John 3:1 Meet Nicodemus and an overview of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots

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John 3:1 "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council."




Nicodemus was a member of the Jewish ruling council. The Jewish court system was call the Sanhedrin and consisted of 23 judges ruling in each city throughout Israel. Living in Jerusalem as he did, Nicodemus would have been a member of the Great Sanhedrin. This would have been equivalent to our Supreme Court. It consisted of 71 members who held court in the temple every day except for festivals and the Sabbath.


Nicodemus was also a Pharisee, a strict follower of the Law. Now the law came to them from God through Moses, and was written in the five books of the Torah; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These are the same books at the beginning of our Old Testament today. Nicodemus was also careful to keep the Mishnah, or the oral law which God gave Moses. Along with all its interpretations, clarifications, applications and commentary which had been collected over the years. All this analysis was important for defining the oral laws in order to properly keep the commandments of the Torah. After all, they believed that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous so they better know what He expected. Later this would all be written down in the Talmud, but Nicodemus, like any good Pharisee, had it memorized. With their extensive knowledge of the Law, the Pharisees were the lawyers and scribes of the day. They were democratic and religious leaders and as the teachers of the law in the synagogues, they held the most influence over the people. The Pharisees also believed in resurrection from the dead and the existence of spirit beings, such as angels.


The Pharisees were not the only group of religious leaders at the time of Jesus. Another powerful sect was called the Sadducees. They were the priests and political leaders. Although not all priests were Sadducees, the High Priests generally were. It was their job to take care of the temple. Unlike the Pharisees, who were from the lower classes and adhered strictly to the Jewish laws, the Sadducees were all from the wealthy, upper class. They embraced the Hellenistic lifestyle that the Pharisees despised. They were elite and liberal, preferring not to follow the strict oral traditions of the Pharisees. They did however take the written Law very literally and did not believe in the resurrection of the dead or spirit beings as the Pharisees did. As a result the two groups did not get along very well.


The Essenes were a group of religious Jews who got tired of both the Pharisees and Sadducees. They felt that both groups had corrupted the city and the temple. In protest, they moved out of Jerusalem to the desert. Separating themselves, they lived as monks in a commune. Choosing personal poverty, they had everything in common. They followed strict dietary laws and celibacy, spending their time in study, worship, and work. They even had their own calendar which followed the solar year of 364 days instead of a lunar year, as the rest of the Jewish nation did with 354 days. The Essenes were a separate brotherhood living in peace and self-denial who took care of their own and anyone in need.


Finally, we must not forget the Zealots. They were possibly the earliest known terrorist group. They were aggressive and militant, radical and patriotic. They took it upon themselves to incite rebellion against the Roman Empire, believing that God is their only ruler. They felt that any means of gaining religious and political freedom was acceptable. The zealots did not even hesitate to eradicate Jews whom they felt were friendly with Rome.


Now that you have met Nicodemus, perhaps you would be interested in looking in on his meeting with Jesus at night.

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rasta1 profile image

rasta1 4 years ago from Jamaica

Barabbas was a very popular zealot. Do you know any popular Essenes


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good question Rasta! Other than the dead sea scrolls there isn't a whole lot of information on the Essenes. The historian Josephus lived with them for 3 years and probably wrote the most about them. But he was not an Essene. There are only three noted Essenes that I am aware of, Judas who lived about 100 years before Christ, Menahem who met King Herod when Herod was a boy and Simon who interpreted a dream for Archelaus in 6 AD. All of these are mentioned in Josephus' writing, Antiquities. Some people claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were Essenes, but there are a lot of differences in the Essene practices and the practices and teachings of John and Jesus. Thank you so much for stopping by and reading my hub! I appreciate the question and the follow :)


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Don't you think that Essenes were descendants of Esau, the firstborn and beloved son of Isaac?

Esau was renamed to Edom, in Greek Idumea. Descendants of Esau, the Idumeans were forcibly converted to Judaism by John Hyracanus (134 - 104).

Idumeans believed in God of Abraham, spoke Aramaic and were using solar calendar.

Some of them, like Antipas, Antipater or Herod, played major role in the politic of Judea.

From history we know that the grandson of Antipater, Joseph Phasel II was father of two leaders of Jerusalem Church - James the Just and Simeon, brothers of the Lord.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

That is an interesting thought Sagittarius. One I hadn't thought of but I am sure you are right. Since the Essenes were a sect that a Jew would join through a lengthy initiation period, baptism and swearing of oaths, I am confident that there were Jews represented from many lineages. It seem that an Essene was one who embraced a certain value and belief system rather than an inheritance that he was born into. Thank you for sharing your insight!


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Thank you April for your response, it's nice feeling to know that one is not alone.

Several more well known Essenes (descendants of Esau) in the Bible I can think of are:

Job - the second king of Edom, author and protagonist of the Book of Job; he was descendent of Reul, the second son of Esau,

Eliphaz - the firstborn of Esau and king of Thameans, one of Job's visitors,

Zophar - son of Eliphaz and king of Minaeans / Minoans; he was another of Job's visitors,

 Jethro - Priest of Midian and father in law of Moses; he was Kennite, descendant of Kenaz son of Eliphaz.

Esau from history is known as Lipit  Ishtar - king of Isin and Sumer.

April, as much as it may be interesting, it is a secret knowledge; if you feel that things go wrong then please stay away from it.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

It is interesting, but I don't understand why it would be secret. Thank you for the heads up!


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

You see April, 

Esau was niter Jew nor Israelite; 

as his younger brother Jacob was ancestor of  all Tribes of Israel, including the Jews (Tribe of Judah), 

Esau was ancestor not only of Edomites, but also of people called Gentiles or Nations which includes Minoans, Greeks, ancient Arabs, Romans and several more nations, bringers of our civilization.

Esau  had four wives:

two Hittite wives - Judith and Ada,

 one Egyptian wife - Basemath also called Malahet,

and one Hurrian - Amorite wife, Oholibama.

Those women become Ancestral Mothers of famous nations of the past.

With his first wife Judith, Esau had two daughters, Puzith and Marzith; Esau gave them as a wives to the Hurian - Amorite children of Seir.  

As a daughters of Esau/Edom, Marzith and Puzith became Ancestral Mothers of Edomites.

Ada, the second Hittite wife of Esau, bore to Esau his firstborn son Eliphaz, she become Ancestral Mother of famous in the past people of Ad.

Basemath, granddaughter of Abraham by his firstborn son Ishmael, (after her mother she was Egyptian), bore to Esau one son, his name was Reul (friend of God). 

Basemath was the Ancestral Mother of Ishmaelite's; 

Reul was the grandfather of Job, and Job married Dinah, daughter of Arabus, grandson of Belus; she became Ancestral Mother of Ancient Arabs.

With his fourth wife Oholibama, of the children of Seir, Esau/Edom had three sons, Jalam, Jeush and Korah; they were the fathers of Dukes of Edom. And this is why Seir became Edom/Idumea.

April, let me know if this interests you then I will continue, but let me know if troubles starts, then I will stop. 


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

It makes you wander, who in fact was Esau.

I have been searching for Esau's footsteps for the last twelve years, and what I have found is fascinating.

From history and archeological excavations we know that Esau is the same person as Egyptian Osiris and Sumerian  Lipit-Esthar, bringers of our civilization.

Jews in general hate Esau, and have created all kinds of lies about him; however, so they did about Jesus also.

If you read Genesis and apply Christian values to Esau, you will find out that he represents the image of Christ. 

From history and archeology, this person - Esau, is very interesting. 

In the archeological records of Summer, Esau is mentioned as Lipit-Ishtar, son in law of Ishme-Dagan (Ishmael). 

He was the fifth king of the First Dynasty of Isin. 

Esau instigated legal and economic reform trough his "Code of Lipit-Ishtar".

"Esau / Lipit-Ishtar drafted a formal legal code for Summer and Akkad in 1930 B.C., which precedes the famous Low Code of Hammurabi a couple centuries later.

His Code was the first legal code to deal substantially with the inheritance of children of plural wives, including slaves wives and prostitutes.  

It was also the fist to allow daughters to inherit from fathers. 

It opened a window on social development of the period, including the first legal provision for child support."

However, what do we know today about Esau?


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Morning Sagittarius,

Sorry I did not get a chance to reply to your comments yesterday. It turned out to be a crazy day I didn't get a chance to get back on the hub.

Thank you for the geneologies. It is amazing what we can find in them.

Although I have read Genesis extensively, I can't say I can see Esau as the image of Christ. I just can't see Christ being tricked and then bearing a grudge and wanting to murder his brother. Or marrying foreign women against his parents wishes.

I had no idea about his legal and economic reforms.

Thank you!


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Hello April,

 

I truly like what you have written on your hub “How to use a commentary”:

 

“When it comes to history and customs, most commentators should agree and be able to document where they got their information. …

 

Always look at their explanations and decide if they make sense or not. Ask yourself if they are able to support their views with the Bible or if they just made them up because they sound good. It is always best to define your beliefs with what the Bible says. Commentaries can be a great tool, but they should never replace the real thing.”

 

Let’s have a second look at the Genesis story about the ancestor of Essenes.

 

You say April:

“I just can't see Christ being tricked and then bearing a grudge and wanting to murder his brother. Or marrying foreign women against his parents wishes.”

 

 

- By being tricked, do you mean the given away Birthright and stolen Blessing?

 

- “… bearing grudge and wanting to murder his brother.” – is this what Esau have said, or what someone else put in to his mouth?

 

- Can you please point to me the verses in the Bible saying that Esau married those two Hittite women against his parent’s wishes?

 

As far as I remember Patriarchs were bonded with Noahite law, and Noah’s blessing which says:

 

Genesis 9

New International Version (NIV)

 

“24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,

 

“Cursed be Canaan!

    The lowest of slaves

    will he be to his brothers.”

 

26 He also said,

 

“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem!

    May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

 

27 May God extend Japheth’s territory;

    may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,

    and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.”

 

You see April, saying “may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,” Noah gave permition for the descendents of Shem (Esau), to intermarry with the descendents of Japheth (the Hittite wives of Esau).

 

There was issue with the Canaanites; however, none of Esau’s wives was the Canaanite, and all of them were legal wives.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Evening Sagittarius!

I am glad you liked my views on commentaries. I try not to use them very much, but they do have their value and many people rely on them heavily.

Maybe tricked wasn't the right word. If Jesus and Esau are the same person, I just think he would have known what was happening, being omniscience, and either allowed it and not gotten upset, or prevented it.

In Genesis 27: 41 the Bible says "So Esau bore a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him; and Esau said to himself,"The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob."

So since it's the Bible putting the words in his mouth, I have to believe he said it or my whole belief system is in trouble.

As for the wives, that is in Genesis 26: 34-35 - "When Esau was forty years old he married Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite; and they brought grief to Isaac and Rebekah.

Followed by Genesis 27:46 - "Rebekah said to Isaac, "I am tired of living becouse of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife from the daughters of Heth, like these, from the daughters of the land, what good will my life be to me?"

So it seems pretty clear they didn't like their first two inlaws from that land. Makes me glad I get along with mine. :)

Thank you for asking, I am enjoying our dialogue. Have a great night.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good Morning April,

Thank you for allowing me to ask; the pleasure of the dialogue is mine.

April, please don't judge yourself to harsh once you notice that things in fact are different then they seems to be; my head was hurting too when I was trying to comprehend the meaning behind the story.

Let's have a look again on those three questions:

- Regarding Birthright and Blessing - the ones you think 

"Esau should know better", I will leave this one for next post - it is a lengthy explanation.

-  Did Esau married those two Hittite's women against his parents wishes or against the customs or law? 

There is nothing in the Bible what would indicate so.

 We don't know much about Esauu's first wife Judith, who bore two daughters to Esau, however, Ada bore to Esau the firstborn son Eliphaz, (name meaning - God is his strenght). 

From the Book of Job we know that Eliphaz was the King of Thameans and in dialogs with Job he states with remarkable force of language the infinite purity and majesty of God (4:12- 21; 15:12-16).

Ada raised a pretty good boy, she also became Ancestral Mother of people of Ad, very famous people of the past ( 2 millennium  B.C.E.), so she wasn't such a bad choice.

On the other hand, Rebeca's complain:

" 46And Rebekah said to Isaac, I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth: if Jacob take a wife of the daughters of Heth, such as these which are of the daughters of the land, what good shall my life do me?"

took place right after she did something very bad to Esau and Isaac, and probably was looking for excuse, do you remember what was it? 

Anyway, in Genesis 28 

King James Version (KJV), we read:

" 8And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father;

 9Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife." 

Later in Genesis 36, Mahalath is called Basemath ( name meaning - Fragrant; fragrance ). 

In  Genesis 25 King James Version (KJV), we read:

"16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations."

If the brothers of Mahalath / Basemath are called princess, then she was a princesses, a daughter of a king.

From Summerian texts we know, that with this marriage Esau inherited from his father in law Ishmael / Ishme-Dagon,  the throne of Isin.

Not such a bad choice to please his parents. 

As a daughter of Ishmael, Basemath become Ancestral Mother of Ishmaelite's and she bore to Esau Reul (name meaning - Friend of God). 

Reul, known also as Horus, was the father of Zerah, and Zerah was the father of Job.

The last of Esau's wive's was Oholibama of the children of Seir, family of Melchizedek.

"Who was Oholibamah?

Alice C. Linsley

Oholibamah is one of the most fascinating women in the Old Testament. Her name means "most high tent" or "tent shrine" and she is mentioned six places in Genesis 36. From her name, and based on the genealogical information in Genesis, we may safely conclude that she was associated with the Horite priestly line of Seir."

Oholibama bore to Esau three sons : Jeush, Jalam and Korah; they became fathers of the Dukes of Edom:

Genesis 36 reads:

"40 And these are the names of the dukes that came of Esau, according to their families, after their places, by their names; 

duke Timnah, duke Alvah, duke Jetheth,

41 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon,

42 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar,

43 Duke Magdiel, duke Iram: 

these be the dukes of Edom, according to their habitations in the land of their possession: he is Esau the father of the Edomites."

April, based on what we know from Genesis about Esau, can we say that he married against his parents wishes; or knowing his wives can we call him "Fornicator"???, you know the meaning of this word.

Please answer: yes or no, then we can go to the next issue if Esau was really planing to murder  his brother Jacob.

Have a nice day.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

April, I don't think Esau was omniscience and I think that there is some difference between God and the  LORD. 

BTW, I don't consider Esau to be God.

However, the question is: did Esau had a mind of a murder? Was he capable to kill his brother?

To solve this questions lets look first at Esau's personality traits:

From Genesis 26 we know that Esau was the firstborn and beloved son of Isaac. His name was also Edom, and Edom = Red, and Red = Adam; so Esau was the second Adam of the Bible.

Genesis says that he was a hunter who was providing food for the family. The Slavic Bible also says that he was worker of the field.

In Genesis 25

King James Version (KJV) we read:

"27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.

28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?"

April, let's stop the reading at this point  to think:

- why was Esau ready to faint?

- why he was at the point of dying? 

To answer this questions we have to leave the Bible and look in to the Book of Jasher. I will do it in the next post.

However, it makes you wander,  if Esau was aggressive, cruel man with a mind of a murder, wouldn't he say to his brother,  "you better give me this food or I will bit a s.... out of you". 

But Esau did not say so, and did what Jesus was teaching to do:

Matthew 5

New International Version (NIV) reads:

The Sermon on the Mount

"42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello, Sagittarious. I have the questions to you. What is the reason (I asked you before) not writing the Hub that we all can see your position and give us chance to respond. Responding in Hub another writer appears to me that it is not my business to response. Why you not write own Hub? I want to know your backround. Who you are? Are you Muslim or what? I would like to know list of references you are using for writing. I mean author, publisher and perhaps Library Catalog number. It appears to me that you do not like Jews, why? Jesus was Jew. Jews BTW would like to if they could He would be somebody else than the Jew.

The birth line of people is not as important as what and who they really are. I am trying to write to you really in love.

See there are many recent books written, man's made opinion and people, as they are programmed by someone to believe everything what is in the print as the unshakable truth.

We are living in last days and it is paramount importance we know the truth and not deviate and destruct. The Bible approached by spirit is not saying opposite is correct.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Evening Sagittarious!

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe that Esau is God. That was what I thought you were saying when you said that Jesus and Esau were one. I do believe that Jesus shares the same qualities of Deity as the LORD; that is omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresense. And that these qualities belong exclusively to the trinity(God the Father,Son and Holy Spirit)

My contention was not with the quality of the lineage, or what it became. I just don't believe his parents approved. Whether or not he knew at the time or realized later doesn't change the point that Esau doesn't display the same characteristics that Jesus did. Jesus always knew what people were thinking.

I do believe based on the Bible that Isaac and Rebecca were grieved at the marriages from the beginning. I think that is what Gen. 26 is saying. I think having to send Jacob away after what she did only emphasized Rebecca's pain.

As a hunter, Esau would have had the ability to kill his brother, and I believe his distress was real enough to want to in his anger. His mom sure seemed to believe him. However, I do not believe he would have actually done it. Nor do I believe that it makes him cruel and aggressive. Many mild mannered people are pushed to violent emotions and express things in anger that they would never follow through with.

He was not angry when he wanted the stew, just hungry.

Hebrews makes it pretty clear that he was not following a godly directive in giving up his birthright.

Heb.12:16 - "See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son."

Anyway, that's enough for tonight, its time to get the kids to bed. Have a good evening!


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Evening Vladimir!

Thank you for stopping by, I appreciate your interest in my hub. I do not feel intruded on by your comments.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Hello, Panie Vladku. Jak se macie.

Nice to see you on April’s hub.

You see Vlaku, the reason I am not writing my own hub - yet, is that English is my second language, surly you have noticed my typos and poor sentence structures.

To write own hub you have to be fluent in English, like April is. She has not only language knowledge, but a heart and talent of a writer.

Who am I? You have asked me this question before and I gave you my “testimony”.

Do I have to be a Muslim to search for the Truth?

Vladku, you want to know my background? Are you going  to hire me? Should I post my references too? ;)

The general ideas of my posts are mine; References?  The Bible, if you will search with an open heart and mind. Usually I’m using Kings James Version, it is copyright free.

You see Vladku, Idumeans had been forcefully converted to Judaism in the second century B.C.; we know that Herod the Great was not a Jew, why don’t we know this about Jesus?

Forget the birth line Vladku, help us to find out who really Esau was. Do you think that he was fornicator and capable to kill his brother? Because I don’t think so. For me, after reading Genesis, these are baseless, false accusations, and all I’m trying to do is to display the truth.

I know that some people are programmed by someone to believe everything what they want them to believe; the best example of it is Anders Behring Breivik, with his fascination for Israel and his hate for Muslims.

“We are living in last days and it is paramount importance we know the truth…”, for some people it will be the end; for those who will know the truth, and their loved one, it will be just the beginning.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Let's look at the story about Esau the hunter in the Book of Jasher, but first explanation what is the Book of Jasher. This book is very useful book to be use as a reference to the history of Esau and Edom. 

This book has been lost for ages and then found. However, because it contains to much truth, it had been lost, or rather hidden again.

There is corrupted copy of the Book of Jasher circulating on the Internet, although corrupted, it is still providing plenty of useful informations.

Below is a  note about the original one:

The Lost Book of Jasher

 

“An ancient Hebrew text, recently rediscovered by an American historian, gives a completely new understanding of the history of Edomites. Just like the Books of Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, it describes the period of time the Israelites spent wandering in the wilderness, and contains additional commentaries on these events.   Jasher, after whom the book is named, was a priest and a warrior, who appointed Joshua as the field commander of Israelite armies. According to the Book of Jasher, Jasher and his tribe, the Edomites, were the Chief tribe and highest Judge of the area. When Canaan was finally conquered, Jasher summoned all of the the conquered kings to Beth-El, in order to make peace. In the passage below, Jasher is portrayed as the chief Judge of all of the tribes:

“And in those days, the kings and princes of the sea coasts, the kings of the mountains, and the kings of the valleys, assembled themselves together, nigh unto Bath-El... And Jasher, the priests of Edom, and all the elders of the tribes of Israel, came there also... Then answered all the kings of the sea coasts, the kings of the mountains, and the kings of the valleys, and they said:  “What thou, O Jasher, Judge of all Israel”…

 

So, according to the Book of Jasher, the Edomites were considered to be Chief Judges of the tribes in the area.

This book was lost to history until the twentieth century. A number of different copies of the Book of Jasher appeared during the nineteenth century, and were used by various offshoot Christian sects to support their religious convictions.

 

A sixteenth century English copy was rediscovered in the archives of the Rouen Cathedral in 1929, and was obtained by the Bibliothèque Nationale of Paris. It remained tucked away and forgotten in the vaults of the library until it was examined by the American historian Michael Martin of Philadelphia University in 1993. Martin's research traced the Book of Jasher back to ancient Judah. The Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar obtained an original scroll of the book when he captured Jerusalem in 597 BC and took it back to Babylon along with other booty. The book remained there until the city itself was looted by the Persian King Cyrus II in 539 BC. It was then housed in the great library of Gazna in Persia, until it was bought by Alucin, the Archbishop of Canterbury, during a pilgrimage to the Middle East around 800 AC. The scroll was taken to Canterbury, where it was copied into Latin in the 1140s and then into English during the 16th century. Along with the medieval manuscript, the original scroll perished before the dissolution of monasteries, however the manuscript, containing the English version, was taken along with other documents to Rouen Cathedral in France, where it remained until it was acquired by the Bibliothèque Nationale.

 

In the Bible there are two references to what was once a fortieth book of the Old Testament, called the Book of Jasher. Joshua refers to it:” it is not written in the Book of Jasher” (Joshua 10:13). 

As does King David: “Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher” (II Samuel 1:18.”


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good Morning April  :)

Thank you for clarifying that you don't believe that Esau was a cruel aggressive man, truly willing to kill his brother. 

I think that after reading carefully Genesis 33 which reads: -

"4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept."

"9 And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself."

"12 And he said, Let us take our journey, and let us go, and I will go before thee."

"15 And Esau said, Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me."

"16 So Esau returned that day on his way unto Seir."

- you will have no doubt about it. Isn't this a beautiful example of brotherly love? Not like the one - "I will give you bowl of soup so you will not faint, but first give my your birthright, and swear to me first".

BTW April, while reading Genesis have you noticed that the Birthright and the Blessing are two different unrelated things; while Birthright is Material, the Blessing is purely Spiritual one.

 You can buy the first one for a bowl of soup, but the Blessing - it is all a different long story.

Regarding the statement "Esau and Jesus are one", it was what the Cabbalist believe. 

Tradition says that Esau, after he was killed, was the first of the new generation of mortals, elevated to the position of the LORD'S of heaven. 

Before he was killed, Esau was just a new generation of people created with the Spirit of God; a new Adam,  like a seed of "a man who sowed good seed in his field".

But now, let's go to the story of a great hunter, the firstborn and beloved son of the promised son of Abraham. I will post it in separate post.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Here is the story about the great hunter:

Book of Jasher, Chapter 27

"1 And Esau at that time, after the death of Abraham, frequently went in the field to hunt.

2 And Nimrod king of Babel, the same was Amraphel, also frequently went with his mighty men to hunt in the field, and to walk about with his men in the cool of the day.

3 And Nimrod was observing Esau all the days, for a jealousy was formed in the heart of Nimrod against Esau all the days."

But wait April, do we know who was Nimrod?

 I think that without explaining first who was Nimrod, this story will lose most of its meaning. 

So let's go first to find out who Nimrod was.

Book of Jasher, Chapter 11

"1 And Nimrod son of Cush was still in the land of Shinar, and he reigned over it and dwelt there, and he built cities in the land of Shinar.

2 And these are the names of the four cities which he built, and he called their names after the occurrences that happened to them in the building of the tower.

3 And he called the first Babel, saying, Because the Lord there confounded the language of the whole earth; and the name of the second he called Erech, because from there God dispersed them.

4 And the third he called Eched, saying there was a great battle at that place; and the fourth he called Calnah, because his princes and mighty men were consumed there, and they vexed the Lord, they rebelled and transgressed against him.

5 And when Nimrod had built these cities in the land of Shinar, he placed in them the remainder of his people, his princes and his mighty men that were left in his kingdom.

6 And Nimrod dwelt in Babel, and he there renewed his reign over the rest of his subjects, and he reigned securely, and the subjects and princes of Nimrod called his name Amraphel, saying that at the tower his princes and men fell through his means.

7 And notwithstanding this, Nimrod did not return to the Lord, and he continued in wickedness and teaching wickedness to the sons of men; and Mardon, his son, was worse than his father, and continued to add to the abominations of his father.

8 And he caused the sons of men to sin, therefore it is said, From the wicked goeth forth wickedness."


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

And now back to the story.

Book of Jasher, Chapter 27

1 And Esau at that time, after the death of Abraham, frequently went in the field to hunt.

2 And Nimrod king of Babel, the same was Amraphel, also frequently went with his mighty men to hunt in the field, and to walk about with his men in the cool of the day.

3 And Nimrod was observing Esau all the days, for a jealousy was formed in the heart of Nimrod against Esau all the days.

4 And on a certain day Esau went in the field to hunt, and he found Nimrod walking in the wilderness with his two men.

5 And all his mighty men and his people were with him in the wilderness, but they removed at a distance from him, and they went from him in different directions to hunt, and Esau concealed himself for Nimrod, and he lurked for him in the wilderness.

6 And Nimrod and his men that were with him did not know him, and Nimrod and his men frequently walked about in the field at the cool of the day, and to know where his men were hunting in the field.

7 And Nimrod and two of his men that were with him came to the place where they were, when Esau started suddenly from his lurking place, and drew his sword, and hastened and ran to Nimrod and cut off his head.

8 And Esau fought a desperate fight with the two men that were with Nimrod, and when they called out to him, Esau turned to them and smote them to death with his sword.

9 And all the mighty men of Nimrod, who had left him to go to the wilderness, heard the cry at a distance, and they knew the voices of those two men, and they ran to know the cause of it, when they found their king and the two men that were with him lying dead in the wilderness.

10 And when Esau saw the mighty men of Nimrod coming at a distance, he fled, and thereby escaped; and Esau took the valuable garments of Nimrod, which Nimrod's father had bequeathed to Nimrod, and with which Nimrod prevailed over the whole land, and he ran and concealed them in his house.

11 And Esau took those garments and ran into the city on account of Nimrod's men, and he came unto his father's house wearied and exhausted from fight, and he was ready to die through grief when he approached his brother Jacob and sat before him."


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

To Sagittarius

Jacob meets Esau.

It was supernatural Jacob was protected by God. Jacob came with families and Esau with weapons and army. Why he needed army to meet the brother?

The book which was quoted above is not authentic. Just fiction, written today’s book to discredit Scripture (similar like Jesus was mariade to Magdalene).


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April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Sorry, I won't have time to look at all this today, but I didn't want you to think I am ignoring you. I am in charge of our Teacher Appreciation week at the kids school next week and am overwhelmed with what I need to get done.

But I do know that the Book of Jasher and the other "lost" books of the Bible, did not meet the guidelines to be included in the Bible and therefore, while valuable as commentaries from the era, can not be trusted equally with the Bible to be absolute truth.

One of my college projects was to write a 10 page paper on why any one of those books were not included in the Bible. I remember my report being easily 20 pages, mostly on the points where it disagreed with the Bible. That was so long ago though, I don't remember which book I did and I no longer have the paper or information. I just remember it gave me the impression that if one of the lost books disagreed with what the Bible taught, it was always best to go with the Bible.

Again, I apologize that I will not be able to read it all today. Have a good one!


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Dear April, 

Please don't ever feel sorry for not responding to my comments. 

God have blessed you with family and two beautiful boys, and this is your life, happiness and responsibility.

The rest is a choice to fill your free time (with two young boys probably you don't have much of it), and it is your right to do whatever you want to do with it.

I'm not here to teach, I'm just a huber who is sharing my interest in the Bible stories with you, and I appreciate being welcome on your hub.

Regards

S G


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, why brotherly love has to be supernatural; is brotherly love  not what Jesus was reminding you about?

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love....

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us....

 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 

And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. 

—1 John 4:7-21.

But I think that I'm getting you point Vladimir; if requesting  from a dying brother the Birthright,( - 2/3 of fathers property), for a bowl of soup, seems for you to be "NATURAL", then hugs, kisses, tears of joy, forgiveness, generosity and willingness to share the land of Seir, with own brother and his family (this is all what Genesis 33 is about),  will seems for you to be "SUPERNATURAL".  Am I right?

Esau with weapons and army? Vladku, where did you get this idea from, are you sure that what you study is the Bible and not the Talmud?

Let's look at the story again. Jacob was escaping from his uncle Laban after 21 years of taking care of Laban's livestock. Twenty years earlier, to please his parents who were not happy with previous wives, Esau went to his uncle, the firstborn son  of Abraham, and married his daughter, princesses Basemath. With this marriage, Esau inherited from his uncle Ishmael / Ishme-Dagon, the throne of Isin.  After Ishmael's / Ishme-Dagon's death, Esau became the fifth King of Isin.

Vladku, what you read about in Genesis 33, is not an army, weapons and whatever comes to you warlike mind, but a king Esau with his people welcoming his own brother.

Why so many people? Because Esau was  great king and everybody loved him.

I'm not replacing the Bible with the Book of Jasher, just filling the white spaces.

"Jesus mariade to Magdalene"???  Vladku, if the Holy Grail (Royal Blood) is on your mind, then in my opinion the  Royal Blood Line of Jesus ended with Jesus, but began, let see; - was there someone in Patriarchs time who had a wife from family of Melchizedek???


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Hello Sag. My answer you will find in your Hub.


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

 

Good Morning April,

I’m glad to know that we have common interest in Biblical Apocryphal books and consider them as valuable commentaries for Bronze and Iron eras.

They helped me a lot to put together the fragmental stories from the Bible, especially the one regarding Esau and his nation, Edom.

I’m not using them to replace the Bible, however, I use them frequently to clarify, unclear passages and to connect fragmental stories from the Bible; the best example for it is the missing history of Edom.

 

Going back to one of your previous posts, you see April, you have quoted something from NT regarding Esau, what I disagree with. It was quotation from Hebrew.

 

"Hebrews makes it pretty clear that he was not following a godly directive in giving up his birthright."

"Heb.12:16 - "See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son."

April, let's  forget for now the second part, Heb.12:16, the Blessing and about the though of killing his brother, and  concentrate on the meaning of OT Birthright, the one Esau gave away to Jacob for a bowl of soup.

What did in fact Esau gave away for the bowl of soup? 

What was the meaning of the "Birthright" in Patriarchs time? 

There is enough evidence in the book of Genesis to prove that in the Patriarchs time, the "Birthright" and the "Blessing" were two separate events; one could gave  away the birthright, but keep the blessing.

In addition, it is very important to notice that while the Birthright was material, dealing with inheritance division of fathers's property, the Blessing was purely spiritual and was given in the presence of the LORD.

In Genesis 27

 King James Version (KJV)   we read:

"36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing."

By this statement Esau makes it clear, that the birthright and the blessing are two separate events; he honestly admits that he gave away the Birthright to his younger brother Jacob, however, now the Blessing has been stolen from him. (obviously, Esau is to gentle to use the word "stolen").

In addition, if  Rebecca and Jacob would not be aware that  the Birthright and the Blessing were two separate not related events, then there would be no need for Rebecca and Jacob to deceive the old and blind Isaac; all Jacob needed to do, was to go and tell Isaac that he acquired from Esau the right to Blessing.

In fact, Jacob was not really interested in the Blessing, he was satisfy with the Birthright he got from Esau. 

It was Rebecca's idea to deceive Isaac and initially Jacob opposed her plan and got the right idea:

"11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:

12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing."

In the next post I will try to explain the meaning of:

- the Firstborn

- the Birthright 

- and the Blessing

BTW April, what do you mean by this statement " Esau was - not following a godly directive in giving up his birthright"?


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sag. We do not have unclean messages in the Bible. I am teaching and using Bible for decades and had no any problems.

Brotherly love (phileo) is not supernatural. It would be agape love, which is God's kind of love.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Response to Sagittarius. Apocrypha are books not originally in the Bible. The are claiming are OT books but are not in Hebrew Bible and are written not in Hebrew language but in Greek. Those are false books. Catholics have them and like them supporting their religion, like purgatory etc. Example book of Enoch is written in 100 AD and Enoch lived cc 5000 years ago. Reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingly and so on rejected and sorted it for us. Many reformers translated Bible. In the pass even in my time Latin was used in Catholic Church and people did not have any ideas how to understand. There were many books written it does not mean they have to be in the Bible.


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, what you say is that, the feeling Esau had for his brother Jacob, was in fact Agape Love - I like it.

Vladku, do you say that books not written in Hebrew should not be included in the Bible?

We know that the Book of Job was not written in Jewish Hebrew, do you mean it should be excluded from the Bible?

The Book of Machabees, part of Catholic Bible was written in Hebrew, should it be then included in every Bible?

 

We know that Jesus was teaching from Septuagin LXX which was written in Konya Greek, do you want to say that His teaching is not valid because was based on false Bible?

I did not spent much time on the book of Enoch, however, its style and wisdom reminds me the Book of Job, so probably was written shortly after Job - 1500 B.C.E.

We don't have any traces of Ester between the DSS manuscripts; shouldn't this book be removed from Bible?

Vladku, what qualifications do you have to decide which book should be part of the Bible and which should not?

If you are expert, can you then tell me please what script use Moses to write Torah? When and where this script originated, and who taught Moses this script?

And the last question, the Ten Commandments; in which numerals they have been carved, Arabic or Romans?

Dobranocka  Vladku


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Evening, I hope you have enjoyed your weekend. Mine was enjoyable, filled with soccer games, school projects, church and the zoo.

I'm sorry I quoted Hebrews from the New International Version of the Bible.

The King James would say "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright"

And the New American Standard(also a word for word translation) states "that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal."

The greek word is bebelos which literally means "permitted to be trodden on, implying unhallowed"

It is translated as "a godless person, profane, worldy"

I do not doubt that Esau did many nobel things in his life and yet the Bible refers to him as profane. On the other hand, Jacob was a deceiver and Hebrews lists him in the great Hall of Faith. (Hebrews 11:21)

Why would this be? Is Hebrews untrue? No, I don't think so. All of us have times to be ashamed of and times to make us proud. In the end, it is our hearts that God judges. Regardless of our actions, only He knows our hearts.

I Samuel 16:7 - "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."


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April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Only the books that are included in the Bible are inspired by God and can be trusted to be absolute truth. The following guidelines were used in determining whether a book was inspired or not.

1. They were written by Prophets or Apostles - the officially designated spokesmen of God.

2. The writers had to be confirmed by Acts of God, miracles.

3. The message had to tell the truth about God. Since God cannot lie or contradict Himself, it must agree with the previous books that were inspired by God

4. The book must have the power of God.

-the power to change lives

-the prophesies have to come true

5. Had to be accepted by the people of God. It had to be accepted as from God by the people it was addressed to as they knew the person who wrote it.

All the books of the Apocrapha and the Psuedepigrapha were considered and rejected as not inspired by God because they did not meet these guidelines.

The "lost books of the Bible" were not lost during consideration, but were never a part of the bible to begin with since they did not meet these standards. They were rejected for historical inaccuracies, moral incongruities and containing false teachings.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

April, it is very well explained and said. We need Bible to live by. It is our goal.

God would never allow something important being lost. This is why the Bible is written in digital not analog mode.

Book of Job was preserved to us in Hebrew language. It is good enough. I wrote the book of JOB and the reason was it is most misunderstood book in the Bible. But notice Jesus never mentioned his name. It is only James who did it for references of being patient.

I would like also mentioned that during Jacob time there was not law defined. Jacob just listen what his mom said to him. He believed and listen Word. Esau was worldly man, hunting and so on. The faith comes by hearing. Jacob was able to talk stories of past to further generations. Isaac stuck with tradition about first born, he liked to eat... But He changed the mind he was wrong. He did not changed the blessing as he performed before, even was "deceived". I paraphrase: Isaac was thinking: "This is what I deserve..."


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vlad, you said "the Book of Job was preserved to us in Hebrew language", and I agree with you, just have to add that it was preserved in the Old Hebrew, which is the language of Edomites. see Wikipedia.

 The Old Hebrew script, one of the oldest alphabetical scripts, was also developed by Edomites in the 18 century B.C.E.

It was the script Moses learned from his father in law Jethro and have used it to write Torah.

Vlad, you remember the story when Moses had killed a man? In Egypt under Noahite law it was punishable by death sentence. Moses escaped from Egypt and found refuge with Jethro, who let him to take care of his livestock for over twenty years. 

It was the place where Moses not only have learned the Hebrew Script, but also his almost forgotten Hebrew language.

BTW Vlad, who in fact was Jethro, Moses' father in law and grandfather of his children; the priestly line, the Levites?

From the Bible we know him as Jethro, a  Kenite Shepherd and Priest of Midian? In the Bible Jethro is also called Reul and Hobab.

Vlad, you have written something before about Kennites, the famous metal workers, being descendants of Cain.   

I have to say that you haven't done your homework before making this statement. 

You see Vlad, descendants of Cain, the Cainites, have been wiped out from earth with Noah's Flood.

The Kennites, the famous metal workers of Levant, were descendants of Kenaz, the youngest son of Eliphaz the king of Temanites. Genesis 36 : 11 reads:

"11The sons of Eliphaz:

Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam and Kenaz."

Kenaz had a daughter who became Ancestral Mother of the nation of Kennites, and  Jethro was one of them.

I'm still puzzled with the two other names of Jethro: Reul and Hobab.

We know who was Reul (friend of God). He was the son of princes Basemath and Esau / Edom; in Egypt he was known as Horus, son of Osiris.

I think that calling Jethro - Reul, the writer was thinking about Jethro being from the line of Reul. It is like Jews consider themselves to be the children of Abraham, although none of them really is.

But who was Hobab? Was Hobab Jobab?

Jobab from Bozrah was the second king of Edom, and Septuagin tells us that Jobab is Job, from the land of Ausis / Uz.

Was Hobab the close relative of Jethro? Maybe his father? We know that Job was from the line of Reul as well.

Talmud tells us that Jethro, Job, and Bela - the first king of Edom, were advisers of Pharo during the times of Hyksos, concerning excessive multiplication of the children of Israel. 

Was Jethro the son of Job in the line of Reul? 

I'm just thinking.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sag, you are really off of the track. You major on unimportant matters.

Moses was with Jewish family until he was 3 years old. The language is set this time. You may experiment and listen let say Hebrew or unknown language 20 hrs daily for 3 years even when you sleep. Perhaps 10 hrs. You will see the miracles in language area. Moses had some troubles initially since he did not keep Hebrew active enough time, still he visited Hebrew people.

I do not care what Edomites did or wrote. They were enemies of God's chosen people.

I knew Moses understand language of the sheep. Ha. You said: "...who let him to take care of his livestock for over twenty years." Why he did not write Torah in Edumean language?


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good afternoon April,

I'm glad to hear you had enjoyable weekend with your boys; all activities you have listed reminded me the times when my kids were in elementary school age, it was the happiest time of my life.

 

April, in the search for historical Esau, please let's forget for now the NT, and concentrate on facts from his life; not later opinions. To find the reasons why the later opinions were formed we will get later to it, or probably you will realize it on your own.

 

So let's have a look at the

- Firstborn

- Birthright

- and Blessing

 

The role of the First-Born, in the Patriarchs times, was of crucial importance.

Among the Hebrews, as well as among other nations, the first-born enjoyed special privileges. Besides having a greater share in the paternal affection, he had everywhere the first place after his father and a kind of directive authority over his younger brothers.

 

 

A special Blessing was reserved to him at his father's death, and he succeeded him as the head of the family. Moreover, the blessing included a right to the Priesthood.

This latter privilege, as also the headship of the family, to which it was attached, continued in force only when brothers dwelt together in the same house; for; as soon as they made a family apart and separated, each one became the head and priest of his own house.

 

The privilege of the firstborn also included the Birthright.

 

The Birthright, as we know from (Deuteronomy 21:17), meant, receiving a double portion among his brothers. It was working this way:

Father’s inheritance was divided in to three parts; the 2/3 of the inheritance was granted to the firstborn son, and the reminding 1/3 of father’s property was divided between reminding sons.

In Esau – Jacob case, the 2/3 should belong to Esau, as the first born son, and the reminding 1/3 to Jacob, as there were no other sons in Isaac’s family.

All what Jacob wanted from Esau, for the bowl of soup, was Esau’s Birthright, the 2/3 of inheritance, leaving Esau with the 1/3, which was meant for Jacob.

Exhausted and dying Esau, didn’t care about the material property; he said yes, ate and left.

It wasn’t the last time when Esau was so geneourus to his brother Jacob; Genesis 33 tells us how Esau was refusing to accept gifts from Jacob and in Genesis 36, King James Version, we read:

 

“1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom…

6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.

7 For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.

8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.”

It was the time when Esau left to his brother the reminding 1/3 of their father inheritance, and had moved to the land of Seir.

For his generosity God granted Esau very fertile land of Seir, and blessed him with even more grandchildren, the famous Dukes of Edom.

In Deuteronomy 2 (KJV), we read that when Moses was leading Israelites from the slavery of Egypt, God warned him not to attacked Edomites:

“1 Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea, as the Lord spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir many days.

2 And the Lord spake unto me, saying,

3 Ye have compassed this mountain long enough: turn you northward.

4 And command thou the people, saying, 

Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; 

because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

 

6 Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink...

8 And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab.”

 

April, do you now see anything wrong in being generous as Esau was to his brother?  I don’t think God did.

On the other hand, and loosing the Blessing, which was purely spiritual meant a lot. 

Let's start with example of Blessing from Patriarchs times and see how Jacob, on his deathbed, was blessing his sons:

Genesis 49 King James Version

"1And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

2Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

3Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

4Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch. (Genesis 35:22)

5Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations. (Genesis 34:25)

6O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

7Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

8Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

9Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

11Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

12His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk."

Now, four thousand years from the time of Blessing, we can see how important role plays the tribe of Judah between the tribes of Israel. His descendants still hold the scepter and create laws for all Israel.

The blessing doesn't have anything to do with dividing of material things, but was dealing with leadership and destiny.

Next, let's  have a closer look at the blessing Esau supposed to lose, and how the message he thought in his heart, about killing Jacob, was delivered to Rebecca.


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, you have mentioned that:

 "during Jacob time there was no law defined. Jacob just listened what his mom said to him. He believe and listen the Word."

Vlad, if it was so, why then Jacob said to Rebeca in Grnesis 27:

"11And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man: 

12My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. "

Vladku, how did Jacob knew that the punishment for deceiving his father he will be the curse? 

Why did Rebecca encouraged Jacob to deceive his father for a Blessing? Didn't she know that there was a punishment for deception?

Didn't they know that the blessing was given in the presents of the LORD, and in fact it was the LORD granting the Spiritual Blessing, and not the dying father? 

Surly they did know; have you noticed what she said to Jacob in Genesis 27;

" 6And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, 

7Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death."

Were they so naïve not to know that the Blessing, unlike the Birthright (which was material possession in a power of a Devil), that the Blessing was in fact Spiritual and was granted by the LORD in the presence of dying father?

Vladku, you can deceive your blind dying father, but do you think that you can cheat, deceive God?

Haven't you read in the Book of Job:

Job 34 

2 “Hear my words, you wise men;

    listen to me, you men of learning.

3 For the ear tests words

    as the tongue tastes food. 

4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;

    let us learn together what is good...

10 “So listen to me, you men of understanding. 

    Far be it from God to do evil, 

    from the Almighty to do wrong. 

11 He repays everyone for what they have done; 

    he brings on them what their conduct deserves. 

12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, 

    that the Almighty would pervert justice. 

13 Who appointed him over the earth?

    Who put him in charge of the whole world? 

14 If it were his intention

    and he withdrew his spirit and breath, 

15 all humanity would perish together

    and mankind would return to the dust.

16 “If you have understanding, hear this;

    listen to what I say. 

17 Can someone who hates justice govern? 

    Will you condemn the just and mighty One? 

18 Is he not the One who says to kings, ‘You are worthless,’

    and to nobles, ‘You are wicked,’ 

19 who shows no partiality to princes

    and does not favor the rich over the poor, 

    for they are all the work of his hands? 

20 They die in an instant, in the middle of the night; 

    the people are shaken and they pass away;

    the mighty are removed without human hand.

21 “His eyes are on the ways of mortals; 

    he sees their every step. 

22 There is no deep shadow, no utter darkness, 

    where evildoers can hide. 

23 God has no need to examine people further, 

    that they should come before him for judgment. 

24 Without inquiry he shatters the mighty 

    and sets up others in their place. 

25 Because he takes note of their deeds, 

    he overthrows them in the night and they are crushed. 

26 He punishes them for their wickedness 

    where everyone can see them,

27 because they turned from following him 

    and had no regard for any of his ways.

28 They caused the cry of the poor to come before him,

    so that he heard the cry of the needy. 

29 But if he remains silent, who can condemn him? 

    If he hides his face, who can see him?

Yet he is over individual and nation alike,

30     to keep the godless from ruling, 

    from laying snares for the people."

Vlad, have you noticed  verse 28, the cry of the poor who was cheated of his inheritance?

 


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sag. Jacob knew how his brother is bad and able to kill. He knew about Esau hypoglycemia (ha). This is why Esau could not be "firstborn" leader. Actually Jacob was firstborn. He stacked out first his hand and they put on his wrist the string (band). Then he pulled in. The Esau came. Jacob was holding Esau heel. It tells us something. Esau always was bully.

The mom always is smart when husband gets religious and do not see.

You do not have to quote pages I know the story. But I am not trying to claim Jacob or Jeus was Slovak Hero.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, Esau was the son Isaac prayed for, and was the firstborn son, God  granted to Isaac.

God is Love and Esau was loving and caring son and brother.

Esau wasn't sitting in the tents, but was providing food for his family. He was working in the field, hunting and defending his family from the wicked people like Nimrod.

Was he strong? No doubt about it. Was he gentle, this is what the Bible shows to us; and this is the reason why his descendants are later called Gentiles.

Esau had a symptoms of hypoglycemia? Vladku, there are at least hundred lies about Esau circulating between Jews, but I've never heard about this one. 

The tiredness Esau was experiencing after fighting wih Nimrod and his people you have diagnosed as hypoglycemia? Didn't you mentioned something about being medical doctor?  - You have lost a potential patient.

 

You say that "Jacob knew how His brother is bad and able to kill." - Vladku, I think Jacob knew how gentle his brother is, and this was the reason why Jacob refused to give a bowl of soup to him until he will swerved to give Jacob his birthright.

Esau was a very good person and all the words that came from his lips, and are recorded in Genesis, the one I have found are:

"32 And Esau said (to Jacob),  Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? "

"My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. "

"... and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me. 

32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou?

And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau."

"34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father."

"36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. 

And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?"

"38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept. "

"Who are those with thee?

8And he said (to Jacob), What meanest thou by all this drove which I met?"

"9And Esau said (to Jacob), I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself."

"12 And he said (to Jacob);  Let us take our journey, and let us go, and I will go before thee."

"15And Esau said (to Jacob), Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me."

Vladku, there is nothing that would indicate that Esau " .....

" may very well be capable of fury and anger and threats of death when they have been crossed wit Jacob. Over the top in impulsive anger; over the top in impulsive love.... " as you suggested  him to be. 

The only time,  we read in the Genesis, when Esau is accused of being bad and planning to kill his brother Jacob, is in Genesis 27.

Let's have a close look at this passage:

"41And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: 

and Esau said in his heart,

 The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. 

42And these words of Esau her elder son 

were told to Rebekah:

 and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, purposing to kill thee."

Vladku, I couldn't believe what I have read so I've checked several other Bible translations and even checked the Apocryphal books; and all said the same: 

"Essu said in his Heart"

"and this words of Esau were told to Rebecah"

Vladku, being MD you have studied Psychiatry; how will you diagnose the symptom when someone claim to be told what the other person think in his heart? 

I have checked two more highly respected translations, and there was nothing indicating that this words about killing Jacob has in fact come from Esau:

The first one is from the Greek Septuagint Bible:

"41 And Esau was angry with Jacob because of the blessing, with which his father blessed him; 

and Esau said in his mind,

Let the days of my father’s mourning draw nigh, that I may slay my brother Jacob. 

42 And the words of Esau her elder son were reported to Rebecca, 

and she sent and called Jacob her younger son,

and said to him, Behold, Esau thy brother threatens thee to kill thee."

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Genesis/index.htm

Next one is from the Book of Jubilees:

The Book of Jubilees

[Chapter 27]  - I like this one, it very popular in Judeo-Christian circles.

"And the words of Esau, her elder son, 

were told to Rebecca in a dream, 

and Rebecca sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him: 'Behold Esau thy brother will take vengeance on thee so as to kill thee. 

Now, therefore, my son, obey my voice, and arise and flee thou to Laban, my brother, to Haran, and tarry with him a few days until thy brother's anger turns away, and he remove his anger from thee, and forget all that thou hast done; then I will send and fetch thee from thence.' 

And Jacob said:

 'I am not afraid; if he wishes to kill me, I will kill him.' "

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/jubilees/27.htm

Vladku, you know by now how Esau died; he was killed by his brother Jacob.

BTW, who do you think was the Messenger who delivered Esau's "though" to Rebecca in her dream; was it not the same who encouraged Rebeca to deceive her husband with Jacob's blessing? Isn't his other name - the Accuser?

Vladku, with the last of your ideas about Jacob being in fact the firstborn, because 

"he stacked out first his hand and they put on his wrist the string (band). Then he pulled in." 

- you got it all mixed up. It is not from the story about Esau and Jacob, but Pharez and Zarah, children of Tamar. Genesis 38 reads:

"27And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb. 

28And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first. 

29And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. 

30And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah."

They were the children of Tamar.

BTW Vladku, who do you think was Tamar?


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, several posts ago, writing about the Blessing, you have written"He (Isaac) did not changed the blessing as he preformed before, even he was "deceived".

You see Vlad, although people do bless and curse others, the true is that the blessing is Spiritual and human being has no power to secure the blessing.

The case of Isaac blessing Esau and Jacob is very deceiving; let's look again what has really happened:

 In the presence of the LORD, the blind Isaac was ready to give blessing to his firstborn son Esau. 

When Jacob approaches to deceive him, pretending that he is Esau, Isaac is double checking if it is really his firstborn Esau. 

Sick, blind and maybe dying Isaac, is unable to recognize his own son, however, in his Spirit and in the presence of the LORD, Isaac is sure that he is blessing his firstborn Esau.  

After Jacob left, Esau approaches his father, bringing food he has prepared, and is asking his father Isaac for blessing.

Old, blind, sick and trembling Isaac says that he already gave away the blessing and spells the curse; all is done in the presence of the LORD.

Considering that it is the LORD who in fact grants blessing, who do you think was recipient of the Blessing and who received the Curse? 

Are you sure Vlad that even

 "He (Isaac) did not changed the blessing as he preformed before, even he was "deceived"., 

that the Almighty approved Jacob's deception and injustice done to Esau? Don't you know the attitudes of our LORD?

Job 34 reads:

"10 “So listen to me, you men of understanding. 

    Far be it from God to do evil, 

    from the Almighty to do wrong. 

11 He repays everyone for what they have done; 

    he brings on them what their conduct deserves. 

12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, 

    that the Almighty would pervert justice."

Vladku, I will try to explain to you where the standard exegesis goes wrong and why, but first in the next post  let’s have a quick look at the Blessing Isaac, or rather the LORD granted to Esau and Jacob.


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Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Sag. u are wrong again, since u are religiously prejudiced. When Isaac seen he was wrong and religious tradition was keeping him in religious bondage he stay on what he did (reverse). It was to me repentance. Before he liked to eat Esau food, dish, "belly". Of course He loved Esau. But God had different plan. He changed it because our flesh bud God demand faith, not flesh. Joseph was not blind but learned from this episode. He crossed hands when Old man Jacob blessed his sons Ephraim and Manasseh. He was going by spirit and not by flesh. *** I do have hard time to talk to you Sag. I do not know you you are hiding, we know u have the agenda.

50 years ago I was teacher of Patriarchs and I did home work.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Vladku, I can not be "religious" because there is no such a religion which would defend Esau; and I can not be "prejudice" because I don't jump in to conclusion based on someone's baseless opinion.

 I do study Bible, the Letter from God, chapter by chapter, looking for facts, not peoples opinions. 

If my way of understanding of the history of Esau and his Edomite nation is different then the mainstream opinion is, that's OK;  only dead fish goes always with the flow.

So Vladku, let's go back in to the Bible, the Word of God, and see who in fact was granted the Blessing and who received the Curse.

Let's first read the whole story again:

Genesis 27  King James Version  

1And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. 

2And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death: 

3Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison; 

4And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

5And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it. 6And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, 

7Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.

8Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee. 9Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth: 10And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death. 

11And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man: 

12My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. 

13And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them. 14And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved. 15And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son: 16And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck: 17And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.

18And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son? 

19And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

 20And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me. 

21And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not. 22And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau. 23And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him. 

24And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am. 

25And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine, and he drank. 26And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.

27And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, 

See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:

28Therefore God give thee of 

the dew of heaven, 

and the fatness of the earth, 

and plenty of corn and wine:

29Let people serve thee, 

and nations bow down to thee: 

be lord over thy brethren, 

and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

30And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting. 

31And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me. 

32And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau. 

33And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed. 

34And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father. 

35And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing. 36And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. 

And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me? 37And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, 

I have made him thy lord, 

and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; 

and with corn and wine have I sustained him: 

and what shall I do now unto thee, my son? 

38And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.

39And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, 

Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, 

and of the dew of heaven from above;

40And by thy sword shalt thou live, 

and shalt serve thy brother; 

and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck."

So Vlad, now we know what the Blesssing was about and what was the Curse.

So let's continue reading the story of Esau and Jacob in your Bible, and see if the LORD has provided justice and override religious prejudice of Isaac, that the Blessing can not be taken back from the deceiver and be granted to the rigtious firstborn son Esau.


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

OK Vlad, let,s number the blessings just to make them more visible, and then let’s look in to the Bible for references, just to find out how did they turned out, and who got what.

Genesis 27 (KJV) The Blessing:

27See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:

28Therefore God give thee of 

# 1 - the dew of heaven, 

# 2 - and the fatness of the earth, 

# 3 - and plenty of corn and wine:

# 4 - Let people serve thee, 

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee: 

# 6 - be lord over thy brethren, 

# 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

# 8 - cursed be every one that curseth thee,

# 9 - and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

 

Let’s look at the event #1 of the Blessing – “God give thee of the DEW OF HEAVEN” .

 

From the Bible we know that sometime during Jacob’s 20-year stay in Haran, Esau (Edom) had begun to establish himself in the land of Seir, “the field of Edom” (Genesis 32:3).

Thus, even before the death of his father (Genesis 35:29), Esau was apparently beginning to fulfill Isaac’s prophetic blessing, directing his attention to the mountainous region of Seir: eventually, Esau married Oholibamah of the children of Seir, and gave two his daughters as a wives to the sons of Seir.

 

Deuteronomy 2 (KJV) reads that it was the LORD who blessed Esau and his Edomite descendants with the Land of Seir.

We learn about this from the   Bible.

 

Deuteronomy 2 reads:

 

“1 Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea, as the Lord spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir many days.

 

2 And the Lord spake unto me, saying,

 

3 Ye have compassed this mountain long enough: turn you northward.

 

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

 

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

 

6 Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink.”

 

The territory of Edom extended about160 km (100 ml) from it’s frontier with Moab in the North, formed by the torrent valley of Zerad, down to Elath on the Gulf of ‘Aquaba in the South (De 2:1-8, 13, 14, 1King 9:26). To the East, the Edomite domain extended out to the edge of Arabian Desert, while to the West it reached across the Arabah Valley to the Wilderness of Zin and embraced the Negev highlands region stretching from the SW corner of the Salt Sea down to Kadesh – barnea. The western portion of Edom therefore came to from the SE boundary of Judah’s territory. – Jos 15:1; compare Nu 34:3.

 

However, the true heartland of the Edomite territory lay east of the Arabah, for here the high mountain range, with some points reaching an altitude of 1,700 m (5,600 ft), receives some rainfall. This is because the land West of the Arabah, the Negev, is considerably lower, allowing he remnants of Mediterranean storm clouds to pass over and reach the higher mountains of Edom, where they release some of their remaining moisture – the DEW OF HEAVEN.

 

Archaeological investigations show a string of ancient settlements and fortresses along a narrow tongue of arable land on the highest part of the long mountainous tableland, or plateau. Modern Tafileh, about 30 km (19 ml) south of the Dead Sea, has large olive groves; this is due mostly to the flow of water from eight fine springs.

The Book of Numbers 20 (KJV) provide us with some more details about the riches of the land:

 

“14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

 

15 How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers:

 

16 And when we cried unto the Lord, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:

 

17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: 

we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: 

we will go by the King’s Hay way, 

we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.”

 

So Vlad, the first part of the Blessing, the “DEW OF HEAVEN”, definitely went to Esau not to Jacob. There was no dew of heaven on the Egyptian dessert.

 

Next, let’s have a look at the - “fatness of the earth” part of the Blessing.

 


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Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good Morning April and Vladimir

Let's look at the second and third part of the Blessing, and see where did it go; to the righteous or to  the deceiver;

Whom did the LORD really blessed with the fatness of earth and plenty of corn and wine.

Genesis 27 reads:

"28 Therefore  God give thee of :

# 2 - the fatness of the earth, 

and # 3 - and plenty of corn and wine:"

For a change, let's  look first in to outside Biblical sources, in search for the truth which has been distorted so badly.

I believe that the closer to the source than the information is more reliable.

Let’s move then 3900 years back, to a setting of a  piece of poetry know as The Story of Sinuhe.

“The Tale of Sinuhe is considered one of the finest works of Ancient Egyptian literature. It is a narrative set in the aftermath of the death of  Pharaoh Amenemhat I, founder of the 12th dynasty of Egypt, in the early 20th century BC. It is likely that it was composed only shortly after this date, albeit the earliest extant manuscript is from the reign of Amenemhat III, c. 1800 BC.....”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible...uhe-1900bc....

In the story of Sinuhe, we have a reference to one of the "Jeush, one of the Chiefs of Edom" Gen 36:15-18

"May then your Majesty command to have brought to you the prince of Meki from Qedem (Edom), Jeush the mountain chiefs from Kushu." [Khentiaush from Khentkesh = Jeush the mountain chiefs from Kushu]"

So let’s summarise the beginning:

“The Story of Sinuhe is like an ancient story or novel written by a man named Sunuhe! 

The Egyptians referred to the land of Edom as the Kushu. In the story of Sinuhe, dated 1900 BC, there is a reference to one of  the "chiefs of the Kushu" whose name is Jeush.  

Jeush is listed as one of the chiefs of Edom in Gen 36:15-18.

Amazingly, the Jeush of Gen 36 lived at the same time as the story of Sinuhe was written.

It is our conclusion that the story of Sinuhe is a literal reference to the actual Jeush of Gen 36!”

So Vlad, let’s bring back now the Genesis chapter which tells us about Jeush.

Genesis 36 (NIV)

Esau's Descendants 

1 This is the account of Esau (that is, Edom). 

2 Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite- 

3 also Basemath daughter of Ishmael and sister of Nebaioth. 

4 Adah bore Eliphaz to Esau, Basemath bore Reuel, 

5 and Oholibamah bore Jeush, Jalam and Korah.

These were the sons of Esau, who were born to him in Canaan. 

6 Esau took his wives and sons and daughters and all the members of his household, as well as his livestock and all his other animals and all the goods he had acquired in Canaan, and moved to a land (Seir) some distance from his brother Jacob.

7 Their possessions were too great for them to remain together; the land where they were staying could not support them both because of their livestock. 

8 So Esau (that is, Edom) settled in the hill country of Seir. 

9 This is the account of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. 

10 These are the names of Esau's sons: 

Eliphaz, the son of Esau's wife Adah, and Reuel, the son of Esau's wife Basemath. 

11 The sons of Eliphaz: 

Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam and Kenaz. 

12 Esau's son Eliphaz also had a concubine named Timna,

who bore him Amalek. These were grandsons of Esau's wife Adah. 

13 The sons of Reuel: 

Nathan, Zerah, Shammah and Mizzah. These were grandsons of Esau's wife Basemath. 

14 The sons of Esau's wife Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon, whom she bore to Esau: 

Jeush, Jalam and Korah.... “

Just a little note before the next verse Vlad, in the present Bibles we are missing the list of grandchildren of Esau and Oholibama.

The Book of Jasher is a good reference to the Bible and it says, that the Dukes/Chiefs of Edom listed below, are in fact childern of Jeush, Jalam and Korah.

So the names of the sons of Jeush, Jalam and Korah are:

Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, Elah, Pinon, Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar, Magdiel and Iram.

This chapter of the Bible gives us some more information about Seir.

Genesis 36; (NIV)

20 These were the sons of Seir the Horite,  who were living in the region: 

Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, 

21 Dishon, Ezer and Dishan. These sons of Seir in Edom were Horite chiefs. 

22 The sons of Lotan: 

Hori and Homam.  Timna was Lotan's sister. 

23 The sons of Shobal: 

Alvan, Manahath, Ebal, Shepho and Onam. 

24 The sons of Zibeon: 

Aiah and Anah. This is the Anah who discovered the hot springs  in the desert while he was grazing the donkeys of his father Zibeon. 

25 The children of Anah:

Dishon and Oholibamah daughter of Anah. 

26 The sons of Dishon :

Hemdan, Eshban, Ithran and Keran. 

27 The sons of Ezer: 

Bilhan, Zaavan and Akan. 

28 The sons of Dishan: 

Uz and Aran. 

29 These were the Horite chiefs: 

Lotan, Shobal, Zibeon, Anah, 

30 Dishon, Ezer and Dishan. These were the Horite chiefs, according to their divisions, in the land of Seir. “

And as we continue reading chapter 36 we find list of descended from Esau who are in fact, (according to The Book of Jasher), the grandchildren of Esau and Oholibamah, daughter of Anah (grandson of Seir) 

“40 These were the chiefs descended from Esau, 

by name, according to their clans and regions: 

Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, 

41 (Oholibamah), Elah, Pinon, 

42 Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar,

43 Magdiel and Iram. 

These were the chiefs of Edom, according to their settlements in the land they occupied. 

This was Esau the father of the Edomites.”

Ok Vlad, let’s go back to the story of Sinuhe and find out if in the land of Seir, Esau was indeed blessed as Isaac  blessing followed:

Genesis 27 (NIV)

"28 May God give you of heaven's dew and of earth's richness— 

an abundance of grain and new wine."

The Story of Sinuhe:

I set out at night. At dawn I reached Peten. I halted at "Isle-of-Kem-Wer." 

An attack of thirstovertook me; I was parched, my throat burned. I said, "This is the taste of death." 

I raised my heart and collected myself when I heard the lowing sound of cattle and saw Asiatics. 

One of their leaders, who had been in Egypt, recognized me. 

He gave me water and boiled milk for me. I went with him to his tribe. What they did for me was good.

Land gave me to land. I traveled to Byblos; I returned to Qedem.(Edom)

I spent a year and a half there. Then Ammunenshi, the ruler of Upper Retenu, took me to him, saying to me: "You will be happy with me;

you will hear the language of Egypt........ 

...........He said to me: "Well then, Egypt is happy knowing that he is strong.

But you are here. You shall stay with me. What I shall do for you is good." 

He set me at the head of his children. He married me to his eldest daughter.

He let me choose for myself of his land, of the best that was his, on his border with another land. It was a good land called Yaa.

Figs were in it and grapes. It had more wine than water.

Abundant was its honey, plentiful its oil. All kinds of fruit were on its trees. 

Barley was there and emmer, and no end of cattle of all kinds. 

Much also came to me because of the love of me; for he had made me chief of a tribe in the best part of his land. Loaves were made for me daily,

and wine as daily fare, cooked meat, roast fowl, as well as desert game.

For they snared for me and laid it before me, in addition to the catch of my hounds. Many sweets were made for me, and milk dishes of all kinds. .........

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible...uhe-1900bc....

Wasn’t it a beautiful land and fulfillment of the LORD's blessing for Esau?:

28 May God give you of heaven's dew and of earth's richness— 

an abundance of grain and new wine.

Next, we will go back to the Bible to see if it's confirming The Story of Sinue, that it was Esau / Edom not Jacob / Israel, who was trully blessed by God with the fatness of earth and plenty of corn and wine.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Sorry. One of the links doesn't work; here is correct one:

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-ed...


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

And now back to the Bible to search who received the second and third part of the Blessing; the righteous or to deceiver?

Whom did the LORD really blessed with the fatness of earth and plenty of corn and wine.

Genesis 27

28 Therefore God give thee of :

# 2 - the fatness of the earth, 

and # 3 - and plenty of corn and wine.

But first let's look in to Webster's Dictionary for the definition of "Fatness":

1. (n.) The quality or state of being fat, plump, or full-fed; corpulency; fullness of flesh.

2. (n.) Hence; Richness; fertility; fruitfulness.

3. (n.) That which makes fat or fertile."

In Joshua 24:4 we read what God said to Moses:

Joshua 24:4 (NIV)

“4 and to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. 

I assigned the hill country of Seir to Esau, but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt."

You may wander, can mountainous territory of Seir, the LORD gave to Esau /Edom and his descendents, with elevation over 5000 feet, be: rich, fertile and fruitful?

In the Bible, Deuteronomy 2 we read how the LORD ordered Israelites not to attack descendants of Esau, and to buy meet and water from them; apparently, the Land of Seir where Esau settled was reach in water and also pastures for their cattle. 

Deuteronomy 2 reads:

“1 Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea, as the Lord spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir many days.

2 And the Lord spake unto me, saying,

3 Ye have compassed this mountain long enough: turn you northward.

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

6 Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink.”

Let's have a quick look at one of the maps on Internet marking one of the ideas how Israelites traveled from slavery in Egypt to the Land of Canaan:

http://worldcivilizations.yolasite.com/resources/o...

The Book of Numbers 20 (KJV) provide us with some more details about the riches of the land, telling us about wine yards and wells.

“14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us:

15 How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers:

16 And when we cried unto the Lord, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:

17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: 

we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: 

we will go by the King’s Highway, 

we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.”

There is another place in the Bible talking about green pastures of Edom. Chronicles I Ch 4:41-43 says:

41 The men whose names were listed came in the days of king of Judah. They attacked the Hamites in their dwellings and also the Meunites (Minaeans- see below) who were there and completely destroyed them, as is evident to this day. 

Then they settled in their place, because there was pasture for their flocks.

42 And five hundred of these Simeonites, led by Pelatiah, Rephaiah and Uzziel, the sons of Ishi, 

invaded the hill country of Seir. 

43 They killed the remaining Amalekites (Edomites) who had escaped, and they have lived there to this day."

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Chronicles%20I/index.ht...

English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible

The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, Including the Apocrypha.

Compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851

Chronicles I Chapter 4:41  reads:

"41 And these who are written by name came in the days of Ezekias king of Juda, and they smote the people’s houses, 

and the Minaeans whom they found there, 

and utterly destroyed them until this day: and they dwelt in their place, because there was pasture there for their cattle. 

42 And some of them, even of the sons of Symeon, went to mount Seir, even five hundred men; and Phalaettia, and Noadia, and Raphaia, and Oziel, sons of Jesi, were their rulers. 

43 And they smote the remnant that were left of Amalec, until this day."

Oh Vlad, I’ve almost forgot about Job, the second king of Edom and his reaches:

Job 1 (New International Version)

Prologue 

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. 

This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 

2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 

3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys,  and had a large number of servants. 

He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. 

So dear Vladku,  from these chapters of the Bible did you figure out that the second and third part of Isaac's blessing went also to Esau; however,  if it is not enough proof that Esau was blessed wit the reaches, than there is much more in outsite Biblical sources.

There were more riches of the soil of Seir, the LORD granted to Esau. 

 

Notice also that  this rugged mountainous region Seir, God granted to Esau as inherence,  held valuable deposits of copper and iron; mining and smelting were carried around modern Feinan, some 48 km (30 mi) south of Dead Sea.

Evidence can also be seen of the existence of ancient pine forests of considerable size.

 

On a top of this, Seir was situated at Strategic Position; Moses requested permission for Israel to travel over “the king’s road” trough Edom. (Numbers 20:17). 

This road, generally called the King’s Highway run from Kadesh Barnea on up to Damascus in Syria. Along it were to be found the major cities of Edom. 

Another route also led to East from Negeb through Ma’an on the edge of the Arabian Desert and connected there with another route running North and South.

Over these roads passed rich cargoes from Egypt, Arabia, Syria, and Mesopotamia. Tools collected from camel or donkey caravans traversing the roads contributed greatly to Esau’s / Edom’s wealth. 

As Moses and Israelites, weary desert travelers also paid for food and lodging upon reaching Seir.

The steep escarpment or wall of the plateau that faced the Arabah gave the main stronghold of Edom excellent protection from that direction. 

The deep canyon of the torrent valley of Zered impeded invasion from Moab. A chain of fortresses faced the desert to the ore vulnerable East, providing defence against Midianite and other nomadic tribes. Additionally the clefts that cut into the mountains and plateaus are generally walled in by unscalable red sandstone cliffs forming forbidding gorges.

With good reason God’s prophecy through Jeremiah speaks of the Edomites as confidently “residing in the retreats of the crag, holding the hight of the hill,” and like an eagle in its nest. _ Jer 49:7. 16.

Vlad, this is called the Blessing for the righteous, while the unrighteous  dwelled in the desserts of Egypt.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Before we finish with the material part of the Blessing God granted to Esau;

28Therefore God give thee of:

# 1 - the dew of heaven, 

# 2 - and the fatness of the earth, 

# 3 - and plenty of corn and wine,

and look in to the more  Spirittual part of the Blessing:

# 4 - Let people serve thee,

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee: 

# 6 - be lord over thy brethren, 

# 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

# 8 - cursed be every one that curseth thee,

# 9 - and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

we will look at one more example of the more material

part of Blessing which God granted to Esau.

We will look in to Jewish Virtual Library, into the 

"Book of Jubilees: A retelling and expansion of the biblical history from the Creation to Moses. It was originally written in Hebrew early in the second century B.C.E."

We will also looked to the Book of Jasher, and Testament of Twelve Patriarchs.

But first let's learn some more about these books:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaic...

MIDRASH VA-YISSA'U (Heb. ???????? ??????????), a medieval Midrash in Hebrew about the legendary wars of Jacob and his sons. 

The name derives from the first word of Genesis 35:5, with which the Midrash opens. The original name of the work is probably

 "The Book of Wars of the Sons of Jacob,"

 a name which is preserved in Na?manides' commentary on the Book of Genesis (to Gen. 34:13), the earliest reference to the existence of the legend. The small book contains three chapters.

 The first describes a war of Jacob and his sons against the army of Ninevites, who came to Palestine to subdue the whole world. Characteristic of this chapter are exaggerations which are lacking in the two other chapters, a style possibly influenced by the Book of Josippon. This chapter does not appear in some manuscripts, although two of them consist of it only, which indicates that it was possibly a later addition to the Midrash. 

The second chapter describes the wars of the sons of Jacob against the Amorite kings seven years after Jacob and his family withdrew from Shechem (Gen. 35:5) because of the defilement of Dinah and the events which followed. The story of the victory over the Amorite kings is opposed to that of the biblical narrative, where Jacob fears that he will be outnumbered and destroyed. However, the story of the victory is hinted at in Genesis 48:22, a verse which is quoted to this effect in the Midrash. 

The third chapter describes the war between Jacob and his sons and Esau and his sons, in which Esau is killed by Jacob and Esau's descendants become tributary to Jacob's family.

The medieval Hebrew book (with the exception of the first chapter) is a free translation from Greek (or Latin) of an old Jewish (Hebrew or Aramaic) text from the time of the Second Temple, a text which was also used by the authors of the Book of Jubilees and the Testaments of the Patriarchs: the wars against the Amorites are narrated in the Testament of Judah, chapters 3–7, and in an abbreviated form in Jubilees 34:1–9; and a parallel narrative to the war against Esau and his sons is preserved in Jubilees 37 and 38:1–14, and in an abbreviated form, in the Testament of Judah, chapter 9. 

The medieval Midrash Va-Yissa'u is of great importance for a reconstruction of the original ancient Jewish text. 

The ancient text, which was used by the Book of Jubilees and the extant Testament of Judah, and is the basis of chapters 2–3 of Midrash Va-Yissa'u, could have been a separate work. 

It seems more probable, however, that the common source of all three works, in their description of the war of Jacob and his sons against the Amorite kings and against Esau, was an older and more expanded form of the Testament of Judah than its extant form in the Testament of the Patriarchs, a situation similar to that of the Testament of *Levi and the Testament of *Naphtali. Some scholars see in the description of the wars against the Amorites and Esau a tendentious projection into the biblical past of the wars of John Hyrcanus against the Samaritans and Edomites, the descendants of Esau, and a historical justification of these wars. 

Midrash Va-Yissa'u was used, expanded, and rewritten in the medieval Sefer ha-Yashar ("Book of Jashar"). A critical edition was published with an introduction by J.Z. Lauterbach in Abhandlungen zur Erinnerung an H.P. Chajes (1933, Heb. pt. 205–22)."

So Vlad, let's have a look in to the very Jewish Book of Jubilee to find out if there is something about the riches of the earth, God granted to Esau.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

To get the big picture, let's read first what has happened to Esau; in to account which had been removed from the Bible.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/jub73.htm

The War between Jacob and Esau at the Tower of Hebron. The Death of Esau and Overthrow of his Forces (xxxviii. 1-4).

XXXVIII. 

And after that Judah spake to Jacob, his father, and said unto him: 

"Bend thy bow, father, and send forth thy arrows and cast down the adversary and slay the enemy; and mayest thou have the power, for we shall not slay thy brother, for he is such as thou, and he is like thee: let us give him (this) honour." 

2. Then Jacob bent his bow and sent forth the arrow and struck Esau, his brother, (on his right breast) and slew him. 

3. And again he sent forth an arrow and struck ’Adôrân the Aramaean, 3 on the left breast, and drove him backward and slew him. 

4. And then went forth the sons of Jacob, they and their servants, dividing themselves into companies on the four sides of the tower. 

5. And Judah went forth in front, and Naphtali and Gad with him and fifty servants with him on the south side of the tower, and they slew all they found before them, and not one individual of them escaped. 

6. And Levi and Dan and Asher went forth on the east side of the tower, and fifty (men) with them, and they slew the fighting men of Moab and Ammon. 

7. And Reuben and Issachar and Zebulon went forth on the north side of the tower, and fifty men with them, and they slew the fighting men of the Philistines. 

8. And Simeon and Benjamin and Enoch, Reuben's son, went forth on the west side of the tower, and fifty (men) with them, and they slew of Edom and of the Horites four hundred men, stout warriors; and six hundred fled, and four of the sons of Esau fled with them, and left their father lying slain, as he had fallen on the hill which is in ’Adûrâm.

 9. And the sons of Jacob pursued after them to the mountains of Seir. And Jacob buried his brother on the hill which is in ’Adûrâm, and he returned to his house. 

10. And the sons of Jacob pressed hard upon the sons of Esau in the mountains of Seir, and bowed their necks so that they became servants of the sons of Jacob.

 11. And they sent to their father (to inquire) whether they should make peace with them or slay them. 

12. And Jacob sent word to his sons that they should make peace, and they made peace with them, and placed the yoke of servitude upon them, so that they paid tribute to Jacob and to his sons always. 

13. And they continued to pay tribute to Jacob until the day that he went down into Egypt.  

14. And the sons of Edom have not got quit of the yoke of servitude which the twelve sons of Jacob had imposed on them until this day. 3"

Footnotes

182:2 According to later Jewish tradition Esau was killed by Chushim, son of Dan, at the cave of Machpelah when Jacob's corpse had arrived there for burial; cf. Pir?e de R. Eliezer xxxix. (towards end).

182:3 Cf. xxxvii. 9.

183:1 A city in Idumaea (Edom) identical with the "Adora" mentioned in 1 Macc. xiii. 20. It was captured by John Hyrcanus and forced to accept circumcision. in Test. Judah ix. 3 the name appears as Anoniram.

183:2 For 11-13 cf. Test. Judah ix. 7-8.

183:3 i. e. the author's day. Edom was finally made tributary to Israel by John Hyrcanus.

It makes you wander Vlad; what was the yoke of servitude, the children of Jacob / Israel had imposed on the children of Esau / Edom?

Why the Israelites were sent in to slavery in Egypt?


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Esau was man of a great conscience and as you know already Vlad, after Jacob has moved to Haran to serve his uncle Laban for 21 years, Esau has moved to Seir and become the king of Isin.

In the archaeological record of Sumer, Esau is mentioned as Lipit-Eshtar who inherited the throne of Isin from his uncle and father in law, Ishme-Dagan.

Esau/ Lipit-Ishtar (Lipit-Eshtar), was the fifth ruler of the first dynasty of Isin, and ruled from around 1934 BCE to 1924 BCE. 

Some documents and royal inscriptions from his time have survived, but he is mostly known because Sumerian language hymns written in his honor, as well as a legal code written in his name (preceding the famed Code of Hammurabi by about 200 years). 

The legal codes of Esau were used for school instruction for hundreds of years after his death.

So let’s continue our journey to find out the truth, how God blessed Esau and his children, with the abundance of grain and wine, before,  and after Esau was murdered by his brother Jacob.

"28 May God give you of heaven's dew and of earth's richness— an abundance of grain and new wine."

Let’s look now at the second of the early Jewish writings, which contain the continuation of the story from the Book of Jubilee. This fragment will tell us what was the yoke of servitude, the children of Jacob / Israel had imposed on the children of Esau / Edom:

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs

Second Century B.C.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.vi.html

IV.—THE TESTAMENT OF JUDAH (son of Jacob/Israel) CONCERNING FORTITUDE, AND LOVE OF MONEY, AND FORNICATION.

"9. Eighteen years we abode at peace, our father and we, with his brother Esau, and his sons with us, after that we came from Mesopotamia, from Laban. 

And when eighteen years were fulfilled, in the fortieth year of my life, Esau, the brother of my father, came upon us with much people and strong; and he fell by the bow of Jacob, and was taken up dead in Mount Seir: even as he went above Iramna was he slain. 

And we pursued after the sons of Esau. 

Now they had a city with walls of iron and gates of brass; and we could not enter into it, and we encamped around, and besieged them. 

And when they opened not to us after twenty days, I set up a ladder in the sight of all, and with my shield upon my head I climbed up, assailed with stones of three talents’ weight;

and I climbed up, and slew four who were mighty among them. 

And the next day Reuben and Gad entered in and slew sixty others. 

Then they asked from us terms of peace; and being aware of our father’s purpose, we received them as tributaries. 

And they gave us 

two hundred cors of wheat, 

five hundred baths of oil, 

fifteen hundred measures of wine, until we went down into Egypt.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.vi.html

Yes Vlad , are you convinced by now, that it was Esau and his children, not Jacob, who received the material part of the Blessing, with which Isaac blessed his sons?

I think that we can move now to the more Spiritual part of Isaac's Blessing.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good afternoon Gentlemen!

I am sorry I have not been able to keep up with your comments this last week. The first week of may is always my busiest.

Saggitarius, your knowledge of Esau's history and the books of the apocrapha/pseudepigrapha is very impressive. Although I get the impression that you hold them above the Bible and will consider the Bible merely an opinion to be disregarded if it differs from them. I am sorry, I am unable to put the Bible aside and I will always choose the Bible's view as God's truth. Only He sees the whole picture and can judge our hearts above our actions.

Vladku, I am so glad you keep the Bible in it's proper position and I am thankful for your knowledge and willingness to share it in this discussion. However, some of your comments to Sag, seem to be an attack on his person rather than a disagreement with his beliefs. I hope it is just a misunderstanding in translation, for this serves no purpose and is a poor reflection on Christ's love. It will never convince anyone, only make them more defensive.

Gentlemen, as long as we can agree that Jesus Christ is God, and that He came to earth and lived a perfect life as a man so that he could die for our sins in order that we can have a personal relationship with our Creator who loves us, and that all we have to do to have this wonderful relationship is to repent of our sins and accept his sacrifice, believing that we are forgiven and saved, this is the most important thing. Everything else we can agree to disagree on, and when we get to Heaven, perhaps we will meet Jacob and Esau and ask them ourselves. :)

That being said, God had already decided that Jacob would be the leader of His chosen people before they were even born and had the opportunity to do good or bad.

Romans 9: 10 - 12

"

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger"

The lesson here is that God is sovereign and what he desires will happen, no matter what path we chose to use to get there. In the end, everyone got exactly what God wanted them to have. I personally think that if they had just left it in God's hands, it would have worked out with a lot less grief. But they were human, as we are, and as we often do, take a harder road to get to where God is taking us.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good afternoon  April,

Welcome back to your hub; as you have noticed, we have made ourself very comfortable here, and we appreciate your welcoming atmosphere.

Thank you for your compliment regarding my knowledge of history of Esau, from the Bible and the other books.

To be honest, I'm still learning while exploring; and there is still so much to discover.

April, never put the Bible aside; it is a letter from God to us and He will not be happy if you would ignore it.

Read, explore, contemplate. 

I'm not writing another Bible, just a story about forgotten Patriarch, grandson of Abraham, firstborn and beloved son of Isaac.

Do I know everything, am I always right? Of course not; only the Almighty knows all.

I'm making mistakes, (not only the typo ones) and stupid babboos; like the one when I wrote that the Dukes of Edom were the "grandsons" of Esau and Oholibama, and sons of Jeush, Jallam and Korah.

It's obvious that the Dukes of Edom were not the grandsons, but grandchildren of Esau  and his wife Oholibamah; her name means "most high tent" or "tent shrine".

Some of those Dukes of Edom were ladies, so I shouldn't call them sons, but daughters and sons.

Esau and Oholibama had three sons; Jeush, Jalaam and Korah, and the firstborn of Jeush, (the one who welcomed Sinuhe, the Egyptian) was Timna.

 Timna was not the firstborn son, but the firstborn daughter, and as the firstborn she become the first Duke of Edom.

It was Duke Timna whom Jeush gave as a wife to the Egyptian Sinuhe.

After her the famous valley was named, the Timna Valley. There is interesting article on Wiki about this  valley:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timna_valley

However, I'm jumping to far forward. Let's go back to the Blessing; we will explore later how it was possible that women become the Dukes of Edom.

 


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

After the more material part of the Blessing (not the Birthright):

# 1 - the dew of heaven, 

# 2 - and the fatness of the earth, 

# 3 - and plenty of corn and wine,

 we will look in to the Spiritual part of the Blessing, which was reserved for the firstborn son at his father's death.

With this blessing, the firstborn son succeeded dying father as the head of the family.

Moreover, the blessing included a right to the Priesthood.

This  privilege, as also the headship of the family, to which it was attached, continued in force only when brothers dwelt together in the same house; for, as soon as they made a family apart and separated, each one became the head and priest of his own house.

We know that Jacob gained the Birthright (2/3 of father's inheritance), from his brother.

We also know by now, that Jacob wasn't successful in tricking the LORD in blessing him with material part of the Blessing and that this Blessing was granted to the firstborn son of Isaac, Esau.

Let see now if Jacob managed to get the Spiritual part of the Blessing; if not, then what did he get?

Genesis chapter 27 reads:

28Therefor:

# 4 - Let people serve thee,

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee: 

# 6 - be lord over thy brethren, 

# 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

# 8 - cursed be every one that curseth thee,

# 9 - and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

From Genesis 28 we know that shortly after the Blessing, Jacob received another blessing from his father, and went to his uncle Laban to find a wife for himself.

After being tricked by his uncle Laban, Jacob spent 21 years serving his uncle  by taking  care of his livestock; it wasn't quite what the Blessing was about:

# 4 - Let people serve thee,

On the other hand, when after 21 years of service to Laban, Jacob was escaping from his uncle, he mets Esau who came to welcome his brother, and with him came 400 men. We don't know who were those 400 men, however, with Esau statement:

 " 15And Esau said (to Jacob), Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me.",

we can figure out that those people were with Esau to serve him. 

After Esau become the King of Isin, there is no doubt that he had plenty of servants. 

From the Book of Job we know that his descendants, like Eliphaz - king of Thameans, Zepho - king of Minaeans, or Job - king of Edomites, surly did not lack servants. The Book of Job, Chapter 1 reads:

"3 His (Job's) substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

So Vladku, # 4 - Let people serve thee:

- to Jacob and his children?- No.

- to Esau and his descendants - Yes.

Next, let's look at the number 5:

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

As Genesis chapter 27 reads:

28Therefor:

# 4 - Let people serve thee,

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee: 

we will look now how this part of Isaac's Blessing have been fulfilled, and who was bowing down to whom.

Vladku, let's look first in to the Bible; at Esau and Jacob,  and then, in to history of theirs two nations: Edom and Israel.

Genesis chapter 33 tells us, how Jacob, escaping from serving Laban, met his brother Esau, and "bowed himself to the ground seven times, " - do you know what in Biblical terms means seven times?

Genesis 33  (KJV) reads:

"33 And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.

2 And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost.

3 And he passed over before them, 

and bowed himself to the ground seven times, 

until he came near to his brother.

4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept...

6 Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, 

and they bowed themselves.

7 And Leah also with her children came near, 

and bowed themselves: 

and after came Joseph near and Rachel, 

and they bowed themselves."

So far we see only one nation fulfilling the Blessing of Isaac, it was the nation of Israel bowing down to Esau:

# 5 - and nations bow down to thee: ;

However, looking again at Seir, the land God granted to Esau, we see that this land was the crossroads for caravans traveling north and south, as well as some of those traveling east and west. 

The land of Edom was connected by a well traveled path, known as the King's Highway. Along this road, goods from Egypt traveled to Babylon and back, and goods from southern Arabia traveled to the kingdoms in the north. This trade had existed for millennia after Esau's death. 

 Since many of the caravans traveled up the King's Highway, the land of Edom played an important role in the merchant world, and people crossing this roads were bowing down to Esau and his descendants.

After Esau become the fifth king of Isin and have  created law code which brought prosperity to Summer and Akad, there is no doubt that Nations were bowing down to him.

What about Jacob and all Israel? I don't remember events from the Bible when the Nations were bowing down to him.

So Vlad, 

were nations bowing down to Esau / Edom? - Yes; 

did they bowed down to Jacob / Israel? - No.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Genesis 33 (KJV)

1 And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.

2 And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost.

3 And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

5 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given 

thy servant.

6 Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, and they bowed themselves.

7 And Leah also with her children came near, and bowed themselves: and after came Joseph near and Rachel, and they bowed themselves.

8 And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight 

of my lord.

9 And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.

10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had 

seen the face of God, 

and thou wast pleased with me.

11 Take, I pray thee, my blessing that is brought to thee; because God hath dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough. And he urged him, and he took it.

12 And he said, Let us take our journey, and let us go, and I will go before thee.

13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.

14 Let my lord, 

I pray thee, pass over before his servant: and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto 

my lord unto Seir.

15 And Esau said, Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me. And he said, What needeth it? let me find grace in the sight

 of my lord.

16 So Esau returned that day on his way unto Seir.

17 And Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built him an house, and made booths for his cattle: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.

18 And Jacob came to Shalem, a city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Padanaram; and pitched his tent before the city.

19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for a hundred pieces of money.

20 And he erected there an altar, and called it EleloheIsrael."


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good Morning April and Vlad

The last of my posts - Genesis 33, should be placed on the end of this one; just silly mistakes of coping and pasting.

Let's have a quick look at the next two points of the Blessing; blessing, which most of the Bible readers falsely believe, went to Jacob / Israel, when in fact Genesis 33 clearly states that it was again Esau / Edom who received it.

Genesis chapter 27

28Therefor:

# 6 - be lord over thy brethren, 

# 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

To solve this mystery, all we have to do is flip some pages from Genesis 27 and stop at Genesis 33.

If you can believe your own eyes, you will also believe that this part of the Blessing went to Esau, not to the deceiver.

Let's  have a look at the whole chapter first:

Genesis 33.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

When we look at this chapter, Genesis 33, we see that upon meeting Esau, Jacob was calling Esau - "my Lord", and himself - thy servant:

"5 ...And he (Jacob) said, the children which God hath graciously given thy servant."

"8 And he (Esau) said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he (Jacob) said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord;"

"13 And he (Jacob) said unto him, My lord knoweth..."

"14 Let my lord, (Jacob said) I pray thee, pass over before his servant: and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto my lord unto Seir."

The Blessing in Genesis chapter 27 reads:

28Therefor:

# 6 - be lord over thy brethren, 

and the chapter 33 clearly says that Esau was the lord to his brother Jacob.

What about part 7 of the Blessing?

# 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: 

Isaac and Rebecca had only two sons, the firstborn Esau and his brother Jacob.

If the Blessing says - # 7 - and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee; 

and we see in Genesis 33, how Jacob is bowing down to Esau:

"3 And he (Jacob) passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother."

- then it is obvious that this part of the Blessing had been fulfilled as well, and the blessed one was again Esau, not Jacob.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

As with Abraham, I believe the blessing of Jacob is in the fact that his line would become God's chosen people and that Jesus would be from his nation. There is no doubt that every nation will serve and bow to Jesus.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Good evening April,

Hope you and your family had a pleasant week.

We both agree that there is no doubt that every nation will bow to Christ; However,  will all the nations be willing to serve Him? Will they be able to see the difference between Christ and Antichrist? I don't know.

The first part of your statement is a mater of looking for facts in the Bible, not mainstream opinions.

Please be patient with me, as soon as we finish with the Blessing and the Curse of Isaac, we can have a quick look on the Blessing of Abraham.

Going back to the Blessing of Isaac we have only two points to go trough:

Genesis chapter 27 reads:

28Therefor:

"# 8 - cursed be every one that curseth thee,

# 9 - and blessed be he that blesseth thee. "

The first people to somehow cursed Esau was His mother Rebecca and his brother Jacob. 

Rebecca knew that she might be in trouble when she said in Genesis 27:

"13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them."

The LORD knew all the way what was going on and Isaac found out about the deception pretty soon. As a result of the deception, Jacob have been sent to his uncle Laban for 21 years to serve him, and Rebecca got the curse and have disappeared from the Bible not to be mentioned again.

 Isaac survived the Blessing by several decades and Esau was blessed with all the blessing he could get. 

People of Seir, who had blessed Esau, were blessed with riches, peace (Story of Sinue), and Dukes of Edom.

  Seir become the place where the LORD stayed with his people, and where worship of  Yahveh originated.  

"Yahweh ( /?j??we?/ or /?j??hwe?/; Hebrew: ?????), often rendered Jehovah /d???ho?v?/ or the LORD (in small capitals), is the god of Israel in the Hebrew Bible. Yahweh is a modern scholarly vocalization of the name as it appears in Hebrew, where it is written without vowels as ???? (YHWH), called the Tetragrammaton.

Yahweh was not a Canaanite god, and modern scholars see him originating in Edom (Seir),  the region south of Judah.[1][2]...

Originally the main god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, worship of Yahweh alone (monotheism) became entrenched in Judaism in the exilic and Persian periods.[3]

The Bible describes Yahweh as the god who delivered Israel from Egypt and gave the Ten Commandments[4] and says that Yahweh revealed himself to Israel as the LORD who would not permit his people to make idols or worship other gods[5] "I am Yahweh, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, or My praise to idols."[6]"

From Wikipedia 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh#section_3


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Hello Sagittarius!

Please forgive me for overlooking your comment for so long. I have gotten very discouraged over my low hub views and have been avoiding the hub for the last few weeks.

I have been enjoying the time with my boys though. School is out so they are home every day now. We are enjoying the freedom of a more relaxed schedule. Although I don't know how much writing I will get done!

Anyway, I do believe that the Bible indicates that every person will bow and confess Jesus as Lord and worship Him alone.

Philippians 2:10, 11 kjv "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 15:3,4 kjv "Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest"

I think to worship Him and confess Jesus as Lord (which means master) is an indication of a willingness to serve.

The Antichrist will only fool for a time and when Jesus returns there will be no doubt who is really God.

I get the impression from your comments that you do not see YHWH as the one true God who has always existed, the creator of the earth and everything in it, including us, but rather a god who arrived much later on the scene after many nations were established.

Just because the Canaanites and the other nations chose not to worship Jehovah and made up their own false gods to worship does not mean that He didn't exist and wasn't worshipped. (reguardless of what wikipedia says)

The Bible clearly says that YHWH existed before the world.

Psalm 90:2(KJV) "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

And we see YHWH at creation

Genesis 2:4b "in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

Cain killed his brother over sacrifice to YHWH and there were many who followed YHWH long before the nation of Israel ever existed.

Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, Elohim, Adonai whatever you choose to call Him, there is only one real God who holds the power of true Deity(all powerful, all knowing, all present, eternal, Creator). He has always existed and we have the awesome privilage to be known by Him and to get to know Him personally! To know that He knows and loves you and I is my greatest joy in life.

I cannot reduce Him to the same level as the false gods and idols that the people and nations of the past chose to worship. Nor can I ignore the Bible and believe that he and worship of him originated in the Iron Age.

Oh and Rebekah is mentioned a couple more times in the Bible after Genesis 27:13. Gen 27:42, 46; Gen 28:5; Gen 29:12;Gen 35:8; Gen 49:31; and Romans 9:10.

I hope that I have just misunderstood your beliefs, but who God is, is to important to me to not clarify.

Enjoy your day and I hope to get over my discouragement and get back on the hub and into writing again this summer!


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

April, awesome writing. Thanks.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Hello Vladku, nice to see you again on April's hub.

Vlad, several posts ago you have written:

"I don't care what Edomites did or wrote. They were enemies of God's chosen people."

 

Can you please provide me with some historical examples to support your idea, that the Edomites were hostile towards the Israelites?


Martus 4 years ago

Hi April Reynolds.

Thanks for very insightfully hub. Well written, giving practical and historical facts.

One is presented to "investigate" some elementary as well as historical , natural and supernatural objectives relevant to life here and now as well as the life eternal.

This your one of the latest respon to a "comment--ator" indicate your solid faith in our Almighty God and the heavenly Father-- as well as uncompromising standing upon the Scriptures. Congratulations.

The Nicodemus phenomena is being one of the "key" episode in the life of the DISCIPLES of the Lord Jesus the Annointed One , concerning the Kingdom of God and the Children of God in His Kingdom. [Soon a hub coming featuring the matter.]

Regarding the "comments" in this hub,-seems to me being--kind--of ""hijackers--mecca "". A reader has been seeing a frequently injected into some other hubs a "PROBLEM" of "Esau", or "Edomites" or "Malahet?" , or "Mazrith" some kind of problem of "Code of Lipitor--Ishtar..."

???Jesus and Esau are the same person???

Wouldn't be a DIALOQUE conversation between two or more persons, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement?

Seems to me we are facing kind of an inflamed rethorick leading off the subject-- toward unrelated agenda...

My humble plea would be to have an intelligible and fair presentation of the Scriptural Truth, in order do defuse a confusing rhetorick.

Let's focus on productive results ,helpful the searching souls to find the directin everybody needs, the peace with God and the life everlasting by believing in Jesus Christ and His redeeming love.He is the one who died and rose from the dead for our justification.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Thank you for your kind words Martus. The Bible and who God is, is very important to me. I am glad that you were able to determine that in my hub.

I do believe that we came to an agreement that Esau and Jesus are definately not the same person, but over all I do not feel the need to agree on the issues that are not from the Bible. The Bible is the only thing I trust to be the complete and absolute truth. Anthing else is subject to the personal agendas of the authors.

Rather I strive to bring everything back to the truth that we do find in the Bible. I thought that I was doing ok at presenting that truth clearly. Please forgive me if I have done a poor job of that.

I do not want to be someone who argues over issues that are secondary to Biblical truths without taking every opportunity to defend and present a truthful view of God, Jesus and the Bible. But I also can't let statements that go against my beliefs to stand undefended.

Thank you for pointing out what is truely important and helpful for the souls who read our hubs!


Vlad 4 years ago

Sagitarius2012

you are religious

I am the believer

there is Red Sea

between you and me

you are welcome here

you must to come

I cannot go back

Jesus loves you Sag. He said: you have to be born again (John 3:3).


Martus 4 years ago

April Reynolds,

You are doing wanderfully. There is nothing to forgive you for doing a "poor job." If by any chance my comment has caused any indicatin of " judging", please forgive me. Thank you. My aim is to let to know to those who are off the subject, yet pushing their own agenda of confusion and despair.

We want to edify the believers, and bring sinners into the family of God.

You are correct about not wanting to argue. It's my choice also. Our Lord Jesus the Annointed Son of the Most High God, the God Himself does not wants us to argue. No need of it. We are presenting the Truth -- each-one-of-us at the level of our spiritual maturity. That's acceptable to our Master, since He knows our heras, and He is rewarding our faithfulness by increasing revelation after revelation as soon we faithfully share and do live the previously given.

Thus we help each-other in building up the faith and furthering the kingdom of God as commanded. Simuntaniously are uplifted and strengthened all who read, receive and believe the message spread.

May you be steadfast in doing what the Lord Jesus is giving you to do, so we can be blessed continually. Amen.


April Reynolds profile image

April Reynolds 4 years ago from Arizona Author

Good Morning Sagittarius,

I hope you are looking forward to a good weekend. It will be a hot one here in the desert.

I just wanted to let you know that the hostility of the Edomites towards the Israelites is recorded in Numbers 20:14 - 21 and again in Judges 11:17.

Although God protected them and allowed them to prosper as sons of Issac, they still chose to follow other gods and did not worship the one true God. For this reason the God told the Israelites not to intermarry with them. (1Kings 11: 1,2)

They did not have the blessing of His presence as Israel did.


Sagittarius 2012 profile image

Sagittarius 2012 4 years ago from Canada

Hello April,

Now you please forgave me for overlooking your comments for so long; I have my ups and downs too.

Please don't worry about the views of your hub; you are doing excellent job, and the quality not the quantity of visitor’s counts.

Remember that the Blessing is much more important than the "birthright/points".

Enjoying times with your boys, that's a blessing; sometimes we don't realize it until it is too late.

To serve Jesus is to serve others, including your own boys.

April, you have misunderstood my idea about YHWH.

What Wikipedia says is that YHWH was worshiped in Edom / Seir long before Israelites were released from the slavery in Egypt.

YHWH was the God of Abraham, and was the God which has been continuously worshiped in the land of Edom / Seir, by Esau and his descendants like Eliphaz, Zophar and Job.

One of Esau's descendants, Jethro the Priest of Midian, welcomed escaping from Egypt Moses, and gave him his daughter as a wife.

It was Jethro, the descendent of Esau, who taught Moses the Hebrew language, script and gave Moses the knowledge about YHWH and His law.

April, you don't think that YHWH was sitting on the burning bush dictating Torah, while Moses was carving it on the stone tablets - it would take forever.

On the other hand, when we read Genesis 28: 16-22,

we clearly see that Jacob didn't know YHWH when he said:

"20 ... If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go,

and will give me bread to eat,

and raiment to put on,

so that I come again to my father's house in peace;

then shall the Lord be my God:"

What if not? What if YHWH did not provide protection to Jacob?

Would YHWH be still Jacob's God, or would Jacob choose another God?

We know that Jacob was cheated by his uncle Laban, to work 20 years, taking care of Laban's livestock; to work for a wife who died before he got back to his father house. We know that Jacob had never seen his mother again.

Was this a Blessing, protection?

The whole statement of Jacob is ridiculous, so let's have a look at it again:

"16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.

17 And he was afraid, and said,

How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God,

and this is the gate of heaven.

18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it…

20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace;

then shall the Lord be my God:

22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar,

shall be God's house:

and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee."

So, the house of YHWH is a dreadful place?

and a stone should be a YHWH's house?

And of all granted by YHWH we should give only 1/10 back?

We know that Jacob wasn't blessed by YHWH on his 25 years journey, so who was the next god of Jacob?

April, before I will respond to your next comment about “the hostility of the Edomites towards the Israelites”, please have a look at couple interesting maps of Edom, with localization of Kadesh-barnea.

Numbers 20:14-21 King James Version (KJV)

14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh-barnea unto the king of Edom, …

…we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:

17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells:

we will go by the king's high way,

we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders.”

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/biblemaps/map...

http://nabataea.net/Photos/fig01.jpg

and couple more photos of the Kings Highway, which five or six millions of Israelites wanted to cross, just to have a nice walk around the Dead Sea:

http://places.mongabay.com/jordan/petra_canyon.jpg

http://blog.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/dmar.../dmarek/12/1303615899/filename=6_leaving-petra.jpg

Have a nice day ?


Vladimir Uhri profile image

Vladimir Uhri 4 years ago from HubPages, FB

Madam April, my sis. People are talking and saying nothing. Since they went away from Lord God (YHVH ELOHIM)they are believing incredible ridiculous things. They are creating new history then today original was hijacked by pagans. The Lord is always translated from YHVH and God from ELOHIM. Notice that Jesus name contains YHVH consonance. YeHoshuVaH = YHVH. He visited earth before He was born in Bethlehem since He is eternal (pre-existent one)as His Father is. It was Lord YHVH who visited Abraham on the way to Sodom. Let us made man to our image... Are we family? So God is. Sorry I cannot write Hebrew since it would change to ??????? (question-marks). It is that YeHoshuVaH "last name" is also ELOHIM. I am sure our small brain cannot contain it, but our heart (spirit) by faith and love can.

Jesus is Ben Elohim. We cannot forget that false prophets will come. Lairs will not enter kingdom of God. Rev 21:8 say: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (sexually immoral), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIAR, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Agape.

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