10 Questions for Christians

Source

Understanding

As an Atheist married to a Christian I often have moments of thought where I wonder what you Christians are thinking. I'm fortunate to have a good husband who doesn't mind my constant questions that many Christians would be offended by. However I often wonder if his answers are the common answers among Christians. I truly do not understand how people believe in a God. Understanding isn't a requirement, but it does make living with a Christian easier. Even more than that, if the majority of my local population believes something, it would be nice to some how figure out what is going on in their minds. Atheist often say the belief in a God is like believing in Santa. Some Christians are offended by the comparison, but it strikes close to reality. Christians believe in something they can not see, hear, nor physically feel. It's all about belief and faith. I would love to understand how so many have faith in something they can not do any of those things with.

Source

Questions

  1. Why can't God control everything? If he can create an entire world, I don't understand why he can't control it. Could he not make a way to help us or control certain things with out some how messing up all our other freedoms? So can he even control himself?
  2. If God is our father why does he allow "free will" to harm his children? Many people are born into horrible lives before they ever have a chance to make their own decisions. These children are abused or neglected and God does nothing. I understand letting adults be effected by "free will" but I do not understand why God doesn't step in when it comes to children. Should all children not be given the opportunity to start out life with positives?
  3. How can God be loving if he allows number 2? If I allow someone to rape or beat my child I am a horrible person and must not love my child. However if God allows it to happen he is somehow loving?!?! Wouldn't he have provided himself a foolproof way of loving us without some how ruining something else if he was truly loving?
  4. The explanation offered by many Christians for child abuse and other bad things is that somehow God is teaching us something or that it is God's plan to make us into a good person. My question here is there has to be a better way to teach a child right? If my child needs to learn manners I don't beat it into him. Why not find a nicer approach to life lessons?
  5. How do you believe in something that their is no evidence it even exists?The thing I hear Christians saying is that "We can't see air but we know it's there". True, but it has also been proven the to be there and proven to be the thing that keeps us alive. All "Miracles" can be explained with rational thoughts. So how do you justify belief in something that has never been shown to even be real?
  6. How do you explain the multiple impossible things in the bible? I mean everyone knows it is impossible for a dead person to come back to life. Have you ever witnessed a walking dead person? How is Jesus any different than any other story about zombies?
  7. Why do you think your God is the only right one? As an atheist I struggle with this one. If I am wrong and there is a God, How do we know if there is just one God, multiple Gods, which one is the right one? I mean there have been Gods of sorts since pretty much forever. How do Christians justify the fact they pick this one God to worship?
  8. Natural disasters are another thing. Do you think this is God's way of controlling the planet's population or just another thing God chooses to do to his people out of spite? I mean killing thousands of people in a tsunami just doesn't sound like something a loving being would do.
  9. Birth Defects and Child illness. This is one I struggle with very much. With all the children that are born with defects or end up with childhood cancer how do you fit that in with your faith in God? Seems to me that this is something that many say is used to make stronger people. Losing a child builds something in a person so that they can help another parent facing the same problem. But let's be real, if it never happened to begin with then no one would need to be stronger in that way. Why not just keep it from happening?
  10. This is my last one because this is the one that I personally have fought with. At the end of the day religion is simply faith with no answers. There is no questioning God. Things happen in his time and way and we are to simply believe and worship. How do you worship someone that lets all of the above happen? How do Christians find faith in God when their child dies, their husband is hit by a drunk driver, their wife has breast cancer? I just don't understand how anyone would choose to love, worship, and believe in something that allows all of this pain and sadness with no explanation. I look at a disabled child and I can't see a real God allowing that to happen and if he did I can't see wanting to worship him.

Do you ever doubt your own faith?

  • Yes
  • No
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End of the Day

At the end of the day I just don't understand the "all powerful, create everything" God allowing all the negative of the world. We create a lot of that negative and if there really was a God he would protect our world. I have no wish to change Christians or down you for your beliefs, but I will never understand them even though I do my best to. Answering my questions with parts of the bible also make it hard for me to believe, because the bible is a book written by men. Can someone just explain to me why the Christian God supposedly sent Jesus Christ here, yet here we sit 2000 years later and he has sent no one here for this set of people?!? It would seem that times are considerably different now and it would make sense to send some "proof" for us.

What religion are you?

  • Christian
  • Jewish
  • Muslim
  • Other
  • None
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UPDATE

When I wrote this hub article I was at a moment in my life where I needed to get out things that had weighed heavy on me for a while. Where I am from Christianity is almost the only religion, people are in your face about it, you can't avoid it, and quite honestly I was tired of people in some groups I was part of who constantly said things like "God has a plan for you" and "God has reasons beyond what we see"

It is out of my system now, and while I will always wonder how people manage to believe these things I am to a point of peace where I can just ignore the comments made. Please understand I don't mean to sound rude when I say this but I really don't care what anyone chooses to believe, so long as they don't expect me to.

With that said, if you have any insight to any of the questions I would still like to hear it. I appreciate a different view than my own sometimes!

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Comments 380 comments

whittwrites profile image

whittwrites 4 years ago from the Philly area

As a Christian I don't have all the answers for you but one thing I believe is God is in control and we are his children. I also believe as a parent there comes a point when your children are left to go into the world and live their lives. They make their own mistakes which cannot be blamed on the parents. It is the same with us,as God's children we will make mistakes, but just like a loving parent God is there to comfort us. I do not truly know the answer for your last one but I do know as a person who was born with a couple facial defects I have had to endure a lot. I don't blame my defects on God or blame Him because I am not perfect, no through my defects I have learned to love others. I also believe their is a purpose for everything, even me sitting here typing this, what that purpose is I don't know. If you would like to discuss this topic please let me know.


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

Really a good hub peeples - tough questions you have posted. I share with you those very things, and more. It is so easy to be a Christian when you can brush them all off with "God works in mysterious ways" or " I don't have any answers, but I have faith and God will look out for me." I too do not wish to belittle Christians - they have every right to follow their superstitious beliefs -its just not the real world.

There once was a TV program "Actor's Studio" where they had a famous actor as a guest each week. The host always asked them two questions. What is your favorite cuss word, and presuming there is a God what would you say to him when you reached the pearly gates - Robert DiNiro had the best answer - he said "God, youv'e got a lot of explaining to do."

I too have pondered those questions you posted during my journey from being brout up a Catholic to non-believer - I finally quit pondering because once you understand and accept that there are no answers, that the natural world is what it is, and bad things happen to some people, and good things happen to some people, and that there is no divine power in charge of everything it is easier to deal with what you have to deal with. Have faith in yourself - you had a tough time and you survived it - YOU survived - have faith in YOU!


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Whittwrites I respect your views but there are some things that happen in this world that should have no reason or purpose. I'm glad that you found something to have comfort in. Thank you for taking time to read this hub.

RbJ Having faith in me is all I have. Somehow (though not good for me I am sure) I seek some sort of justice or understanding of my past. Maybe if courts would have done their job I would not feel this need but I do. I know that I will never believe in God but yet I continue on this, what feels like, never ending journey for justification. I wish I would stop making it so hard on myself. Maybe with age I will find peace in my past. Thank you for visiting!


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

There is no "justification" - things happen, events occur, and our life's journey continue - I place my faith in my wife, my children, grandchildren and yes even great grandchildren, my brothers and sister, and most importantly - ME.

You won't find "Justification" for the bad things that have happened to you. You may find reasons, like bad people doing bad things. To justify those things would mean they were okay, they were justified - that is not the case.


Cristale profile image

Cristale 4 years ago from Florida

Wow! Those are a lot of questions to ask a Christian. Do you think that people ask you a lot about you being atheist? This is a hot topic here on Hub Pages! I say to each his or her own, as long as they are not hurting themselves or others. We as humans will never agree 100% on any thing. That's why it's diverse!


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Cristale, actually yes many of the Christians I know do ask me about my atheism. I agree to each their own, however being married to a Christian and the life I was provided leave me wanting to understand. At least I choose not to question in a hateful manner like some. Thank you for your comment.

RBJ, thank you for somewhat understanding my screwed up thought process!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

peeples, this is one excellent Hub. Thank you for expressing your obviously well-thought-out questions.

My own thoughts on why individuals would want to express a belief in such a god are these: Having a belief can make you feel "nice." Expressing that belief can make you feel even "nicer." Having expressed that belief and finding others who agree with you can make you feel "over the moon!"

Being confronted by someone who disbelieves you, who can confront your "nice" feelings, can bring up an instinctive fight-feeling. This (maybe, I am no expert) can trigger an adrenalin response, probably with other hormones or enzymes working to make your body feel excited and energised.

Am I being too rational?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Is there such a thing as too rational? My husband has stated many times that his belief makes him feel whole. In other words "nice". You are quite logical! Thank you Jonny for stopping by!


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

I think your thought process is just fine - in fact, more than just fine.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Thank you both.... I have just half a nip of Habana Club left in the bottle, that might make me feel a bit nicer!

Btw, before you get any ideas that my comments depend on the bottle, this 1/4-bottle has lasted since my return from the Caribbean in April!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

I hasten to add here, because it's important in a divide world: it does not matter whether there is a god in reality; whether the christian god is paramount; whether a Hindu person's understanding of divine things are "right" or "wrong." For the person, persons or community that finds some kind of encouragement or solace from believing what they want, that is their free choice; provided they allow me my freedom to believe what I choose.

A community which is steeped in the culture and belief of paganism, I totally respect. Why should I or anyone else try to force them into any other way of thinking? One way is as good as the other.

All of my theorizing and logic does not alter this. IMHO.


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Value of thought is not only to be measured by your individualistic feelings, my friends!

Good suggestions, creative ideas and logical understanding are largely based on the degree of real world, rational thought contained in them.

Religious types who imagine that praying to a non-existing entity can have ANY result, other than creating wishful hope and a wast of time, are simply irrational ... is it not obvious by now to most of us who question the value of religion, the more irrational people there are in a given society or nation, the more mental capacity is being wasted on potentially valuable rational, creative thought? Add this up and you will see the HUGE economic implication this creates ... it does make a difference what you and the people next door can produce in their minds ... do they only feed on pro sports and religion or can they formulate some critical ideas and make a hub page which may start a cultural revolution in a country on the edge of economic colaps?

It's not the military but an educated, intellectually advanced population which is the best economic power base in any country - religiosity only stands in the way of seeing the facts of reality as clearly as can be ... if you ask me for my input ... :)


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Questioning is a good thing if you are open to the answers. Moses questioned God as did all the great men and women of faith. Ask God every question, seek the answers, He will respond.

God loves us and gave us free will. Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. The miracles in the Bible are occurring today in 2012. I have been blessed to witness miracles of many varieties including a stone dead women raised from the dead and is still worshipping the Lord today.

Thank you for this HUB.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Sir, if you were that good and prominent in commerce, which god do you worship?

Commerce is essential to the provision of goods and services to the population. Yet the "American Way of Commerce" is by it's very nature extremely competitive.

If one were to measure honorable business on a scale of 10, where One is hardly honest and moral at all, to Ten where everything is on an absolutely fair, honest, above-board level of dealings, where would you place YOUR score?

Go into your heart, now. Give US an honest answer. Remember what your Jesus said about the rich man getting into heaven?

I am suggesting that christianity, and the businessman's or businesswoman's standing in the community, are very symbiotic.

I am not christian. In that regard, I am honest.

Yet I do care very much for my fellow human, and the effect I have, albeit nowhere near perfect, on my neighbour.

I do not need to be a christian in order to conduct my life in this way.

Also, I do not need to put up a front of being "good," or cry to a theoretical god for forgiveness.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

I must add, having re-read my previous post, that I am not directing my question at FSlovenec personally or any other individual, personally. My choice of wording and sentence construct might have conveyed that impression. Of course I would not mean it that way.

I am trying to show that just because a person calls him/her self christian, does not put him/her above the rest of the population.

One can easily get the impression that religion is a front, a scape-goat, to hide less-than-forthright dealings. It's that impression, the perception, that tends to convince us something is amiss.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

the answer to question 1 and 3 is that we arent little plastic dolls that god plays with and puts in a dolly house we are human beings and need to prove why we deserve to live when we have been given life out of loving kindness (its not like we did anything to deserve the gift of life) and then when we have been given this gift we rebel against god and his commandments...if you have read the bible you would know that we arent exactly in god's good books right now that's why we need to use an affiliate in prayer, jesus.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

But Danny, children are unable to prove why they deserve it. So while your statement makes it easy to understand why a God wouldn't step in when it comes to adults, but it doesn't make it understandable for why he doesn't step in when it comes to children or how anyone could believe he loves children when he doesn't keep them safe from those that rebel. Thank you for your comment!

Thank you all for commenting. Jonny I understand what you are saying. As always I enjoy your comments!


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

I was taught at a young age that things need to be seen in order to believed... That is how I manage my relationship with god... Which is a lot easier than for those who do choose to believe in god... For it is a choice, not a requirement... God being the feared mystery used to gain a form a morality, and civility... "If you don't behave?, God is going to come down on your butt and you can not say that we didn't warn you"... I have always challenged authority when authority makes no sense... It is important for us to have people who will actually do that..


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

By the way.. Very nice article peeples!!!... Has anyone actually read the Bible, or the Qu'ran ?... These are very frightening books with many frightening stories within them... All with the tone of do this, or else... or See what happens when you misbehave?... Again, fear mongering in order to force morality, and civility... Like we couldn't figure those things out without the fear mongering rhetoric found in religious verse... No room for logic, or reasonable rationale, when it comes to questioning religions... Because we just get defensive hocus pocus reasoning for our answers when we do question it logically, and reasonably.. It is always 'Gods Will' for the senseless answer to any questions of god... 'Gods Will', the most irrational cop out excuse of all excuses.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

fair point and a very emotionally strung one too which is hard to answer without sounding cold hearted i can only say that the human race as a whole is on shaky ground which includes the not fully developed ones (terrible way to describe a child i know) but the general objective of god is to remove the wicked people and keep the good ones.....as an atheist im sure you will love this but the first group of wicked people he turns on are the religions of the world (including christianity) especially catholocism which has slandered his name for years by 1: not even using his name 2: teaching horrible doctrines such as hellfire and 3: burnt people alive for even daring to question what they are being taught.

its unfortunate that anyone has to die of course but it has got to a point where sin is in our genetic makeup now and its all our fault so we need to either accept that and have faith or come up with ideas so as not to believe in god either way when we reach 80 we are as good as dead anyway


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

Yet we keep hearing from christians who just can not seem to recognize that there are other religions out there that treat and refer to their gods in a completely different manner.

But once a christian, or a muslim?... All those other religions do not matter, and the fanatics will not even recognize their existence.

1.5 billion muslims think they have the best team,

1.5 billion hindus think they have the best team,

1.5 billion christians think they have the best team,

1.5 billion buddhists think they have the best team.

But once associated with a team?

All other teams are meaningless, or simply do not exist.

They certainly are not considered.

No, when I question people about the populous of other religions out there?

They ussually go very silent.

What's up with that ?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Richard Dawkins makes a good point, just because you have the title of Christian doesn't make you one, I think you will find that Christians are actually a minority. The 1.5 billion of so called Christians consist of 42000 denominations all believing in different things and I imagine the same is true for the other religious groups too.


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

So not only are they unable to explain their need to believe in a logical, reasonable, sensible fashion???... They can not even agree on their own philosophies that drive their beleifs... Religion and Credibility do not mix well because of this.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

It's the same in any organisation for example a lot of evolutionists wouldn't be able to explain themselves in a reasonable logical way but there are the individuals in evolution and within religion that can, it's important to separate god from religion and when you do that things start to make sense


dimplechic 4 years ago

I am a Christian, and I believe that God uses hardships to shape our lives and also to bring us closer to him. It says in the bible, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. ” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Regarding #10 I think of an example Sharon Jaynes wrote about in a book I'm reading. A woman had a retarded child, who still to the day of adulthood could not care for himself, or hardly comprehend her when she spoke to him. She looked him in the eyes and said "I love you, I wish you could understand that" she waited and hoped for a response but he just stared blankly right passed her. The woman testified that she heard God speak to her that day telling her that even though she looks right through Him, and even though she doesn't feel worthy of God's unconditional love, he still Loves her, because she is his child.

God uses hardships to humble us, to teach us life lessons, and to bring us closer to him. Without God how do you cope with your sufferings in a positive way. Where do you find hope and healing.

Romans 5:3-5 --3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

I think there are many Christians out there who struggle with some of those same questions, but even though sometimes we don't fully understand God's plan, we trust in Him and he gives us hope.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

dimplechic , I respect our understandings and feelings. I cannot, nor should I try to, deprive you of that way of thinking.

However, for me, all those expressions you use and lift from texts in the bible are nothing more than analogies and metaphors used by Paul whoever he was, to explain his assessment of the situation in that day, at that time.

If such metaphor helps you in your life today, fair enough. I am free to use and interpret those texts as and when I see fit. It is not for me to push my understandings of them onto you or anyone else.


Kathleen Cochran profile image

Kathleen Cochran 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

We're not supposed to self-promote, but in this case, it might be the easiest way to answer one of your questions - Number 7. Is There One Way To God - Kathleen Cochran

Your other questions I don't have answers for. Best of luck in your search for truth.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

A further thought (s) which I have been getting to over the past few days: Having a "higher authority" in one's life can be a very stabilizing factor.

Having a loyalty; motivation to do something better; reducing the tendency to boast; putting me in my place; being able to see a bigger, higher purpose --- all these come with accepting some one else above me and my objectives. I am much more likely to put my effort into excellence if it is done for someone else.

I believe Queen Elizabeth is one example of this. Her objective, ever since her ascension to the Throne 60 years ago, has been one of service. Hers is the highest office in the Nation of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Yet she is apparently devout in her faith and is subject to that Higher Authority.

I can see this, even though I don't worship the christian idea of a god.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

jonny, what you said remids me more of my relationship with my husband and children than of a faith. But yet it is almost the same thing. Knowing that the things I do in life are being done for the purpose of making my my family happy, I strive harder to make the right decisions. They are my motivation and while it would make some feminist cringe I do somewhat see them as above my own objectives. So I agree in a sense having a higher authority can be almost soothing in life. However I much prefer that authority to be my family.


Highvoltagewriter profile image

Highvoltagewriter 4 years ago from Savannah GA.

So you are saying that you buy into the concept that every thing is random? That life has no purpose except the meaning that each person brings to it? That there is no force behind the world evolving? Also, the events that are happening in the world at this time is the direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy. We Christians do not have all the answers, but nether do science. Some believe that man will some day have all the answers, but what I see is de-evolution!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

I accept your proposition that things are not so random in this world. Who knows? Can any one of us point to a particular design or designer, a creator, a god, spirit, whatever, and say YES, THAT is the cause? That is fact? You christians do not have all the answers (well, SOME christians do, pardon my saying so!), nor do atheists, or hindus or buddhists, for that matter. You might chose to believe you know.

Science, at least truly pursued and honest scientific endeavour, makes a point of never being 100% certain and closed off. There is always some room for doubt and the need for further enquiry.

Don't you think?


Highvoltagewriter profile image

Highvoltagewriter 4 years ago from Savannah GA.

However, we live in age that the "theories" of evolution is presented as fact. I wrote a hub on this subject that you can find here.... http://hubpages.com/education/Are-We-Being-Blinded...

More and more evolutionist are trying to treat there beloved theories as fact. I feel that I have a relation with the creator and anyone can have that same relationship! That is my story and I am sticking to it!


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

@ Highvoltagewriter - It's quite clear from the way you present your story, you are either out of your mind, delusional or quite poorly educated in any of the basic natural sciences. This is also reflected in your lack of any clear understanding of such natural processes which must have existed at the time of the Big Bang, at this moment of cosmic evolution, or any time in between.

It's abundantly obvious that nature functions quite well without the help of such gods as you have created for your self in your own irrational mind. No matter how limited scientific discovery maybe, it's still the best information we have of how nature does things and how reality works ... and religionoids who say that science is just another religion obviously can't seam to think for themselves yet!

Franto in Toronto


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Highvoltagewriter I have started to read the Hub which you highlighted in your post, but it is so, so involved and convoluted, so full of your own opinion(s) that I found it extremely heavy reading.... and hopped out of it pretty quick!

Another of your Hubs, about your comparison of Buddhism and Christianity, also had lots of glaring misconceptions in it. It's like when you make a criticism about something or other, it is like you are looking at yourself in the mirror and not recognising yourself.

You wrote above: "More and more evolutionist are trying to treat there beloved theories as fact. I feel that I have a relation with the creator and anyone can have that same relationship! That is my story and I am sticking to it!"

Ok, so you have such a deep understanding of everyone's personal beliefs and accepted notions, that you can judge us not able to have that "relationship with the creator?"

You are entitled to have come through your personal journey and arrive at the conclusion you HAVE such a relationship. Your choice, your right, no question about that, and fully respected.

This next bit is also your choice: " That is my story and I am sticking to it!" And will you ever have the inner freedom to allow yourself to change that view? Again, your choice!

For me, I also have total freedom of choice. Do you allow me that? (If ever I needed your permission!)

I choose to accept that The Christ and the Buddha are the one and the same message.... one of Unity, Oneness, Inner and Outer, the Energy or Divine Consciousness inherent in all of Finite Creation. Yet, again, I am free to change this opinion if I see fit.

My opinions and understandings are fully plastic and flexible. I am open to Infinite Possibilities, because I can conceive of no god that is restricted. He, She, It, are all to do with human perception. Inherently restricted. Good and Bad are also human perceptions. An omnipotent God could by definition have no such restrictions.

So..... I am free! No fears of what happens to me or my body after my death. There will be nothing. I can open my eyes and ears to any and every wonderful thing that comes before me, enjoy it, try to do the right thing by the world and my neighbour. Make mistakes and (hopefully) learn by them. Share my self and my gifts with others. Explore scientific theories. Accept or reject whatever I choose.

All of this is my right. But rights carry responsibilities.

THEREFORE, "Highvoltagewriter," the world is big enough for you and me to live side by side, even if we don't see eye to eye. But only if you can be gracious towards me and my understandings, as I am towards you and yours.


Paul K Francis profile image

Paul K Francis 4 years ago from east coast,USA

God is part of my life experience. There is no need to try to understand this, just follow your own heart. I do not think that God makes things happen or lets them happen. Things happen, including terrible things. What I think I do know is that we should sometimes let go of the -ists, -isms and -ians and move forward as a species in order to possibly reduce the negatives of the world. Have a wonderful day.


David Ramses 4 years ago

I like your hubs. I find it interesting to see other people's viewpoints. I always think its funny when people claim to be athiest. The very claim is hilarious. By saying "I am an atheist", you are actually saying "there is a God and I am not going to believe in Him." lol all of your questions reveal some very interesting truths.(1) you believe in God and you are angry with Him. For someone who doesn't believe, you put a lot of effort into blaming Him for the things you suffered in the past. (2) you have formed your opinions about God based on other people's opinions. You should consider reading the bible to have your questions answered. All the answers are in there, written specifically, not metaphorically like most people will tell you. (3) you have not realized the pointless, never ending circle of seeking answers you are in. You reject what works for others, you admit your own thought processes don't free you from your pain, and so you try to rethink it with the same thought processes. The only thing that will free you from it is outside of your own mind. Here is a question.....how can you be so convinced there is no God when it has never been disproven? How do you know God works the way you claim He has failed to work in? What makes you think God fits into your categories and has therefore failed to be God? From an educated Christian viewpoint I will tell you that things are not as simple as you reason them. The reality of God, Creation, the Fall, the War, human suffering, free will, and salvation is much more complex and diabolical than your questions indicate. I will say two things to directly answer you. (1) god gives us free will because He wants companions not robots or cattle, even though free will is the very thing that prevents His plans for our lives and hurts innocent people(2) and God has placed a believer in your life because He is calling you to seek Him, which you are doing without realizing it. If a person truly doesn't believe there is a God they give it no mind. If you don't believe there are purple people eaters do you spend all your time contemplating their personality and intentions? Do you spend your life seeking them by trying to disprove what you "don't believe in"? If you don't believe it, what satisfaction do you get out of disproving what you already don't believe? I think you do believe and I think that is great. All the answers you seek are in the Bible. They are very specific. The interpretations you hear from others won't do. You need Gods interpretation to you. As you know, I have shared in similar situations. I have the scars to show for it and I once had all the same questions. I don't believe in fairy tales, and that's what I thought God was until I finally decided to go find out for myself. It's no fairy tale and God can move in your life in powerful ways and make your past a thing of the past, finally. Also, He can make your past a help to others in a better way than constantly reliving it and encouraging people to have no hope, no belief, and no way out of the never ending circle of misery. God bless you. Remember, God is not Santa Clause.


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Santa comes once a year ... that god you want to be blessed by hasn't been around for a while to bless anything, least of which the US or he may have notice the large number of unemployed, the huge national dept ... and the lousy economy ... and done something for all the delusional ones who had to print it right on the almighty dollar - in god we trust?!

What a joke ... it would be really funny if it weren't such a sad case of widespread mental disorder and god delusion!

Franto in Toronto


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David Ramses, what arrogant nonsense you write! I am atheist in my understanding. Please don't call me "an" atheist.

Your numbers 1 and 2 and 3, etc. above, do not in any way apply to me.

No "god" such as you believe in has ever been proven to exist!

Your claim that it is all so much more complex than we realise is also nonsense.

Simple: I DO NOT ACCEPT THAT SUCH A GOD EXISTS. Simple. Get it?

You are entitled to your belief (s). You can pray about me until the cows and pigs fly home to roost. Waste of time, even though you mean well. You are deluding yourself.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I could probably make a whole Hub dedicated to that response but I will do my best to address it here. I do not blame a God for my past, I blame a lack of God for my past. I will be quick to admit that I wish the whole God thing was real and that somehow my thought process is flawed. It would be nice at the end of the day to know there was something guiding this screwed up world in the right direction. As for how I formed my opinions on God, it's kind of hard to form those from someone else's ideas when I was just a child when they began. As for what you call a pointless, never ending circle of seeking answers I call it a very imposrtant never ending circle. I am quite aware that the answers I need I will never get, but the process is part of the healing. My questions are not some attempt to fix my own problems but more of a thought process put in writing. NOTHING will ever free me from the pain 100%. I will live with it until I die or become too old to remember. No belief in God would fix that either. My pain doesn't get in the way of my life and that is all that is important. As for your question, "how can you be so convinced there is no God when it has never been disproven?" Simple, I will believe the day he speaks to me. The day "God" decides to step out and show me he is really there I will believe he is there. Until then I am comfortable in my thought process because it is mine.

As for your question "If you don't believe it, what satisfaction do you get out of disproving what you already don't believe?" These hubs give me closure. As a teen in foster care all I ever heard from therapist, caseworkers, and foster parents was that all of what happened to me was part of "God's plan". Do you know how sick it made me at 15 thinking how screwed up any God would be for thinking that part of my childhood should be part of some plan?!?!

Just so you know I take your last statement as an insult. I do not encourage other's to have no hope. If you have read any of my non religious Hubs you would know that I do my best to inform people about foster care, becoming foster parents, and overcoming abuse. In real life I work with children who have been through what I have and help judges make informed decisions about where to place those children. See, you people on here only know one part of me. My past may not be healed but I am far from a miserable person. Considering my life I am quite the opposite. Just because I don't pretend it never happened doesn't make me miserable.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

I warm to your honesty, strength and willingness to share your self with us, Peeples. Thanks for a great Hub.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David Ramses, having read one of your Hubs, about Paganism, I can see you have travelled a very hard and rocky road through life. That you have moved strongly into christianity is quite understandable, and fine for you. I am not trying to dislodge your faith or anything.

However, all those adventures into different religions and religious practices, regardless of your feelings about them and your choices of belief now, do NOT give you free-rein to say your conclusions about christianity must and do apply to everyone else. Your duty now is to love unconditionally, allow each to their own journey and experience, encourage and support anyone who is on a journey and, importantly not to interfere in any journey. IMHO


David Ramses 4 years ago

F_hruz,

I hate to break it to you, but, Santa doesn’t come once a year. In fact, he doesn’t even exist. All those presents come from your mommy and daddy. They wait for you to go to sleep and put them under the tree. They also eat the cookies themselves. Don’t cry, everyone has to be told that when they reach a certain age. Now don’t go tell all your classmates about it. Just let their parents tell them when they think it is time. No, seriously, I appreciate your viewpoints I just wonder why every time you comment your words are full of disdain, anger, and hatred. As far as the US economy goes, yes all the things you said are true. But what I see more than that is all those who are doing well, succeeding, and living the American dream. I would like to see how many of those people spend all their time on Hubpages cursing everyone and everything, complaining and ranting and raving about how bad things are for them. I have been in their shoes, and worse, and I came out of it because I had belief that the future held something better. As far as the national debt goes, I don’t plan on paying that off myself so you can keep the stress from it if you want to. A “sad case of mental disorder and widespread delusion”? Wow. Let’s see here. We have millions of true believers living in a state of inner peace and tranquility (of course there are those posers who claim to be believers but show no signs of it in their lives), experiencing the blessings they believe exist, and learning to love everyone regardless of what the politicians say and do. They speak words of life and encouragement into people. Then we have those who need something to bash, an agenda to oppose, a complaint to voice, and blame to displace. They suffer on a daily basis. They suffer economically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. Many enjoy the suffering and do not want out of it. If they did, they would find their way out of it. Here is a perfect example: I am a software engineer. I lost my job in the economy. I spent 3 months searching, grumbling, complaining, etc. I couldn’t find a job within a reasonable commute. Eventually, I was forced to settle for a job that pays the bills but is outside of my own expertise. I jumped out there in faith and now I am glad I did because the company has plenty of room for growth, promotion, and doesn’t mind training up from within. I could have sat around at the unemployment office complaining because there was no available executive position, but I decided to get out there and take an available job and humble myself a little. Right now, there are 14 million available jobs posted on the internet alone. The major problem isn't that there are no jobs, it is that there are a bunch of whining, spoiled brats who are afraid to work or else too proud to step down a little and work their way back up. The economy is bad. But believers don’t live in the economy, they live in Grace and benefit from it. So who is delusional? Those who claim the millions of believers who experience blessing and happiness are delusional, or those who claim their belief has brought them inner peace, happiness, and blessing? s

Johnnycomelately,

I appreciate your feedback, thank you. I never have a problem with honest, heart-felt answers and responses. This is the nature of debate. Arrogance, however, is the act of having the opportunity to consider something but failing to do so. This is not the case here. I have considered your viewpoints and I do not agree with them. I would not claim you are arrogant because you do not agree with me, rather, I would claim you do not agree with me. And that is ok with me. So, you are atheist in your understanding? So you are “anti-god” in your understanding? So you make a point to oppose the God you claim doesn’t exist or you don’t believe He exists? And to return a little of the uncomfortable online shouting you conveyed, No “god” you claim doesn’t exist has ever been proven not to exist! The thing is, no believers need proof. If there were proof there would be no need for belief because then it would be knowledge, not belief. There is something about belief that attracts believers to belief. You claim the complexity of it is all nonsense? Really? Have you ever read the book you don’t believe in? If you read it you will see the complexity I speak of. Of course, I am sure you, like most others, will not take the time to research the complex teaching behind what you don’t believe in. You just wont believe in it. Arrogance is when you have the opportunity to consider something but do not. And yes, I will pray for you. But more than that, I will not shut you out even though you oppose my beliefs. I look forward to further conversations with you about anything you want to converse about, whether you agree or not:) God bless you.

To respond to your second comment to me, the rocky road I have travelled, or rather, was dragged through, is nothing compared to the freedom and liberation I feel every moment today. And, I have not moved “into Christianity”. I have moved into freedom through a spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ. In fact, Christ was not a Christian. Christianity didn’t exist until after His life. And feel free to speak your opinions about me, you cannot dislodge my faith. I don’t, as I stated, believe in fairy tales. If it wasn’t real it wouldn’t have worked for me. You claim I do not have the right to say my beliefs apply to everyone. Well, I disagree. In fact there are several sources from which I gather those rights. Allow me to list them.

1. Freedom of speech granted to me by the Constitution of the United States

2. Inalienable rights I possess as a human being

3. My willingness to speak about my beliefs

4. The same “free-reign” that enables you to do the very thing you say I cannot do

How can I possible unconditionally love someone without telling them about what I believe, through experience, to be the way to inner peace, happiness, tranquility, love, understanding, salvation, and victory? What kind of unconditional love is it that allows others to experience negative viewpoints and recurring pain without trying to help? The latter is the “unconditional love” you seem to reference and it is actually unconditional acceptance. If unconditional acceptance is what you want I am sorry but I cannot abide. I would then have to accept all the horrible abuse I speak against. However, I can accept your viewpoints as yours. Therefore, you should accept mine as mine. Is it hypocrisy to expect to be able to speak your beliefs without being willing to allow others to speak theirs? Child abusers, criminals, addicts, alcoholics, racists, and dirty politicians are all on “a journey” and, regardless of liberal viewpoints about correctness, I will forever “interfere” with them.

Peeples,

Thanks for your response. All human thought processes are flawed; the most brilliant people throughout history have attested to this. Even believers know that human interpretation of their spiritual beliefs can sometimes be incorrect. The truth is, there is something guiding this screwed up world and it is people. People are guiding it in the wrong direction. So you didn’t form your opinions about God based on other people’s opinions? Then why are so many of your comments direct counters to their opinions? Of course I do realize you formed many of your initial perceptions based on past experiences. But many of your specific opinions are direct counters to, often incorrect, interpretations of God. I called it a pointless, neverending circle because it just leads you to go around in the circle again and again. If the process were part of your healing, why are you not healing? Your testimony to the fact that nothing will ever free you is absolutely true so long as that is what you believe. Myself, and millions of others, are free from the pain of the past. We are free because we believed we could find freedom where freedom is; in Truth. And yes, it has come from belief in God. My freedom from it came from belief in God. The things I suffered in the past no longer hurt me. I don’t feel emotional pain, anger, or disdain because of any of it


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I am willing to admit that I can not say that I am 100% sure there is no God. I can say that is the position I will hold until I have a reason not to. I may be incorrect in those beliefs. None of us will ever really know until we die and then maybe not then (if I am right). I can't explain why my opinions are similar to others. They are opinions and thoughts that I have had in my mind for as long as I can remember. I am sure, like everyone else in this world, that some have been based off things I have read or heard but not the majority. Almost everything in this hub has been a thought of mine since before the age of 15. I can't explain it but I guess my life led me to doubt at a young age. As for healing. I heal a little more each year. Just because I am not free from pain doesn't mean that I am in constant pain. No religion will ever make me forget what happened and as long as I am capable of remembering there will always be pain there. 15 years of my life was daily abuse in one way or another. That doesn't go away no matter how much religion, lack of religion, or therapy you bury yourself in. I however don't allow that pain to control my life. I am glad that you found something that worked for you. I am glad that you feel healed. However I am 29 years old. I've only been out of foster care for 10 years and in that 10 years I have become a pretty good person. I will take healing at this pace. As long as I am happy then I must be doing something right and I am happy. We all have bad days, when I have them I write here. When you have a bad day you pray about it right? And you feel better right? So if we are both feeling better at the end of the day does it really matter how we do it? I respect your beliefs, and for many years I tried to be a Christian. The day I stopped trying a weight was lifted off my shoulders. I feel far better than I ever did when I was trying to believe. We are all entitled to our own beliefs. Mine work for me and yours seem to work for you. I'm glad about both!


David Ramses 4 years ago

Agreed. You always have been a good person, I can tell. I once heard a person say the reason we all come to similar inclinations about God is because we are all born with the built-in sense that there is something greater than us, more important than us, out there. I don't know. Sorry about your experience with Christianity. I had a similar one with it. That is when I decided to forget it and get to know the truth about God for myself. Of course, that is what worked for me. I can tell you are very strong and I am sure you are better acquainted with your perceptions than I am lol good conversation/debate. Sorry for any misunderstanding I might have caused.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

I am always glad you take time to comment even though you don't agree. I welcome a good conversation/Debate with anyone who is willing to listen to both sides. Have a great day David!


UnnamedHarald profile image

UnnamedHarald 4 years ago from Cedar Rapids, Iowa

Well, Douglas Adams wrote that the answer to life, the universe and everything was "forty-two" and that is as good an answer as the one commonly fallen back on: "God moves in mysterious way". Personally, I prefer "forty-two". Nice hub.


dags the drover profile image

dags the drover 4 years ago from still lost in Western Australia

Hi peeples, Wow ... what a hub and wow, what coversations have flowed from it and, right at the start, I feel obliged to declare myself. I (too) am a Christian. And, I want to say, what deep and meaningful questions you ask.

As I have too few moments to scan all the above, I wouldn't presume to rush hasty comments on issues as important as the deliberate abuse of children or why bad things happen to good people.

I know I cannot prove to anyone else the existence of God, however, I also know I experience His presence in many and various ways. One of the things that helps me with that, is that I experience unconditional love from a woman who has chosen to love me for the last 36 years. She does this even though she knows the truth of who I am. Where does that capacity come from?

The other comment I would make at this point is this: If God is who He claims to be, He can cope with honest questions like the ones you have asked. It is also very appropriate to discuss and argue the BIG questions... so well done.

Cheers

dags the drover


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Your questions are a very good starting point for serious examination by any religious minded human to ask: "Where did I go wrong?"

There were never any gods who claimed things ... there were humans who created myths about all sorts of gods and collected them in story books for further distribution to the easily confused so the religious types can absorb such myths and be mislead from understanding reality as what it's all about ... a factual world based on natural events best explained by good human logic and well educated critical reasoning grounded in scientific thought ... any short cuts to god only take you into a dead-end road of wishful thought with no bases in reality.

The basic evil of religiosity is, it offers a way into irrational absurdity and gives you mindless bliss for it, so you never regain a sense of reality as long as you follow these crazy myths of the non-existing man-made almighty gods ... any of them!

If the religious types had any sense for true mental health, they would start by simply asking the basic question: "Why do I have to belief such supernatural things even exist, if I am a product of natural reproduction and a rational being, since nature is the foundation of objective reality ... nothing to do with man-made gods in ALL these strange religions?"

Franto in Toronto


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Now we are getting somewhere, f_hruz. Thank you. Could not have expressed it better myself.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Ok what I am about to say is not to directly talk negative about Chirstians and other God believers but is my real concern. I strongly believe that the bible was origionally written to control the people. Probably had some sort of good intention. Higher up men writing something in the attempt to get others to behave. The conflicting information in it leaves me baffled. What leaves me even more baffled is how easily these religious people do not believe in big foot(who atleast has more chances of being real), unicorns, dragons, or other mythical things. How is it that there is just a god but no other thing we have never seen? I find very little logic in religion. I think my down fall may be that I seek rationality in every aspect of life and while I find no real rationality in religion I do see why some would choose to blindly believe. As you said Franto it offers a mindless bliss that I believe for many can be quite comforting.


David Ramses 4 years ago

So if what you say is rational, what is the point of existence and the purpose of life? What, we just live for no reason so we can become worm food? If that is the case, what is the point in following any rules. I mean, if I only have one pointless shot at a meaningless existence it's time to get all I can get and screw everyone else. If I want to hurt people who is to say it is wrong? When we are worm food it won't matter anyway. This seems irrational to me. It seems that the good achievements and behaviors of unbelieving people has no merit, no everlasting meaning, and will be achieved for no reason. In other words, if what you say is true nothing really matters. I see nothing but hopelessness in this line of thinking. You all can get in here and insult me and claim I am irrational, that I believe in fairy tales, etc. then you spew the most irrational hopeless philosophies. I thought "intillectuals" were supposed to be able to convey messages without insult. Your very tactics are insult. I thought you were at least people who encouraged freedom of expression and thought. As it turns out you are even worse than the intolerant. You claim these evil things about believers while you are insulting them and showing your true abusive natures for what they really are. Rudeness is a weak persons excuse for strength.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

At what point have I ever been rude about the Christian belief? When I didn't agree with it? To me it is not rational, that is simply an opinion. I also don't see driving high end cars, adopting out of one's own country, or living in a mansion rational. That is simply my opinion and no different that you having your opinion. I have never insulted nor have I been rude. If anything I have babied the conversation and limited what I post so that I do not come off as rude.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Sad I lost a follower over a difference in opinions. When will people realize that you don't have to agree with everyone? When will people understand that differences don't have to be a bad thing? I just don't get it! I really don't. What kind of crappy world would this be if we were all of the same opinions?!?!?! I do my best to ensure I am polite and reasonable with all my hubs. I try very hard to make sure I am looking at all sides. Sorry if that is not good enough for some!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

The christian people I respect are those who have a strong, deeply considered belief, hold it to themselves and it really does bring out the best in them, YET they have the grace to realise there is still lots to consider, lots to learn, and others CAN have a valid point of view, regardless.

I try to see from the opposite point of view. Not accepting the existence of a god such as the christians believe, YET I do not deny the right to have their belief and respect the help it can give individuals in their lives, There are some aspects of learning from the bible which I find very helpful..... aspects which I can obtain for myself. If some interpretation is pushed on me and that interpretation seems very suspect or unbelievable I am free to reject it.

Some of the music which has been written, e.g., by Mozart, the Bach Family, Schumann, etc., where the composer was very deeply religious in keeping with their time in history, can take one to high states of ecstasy. Ave Varum Corpus is, for me, one of the most sublime pieces of music ever written..... religious faith obviously played a big part in Mozart's poetry. Yet in the face of the Church's history of control and exploitation, such beauty would seem incongruous.

It seems to me that we need to take at least some of the bad with the good.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Allow me to comment on your last few comments in a rather unconventional manner. I apologize in advance for the inconvenience.

You said, “Ok what I am about to say is not to directly talk negative about Chirstians and other God believers but is my real concern.”

I guess this did serve as a little padding for the fact that you proceeded to do exactly that.

You said,” I strongly believe that the bible was origionally written to control the people. Probably had some sort of good intention. Higher up men writing something in the attempt to get others to behave.”

I don’t think you realize how true this comment is. The belief is (uh-oh I said that word again) that God inspired those men to write the bible, via His Holy Spirit, over the course of several centuries. The “good intention” was to provide people with a way to be free from their self-condemnation and wrong action; and ultimately to receive eternal salvation through belief in Jesus Christ. The “higher up” was God and you have to admit, people of the time did have a more widespread tendency to misbehave. I mean, at the time, there was no law protecting innocent children and women from abuse and slavery except God’s law. There was no law protecting innocent citizens from corruption except God’s law. And there was no truly pure moral system except God’s law.The most advanced civilization of the time was Egypt and they believed it was morally correct to brutally sacrifice virgins to the “sun god” in return for fertility.

You said,”The conflicting information in it leaves me baffled.”

Care to elaborate on this? I have read the Bible six times, in Novel fashion. I have studied it for years and I have not found a single contradiction.

You said,” What leaves me even more baffled is how easily these religious people do not believe in big foot(who at least has more chances of being real), unicorns, dragons, or other mythical things.”

This is where the insulting begins. First of all, I do believe Bigfoot does, or has, existed. I also believe there were many species that existed before archeological times that we have yet to discover. Though I know unicorns and dragons are mystical things, who is to say there have not been wonderful creatures like that before. And what does it matter? The direct answer to your question is they are not as quick to believe that because it offers no spiritual sanctification.

You said,” How is it that there is just a god but no other thing we have never seen?”

Well, this confuses me. The way it is written is as if you are admitting there is a God and that we have not physically seen Him and asking why there is not more…..Ok, I think I know what you really meant. To be honest, spiritual people, especially true Christians, believe there is a God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As well as angels, demons, fallen angels, and possible Nephilim. In fact, we believe there are many spiritual and anti-spiritual things we have not seen because God hides things for us, not from us.

You said,” I find very little logic in religion. I think my downfall may be that I seek rationality in every aspect of life and while I find no real rationality in religion I do see why some would choose to blindly believe.”

We believe (uh-oh) that unbelievers cannot and will not be able to understand the truth, benefit, or wisdom of belief in God, nor His message of salvation because that is what the bible says. This is because a person cannot reason God with human reasoning. The wisdom of God transcends the wisdom of people. It “baffles the wise” to quote scripture. So it makes sense that you cannot reason it with logic. On a side note, true Christians do not consider themselves to be “religious”. In fact, they take the term applied to them as an insult because Christ spent His life speaking out AGAINST religion! “Religious people”, as you call us, are the ones who killed Him.

You said,” As you said Franto it offers a mindless bliss that I believe for many can be quite comforting.”

Most true Christians will agree with you on this point. In fact, that is the very thing they are after. We consider the mind to be the thing that interferes with spiritual bliss. Once we have received and understand the wisdom of God we no longer need to suffer cognative dissonance. Knowledge, wisdom, and skill can then be mastered in a better way because our own minds are always objecting to everything out of pride and an inability to “find logic” in unexplainable things. I have always considered it baffling how people expect to be able to explain, by logic, things which are unexplainable by human perception. Belief and knowledge are two different things. Belief takes courage, surrender, and hope. Knowledge is something else. In fact, the “knowledge” unbelievers claim to have is not knowledge but rather another belief lol This is because you don’t know it isn’t anymore that we know it is. It is just what you believe.

You said,”At what point have I ever been rude about the Christian belief? When I didn't agree with it? “

I answered this above. To elaborate, no, it is not because you don’t agree with it. It is because you, and your cronies, bash it with your insulting comments at the same time you are claiming that is what is being done to you. lol

You said,”To me it is not rational, that is simply an opinion. I also don't see driving high end cars, adopting out of one's own country, or living in a mansion rational. That is simply my opinion and no different that you having your opinion. “

I totally agree with you on all of these points. Do I need to capitalize this statement so you won’t conveniently forget it in your response?

You said, “I have never insulted nor have I been rude. If anything I have babied the conversation and limited what I post so that I do not come off as rude.”

I showed how you did exactly that above. You babied it? No you didn’t; no more than I did. I haven’t babied or padded anything I have said and will never do such a thing. Why would you hold back your beliefs?

You said, “Sad I lost a follower over a difference in opinions. “

No you didn’t. Let’s be truthful.

You said,”When will people realize that you don't have to agree with everyone?”

Now. In fact, I realized this when I entered the conversation. This, however, is not the issue. Insult and disrespect is.

You said,” When will people understand that differences don't have to be a bad thing? I just don't get it! I really don't. “

Yes you do. Differences are never a bad thing so long as someone is not insulting someone for being different.

You said,”What kind of crappy world would this be if we were all of the same opinions?!?!?!”

Well, for starters, there would be no wars over different viewpoints, politics, or beliefs. There would be no unemployment, no homelessness, no addiction, no abuse……the list goes on. If everyone agreed what would we have to argue about?

You said,” I do my best to ensure I am polite and reasonable with all my hubs. I try very hard to make sure I am looking at all sides. Sorry if that is not good enough for some!”

Politeness does not include insult delivered in a polite tone.

You did not lose a follower because of differences in opinion. You lost a follower because you facilitate, allow, and participate in insulting tactics to enforce your opinion and belittle different ones.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Lol instead of writing another hub dedicated to you I will simply ask this. Your response just agreed with all of the things I stated. From big food to religion being comforting. So at what point is any of that an insult? I still see nothing I said as insulting. So yeah difference of beliefs one way or another.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Ok, here goes. I stopped following you because some of your followers were very rude and insulting about it, as I stated 431 times. Also, let me copy and paste this part of my comment since you didn't read it:

In fact, they take the term applied to them as an insult because Christ spent His life speaking out AGAINST religion! “Religious people”, as you call us, are the ones who killed Him.

There was also an implied insult from you that insinuated it would be just as stupid to believe in unicorns and dragons as to believe in God. My answer was that belief in God is in return for spiritual sanctification. When I said, why does it matter about the mythical creatures, I implied that to put belief or faith into something like that would be ridiculous and Christians are not ridiculous. And, really? That is all you had to say to all that? I knew I should have written that one part in all caps so you wouldn't conveniently forget it. And, no, I did not agree with all of your points. I took them out of context to show you that the reasons some of those things would be agreed with are different from the reasons you agree with them. And the first part of this last comment, "Instead of writing a hub dedicated to you" is an insult in itself. Why would you do that? You don't know me. But if you did I would hope it would be longer than that last vague, uninformative response given the amount of material I have given you to work with.


David Ramses 4 years ago

And what is "Big Food"? lol Supersize me! lol "Oh Crikie!! There goes the elusive Big Food running through the woods! Can you get the shot?! It looks just like a giant hamburger!!!" lol


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I have three children to take care of and a husband who will be home from work in an hour. What I write on here is written standing up at a counter in the random quick moment I have. I said write a hub because that's what it would take, close to a thousand words for you to understand where I am coming from in my responses. Again you took something as an insult I feel you shouldn't. Oh yeah and what's so wrong with believing that dragons or unicorns could exist? No implied insult at all. If a God is possible (and you fail to notice the many times I have stated that I may be wrong and don't have all the answers) why would it be wrong to believe in dragons? Asians hold a lot of weight in dragons. Now my apologies but I will finish this later as I have a sleepy 17 month old in my arms as I type this that I must put to bed! Oh yeah and "Big food" is what happens when you are cooking with one hand, watching 3 children, and typing with the other hand.


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

peeples - what have you done? This hub has created some intense comments. Your intelligence and thoughtfulness has stirred some interesting responses. However, have you noticed that none has answered your questions? Some have tried to give you partial answers and opinions, but no answers. Some have taken you off the subject and tried to convert you, did you notice? Its interesting to me that none of the "Crhistian" folks ever identify what denomination they are. It would be nice to know whether you are debating a Catholic, a Methodist, Baptist, a Nazerene, a Holy Roller, or whatever. They all have a different take you know? Here's a question you should ask - how did Cain find a wife?

And this poor old Ramses fella got his feelings hurt by your rude and insulting followers. That's okay because I suggest you break it off with him anyway - he just baits you.


David Ramses 4 years ago

RBJ33,

In fact I did get my feelings hurt a little. I had a hard time with many of the ridiculing comments and insulting insinuations I received about Christians. I walked into this conversation thinking my viewpoints would be accepted along with all the others, even though a friendly debate may ensue. That, however was not the case. What I found was that I was supposed to be a "good Christian" by non-believers standards and not express my viewpoints at all but accept the Christian-bashing comments because others have the right to freedom of speech but I do not. Yeah, it kind of got to me a little. To answer the question you asked in a rude, anti-social manner; I do not have a denomination. I don't even go to church. I prefer to read for myself rather than have someone else interpret it for me. I don't know how Cain found a wife, neither does anyone else. In fact, I don't know how anything in the Bible came about or happened. I just believe it. If I knew I wouldn't need belief. That is the whole point. I have a question for you, though I am sure you will not answer given the fact that your egotistical undertones reveal you are a "sucker punch" kind of writer: what is a Holy Roller?


David Ramses 4 years ago

Nevermind. I don't believe you have enough humanity inside you to respond in a humane, understanding way. So forget it, RBJ33. I will keep to "my own kind" from now on since you view "those Christian folks" as an enemy with no rights who should not have any dignity or human qualities; like the ability to get hurt feelings when they are insulted. Sorry I said anything sir. Please don't whip me anymore. I am a "good Christian folk" now.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Ok so I will just put this out there for the sake of hoping some of you will understand. This is the second worse possible day of the year for me to be debating anyone. Tomorrow is the anniversary of me being taken from my home. Yes I know 14 years....... pity party.... Well I can't help it. I am mentally done for the day. I was having a hard time coping today before all of this and I just can't handle it all today! So everyone have a great night or day and I will be back to comment another day when I am a little more sane and a little more levelheaded. Feel free to have at each other. Thank you to those of you who care enough to understand I am not being rude if I don't comment back!


David Ramses 4 years ago

I am sorry to hear things get better for you. I would try to write some words of encouragement and strength to you but I am sure it would be viewed as an attempt to try to convert you. This will be my last comment on any of your hubs, ever. As well as the last time I read your writing. Good luck to you.


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

No peeples you are not rude in any way - take your time to sort through

your feelings and emotions - you are a good writer and thinker. You don't need to cross swords with the Ramses of the world - angry, bitter, and insecure people that just like to bash others. He must be terribly lonely - I feel for him.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Peeples, a sense of humour is the best remedy for nausiating peoples. Take care, hope to see you back tomorrow.

Jonny


puella 4 years ago

Hi you all!

I have only read a few hubs so far (there's a lot to read yet ;) but, before posting my views about these questions and 'possible' (like in any matter of faith, we have to tolerate living in the "subjunctive mood" and that means ambiguities, uncertainties, and unknowns -perhaps the hardest factor to cope with in life and closer to a certain probability the source of stress -our very personal own-made, as RJB33 has very well put it..) I would like to bring here what was said of Jean Paul Sartre, the day he reached the conclusion that, indeed, God did not exist...Sartre was found sitting on a bench in some street of Paris, and seemed to have the worst burden a man can endure: he felt the agony of realizing that he (Sartre) was indeed alone in this world and without the 'protection and love' of God, and that he was on his own, and his sadness was deep"...This has been referred as the other side of the coin of being an atheist: to say that God does not exist but at the same time calling for God's help in a sorry moment...

Regardless of believing or not in God's existence, still what keeps man striving for the better is hope and how do we create hope? To strive we have to sacrifice, how do we gather the needed strength to sacrifice? What is kindness? What is joy? What do we do with pain (mind you, not anger!); why do we fear? If in the material world it is believed that opportunity and preparedness are/mean the same, why we do/do-not prepare? Why with all possible preparedness we still can fail? Why expectations mean? Are we realistic? Do we know ourselves as well as to know what we are? Do we like what we are? Do we fear what we know we do not know or what we don't know we don't know (RJB33)...If we do not know what we don't know, how can we fear?: to much fancy!!!The only way to not know is to know a certain portion of that what...That certain portion that I know of what I do not know, to me is God, why would you fear it?


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

puella - what?


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peepels I apologize. It has been brought to my attention that I came off as a bully. I got carried away. I thought I was defending myself and I guess it turned a bit pushy. I didn't know you were having a bad day until the end of the conversation. I would not intentionally want to cause negative feeling s or emotions to be worse. I hope you can accept my apology and final message. Best wishes to you.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Ok so after drowning my sorrow I am much better. There has been a lot of debate in the last 24 hours so if in my response I miss something my apologies in advance. Last night as I laid in bed I watched a new American show I think called NYC22. It started out with the different teams of cops responding to different people. When they responded one of each team felt a sense of discust with the people they were responding to. Long story short at the end they all came together and saw the good in the people who at first discusted them. My point of telling you all a random tv show? Well the show left with my point of view on life. I don't have to like someone's ways to respect them as a person and be a good human being to them. I think that is a good lesson for all of us.

Yesterday this whole situation on here started with my post about unicorns and dragons. Which in my opinion was and still is a valid question. My beliefs are just that. They are mine. I don't exect others to always agree. Hell I don't even expect my opinions to be respected. You know why? Because this is the internet!! The internet, a place where a bunch of strangers debate each other. How can we truly expect to always be a part of that and not have conflict?! David, if you're reading this my husband had some insight (or insult which ever way you choose to take it) last night that I will pass on to you. "Don't be a black guy walking into a white biker bar and expect not to brawl" That is an older somewhat dumb saying where we live that applies to this situation. Like it or not different people form different social groups and become protective of those in it. Outsiders are listened to until they say the wrong thing then all social niceness goes out the window. Your input was welcome until you started taking stuff personally. This is the internet and this is the one place you can never take anything personal. I know that is easier said than done. Yesterday I will admit I took your fan mail personal david. You didn't want foster children to see what I wrote and feel hopeless. My relgious beliefs may make one feel as if there is no hope? Excuse my language as I usually do my best to keep polite, but are you fucking kidding? Out of all my hubs and all I have come to be and you are worried my religious beliefs may rub off? What about my strenghth? My ability to continue moving forward even when I feel miserable? My ability to accept others even when I am completely unable to understand them? See because if you had truly read my other hubs you would know that I have spent my life pushing forward even when the easiest route was to just quit! I sir am a damn good person that if anything would be a positive influence on any foster child. I'm an atheist with an occasional bad mouth. I'm also a survivor, a mother, a wife, and a positive influence to many people. I worked hard to become the person I am today and your remarks became insults. Not indirect insult like any that you felt were that I stated. You directly attacked me and my beliefs "I don't want any of the adopted and foster children I work with to read my hub conversations with you and them and receive your dark, dismal, hopeless, pointless messages about life." At what point did you think that was insightful? That was hateful! I may still have pain that has not faded but I go through my life with my head up! The sad part is I am not justifying myself to you which I should not be doing so I will move on. As for you feeling negative about how my followers spoke to you, you are a grown man (I assume) on the internet. I feel no reason to step in when both parties involved seem to be happy to go back and forth. Why would I censor any of my readers? There opinions are just as valuable as anyone else. Their thoughts are just as welcome. Do I wish no one ever got offended by things said? Yes of course I want all people involved to be comfortable but that just isn't life. People will disagree in ways that I may not but that doesn't mean I should tell them to shut up! David I truly did read some of your hubs maybe not all because I have a lot of hubbers to keep up with but I did read them. I am sorry you feel that an internet debate is worth leaving hubpages over, as I see this morning all of your hubs are gone. Debates happen, arguments happen, but none of it should get in the way of other things. Your dislike for me and my followers should not be reason enough to leave the whole site. I must ask though david, if most of your anger was about being attacked by my followers why did you seem to attack me for most of the day? Not saying I wanted to have you attacking others also but just curious as to why you pretty much singled me out for most of the day. Is it simply because I didn't step in? Or is there more to it? Well I may never get an answer to that but I figured I would ask anyway. I'm sure I will be back to comment more later as I reread everything. For now I am sure this comment is too long. Excuse any grammer mistakes as I am rushing to write this I will not be checking it before I post it.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Peeples, I hear your hurt. I feel your strengths. I apologise for any misplaced statements which might have added to your hurt.

Trying to read between the lines of David's posts, I feel that he is having a hard time in making sense of his life too. When someone is so overtly religious, yet in his Profile says he likes discussing controversial issues, etc., it sounds like instability to me. He was not entering debate in order to learn something new; only to stir things up. You were a convenient soft landing for his paranoia. So much ambiguous and sometimes contradictory attitude comes across from his lengthy posts. These do not sound, to me anyway, like a person with a strong, supportive faith in a higher spirit.

I might be wrong, but that is my "take" on this situation. Maybe it calls for compassion. David, if you are reading this, there is so, so much more to life. I am not saying you need to give up any of your beliefs or your faith.....just be a little bit more down-to-earth imperfect human being. That's all. Best wishes, I hope you find some solace.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

While I have very little knowledge of david I do believe that something hit a nerve with him yesterday. Until yesterday he had always been polite and of kind words for the most part. I guess we all have a breaking point. I guess I was that. While he said it was my followers, for a while he directed it only at me. Maybe because we have similar backgrounds he expected different from me. I don't know. I do know that I wish it wouldn't have gone so far. I do my best to be kind without losing who I am in the process. Sometimes things can't be niced up. I don't understand religion and never will. I think that may be annoying for some religious people who take my trying to understand as an attack.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Well I thought they would have taken it down by now but they haven't so I will answer you. The answer is I don't know I guess I just got carried away. Lives a ruined, desolation is everywhere, and the damage is done. This is not the reason I am leaving hubpages. I am leaving because after reading back through all my conversations everywhere I see that every judgement, accusation, and advice I received was something the sender did exactly the same just a comment or two before. I do not consider myself a quality enough writer to contend with the experts on here. Besides, johnnycomelately has revoked my rights to speak about what I choose to speak about. Once again I apologize and I will say that I type nearly 100 wpm and sometimes don't realize how much I have written. So sorry about that it seems it produces long sermons that offend people. I was welcomed with such open arms in the beginning I didn't know why I would want to state my opinion more than once. I am wrong you all are right. That is the second apology. Please go ahead now and cast some more judgements on me. Time is wasting......let the beatings begin. Before too long I won't be registered on here anymore and once I'm off I will be ignoring the subject forever. Just so you know I thought it seemed more like a black guy walking into a white biker bar locked and loaded. I apologize for that too.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, not one person ever said that you could not voice your opinion. Last I checked this is my hub. I never said you were not entitled to your own opinion. However I did make it clear that all opinions are welcomed. The point of having our own opinions is so that we can have them without really caring if others approve of them or not. A debate is just that. When you get in one you must accept that you will not be the only one debating. At no point have I judged you personally. That I can tell no one on here has. We may judge your belief system just as you may judge ours in believing it leaves us with no hope. That is normal and a part of life like it or not. We all judge someone or something. I think you should look back over everything and figure out the real reason you are leaving hubpages. If it is your lack of like for many of us I suggest you continue writing and just simply stay out of religious conversations. Or better yet continue writing and keep having religious conversations but go in knowing that the back and forth nature of these conversations is normal and not personal. I seriously doubt any of my followers wish bad on you. My personal opinion is you just got in deeper than you meant to. I have no ill feelings for you. Honestly I have no ill feelings for anyone I don't know. I simply don't like some of your beliefs. Just as you don't like some of mine. Good luck David.


puella 4 years ago

What? like where is the cheese? ;) or like what did I 'say? any more concrete what?

If no matter how I fill my days, I still feel alone in the crowd, I need to explain that to myself; if I do my best (in terms of my knowledge and efforts -always improvable) and still feel that 'yet, it was not good enough.." like in the old poem... I have to look inside me and go by the check-list to more light, and a long and deep etc.

And so far, to my scientific approach to life, I wonder why after thousands of years, animals are still animals, and humans can choose between being perfectly humans (i.e. accept imperfections as opportunities to betterment) or, follow darwinism, and be perfectly animals. Is it a matter of choice? On this second 'choice' there is no poetry possible nor sweetness...Just instincts, basic ones.

The hard part when facing a decision is to acknowledge what is the right thing to do, then to do it is almost unstoppable..some guru said once.

Humans do have an embedded ethics as natural gift; even a young kiddo knows (unknowingly as kiddo cannot use logic properly nor has the full set of rules and manners for a socially-accepted behaviour) of ethics, but even with a less developed brain this kid will prove that toddlers choose manipulations to get even when their needs left unattended...Naturally... not learned...and to me, that's piece, a little piece, of godliness...

Just the same that we are what we eat, we are what we think...Thoughts and, therefore words, do mean and create health but can also create illness: they self-somatize or upon others, also somatize.. Can we say that it's God's fault or somebody else's? Then we would be really the last species on the animal kingdom, because it's been studied that even rats do have a sense of loyalty among their kins..And loyalty implies a wide range of considerations, so far in the 'humans' realm.

And remember, for a little aspect of man's freedom, rules of grammar and speech and pronunciation, mean already too big an imposition to be willingly followed at all times, and that would explain some kinds of slangs and vocabularies.. Attitude is behind a lot of this. Attitude is fueled by our thoughts, regardlessly, to be consistent with what some here have written.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Whatever. It is; it cannot be otherwise. Hubpages is just another experience in rejection.....


David Ramses 4 years ago

There is an adjoining conversation going on in RBJ33 hub The Everlasting Debate. Perhaps it wi shed some light on the subject......


David Ramses 4 years ago

And thanks anyway but I have had enough of all your guys' advice; as you have mine. Writing sucks. It gets me into trouble because I cannot write what I want to so......consider me self-censored.


David Ramses 4 years ago

So this cowboy travelled to Italy to see the pope. He got all dressed up and went to the Vatican. The pope showed up with his entourage. He walked toward the Vatican through the crowd of people. The cowboy hoped the pope would stop and speak to him but instead the pope walked past him and over to a homeless, dirty beggar who was dressed in rags. The pole took the beggars hand and whispered something in his ear and the went on inside. The cowboy wanted to see the pope so badly that he went over to the beggar and traded clothes with him. The next day the cowboy dressed up like the beggar, messed up his hair, and made himself appear dirty. The pope showed up and began walking to the Vatican through the crowd. He took the cowboys hand and leaned to whisper in his ear. He said,"I thought I told you to get the fuck out of here."


puella 4 years ago

Yes, I can understand the feeling/frustration/awe of the... cowboy; theatricals (as a way of misleading for a goal set) are old-time tricks (Greeks and before...) and as such, disappointing and deceiving and unfortunately widespread in our societies (what was considered as an allowable marketing for products, by mentioning half-truths (that is, lies) is now a specialty :) for business sake. What is deceiving is not the concept itself but its practice for profits. Ethics versus survival of the least dotted.

I also thought that we could write our thoughts without bugging others here, but perhaps philosophers are right: faith in the unseen powers still cannot be argued about as right or wrong (true or not) when it comes to proofs; tangibility or intangibility could be a matter of personal intricacies; criticizing others faith by just proving inconsistencies/counter-examples is a method more for tangible world, in a sort of sorting-out same-nature factors that positively can make up the sac.

One important aspect though is to remember that, in the story about the cowboy, beggar and the pope, is that they are all humans who made their choices based on whatever knowledge they had a the time and for their own particular purposes and expectations about it, regardless of knowing fully or not; this is life; we are constantly before a fork and we must choose; it's our duty to do the homework before it, but sometimes it's just a matter of a bet with a random result that we pray it's the expected; expectations are to be reality-based and, of course, there are the miracles ;) Is it God or just good/bad luck? I live by my faith in a God that may have been overestimated when contrasting His abilities to forget about us and our inabilities to do the right thing; there is a physical law in science: all closed systems will balance; mathematically means that what is added/subtracted in one side of the equation will definitely be subtracted/added in the other side of the equation so the equality holds true and factual. Do we want to get to choose on what side of the equation to be? Do believers control that choice? How about non-believers? And what do we do when in the wrong side?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

puella I want to make sure I am following you here. So you do believe in a God right?


David Ramses 4 years ago

Humanly speaking, there is no wrong side. Just as there are no mistakes; only the results of the decisions. If we want different results we have to make different decisions. The thing about the pope was what is commonly referred to as a joke here on earth. But I guess you can Sigmund Freud your way through it:) I must say that you must be a multiple PhD holder from a different region that me because I could not understand half of what you said. Hey, careful talking about your faith on here....it's like a purple people eater walking into a smurf biker bar: expect a cartoon brawl like on the old Batman series. Or was it two guys walking down the street; one walks into a bar; the other one ducks........on a serious note I agree with everything I didn't understand you say:)


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

Sorry, I have no idea what puella is talking about - I don't know wht his point is. I didn't grasp the revelance to peeples questions - which still no one has answered completely

Ramses - good story about the cowboy and pope - I like it. I once again invite you to a debate - perhaps ole johhny and I can give you some insight on debating - not bashing, criticising, insulting - just presenting thoughts, beliefs, positions, asking questions, attempting to understanding etc- What do you say?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Yes RBJ in my attempt to resolve the issue with David I failed to mention you were correct. No one has fully answered my questions. It leads me to wonder how many people have given them real thought. Do people think about these things before deciding to be part of religion? Or do they simply accept the words that are given to them by preachers and a book? I have spent many years trying to figure out why there are only a few books that people say come from a God. Yet so many other books exist. And why is it that no books have been written recently from a God? Would a God really just say here I am and then disappear for hundreds of years? How do believers justify these things? I really wish someone could explain to me the thought process involved in blind faith.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peeples, I would be happy to answer every question from a Christian viewpoint but I have been told that is "diarrhea of words" to write to much. And the answers to ten questions would be very long and undoubtedly serve to turn the questions into bait.


puella 4 years ago

so... sorry to make you waste time,really!

no, no PhD's ;)

Yes, I believe in God and practice a Christian faith

Yes I love science, math, statistics, probabilities, physics, biology, chemistry and... literature ;) I do not like gardening nor keeping the grass green (what a waste!); I like the city yet I grew farm-raised ;) I can answer how to grow garden vegetables and fruits...and grilling.

I like to philosophize and strongly believe that we create every time we pronounce a word; I never procrastinate; I never feel envious of anybody's good luck. I feel that I have not fullfilled everything I was meant to be just because of my choices. I am stubborn and I never quit...they quit me though ;);) and I try not to take anything Ipersonally... I am very far from perfection and i believe that to be perfectionist may be an obstacle in our advancing..too much self-censoring...I believe in responsibility and keeping my word; I love other cultures and keep comparing their languages to ours and find the similarities just amazing!!! No wonder there is a commonality across the planet in the way to conceive deity.

I like to cook but I liked it much more before than nowadays...I feel that being a retiree is really boring and diminishes my mind yet, it's a fact of life ;)

I find that Hawking (particle physicist), even when an atheist, is right when he says about God : "God may have written the laws of the universe, but God does not break those laws..." and that if "we could express mathematically the laws of the universe we could read God's mind" and that religion/faith is not arguable with science terms just because of the little thingy of "proofs" of the non-tangible . Cheers.

the


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David, I loved your joke about the Pope and the Cowboy. For me the most important guy there, in the eyes of Jesus, was the beggar.

I like your clear, logical and informed comments. Please keep them coming, and forgive me my trespasses, as I forgive yours.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Johnnycomelately, accepted; completely and wholeheartedly. Thank you. I apologize for my offenses to you. But most of all, I apologize for getting carried away and dragging peeples through my brash commentary.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Puella, nice to meet you.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David No need to apologize any more it was accepted the first time. I am curious David what is your take on other unknown things being real. Yesterday it was taken wrong but I am curious. Dragons, Unicorns, multiple Gods (such as greek Gods), or even stuff we have never heard of. I God is possible and in your thoughts believable then what is your take on other things. Do you believe it is possible?

I catch myself contadicting my own self sometime. I don't believe in God yet I won't live in a home where someone has died because if people are right I don't want to live with a ghost. This is my husbands glory moment when he gets to laugh at me and give me the "Oh I thought you didn't believe in unproven things". Is there a limit to what is believable and what is not and how do you set that limit?


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

I want to compliment Mr Ramses - he has not left us - we have started a debate under my The Everlasting Debate - you could all join us if you wish - it may prove interesting.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Now if we could just get him to republish his hubs! I will have to take a look over there! Oh and welcome Puella, Nice to meet you! Your knowledge exceeds mine by far! I look forward to seeing you around HP!


David Ramses 4 years ago

Short answer is, "yes". I do because my God tells me "have no other gods before me" rather than "there are no other Gods". The bible warns us to stay away from soothsayers, necromancers, and conjures of spirits not because they don't exist but because they do. I personally believe dragons existed and that they breathed fire because the hebrews recorded an event that involved their witness of a Laviathan that was massive, had scales, and breathed fire and it and up out of the sea. The said, "we were like grasshoppers in its sight". From a spiritual viewpoint I believe that there is no limit to what you can believe. In fact, I think that what you believe manifests itself in the world. I guess you set the limit according to what you want. But on a paranormal perspective I do believe there are and have been many unexplainable things, occurrences, and existences in the world. I encourage you to watch the hit docudrama The Fourth Kind; prepare to be freaked out.


David Ramses 4 years ago

I thought you all may find this interesting. We were discussing the existence of mystical fire breating creatures. Today, there exists a creature called a Bombardier Beetle that has a cannon-like body part in its abdomen that fires a hot liquid, hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide, at 100 degrees celcius, up to five feet as a defensive mechanism. The amazing things that exist in nature today, in my view, give credence to the possibility of mythical creatures in the past as well as paranormal activity today. http://www.pnas.org/content/96/17/9705.full


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Unique little bug! Very interesting that it does all this and its main enemy is an ant! I would think that it would have a larger animal to worry about protecting itself from. This is a perfect example of the possibilities of the world. I wonder what else will be discovered in my lifetime!


puella 4 years ago

Thanks David ;) and peeples ;)

See you around soon


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

I am reminded of a joke which came out soon after that film "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" was released.

Space walkers had "Close Encounters of the Furred Kind." They found rabbits wandering around in space.


MizBejabbers profile image

MizBejabbers 4 years ago

Peeples, you have raised some good questions and also some good comments. I read your profile, and as we say in the South, "bless your heart!" I am not an atheist nor a fundamentalist Christian, but I was raised by one of each. In fact I did a hub on growing up in their household. You have two children. It might give you an insight on their feelings since they are caught between you and your Christian husband. By the way, I am very glad you found a good man! Voted you up!


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peeples,

Since you suggested to your followers that the questions are not rhetorical, I will answer them in short fashion. These answers are a Christian viewpoint, not the Christian viewpoint, but a Christian viewpoint. Please accept it as my own and not a law I expect everyone to follow. To each his own.

1. He can; he doesn’t want to.

2. I don’t know why it is allowed to happen. I just wish I were there each and every time so I could kill the abusers. I, personally, take comfort in this: “Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord; I will repay.”-God And this: “It would better for a man to tie a millstone around his neck and throw himself into the river than to harm one of these little ones.”-Jesus Christ

3. I believe God is LOVE; not necessarily loving in the manner we understand the word. I don’t believe God allows it to happen, but rather, suffers through it with us.

4. Anyone who tells you it is God’s plan is a fool who does not know God. God’s plan does not involve anything like that for us. That stuff is all part of someone else’s plan.

5. I believe with the same way a child believes that Batman or the Tooth Fairy is real, with an open heart. My faith has become strong in my belief due to the tangible results I have seen because of it. Fact and truth, in my view, are two different things.

6. It is not impossible for a dead person to come back, doctors do it all the time.

7. I can answer the last question to this. The other parts, we have already discussed. We justify it because we believe the Bible is true, and the Bible says,

“Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.” Exodus 20:3

“I am the way and the truth and the life. And no man comes to the Father but by me.” John 14:6

“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not appointed such for you.” Deuteronomy 18:9-14

And these are only a few of the passages.

Also, Christians often choose Christianity because it is the only “religion” that offers a Messiah and the only one that offers complete forgiveness and unconditional love in its very doctrine. This is not to say Christians actually do this for others, most “Christians” consider themselves Christians because they go to church or else they are part of the “Christian” demographic.

8. I don’t believe God does things to people. I think people do things to people. I think God set the laws of nature as well and those laws follow themselves. I believe, not just people, but “life” in general has free will. This includes the earth. Incidentally, many do believe death is a blessing. “To live is Christ; to die is Gain” Philippians 1:21

9. I struggle with this one too. I plan to ask God when I see Him. If He doesn’t answer, I plan to throw a punch at Him. And then say, “I love you.” Lololol “You will be stronger now because of that.” I am sure this will not happen, of course, but I do have a few bones to pick with Him myself. God encourages this type of open, honest relationship with Him in His Word; the Bible.

10. “Christians” struggle with all these same questions. Christianity, Christ to be more clear, makes it possible to no longer feel the need to hate and be angry with someone over hurts and offenses. In Christianity, there is actually an explanation to all of this. However, it is basic and vague and not generally accepted by non-believers. In fact, it is struggled with by believers such as myself. The answer is, Adam fell and brought evil into the world. Since then evil has multiplied and we all must suffer for it. I personally don’t see how it is fair but that is just me. I really believe there is more to what I believe than what I know. There is no justification for the many innocent victims you mention. I understand your struggles and I share many of your struggles. Regarding your own past, all I can say is this: “There is no reason nor justification; therefore no excuse. I only wish I could have been there, in my current state. Because I would have shown those victimizers something they have never seen before; their final moment.” I am sorry. And your questions are very, very valid. We all have them in one form or another. God bless you…..or wait……lol jst kdn


puella 4 years ago

There is pain and ... there is pain; there is the unthinkable pain that no care/love, afterwards, can get it extinguished nor erase the traces...That kind of pain is known to shake any faith, hope, sanity.. It is said that this kind of pain builds character, but ... at what a price! Both the source of this pain and the survival to it remain a mystery and Saint Paul, in Corinthians 1, 12-13 says that we will understand it when we see God face to face... The reason behind this statement is that our human abilities are limited, finite and the mystery of pain belongs to the realm of far and beyond our capabilities to understand/explain, much less endure... It is like trying to condense the universe into a smaller physical unit so we can study it and understand it...simply not possible. All this we talk about pain sometimes remains like a void...no echos...no resonance...like empty words...like trying to hide the sun with the tip of the finger...

However, we humans have, within all the unexplainable and non-sense, a sort of godliness in surviving the pain...What Christian faith offers is to heal faster through forgiveness the other(s); one route to forgiveness is handing 'it' to God and ask Him to do as He wants with 'it' as maintaining the hope for punishment is a way to maintain the pain alive...without any effect onto the other(s); so freedom for whatever is left of us from that pain is or only possible way to start all over...

C.S. Lewis wrote about the problem of pain (from a Christian point of view) many years before pain struck him when he lost to cancer his wife; hen he wrote again about pain but this time as the sufferer...and this time he blamed and accused and insulted God; when he finally settled to accept his reality, he moved on, and wrote again now from the perspective of a Christian in pain...His writings are amazingly applicable and he has the utter ability to say exactly what he wants to say to touch us and that we can understand and feel understood and feel that we have a shoulder to lean on...

On the other hand, believing in ghosts (32% of Americans believe in ghosts/spirits) although there is not enough evidence so far...) is admitting the immortality of the spirit/soul? If everything else is finite, then how do we explain immortality if not by/through the non tangibilities, and therefore, can we think/believe in a God too?

The Church curiously is not outspoken in this subject, which means eloquently... Well, aside, I learned in high school (a few centuries ago) about the law of conservation of matter (for a closed/controlled system closed to other matter and energies) that states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed but only transformed... This subject is not open for pillow-consulting ;) so I guess the bus stops here, at least for now...


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

All of these comments tend to emit a political odor - avoid the subject - deflect the issue at hand.

STILL NO VALID ANSWERS TO ANY OF YOUR TEN QUESTIONS !!!!!

Just blah blah blah


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

"6. It is not impossible for a dead person to come back, doctors do it all the time."

This is not true at all, David. Doctors might resuscitate a person from the unconscious state, but not if they are "dead." Rigorous and careful science has allowed this to happen. Seeing a need; postulating a theory; proposing a way forward; setting up a trial; running that trial; keeping a record of the method and the results; restating the need; repeat the old trial or set up a new on; draw conclusions; put everything before one's peers for comment and review; YET still be willing to leave the conclusions at 99% certain, in lieu of further information coming to light.

Death in these circumstances is not a bad thing, or a failure. It's just another conclusion to be recorded.

On the question of Love: Would you be willing to lay down your life for your friend? Do you value your life? Is it more or less important than that of your friend?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David and puella you both wrote a lot and I appreciate your comments. I have a busy day today but I will be back as soon as possible to write out my response fully.


David Ramses 4 years ago

RBJ,

If I asked each of these questions, with a reverse point of view, to non believers, your answers would look the same. In other words you have no answers either. That is why I used the word believe so much. Trying to get concrete evidence out of a Christian who admits they believe but do not know is like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip


David Ramses 4 years ago

Johnny,

What about all the people who are dead on the operating table or at the scene, some for several minutes, and then are brought back by EMTs or doctors? There are many out there who claim, doctors included, that what you just said is not entirely true.


puella 4 years ago

Thanks peeples ;)

RJB33…you are now obviously impatient ;) and have called us unfocused and unrelated-subject-chatters… You want the “followers” to follow? Here? Or somewhere else? Maybe your other debates? That’s valid…but you should not be (I feel) pushy, don’t you think? Genuinely-candid asked. And no hard feelings…I am far from that. To tell you the truth, I sense (hope I’m wrong, especially for yourself and your blood pressure) there is an attitudinal “tone” of talking in you… I repeat, I hope I’m wrong. And I take the liberty to remind us: this is not like a business workshop-retreat about brainstorming on strategic policies to set for the present, near future or eternity… ;) even that task, with all of the tangible data accumulated, still can fail and regress and hurt our very life (and we do not have God in that picture) or do we dare to? Do we dare to blame God for not “letting” me be the Lotto winner?

On one hand, the HP editors state clearly that we are free to write (knowledgeably) about most of the allowed topics (there are some not allowed and also there are some ‘manners’ to follow). Let’s just keep the tone ‘atoned’ and the manners “manner able”. Yes? A big TY!

On the other hand, regarding this particular hub-subject (intangible and one of the oldest topic in philosophy…way before Jesus and monotheism), whoever feels like has something to say, will say it, regardless others will like it or not, will consider it relevant or not, or will answer some issues or not; however, nobody should feel entitled, just because some ‘followers’ do not follow his/her acute needs for answers, to come here and tell us that we, or some of us, only chat about what is not in the table. The appropriate should be to ignore those (is it possible?)…of course it is!! And to engage with whomever is on ‘your’ track. And what about when, as you say, ‘nobody’ bothers to be in your track? I let you figure the possibilities and freely choose.

On the other hand, (mind you, sometimes I feel very handy ;), if the answers you require or need or just that interest you, are not written, then you still have options. The only option none of us have is to get upset and voice it in a way that might sway the forum or make someone leave.

On another hand (and not-running out yet), is this a topic about winning the discussion or about sharing experiences and comment and perhaps complete of possibly related experiences not so considered before the hub? And perhaps, on someone else’s points brought up, one’s initial inquiry gets deeper on not-answerable by humans terms… Perhaps…There is no catechesis here, but it does not hurt to ask: is there a pope-like figure within this hub? Well Catholic and all, I was taught that the Pope will rule on faith and interpretations , the core of the word of Jesus, mistakenly. That means, God will inspire, like inspired the writers of the Old Scriptures, to rule by God’s designs, but, only on the matters of faith. Whatever the organization and other worldly affairs, they can err like just any other human being. So I was raised. I am still raising myself…it will stop, for me, “the day the music dies”.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David- I had planned this long response to your post but by the time I got back on here you had written something else that caught my attention even more. "Trying to get concrete evidence out of a Christian who admits they believe but do not know is like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip" So basicly what you are saying is that you admit that you don't know the answers but you still believe, you have faith without needing to know, am I correct on that? If I am may I ask why you don't feel the need to know? I think one of the most wonderful things about humans is our brain and thought process. The need for answers and understanding. The ability to think about possibilities and to make informed decisions. While saying that and please don't take this as an insult (seriously don't take as insult) but don't you think that believing in something without knowing is kind of a waste of the human brain in a sense? How can believers accept something without knowing. If someone said the world will end tomorrow but there is no proof no one would believe them. I guess my true question here is this How is blind faith justified in the mind of the believer?

Also in your other post you spoke a lot of "Christians". Last night I was talking to my husband and he asked me why I let the over religious fanatics bother me, why not just ignore it. After a couple moments of thought I realized that if we just ignore it than it will continue. To ignore those who use the bible as a justification of ignorance we are saying it is ok. Maybe that is one way where real believers and atheists could agree.

Puella, I want you to know since you are new to the conversation that when I sat down and wrote this hub I had no idea that 2 weeks later I would be sitting at over 100 comments. I honestly am very aware that most of those who are religious do not have the answers to my questions because David was right. The majority of believers just believe without proof. It makes me wonder sometimes about the possibility of a difference in chemicals in the brains of religious people and of atheists. I also know that more than likely no one anywhere has the answers to the questions. Religion is completely faith based. The only answers possible are answers provided by the bible which any atheist is not going to believe because most of us believe the bible is a work of fiction. This hub was origionally written with the thought of making people think. Not to convert or anything but to show in writing how little information is out there about a God other than in the bible. If someone had fact based answers I would love to hear them because I really do seek answers. If I am wrong and there is a God I want him/her to explain to me why this world is what it is and why things happen to the innocent without him/her stepping in.

I have plenty more to add but am out of time for now!


RBJ33 profile image

RBJ33 4 years ago

puella - my hope for you is that the music goes on for a very long time. I'm sorry but reading your writings is like trying to read and understand an insurance policy - you are way over my head. I am content that I don't grasp your points, nor you meanings.

I will bow out of this debate now - peeples is on top of it and very capable of holding her own.

peeples - there are no concrete answers to your questions that religion can offer. We are part of the animal kingdom, we are supposedly rational animals, but animals none the less. Bad things happen to animals in the natural course of things. Weather disasters just happen because of the atmosphere around our planet.


puella 4 years ago

Peeples ;)

It is believed and practiced in the religious world the sooner teachings of basics of faith, and rules, and sins, and evil, etc., in youngsters. Maybe one important reason is that at young age, still the brain is ‘blank’ and innocent hence the Zen story (a cup of tea) gains some importance ;). Maybe, for outsiders of faith and religion, the main purpose is that kids are subject to easy manipulations, and as such, to brainwash is, well, easier. That is true too. But as parents generally it’s not the consideration when kids go to Sunday school. Now, when the teachings and the practice (in adults) do not match, a young brain will detect it and, will register and store it.

Kids deal with contradictions a bit differently and, unfortunately, badly; usually they blame themselves!!! Then, in later times, the kid will either pretend or simply will misbehave (still unfigured by parents) and the kid will be blamed again. The seeds were there long time ago, and probably went unnoticed by parents (careless or ignorant of some subtleties or chosen blindness)… But the fact is whatever good or bad at young age is recorded forever…And there is no Freud, or Jung, or Ayurveda or alcohol that will erase the damages or the good nesses…

A parent, naturally feels proud when a his/her kid resembles him/her… and sooner than recommended, those parents start brainwashing the kiddo into what were their frustrated/unfulfilled dreams without the slightest idea that in doing so they are, perhaps y/n, they are acting with too much power on someone that does not belong to them. A detained reading of the Gibran’s book “the prophet” will demonstrate sufficiently and from the believer point of view why our kids do not belong to us in the possessive way parents conceive them.

But returning to the original point (mine ;) is that there are good reasons and perhaps not-so-good reasons to induce/immerse kids into faith and religion. It is my experience that those as adults that possess a faith and/or in a religion (=hope and the “not-giving-up” that comes with faith), do cope more hopefully than those who are not; I may be wrong; I am not different, I have struggled for a long time for stuff common to most people; still, my faith kept up and kept me afloat.

Believer as adults who were taught since youngsters will have then less inquiries to God’s ways than a non-believer; it’s not just blind faith: we have been shown by environment of the unexplained and we have been provided faith-based reasons (w/o options) which are dogma-based (not at the eyes of the youngster but to the adults); in an analogy: a kiddo in a family will love parents in spite of neglected or mistreated (to a certain level, usually dictated by the biological/mental strength of kiddo or by the contradictions from parents or by uneven relationships with each parent or among siblings). Still, the kid will love parents because there is a need to be there with progenitors above the rest (seen in the animal kingdom too) and because (my thoughts) there’s a sort of a filter in kid’s mind that will exert the marvelous forgiving without even knowing it; this ‘syndrome” has been described in other experiences as “Stockholm syndrome”. More blindness that this? Yet… there is some sort of affection; imagine towards a God? Whose words are of hope, and of not-pretending but being real (He sees our hearts), and of love and turning the other cheek, etc. etc. and, whomever has experienced God in his/her life, throughout the little miracles of everyday (with their portions of struggles and pain), would not be worried about the ‘unknowns’…just the same that one trust a husband/wife, a brother/sister, a parent, a friend, etc. unless something comes up that tells otherwise; and how many?, how many times we put aside, forget, forgive, trespasses of our closest, and keep on? Why? How? Blind faith too? Do we really abandon them without giving them the second (3rd, 4th, and seventy times seven, Jesus dixit) chance?. This is also the little godliness in our soul. The unexplainable does not preclude the possible (puella dixit).


puella 4 years ago

I am sorry that RBJ33 chose to leave. I'd have wished for him to stay

However, before bidding farewell he just addressed that "reading me was like reading and trying to understand an insurance policy" and "EUREKA"!!! came to mind.

Eureka is what Archimedes said when he was trying to figure how to measure the "volume" of solids and discovered that it should be equivalent to he amount of water displaced by that solid when immersed in a tank or bathtub (like archimedes did with himself) in a controlled experiment.

And eureka is what I say when RJB33 compared reading me here and reading an insurance policy ;)

And what do you do when you do not understand the terms on the policy? you quit it? NO!!! if you need it, you will have to get thru the lack of clarity and ask until you feel you can trust it...well sort of ;)

But, if at all, what is there to materially gain from my writings? Is that "approach" the one to use here? that is, "if I fail to grasp puella's mess will I be money-trapped?" or, "will puella's sanscrit or criptics get me in trouble with the unknown?

Bla bla bla is what he said of us. True?

peeles has brought to my attention her purpose here... and it's a sublime one as she is seeking a path, at least a path, to greater truths.

I know that for an outsider of religious practice what I am about to say may sound empty, but to the non-believers around Him, when asked how they had to approach God, Jesus said "just ask and you will be given, pray and you will be heard, seek and you will find..."

One does not need to be a Christian to find these words true; we create with our words...and we find a balm when just, humbly, ask, not just to God but to anyone. One asks because one is in need: that is a humbling condition per se; to be in need and ask for help is to acknowledge that we are in a weak condition, humbly accept it and humbly ask for help. That is a pre-condition to ask God: we submit our prayer (in our own words and sometimes not even with words, just closing eyes and hand yourself and your worries into God to see for your pain and to act)..Humility...Jesus said a lot about it

It's impossible to write here on this subject and not to mention our faith or religion, especially when peeples has stated that she is seeking, that she does not go blindly, etc each will contribute according his/her experience, but, a big but, I do not think, from what I have read, that there is an attempt to :Christianize" anybody here.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David,

"What about all the people who are dead on the operating table or at the scene, some for several minutes, and then are brought back by EMTs or doctors? There are many out there who claim, doctors included, that what you just said is not entirely true."

Death is the end of life. No life of that individual person remains in the body. The person who was "brought back" on the operating table was not dead. Left without help, without the intervention of modern technology, yes that person would become "dead."

I understand deeper than this. I have watched a team trying to resuscitate a badly injured man and felt they were taking unreasonable steps, and that he should be allowed to die. Yet my judgement was wrong as it turned out. The person was resuscitated, and I had very meaningful chats with him later, whilst x-raying him in the rehab. ward.

He had been resuscitated from an unconscious condition. He had not been dead.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peeples,

From a non-believing, tangible evidence mind-set, yes, you are correct. What I mean by that is this. To me, a believer, I do know because I see the results of my faith and God’s Grace in my life and my heart. To you, you would consider that statement to be insane and my recognition skills to be skewed lol. It is not that I don’t feel the need to know. It is more like I believe I do know.

I also think one of the most wonderful things about humans is our brain. I seek answers and understanding in a way many people do not. Let me explain. I have been studying extremely complex martial arts since I was very young. I have studied philosophy and theology as well. I have a bachelor of science in computer science. I am working on an MBA. I have mastered the sciences of diverse subjects ranging from hot-line tree trimming/arboriculture to architectural integrity. I love to learn, grow, and acquire skill. I am an excellent researcher, always seeking the answer. I believe I have found the answer. However, my “blind-faith” comes into play when questions cannot be answered.

I think a lack of belief in anything, a lack of educational pursuit, and a lack of memory-generating life experiences (all three together) would be a waste of the human brain. Other than that, I do not believe there is such a thing. The brain is a wonderful thing, but the heart is a beautiful thing. Some “blind believers” may not use their brain, but I definitely use mine. In fact, my brain generates very deep thought processes that lead me to my very beliefs.

Blind faith is justified in the believer the same way it is justified in a honey bee. Scientifically speaking, the honey bee’s body is too heavy for its wings to carry it. But it doesn’t know that so it flies anyway. A fisher spider is too heavy to walk on water, but it doesn’t know that so it walks on water anyway.

I have to agree with your husband. Just ignore it. If you consider me a religious fanatic I hope you will not. I haven’t been to church in a very long time. I read the bible, study in school, study in martial arts studios, hang out in biker bars, hang out in tattoo parlors, raise my babies, spend time with my wife and enjoy my life. Everyone knows I am a believer. In the biker bars they call me “Preacher”. Not because I shove religion down people’s throats but because I stand on what I believe. I am not afraid to have a conversation about my beliefs over an ice cold Bud Lite with a non-believer. In other words, I am just a normal person with a great life and a certain set of beliefs. No different from you or anyone else in that respect.

I have to tell you. If you were chasing off religious fanatics I would most likely join in. In fact, I have been there. I was involved in a recent “chasing off” of westboro Baptist church members over a very sensitive issue involving American soldiers……I will leave that at that.

I don’t know about the difference in chemicals in brains of believers versus nonbelievers. But I am 100% certain my brain has different chemicals than nearly everyone I have ever met! Ever feel like you were actually from another planet?! Metaphorically speaking, of course. I too want God to explain those very same things to me.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Puella,

That is so true! Just because something is unexplainable does not mean it is impossible. If you don't mind, I am going to put some miles on that one!


David Ramses 4 years ago

Jonny,

I see! Thank you for clarifying. I can tell you are very articulate and very knowledgeable about medical subjects. Given the way you wrote these facts, I am inclined to agree with you. Here is the question your comment produces in me: Do you consider it possible that the "ressurrections" mentioned by religion are instances of what you described using medical fact? I was just thinking that before advanced medical knowledge the people you are calling resuscitated would have appeared to be dead. Especially since that appearance can lead to fatal mistakes in the medical world today....


puella 4 years ago

But of course (like uncle Sherlock used to exclaim ;);) to the real doctor, dear Watson) I love to pass the 'wand' to you ;) some inspiration on this difficult to come around topic is welcome


David Ramses 4 years ago

Puella,

There were 3 men sitting around a table playing cards. One believed in some sort of higher power. One believed in nothing. One believed in a specific higher power. All of a sudden, a messenger approached in a panic. "the world is going to end in 5 minutes!" he exclaimed seriously. The card player who believed in some sort of higher power stood up and said, "oh my! I am going to church to affirm my belief in a specific power before I die!" and ran away. The card player who believed in nothing said,"Oh my! I am going to go see my wife one last time before I die!" and ran off. The third card player just sat there. "what are you going to do," asked the messenger. The third card player replied, "I shall finish the game" and calmly played another card.


puella 4 years ago

David!

:) Yes, trust is key and keeps our minds at peace; it's the essence of being stoic in times of trial...

woody allen is said to have reacted similarly to the 'end of the world'on short-notice ;);); " hey woody, tomorrow is confirmed as the day of the end of the world!...and woody says. OH then I will... have my carpets cleaned!"

peeples and David:

You both will love to check on an article of Scientific American by Daisy Grewal, June 1, 2012 (#13) and about our super topic: Faith and Intuition are intimately related...The article's title is "How critical thinkers lose their faith in God"...You can download it I did. from www.scientificamerican.com I will read tonight...

You know, there is a sixth sense (similar or equivalent to common sense, but with more soulish stuff) that is called by experts the "nous" defined as: intelect, intelligence, wit, common sense, reasoning, understanding, mind, intuition...

I believe that not everyone has this sixth sense and those with it do have a call for more than ordinary life...;) I am eagerly reading and ... gasping...I just love this "nous' thing ;)

Cheers


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David:

"Do you consider it possible that the "ressurrections" mentioned by religion are instances of what you described using medical fact?"

Yes, something like that. However, since we humans are pretty much unchanged in our emotional needs over the past 2000 years, I would also expect those onlookers and the authors of the stories would have added embellishments to concur with their accepted beliefs.

The "scientific" explanation can seem uninteresting, too complex, too serious and specific for most people to swallow, so a bit of mystery and the intangible added on can make it much more inviting. And memorable, because it has obviously been passed on down through the ages.

Do you ever read about the person who just "got better in due course" on the front page of the newspaper? Of course not, but if that person had a spell imposed by a witch doctor, then they got better, THAT would be front-page news. Better still, no one could ever positively refute the story.


Nikki Major profile image

Nikki Major 4 years ago

Everything that is happening to man here on earth is not God's fault sweetheart here's why: I don't know if your husband has ever explained the story of Adam and Eve. They are the ones to blame Here's what happened. When God placed adam and eve in the garden of eden, there were two trees there....The tree of knowledge and the tree of good and evil. God. gave one simple command to adam and eve. That command was not to eat of the tree of knowledge. They could eat of anything but that tree. God told them the day they eat of that tree, they would surely die.

Now, the death that God was talking about was spiritual and not physical. When adam and Eve ate of the tree...all connection with God was lost....God cursed man to work all the days of his life. He cursed woman to endure labor and the satan became cursed to eat dust the rest of his life. Adam and Eve represents the "fall of man into sin". This is why Jesus had to sin his son to die for us. We needed saving from ourselves and from sin. Before the fall of man...God had us living an abundant and peaceful life. We could still be in a state of bliss right here on earth had it not been for the first man and woman on earth. After the fall of man...we've been cursed to grow old and sick. Shortly after their fall...the first murder took place between their sons cain and abel. Man is responsible for what's going on here on earth, not God..Man's connection to God was lost thousands of years ago. That's why he sent his son to die for our sins. He still loves us. God has given all power to his son. That's why when we pray for his protection, although God the father and son are one, we can only reach the father by praying to the son...so christians have to realize first, that it's the son that intercedes for us. The world can get. better provided that we know who to pray to. That's his son Jesus christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man can come to the father unless he come through the son"

so man is responsible for the curse of sin, hatred and Murder. He gave man a choice a long time ago as to which way he wanted to live. We were in paradise many years ago. Now...it's gonna take the holyghost to get us back to our rightful place with God. It's not that God allows these things. Adam and Eve brought this down on man. But there is good news...we can get our connection back to God through his son Jesus. The one that intercedes for us. if you want the crime to go down sweetheart...let us pray to Jesus Christ. The one whom all power was given. Jesus loves you and i do too. God Bless.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Nikki thank you for your time to comment.I understand that is what you believe but let me ask you this. As a mother I could never imagine saying to my child "I will forever refuse to protect you because you ate the cookies from the cookie jar" Could you imagine what the world would be like if everytime a child is told to do something and they didn't do it the parents just gave up on them? In my opinion the story of Adam and Eve is just that. On top of that could you imagine the pain the children would feel if their parents did this to them. How is God a loving God if he hands out forever punishments over eating of the wrong tree? As a mother I do not understand.


puella 4 years ago

Peeples

only that Eve was not a kid and it was not about some cookies; for validity every analysis needs to put all relevant factors in context; when the Bible says that Matusalen lived 800 years, and we know that not so far ago, the life expectancy was about 60, then we must, as analysts draw the valid conclusion that those "800 years" meant that the guy lived a long life... It's a symbol, and as such, subject to interpretations., but valid interpretations. The Bible, specially the Old Testament, has this kind of expressions just because it was written for those days and not for the age of the information wired and extremely abundant; and you know, a decade can mean a lot of changes in vocabulary meanings and expressions, imagine thousands of years and upon translations!!!

Just see the meanings/relevancy thru the right window or screen or mirror (this is personal but interpretation(s) can be aided by scholars, theologists, or reading thru it several times); but we cannot interpret literally any book, we first study the author and his/her context to better figure what to interpret more closer to the real message...

To interpret means to search what's behind the letters and never means to believe exactly as it is written; just see how every possible author has many interpretations about the meaning of a particular story or phrase; that's why there are so different schools or religions, each "whit the truths based on the right interpretation"

The Bible is not the guide/base of all religions yet one can see that there are different interpretations of religions not Bible-based...it's a matter of inspiration or so by their respective founders and their respctive followers however. Budhism was born in a place but that place of origin is not the one that ptactices it in its purest form; it was adopted widely in one area of the planet, yet it has 'schools' with its monks and masters to whom believers follow; it's a most interesting and exemplary way to teach about what motivates one to believe and practice and in Budhism, body exertion and almost punishment, means body purification, needed before talk to God or whatever they can name the supreme or the Void...

In man-made justice, ignorance of laws still does not preclude the punishment, anyway; for cookies? I don't know...it's trivial

everything to be more realistically understood and interpreted needs a frame of analysis or a context; and any hypothesis or theory needs in order to be worth the while tom in invest time and experimentation to prove needs to be something that will be of useful applications to a big chunk: this means, in the scientific method, that any hypothesis after proofs, will be a "theory" only if it can be applied universally, universally here is quite a lot of people from different backgrounds and ethnias and social customs etc; and this theory must, at least, enumerate possible exceptions or also called, particular cases/situations.

Now if one disregard the Bible because of incongruencies, and if one disregards the interpretations of the Bibles because of reasons that are personally interpreted, the seek for greater truths is worth the while but needs more tha a breakfast to achieve it...it's achievable yet

Cheers

Context cannot be substitutes for anything else.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

puella, I think I can get most of what you are trying to say.

Broadly speaking, I feel that much of what commentators say here in these Hubs says more about the commentator than about anything "spiritual" or "religious." We get a window into their psyche, their needs and objectives.

Several we have seen in other Hubs have displayed very real psychological imbalance. The arguments rarely recognise this. The conversation usually descends into bickering and disrespectful personality bashing. It's got nothing to do with whether a god exists, or the bible is true, or who's going to end up in hell (my preference, to be quite honest, wink wink).


puella 4 years ago

Hi ;);) jonnycomelately,

thanks for the uplifting words that you say about understanding what

I try to say ;) When I feel that I have something to say about X point, usually the first thing in my mind is the big picture, and so, off I go to "write", but as, I am sure it happens to any older person who has lived and seen and, well you know, I start collecting from my "hard drive always in ddr form ;) and everything related, even indirectly, I want to add/share for the only purpose to give as many factors as possible, that in any circumstance in life, may and will (remember Murphy's laws?) appear and leave some unwanted distractions in our purposes in life. And that's where I become hard to understand and almost always, messy, and the purpose get's lost ;);) So sorry...

Too much info and sometimes punctuation errors will make it harder to grasp; however, if someone does not understand it, just skip it or ignore it, but never ever call names and show anger

In the internet there is a "netiquette"; using capital letters means 'yelling'...and someone with so much trajectory in business and stuff should know it, otherwise, there are suspicious exaggerations if I may borrow the term ;);)

Thanks again... we will keep up... Cheers.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Fine - so you think it's more about caring for what "the other person thinks, believes" rather than being selfish about what "I" believe?

Maybe the christian attitude needs to be less selfish?

Is the reluctance on the part of the religious person to entertain different points of view a very selfish perspective?


puella 4 years ago

Hi jonnycomelately :)

Answering you, I will refer you, for a/my context, to please read at: aynrandlexicon.com about the following terms and definitions: ultimate value, truth, falsehood, existence, faith, selfishness, altruism, spite, cooperation, duty, moral judgment, science, character, virtue, ethics, charity, from a non-believer point of view; also please read/refer to the Catholic teachings (most the same as Anglicans perhaps, about the the Graces (begotten at Baptism ceremony (Faith, Hope and Charity), the list and meaning of the seven mortal sins and its/the opposing list of moral virtues, and of the other four moral virtues that complement the whole pack of virtues (understanding as moral excellency achieved by a life lived based on freely chosen principles or, as defined in ayrandlexicon.com “unbreached rationality: not defined by intelligence but by the full relentless use of our mind and not to the extent of knowledge but the acceptance of reason as an absolute” Both approaches do converge like a mathematical series or like parallel lines (in the infinite).

I believe in science’s principle of action-reaction: it’s natural, it happens every day every time to every one; I believe and practice the principle that whatever we do or say has the potential to generate unforeseen reactions, no matter the original intention; I believe and practice, most of the times, to not be judgmental, basically, because when I have been I have regretted it; when I regret I will always give the first step to fix it, even when the other may have not known about my judgment (this has had a certain environment: a coworker at the professional level, and within marriage: in both circumstances, I was not the original sinner” but a corollary, however, I admitted, like in the Abba group song, “the winner takes it all”); I strongly believe in life’s arithmetical flowing in terms of givings and misgivings (like in what’s goes around comes around” as a ‘natural law}; I believe of myself to be responsible; maybe I should be more affectionate (I have been told by people who loves me dearly that I am too intolerant on certain issues and sometimes I seem to be too detached when pointing out), perhaps, but whoever knows me maybe won’t love at first sight ? but will in time trust me and know I am reliable, stable, rocky, persistent, forgiving, recursive, too much mind of my own, etc. I have not that certainty the other way around.

Back to you: it will depend on the ‘context’ where you are putting the “selfish” quality and its definition: I would think that you are incorporating the moral extension; if so, of course, one will have to never ever be selfish at all; my interests are not to determine other’s misery. Period. The selfishness means doing things to harm for the sake of oneself. My answer is a big “not of course not”.

However, it does not mean that, at the abstraction level and for the purpose of debating, one has to negate oneself to “please” (could have several sources of weaknesses) particular needs when at bright light we perceive (fallibly though perhaps) some sort of imposition; imposition deviates natural courses. If you are talking about this hub, I’d say that based on the input of many, the subject itself of belief/faith/God was misled by a few, and was not fed back by the many in an articulated way or in a reasonable way or in a convincing way (and this has me in first row). Whoever will believe for what we write here??? How can you approach a ‘debate’ with prejudgment (prejudice) based on misconceptions derived from the main book? How about the adjectives emitted to the God some believe in? That will also qualify to selfish words… and, unfortunately, it shouldn’t but it will deviate, as a reaction and because of our nature, the purpose of the interchange and the end-result. No, we must do our own homework before spitting words to regret later. It’s like the blaming game in a couple not used, each, to see inner areas and if one or both do, still being afraid to share unexpected findings with the couple. This is being ambivalent and not-trustworthy and it will reduce the marriage or union to failure in time: truth needs room and will find it and will be remorseless and will be remedyless.

Christians attitude less selfish: actually, maturely speaking, all of us need to be less selfish: it’s a precondition to equality, regardless. Now if non-Xtians, based on their perhaps scant knowledge of the Xtian belief itself, will pretend to speak harshly and disrespectfully and non-adept-to the core beliefs, and the be surprised and/or expect that Xtians do not react pretty much in the same tone, and further, this reaction by the Xtina part is found to be a contradiction of faith, there you may be right but I am sure that false expectations are also bad; again, selfishness is the intention to harm others when pretending/pursuing our own interests. How can a Xtian or non- harm others by getting upset about an abstract notion/concept? Like some say, both groups waste the fuel and get no potency in the engine.

No man lives isolated. We are to be civilized as much as possible; but we are not to convert in a tragedy that certain Xtians are narrow-minded; it usually will show up with the like-narrow-minded non-Xtians, don’t you think? And both are just getting off the right avenue and will not lead but to more differences. Blaming one group or the other will not do the trick.

Reluctance from the Xtian: you mean like “disdain?” or like “willingless”? I really would answer like this: “if and when in a debate” soulfully seeking a real convergence/congruence/enrichment, the participants will behave differently than in the “if and when” a debate is degraded by non-civilized expressions and frank insults and demeaning and other suspect odors (if again, I may borrow the phrase?… The what is the purpose of saying that the Xtian is reluctant? Just because he is not supposed to? By his/her admission of faith? Yes, I agree. It’s not supposed to, so in the future, this Xtian will not behave this and that if “repent” but what abou a good advise to the others? I do not like the blame game; it’s vicious and it will not be conductive.

But I’d have to admit to this: not all Xtians behave like in a ‘conquering’ oddisey; most of us will live fine knowing that our best friend is a non-believer and enjoy all of the wisdom and wit and loyalty and great moral values indeed (I have several friends and I feel lucky); and even in the same family, there are what Xtians who have a personal relative or family out of it and live waiting for the return of the “prodigal son” so to speak. Discrepancies in speech show up when a falsity of speech is detected and a paranoia of being preached in one way or the other surfaces Then it’s late to come back to senses. Emotions clouds have taken care of the original “good” intentions of a debate. To me, humility is a precondition and humility does not mean to back down our belief and does not mean to pretend the others will/must abandon theirs; arrogance is a big obstacle to natural reactions and genuine opinions. I am sensitive to arrogance and I personally do not think I have to deal with it. Unfortunately, in matters of faith there are little in-betweens… mostly because of an ignorant distrust of each other and/or an intended outcome not declared but perceived.


puella 4 years ago

jonnycomelately,

what you just asked me about intolerance, and arrogance, and selfishness, how or what did or do you now think of the post of f_ruz of some 6 days ago, where he clearly bashes on the confused-minds, weak and manipulable, all sort of lies and absurdities of or from believers, because he knows (although no proofs mentioned), thanks to his ability to reason and his powerful mind (none of those 2 are proofs to me), he knows that there is or there has never ever been gods or the likes, and that faith is an excuse to unfulfil our humanly duties???

His words left no room for suggestions, had an authoritarian tone, and stereotyped believers as simpletons. If that is not intolerance, reluctance, selfishness and arrogance, then what is?

In the name of the truth??? I wonder what motivated your questions to me and why not to him, even as the matter of style at least. I am curious just because I believe in the democracy of homogeinity... ;)

And by the way, my belated answer to f_ruz and his big bang is:

I return the ball of the unexplained to f_ruz field in exactly the same terms that he, ungraciously sent it to the believers, and with the following quote;

"Once you eliminate the impossible whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth" Holmes to his friend Watson,, just in case ;);) as written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, last week ;););)


lone77star profile image

lone77star 4 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

My Thoughts (1 of 2):

Good questions and very thought provoking!

I applaud you for trying your best to understand. Hopefully, you will remain humble enough to gain quiet reflection on these ideas. When I wrote my 3D astronomy software, I had gone through several periods of bewilderment attempting to understand matrix math. I didn't force it. I let the questions sit there for days and weeks. Then one morning, I woke up with an epiphany. Hopefully, these ideas will help you gain your own epiphany.

In any investigation, starting out with fixed ideas tends to block discovery. For instance, your idea that religion in society as a whole is representative of the source, and thus must be cleaned up before the core or source of religion can be viewed as valuable. (I hope I haven't butchered your understanding, but this is what I surmise from your answer to a question on evolution and religion.) Just because many Christians are violent or insensitive does not mean that Christ has no value.

If I understand your viewpoint, then it seems that you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Certainly, that's an oversimplification, but sometimes such simplifications can be helpful in understanding concepts and relationships.

I don't have perfect answers. I'm still learning. But perhaps these can help expand the playing field of thought a bit.

1) God can control everything, but He decided not to. How boring to play both sides of a chess game. I'm not certain His motivation is similar, but it opens up the topic to more possibilities.

Perhaps a more potent concept is one of rescuing children who have willfully wandered away. God wants His children back and they are not Homo sapiens. So many non-believers (and too many believers) think that they are their human body. Thus, they miss the point of it all.

Our rescue must be decided by self. God cannot decide for us, otherwise we have no free will; God would be playing all viewpoints (boring).

2-4) So many non-believers and believers alike think that they are their bodies. This is so important to understanding: we are not our bodies.

Let's use an analogy: If your child is in an automobile accident, do you go to the car junk yard or go directly to the hospital? Naturally, you go to the hospital. The car is meaningless. No one would mourn the car.

God's children were created in His image and likeness, and God is not Homo sapiens.

We wear these bodies much as humans wear a cloak. We drive these "vehicles" (bodies) much as our bodies drive cars.

We are trapped in ego and must let go completely in order to allow rescue, but even most (all?) Christians cling to ego. Even I do, regrettably. It's tough to let go of something that pretends to be me. It's tough to let die that which seems in many ways to be me.

Many Christians do not believe in reincarnation, largely because their interpretation is compatible with long-held dogma. But it wasn't always that way. Jesus talked of reincarnation and so did his disciples. The true self is not the body, but has had many bodies.

Cont'd...


lone77star profile image

lone77star 4 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

My Thoughts (2 of 2):

Despite the fact that the body is not as important as we would be led to believe, we should still have compassion. Suffering may serve a purpose, but allowing others to suffer is not good. It's not up to us to decide who suffers.

If God's purpose is to get us out of our "cars" (bodies) and to lose our attachments to them, then what happens to our own car (body) is of less importance. And yet, we should cultivate care for the "cars" of others. By our compassion, we start to lose our own attachments. And that holds profound value.

5-6) Your #6 makes me question your desire to understand any of this, especially #5. I don't know the basis for your beliefs, so I can only offer what seems logical from my own experiences. But I suspect that some humility and quiet reflection may be required if you sincerely want to understand. Without that, you may as well attempt to understand differential calculus without an understanding of basic math. Such is similarly impossible.

You say, "All 'Miracles' can be explained with rational thoughts," in #5, but contradict yourself in #6 by puzzling over the impossibility of biblical miracles.

Zombies are fiction; those raised from the dead by Jesus and disciples were as alive as you or I.

Miracles bend or break the laws of physical reality, because they tap into the source code behind those laws -- creation itself. Remember, we were created in His image, and He is not Homo sapiens. In fact, he is not any "thing." He is devoid of space-time and energy-mass.

The human body, or even the ego, cannot perform miracles because they are cogs in the machine of physical reality. They must obey the laws of the universe. But a child of God is superior to those laws. Remember, this is not your mind, your ego or your body. This is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost -- the true self, within, which must be awakened.

In my half-century study of science, I can think of no "scientific" way to explain the miracles I've experienced. But let's take a simple one from the Bible, like Jesus and Peter walking on water together. Or Jesus calming the storm after he boarded their boat. A rock or Homo sapiens body cannot do such things, but a child of God can.

I analyze one of the miracles I experienced in one of my hubs -- Anatomy of a Miracle.

7) There is only one source of the entire physical universe, but even in Genesis, God refers to Himself in the plural ("our image"). Could the unit also be a plurality? Jesus refers to himself as "one with God." But he also reminded his enemies that it was written, "ye are gods." As children of God, we would thus be baby gods. But a warning: this is not the body or the ego. Ego would so want to be powerful and like a god, but unlike Pinocchio will never become a real "boy" (child of God).

Why this one God? Zeus lived on Mt. Olympus, according to Greek myth. God lives everywhere and nowhere. He is superior to the entire universe with its countless billions of galaxies, each with their many billions of stars.

From my own research, it may prove to be that Zeus-Poseidon represented the patriarchal beginnings of Atlantis, while Athena-Aphrodite represented the matriarchal endings of Atlantis. So many of the agglutinative language speaking cultures that may be derived from Atlantis were either matriarchal or highly-egalitarian. The gods, here, would thus be a people or empire, remembered through the mists of a primitive lack of vocabulary.

The word God or god has many scopes. And the unbeliever continues to assume that the believer chose the one of greatest scope (entire universe). But it was the other way around: God chose us, because these bodies held his precious, non-physical children.

8) Natural disasters have nothing to do with "controlling" or "spite." Again, you're fixating on the bodies. His children are unharmed by what happens to their bodies.

9) We all mourn the loss of a child, but the child of God is not flesh and blood. Flesh is merely the vessel. As it says in Genesis 6:3, Man is also flesh. If he is also flesh, then he is something else, too. That other thing is the real child of God.

10) Belief and faith are frequently confused. They are not the same thing. With belief you remain in the realm of continuity along a relative scale of dichotomies from strong belief or confidence to disbelief or doubt. Faith is beyond this scale. Faith is pure confidence at cause (create); belief is relative confidence at effect (perception).

When Peter stepped out of his storm-tossed boat onto the unsettled Sea of Galilee, in that moment he lost all "reason" and all fear. He touched on that perfect state of confidence beyond the mortal "belief." This was the state of creation (not perception). This is the state where the physical laws of reality are broken or made. This is where a person is "one with God."

At true "faith" one is no longer mortal, vulnerable and potentially victim. This is where turning the other cheek is possible. This is where forgiveness works and does so easily -- in fact, effortlessly.

All of your questions focus on the body and attachments to the body. You will not achieve understanding if you persist in this.

The love of God is for His children embedded within these physical shells.

Sometimes, I look into the eyes of an infant and see an ancient soul, and for a moment the infant wakes up and that ancient soul stirs from within. One day at a restaurant on Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, I held the gaze of an infant less than a year old for nearly a full minute. The gaze that returned mine was steady and full of calm awareness. Perhaps that entity is close to completing their quest to let go of ego and physicality. For them, the rescue may be nearly complete.


lone77star profile image

lone77star 4 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

@peeples, in your most recent, prior comment, you raised an important question about Adam and Eve.

Too many take the Bible literally, but miss the meaning.

First, one needs to ask: was the Garden literally a physical place? Were the physical descriptions of Adam and Eve literally accurate, or were they metaphorical?

Perhaps this can help: In Genesis 2, God warns Adam that if he eats of the forbidden tree, he will surely die on that day. But what happens? Both Adam and Eve are escorted out of the Garden and Adam lives to the ripe old age of 930. So, what did it mean that he would die on that day?

Both Adam and Eve died spiritually, not physically. So, perhaps the Garden was not a physical place. In fact, some Jewish scholars have talked of Eden as the Garden of Heaven -- a non-physical or spiritual place.

And what was the tree? It was described as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And both ate the fruit of this tree (not an apple!).

Fruit can also be a word for product or end result -- like the fruits of one's labors.

So, if the Garden was not physical, then the tree was not physical, either. Neither was the fruit. So, what kind of fruit? Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Good and Evil are two sides of a dichotomy. Human existence is full of dichotomies -- good-evil, right-wrong, compassion-indifference, generous-selfish, wisdom-stupidity and many more. Each of these dichotomies is along a scale of continuity, and continuity is the fabric of physical reality. I suspect that all of these dichotomies, combined, are the "blood and bone" of ego.

When someone is told they are wrong, ego is usually bruised. When someone is told that they are good, the pride in ego swells. When the troubles of the world seem too great, ego gets rowdy and considers suicide. Everything to do with ego is "self-centered." This is the source of all evil. Ego is the blindness of spirit that depends on the instrumentalities of physical (human) sight. Ego is tied to the body and to physical reality. With ego, the true self (immortal child of God) is lost in the long sleep ("death") of the forbidden fruit.

Adam and Eve banished themselves from the Garden by wallowing in the dichotomies of physical reality. They became attached to these things and came to view them as more important than God, the Father. It was their decision.

Genesis 5:2 tells us that Adam is both male and female and plural. Here, "Adam" means all of humanity. And the outrageous ages of the early patriarchs are merely symbolic for the ages of tribes (not individuals). Thus, the Methuselah tribe lived 969 units of time long. Other clues in Genesis tell us how long those units were.


puella 4 years ago

lone77star,

Let me say with double exclamations signs, that I just love your approach to both, sharing/extending a kind , warm, and still solid (within a realm full-to the physical eye- of reasons why not to see, perhaps) engaging invitational reasoning to find/open/defrost a way to God thru, at least, belief and with God’s inspiration, perhaps to feel the angelical experience of practicing a faith knowing of the mutual positive reinforcing that comes with true acceptance (the need to belong is described as one of the higher needs in human life).

I took the liberty to select what I find is substantial to ‘encourage/decide’ a disposition to seek further in this particular track of believe and ergo, perhaps, practice a faith.

The popular saying of “all roads lead to Rome” may or may not be of significance, but in Alice in Wonderland, the answer of the cat to Alice’s question of which way she should go to exit the forest, is meaningful and enlightening: the cat answers “it depends, pretty much, on where you want to go” and when Alice answers “I do not care much where to” the cat says “then any way will do”

I quote you from your posts of last night as follows:

“In any investigation, starting out with fixed ideas tends to block discovery.”

It is equivalent to a good extent what I have tried to say, only that I am a clumsy/messy writer; I shared here the Zen’s “story: “the cup of tea” which in a more metaphorical was implies the same notion of prejudice –fixed ideas, fears, traumas- as an obstacle to any learning.

“we should still have compassion.”

Can’t be more agreeing. Compassion is a precondition to most virtues; thru charity (compassion and love in Jesus and thru Jesus to our bros and sis) we reinforce our faith and hope.

“some humility and quiet reflection may be required if you sincerely want to understand. Without that, you may as well attempt to understand differential calculus without an understanding of basic math. Such is similarly impossible.”

Even in other pursuits, where we ‘feel’ solid to engage (like a job, a marriage, raising kids, treating/sharing knowledge), with humility it sails smoothly. With/towards God, we definitely need to declare ourselves with limited abilities and we are open to His light and wisdom and spirit. If at the human level we reject arrogance, God not only will reject it (hence us) but will make it harder (as it’s written clearly in Ecclesiastes).

“Miracles bend or break the laws of physical reality, because they tap into the source code behind those laws -- creation itself.”

Some need the ‘miracles’ to believe (or to reinforce believing)…this way to believe is less “perfect” to the eyes of God as we kind of “forced” Him to a manifestation of His power… The other way around is because we believe we can see more clearly thru the clouds God’s miracles... When I say “see” it means to experience the feeling, perception, energy, effect, traces, wonders in nature, and unexplainable reasons to a premonition, that surround us and that we become aware or we need to be in a state of awareness to be able to ‘see’ the miracles which happen with or without us asking for them. And this does not mean to be in a state of bliss (so much insulting/disrespectful as presented by some here in this hub and which has been attributed to ignorance/laziness/simpleton low degree of knowledge and reasoning. Virtue does not depend on the extent of knowledge or of intelligence. We build our moral character only thru hard endeavor to live consonantly by our adopted principles, that is virtue and faith in some future that gives meaning, and not the other way around, regardless of faith but in the belief that we need to be human and as humans life must have a meaning and meaning is to perform according to our values because of and, and sometimes, in spite of, this last described as authenticity: true to values far from the hypocritical Pharisee (called by Jesus white graves full of rotting) and worms). I quote from aynrandlexicon.com “Value” is that which one acts to gain and keep, “virtue” is the action by which one gains and keeps it”

You say and I quote,

“The human body, or even the ego, cannot perform miracles because they are cogs in the machine of physical reality. They must obey the laws of the universe. But a child of God is superior to those laws. Remember, this is not your mind, your ego or your body. This is the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost -- the true self, within, which must be awakened.”

“His children are unharmed by what happens to their bodies.”

Yes, yet we are/keep attached to the physical, we even keep clothes/objects of the departed, etc . Even the Catholic Church has an evasive way to not justify cremation: because on the final judgment day, all will resurrect and get back to their bodies, and their bodies will be as neat or not depending how we respected it in life as the true and living temple of the Holy Spirit; which in turn is related again to a moral character while living the temporary journey of life.

“Belief and faith are frequently confused. They are not the same thing”

“When Peter stepped out of his storm-tossed boat onto the unsettled Sea of Galilee, in that moment he lost all "reason" and all fear. He touched on that perfect state of confidence beyond the mortal "belief." This was the state of creation (not perception). This is the state where the physical laws of reality are broken or made. This is where a person is "one with God."

“At true "faith" one is no longer mortal, vulnerable and potentially victim. This is where turning the other cheek is possible. This is where forgiveness works and does so easily -- in fact, effortlessly.”

I remind this:

The very same Peter, the rock where Jesus founded His Church, fearing for his life, three times, when Jesus was apprehended (at Gethsemane) Peter denied being one of Jesus disciples or followers!!! The very same Peter that told Jesus “Verily you are God’s son and the Messiah”. This symbolism only corroborates that even when we can believe, we do that as humans, and as humans we tend to break down when facing life’s trials, only thru faith we build up and overcome. This passage also corroborates that some interpretations of different Christian sects/religions maybe (mind my word, maybe) wrong, because not just by saying/claiming “Lord I believe in You, the gates of heavens or salvation is granted” In other words, this will emphasize the moral duty to live by the principles adopted thru faith and hence guarantee authenticity.

“Too many take the Bible literally, but miss the meaning.”

There lies the source of different religions, especially when mixing faith/creed with the worldly part or structure/organization of the physical church, as representing Jesus body on earth,

“At true "faith" one is no longer mortal, vulnerable and potentially victim. This is where turning the other cheek is possible. This is where forgiveness works and does so easily -- in fact, effortlessly.”

And what a rapture this experience can be! Only that we usually get back to the “normal” track of failure to regret when it should be regret to failure.

Many thanks for this Saturday of rejoice thru your words. Cheers...


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Lone77 Thank you for the time you took to comment. Give me some time to think about it all and reread it (probably several times) and I will get back to you.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Ok it will eat at me half the night if I don't at least cover one thing. You spoke of how people take the bible literally but yet miss the meaning. My first thought on that is, when dealing with a book that is suppose to be the words of God, how else are people to take it. (Now this is going to sound horrible and rude but please try to understand my process on this.) People for the most part aren't very smart. So handing a bible to the average person and expecting them to see deeper into it is like handing a college math book to a 2nd grader. The chance of them fulling grasping the concept is slim. Now with that being said I understand that church is suppose to help guide people to better conclusions, however look around at the churches. They build million dollar buildings instead of erecting a steel buiding for half the price. They feed the poor and feel as if that justifies the millions of dollars they spent. Now this is just one example of how churches can be. These are the people trusted to teach God's word. Yet in my neighbor state there are churches that are making the news because of preachers calling gays faggots. So my point to this is while a few may be able to understand what the bible says most aren't. Also many who can understand it think that it is their job to go out and bash people based on its words. So while I respect that you feel you understand the bible I have to ask a final question before I leave HP for the night. Do you think that the majority of Christians are truly capable of understanding the bible and therefore capable of acting in the Christ way? I will be back tomorrow to discuss the rest.

@puella when are you going to write a hub so that I can follow you? I enjoy reading your writings even when I have to struggle to read parts. I am glad you found this hub!


puella 4 years ago

peeples,

When am I writing my own hub? Hmm let me see to that; I’m working on it and it won’t be about religion or faith though ;)

Regarding your last post, I am confused. Now I am the one who does not understand you. Some here have presented you excellent ideas and justifications of those ideas. So you have collected good intentions, good thoughts, good recommendations, good guidance, here.

The subjects of humanities, like psychology, anthropology, sociology, history, etc. are classified in the world of knowledge as social sciences, in a way to differentiate their field from what is called “exact sciences” of which math is the champion. This implies that religion is a subject in the inexact sciences, to be more specific. Then you figure…

Therefore, I feel that we are like in a circling permanently on the very same your-opening-statements-answers-rejections-answers-and so forth and soon. So we need more definitions and newer. We need to refine to smaller details and since it is your hub, you have to do it yourself; we are “followers” so to speak.

The real thing is, if you “need” to believe you will if and only if you do your homework; I know plenty of people happy as non-believers. Happiness maybe reached whether you are a believer or not, because what makes us happy is to believe in oneself, to set a meaning for our life, to be true to yourself, to grow in goodness, kindness, compassion, hard work, enjoying the small things, sleep well, keeping the necessary for good health, think of others, be grateful, share, be generous, help others by listening and by acting in their favor, moral character by adopting principles and live by then. If others seem happier in a church and you feel you need to be or feel like them, then seek and you will find (Jesus dixit).


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Puella I want to start by saying that I believe Lone77 found this hub based on a religious question in the answers section. So my statement to him in part had to do with the conversation at that question. The question there was basicly "With social trends the way they are do Christians need to worry" What the question itself seemed to imply was that Christians were not part of the social trends which to be honest slighlty annoyed me. In my opinion Christians as a whole seem to contribute a majority of the issues at least here in USA since 75% of people here claim to be Christian. Also in his first paragraph he mentioned what he thought was my view, which he gathered based on my answer to said question.

Now with that said as for my circling permanetly, May I ask do you think I wrote this hub to be converted? Or do you think I wrote it to get more clarity on the views? I personally do not "need" to believe. I do however have to get a grasp on what others Christians believe so that I can understand the one and only thing about my husband that I just don't get. I have stated several times that I won't be believing in God. It just isn't in me. I am quite happy as a non believer. BUT everything in my life has been justified by one person or another by using religion. After everything I have gone through I have moments where I seriously struggle because I do feel like Christians seem blind to real world issues many simply using "It's God's plan" or "We weren't meant to understand his ways" as justifications for the world's wrong. I am honest enough to admit that it bothers me when otherwise rational people believe in something such as God. However instead of trying to convert I try to understand the thought process behind the belief. Now if at any time you are feeling as if it is a pointless circling, then all due respect but you are free to leave. Lone77 is new to the conversation and may not even write anymore for all I know, but there will be another person at some point who will not read through all 130 somthing comments which will require me to comment in a similar way than I already have. So you will have some things repeated. I feel as if your comment puella was implying that I either need to stop commenting or accept the comments given without disagreeing. Please correct me if I am wrong about that but as you said it is my hub and I accept all of the comments here, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.


puella 4 years ago

peeples,

we are talking...

Yes, I misunderstood your goals, and that should place me in the sorry side. I think that some others here may have misunderstood similarly; however, that is the end result for some.

My confusion of purposes about your hub grew with some, to me, contradictions to proved facts and so, I pretended to 'clarify', in my ignorance of the actual experiment you were running,...

If I am not wrong, then, you are admitting in this last post, that you define yourself as non-believer, you are happy with it, and it's not "the" discussion you are/were into. Am I right in these conclusions?

I do not agree, however, with the style that comes together with the blaming games of some: I think that introducing "blaming" is a distraction either for lack of insight or for indifference or for ego-preservation None of these make a solid contribution to build.

I always understood (or I should say misunderstood) that we were interchanging/exploring about values, facts of truth, possibilities, and the sort, and not about what human nature in believers or not, is capable of showing and doing and creating so much misery and pain and crimes that one can's ascertain the reasons behind, and therefore, such heinous behaviours, cancell/deny/reject/disproves, the facts of truths, possibilities, values, of beliefs and faith and religions.

Each to its field, like Jesus told the guy who felt like not paying the taxes because it was for a worldly purpose: "To Ceasar what's Ceasar's and to God, what's God's" This to me, entails a different approach... and much more experts than doctors of the faith, of the law, of health, of economics, etc.

When I just said that I feel we are circling and that newer definitions were needed, just that, proves that I am/feel off beat in doing more towards this interchange in face of the never-reaching end, not even by approximation, misunderstood goals... No wonder: the "goals" were not such, to begin with.

If you read more carefully what I wrote in my prior one, you will not have doubts that I did not mean for you to change your hub/subject, but exactly, because of my conceiving of a dead end decided by you, (and you just said about it) then we needed a re-definition of what's on the table, a narrowing-down/simplification on the real 'core' of your formulations; and I said clearly that none of the rest but you were entitled to do this, because, like you just reminded me, you decide what's posted or not. I do not have any, absolutely any, problem with who is the moderator here or the 'owner' ;);) but as I understand it, such 'owner' would to read all and answer accordingly.

Nothing to worry about peeples, as I understand at this point, all in this post of mine acknowledges a by-product of this open but limited resource, in certain topics, at least, to writing back and forth but without giving the chance of reaching a closure of each relevant factor.

With the time restrictions of our lives (as you several times acknowledged it too) and with so many posts, one loses 'sight'.

If I understand you correctly, you just said, that the hub may "sit" in waiting for newer people to post about your formulations? Does this mean that, over and over, this "mechanics of interchange" will be kept up? if true, then, again, I feel in a dead-end. Even when there could be more to say, it is my opinion that almost all relevant has been said. Then, we are not going to get a rounding-up (also called summary)? ever?

See? that's perhaps good to know before I try a hub of mine; maybe due to my school formation, I am used to start every, when possible, discussion (not fight) with the exploration to feasibility, gather the facts about possibilities (technicalities, monies, sustainability, resources -of a one-time nature and of permanent nature- etc), gather the info about need for it and in what degree (similar to market-share non-served yet), facts about designs, and the where and the how's, and then run a simulation, where possible, to dumy-data test, etc..

In other words, a project, any project, must have a need, provable feasibility/possibility, existing or gettable resources, in oder to be 'completed' or, what I call closure. This is not similar to daydreaming.

Thanks for taking the time to inform me really. And please, I neve meant or dreamed that you have to agree with me ;) Of course not!


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

You seem to think that an educated conversation is not capable of happening without closure. While I somewhat agree there really is no closure to the conversation of religion. This is the internet after all where people can come and go as they choose. Each party entering the conversation has a different view. This gives everyone following the discussion a chance to learn of what others feel, think, and understand of their own beliefs. I find that very valuable. People coming and going for the purpose of listening to others then stating the parts they understand and the parts they don't or disagree with. To me that is the part of the world that is missing. I believe we are too quick to feel we can say no more. With learning of other's beliefs we will always have something new to add. I guess maybe I am a dreamer to think that it is possible for people to come and go sharing their information, opinions, and disagreements, however unlike a school project, this post will be on the internet for years to come. It really can never come to an end. If it did I may as well delete it.


puella 4 years ago

peeples,

understood and agreed upon, and, in what I am concerned, hats off!

from the first to the last of what you just said, I find and love, in your just-in answer, wholesome, comprehensive, felt, believed, humble, humanly and, as such, telling/ illuminating; your insight here is much more soulful than any of mine; and perhaps, all along I have been talking about 'needs" and "do-the-homework" instead of "just listening to the ones I know nothing about and that not just by a coincidence I happened to encounter"

thanks indeed, and please allow me to bless you, from the bottom of my heart, and to tell you how sorry I am for not trying harder to get to your points so very much heartfelt...


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

puella,

I have been trying to digest what you have written over the past few posts. You write a lot! You gabble on a lot! You have hugely long sentences! Your posts commonly stretch over two screen-lengths! After I have read what you have written, I don't feel we are any further into understanding; certainly it's difficult to determine if you have addressed what peeples has written. The process has taken up a lot of my time!

So, Sir, if you could try to make your writing style a bit more intelligable, then I will try to continue reading your posts.

Until then, I don't have the time to address this Hub and that would sad for me.... peeples has my respect and I want to follow her.


David Ramses 4 years ago

JCL,

I have to agree. I read "The Will to Power" with more ease and understood it better. The first version of the King James Bible is easier to read. Puella, I think, has good intentions that would be better served in common English.


puella 4 years ago

David!!! there you are!

I have a 'cultural' gap here, but I thought I spoke English (my profs gave me flat A's all the times ;) but, I know, i know, that still could mean my profs wrote worse than I did/do ;)

Seriously now, I admit it...I make it more complicated of what it is or should be, and, nobody has time nor the compulsory task to do that; then why waste your time? please don't. I will seriously consider not to follow if that will help you guys to a better participation. I promise.

I also feel that I wasted a lot of time trying to identify who was first, the hen or the egg, here, only to realize, today or last night, that I (yes, me) was "raining" over the already wet soil ;) Now please do not tell me that you do not get this figure of speech! and do not tell me that you find it easier to understand the King's Bible...that would be an exaggeration.

David, re-read some of your own writings, then, analyze what was going in your head when you wrote them, you will see that, a bit more paused before answering, would have meant a better prose and/or more elevated...However, we understood you and still read you, and found you agreeable, in spite of.

Advice taken. Now, what means 'common English"... street talk? ;)

jonnycomelately, "gabble" as cackle or as using verbs carelessly?

Yes, I know I write long and that for the many, uninterestingly ;) especially if biased towards my "gabbled/cackled" opinions.

You, however, have to admit that this is not a subject, like peeples said today, of one answer or of straight answer or may be of no answer at all; again, I will let you figure the reason of this my answer...

I am sorry to offend your reading, really; I appreciate that you acknowledge that you have devoted time to what I write...thank you.

In addition to what both of you have sincerely said, I want to add that I have felt off beat too since the Genesis...

I have read almost all of the hubs; and very few attracted me or left an impression even when more graciously written than my own; the most attractive was lone77star; I resonated with his interpretations/meanings...

I know that you, jonny, have kept a very strict defferencial way to write and have never lost the grace; that was also an impression for me.

However, you forwarded me questions that, for me, were almost of an obvious answer and that left me puzzled. and at unease... I had my interpretations that did not mention for, say, only my concern reasons.

Why reading me will prevent you from following peeples? I do not see how, but I would never write again here in that case or if that is the case.

Why do you say that you respect peeples? is that you feel that I do not? because of my style?

I already acknowledged to peeples that I misunderstood her since Genesis; and that what I tried to say (even if unintelligibly) was in consonance with that error of capturing her "interests" and purpose of her hub. I do not think that disagreeing or finding contradictions, even if based in a misunderstanding or misinterpretation, means disrespect. It means just that, error of reading.

If I feel that I have any hint to share in this hub, I will try my best to write in a "better" order, but please, do not feel any obligation to do so.

Thanks for correcting me so.. shyly and blandly... Indeed. Gentlemanship is always welcome. especially coming from higher intellectual level.

As a last point: I waa born in a different culture and with a different language than English; I made it my purpose to read hundreds of books to master the language and I feel that I have more or less done it. This is no excuse for writing in a gabbling style but I am sure you will understand that many of my expressions have come structured (gramatically and contextually) from my native tongue and too, the 'style' of reverberance; again no excuse, by some context will help you understand the culprit.


Made profile image

Made 4 years ago from Finland

Finally I managed to scroll all the way down here to comment. I read some comments, but it would have taken me two days to read all of them. I'm exhausted.

Peeples, this is a great hub and it was courageous of you to write it. I agree with so many things. Some things in the Bible seem to good - things about how you should behave and be nice to people - or to put in other words: to have common sense. Some things in that old book, I can never understand and agree with. I guess I'm asking the same questions that you are.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Puella, you shouldn't quit posting, I still read and understand you, but I would be a liar if I said your writing style was easy to comprehend. Don't take insult. I am insulting myself by saying I am too stupid to understand some of it and request you write like a 6 year old for me:) lol I love you, Puella! I am just dumb:)


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

@ Godfrey - Thanks for your comments, but you don't seam to understand the limits to rationality or you would know by now that the heart only pumps blood through your body and hopefully enough into the human brain for us to know the difference in value between learning how to cope a lot better with reality and playing useless religious mind games.

Sure there is imagination. A lot what comes out of it is based on uneducated, irrational, emotional impulse ... and religion is not much help in advancing human logic, reason or rationality by introducing non-existing gods into the equation ... I don't see your point here!


puella 4 years ago

David!!!

Please believe me when I say (no, I am not going to sing that song ;( that if I left it will not be because of you; would you believe, instead, that if I stayed here, it would be because of you? How's that now?? I am being absolutely sincere here David; I asked you about 'common English" because I had never heard of it and usually common means, well that, common, ordinary, you know...etc. Then, I insisted a bit more on that definition and found out that you well referred/used it with respect to my non-proved yet "gabbled' style, but my inclination to add too much when less is better. Just the same when I cried laughing when your witty genious said that you agreed with me in everything that you did not understand (I laughed so loudly!) this time I laughed again about the reference to common English and my, now, infamous style. I understand you perfectly: you are genuine David, and also because we share beliefs and have faith, and by the way, as a point of information broadly shared, my heart does a lot more than living and performing like a pump. Some say that the mind sits in the heart ;) I coincide with Miguel de Unamuno, philosopher President of the University of Salamanca in 1900's, university oldest in Spain -1134- and the third oldest in Europe)

Unamuno wrote "the heart has reasons that reason does not know/understand". Is someone going to tell me that Unamuno did not use his brains? or that he was a simpleton? and blind-believer?

To prove or to disprove truths should not be the question when of faith we argue. To prove or to disprove will use our accepted (and who said that because accepted conventional formalisms were infallible? do not they change and go thru qualitative leaps? and reverse "accepted" conventions? and also 'truths'?).

Faith is rock-solid for the believer; this is personal, and so is meaning, and so is purpose, and happiness. And faith has been proved to move mountains: powerful huh? Mountains? are physical obstacles in life that we overcome. Hence, the saying.

I got to go, I have a full house, have been cooking all day and still need more for tomorrow...Family togetherness,another God's blessings!!!

See you in the mirror ;)


puella 4 years ago

In college one of my profs used to allow us a re-do of essays and projects for the first three weeks of the semester, without penalizing; this was to allow ourselves to grasp his concepts of relevance. This prof was fiercely criticized by other profs that we, as students, thought due to a lazy prof. not wanting the extra load of re-reading and re-writing corrections.

So I will re-do some of my ideas

* to ask God for proofs is not about faith but about an "insurance"

* there are two natures believing-then-faith: 1) by/for love and 2) for fear

Fear-based faith is the background of the need for an insurance and maybe those who practice this way are those intolerant, selfish, impossing, blind believers, and I find them playing in the same team than those arrogant atheists that to explain their faith (it is a faith after all not to believe in "this", but in "that") recur to demeaning the abilities of another human being to that of a simpleton/narrow-minded, blind to reality minds

* in the end, all may be single-lined to the real uncertainty of the after-life.; this will explain the obsession with the "insurance" for the just-in-case it's true.

*a few proverbs that may hint

1) if we don't know life, how can we know death?

2) those who do not read are not better off than those who cannot read

3) only three things are certain: birth, death, and change

4) every path has its puddle

5) at birth we cry; at death we see why

6) birth is the messenger of death

ttl


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

Question 11: If everything is God's will, then why does he punish people for doing his will. If that child was meant to be raped, why should the rapist go to hell? Wasn't he just carrying out God's will?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

@Made Thank you for taking the time to scroll all the way down here! I appreciate your comment!

@manningnd Well you got me thinking first thing in the morning. What Christians say is justice (hell) would not logically exist if there was a God because just as you said everything would be "God's will" Now that being said, I think I would feel sick over that concept if I was a believer. To be quite honest you just brought up something that neer even occured to me. You are correct though if one is to follow the concept of "God's Will" then one must figure that if it is God's will then surely someone be punished for doing it. Thank you for your comment and for bringing this to my attention. No clue how I thought about it all these years without thinking about it in the context you used.


puella 4 years ago

So earthly parents teach their kids lovingly, as much as they can possibly do; there are agreements for all possible envisioned circumstances ; there are rules for all involved, but there is the ruler and the ruled: parents and kids. If the kid betrays an agreement, is he fulfilling parents will? because the kid was given a space for his growth and some liberty to judge what was the "appropriate" but as in many cases in life ever since man lives socially, the kid will break the rules, then is still to be believed that the kid was/is doings as he was asked/allowed to? parents wanted that so therefore they cannot punish??? Where is our responsability as parents if one lets the kid on his/her own and therefore parents do not exist? :) due to the abnormalities of all this?

I find 'this' particular logic, well... too particular ;) sorry.

The explanation of God's will is not to be easily or lightly analyzed... I mean lightly. There is God's nature, there is human nature, there is God's will and there is free will and there is sin nature and the sinner nature... sorry about not agreeing with this top-down approach that may not find an equivalent bottom-up nor benchamrked. It's the systems approach to it, just as we see the human body and mind and possibly soul as a system, and when one of those is dysfunctional, then the whole pack ends up dysfunctional, biologically and psichologically and shrinkly speaking. A baby starts his/her personality treats as soon as conceived; the baby develops his professional inclinations while in the womb; and the baby inherits even depression treats while even in womb...Is that god's will? so if mom liked alcohol, was that God's will? if dad is workaholic, is that God's will? and God is being told "you made that bed now lay on it"? really?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Everything in this world follows a pattern and the only change to this rules is humans, we are the only living or non living things that seem to be confused as to what to do, why? I believe because we have fallen short of our standards with god and now we are being punished for it, I don't cry about that anymore because if I look at the human race around me (including myself) and I see what we accept as the "norm" then I don't think we can really complain too much, we are constantly killing each over in war and it has reached a point now that when America decides to wage a war in the name of peace we just become apathetic about it and do nothing, sex is rampant outside of wedlock or even just your partner despite the many emotional and physical problems it brings us for example it's one of the reasons that we are so distrusting and cynical about everything, nobody helps each over out anymore unless they are immediate family, we all think we are something special and forget that we are just another cog n the human race just think of all the superhero movies that have come out recently and it's because we love ourselves and want to be something we are not all the time.

Basically we are going against the grains of how we where created in the first place, 70 percent of soldiers do not shoot to kill in war because it is an unnatural thing to ask them to do, we are created to stick to one partner even though we don't usually realise ths until later on in life, it's a fact that we find more pleasure in giving than receiving like Jesus said but we don't.

Everything I have said I include myself in and it's because sin is hereditary, Adam sinned and then his sin was passed on t every single human being after him so we have no choice but to sin and if we didn't sin we would be proving Jesus a liar so although it's bad to sin its also inevitable and that's why Jesus took the burden of sin away from us by dying for our sins and that's why we should be grateful and at least try nt to sin?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Puella quite simply if you believe in things being "God's Will" (not saying you do but many believers do) then people can not pick and choose what is God's Will. Many have told me my childhood was "God's Will" or in God's plan. Following the logic these people use then God allowed and guided my father to abuse me for some greater purpose to happen later in life. I'm quite sure the people who said these things meant no harm or to imply anything negative however looking back I am suprised I didn't pose the same question as manningnd (who for the record I think is a Christian). It's like saying 2+2+4 here but then over here saying 2+2=6. One thing can not be God's will if the next thing isn't. So either there is no "God's Will" or he is horrible and forces people to do his bad works then punishes them for it. (from a believing side) If it was God's Will or Plan for my childhood to be what it was for some greater purpose then God planned for my dad to do those things. Which leads to the question could my father go to hell for something that God planned all along?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Danny I agree with much of what you said. I do believe our world has has gone down hill over all. However I must note that the majority of the world believes in some sort of God. I put a connection to those two things. I truley believe that the world would be better off if we just did good for the sake of it. If we chose to live in peace because common sense tells us that doing the opposite feels wrong.

Thank you for your comment!


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

I'll steal a line from Richard Jeni and say that I am a Christian like an elephant sitting in a tree is a bird. I believe in a creative force but not in Jewish mythology or contemporary Christian ideology.

Your last comment was actually Jesus's original message to the world. You, Carl Sagan, and Douglas Adams are great examples of Atheists who are better Christians than most Christians.


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 4 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

It's absurd to talk about "God's Will" when there obviously is no god in charge of anything.

Humans have the ability to let them selves be driven by base instincts and desires, or use their minds to reflect on their emotions and add some ethical, moral, social or cultural value to what they feel their basic instincts are telling them. That's how some people discover their ability to expand their intellect far above others who can't help but function not even as refind as wild animals do towards their own offspring!

Religious non-sense is as bad for your mind, as smoking is bad for your lungs!

Franto in Toronto


puella 4 years ago

f_ruz,

maybe you are right, the majority, the ones under a microscope (so to speak) for what is called believers, not necessarily means it's the right track about why or what to believe, according to what? That's another story; but it definitely cannot be said that all of those under the microscope are fanatics; or retards, or misuse their brains and the embedded logical engine; it only means that once most of them or at least, some of them, felt overwhelmed by life and its hardest parts to endure, they were not as cool as you to decide this is just how life is and means that I, myself, created all that and therefore, I, myself, must disentangle this spaguetti called life., because, believe or not, nobody else will do it for you...

The last two lines above are clear and mostly true for most people; believers or not; there is no such non-believers for me, because to believe that there is not a God, is yet to believe (equivalent to think, equivalent to be able to ascertain based on evidence, even intuitive evidence is valid!)...so to believe that all under the microscope are X is a bit hard to establish in a probability that will satisfy the bell function (normal function where the majority sharing identical features are the 'mean' or average or most expected result).

Exactly? there is no way to conclude, based on evidence, unbiased, and independently gathered, to prove one way or the other.

Statistical experiments are about figuring an hypothesis, design what size of the sample of that universe to survey and just 'pretend' that unbiased and independent opinions will be granted because of the selection of population to be surveyed ;);) as if man is an island ;);) and as if the factual evidence of a wired society does not affect/sway knowledge... ; I'd say these are very 'iffi' asumptions, yet that's how medicine research works and it has been successful, this is how social sciences work and they have been successful, but successful only up to a certain point. Nothing achieved by this kind of experiments is ever absolute and in fact, we have witnessed in the last 50 years only, a lot of reversals of those "truths". Social sciences do use 'tables of truth' to be sure that the propositions to be proved are in themselves free of contradictions. Remember?: all men are mortals/all elephants are mortals/therefore men are elephants? even when the first statement and the second are true, the last (the conclusion derived from both propositions) is false...what is failing here? intuition or lack of more specific propositions? There is something in formal math called "fuzzy logic"...;) worth to give it a try.

Religion lies in the social sciences realm which are not exact sciences by the same token of its nature ;), and it must be treated as such. The beliefs are real for each but they could be changed and we have witnessed those conversions (were they derived from a false belief or from man's special events in life?)...this is another subject too very swaying what we believe... Even within the same family, can believe differently.

Therefore, scientifically speaking, we must not feel upset or suffer because the majority under the microscope believes the so-called non-sense; believers do have the same opinions (of non-sense and blindness) and feel pity for those not under the microscope yet! but I have not read any insulting the logical abilities or their human dignity for not believing; that in itself is a proof humility as versus arrogance witnesssed in the "logical thinking" lackness, to me ;) but, again, it may also be assigned to the blindness ;) how can we get upset about this?

One thing is factual truth though: selfishness is experienced by the many in both representations of belief and I do not see how, someone believing in logic and stuff or someone believing and preaching their living faith will act just as blank-minded (a different feature not mentioned yet) when speaking to or about other human fellows, as if what is at stake is some value comparable to a political party goal to get.

To me, if belief is about power, then frankly, is off the track at once, I do not expect, as a believer, to worldly gains, but those on my efforts to practice my profession as ethically as my happiness itself. And believing to be in grace with power, like in the Greek civilization stories and myths, is just a fantasy for the mediocre spirits.


Ugly Honest profile image

Ugly Honest 4 years ago from Within the New York/DC Megalopolis

All perfectly good questions ... and believe me I've asked them myself ... This may not help but for me it has come down to two observations .. I've seen pure unadulterated evil ... surely not as horrifically as you've experienced it but I know that it is real ... I've also been witness to unnatural acts of selflessness which I couldn't believe were real although they were ... Hence I know these two warring factions exist in all human beings .... We're all capable great kindness and great wickedness ... God is a gentleman ... He gives you the choice ..... Of course for the unexplainable I've taken great solace in a certain lyric "That is the mystery - More than you can see - Give up your pondering - Fall Down on your knees ... Simply put He's GOD I'm NOT .... I've been where you are .... And I do wish you well


puella 4 years ago

Ugly Honest,

Yes indeed, God is a gentleman, he gives us free will, and as such, we must accept the consequences of our decisions. Decisions are, usually, taken after some sort of analysis, to responsibly eliminate possible byproducts or harms to oneself and others (staying away of selfishness). Sometimes there is no time to analyze, we are prompted to do, but there is always a 'common sense' and a brain experience to intuitively ascertain the right answer, yet, we may still err. But all that is different from knowingly do harm others. But to decide that God is liable? or absent? or cruel? To me, is denying our human capacities, facts proven, themselves.

I found in the internet, searching for opinions about this topic here in this hub, something that impressed me as a very good explanation to, at least, think of a greater or super being or deity.

I copied and pasted from RCT Patriot75 (the author in one of those forums) his ideas about what could logically helps us derive the existence of God:

"Science has proven that life has a blueprint, blueprints don't draw themselves; science has proven the universe operates under laws, laws don't drafts themselves; science has proven that the universe had a beginning, everything with a beginning has a cause: the universe has a cause that exists beyond itself"

RCT's brief but convincing line of reasoning is both, logical, brainy, and ... humble: man must admit humbly his/her limitations, and in such, he/she shows greatness, just like God's Son, Jesus (historically factual) taught us. Humility reaches farther than arrogance.

Ugly Honest, I read you in one of your hubs and I find it so useful and helpful,and so consonant with what you just said here. Thanks.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Puella, at last I CAN agree with you here. I have no problems at all with most of what you and Patriot75 and Ugly Honest have written.

Maybe this means I am not "Atheist," but I am reluctant to talk about "believing in Gard" because that is what I hear christian people talking about, and the is no way I will call myself "christian."

Christians, of various denominations and persuasions, have convinced me that they spew human junk that has nothing to do with a most mysterious and marvelous creator that could conjure up the world I am conscious of.

The judgements, the fears, the control freakishness, all these are constructs of humans that want to lord it over others for their own purpose.

The path I have followed, away from christianism, has served me, and those I mix with, much more fruitfully.


puella 4 years ago

jonnycomelately,

I am truly happy for your words; really jonnycomelately..

Let's keep up the level ... ;);) OK? Thanks again.

In math. and in any realm, but especially math, there is math fallacy, which is reaching the wrong result with a proof system applied to a set of propositions somehow intertwined.

If propositions to be proved are themselves "true" (based on evidence ascertained by our intellect) and the proof system devised to prove them does not commit a single error (like a division by Zero, that results in 'infinity' or does not divide zero by zero that yields an undetermined result) then usually the proofs do their job in proving that the propositions (axioms) were/are true, formally logically proved.

How can we here pretend that propositions by both groups are "true"? are they intrinsically true? it stills need a demonstration by a formal system of proof, and none can do that, because if the Verb was Flesh by the Holy Spirit and Mary is still Virgin, how can we demonstrate that?

Thomas was the source of the saying "seeing is believing"

What each of us "see" is up to each's vision health and disposition, still not proven nor unproven, in both sides of the balance.


puella 4 years ago

Jonnycomelately,

In your last post, you say that you might not be an atheist by definition but perhaps by reaction ;) ; I interpret that what sets you off from Xtianity (as a realm of practicing Jesus teachings and commandments) are Christians practice itself. Then it is not the faith but the way it is practiced: lack of authenticity you see in the many.

Way back before you, Gandhi said something that is in consonance with what you feel: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”. Gandhi was talking about attitude and he further said ““Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude.”

Charles Swindoll , regarding the importance of ‘attitude’ in life said the following:

“The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life.”

“Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home.”

“The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude... “

“I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it”

“And so it is with you... we are in charge of our attitudes.”

Therefore, I would not judge you wrong when you reject the messengers, but still, why reject the message? Everything in life is twofold: the why’s and how’s for you and the corresponding why’s and how’s for your fellows terrestrians. I mean all this, not for the sake of “convincing” you but in the case you feel unsure. Else, it is not worth any sacrifice if you do not feel the call and it’s anyway as valid either way you feel dignified and a vehicle for dignifying others. That to me weights much more in a life.

About the history of Xtianity, I read and quote:

“This, then, is Christianity, a supernatural religion and the only absolute one; in a sense (developed in the Epistle to the Hebrews), the oldest, for the Church is not an afterthought, but instituted by God in the fullness of time, and containing a revelation of Himself, which all to whom it has been adequately presented are bound under pain of eternal loss to accept (Mark 16:16), offering to all, who are sincere in seeking, the solution of all the world's problems; enabling human nature to rise to the sublimest heights and "to play the immortal"; full itself of mysteries and Divine paradoxes, as bringing the Infinite into contact with the finite; the one bond of civilization, the one condition of progress, the one hope of humanity. Its fortunes have been the fortunes of its Founder; "not all obey the gospel" (Romans 10:16). The Jews rejected Christ in spite of the evidence of prophecy and miracle; the world rejects the Church of Christ, the "city set upon a hill", conspicuous though she be through the notes that proclaim her Divine. What men call the failure of Christianity is no proof that it is not God's final revelation. It only makes evident how real is human liberty and how grave human responsibility. Christianity is furnished with all the necessary evidence to create conviction of its truth, given goodwill. — "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".” See? How real is ‘human’liberty and grave our responsibility.

And some reading that gets the reader to a point of congruence is understanding what goes on inside that we exhibit… In that sense, I quote from Wikipedia about methaphysics realm and truths the following:

“A person normally keeps his views on life in separate mental compartments. His beliefs about politics, morality, religion, sexuality, relationships, etc, are not co-ordinated but function as separate patterns of thought.

“Beliefs about experience generate judgements about that experience. Conscious beliefs generate conscious judgements, and subconscious beliefs generate subconscious judgements. The importance of beliefs is that they help form the character of a person. If a person’s character becomes changed in some way then this is because his beliefs have also changed.

Understanding one’s central beliefs is fundamental to achieving real transformation in one’s character. This internal change is qualitatively different from change that is produced by an alteration to one’s external circumstances.

An alteration in external circumstances usually gives just the appearance of change in oneself, while in actuality only a difference in emphasis of one’s character traits has occurred.

The exploration of subconscious beliefs is the study of the past – and the domain of the past is dynamic psychology. Then the exploration of conscious beliefs is the study of the present – and the domain of the present is existentialism.

Beliefs about experiences generate judgements about those experiences. Then our emotional responses follow. [³]. So there is another factor to add, that of the intensity of emotional responses to our experiences.”

A person can learn to cope with any problem by utilising will power. But when he begins to ask himself why he should act in that way then he is beginning his journey into metaphysics. The question ‘ Why?’ sets the framework of all spiritual idealism, though for most idealists the answer may be just intuitive and not clearly and rationally conceptualised.

The question ‘ Why?’ relates to purpose and meaning in life. It needs to be separated from the question ‘How? ’, which relates to the mechanisms by which processes occur. The question ‘How?’ is the central concern of science, but science has no means of answering the question ‘ Why?’. Metaphysics is outside the domain of science.

Nevertheless, the scientific attitude of impartial inquiry and empirical exploration into a problem is applicable to every domain of experience, including metaphysics. This distinction is very important. The content of science is valid only within the ideology of science, but the scientific attitude is a necessary ingredient of any deliberate process of character transformation.”

So, jonny, if I have interpreted you closer to right, I’d say that you must have already asked the why’s and have figured the how’s. If you still have not a clear cut definition as for faith or belief in God, at least, you are honest to yourself, and true to yourself, i.e. authenticity.

But even if you had reached the opposite conclusion and you were a believer, I can promise that you, many times will still feel that perhaps you are not in the right track, and doubts will feel you with a sense of void ;) to what I can only offer you as consolation that temptations are 0n a 24/7 awake and running. And that strength of character built thru convictions are not enough; sometimes, we will feel ashamed if breaking with ourselves; a sense of voluntary sorrow arises, we repent (to be sorry and self-condemnation and regret) because it offends God, and we know our brothers are God’s face on earth meant to give us chances over and over, to fulfill the practice of our creed, and we will ask God guidance to keep us put.

It is easier not to be a Xtian ;) if we want to be authentic. And you know what I am talking about. The brick and mortar face of the church (which really should not need that building, much less fancy buildings; that is so far from Jesus, who chose to be born in Belem in a humble way: that only should imply and mean much more of what we just see around as ‘normally’) but, again, I will not have to answer God about what others did but about what I did to my fellows or what I did not do, when able to, on my everyday times). I do not worry, as worrying would mean lack of faith and/or trust in God, but I do think/feel that, in general, we perform at a lower level than our real capacity as Xtians. That, though, does n


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Puella, thanks for your concern. Thanks for going to the trouble to write at length on your points of view, the points of view by way of Mahatma Ghandi, etc.

Yes, I have rejected much of what I see coming from some people who call themselves christians. Some of the reasons for this it that they can reflect what I see as some of my own past and attitude. That was when I considered my self a born-again christian. I am ashamed of the presumptuousness with which I tried to evangelize others. Without that "cloak" of authority which I apparently had, according to my fellow born-agains, I would not have said boo to a goose! With the cloak on, I literally TOLD individuals what they needed in their lives. It was none of my business to judge them, with or without the backing of scripture.

I have turned my back on that.... and please, don't anyone use my previous tactics and try to evangelize me now.

I honour the paths and journeys of others. They have reached a certain point, a cross-roads, and are free to make their own choices. They might ask my opinion of a particular direction, and I can give them my understanding.... but I cannot and will not direct them to take it.

That covers the christian bit.

Now, concerning a god. I do not accept the existence of a god that stands in judgment of you, or me, or anyone else. I see that as a construct of the human mind. So when you Puella, or anyone else says you do accept such an entity, that is your stuff and I respect you for it, without taking on the premise itself.

My purpose for existence? The closest I can get to understanding where I sit in regard to the "creation," is the analogy. I am but an infinitely tiny wavelet manifest upon the infinite expanse of the Ocean of Love, i.e., the finite world of which I am part is merely a reflection of the Infinite. There never was and never will be an identical wavelet to myself. I have a unique place in the Jigsaw Puzzle, albeit an infinitely tiny one. My jouney, my experience(s), my joys, my pain, my problems, my innovations, my relationships with every other piece of the finite Picture, all have their unique reasons.

In this sense, and this sense only, I use the "Divine Creator" to show my respect to the entity which somehow brought "me" into existence.

I do not know the nature of the Divine except when I am aware of the Beauty of this World.

In the world of biology and medicine there is ample scope to come by that awareness. I never cease to be in awe of it. The flower; the ant; the horse; the whale; the mite who irritates my eyelid; the delicate osmotic balance which allows my brain to function; the enzymes which allow all chemical activity in my colon...... endless examples.

Morality? Who is to say that a person who murders a person is any more or less guilty than the person that steals a teenager out of a family, never to be heard of again? Who am I to make judgment upon a man, woman or child that "steals" a loaf of bread because of their starving hunger? We need to know the motives behind a person's actions before any of us can pass wise judgment. For most of us we stand in ignorance if we were to just admit it.

No, I am not christian. I do not accept the stories which have been built up to "prove" that "Jesus" was the "son of god." It's totally unimportant to me.

Today, this life, as long as I shall be aware and conscious, is of infinitely greater importance that such time-wasting arguments.

Such a long Comment. I hope you can see my Journey.

Thank you for reading.


puella 4 years ago

jonny,

In “A Dance of Suffering, Shame, and Self-abuse”, Robert Burney M.A. finds “civilization” {and all it has made it up till present (since… its recorded existence and even before that ‘since” by extrapolation)} the master-embedded source/root of our behavior as… humans trying to reach the upper level of spirituality… I quote Burney, first in his explanation of the context of our usual ‘living’ essence and then in his explanation of the causes to it, that he qualifies as the “codependent-society related” causes and, therefore, the corresponding effects, as follows:

“The reason we have not been loving our neighbor as ourselves is because we have been doing it backwards…; we were taught to judge and feel ashamed of ourselves…, we were taught that being humans was being imperfect (via sin) and that we should try being spiritual …; the truth is we are spiritual beings having a human experience; we are not weak, sinful, shameful human creatures who have somehow to earn the right to become spiritual,… we are transcendent spiritual beings part of the Oneness… the God-Force…; we are perfectly where we are meant to be in our spiritual path…and, from the human perspective we will never be able to do “human” perfectly, which is perfect; …we are not trapped in some kind of tragic place out of which we have to earn our way by doing the ‘right’ things…In order to make any progress in learning to love and trust ourselves we need to have/pursue a spiritual belief that support the possibility that we are unconditionally loved: this is vital in helping us to stop shaming and judging ourselves…”

“If I am feeling like a ‘failure’ and giving power to the ‘critical parent’ voice…telling me that I am a failure, then I…stuck in a very painful place …shaming myself for being me…then I must rescue myself…; this disease has me running around in a squirrel cage of suffering and shame, a dance of pain, blame and self-abuse…Truth, in my understanding, is not an intellectual concept..it’s an emotional energy, communicating with my consciousness, my soul. Truth is an emotion…that I feel within…”

“The fact that dysfunction exists in our romantic, family and human relationships is a symptom of the dysfunction that exists in our relationship with life, with being human…a symptom of the dysfunction which exists in our relationships with ourselves as human beings”

“Codependency is a dysfunctional emotional and behavioral system…; when a society is emotionally dishonest the people of that society are set up to be emotionally dishonest…; in a codependent society everyone has to have someone to look down on in order to feel good about themselves…And, conversely, there is always someone we can compare ourselves to that can cause us to not feel good enough”

Burney shares part of his childhood experience: “self-righteous angry father, low self-esteem mom. As kid, he was yelled at which made him feel unlovable and flawed; his mom constantly expressed her love and support for him for him but she emotionally incested him: he felt responsible for her well being…”

Then, after years of sorrow, pain, shame, Burney realizes he must take corrective actions: changing the behavior that gives him a reason for shame…the rest is presented in his “Joy to you and me” website; Burney is an inspirational teacher, codependency therapist,…

I think he has helped many to set those boundaries, healthy though seemingly selfish, to preserve the mental health that will allow some peaceful life…Will it? I ask myself, even when Burney has presented convincing arguments and first-rate experience as presented in his “dance of the wounded soul” and in his “dance of shame, sorrow and self-abuse” where a comprehensive, articulated, essentially- detailed prose about facts of life as we commonly live it or have seen lived by our neighbors, in sequence and in essence and in truth and in facts, do admit the cruel reality for the many, the unspeakable and unforgivable roots or causes of mutilated hearts and souls, and strongly states that it all can be overcome and find joy and purpose for life.

And all this he has managed to derive and live without belonging to any religious community, but still his particular religiosity lived truthfully… with charity to himself and then onto others, just like Jesus asked us for in His only one commandment : “To love God above everything else and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves”

Jonny, I know I have written or tried to, too long again, but it was only to tell you that I am nobody to judge you nor criticize you; au contraire, I understand you… and the reactions to fakes; it’s only normal/natural and better, you describe yourself satisfied: precisely! How many of the rest of us could say categorically the same? Like Socrates would say to you: you have done your homework as he said to his students “A life not analyzed is not worth living”.. and, we were saying? ;);)

For what you just said, you have set the boundaries, have made the soul healing, fell part of the connection with the god, and are/feel in the right track… Cheers to you and all.


JustaskV profile image

JustaskV 4 years ago from LA

Hi~ I have not read ALL of the feedbacks, but congrats to all who at least seek to find answers. Here is my 50cents on this topic. As I matured I learned that wisdom comes from seeking knowledge and experiences used as a tool to grow. A few years ago I discovered more about who God is and who Jesus is in relation to God. But before you roll your eyes, let me tell you, I earnestly was seeking to know who God is. I searched and researched, asked scholars, atheists, former atheists, theologians, renounced pastors and even renounced psychologists. I was fortunate enough to have access to them. Now I am not claiming to be an expert because of it, but what I have found was enough to make me not just a believer, but it softened my heart and humbled me. Unfortunately many Christians don't have the right answers, or are vague or worse they got it so wrong that it makes other Christians or Christianity in general look bad. Now the reason why most Christians answers may not be sufficient enough for some of you, is because they have a basic but important foundation. Faith. Yes, Faith = (complete trust and confidence) in an unseen, untouchable and supernatural being. But in essence we all have faith, even the non believers. The question is where lays your faith. Your kids? your money in the bank? Your spouse? WHen I get in my car and drive, I have to have faith in people, I have to trust that they don't hit me, I have to trust that they respect the red light as I'm crossing my green light. YET, how often do accidents happen? How often do people disappoint us?But it doesn't stop you from loving your children, your spouse and it certainly doesn't stop you from getting in your car and driving. We may not 'see' God, but you only have to look at the perfect synchronization of the moon, the sun, the ocean …or how about the most incredible design ever- DNA!! "the DNA in every cell of every creature shows unmistakable evidence of having been deliberately designed by an intelligent being"- Stephen C. Meyer, a Cambridge trained scholar in the philosophy of science. Ok, you think about it. But let me conclude with that, because there's more evidence of the existence of an intelligent, supernatural being (-GOD- ) than not, and even renounced atheists, though they may refuse, no longer can deny. But to answer a few of the original questions: For example why does God allow calamity, destruction, deceases, etc etc etc.??? He doesn't…WE allow them to happen. I have this believe in my head , that God looks at all this and His heart aches for His children. Now you say, " than why does He let these things happen? He is God, He can stop it from happening! Why free will if that doesn't help us?? Well, you first have to understand the WHOLE picture and for you to understand the cause of things you have to search what's written in His word and than things would make more sense to you. He is not a God that is hiding, He wants you to seek Him, ask Him…but when you find HIm , be prepared to feel a sense of urgency and a will to do whatever it takes on your side. BUt see, most who ask, ask regular believers, and what you get is their faith based answers, not what you may want to hear, but God's word is quiet logical and precise and there are no gabs or inconsistencies. Nor is scripture just a bunch of "story telling", some things may be explained in parables, but for example: Abraham and the opening sea has been proven to be a true event by archeologists who dived the exact area mentioned in the bible, not only have they found armors and things that the soldiers back than carried before they drowned but also Meteorologists have proven that with the right wind conditions especially in that area and exact location, yes, the water literally pushes of to a side leaving a pathway. This could not have been predicted by Abraham unless guided by a supernatural being. This is one example among many and to be fair I am not even giving you the full version and explanation. It would take too long. Now~ at the risk of sounding arrogant and forgive me if I do, but if one does nOT believe in the existence of God in the first place, what is the point of asking why "HE" let's it happen. If yOu don't believe, you certainly would not understand God, nor what is happening nor can you ask if you're not ready or prepared to take action. For an unbeliever, it does not require you to know God for you to make your mark and contribution to the world and help others with love. But do you do it? And if one day you were proven to be wrong by the account of your own eyes, what will you say? " God I guess you are real and oops, i was to busy rejecting you and too busy asking questions that I missed the essential of living life" Living life is not about YOU`~ it is living for OTHERS ( aside of the once that are easy to love, like your family) . Take responsibility and if you truly want answers, seek out a person who is wise and well read in Scripture and seek His word. The answers are all there. But I know most won't because with answers comes responsibility, but also real joy and gratefulness that this God has giving us much undeserved grace and mercy ( too deep to elaborate). FINALLY, I will get to answer your one question at least about His allowing things to happen IF you were to for an instant believe that there is a GOd - This God is a God of order. This world was created in perfection and we were created in God;s perfect image. We were all supposed to be perfect, woman were not meant to feel pain at birth for instance, and ( this is important) based on theologians study and even historical and archeological conclusions

"Since God gave man dominion and AUTHORITY in the earth, HE cannot directly intrude into the affairs of man without violating His word. HE must be invited(entreated) into the affairs of man through strong believing prayer and intercession (Faith). SO- " If God is such a good God, then why do these things happen? - BECAUSE that is what men allow!"

One last point for those who don't believe Jesus to be the son of GOd. Jesus was the answer to our problem. GOD had to make himself man in order to penetrate the earth. See, God is an unapproachable being, a light that you nor I can be in front of without probably vanishing. But yet His love for us made Him humble Himself down to a human, approachable, relatable being. Furthermore to conclude my previous explanation of our God given authority over the earth, which we pretty screwed up thanks to our original ancestors. Through the subtlety of the Devil, Adam and Eve sinned against God and unwittingly relinquished their AUTHORITY in the earth to him( Satan) Thats is why 2corinthians 4:4 calls Satan " the god of this world" Wonder why there are so many religions in the first place? hmm sounds like a prefect strategy to deviate a person from his/her real Father God. No wonder Jesus hated religion and offerings and rituals. All that separates us from God. To me, it makes sense that a Loving God has ONE way back to Himself. Think about it: as a parent, would YOU want to confuse your children if they were lost out in middle of no where? Would you as a parent say " sweetie, I just want you home, see the roads? good, pick one, any…it doesn't matter, maybe one of them will get you home..I hope" NOOOOO - trust me, you'd be yelling on the phone saying " listen to me, just follow what I tell you and you will make it home, follow this road, don't get distracted, don't stop for bathroom, just stay on the road, don't deviate, please. " SO why would God our heavenly Father create many roads for you to take, but Satan's plan is exactly that, to confuse, detour you by all means as long as you question God's way but don't seek Him, is exactly where he wants you. By the way, quick FYI - in case you wonder why there is hell…ya~ God didn't create hell for US…He created heaven for us, Hell was only meant for the 'fallen Angel, now known as Satan. Sadly, most people decided they'll join him there and God wants to prevent that from happening at all cost. Jesus came back to restore things to it's original intent all by His authority and in His name.


puella 4 years ago

Jonny,

s usual, afterthoughts ;) and as usual, poetry of some well "achieved" intellects; Goethe in "Faust" says

“I have studied now Philosophy

And Jurisprudence, Medicine,

And even, alas! Theology,

From end to end,

With labor keen;

And here, poor fool!

With all my lore

I stand, no wiser than before;

I’m Magister –yea,

Doctor-height,

And straight or cross-wise,

Wrong or right,

These ten years long,

With many woes,

I’ve led my scholars

By the nose,-

And see, that nothing

Can be known!"

Indeed, very "indeedly" ("adverbly" modifying another adverb :) with the permission of "right English" grammarians...;) and Samaritans:)

I'd only add, that Goethe: why? why he did not dwell in the nous? or common sense? or intuition? well, for one, there was not widespread wikipedias nor internet nor... easy access to info...; and Jung had not showed up with his points of views; and brain-conditioning (Pavlov-like) was only for the 'intellectuals'...;) at 'very' interesting universities...so to change a bit the magnifier position now...


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

JustaskV, You make a lot of points, so my apologies in advance because I know I won't get to them all. You are correct we all have faith in people. I have faith in my children and my husband. They are here and prove themselves to me all the time.

"but if one does nOT believe in the existence of God in the first place, what is the point of asking why "HE" let's it happen. If yOu don't believe, you certainly would not understand God, nor what is happening nor can you ask if you're not ready or prepared to take action. For an unbeliever, it does not require you to know God for you to make your mark and contribution to the world and help others with love. But do you do it? And if one day you were proven to be wrong by the account of your own eyes, what will you say? " God I guess you are real and oops, i was to busy rejecting you and too busy asking questions that I missed the essential of living life" Living life is not about YOU`~ it is living for OTHERS ( aside of the once that are easy to love, like your family) ."

I have spent my life trying to figure out the whole god question and Christians. You are corrct I certainly do not understand. I try but I guess I am missing the part of my brain that allows that. I simply can not grasp the concept of an all powerful being placing the blame on us for our misery when in my eyes he could at least make life a little easier for those who deserve it. I spent years crying out to a God with no answers given. To this day I wish I could go back in time and tell myself not to waste my breath. If there is a God and I am wrong then I will feel no different. He chooses not to help children (actual children). Would I look up to or have a hero that did the same? NO! I simply could not worship something that allowed my childhood. If "He" is real then "He" failed me. So either way I guess I'm an arogant atheist or an angry agnostic. I'm sure that all of my questions are a waste of time. Something to try to help me understand and justify my child hood, when the simple fact is my father failed me, not a God because there was never a God there to look out for me. I guess I am more angry with the idea that so many believe so easily while we have children being raped, beaten, and killed. It seems the easy way to not question is to simply have "faith". I never have been good at picking the easy way. Thank you for your time to comment. I truly hope that if you read this response you understand I mean no disrespect, I simply do not understand.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Nothing bad comes from god, james1:13 you say that god has failed you but once you reach a certain age you need to do more than have faith in god, the bible says faith without works is dead James 2:17 in fact I suggest you read the majority of James 2 because it explains quite well what is necessary if you want god to hear your prayers.

Understanding god is easy because we are made in his image don't believe the catholic lies that god is a mystery, but we need to show him respect the basis for a Christians hope is the undeserved kindness of god so we need to stop thinking that we are doing god a favour by believing in him we are doing ourselves a favour.


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

I think JustaskV meant to say Moses, not Abraham. And the funny thing about Moses, while we are on the subject, is that the Egyptians show no record of him; which is odd because they wrote about everything (even if they changed the details in their favor). Not trying to start a debate on the subject though.

Those were odd choices of scripture given the context dannytaylor. Peoples was molested because of her evil desires and her lack of actions to not be molested? Even considering your preface of age relativity adults are kidnapped, raped and killed as well. The section of 5:7 would make more sense, namely bad things happen so greater things can happen later.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Dannytaylor02,

Careful.....I have been down this road. They have no intention of understanding anything about our beliefs. They merely want to ridicule us for them and make us feel guilty after being goaded into a heated debate and showing some human weakness. Of course, I am sure you have more resolve than I do. You may consider voicing some of those faithful viewpoints in more accepting environments........

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Matthew 10:14

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

........You may be trying to help but it will not be recieved in that manner.


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

Who is "they" who are so unwelcoming? The problem with using Paul in this context is he is writing back and forth to a specific person. We are reading one half of a conversation, and you are generalizing that half to apply to all nonbelievers when it was in specific reference to idolaters who were physically within the Corinthians church.

Paul and Jesus were both proponents of reaching out to everybody; your Mathew reference was a reminder to not dwell where you are not wanted. No one has said Christians are unwanted here that I have read. And there is no trap here it is just an honest conversation.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Manningnd,

Read up in the comments newbie...ur talking to a veteran. It's kinda hard to convince someone they are not being shot at when the bullets are Whizzing by.....


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

You are justifying one vague statement with another. Not my job to substantiate your claim. What do you consider a bullet?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

well im aware that the person who wrote this hub has a christian husband so that is the reason im sharing specifics.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I guess I was wrong. I had assumed we were ok, but after your constant warnings to people not to speak to me I am becoming a bit annoyed and see I was wrong. Please have the respect to not discourage people from having conversation or commenting on my hub. I will not continue to approve comments that are basiclly saying "Don't bother talking to those people" Your religious comments are welcome as they have been. Please don't drag others down because you feel you had a bad experience and please don't continue to stay just to be the warning police. If you want to be part of the coversation that is one thing but that was the last comment I'll approve that tells people to run for it.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Lol makes it too hard for you to Shoot 'em down huh? Don't worry, I won't hurt your ratings. It just serves to fuel further conversation. I don't care what you approve.....although I do recall you saying you don't censor your followers no matter what they say. I guess that means "so long as they are not Christians who warn others to avoid the frustration." you have no intention of learning anything. Several people have answered these questions and none of those answers are what you are looking for. Therefore, you are not looking to understand but rather to try to "disprove". We had our conversations.....I was talking to someone else: but if you want to censor me go ahead.....lol.....oh no! I could lose ALL THIS! Lol


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

David I think you need to stop talking your doing Christianity a great disservice claiming to be one and acting so dogmatically as you are.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I don't censor anyone who is adding to the conversation. However you are trying to be petty and end the conversation and are directly insulting me in the process. I don't come to your hubs and disrespect you, I only ask the same. You may have been talking to someone else but you are talking about me at least in part. I have no intention of disproving something I can't disprove or prove.


David Ramses 4 years ago

I am not talking I am typing and it's funny how Christians are no longer Christians if they quote scripture. Peace, i think ur right. This conversation drew to an end to me a long time ago. you all can dance around and let them insult you while you compromise and wishy wash the scripture and try to be nice.....hope I have the pleasure of not conversing with any of you anywhere else on here.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

your calling a scripture in you bible wishy washy haha man please...stop before i convert to atheism, your the only one being insultng this is HER hub and she is entitle to type/say whatever she wants if you dont agree fine but dont insult people because of that.

peeples as you can see from davids responses the title of christian means absolutely nothing if you dont practice what you preach, you dont believe in god however you clearly have more respect for people than he does.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Lol Danny, your judgments are so harsh! Please don't send me to hell Danny. Or should I call you god? Well, there it is Peeples. You have managed to get god on the line and now you can ask him in person! Danny, answer her questions for her lol If all Christians were as appeasing and concerned about people's feelings as Danny, Christianity would have died off along time ago. Lol


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David what is your issue? Really I thought this was all resolved now it pops up out of nowhere a month later.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David, and anyone of you who can only write/talk about your christian understanding of things. One thing you have not been able to do is talk deep, personal, meaningful stuff about your own person. You skirt around this, because maybe it's too difficult for you.

Peeples began this Hub with some very personal, honest statements about her life, her family relationship, her genuine attempts to understand her husband's point of view. She has also offer lots of respect and patience with you individuals. Even when David is close to being offensive, and defensive regarding Peeples, she is still gracious enough to give at least a little benefit of the doubt.

So now, what is it with you religiously-minded individuals? Can't you step out of your religious role, just for a moment? There are obviously personal issues for each of you to address. I suspect the religiosity is there only as your personal smoke screen, trying to deny your "truth."

Religion, ultimately, is no substitute for inner honesty.

Just try stepping back and looking at yourselves, in a mirror. Then invoke the "still small voice of calm." Listen to the Inner Voice which, if you look closely, is in fact the Holy Spirit which you so often talk about. It's got nothing to do with religion. Just YOU. YOUR attitude and outlook on life.

Thanks Peeples for starting this Hub. Great respect to you.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Lol Danny, your judgments are so harsh! Please don't send me to hell Danny. Or should I call you god? Well, there it is Peeples. You have managed to get god on the line and now you can ask him in person! Danny, answer her questions for her lol If all Christians were as appeasing and concerned about people's feelings as Danny, Christianity would have died off along time ago. Lol


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

Only the Religious Fanatics can not see how Religiously Fanatical they are... An awfully combative bunch of people too.. Like their way is the only right way to go about things.. And death to all, or even worse, to hell with all who do not believe as they do.. I think Danny here has supported this condition quite well.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David I have gone out of my way to not be rude to you. I truly feel that sometimes that's what you want. I don't understand how after a month you are still so hateful. What is up with the chip on your shoulder? Why all the anger?


Paul K Francis profile image

Paul K Francis 4 years ago from east coast,USA

A new question : where to go from here. I am not saying you should try to forget or deny your past - that of course is not possible, but understanding and justification may not be necessary to cherish the present and to move forward. I am glad, dear peeples, that you have a loving family and I can tell by what you write that you are a good person. You cannot change the events of the past but you can change the future -breaking the cycle of horrors and helping to make the world a better place for yourself and others. Have a great day.


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

& obviously I mis-typed since I got confused between the Danny and David combat... Yet, I will stick to my point because even those who are defending their positions can be seen as being somewhat 'Fanatical'... I am certainly glad that I believe in Myself... Yep, pretty fanatical about myself I am.. It's something I never get in a confrontational debate over.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Paul, thank you for your kind words. For me hubpages is like therapy. Do i get a resolution of some sort? Not really. However I do get to vent my thoughts and engage with others which makes me feel better about my past. In my opinion I have moved on. This is the only place I ever even talk about my past. I too am glad that I have an awesome family and a husband who can deal with me even if I do carry some baggage. Thank you again Paul.

Jonny, while I am at it thank you. You are too kind!


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Hmm nope I don't believe in hell as you would think of it so i can't send you there...Christians would have died off a long time ago if they where more concerned about peoples feeling...hmm again a very anti Christian attitude, perhaps you should rethink your position?


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Critical, LOL I'm pretty fanatical about myself as well! Only the occasional debate in my head!


GoForTheJuggler profile image

GoForTheJuggler 4 years ago from Texas

1) God can, and is, in control of everything. However, it isn't written anywhere that God's goal is to be in total control at all times, nor is it to work us all like marionettes, which leads to....

2) God gave us free will for one reason only - to choose to love and follow him, or not. Do you want YOUR children to love you of their own free will, or would you rather force them, making their love untrue?

3) Nowhere is it written that our lives are supposed to be all puppies and rainbows. In fact, it's quite the opposite. After Adam & Eve committed original sin (sex, not apple eating) in the Garden, we were all given the "sin curse," i.e. man will be forced to work his entire life, and woman's pain greatly increased during childbirth, in addition to desiring a submissive relationship with a husband. But this was all a part of God's plan - in order for us to truly choose, we must have knowledge of both good and evil, and the ability to choose love or hate.

4) There's a difference between a spanking and a beating, and spanking becomes ineffective after about 6 years or so. Some children will respond to logic, but others need physical reinforcement. I was spanked a few times as a child, never beaten, and it had a positive impact on me.

5) Our 5 senses are extremely limited and imperfect. That's why we build machines to do things for us, to see things we can't see, hear things we can't hear, etc. And you're exactly right, miracles can almost always be explained with rational thought. God isn't magic, he created everything we know and see, and the rules by which they operate. Science and religion (I prefer the word faith, as religion is more about tradition and ritual than spirituality) are two paths working toward the same goal, and there are plenty of scientists that believe in God. And finally, the proof is all around us - the miracle of life, the Earth, our intricate and awesome bodies. All one needs to do is open one's spiritual eyes, and close one's carnal eyes. What we experience now is fleeting - our pain and misery dies with us... we can't take any of it with us.

6) Every single thing in this universe is made of the exact same element, carbon, and God is easily able to manipulate these carbon atoms however he wants, because he created the rules. Your assumption that God isn't in control of everything because bad things happen is a logical fallacy. While we may not be able to explain resurrection scientifically, does not mean that it is impossible - humans simply lack the method to replicate that result. We are wholly imperfect creatures that think we are much more powerful and in control than we actually are.

7) This is the most common question people have, and it is due to the fallacy that we must choose the right "god" before we die, or risk eternity in Hell. There are quite a few things that modern Christians believe, such as the Rapture and eternal torture in Hell, that are flat out wrong and cause a lot of confusion. The book of Revelation talks about a 1,000 year period where Christ returns to Earth to teach EVERYONE the truth, before allowing them one last chance to choose between love and hate. If you want, you can just wait 'til then for the answer, and try to find peace some other way (it's a lot harder to find TRUE peace without God, however).

8) This is another thing that ignorant Christians do that really bothers me. Not every storm, tsunami, outbreak, and earthquake is a punishment from God. He created everything, and the rules for them, and then set it all in motion. Sure, he may manipulate things from time to time as he sees fit, but for the most part he's just sitting back and watching it all happen.

9) Again, we're back to the "puppies and rainbows" thing. Life is hard. Always. We can find pleasure and happiness from time to time, but for the most part it is tough and painful. If you don't believe in the afterlife, then it only makes sense that childhood deaths seem pointless and unnecessary - in reality, that child has returned to the Creator and knows only peace, and has been spared a lifetime of pain and misery.

10) If life was constant happiness and ecstasy, everyone would believe in God. Using the actions and experiences of humanity to disprove the existence of God is pure fallacy. Pain and sadness doesn't disprove the existence of the Divine.

My mother was also abused, along with her sister and brothers, by an alcoholic wife-beater until around the same age as you. She also lived the first 28 years of her life without God. She, too, became an alcoholic and dabbled in drug use. Then, one day, she found her faith in God and never looked back. God's love is greater than the love of any human, because humans are narcissists at heart and put themselves ahead of others more often than not. God is patient and long-suffering, and he gives us plenty of opportunities to discover his love... all we need to do is open our hearts and minds to the possibilities.

Another thing to remember - just because a person calls themselves a Christian does not make it so, and just like humans, Christians go through a spiritual infancy, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. However, some Christians get stuck in one phase and stop progressing. Remember this as you deal with Christians in your life. Just because you come across a childish Christian doesn't mean that everyone is like that, nor does it mean we are all the same.


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

David is partially right. Christianity as we know it would not exist if Christians were "soft." There used to be lots of different types of Christians, including the Orthodox church which would later become the Catholic Church. The other groups actually followed Jesus's words and refused to be violent. The Orthodox Church killed and tortured their way to dominance. Ironically the closer the ancient Christians followed Jesus the easier it was to kill off their branch.

And danny is right in that there is no hell in Christianity originally, it became a part of the fold as Christianity spread into pagan cultures. The pagans didn't want to give up some of their philosophies, including hell and the holiday we now call Christmas. In Judaism the closest thing to hell is a place you go where you are tortured by the demons you created. But you can move on to heaven any time you repent or the longest you can be there is 12 months. And Jesus was Jewish so this would have been his belief system as well.

But back to peoples. There is nothing to understand really. People have to believe that everything happens for reason or there is a light at the end of the tunnel because they don't have the strength to live without that comfort. But to do right for the sake of right instead of fear, to live for the sake of living instead of reward, and to love everyone even when they cause you harm, is the ultimate point.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Purgatory then? Perhaps Valhalla or Shangri-la? Come on I want to go somewhere.....I've been such a bad bad person.....or even worse!....you could send me to church!!!! That would be worse than hell. Lol I am a believer....not necessarily a Christian. Peeples, come on. I know I have been bad but not that bad right?:) after all, look how many comments I generated with my brash, blunt, messages:)!! Don't worry, when the conversation dies off again I will step in and get everyone riled up lol


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

It's hard to get to Valhalla these days, nobody carries around swords with them.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

" Don't worry, when the conversation dies off again I will step in and get everyone riled up lol"

And this! dear folks is David's sole reason for being here. Be warned, Yours Truly included of course.


CriticalMessage profile image

CriticalMessage 4 years ago from Chicagoland, Illinois

Gods Will is the greatest cop out excuse used to explain away the unexplainable... Because people need answers... and some people can not accept the simple answer that sometimes shit just happens... Sometimes good shit.. Sometimes bad shit... But shit is going to happen... But people need answers to explain the unexplainable away... When I lost my High School sweetheart to a DUI idiot?... At the funeral I kept hearing that it was gods will.. What are these people freakin' clueless ?... It was a simple case of some real bad shit happening.. Why does it need to be explained away with that cop out excuse ?... It gives people an answer they can use to heal themselves and forget about it with... People need to be more logical and less irrational with their answers.. I for one can accept shit happens as a completely viable answer... Not god will dictating when somebodies time is up.. What kind of Hocus Pocus stupidity is that ? Oh, Gees, I feel the storm coming on and lightening will strike me with all the god fear mongering crap that's supposed to keep me in line with all the rest of the blind white sheep in the flock... Wake up people & thing logically for once... It's really not that hard.. And a lot less emotional baggage to weigh you down with...


puella 4 years ago

Father (or Bro?) jonnycomelately, who are in hubings...jonny, you could not resist to "save"? this debate? hmmm

Not so long ago, there was a guy RBJ33 (or RJB33 can't remember)who spent most of his writings (I do not want to say time) crushing and yelling (capital letters in the net means yelling) all of us believers as pretty much 'retards'...and then, all of the sudden, he 'bows' and leaves saying these particular words "peeples does not need me anymore, she can do fine by herself now"... I did not know that peeples needed "assistants"; I never 'read' that peeples needed any help to fence herself from believers...; acvtually she said once that she might get some closure from the readings of believers or non, and she emphasized that thais hub was not created for a reason to find God but to ... find why Xtians can be so ,,, welll you read it...

I cannot disagree more with a kind of person that, if what I am saying reionforces his or her opinions, even if I am insulting others dignity, this coincidence makes it less hurting others...

In other words, when someone yells and insults us for being ot letting others to manipulate us with stories and gods, that ain't an insult because I happen to reinforce you?

And then if I had my opinions 180 degrees apart, then I "should" behave with more civility? because I am behaving against Christ's teachings? As if what Christ said was important for them? Double standards? that is also an insult to my intelligence.

Actually, peeples herself has been doing fine, much better than some 'fatherly brothers'... and jonny, I have read you sometimes and you can be even cruel to some...I am sorry for being this rude...


David Ramses 4 years ago

What? You can't get to Valhalla with a keyboard in your hand? That bites! What if you have a season pass?


David Ramses 4 years ago

No doubt Puella! You are being rude. Don't insult the poor people......jeeesh! lol


David Ramses 4 years ago

Jonny! Where ya been?! Sorry man.....just felt like tantalizing a bit lol It is good to see who can take a good joke, stand some of their own medicine, and handle it. Unlike Puella, I must say that you are, in my opinion, very good at maintaining your stance while keeping your cool. So is peeples by the way. But for some reason she always steps in front of those I am throwing baseballs at! lol Either way, you two are great people and you have my respect. I even agree with many of your viewpoints though I am sure you would never admit that to me lol Thanks for putting up with my BS...and thats what it is guys......BS. lol Just relax. You hit that nail on the head Jonny


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 4 years ago

Peeples , I too began my spiritual endeavors with these questions . Not having been raised particularly "Christian " like so many others ....attending catholic or baptist churchs, Heres the thing ......I haver no collective ability to recite the bible word for word, or to memorise the chants of the soul serching monks in a place of solitude yet , heres the thing , take a hard look at two things , one - the absolute beauty of some of humanity who constantly give of themselves , and two- the absolutly stunning beauty of nature , Ahh yes my girl , there is a spiritual presense , and you know what, my conclusion ;There is , definately , a higher being out there ! I love the honesty of your questions........:-}


puella 4 years ago

An honest conversation:

*honest: honorable in principles, intentions, and actions; upright and fair; sincere and frank; genuine

*conversation: the act or instance of talking together

*an honest conversation, therefore, must be: the act or instance of talking together in a sincere and frank, genuine, fashion.

About the topic: one of the most challenging, if not “the challenge” itself, that believers confront in the debate about God’s existence, is that of “suffering” moral and physical and natural… (of kids and innocents) and the lack of, at least, a reasonable reason (I mean outside the Christian reasoning which has been abundant and for all taste and levels of limitations to process the ‘answers’ and hence the knowledge) provided by Xtians.

The answer is congenital and inherited from our teachings of achieving virtue and character, and of one thing that most atheists lack: hope…we do hope to survive after the suffering, even we if die on it, because life begins after death, after departure from this temporary life… and at the same time, we “know” that God is with us and will helps us thru)…; I repeat, these explanations and the ones much more elaborated and elevated and all of the “ated” attachable usually seem void to non-believers, just because their “belief” is thru reasoning and only reasoning, but a very particular reasoning… which is pretty much what we read here, and in all, absolutely all, conversations in person or the net or on TV…always the sempiternity attitude of disdain and looking Xtians down…; another staple of the menu is the attitude of provocation, by tone of speech or selected vocabulary

The fact of unexplained suffering leads non-believers to negate God’s omnipotence, omniscience, mercy, justice, etc. etc… and therefore, Xtians belief is “absurd”

But that’s is not the end; atheists still go on by stating, like in a math equation, that if God allows suffering then it can only be due two reasons: either He is not “that” powerful or…He is evil!!!

If they’d care so much for God and His abilities their reasoning should be different; it should try to find the real sources of evil; unfortunately, that too would be hard to chew for them, because it is all written in the Bible ;)

Therefore, it is like an invalid definition: the word to be defined cannot not be part of the definition. Period. Only that in this case, it is exactly that.

The majority of us believe without a dot of doubt in the Bible teachings and stories and in the God as presented in it. So what? Why do we have to excuse ourselves for believing in what we believe? Because we cannot explain in the terms that atheist need their questions and their inquests? The only advice I have is the only alternative that science, so far, offers, and it’s that of introspection: self-searching…that will take each one far from attitudes and false beliefs, whatever they are…

But while you keep mocking, and diminishing, and insulting, and reducing the abilities of us as humans and of our brains, and our capacities I can tell you as an almost 70 years old woman who has struggled not little…that attitude will not give answers and only reduce who speak that way to fellows.

All of the sudden, they request that Xtians subdue their attitude but, just like Jesus said: “it’s very easy to see the dot in the eye of another person than to see the beam in our own eye” This applies to all, believers and non…attitude is a bad habit and solely seen in certain intellectual presentations…, as Socrates would say, the leasted ;)


puella 4 years ago

David!

Nice to see you 'round

Thanks bro! You were absent and were missed ;)

We, as you can see, are exactly in the same coordinates that we were at when you took your retreat ;) and I guess it remain like that...

So I will and perhaps so will all... with God's grace ;) (like we say in my native tongue)

Bless you all and cheers


David Ramses 4 years ago

Puella, you are by far the most interesting and robust online persona I have ever encountered. It truly is a pleasure to converse with you:)


JustaskV profile image

JustaskV 4 years ago from LA

Peeples. I will say this and end my interjection on this topic. NONE of us ( Christians ) have the right to pretend to prove God to others, we can only share our experience, our faith. "He who has ears let him/her hear" but if we find rejection or apprehension than we are to walk away, because now we are just dealing with a hardened heart. I admit in my attempts to show a side of Him that I myself have experienced, I can become a bit arrogant which is contrary to what my heavenly Father has taught me. "Trust God with all your heart and lean nOT on your own understanding" and I am also to be humble and show love, mercy and patience to those who don't know Him,' for they do not know the things of God but the things of man". I apologize if I got on my "high horse" and try to make all these points. I don't know you but you are as much of His creation as I am, your heart may be hardened because of past experiences in your early years, usually that determines our relationship with God. That's ok. The good news is that because you are married to a Christian man you and your children are sanctified ! through him. ! ( I just learned this in the bible lsat night) YOu may not be convinced by any answers given to you. That's ok. Every person has their season and encounter with him. I will pray for you, that your doubts find clarification and your heart finds rest. I appreciate the fact that you've been asking. I, nor anyone can judge your hearts' intention, at the end of the day it's between you and God. His timing is perfect,that I do know. ;)

Take care and bless ALL of you~


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Hi David, and yes, welcome back to you, too.

But hey, yeah, I like to get heated once in while too, it's fun! Trouble is in that nickname of mine..... I really am slow on the uptake sometimes, so dig me in the ribs occasionally will ya?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Hi David, and yes, welcome back to you, too.

But hey, yeah, I like to get heated once in while too, it's fun! Trouble is in that nickname of mine..... I really am slow on the uptake sometimes, so dig me in the ribs occasionally will ya?


puella 4 years ago

JusaslV, me, and all,

If we get enthusiastic about our faith and experience a need to share some (impossible to refer all here) of what we have, that has been "interpreted" here, even now, after all of our promises of not intending to Christianize peeples, all but peeples, in the team of non-believers, have jumped fiercely to us, not only on the preaching "habit" that they claim all Xtians have, but adding mayo, ketchup and an excess of GMS... therefore, they, pretty much, with the "moral" authority of "logic" and the correspondent arrogance as its usual pair, by decree, put all what we have said, logical or not, truthful or not, felt or not, with best intentions or not, etc they have trashed all of us and our writings, as simply "non-acceptable, bunch of lies, idiotic, etc"

peeples has been the only one, perhaps, while saying that she has reasons to not believe, who has kept herself with civility while disagreeing...and, basically, we are here to talk to peeples, and, by extension, if it's relevant, to others.

As a Catholic, or I should say, as a Christian, I was here talking in a honest conversation; but I cannot say the same from some, as, first I do not know them, second I infer from their writings, third I see a pattern of "jumping" to the conversation, always with the same premises and mechanical answers, parrot-like; just the same that say/accuse of all Xtians!!!

So, therefore, as humans entangled nothing less than mentioning God, my God, our God, we tend to reply accordingly to the music we hear, and we have heard their unstoppable music...Not saying that that is OK but..it is human reacting to humans, and it's only a swift verbal insistence; nobody here is Torquemada or King Ferdinand or Queen Isabella or the Borgia pope ;) although many sounded here even worse than those sorry figures of Xtianity (I doubt they were about Xtianity and I am more inclined to think that it was about the monies of those forced to conversion, and I know of sorry figures of atheists too, btw).

I do not think that we have to feel sorry/ashamed about what others calling "preaching" under false pretenses because we are arrogant and that's no being Xtian!!! We are not forcing anybody,as it's as easy as a 'click' to skip all the preaching! for God's sake!

All of those name callings, to me, only hide heir lack of proofs against definition, God's and theirs, their fear about ambiguity, their refusal/arrogance/blindness (Yes! just what they have told us too, repeatedly) to "see" around so many unexplained perfections (natural) and how man can spell God when acting with charity and love and generosity..And that is "the preaching", as far I am concerned, I tried here

However, when I write about Jesus, then I am preaching and they do not even admit that: it's not acceptable and is parrotwise

When I insist with just a bit more hints (from science people) that there has to be some deity given some facts without, still, explanation but nevertheless facts, then they keep all silent!!

So where are we? preaching in an inhabited dessert?

If someone brings something to ponder about, let's just ponder about, otherwise, if it is not the purpose to ponder but what then?? This is what I called here "circling" around and asked for more definitions to rejuvenate or rekindle the contributions, but i was told then, by peeples, that no, this is not about conversion but about pondering on xtians!

In math, 2+2=4 but there are ways to make 2+2=5 for example...let's try it! with our topic

And from time to time, we see some "comet like" level 12+ commentators, (and as such, whatever they say must be the truth?), showing once to rescue the debate, and then go missing again? I have seen this strategy a lot in several hubpages ;);) And it has led me to conclude that "it's entertaining" most of all...

Let's not feel less, Xtians, because we have been enthusiastic, we are serious people, and we do not speak loud for entertainment, e do believe and expect no metallic rewards for it...


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Puella, yes to me it is about the thought process for us all. While I would love to hear something and think "Wow I finally figured it out" I know that my reality is one of never truly believing but simply trying to understand and in the process maybe show believers why and how some of us don't believe. It isn't about downing beliefs to me. It is about doing our best to understand some of other's thoughts. If in the process we disagree, well then it's simply part of the process. I do my best to remain respectful but I have my moments where I am sure I come off as the opposite. As for David stepping in to stir the pot, I struggle sometimes with understanding when he is stirring and when he truly feels offended. It's kind of funny for me because even though this is the internet and I know none of you personally I still have "Mommy instincts" that come into play when someone is unhappy. Mixed with that I have to remain rational and let people pick their own battles and do my best not to censor my readers and commenters. It can be quite hard sometimes and during those times you will see I keep quiet and allow everyone to somewhat work their own problems out. The moral of this long winded rant? That while I do my best to keep things kind, don't expect me to butt in and tell someone them can't comment. The only time I will go that far is if someone is compromising MY hub. The point of this hub is simply for everyone to take something from the table and learn something. I hope even myself. With knowledge comes power. My husband is a great man, however I look at him and am truly confused sometimes at how he manages to believe. He is my husband though and I respect his views even if I don't understand. I will say this though I have learned quite a bit from you all. I learn a little more every day and for that I am thankful even if that knowledge puts me no further ahead than when I began.


Ann1Az2 profile image

Ann1Az2 4 years ago from Orange, Texas

peeples, interesting hub that has created all kinds of comments, I see. I'm certainly not going to try and tackle answering all of those questions. I do have an answer for two, though. I saw something on TV once and liked it. Suppose someone is wearing a watch and asks a man if he sees it. That man says yes, he sees it. Then the guy with the watch says, do you see the watchmaker. The man says no, so the guy with the watch says, then how do you know the watch exists if you don't see the watch maker? Just because we don't see God, doesn't mean He doesn't exist. He exists in the trees, the flowers we smell, a new born baby.

As far as what happens to children and the other bad things in the world, I don't think God's wants any of that, either. All of that has happened since the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. Death, birth defects, cancer, everything is what is caused from sin. Paul says even the earth is groaning from it all.

Ultimately, people who put their faith in Christ will live in a world where there is none of that, no sickness, no sin and no death. That is the hope of each Christian. It is what the Bible and Jesus promises.


JustaskV profile image

JustaskV 4 years ago from LA

Amen! Ann1Az2…..Amen!


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 4 years ago

I have debated certain anti- belief tirades on forums here for most of the two and a half years I've been here . Lets face it ,this is the internet ! And being so , anyone can say anything to anybody whatever the justification or intent. But for the life of me I am always puzzled by those who would war with a christian over believing. Trying constantly to what ? Disssprove the existance of a higher being.? Here's the thing ...okay so you may not believe or have faith in Gods existance , Why then take on the argument that no one else should ? Almost every time I read an anti- forum post , I just shake my head at the foolhardy attempts to " disprove" what you dont and aren't going to believe anyway? Even if someone actually handed my critics of faith Gods own flashlight to see with .......it would be Uhh Uhhh, no way ! If you are truely an atheist ......it shouldn't matter what I am , as I don't have to count on an atheists for my believing.! You dont have to answer these questions and I do understand your intent in this hub! ....Dialog ! Nothing wrong with that !Its always good to talk it out!


puella 4 years ago

David, David, my dear David:

Deep thanks for your... beautiful words; it feels good even when I think that I should have done better here... So,maybe next time ;)

I told you once and I will repeat it: I feel like I knew you all the time; you are so familiar to me that when I read you it gives me joy...You have not crossed my road by accident, and I know why I am telling you even when you do not know what I am talking about. I ask you, as my last day here, to remember me in your prayers, and wish you a continued life under God's grace in the best togetherness surrounding you. I am sure as I am writing this, that we will see each other, here or up-there...Blessings from the bottom of my heart. Do not let anybody change you; forthright is your characteristic and it's honorable. The extras that you add, are part of the nature while we are here but do not make you wrong; even Jesus got mad at the Temple and threw tables and ... you know: He detested hypocrisy and sweet talking; it's not needed; everybody knows how to read here; but some won't read; so tap to dust, and... sing a song ;);) Cheers dear David!


puella 4 years ago

When I was in high school, poetry was my favorite reading; one that left an impression was “wayfarer” by Antonio Machado (Spain); it’s about life’s journey, about how nobody can be a prophet in his own land (a proverb in Spanish culture) and about how little we grasp or get a hold of…life; there is a designer that runs the show; it’s elusive to make us to mind His mind; and we need to learn to be ready for what’s really what we will get, just the same that you do when you plan a day in the park (you get ready for the ‘just-in-case’ too, do you not?; like Jesus warned us… so those oil lamps must be on every night for ‘just in case’ the door is knocked by…hmmm, therefore get provisioned with plenty of oil, so to speak…metaphorically…

I copied-pasted from poemsintranslation.blogspot.com a portion of it for you, as a weekend treat, to ponder about the meaning of life, and perhaps, an elucidation about God too:

"Wayfarer, the only way..."

By Antonio Machado

Translated by A.Z Foreman

Wayfarer, the only way

Is your footprints and no other.

Wayfarer, there is no way.

Make your way by going farther.

By going farther, make your way

Till looking back at where you've wandered,

You look back on that path you may

Not set foot on from now onward.

Wayfarer, there is no way;

Only wake-trails on the waters.

Note:

Here once again we have Machado's obsession with the one-way nature of time, this time by way of extended metaphor.

Ahorseback , I agree with your analysis; yet, here we are, waiting for? I know we have lost momentum a few times, but always, the team of rescuers ;) do add some cayenne pepper to make everybody sneeze some words of hassle and even cry, but at least, cayenne pepper is good for our health, it’s good for when you have sinus constipation, or arthritis ;) (did you know that there is mental arthritis?...go figure).

The fear we feel when struggling is equivalent to the attachment (so preached against by budhism among others) to the ‘here and the now’ because it’s the only thing we feel/think we can handle decently and it only shows how frail humans are (we do not control anything, not the here and not the now either; even the most perfect plan or project or condition or situation might fail/stop-being and without preconditions; by definition, we do not have the past (so feeling fine or bad about it is a form of attachment unneeded and unwanted); the only thing we have, as still humans is the present; certainly the future is…uncertain; the future is a subjunctive probabilty, too iffi, depending on… life itself without our permission for it…; Jesus asked to whoever wanted to be His disciples, to leave all material possessions behind, and leave the home of mom and dad! He was thinking how attachment was to be an obstacle (especially for the ‘trials’ ahead)

It would be interesting to analyze, and ahorseback has touched one of the right points, why it dies...

While we do not get closure in an inquiry, how can we move on? Hope all can get the much needed peace and enjoy, as possible, a life of soul enrichment. Good luck you all!

Peeples, before I leave, let me thank you for your immense patience and spirituality (even when…); if something, you have given us some lessons about keeping ourselves together… Even when you non-believe, please let me tell you that I bless you and I will always pray for your peace and that God gives you every chance to fulfillment in what is ahead in your life. Thanks much really.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Why are you leaving, Puella?


amandad234 profile image

amandad234 4 years ago from Iowa

Doesn't it make it frustrating that you as Christians don't have the answers? That is my question to the comments here made about the fact that God doesn't give us all the answers. However, don't you want to know why? I suppose, if you have a strong faith you know that someday you will find out. Or do we just never know? These very 10 questions are questions, I think, I ask myself everyday in some way or another. I always wonder, why? I don't think I ever directly blame any type of god, but I do ask why and often think about the existence of such things.


puella 4 years ago

jonny!

I started to talk to you too but the weather perhaps has something to do with the electricity supply and the computer did a sort of a crash...So here I am, back, to offer you my farewell while answering tangencially what you ask.

I am not made for this dynamics ;) maybe I am not that flexible and I do not see a reason that would motivate me for a change: just like peeples said that she was waiting for a "wow" argument, I do not see it in any of the posts submitted by the non-believers; all I saw was the same old same old...

So, thanks for asking. .. and thanks for dealing with so much non-perfection.

Good luck jonny, keep up your good job, and being happy...what else do we need to say we are alive, right? I mean, from the perspective of nothing else afterwards...just like any bird or any tree or any flower or any fish or any planet or any sky or any poetry, and please stop me or I will repeat myself non-stop just like the "Bolero" of Maurice Ravel (which I happen to like as I like also the 1001 stories the Arabian nights through which Seherezade stays alive... what do you think of (not my creation) the following:

“The lives of former generations are a lesson to posterity; that a man may review the remarkable events which have happened to others, and be admonished; and may consider the history of people of preceding ages, and of all that hath befallen them, and be restrained… Such are the Tales of a Thousand and One Nights with their romantic Stories and their Fables.”—LANE.

So farewell, thank you again, and please forgive my impatience sometimes...


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Farewell to you also, and in whatever situation your unique journey finds you.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Puella you have added a lot to the conversation and a lot to think about. I have very much enjoyed your comments and I am thankful for them!


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

amandad234, my apologies. With puella leaving us I somehow missed your comment. Very logical of you to ask and question. If you read this, I am curious if you are part of a religion, a faith, or just a believer.


umbertoobrian profile image

umbertoobrian 4 years ago from Speedway, Indiana

This is a good hub for Christians to read and contemplate. As a faithful Catholic, I appreciate your questions. It is not a problem to examine one's faith, it is necessary. I am writing your questions down and will be thinking about them( and praying about them) over the next few weeks. I do have answers too many of them but patient consideration is a good thing


Vonasmodeus 4 years ago

Thanks peeps

10 wonderful questions . . .

I've been trying to find God for many years & share many of your Q without clear concise factual answers

I truly wish there was a God, but in all his power, wisdom & knowledge about his own creations . . . to leave us with a Shakespearean Unauthenticated History Book is by far my greatest Q

Perhaps Religion is a psychological phenomena that gives us as humans a sense of belonging, power, control, peace, sincerity & sanity etc thus anyone who strongly believes in something, firmly believes they are right because if they were not they would loose all the above - that's my 1$ answer to all 10 questions


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 4 years ago from BC, canada

All of your questions revolve around the love of God. How can God be loving if...? On the surface it looks like an easy thing for God to cure, stop, end all the suffering on the planet, but what does that look like? Is God killing bad people before they do bad things or is God teleporting people before they make a really bad mistake? Is God making poor people rich? Is God using everyone as an instrument or a puppet on a string? Is not anyone allowed to be their own person? Does God now have a planet of robots and a society that he constantly has to magically rearrange? Have our natural laws all been so often radically altered that we cannot trust mathematics any longer? Is everyone just so well off that they still want more?

When dealing with people the answers are never easy to understand. I think that a loving God would allow people to make their own choices, to live their lives and even to do bad things in which i would expect God to come to the rescue but not anonymously, because i would like to thank the reason for my great life and not just roll through life unhurt, unaffected and just in happiness not ever knowing or wanting to know what or who has made it to be this way, then we would have a planet of ungrateful people just using Gods love and not caring about his love at all or him. God would then be no more than an invisible slave without people loving him for what he has done. To God people have a worth when they are intrinsic, when they make their own decisions - good or bad - All people reap what they sow, nobody gets away with anything; either in their heart or the world around them. Many bad situations bring people to God, and then bring good christian husbands to show Gods love and make things right so that when the non believer begins to believe that is when God will really show his love. You love your own children more than your neighbors, right? :0)


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

I think it's kind of sad to say that God needs to allow bad to make people come to him. To me that sounds like a bad relationship. Reminds me of the women who seem to love their husbands more when their husband is beating on them. If God is real and that is his process he's lost a lot of good people for the sake of trying to make sure they love him. All people would be God's children even the non believers, the killers, the rapist, all of them would be considered God's children if the bible was correct. Just seems that if God is real he would have to have one sad role. Love should not require pain first. I may not be able to say I agree with your comment but I do really appreciate it.


brotheryochanan profile image

brotheryochanan 4 years ago from BC, canada

You need to grasp the larger context of what i said, you cannot just pull out one line and segregate it.

And yes God does have one sad role, but rather than make people puppets he works with them not inspite of them.

If God hovered over the planet, peering down and had an hourly telecast, people would not love him. He would still need to change lives and intents and he would be murdering bad people and not allowing anyone to do what they wanted. He would be the keeper and perpetrator of one big jail cell full of prisoners. We value our self identity very much, more than we think. Thanks for appreciating but since you wrote your response at very much the same time i wrote my reply i would like to suggest you mull it over longer, give me your 10th answer, not your first. :0)


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

What is the point of arguing with you, brother, when all you are interested in is one book, written as a need to control people in the time of their need?

You have a very narrow basis for your personal understandings, but there is a much bigger world which you seem to dismiss.

Each and every one of us in HubPages has the right to a personal opinion which can, and often is, diametrically opposed to yours. It does not automatically make any one of us right or wrong. It just is.


David Ramses 4 years ago

For a Christian, it is futile to try and answer questions we know there are no answers to....only beliefs and hopes.

For a non-believer, it is futile to ask questions you know there are no answers to.

To do so, from either viewpoint, merely serves to create prolonged discussion and further separate people because nobody can agree because no true answers can be found. This is what I have learned from this hub. I will say that I do not question the things I do not believe in; I simply do not believe in them.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

I do not see discussion seperating anyone. I agree no true answers will ever be found on either side. It's all faith no matter if we choose to believe or not. I have questioned many things I don't believe in. I don't believe in little green men but because I believe other life forms can exist I must think about what they may look like, if they speak, what their skin can look like. There is nothing wrong with open discussion even if it gets us no where.


David Ramses 4 years ago

I did not say discussion separates people. I said to do so creates prolonged discussion AND separates people. So, to do so separates people. So, to ask and try to answer this particular subject separates people. Another thing that separates people is the lack of the ability to properly comprehend grammar, language, tone, implication, and intent. Lack of communication is a bad thing but lack of ability to properly interpret is even worse. I am sure you will disagree as you have with every single statement I have ever made on here. Lol I don't even think you disagree I just think you make it a point to disagree


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Wow, I have agreed with much you have said. I simply only see a point in noting things I do not agree with it. I will try to work on that. I think we simply see many things different. Not sure that's a bad thing. "I agree no true answers will ever be found on either side." Maybe you missed this in my previous post. :)


David Ramses 4 years ago

No I caught it. I am just trying to fit in and practice selective reading and selective interpretation as much as possible. Although I know it is a losing attempt because I could never fit in because I am, how did you say it in your first paragraph?, one of "you Christians."


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Please tell me something like that doesn't actually offend you. After all I'm one of "those atheist" all the time. I'd think you'd be proud to be called one of "you christians".


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

...I like turtles...


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

HAHA! That was great! Me too, I have a tattoo of one on my foot!


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

Sorry, but it was getting a little tense there. Humor to the rescue!!


David Ramses 4 years ago

Actually, no. I'm not taking offense. In fact, I don't take offense when people call me "you tattooed freak", "you piece of shit", "you retard", or "you loser" either. But the reason I don't take offense in this case is because I have never considered myself to be a Christian but rather to have Christian beliefs. I am not even sure I believe in God the way he is normally believed in anymore. Things are so fucked up and the course of events has become so confusing in my life that I really don't give a fuck anymore. The only thing I am sure of is that I like this Rum and fuck the world.


David Ramses 4 years ago

So fuck it


lone77star profile image

lone77star 4 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

A beautiful list of questions, and not easy to answer in 1 or 2 words.

1) Boring! Set up a chess board and play both sides. See what I mean? God didn't just create one tiny little world, He created the hundreds of thousands of millions of stars which also exist in the same galaxy. He also created the thousands of millions of galaxies which also exist in the universe. He doesn't need to "control" each and every atom? Again, boring! He created the rules by which each atom interacts with every other atom. Then he allowed those items to persist on their own to follow those laws forever, unless acted upon by a new command (creation).

2) Yes God is our Father, but He is not Homo sapiens! That's important and that bears directly on the misconception which led to this misguided question. Why misguided? God's children are non-physical, spiritual and immortal sources of creation. They cannot be harmed by anything in the universe. There is only the apparency of harm when those chilren become attached to physical objects. When the objects are destroyed, the children are affected.

Do you want to become a robot without free will?

A more important question is, would you want your children to be free of a deadly trap? The trap that God's immortal children find themself trapped in effectively makes them "dead" because they are unable to see without the instrumentalities of the "robot" they operate (Homo sapiens body), and unable to affect the world around them also without that physical body.

But think of it on these terms: Say your children had become trapped in automobiles. Say they had come to think that they were their automobiles and didn't feel alive unless they had one and drove it. Such is the very real delusion in life. The only way to get the children out of their cars is for those very powerful children to decide (free will) to exit those cars -- to give up their attachments to them.

3) Yes, God is loving. He loves His children. Remember, God is not Homo sapiens. His children are not, either. The suffering of this world was the choice of the individual, immortal children. The fact that they cannot remember that decision is only a part of the poison they took long ago -- a poison called ego -- an action-reaction (false) self. Humans can do all manner of evil, but the only way for God's children to wake up is for them to decide on their own to search for a way out. If a child of God denies that they themselves even exist, then they will never be able to escape. Why doesn't God merely show Himself or some proof of His power? He's done that many times and look what happens. A few, who are on the verge of escape wake up, but those who cling to ego and the lusts of this world kill the messenger and burrow more deeply into their attachments to this world. The decision must come from within; not without. The change is one that is spiritual and cannot be forced or tricked by the physical.

4) A beautiful question, @peeples. The problem with most Christian answers is that they are incomplete.

There are some lessons that children must learn on their own or they will never learn it. Naturally, a human parent must prevent a human child from being killed or severely hurt, but being overprotective can harm a child, too. When the child grows up, they will be unprepared to deal with more of that from which you protected them -- like people who lie or cheat, or something as simple as riding a bicycle. Let them skin their knees.

But remember, God's children (the real us, soul, Holy Ghost, within) is not physical, but spiritual. If such a child of God has an adult body and that adult kills and maims others, then steals their property, their heart is hardened to change and to self-assessment.

What if that child of God could be made to examine themselves? What if they could be made to see the evil of their ways?

Numbers 14:18 tells us that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children of the 3rd and 4th generation. This passage has perhaps been debated more than most other phrases in the entire Old Testament. The passage talks of God's mercy, but how can God be called merciful if He makes the great grandchildren and great-great grandchildren pay for the crimes of their ancestors? The answer is simple. The descendent is the ancestor. The passage includes the vital clue that the guilty are not let off the hook, but God is slow to "anger." If you approach the Bible with the knowledge that God is only about love, then any metaphor of human-like emotion is a clue to something else. In this case, God's "anger" is merely the product of God's laws formulated at the creation of the universe (action-reaction) colliding with the individual's (ancestor's) decision.

And why 3 and 4 generations? This gives the evil ancestor enough time to live out their life, die, be born again in a new human body, and receive the boomerang which they themselves threw 3-4 generations earlier. Karma! Why is this important? With karma, the once hardened heart is sometimes softened enough for the new man to ask, "God, why is this happening to me?" With that, the door is open to their search and self-assessment.

5) I have to agree, some Christian answers are pretty lame, logically. But the universe exists, therefore God IS. Universes do not create themselves. Hawking is wrong that a universe could be created merely from gravity. Something needs to put the gravity there, first. But even before that, something needs to put the space, time and energy there, otherwise there is no stage on which such a force could play.

All "Miracles" explained with rational thoughts. How do you explain Peter stepping out of his storm-tossed boat onto the Sea of Galilee to walk a moment before his master? And what does doubt have to do with his sinking? Perhaps what you refer to as "miracles" are only ordinary "accidents." What I describe as "miracle" is something that bends or breaks the laws of physical reality so that science (reason) could never explain it. Like Moses parting the sea, I have created a similar miracle to the glory of the Heavenly Father. And there were thousands of witnesses. It's amazing that when people see a real (extraordinary) miracle they frequently go into denial. It breaks their reality.

6) Impossible to anyone trapped in physical reality. But such things as bringing a dead body back to life -- even one completely destroyed by worms and bacteria -- is easy to God or one of His awakened children. Such miracles prove creation, the ability to create, God's children and also God. You can ignore miracles, but they still exist.

7) Well, you could not really justify worshiping a carving of a goat head with a human body. Why? Because carvings do not have power to create. Any object in the universe cannot create a universe. Only a spirit -- God or His children -- can create. Is the God of Islam the same as the God of Judeo-Christianity? Why not!

And some of the gods of myth were only groups of humans. Take Athena, for instance. She was the group also known as the refugees of Atlantis. Known by her Egyptian name, Asett (Isis) she was protector of the Egyptians (Auser or Osiris) from the selfish refugees of Atlantis known as Sett (Seth). The cutting up of Auser in Egyptian myth, was merely the sending of the individual members of the Auser councl back to their home towns along the Nile. The birth of Heru (Horus) from Auser's dead body and Asett, was merely the Asett group reassembling the old council members to pass the baton of power to the new Heru group of rulers. And when Heru cuts off the head of his "mother" and hides it from her, this is merely the Heru group kidnapping the leader (head) of the Asett group. (I talk more about Athena in one of my hubs on Atlantis.)

cont'd...


lone77star profile image

lone77star 4 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

Cont'd...

8) The idea that God actively controls every atom is myth. The persistence given each item of creation and the laws with which they are embued are what control them. So a storm is merely the result of the laws of physical nature created long ago by God.

But you need to remember that God loves His children and they are not Homo sapiens. They are immortal spirit, dead asleep but in possession of Homo sapiens bodies.

9) Read what I wrote above. The bodies are only a tool for awakening. Each spirit chooses a body and a situation that fits their needs. If they need a birth defect, then they get one.

The difference between a soul that gets it and one that doesn't can be measured by the attitude of the person who suffers such a malady. With identical birth defects, one person could be happy and help others to laugh, while the other person could grumble and whine, making other people miserable. I'll let you figure out who is spiritually more mature.

10) "No explanation" is certainly a tough one. But the Bible offers explanation, if you look. But you have to look with hunger, not disdain.

Again, your lack of willingness seems to be caught up in what happens to these physical bodies. But these are not God's children. These are only vessels to take us on a journey and each journey has different requirements.

Don't be so attached to these vessels. If your human children were stuck in a crashed automobile, you would not care for the automobile, would you? The bent fender, the twisted metal, the broken glass would not matter to you. So, why would God care about a deformed body, especially if that deformity helped to soften the heart of a former murderer?

The object of these mortal lives is to have opportunities to awaken the sleeping immortal within. Nothing more. All of the trapings of civilization are merely a means to an end.

A great many tragedies are about to happen. They were foretold in Revelation. The beginning of the end came in 1948 with the re-establishment of the nation of Israel. It continued with the great star called "wormwood" (Chernobyl, in Ukrainian) spreading its pestilence across a third of the world in 1986. And it continues through today toward the Rockefeller's desire to have every one of us microchipped without which we will not be able to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13, and the mark of the beast).

The Beast is Greed and leading the pack are the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds and other power elite families. They murdered 3000+ on 9/11 to set in motion the final push to their version of a utopia where most of us are either dead or enslaved. Not a pretty picture, but we need to prepare.

I hope you survive, @peeples, you and your family. But more than that, I hope you find your true self awakening with your questions. May God protect the real you and save your physical self long enough for you to awaken.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

lone77star, all that is fine, but it's only your interpretation, I am sure you will agree. It suits your needs at this time in your life. Totally respected.

If you are truely free then you will allow each and every one who reads your interpretation to form their own opinion. If we have 7 billion persons alive on the earth right now, there are 7 billion persons each of whom has the right to walk his/her own pathway in life. Shake hands, hold hands, walk side-by-side for some of the way, share experiences and visions, etc. It is great to have like-minded company. Yet at the basis of life, each of us is alone and making a singular choice.

There is not need to evangelize, just accept, give a leg up now and again if requested.... beyond that, just love.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Jonny,

While I agree with your statement, I understand why Christians don't. It is because of the Great Commission and the warning about Apostacy and "a different gospel". These are excerpts from the bible. You see, in the bible, Jesus commanded Christians to "go he forth into all the nations and preach the gospel to every soul." later the bible warns Christians not to adopt any foreign doctrines into Christianity. So the idea of being truly free AND allowing everyone to interpret their own accord is a doctrine not of Christianity itself. Then, the Bible warns Christians that many foreign doctrines will be invited into the church and the doctrines of Christianity will be greatly compromised. Jesus sais these churches are not of His people or His message. So Christians don't believe in any universal truths that pertain to religion or philosophy. For a Christian it is either the bible and everything in it or it is wrong. Any Christian who believes otherwise is not a Christian but a sympathizer. This is why I don't think I am a true Christian. This is also why Christians feel the need to "correct" everyone's thinking. I apologize for when I have done this very thing. The one thing I do find very interesting is Bible Prophecy. Refer to jeremiahproject.com to see how uncanny and disturbing the accuracy of it is when compared to human history.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Interesting, thank you David. What you have written is all good sense and quite understandable. Interesting, too, that the very same adherence to doctrine is put forward by the other big religion, which came out of the same "cradle" as christianity.

These two religions are adamantly against each other. They both "came out of" Adam. They both had Arab roots. Both from the same part of the world. Followers of each felt the same difficulties in life, the hardships, etc. In the modern world they are the two major fundamental causes of turmoil and aggression. (Someone is now going to tell us that christians are wonderful, upright, god-fearing, loving people. Yes, you will find people with these attributes in each of the religions! But the religions don't make them that! And there are many more with the opposite attributes....)

It is good for me to know that you are not a "true" christian. Your open mind is proof of this. You are willing to question your own values and points of view and admit you might be wrong in some cases. You are willing to see the other point of view and reconsider in the light of that view.....not that you HAVE to change your mind, and I am not insisting you do that. I can respect you regardless.

Please keep Hubbing and Posting.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Yes, Muslims say the archangel Gabriel visited Muhammad in the cave. Christians say it was the devil in disguise. I say, "who gives a shit?" the thing I find disturbing is that the Bible predicts Islam while the Koran predicts nothing but war. Islam does not predict peace, only war. My belief is that prophecy = hope + desire. War in lieu of peace is one thing. But war in lieu of more war is another. (just an inclination. Nobody is right. In all probability all of us are wrong.)


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

"Nobody is right. In all probability all of us are wrong." I am stealing that sentence. What a truthful and wonderful(while sad) statement that could probably be used in any number of topics.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peeples, you don't fool me. Steal the phrase if you want but I know you oppose me tooth and nail. If I were to claim to be an atheist you would start defending Christian viewpoints.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Sorry if I am naive, David, but where does this agro come from with you and peeples? I don't mean we have to be "nice" for the sake of "peace," but is the rift really that strong? What's the background to it? Can you come to terms?


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 4 years ago

Looking between the lines of the origional posted questions , I see someone whos actually searching , and probably really only searching for faith! Peeples your searching in the wrong place . You are diving head first into a group of non- believers in anything except the absolute and total need to antagonize those of christian faith .


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, I don't oppose you, maybe some of your views but certainly not you. I really don't have time nor energy to hate people on the internet. I'm even willing to bet that in real life we are quite similar. (maybe that's the problem) You also don't make it easy by far. When I do try to be genuine you come off as sarcastic. Maybe you are maybe you aren't it doesn't really matter and for all I know I may come off the same way. If I truly disliked you, trust me you would know (not that you'd actually care not implying that). I'm not one for attempting to make nice with people I don't like. Jonny I have no idea where he gets it from. I have never singled him out any more than any one else.

ahorseback, I still haven't really figured out what I am looking for but the second I do I will make sure I tell everyone.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Good points/questions, Jonny. When you read back through the comments on this hub you see its origination, background, and strength. I have come to terms. I am good with it, I just state the obvious too often. Can you imagine the terms the Christians who live on the borders of Islamic countries in the middle east have come to. They just accept that the opposition is there. Of course that does not mean they do not fire shots over the border sometimes; and vice versa. Its no big deal. I was just stating the obvious. And yes, I am sarcastic. In fact, I do it on purpose because I enjoy it. Most of the time I think it is funny. But I only display sarcasm in the face of opposition. I guess it is how I deal with it. I enjoy peaceful, tranquil, interesting conversations. But once an argument has started and shots have been thrown I tend to be disruptive, aggrivating, sarcastic, and antagonizing until the end of time lol Just kidding. While I may let the issue go I never forget it was there. If you tell me to lay my head on a table and swing an axe at my neck, I will forgive you for the swing but I will never lay my head there again. I don't put my head on the same chopping block twice. In my experience, most often and with most people, whatever it is they say they are not doing is exactly what they are doing. People very rarely say what they really mean. They just keep you from advancing in life. This opposition is the story of my whole life. I currently have a bachelor degree in software engineering and project management and I am forced to work a demeaning manual labor position where management opposes me because they view my education, experience, and personality as a threat. It has lasted several months and it is coming to a head. In fact, I think I will probably be fired this week. lol This is the true nature of people who never say what they really mean. I have a problem blurting out my true thoughts and beliefs too often. Because of that, I trust nobody.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Looks like you have shown us the depths, David. Thanks.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

I'm sitting in my room watching dexter and I have a feeling to get up and check on my HP. I find this comment from you david and it did exactly what you probably meant for it to do (based on your lack of response to me). It struck a nerve, but you know what in a sense you are right. I very rarely say what I want on here because I try to avoid coming off like the sarcastic B*tch that I am. So you know what just for you I will say what I mean for a moment at least about you. I find you to be a smart person with an attitude. Someone who is easily offended but still thinks everyone is looking down on him because he is too good to like. Or is it that when it comes down to it you have some past issues of your own that make you this way? Oh wait here I go again psychoanalyzing you. I have never had an issue with you and if you see one it is in your own eyes. You are just another person on the internet. Someone who on some days I enjoy debating with and on others I feel like you are in left field. This isn't a chopping block. I have never been remotely hateful to anyone on hp and to be perfectly honest in a sense you win because you are the first person in my 14 years on the internet that I have ever felt like yelling at through the screen to. Again I think when it comes down to it we may be similar in personalities.

"This opposition is the story of my whole life" Well Damn something we can agree on (yet again). I wish you lived near me because if you did I would bet good money that when it comes down to it my personality is just like yours and the only differences would be how we present ourselves to the public.

On a seperate note, it took 3 shots of vodka for me to say this much. I keep myself contained most of the time because I know that I can come off rude and this is the internet where you never really can tell who's being an ass and who isn't.

"People very rarely say what they really mean." Here is a moment of truth for you. As much as you piss me off, you are one of the people I look most forward to hearing from. When you don't comment for a while, I hope you are okay. I hope you don't lose your job, but I do hope you find something that adds more value to your life. I'm not the mean spirited person some would like to think I am. Yet no matter what I say you will still assume that you are on the chopping block.

"Because of that, I trust nobody" I know the feeling!

Back to my drink and my dexter!


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

And thats our show for the night. We thank you for viewing 10 questions for Christians. Be sure to tune in next week: Will our sarcastic b*tch, Atheist, married to a Christian finally have her questions answered and lay down the bottle...or will David, son of Rames, finally have his way and plant his flag into the ground and yell, "Victory"! All this and more on : "Whose Right"?

Brought to you by Tide & Lucky Strike....Good Night!!!


David Ramses 4 years ago

" I find you to be a smart person with an attitude. Someone who is easily offended but still thinks everyone is looking down on him because he is too good to like. Or is it that when it comes down to it you have some past issues of your own that make you this way? Oh wait here I go again psychoanalyzing you. I have never had an issue with you and if you see one it is in your own eyes. "

Or maybe it is in your words. Not "easily offended", eternally offended. To good to like? More like too worthless, too wrong, too ambitious, too failing, and too "me" to be accepted or what the fuck ever who gives a shit. Things in my past like the ones I already told you? Yep. They are there. I don't give a shit. The only recognizable devil I have ever seen is the past. So fuck trying to figure that shit out. I don't think we're alike at all. I used to. But as of lately I am coming to the conclusion that I am not like anyone on earth. I used to think reasoning and patience were the key to overcoming. Used to. Now I see that my kids are the only reason I don't completely want to die. So I put on a mask of happiness and serenity for them to see. Misery is my destiny. Failure is my MO. Thank you for pointing out those things about me. At least you are honest. Most people tell me things like that after I say, "hello my name is Dave."


David Ramses 4 years ago

Lol and then someone has to try to ruin my bad mood!


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

...no-no, I'm not trying to ruin nothing my good man, as the Gladiator yelled to the people, "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED"! Well, I am very much so entertained. Politics, Religion, and past relatioships, will always bring out the best in heated debates. Although you both have great points and are knowledgable in what you are trying to convey, to come to an end where you'd both be satisfied would be as useless as a Catholic priest not being aroused at a little league game. There's my 2¢, hope it don't ensue another battle....

Ka'imi'loa


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

"Now I see that my kids are the only reason I don't completely want to die." I'll add husband to my list as well.

"So I put on a mask of happiness and serenity for them to see." This has been my life. after all who wants to be around the person who no matter how hard she tries sees the people around her let her down, die, get robbed, and no matter what the thoughts don't end.

"Failure is my MO" 32 homes no one wanted me at, my parents didn't want me, I fucked up my first marriage, and over 40 jobs in my adult life.

"So fuck trying to figure that shit out." I could only wish to have the ability to know how. Outside of being wife and mom that's all I know how to do. That is me. A life of over analyzing every tiny little thing that my brain can possibly think of. I'm sorry David, maybe I am a bitch and in some way I have offended you. I can only hope at the end of the day you can care enough to understand why I present the attitude I do, just as while I am psychoanalyzing I am simply trying to understand how and why you are you.

benisan85745 You are great! I wish you would have been here long ago. There are about 6 people on all of HP I truly enjoy hearing from. You are now on that short list (not like it means much but hey). I can only hope I wake up in the morning hangover free and not regret anything I have said. After all I don't get a night child and husband free often! My goal tonight Drink lots forget more! Have a good night all.

It's crazy how writing here has become part of me.


David Ramses 4 years ago

Benisan, no debate here. I'm not Catholic lol although this conversation does have me as confused as a nun on a honeymoon....


David Ramses 4 years ago

Peeples, I do care:) so long as you are fighting with me you have something else to think about lol


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

*rimshot*...oh, he'll be here all week folks.


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

Ms. Peeples, Ms. Peeples (Nia if you're nasty), man was she a crush of mine....bad!

Well, put your shot glass up, and in Hawai'i, we say "Okole Maluna" ( bottoms up).

I am glad and I feel special to have made The Peeples 'A'- list of approved individuals. I also, have made a small intimate cyber-ohana, I have grown to care about and enjoy reading about them, as they do about me. Be safe, and remember, you really haven't drank to much until your are in your front yard hanging on to the grass for dear life because you are afraid of falling of the earth....and I'm out this b*tch.....!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

....and the jonnycomelately in the ring-side seat cheers for an end-of-game drink.....


benisan85745 profile image

benisan85745 4 years ago from Tucson, AZ.

did you get any blood on you? Ho, violent the conversation, yeah. Remind me never to "question", Ms. Peeples....Evah!!!


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

The talk of choice and freedom in bad things happening really skirts around the issue. Look at smallpox, it is a truly horrible way to die, and it is has nothing to do with a choice anyone made or free will.

The people who wrote the texts that make up the Bible were trying to explain the things going on around them, disease fell into that as a punishment from an invisible sky god for one of the hundreds of sins that as a whole were impossible to avoid; and thus the theory was proven. We now know disease results from organisms that are merely trying to reproduce and survive as we do. So how do we reconcile that with the Bible... we don't. But disease can be explained by...brace yourselfs... evolution.

I believe in a God of sorts, but I see no evidence that humans as a species are favored. Intelligence has done a lot for us; but sometimes I look at the chimp playing in the tree, and look at the man working his butt off to get pieces of paper to trade for things he doesn't really need, and I wonder whose really smarter. Bad things happen because we are just a small part of a large system, and not as special as we like to think.

If you want to dispute that, talk to me like I am a 5 year old dying of leukemia.


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 4 years ago

Our biggest problem as a culture , narrsisism ! Just read the responding posts to any of these forums .BOOOOOOM! It hits you right in the face ! Empathy ? Understanding ? , tolerance ? Right ! Not much of that going on !


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

Almost everyone is narcissistic to an extent. Just look at the act of starting a blog as everyone here has done. We all thought hey, as brilliant/funny/engaging as I am people will love to read the stuff coming out of my head. But true narcissism is seeing other people as merely tools for enjoyment or advancement; it is not the inability to see other points of view as much as it is the inability to fathom that other people live external from your own perception.

As I read comments I try to remember the words on the screen are not randomly generated, they were created by a person who is more than the point of view they are trying to represent. The internet has done a lot to promote dehumanization by providing a forum for people to spread misconceptions and lies. But it has also given rise to places such as this, where you get to see that a person is more than just an atheist or just a christian. I guess you get out of the internet what you look for in it.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

" The internet has done a lot to promote dehumanization by providing a forum for people to spread misconceptions and lies."

From this, I suggest the greatest service we can do for young people in their growing-up process it to teach them to discriminate, i.e., don't take any advert, point of view, political or religious claim to heart, without carefully thinking about it.

Some times we want certainty, of course. Where it's not immediately obvious, we might imagine that certainty exists.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

Well said Jonny!


David Ramses 4 years ago

I, for one, have an extremely bad habit of becoming convinced of something and feeling secure in it; only to begin questioning it later after I blurt it into someone's face and meet the opposing viewpoints in the battlefield of mind and emotion. I often imagine, afterwards, that I feel the same way the pilot who dropped the A bomb on Hiroshima felt after.....I imagine he was totally convinced of the "righteousness" of his mission previous to the destruction and pain it caused all the innocent bystanders. Even to annhilate one's enemy in such a devastating manner is remorseful; if one has a conscience.


David Ramses 4 years ago

manningnd,

I am not narcissistic! I just want what I want regardless of who it hurts, believe I am right and everyone else is wrong and believe it is ok to offend other people to drive my viewpoints home without regard for their feelings and the results of my actions........wait lol jst kdn


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

In your jest I would say you perfectly described the standard political discourse david. Pundits such as Rush Limbaugh (I'm not specifically picking on Republicans Democrats do this too) make a good living attacking people instead of simply saying I disagree with this persons position on this subject matter and here is why. But I can't really blame him because it is the people who compel him by giving financial incentive in the form of ratings to be a prick, for lack of a better word.

I will probably home school my kids because I just don't get the "sit down, shut up, and memorize these facts" idea behind education. Knowledge has never been absolute, even within religion; compare the theologians Origen and Kierkegaard to John Edwards and then to Jerry Falwell and you will see an incredible evolution within Christianity (de-evolution might be a better word). So it is more important to teach methods of learning, reasoning ability, and flexibility; then to instill the capacity to regurgitate data someone feeds you without checking their sources.

Side note: I was actually friends with one of Soren Kierkegaard's direct descendants. Strangely, despite being completely ignorant of his ancestors views, he shared some of the more uncommon ones. He was a great guy but very much a hippie and died of drugs. It's kinds funny though, the changes that take place across the generations within a genetic line.


David Ramses 4 years ago

I completely agree with your education viewpoints. However I have no idea about generational lines. As far as I can tell my bloodline started in 1978, when I was engineered. And though my blood has been spilled on this earth many times, it did not come from it. I was most probably abandoned here by alien scientists from a Planet that consists of nothing but people without the ability to connect with anyone, find friendship, establish brotherhood, or trust in trust.


Dan Barfield profile image

Dan Barfield 4 years ago from Gloucestershire, England, UK

This hub makes a very salient point! The 'problem of evil' argument for the non-existence of God is a strong one in many respects. Unfortunately it doesn't account for the gnostic idea of the 'Creator' just being a really bad egg. He could exist and just be a bloody horrible person. I'm being flippant, of course, but in order to avoid adding reams more to this already heaving comments section I'll put my own experiences of faith, the loss of it, and the development of something else into a hub. I'll get it online in a couple of days. Interesting! Voted up.


manningnd profile image

manningnd 4 years ago

Traditional Gnostics are a rare breed within Christianity, most NeoGnostics focus entirely on the hidden knowledge aspect and don't say much about the mythology surrounding Sophia to which you allude. Even with the popularity of the movie the Matrix, which clearly borrowed from Gnostic mythology. The Architect being the evil creater, Neo being Jesus or Buddha, and the Matrix being the illusionary world we live in.

But yes Gnostics do have a better answer for evil than orthodox Christians. Basically the is one main God who created several lesser gods, one of whom created the Universe we live in, and us. Because this god wasn't perfect, and maybe even evil, our world is not perfect. But we can escape from this world and rejoin God; messengers such as Jesus and Buddha told us the way.


Me 4 years ago

I just want to point something out. Why are you fighting Christianity, Why did you go through all this effort of posting your message, Why if there is no God do you even care about what people say. I think you know God is out there, stop trying to fight Him, give Him a chance, get to know Him. God created a perfect world, but instead of having robots roam the earth He created humans. He did not force them to obey Him, He gave them choice. Humans made the wrong choice and so sin was "born". But just as God is real so is the Devil. He is trying to drag as many people to Hell with him and he knows exactly what our are weaknesses are..... Don't fall into one of his stupid traps.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

"Why are you fighting Christianity?" Because your latest post has displayed everything that sucks about the christian's adamant point of view.

Even when an individual does not accept the existence of the superhuman being as you expound, you as a christian still act as though your god does exist and the atheist is a lesser person because of his/her non-acceptance.

If you could manage it, you would convert the whole world to your way of thinking, wouldn't you? Your way of thinking, your way of seeing things, is the only "right" way.

If you were to change your attitude and accept that your "way" was just one of many "right" ways to live, then I for one would not be "fighting" you.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

Please, let me clarify my previous post.

I am currently living in a place where the population is, probably, 90% convinced by one version of christianity or another, often spiced with other spiritual leanings.

I have no problem with this, or the people who feel they need a focus for their worship. In fact I respect them in their needs and their zeal.

However, I do not need to take on any of that zeal for myself. Most people here would not press their faith onto me anyway. It's part of their way of life.

So my "quarrel" if you can call it that, is with your personal agenda, "Me," and anyone who is an evangelizing christian. If you have a faith which sustains you, fine. That's your stuff. You are entitled to it.

Your personal agenda to incorporate the whole world into your way of "faith" and belief is nothing but arrogance, with the presumption that you are "better" or "superior" for having that particular faith.

In my humble opinion.


peeples profile image

peeples 4 years ago from South Carolina Author

"Why are you fighting Christianity" and "Why if there is no God do you even care about what people say." Both have the same answer for me. Because I have spent the majority of my life with people trying to make me a believer by somehow justifying what my father did by making it one God related thing or another. All in an effort to prove my logical conclusion that there is no God wrong. I truly can not say it any better than jonny just did in saying this:

"Your personal agenda to incorporate the whole world into your way of "faith" and belief is nothing but arrogance, with the presumption that you are "better" or "superior" for having that particular faith."


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 4 years ago from Tasmania

David Ramses, I had unfollowed this Hub for a while and did not see your post of 2 months ago. What you said there I totally respect you for.... its candour and humility. Whether we agree or disagree on other matters, thank you.


ReneeDC1979 profile image

ReneeDC1979 3 years ago from Gaithersburg, Maryland

Hi there. I found your hub very well-written and interesting. Although I am a believer in God, I appreciate others who stand for something and are openly able to express their beliefs, nonbeliefs, and journey for knowledge and understanding. I wrote a response to your hub. Check it out: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/10-Answers...

Keep Hubbing!


healthwealthmusic profile image

healthwealthmusic 3 years ago from Everywhere Online ~ Fingerlakes ~ Upstate New York

I will not say much here, as a lot has already been said. I agree 100% with @FSlovenec. And also, I would like to ask if the hub author has read the account of Job's life in the Bible? It might help explain the reasons for negative happenings in our lives. We believers need to remember that God is not the only force or power in the universe. Satan is very real and has his own fallen angels helping him do his evil works - he goes to & fro on the earth, seeking whom he may devour! But in the end, God is the winner. Satan is mighty, but God is Almighty!


f_hruz profile image

f_hruz 3 years ago from Toronto, Ontario, Canada

What kind of joker is that Mickey Mouse god? If he is "almighty", he should be able to fix the Donald Duck devil in no time - if he can't do it, he should resign, go on food stamps and tell the truth about religion being just a bunch of made up stories for the feeble minded ... ahaha :)


Hot Rod Loves You profile image

Hot Rod Loves You 3 years ago from Houston, TX.

I would suggest that to get some good answers to these questions, a good idea would be to visit a few different Bible preaching churches and ask to speak to the preacher or someone in the church office about these questions. I'm sure they would be happy to meet you and talk with you more.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

Peeples,

I'm Atheist-Christian. Atheist because I've found no evidence of a god except my own life force as Jesus' words indicates was his god. I'm Christian because I have proven the teachings it is said Jesus taught by being a nomad for 36 years which has given me a broader comprehension of what the book says. Life can be completely comprehended as John 1:1-3 say when we use "a verbal mean of explaining" for the definition of "word."

First of all, there is no "free will," the law of karma, also known as reaping what is sown, eliminates free will by dictating what individual each lifeforce will manifest as to produce and pay off their karmic debt. We will live every specie on earth multitudes of times for experiencing every possible experience of both genders, where they have them, every personality and every emotion the producers and receiver of both the desired and undesired experiences had while causing or receiving them.

Because of karma, what is commonly called "the creator god" has to experience everything it subjects experience or it would not be just, therefore, existence's metaphor is the "Phoenix" which live for a time, burns itself up and out of it's ashes rises again when understood explains. What that does is allow every lifeforce to experience being the lifeforce of existence while all other lifeforces are going through the learning experiences. But there' no end to it, once we finish being god we begin forgetting everything learned and go back through the leaning experiences again.

The Adam metaphor of how this civilization began (Genesis 2:4-3:24) began by placing the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" before Adam so he would began liking or disliking half of everything, produce "ignorance" and cause all of man's emotions. Once we overcome believing in good and evil, cut away all attachments and learn to accept the opposites of earth we "graduates" to the next plane. Discarnating and reincarnating ends so we metamorphose the rest of the way through being the lifeforce of existence. No one lifeforce can become the lifeforce of existence until all lifeforces have been this supposed god.

It is like saying our bodies are an eternal existence with multi-billions of different life types in and on it and each life type must experience being in every entity's different positions in the body through reincarnating until it becomes the lifeforce of the entire body itself.

That may be a little vague but http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/vision.htm may give you a more complete understanding of it.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

@healthwealthmusic , Thank you for giving your understanding of this difficult subject. Personal exploration, deep down into the guts of everything, is the way to enlightenment and ALL the great beings (Sages) knew this. Metaphor has been used by them all.

For me that concept of "god" and "satan" are merely metaphors helping us explain the unexplainable.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

1. Why can't God control everything? If he can create an entire world, I don't understand why he can't control it.

Answer, What good is life if someone else is in total control?

2. If God is our father why does he allow "free will" to harm his children. Many people are born into horrible lives before they ever have a chance to make their own decisions. These children are abused or neglected and God does nothing. I understand letting adults be effected by "free will" but I do not understand why God doesn't step in when it comes to children.

Answer, God has created two tools for us to live and experience while in our bodies. They are contrast and comparison. These tools help us spirits experience a bodily experience so that when we all go back to our Father, we will have a better appreciation of His love. This secret can be found in the parable of the prodigal son. We are all prodigal sons sent out in the world to gain this experience. As for free will, I don't believe in such a thing.

3. How can God be loving if he allows number 2? If I allow someone to rape or beat my child I am a horrible person and must not love my child. However if God allows it to happen he is somehow loving?!?!

Answer, if you rape and beat your child for whatever reason, you belong in prison. God will only intervene if asked.

4. The explanation offered by many Christians for child abuse and other bad things is that somehow God is teaching us something or that it is God's plan to make us into a good person. My question here is there has to be a better way to teach a child right? If my child needs to learn manners I don't beat it into him. Why not find a nicer approach to life lessons?

Answer, I was a victim of child abuse, yet I have learned to forgive him who abused me. Is that so bad?

5. How do you believe in something that there is no evidence it even exists. The thing I hear Christians saying is that "We can't see air but we know it's there". True, but it has also been proven the to be there and proven to be the thing that keeps us alive. All "Miracles" can be explained with rational thoughts. So how do you justify belief in something that has never been shown to even be real?

Answer, My life experience has been all the proof I needed to know that my heavenly Father is a real living God, "Blessed are those who have not seen"!

6. How do you explain the multiple impossible things in the bible? I mean everyone knows it is impossible for a dead person to come back to life. How is Jesus any different than any other story about zombies?

Answer, what is for you impossible is not for God.

7. Why do you think your God is the only right one? As an atheist I struggle with this one. If I am wrong and there is a God, How do we know if there is just one God, multiple Gods, which one is the right one? I mean there have been Gods of sorts since pretty much forever. How do Christians justify the fact they pick this one God to worship?

Answer, Isn't one enough!

8. Natural disasters are another thing. Do you think this is God's way of controlling the planet's population or just another thing God chooses to do to his people out of spite? I mean killing thousands of people in a tsunami just doesn't sound like something a loving being would do.

Answer, you profit fleshly things more than what you will inherit in the afterlife. Besides, death comes to us all, some sooner than later.

9. Birth Defects and Child illness. This is one I struggle with very much. With all the children that are born with defects or end up with childhood cancer how do you fit that in with your faith in God? Seems to me that this is something that many say is used to make stronger people. Losing a child builds something in a person so that they can help another parent facing the same problem. But let's be real, if it never happened to begin with then no one would need to be stronger in that way. Why not just keep it from happening?

Answer, why are the atheists who say that God is not real, the first ones to blame God for every mishap.

10. This is my last one because this is the one that I personally have fought with. At the end of the day religion is simply faith with no answers. There is no questioning God. Things happen in his time and way and we are to simply believe and worship. How do you worship someone that lets all of the above happen. How do Christians find faith in God when their child dies, their husband is hit by a drunk driver, their wife has breast cancer? I just don't understand how anyone would choose to love, worship, and believe in something that allows all of this pain and sadness with no explanation. I look at a disabled child and I can't see a real God allowing that to happen and if he did I can't see wanting to worship him when he lets it all happen.

Answer, most of what you said are results of man's science achievements and the consequences that follows them. The thing about religion is that we have enough religion to want to hate and kill one another, but never enough to love another. When I look at an atheist like you, I see God, because God is love and you like all have loved or still do. So why is it so important for you to ask these questions if you so insist that the real living God does not exist? Beliefs and life have one thing in common. Live and let live, and believe and let believe. Peace


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

"Answer, why are the atheists who say that God is not real, the first ones to blame God for every mishap." Poppycock!

Your presumption, SwordofManticorE. You obviously feel superior as a result of your belief and your faith. You are able to preach to us without any fear of being proven wrong or mistaken, because you can always point our questions and doubts into the "lap of your god." You are steeped in religion. There is nothing in your profile that introduces you to us as an all-rounder, integrated human being. So, for me, you are not a person with whom one can discuss things without recourse to "God."

That god is built up in your mind. It is designed and shaped to satisfy your own inner needs. Fair enough, that is your choice, yours to colour and reshape as you wish.

But that mental concoction is not one that you can transfer onto/into any one else's life.

I am atheist, having at one time been a theist, like yourself. Then I could and did evangelise like you are doing. If there was a god to thank, then I could say "thanks for showing me the light." But there is no god, so ....... the light has obviously come from the sun! And the world is beautiful, awesome.


ReneeDC1979 profile image

ReneeDC1979 3 years ago from Gaithersburg, Maryland

bwahaha funny comment jonnycomelately - I have to ask why does SwordofManticoreE have to be fearful of being proven wrong or mistaken?? We shouldn't have fear when asking questions or giving our ideas and opinions - some will like it -some will not - some may prove us wrong on some things-but so what- just as we have free will to believe in God and confess our faith and beliefs without fear -you have free will to type the word Poppycock! Thanks for the laugh and keep hubbing!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

"Poppycock" LOL. Your own ego creates your own belief system my friend, and it is true, athiests are always the first to ask why God allows the suffering in the world, and that in it self is blaming Him. Btw, I don't feel inferior or superior to you or anyone, but I did get the hint that my answers ticked you off? As for religion, my religion is feeding the poor and helpless as best as I can.


peeples profile image

peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina Author

It amazes me how quickly people forget the title of this hub. It's 10 Questions FOR CHRISTIANS. NOT 10 questions for God. I am asking Christians (who believe in a god) for their perspective about their god. I personally am not blaming a God. However my hub was inspired by believers who claim the bad is created by their god to inspire good.

With that said thank you for sharing your beliefs.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

Sorry, Peeples, I didn't realize it didn't include Atheist-Christians. Please forgive my intrusion.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

"As for religion, my religion is feeding the poor and helpless as best as I can."

That's wonderful to hear, SwordofManticorE. I just hope that feeding is a pure one, and not one laced with an ulterior motive. But then, the poor and hungry probably would not mind as long as they cease to be hungry.


peeples profile image

peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina Author

TheoNatureboy I wasn't talking to you. In the next answer down from yours it was asked why atheists were the first to blame god. My reply was to that alone. I'm actually still reading up on some stuff as time permits that you wrote about and will come back to comment once I have a better understanding of what you wrote about.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

I would not have felt you were talking to me but you inserted "(who believe in a god)" which implied me, I had to presume it included me.

I did read that posts, sorry for the mis up.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@jonnycomelately My charities are between me, the recepient and God. I do not try to convert anyone by blackmailing the needy nor am I a bible thumper preaching the false teachings of hell fire to unbelievers.


savvydating profile image

savvydating 3 years ago

The explanation for #4 that you heard from Christians strikes me as wrong and horrible. I've heard New Ager's say that terrible things happen to us because it's a karma thing, but for a Christian to suggest such a thing makes me wonder where they got such an idea. Having said that, I know that many Christians have suffered greatly for their faith. But it was their choice. It was also the choice of their accusers to do horrible things to them.

At any rate, as the Brooks and Dunn songs says: "I'm finding more and more truth in the words written in red. "The song is, I Believe.

Long story short, I listen to the words of Jesus, not those who act like the Pharisees he rebuked. Those people do not represent God well - far from it.

I wish you well in your journey for Truth. Your questioning tells me how much you care about injustice.

Still, in my way of thinking, people are to blame for doing bad things, not God. He doesn't control everything, because he isn't a controller. If he were, everyone would have been zapped out of existence by now. Free will is a gift. It is a respectful way of saying,"Here are the guidelines, if you follow them you and everyone else will be impacted in a positive way. It's your choice. I will not force you."


Que Scout profile image

Que Scout 3 years ago from Sydney Australia

Christianity and other religions serve their purpose well.

People through time have needed to believe in Gods, without Christianity we would have much more crime and disrespect for our fellowmen.

It is pretty much common knowledge that this is why Christianity exists at all, not because any of the Gods are actually real. It is all in the believers mind.

So Christianity serves it purpose, and for this reason I do not condone it.


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 3 years ago

Perhaps in the end One Scout is right , maybe its that simple , Foor those who are in need a blanket for warmth , God is their answer , for the more bitter with life , he is a target , for some of us he is someone to blame for our assorted misfortunes and bitterness. Maybe thats all he is ...everyones answer for thier needs. The atheists the believers !


Sooner28 3 years ago

"How can God be loving if he allows number 2? If I allow someone to rape or beat my child I am a horrible person and must not love my child. However if God allows it to happen he is somehow loving?!?!"

Ah. Great question! Objections like these are why I am an atheist.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Why do athiests demand or question divine intervention for all the most horrific acts against humanity?


peeples profile image

peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina Author

We don't we (as in some atheist) wonder how believers don't. I can't demand intervention from something that doesn't exist.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

That is your opinion and you are intitled to it. Just as the Christian who sang halleluja in the Roman stadium while being ripped apart by a lion, we know that the flesh profits nothing and our rewards will begiven in the reserection because of our faith. This does not mean that you will not recieve rewards for not believing, you will just recieve less and this sadden us, because we desire that all recieve the rewards promised to believers.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

Que Scout, I cannot accept this presumption of yours. "People through time have needed to believe in Gods, without Christianity we would have much more crime and disrespect for our fellowmen."

Certainly, some persons act out their lives better because of their belief/faith etc. However some, because of their passionate/obsessive beliefs turn to force upon others, making them "tow the line," and this shows arrogance in the presumption that they are better than the unbeliever.

Wars have taken place because of fanaticism. Peoples have been oppressed, imprisoned, murdered, because they are not bowing down to the beliefs of others.

Some christian people do have a "good" morality towards others, but I don't think it's as a result of their christianity.... they would probably be "good" people anyway; just their inner character.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@jonnycomelately, before I became a Christian, I was a drunk, street fighter, cheater, thief, liar, and the list is long. So your assumption that we who have a "good" morality towards others doesn't add up. It wasn't until I became a Christian that things changed for me for the better. Yes, there was much persecution in the early church after catholisim hijacked Christianity, but how often do you hear a sane Christian today oppressed, imprisoned, murder, because some are not bowing down to their beliefs? Why don't you just believe in what you believe and let others believe in what they want to believe? You sound like those same Christians trying to force your athiest beliefs on us.


Acbethea profile image

Acbethea 3 years ago from North Carolina

Proverbs 19:3 - "When a man's folly brings his way to ruin, his heart rages against the Lord." When our children reach an age that we think they should make better decisions, we try to let them grow up. Even if they fall down, we still give them room. God gives us free will and allows us that same room. If we choose not to follow him it's really up to us. The bible says that all will not enter the kingdom so as much as I wished you saw things God's way, he has explained that many will not. I do pray that something happens in your life that removes your "Fear" so you can gain some "Faith". Thank you for the post.


Sooner28 3 years ago

The arguments asking about why God doesn't intervene are not asserting that atheists believe God exists and isn't intervening. It's a conditional. If God exists, then such and such should be the case. God should intervene more if he is truly loving or cares about justice at all. The christian has to answer for why the world the way it is when he asserts that God exists, is just, and has revealed himself through scripture. The christian can't just assert something to be the case and not expect people to disagree.


Acbethea profile image

Acbethea 3 years ago from North Carolina

But the Bible explains everything you're suggesting. We as Christians don't feel the need to "justify" our beliefs. The bible tells us "Do not lean to your own understanding." So when it is suggested to we have to make excuses for God really isn't the truth. Our world is the way it is because of the greed, envy, lust and person gain that the flesh desires. God provides us the free will to persue either but not both. I'm sure if you search your past you'll find that God has been loving and caring. Although many refer to those times as luck or maybe even take the credit themselves. The thing is you may never know how often He has intervened in your life. Again, I stop trying to change people's minds, as Christians we are just required to introduce people to God, everything else is up to them.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

@ Sooner28,

The only god I've found to "intervene" is one's own lifeforce which is responsible for the individual being in every situation anyway, so why would it intervene except it has what is called angels to do it because when we become angels we will have to do the same thing for another lifeforce in that particular body at another time.


David Ramses 3 years ago

I have come to the, perhaps misguided - perhaps not, understanding that it is a mistake to think of God as a being. That mistake leads to questions about why this being does not take responsibility for filling the shoes people have given it. Rather than a being, I believe God IS BEING....That being said, if he is being he is the act of being and he is not necessarily a he but an it and it is called life, life-force, etc. Many Christians, including myself, seem to have a bad habit of forgetting what God, in the bible, said of himself when Moses asked "Who are you?" God said, "I am". Following that same line of thinking leads me to believe that God IS your questions in themselves, our experiences, etc..... I recently spent time with a priest from Africa. He told me of the atrocities and genocides he has witnessed and, in his maturity and to his credit, his answer to questions similar to yours (you know, the "where was God when this happened" questions) is that God was suffering the abuse along with the innocent people.......I don't know. I just think we often mistake God for a diplomat, or some other person. When in truth it is taught that God is PERSONIFICATION. God IS and all living things that ARE know the "I AM" even when think they do not. What I agree with non-believers about is that the God many Christians broadcast is not God but an Agenda!


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 3 years ago

I love to watch as the most intellectual minds of the day question the existance of God . Especially here on hubs for some reason ...Some famous dude once said , and I para -phrase " Why do we seem to have the most trouble understanding those who we see as , unlike us !" Tolerance is a lost virtue .....theres not much of that in this hub !


peeples profile image

peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina Author

David, amazingly said and I must say that view is much more easier understood by me than the (shame on me for saying) typical Christian view of an all powerful being. I hope you are well.

Ed, this hub has nothing but tolerance in the article itself. This hub was written at a time when I was truly trying to understand Christians. I sure didn't waste so much time writing it to insult a bunch of people I don't know. I wrote it to have better understanding and in my opinion that is one of the biggest signs of tolerance. With that said I can't speak for the comments section as many of the comments by me and others have been in every direction.


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 3 years ago

Peeples , I find myself responding to comments often more than the hub itself , hence my comment , I truely try to understand those who question ! I do too , but those who attack Christianity with bitterness implied I have no use for . I agree peeples , you need to guestion faith untill you have no questions left , one way or the other , but somehow I believe you would tolerate those who chose faith or not without the bitterness implied by so many non believers ......they are the ones whom I responded too. Not the origional hub ! .....:-}


David Ramses 3 years ago

ahorseback, when Jesus walked the earth he attacked orthodox religion with bitterness implied. He did this because it enslaved people. If Christ were walking the earth today he would be found in dense populations of non-believers showing them love and tolerance and forgiveness. Ever notice how many people he healed in the bible and did not try to convert? People often angrily reject fundamental Christianity because it fails to recognize that Christ is the word of God, not the bible, and the bible is a Christian book. But fundamental Christianity tries to convince people that the bible is the word of God and use it to enslave people to their perceived interpretations and dogmas. "God is Love" and "without Love we are nothing". I find it very illuminating that Christ's mission was not the "Salvation of Souls" but rather to show people how to live in love, tolerance, and forgiveness to come to God. I am a Christian and I myself am guilty of attacking Christianity; especially the 35000 denominations that have popped up in the last 400 years claiming to be the true church even though the bible records Christ setting up His church through St. Peter..........People do not attack Christianity they attack the fundamental Christianity they have been misguidedly preached because it feels like a mouse trap. God bless you. I have learned to think this way too late in the game.


peeples profile image

peeples 3 years ago from South Carolina Author

Ed, I'll admit, I am bitter with SOME Christians. It is a work in progress for me. I am trying to get to a point where I don't have that but am also at a point where I know rationally that the chances of me ever losing all that bitterness is slim to none. I have no problem with live and let live, but when I have to hide my lack of belief for fear of losing family, employees, customers, and associate I realize the problem does not lie with me but those who claim a faith they don't know how to follow. With anything some are good people some aren't. I fail often but I do try to be an accepting person. Always good to have you comment!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

David Ramses , it must be something like a year has gone by since we had some kind of discourse here in Hubpages. Welcome, it's good to see you again.

And thank you for your two posts above. I am in total cohesion with what you have written there. This is amazing, because I think our previous "chats" were somewhat more in disagreement.

The "Is-ness," the consciousness or being-ness of "God," has been the message of all the great sages of whom I am aware: Buddha, Jesus, the Siddhas, presumably Mohammed also. The central fact of the "I AM" embodies all their teachings. Within this understanding is the "salvation" for any of our lives, in whatever way we find useful, individually.


Jmillis2006 profile image

Jmillis2006 3 years ago from North Carolina

I enjoyed reading this hub and have wanted to ask some of these same questions? I find Christians to be very frustrating at times, now let me be clear this is not directed toward all Christians , but it is unfortunate that some people whom call themselves Christian happen to be the most judgmental and intolerant people I know. I always thought Christianity was suppose to be a religion of love.


DommaLeigh profile image

DommaLeigh 3 years ago

I am a Christian and you asked many good points that I have debated with an Atheist friend of mine and some I struggled with myself. Bottom line is it is a matter of faith in what you believe in, is true. Look up the word faith and it reads: Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. I can not make another person believe in god. I can only tell others, who want to hear, how god worked in my life and through me. Out of my six children only three of them are Christian. The other three searched in their hearts to follow a path other than mine, which I accept. It is a personal journey each person must make. It is between them and what ever higher power they have faith in.


Que Scout profile image

Que Scout 3 years ago from Sydney Australia

DommaLeigh - spot on with your comment on Faith.

Hey, one could put their faith in things like money, or sex. They become obsessed and that becomes their religion.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

Domma Leigh,

That's how man keeps us from recognizing what faith really means which is contrary to the Bible's "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) which suggests we have to seek evidence and substance concerning everything we believe. Even Romans 1:20 tells us everything, including the godhead, is recognized by evidence provided by the things made which eliminates our having any excuse, especially the one saying "faith is blind."


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

Haha! Some put their money in sex. Some put their money ON faith. Some put (and see) their sex in religion. Some depend for their money on sex. Some depend on religion for money

Quite a mix really! Take your pick.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

I like that mix, Jonnycomelately.


Que Scout profile image

Que Scout 3 years ago from Sydney Australia

You can't have the mix if you include Christianity. "Thalt shall hold no Gods before me"

:)


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

How wonderful we can have such a diverse set of opinions, all valid, from such diverse points of the world...... Washington DC., Far North China, Tasmania, ...... greetings to you all, with great respect.

I must get out of the house now, will catch up with your replies later.


gconeyhiden profile image

gconeyhiden 3 years ago from Brooklyn, N.Y.C. U.S.A

WOW congradulations peeples on all these comments your hub created. I live with a "Buddhist" and even though I find Buddha very acceptable as a thought process my Buddhist wife believes in stuff even Buddha doesnt believe in. This is because her Thai culture is founded NOT in Buddhism but in animism and Thai Buddhism for most is a synthesis of primitive animistic beliefs to then which Buddhism was overlaid. The local people in S.E. Asia would have it no other way even though this runs contrary to Buddhas thought process. Religion is full of this mess. That is old baggage that is very tough to discard because it comforts people. This is all about FEAR plain and simple and the idea of God is all over the place.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

gconeyhiden,

If people use the things made to comprehend life (Romans 1:20) we would all have an animistic view of life. According to the made things animalistic life is the most logical. They don't require clothes, money, shoes, killing of their kind except to straighten the group as some carnivores do and so many other things man do. However, the things man make are mechanically our own abilities such as computers our minds, cameras our eyes, recorders our ears and the like.


celafoe profile image

celafoe 3 years ago from Planet earth. between the oceans

I can answer all 10 of your questions, but waste my time? You said you dont want answers.


ParadigmEnacted profile image

ParadigmEnacted 3 years ago

A lot of people assume that if they don't understand or agree with what God allows, then he doesn't exist. Westerners are often conditioned to polarize certain concepts from an early age, such as free-will vs. predestination without realizing that reality is a combination.


Shadow Jackson profile image

Shadow Jackson 2 years ago from Washington, DC

I don't know what to say that has not already been said. Faith is like one of those things where, you either have it or you don't.

I believe in God, not, because of what He can do for me, but because of what the rest of the world can't. God is personal to me and it's hard to explain outside of an in depth and sincere conversation.

I hope you find the answers you're looking for. :)


kenneth avery profile image

kenneth avery 2 years ago from Hamilton, Alabama

Hello, peeples (judging by the amount of contents, you must be a terrific writer)

This is an excellent piece of writing. Amazing, to be precise.

I loved every word of it. Voted up and all the choices because you deserve it. You have such

a gift for writing. Just use it without a selfish motive and no telling at how far you will go

and how many people you will touch.

I am going now to leave you some fan mail and become a follower.

I cordially invite you to read one or two of my hubs, and be one of my followers.

I am so honored to meet you and follow you.

Sincerely,

Kenneth/ from northwest Alabama


Travis Wakeman profile image

Travis Wakeman 2 years ago

1. Because if God were to control everything then humanity would not have free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. A world where human beings are able to freely love is superior to a world in which human beings are nothing but sock puppets.

2. Do you want to pick a specific example? In many cases it is the sinful nature of man that is the cause for a great degree of human suffering. If God were to swoop down every single time that something bad were about to happen to anyone, would we be truly free? No of course not.

It would be like if you gave 20 dollars to a friend but then had exclusive control over how she spent it. Is it really her money if she has to get permission from you before she can spend it?

If God were to appear every single time to prevent us from choosing evil, then we would believe in God out of fear rather than out of love.

3. I am reminded about the child whose parents took him to the dentist to get his cavity treated. Not understanding that the drill was necessary in order to prevent a greater harm, the child thought that his parents were evil and sadistic for allowing the dentist to use the drill on him.

That is a parallel example for what you are telling me here. Besides that, you presuppose an objective moral standard, the likes of which can only come from God.

4. This is another example of the same. The child supposing that there must be some other way to get his cavity fixed other than facing the dentists drill.

5. On the contrary, plenty of evidence points towards the existence of a God. I would refer you to natural theology which has given us things like the Kalam Cosmological argument, Aquinas' First Mover argument. Quantum mechanics discovered that the presence of a -conscious- observer affects the nature of matter (i.e. we aren't just bits of matter blindly bumping around). The evidence is there for those who want to explore it. I would be happy to talk about his more if you would like.

6. And how do you know that it is impossible for a dead person to come back to life unless you take that as an assumption? If God is the creator of the universe, then suspending the laws of nature in order to resurrect someone is a mere pittance.

7. Because I have examined other religions, and their grounding is not nearly as firm both in theological consistency and in historical basis. We have never made an archaeological discovery that contradicts anything in the bible. The textual reliability is incredibly accurate given what it is.

8. God doesn't have any moral obligations to human beings, and in any case this falls into the same category as number 4.

9. This again falls into the same category as number 4. How do you derive the idea that every child "ought" to be born a certain way without presupposing an objective standard?

10. "At the end of the day religion is simply faith with no answers."

I disagree. You seem to be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "faith" here. This entire question seems to be a comment on the previous ones rather than an independent question of its own right.

I would recommend this book which would supplement what I have said here: http://www.amazon.com/Godforsaken-Things-Happen-th...


word55 profile image

word55 2 years ago from Chicago

Hi Ms peeples, You've written a very challenging hub. I've been geared and reared to believe in God as much as I do. When I 1st learned about God, I only thought there was one. I have testimonies of God's goodness. When I was caught between a life and death situation on more than one occasion, I turned to God, prayed and each time my life was spared. I'm used to depending on God and now, for everything. I don't knock you at all for how you feel and believe. That is your prerogative. I am glad you have a loving and understanding husband that happens to be a Christian. It is because of your him that you are protected and shielded by God. See the following:

1 Corinthians 7: 12-14 (Paul's words)

New International Version (NIV)

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. May God continue to bless you and your family :-)


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 2 years ago

God could control everything but then what would be the point of this existence. My favorite song on the radio right now answers many of your questions...he did do something...he made you. It is our job to take whatever we can from our lives and use it to help others. I struggle with all the same thoughts and I have believed in my God my whole life. I have been angry with him and cried out to him. I am only human but if I can do something or say something at just the right moment that helps another human being then I am doing my part in the body of Christ. Blessings to you and your family :)


kenneth avery profile image

kenneth avery 2 years ago from Hamilton, Alabama

Hi, tammy,

I try to abstain from discussions on God and The Bible. I do love Him, and have a relationship with Him and I praise Him for loving someone like me.

I believe in my case, that God "controls," my walk with him--not on me all of the time pointing out my flaws for if He did that, He would be busy everyday, but the scriptures say, "A righteous man's steps are ordered by the Lord," meaning that if I am obedient to His will, He will watch out for me when I cannot see harm in the things ahead.

Thanks for allowing me to post.


peeples profile image

peeples 2 years ago from South Carolina Author

"God could control everything but then what would be the point of this existence." Thanks for the comment Tammy, but I think this sentence expresses much of my issue. Why can't we all be individuals free of making different choices without having the choice of doing bad? I mean after all, are all law abiding citizens exactly the same? I don't think I will ever understand or feel the connection necessary for belief. I'm glad it helps so many. I just can't find logic in it. Kenneth you are very kind.

To everyone I apologize if I don't respond a lot here anymore. I have been attempting to avoid the drama. I know to many other atheist they would not understand, but I have found myself on a journey of learning my roots of Judaism. While I doubt the belief will ever fully be there, the fellowship is important to me. Learning makes me feel comfortable and the Jewish people, so far, seem very okay with my constant questioning of everything. Thank you to all of you who comment without judgment. It is greatly appreciated even if we can not find common ground in religion.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 2 years ago from Tasmania

peeples, I just send blessings upon you in the journey. I have stayed to follow this this thread of yours for over 2 years now. Initially it had some good discussion, although heated maybe. But those folk who hold a strong christian belief will never change their position. I will never change my position because such belief(s) are of no interest to me now. Life has moved on and many who contributed have moved on, too.

So I am going to unfollow this thread of yours now.

Bon voyage.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 2 years ago

Peeples, Christians are all different...a personal relationship with God is like a personal relationship with your parents or very close friends who know you and know what makes you tick but of course even more close because He knows us better than we know ourselves. He knows our motivations and our limitations. He did create the perfect world...the Garden of Eden but we chose our on way and this is exactly the struggle that continues to this day and too the very end...becoming harder and harder in the last days because of delusions of security in money and power..in technologies and scientific intelligence...in a world of commercialism and materialism.

I hope I haven't offended I just felt the need to share a little more and I am unfortunately not as eloquent with words as I would wish to be. Your journey is your own.


word55 profile image

word55 2 years ago from Chicago

Hi tammy, I 2nd your emotion here. We must pray for those who don't understand what having a personal relationship with God is all about. No one should deny Him if they haven't tried Him. I wrote that line in one of my songs.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 2 years ago

Hi Word...Thank you and yes we must pray without ceasing. This world is a mess!I like that line...Christian music has grown so much these days and brings me so much joy and peace. I have always connected with music. The great poets of my generation guided me through teen angst and largely shaped my world views. It's so nice that today there is Christian music on the radio that rocks! :)


word55 profile image

word55 2 years ago from Chicago

Amen to your last comments tammy, Yes, I compose Christian music and write Christian poetry too. The poetry is here on hp... We want peeples to know that prayers are going up for her and others. I pray that she will start noticing and eventually aknowledge that her blessings are from the Lord. She is blessed to have such a husband :-)


Kenneth Avery 2 years ago

Hello, Tammy,

I wanted you to know that I wasn't starting any drama. I do not do that in real life. I have had enough drama inside my own family to do me a lifetime and I am referring to my late sister who never saw how Good God was to her and all of us.

God bless you, dear friend for your good work.


tammybarnette profile image

tammybarnette 2 years ago

Hi Kenneth, I understand completely. Family drama is the hardest..we love our families so deeply which can cause so much pain. May God Bless you and your family:)


peeples profile image

peeples 2 years ago from South Carolina Author

In the last few weeks I have given great consideration to deleting this article due to it having the lowest score of all my hugs, dragging my hub score average down, despite having regular traffic and over 300 comments. I truly appreciate those who have followed it and please don't think I do not appreciate the kind words. In the end though I'm pretty sure I was born an atheist, and I will likely die one, one day. Still deciding if it's worth keeping this article up, but before I did anything I at least wanted to say thank you to those of you who provided kind words.


Jay C OBrien profile image

Jay C OBrien 2 years ago from Houston, TX USA

Wow, what a hub. I can't even read all the comments. Most of your original questions can be answered with a couple of ideas:

1. Reincarnation and Karma and

2. Projection of our ideas into the situation.

For proof I will refer you to Edgar Cayce and the Association for Research and Enlightenment (ARE). Edgar Cayce proved ESP exists by giving medical readings at a distance. We are energy, not the material body. A belief in only a material body is Atheism. Belief in a spirit is belief that we will continue to exist as indestructible energy.

Whatever the mind of a soul dwells upon it becomes, for Mind is the Builder. EC.


C.V.Rajan profile image

C.V.Rajan 24 months ago from Kerala, India

Actually, your questions require a very earnest and sincere study of religion and a guidance from a true spiritual Guru.

Religion is out and out based on faith. By gaining that faith and by silencing the urge to seek logical answer for everything, if your life is going to become more peaceful, balanced, a lot more meaningful, a lot more reassuring, then there is really wrong to resort to some faith.

If Christianity does not give the right answers (if you so think), go and find out whether a religion like Hinduism offers any convincing answers for you.


Jay C OBrien profile image

Jay C OBrien 24 months ago from Houston, TX USA

C.V.Rajan:

"Religion is out and out based on faith. By gaining that faith and by silencing the urge to seek logical answer for everything, if your life is going to become more peaceful, balanced, a lot more meaningful, a lot more reassuring, then there is really wrong to resort to some faith."

Faith follows proof. I had 5 verified telepathic experiences in my teens. That proves ESP exists and we are some form of energy. Research Silva Ultramind and The Association for Research and Enlightenment for further proof.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 23 months ago

Great list of questions Peeples! Here are my answers:

i. He certainly could if we opted to.

i.b. God certainly does help does who love him without infringing on their free will.

i.c. God certainly does have self-control.

ii. Free will doesn't harm us, we harm ourselves, most of the time, by the bad choices we knowingly make.

ii. b. Children are their parents' responsibility and most of these do not want God interfering in their lives.

iii. See ii.b.

iii.b. See i.b.

iv. You've been lied to. God does not cause anyone any harm. Jehovah God most certainly has found a loving way to instruct us and He does so through the Bible.

v. If exceptional intellect is required to merely duplicate designs and systems present in nature ( Biomimetics ) then much more the original being replicated. Creation is thus proof of an Almighty Creator. To put it another way, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith are simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God's existence: http://bit.ly/1197U6R

vi. Not so. There have been many cases of dead people coming back to life: http://abcn.ws/1pfyXx2 http://bit.ly/UvVeey http://abc11.tv/1rPKkg7 http://dailym.ai/1qD2Mv4

vi.b. Nope.

vi.c. Zombies are fiction. Jesus was a real man.

vii. Evidence. There is evidence for the reality of Jehovah God while there is zero evidence for all others.

viii. Neither. Jehovah God is not responsible for any of the many evils that befall man.

ix. These sad events are the result of man's choice to live independent of God: http://bit.ly/11EyvgO

x. I disagree. Faith is not blind. It is "the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.” — Hebrews 11:1.

Take for instance our sun. It appears revolve around the earth— soaring in the east , rolling through the skies , and afterwards setting in the west . Nevertheless , proof from astronomy together with math makes clear that the earth is

not the center of the solar system . As you got acquainted with that evidence and then accepted it as a reality , you cultivated the faith that the earth revolves around the sun— in spite of what your sight tells you . Your faith is not blind . To the contrary , it provides you with the ability to see and understand things as they undoubtedly are , not simply as they appear to be .

And so , genuine faith is dictated by good reason together with facts , not on mysteries or bewilderment . Precisely what proof , then , are you able to employ to grow your faith in All-Loving God ? Everything you need to know about God and his purposes can be found in the instruction manual he left you - the Bible.

x.b. But there is an explanation and it's a satisfying one. See ix.

This was fun! I hope you've found my answers to at least be thought provoking :)


Hello! 23 months ago

The reason why there is so much suffering in this world is because Adam and Eve sinned. Sin means like breaking a law or rule. And a person who breaks a rule must be punished. Like a man who commits robbery must be punished. Now if God knew this why did he let this happen? God knew this would happen that's why God made a promise to Adam and Eve that her seed would bruise Satan's head and he would bruise his heel. Her seed is Jesus Christ. Christ means "the Anointed One" in Greek btw. Even though we humans suffer God promised that in heaven we will suffer no more. No more pain, suffering, and God would remove every tear from us. The pain in this world is nothing compared when we are with him. Now God will judge everyone justly. Now about God's existance, many Christians aren't taught to give a good reason for what they believe, but I'm gonna give you a reason why the God of the Bible exist. Without him the laws of logic would never exist. They're immaterial, universal, always true and don't change whit him time. God is also immaterial, always true, is omnipresent, omnipotent and can never lie. But in a naturalistic worldview everything is material, always evolves, always changes within time and can't explain how it came to be! Only God of the Bible can account for them and no other. I almost forgot to tell you what they are. They're laws that helps us think rationaly. Animals can't. If they did they would be like us very smart but are only programmed to survive. Now one more thing about the evidence that seems to contradict the Bible. Radiometric dating has already been debunked. I would love to explain more but this would be too long to read for many and I'm afraid that not many of you might read this. I hope I've answered your questions. You can go to answersingenesis.org for more answers. God bless.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

No criticism for you posting here at all, Hello, your comments are welcomed. But one small thing you said really hits the nail on the head:

" Animals can't [think rationally]. If they did they would be like us very smart but are only programmed to survive."

Do you really think it's rational to depend upon ancient texts, written for ancient peoples, in jargon and metaphor that only they would fully understand?

Do look down upon "animals," without seeing your own instinctive actions and reactions reflected in those animals?

Do you put the confused, doctrinaire, religious rubbish preached by some folk as being a sound and optimistic way forward?

Count me right OUT of the biblical perceptions and those of fanatical religion.


Hello! 23 months ago

If naturalism is true what's bad about looking down on animals? If we're animals who cares. If it's for survival why should we care for them? If naturalism is true what's good or bad? Everybody would be doing what they want to do in their own eyes. Why don't we take wolves to jail they supposedly murder when kill their prey or what about lions? Or is that good? God created animals for our benefit to care for them and some so we can eat but in the beginning it wasn't like that. Only the God of the Bible can account for morality because he knows everything what's good and bad. He's always true. Also I forgot to mention if all those ancient text are lies what's bad about lying to people if it's beneficial for our survival? I'm just trying to show that God exist although everyone knows that in their heart of heart he does exist. Only the God of the Bible can make sense for everything we see. But if I'm wrong tell me what's wrong.


Hello! 23 months ago

Sorry animals can't think.


peeples profile image

peeples 23 months ago from South Carolina Author

"Sorry animals can't think." Seriously?!? Apes, Monkeys, Dolphins, dogs? No thought at all?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

Hello, if you believe that your God made this world, when are you going to see "His" world as an integrated, beautiful, functional, awesome creation? When are you going to do everything possible, in your own life, to protect and nurture it?

Don't you think every bit of your life needs looking at, and honing to perfection, before you run out of time and before the world dies because of your negligence? You are not the Lord and Master. You are the servant, the animals are equally part of the scene. As an animal, you and I fit in. We need to see this clearly, as equals.

Open your eyes and your "I" to find the answers.


Mollie 23 months ago

I am a Christian. I just wanted to say was Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan and brought sin into the world. So the reason people do bad things is because we have free will. Our God gives us free will. God has a plan. I believe because I have faith. There is so much proof. There is examples in the Bible. But if you want a more modern book read No Longer a Slumdog by K.P. Yohannan. There is so much proof of how people pray for the impossible to happen and the impossible happens because of their prayer to God.

God Bless You


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Guys the bible speaks very highly of animals. God even describes his own qualities as that of animals, for example his foresight is like that of an eagle. In Romans Paul says that gods qualities canbe clearly seen from his creations. Animals have an in built wisdom that we can't even begin to match but we also a wisdom that they could never have too. Humans are the only proof that a god might not exist because we don't follow a logical pattern like the animal kingdom and the biosphere.


Hello! 23 months ago

Peeples - what I mean is that if naturalism was true that we came from natural processes and everything we say is just chemicals reacting in our brains then everything we're saying is not really because we are reasoning but we say what we do because it's a survive value to helps us survive. Sort of like a robot. Also the laws of logic would not exist because they're immaterial, universal, and don't change within time. I forgot to explain that the laws of logic are laws like the law of non-contradiction. If it didn't exist we would be contradicting and it would be impossible to reason with other people.

Jonnycomelately - of course I'm a servant. A servant of God. I'm just trying to show that the God of the Bible does exist. I really believe that the Christian worldview is defendable. There's evidence for it and arguments for it. I know for certain that what we've been taught in school is not true, the theory of evolution and Big Bang. I believe that I've given very good arguments. I can show you that Radiometric dating methods aren't reliable and many other things too even though I don't know everything I can try to answer some.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Hello!

The theory of evolution and the Big Bang are true to an extent but that doesn't mean that they are in any way inconsistent with the belief in God.

The Big Bang theory is really massive evidence for God, many scientists where opposed to the Big Bang theory because "it gave too much weight to the theory of an omnipotent being".

The theory of evolution is having to change massivey since darwins day as reductionism becomes increasingly less plausible, molecular evolution is non existent because all of the smaller molecules of life are irreducible complex not to mention the mathematical impossibility of life coming about by chance.

Humans sharing 99% of Dna with chimps has been proven irrelevant thanks to alternative splicing which shows us that a dna molecule can act in thousands of different ways depending on which proteins are passing through.

Evolution is true in the sense that living things adapt to their environment, this is by no means random and it has a wisdom built into it called natural selection which "selects" which mutations to keep and which to get rid of.

Guys Karl Marxs communism sounded like a great idea until it was tested out and failed, don't you think the same should be said for bro Darwinian evolution?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

But was not Karl Marx's communism simply a very reasonable and rational response/reaction to the c..p imposed upon ordinary people (who were the ones to do all the dirty donkey work on behalf of the "upper classes,") by educated people?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Karl marx had his anger directed at the wrong people, the middle classes (bourgeoisie). What recent history has proven is that it's not the middle classes that take advantage of the working class but its actually a very small number of power crazy people at the very top who own 90% of the wealth on this world.

My point is that yes karl marx's communism is a great idea, just like evolution BUT it certainly isn't the full story and needs to be allowed to be added to, otherwise there is no way we can progress.

To a lot of people jonny neo darwinism is a sacred thing that must not be challenged, if you do then you're an ignorant idiot who believes in a seven day creation...simple. I don't think that attitude is allowing the theory of evolution to, well, evolve do you?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

i meant to say that karl marxs idea is great in theory and revolutionary for its time, but it's not the full story


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

I agree that one needs to keep an open mind to any suggestion that is put with coherence and good sense.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Good :)


kenneth avery profile image

kenneth avery 23 months ago from Hamilton, Alabama

Dear peeples,

On Dec. 31, 2014

"I pray that you and everyone on this hub will have THE BEST new year EVER. Keep up the fantastic writing and know that I am always in your corner and pulling for you."


peeples profile image

peeples 23 months ago from South Carolina Author

Thank you very much Kenneth. Greatly appreciated! Happy New Year!


Hello! 23 months ago

Happy New Years to everyone! :D

Dannytaylor02 -

The whole Bible must be true. If one doesn't believe in the Bible and adds man fallible ideas then one is undermining the Word of God. If the beginning isn't true why would the rest be?

Both theories contradict the Bible. For example the Bible says that thorns and thistles appeared because Adams disobedience, so before there wasn't any and it was a perfect creation, Genesis 3:8. Also when Jesus said in Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female". From the "beginning of creation", Jesus also believed in a young earth and that humans were created from the beginning.

Also there are scientific problems. All Radiometric Dating Methods have any of these assumptions or a combination of them:

1) how do they know how many parent and daughter atoms were in the beginning or the starting conditions?

2) how do they know there hasn't been contamination throughout the thousands or millions of years?

3) how do they know the decay rate has always been the same in the past? Saying that the decay rate was the same in the past because of today's current rate is circular reasoning.

There's no evidence for any. Just assumptions. I hope this helps.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Hello!

I think you need to look at the Big Bang theory, it talks exactly about a beginning of the universe just like in the bible so believing in the bible and the Big Bang theory is not only acceptable but very advisable:)

As far as you're other comments go I think you are just arguing on a silly premise. I will accept that the carbon dating isn't fully accurate, I also don't think that humans came from apes and that we have only been around since Adam.

I will not go into a young earth debate with you because you are so wrong if you think that, from a biblical, scientific and a common sense point of view and you're really discrediting the term "creationist" by arguing for it


Hello! 23 months ago

Dannytaylor02

Sorry if I've offended you.

I've given scientific evidence and shown you in the bible why it's not true. But where am I wrong? Can you show me the errors I've done? Do you believe what Jesus said in Mark 10:6?

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female".


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

@Hello, when you come to this subject with the presumption that your beliefs in "God" and all your interpretations from the bible are sound, and believable, then there can be no scientific reasoning, because all you are doing is basing every one of your points of view upon those beliefs.

That's fair enough, you have come to those conclusions of your own free will. However, you can arrive at no "scientific proof." You can interpret to your satisfaction, to the point you feel it confirms your beliefs.... but you cannot "prove" any of it to others.

Please tell what is your motivation when speaking to Dannytaylor02? Is it simply a sharing of your views? Or is it an attempt to convert Danny into a believer like your self?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Hello!

You haven't offended me :)

it is a well established theological fact that the word 'day' in the bible refers to an extended period of time.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that the big bang theory and 'in the beginning' can be easily used together. Science doesn't explain how anything came about, all it does is explain whats already here.

Why do you think that the god of eternity was in such a rush to create our world and everything in it?

@jonnycomelately i'm already a firm believer in the god of the bible, jehovah. what you said isn't true about there is no scientific proof for what we believe, there is plenty of scientific proof but also an absolutely vast archive of historical proof too. The funny thing is that people use the same things for proof of their own interpretation of the evidence, for example i would say that the universe an everything in it is proof of a god but you would say vice versa.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

No, I don't argue that question of "proof of a creative god," for want of a better term.

I have always held out the possibility of some kind of force or influence outside of our own dimension of existence. In the same way that a beautifully crafted table-top cannot have any consciousness of the carpenter who made it.... two different planes of existence.

Similarly, an ant apparently does not have any idea of your's and my existence. There is a distinct difference of dimension and circumstances of life itself.

What I do reject, totally, is any human idea put out there about a judgmental god, that sits somewhere upon high, looking down upon you and me, ready to judge and punish for eternity.

That is utter rubbish, concocted by all manner of humans solely for the purpose of controlling others.

If you, as a "believer" are one of those budding controllers, then you and I are at opposite ends of the football pitch.

Of course I respect you for for whatever you wish to believe.... but your beliefs are just that... not fact, not proven, not substantiated beyond the workings of your mind.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Jonnycomelately

Thanks for your kind words.

I think that i know what you're talking about when you say "controlling people" and especially in a lot of religion and I support that view.

I would never judge anyone because that's beyond my capabilities and as Jesus said "he that has not sinned, let him cast the first stone.

I do think there is a certain stAndard that people need to comply with to be moral beings, and I believe that moral standard can be found in the bible.

God is the ultimate judge, never think that he wants to judge though because he didn't create humans with wicked traits we got there on our own


ahorseback profile image

ahorseback 23 months ago

I really believe that some peoples closed minds will not allow them to keep an open mind enough to accept SOMEONE ELSE"S leap of faith . Because Christianity is quite simply that , if your mind and soul is of a test tube mentality , so be it , if your needs are for forensic proof , so be it . If you've got a CSI mind , the faith based religion may never be yours . Yet you have to allow others to have faith to believe , if you can't then you are simply hypocritical towards others .


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 23 months ago from Tasmania

@ahorseback, yes, I agree with what you say there, and maybe I do come over as hypocritical and intolerant of others.

But all the time I suspect that a religious opinion treats my non-belief as inferior; any time there is a statement that my way of life is somehow "evil" or "sinful" and to be forbidden because of some interpretation of that book of ancient scriptures; at those times I will always put my word in to say Stop! I will not Stoop to those religiously extremist demands.

I respect that "leap of faith," if the person taking it respects my position as equally valid.


Jay C OBrien profile image

Jay C OBrien 23 months ago from Houston, TX USA

Try studying Telepathy or ESP instead of "religion." I have had several Verified telepathic experiences in my teens. Also research the reading of Edgar Cayce.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 23 months ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

@ahorseback

Can i ask you what you mean by christianity is a leap of faith?


peachpurple profile image

peachpurple 19 months ago from Home Sweet Home

well, i believe you have a lot of answer from the comments I read, I am a catholic, I don't have all the answers either, just believe


TonyDan profile image

TonyDan 15 months ago from Toledo, Ohio

Peeples, reading your question today and finding out you were an atheist led me to look at your profile out of curiosity and see this hub. Let me start by saying your questions have legitimate merit. As a Christian and a minister I will be the first to tell you no one has all the answers to your questions or any questions that anyone may have about Christianity or belief in God. And in all honesty your description of yourself sounds more like an agnostic than an atheist because you seem to be willing to believe there is a God if it can be proven to you. In no way can a Hub comment section provide the information you may need in your quest but I will add my two cents for what it is worth. First there has to be a reasonable explanation for everything we see and know exists and the Big Bang theory falls woefully short of that explanation. To say there was nothing then nothing exploded and became something takes more faith to believe in than believing in God. Even though we cannot see God per se we can see evidence of him. The good that is in the world is evidence of God. The beauty that is in the world is evidence of God. Nothing just happens. Science tells us for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and we all know every action must be initiated by something or someone. Everything has an origin. Nothing just pops into existence. Everything on this planet that was not part of the planet was created by someone on the planet. So where did the planet come from? Could it be someone created it too? There are too many things in this world that are not explained by rational thought. How does an airplane crash kill everyone on board except an infant? There is no rational explanation for that. Could it be a supernatural force that we can't see covered it? People believe in ghosts but don't believe in God. Why? People believe in planets and solar systems that they themselves have never seen but are willing to believe others who claim to have seen them. Why? Why is it so easy for people to believe in other things that they have not seen but not in God? Maybe because belief in those things will not cause them to have to change their way of living. There is good and bad in this world but do they both come from the same source? Rain comes from the clouds and light from the sun but if a person didn't look up they might think they both come from the same place since they both come from above. I will admit the world can be a confusing place but there are some obvious explanations for the things that happen if we look deep enough. belief in God requires a person to go beyond their realm of existence into a place that is out of reach of their five senses but there are things that happen in this world that require us to do the same thing. There are things that happen that we simply have to admit are beyond our comprehension. God just happens to be one of those things.


Jay C OBrien profile image

Jay C OBrien 15 months ago from Houston, TX USA

You had a very good question:

2. If God is our father why does he allow "free will" to harm his children? Many people are born into horrible lives before they ever have a chance to make their own decisions. These children are abused or neglected and God does nothing. I understand letting adults be effected by "free will" but I do not understand why God doesn't step in when it comes to children. Should all children not be given the opportunity to start out life with positives?

I have lived through and seen many examples of this problem. There are three theories.

1. Atheism, life without an afterlife, which provides no explanation for child abuse/neglect.

2. A single life with an afterlife, (mainline Christianity) which provides no explanation for child abuse and

3. Multiple lives with reincarnation and Karma. Reincarnation at lease provides a framework for your answer. People Chose to be born among those who would abuse them for several reasons, some karmic and some not. Perhaps the child chose to teach the parent a lesson on love and faith.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 15 months ago from Tasmania

When "God" is the pigeon hole for everything that is beyond your comprehension, that is a huge convenience.

Each to their own pigeon hole.


TonyDan profile image

TonyDan 15 months ago from Toledo, Ohio

Jonnycomeltely since I was responding to the questions posed by the author of this Hub I will not respond to your remark which appears to be an attempt to either start a debate or get in a sarcastic jab at what I addressed to another individual. So good day sir. Peeples I hope my comments shed some light on your dilemma.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 15 months ago from Tasmania

Peeples said, in her Hub: "..... I truly do not understand how people believe in a God. Understanding isn't a requirement, but it does make living with a Christian easier."

TonyDan, my comment most certainly was not sarcastic. My comment is an attempt to help understand why people might believe in God. Thus I claim it is responding to Peeples' questions.

Tony, your comments have not really confronted and responded freely to all those questions which Peeples has asked. All you have done is don your minister's cap and try to convince her that she should become a christian. I cannot speak for Peeples, but would suppose that is not what she is asking for.

If you cannot step outside of your role as a christian minister, then perhaps you cannot offer anything new for Peeples to consider.... at least not anything very helpful, because have you not considered she has already address the points you have raised?

When you counsel any of your parishioners, is the christian message the only way you can address their life difficulties? Are you not able to broaden your mind; try see the person's needs from their point of view, not yours?

I am not for one moment trying or wishing to change your christian faith from what it is now. That is purely your business, none of mine.

But the narrow view of life is hardly going to help join us in mutual understanding.

Retrieving something from the God Pigeon Hole occasionally can be enlightening.

At least, that's my honest view.


TonyDan profile image

TonyDan 15 months ago from Toledo, Ohio

Whether I addressed Peeples questions or not is none of your business sir. That is for her to decide as I was talking to her and her alone. If you do not understand the basic precepts of conversation let me help you. Just because you are within earshot or view of what someone said to another person does not give you permission to join in the conversation. The very first word of my comment (Peeples) clearly identifies who I was addressing. I do not care to know nor need to know your feelings about my comments to her. So again Good Day sir.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 15 months ago from Tasmania

In a public forum, how do you imagine you can speak to one person, and one alone?

I do not need anyone's permission to join in the conversation. I certainly give great respect to Peeples, because I have watched her communicate here in the forums numerous times. I also have great respect for her questions. They deserve a respectful response. Trying to evangelize is not a respectful response in my view. But then I am just a simple a-theist person and way inferior to anyone who claims to have a relationship with God.

Good night to you Sir.


peeples profile image

peeples 13 months ago from South Carolina Author

I haven't checked in on this hub in quite a while. I must admit I simply don't have the energy most days to be able to debate as well as I once could. However I have to admit there are these early mornings, after taking my meds, when I have a bit of an energy spike and come to these types of hubs to see what has been said.

I appreciate what any well intended person posts, just want to make sure that is heard before I write my next sentence.

"First there has to be a reasonable explanation for everything we see and know exists and the Big Bang theory falls woefully short of that explanation." Tony I feel this exact same way, except replace the words Big Bang Theory with the word God. You say you see the evidence everywhere. I see the evidence of a lack of supernatural being/god everywhere. You say the good in the world is evidence in the good in the world, but what about ALLLLLLL the bad? If you can credit your god with the good, can you also credit him with the bad? I simply don't understand how anyone chooses to believe the nice parts are proof of a god, but then blame people for the bad.

Again, I do appreciate the attempt, I just don't understand.

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