but they exist and they blow up the notion that 1) biological sex is binary, and 2) that biological sex is useful as a criteria for anything other than scientific categorization.
       
       Focusing on biological sex is also misleading because we never actually use biological sex in the way that's being presented. When biological sex is used as a criteria in a social context, we in are in fact only using the appearance of biological sex, not someone's actual biological sex, as that would require a level of intrusive examination that is typically not possible within a social context. So appearance is the criteria we use to determine male and female in social settings, not biology.

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    3. 95

       SmartAndFunposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks for the link, Calculus-Geometry. It is nice to know that at least some transgender people are coming around and rejecting the magical thinking of "a man announcing he is a woman = that man really and truly is a woman." In fact, the transgender person in the article is even pointing to insisting-upon-magical-thinking-being-real as a cause of possible psychological harm to transgendered people. I agree. Believing in such nonsense not only harms women and girls in general when the public at large falls for it, but also harms individual transgendered people who are enabled/pushed/coddled into believing these false statements. It sets them up for failure and disappointment.
       
       As far as Don W's assessment of biology vs. appearance, I will go for that. If these guys actually do pass as women, I am none the wiser. However, transgender men very often do not pass as women and in fact are obviously male. If I find a male in the ladies gym locker room or showers, I should be able to do something about it, i.e., call security to have him removed. However, these laws give men a legal right to be the ladies room no matter what their appearance. As long as a man simply declares that he is transgender, it is OK for him to, while completely naked, lounge spread eagle (with intact male genitalia) in the sauna or take a naked stroll through the women's locker room. In these sorts of instances, the person's appearance is unquestionably male, but as the young girls on the swim team learned, the gym's hands were tied and one man was allowed to stay in the ladies locker room, and dictate that the entire group of minor girls must leave.

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11. 77

    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    "Earlier this year, Highwater attended a talk by Bindel about radical feminists who have been banned from public speaking due to accusations of transphobia. There she met one of the organizers, the provocative trans writer Miranda Yardley, who likewise rejects the ethos of the contemporary trans movement. Transitioning, Yardley tells me, improved her life immeasurably. It eliminated the gender dysphoria—the strong desire “to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one’s sex characteristics,” in the words of the DSM-5—that once plagued her. But it didn’t, she says, make her female. “I’m male, I own it,” she tells me. Soon, Yardley and Highwater began dating.
    
    “We identify as a gay male couple,” Yardley says.
    “We don’t identify as lesbians.”

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    1. 53

       Ashumsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       One person's experience does not apply to all. Personal experience is just that, personal. To discount someone else's doesn't make them in the wrong, it makes you in the wrong by unwilling to try and understand as a rational being, and for what? Out of illogical fear? By that logic everyone is an enemy, because everyone is different with a unique set of experiences. Having a penis doesn't make me like the next guy simply because I have one, same with a vagina. To put a group of people ahead of others based on some minor common trait is blatant discrimination born from fear & hatred.You said science has a long way to go in understanding Christianity/religion and those with faith understand it. I don't think so, not people who make such comments, because those people don't seem to realize how religion was used to twist their hearts when Christianity began literally waging a bloody war on anyone who was different during the Roman era. As it spread so did hatred, it justified the enslavement of blacks, the rape and stoning of women under certain conditions, burning of "witches", and the discrimination & murder of gays & trans, and all because they were different in some way. Jesus was "The Prince of PEACE", discrimination, no matter how you wanna justify it, is failing to live up to his name & ideals. It is however supporting The Roman Christan version of Sharia Law. So pick one, you can't have both, but know, heaven has no room for hatred if you call yourself a faithful Christian, the bible & Jesus made that abundantly clear. If you hate & discriminate simply because you can, then that just makes you a horrible person.

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       1. 77

          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Should transsexuals be allowed to shower in …
            never mind.

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          1. 53

             Ashumsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

             Didn't miss the question, was responding your to statements lol, nice try at deflection. Shame. Anyway, asking such a question means people are failing to understand the repercussions...
             So, say you want to keep out other women based on a single physical characteristic(not that it's any of your business anyway, pervert). Yet you refuse to take into account FtM trans people, who often look like men and act like men, and you want them to shower with you? The question is kinda silly & irrational cause if you want to discriminate then you're stuck with masculine people in women's restrooms, the very thing that is supposedly "terrifying". If you live and let live, then you get other women who'd rather just be left the heck alone. Which is worse?

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             1. 77

                Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                ~ "So, say you want to keep out other women based on a single physical characteristic
                (not that it's any of your business anyway, pervert.")
                
                Pervert = the casual observer?
                
                ~"Yet you refuse to take into account FtM trans people, who often look like men and act like men, and you want them to shower with you?"
                
                Thats actually fine.
                
                ~"The question is kinda silly & irrational cause if you want to discriminate then you're stuck with masculine people in women's restrooms, the very thing that is supposedly 'terrifying'."
                
                Not at all.
                
                If you live and let live, then you get other "women" who'd rather just be left the heck alone.
                Which is worse?"
                
                Hopefully, you are right.
                
                But, anyway, in this day and age, I would imagine we just accept whatever.
                I mean what, in the end, is the big deal ?
                As you say.
                

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                   Ashumsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                   Eyes up here. *points at my eyes* No excuses lol. If it's considered rude when men to do it to women, then it's probably not ok for anyone else, esp to comment on it...
                   
                   So basically it's a penis that is terrifying to people? (Refer to above statement) Last I checked they're not tentacle monsters XD
                   
                   I would hope so. I would hope we'd all protect each other from any kind of predator no matter how we look.

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12. 77

    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    predator!!!:  Such as the tentacle monsters XD !?  Ha ha! 
    No offense, guys n gals! 
    
    We're all one! 
    … and its okay to look!
    
    Can we please just go and enjoy our day now?

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13. 95

    SmartAndFunposted 8 years ago

    
    
    OK women and girls, sadly, it seems it is time to hang up your cleats and put away your hockey sticks. Go back to your Barbies and baking cupcakes.
    
    The IOC has ruled that men may compete as women in the Olympics -- no surgery or even estrogen therapy needed. As long as a man makes a declaration that he feels like a woman and keeps his testosterone level at less than 10 nmol/L for the 12 months leading up to the games, as well as throughout the games, he may compete as a woman in women's Olympic sporting events.
    
    Men may achieve the 10 nmol/L testosterone level by taking androgen blockers; taking estrogen is not necessary to hit this level, nor does the IOC require men who are supposedly women to take estrogen in order to compete as women. 10 nmol/L testosterone for a man is considered on the low end of NORMAL for adult males (normal range for males is considered 9-38). Women's normal testosterone range is .52-2.4.
    
    While a man may compete as a woman as long as his testosterone level does not get as high as 10 nmol/L, a woman also may not participate as a woman if her testosterone level gets as high as 10. However, keep in mind that the upper normal range for a woman is 2.4. To reach higher levels such as 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, a woman would have to be injecting testosterone, which is considered doping. She would be disqualified.
    
    Make way for the men who want to dominate women's sports! Enjoy those medals, fellas!

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