A Rebuttal to Moonfroth's Arguments Concerning Christianity

The Mistake of Atheists

The common most mistake that atheists make about us Christians is to assume that we fall into any pattern whatsoever, much less believe in the trinity, (although I do).

When I say, "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", I'm speaking of three different aspects of the same entity, which are indivisible.

Perhaps Moonfroth is concerned that we waste our time on unprofitable argument. You know the like. One part of the congregation wants blue prayer books, the other red. One group of Christians love speaking in tongues, others don't. In some churches the ladies wear skirts, while in other churches clean jeans are fine.

Well, we do a lot of that, no argument there. Perhaps it's that we Christians are never really given our due, nor is our God Jesus. We are still reading a book (the Bible), that was written many years ago, by a desert people, a Jewish people. We hardly seem to be keeping up with the times.

But all that changed when our Savior Jesus, (or Yeshua bar Yusef ) or Joshua bar Joseph, but by any name, he spoke of a better world, and we follow him because we want to be better. We want to be like him. We want to be long-suffering, and not punch self-righteous atheists in the face.

The argument of factuality is brought up. How did Cain and Abel get wives, if they were the first children? Was Jonah really able to be in the belly of a whale? I don't think these are things Christians gloss over. I know for me it was a twenty year struggle to finally say, whether or not it's true doesn't matter. Christ's personal message matters.

There is then our past sins in Christianity, and bear them we must. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the awful burning of "witches" It is sad, sometimes unbearable. Many a day, I was ashamed, and stood silent around non-believers. I don't do that now. I realize that Christianity can be grossly twisted. But, I do know this; if one really, really listens to the Lord's message, there is no room for war, or hate, or oppression, or violence, or prejudice.

This is that nut, that kernel of goodness, is what we hunger for. When one is close to the Lord, separation is painful. One feels fatherless, friendless. When one has drawn near this unseen entity, one wishes to never leave.

I was speaking yesterday to this gal I've been praying for .. She had cancer. She doesn't now We were happy, with tears in our eyes. I wasn't surprised. Every person I've prayed for to have their cancer cured has been cured. Is it by chance? Most Christians believe it's not.

I believe, eventually, along with Higgs Boson, that we will prove that thought can change one's surroundings. What is prayer, but good thoughts, good intent? On some nanolevel, on some molecular level, we will find that Christ, with his very odd and miraculous message of forgiveness and love had it right. We are what we think.

Comments 11 comments

AudreyHowitt profile image

AudreyHowitt 15 months ago from California

I knew that Clark's post would be controversial--I think this will lead to some lively debate


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 15 months ago from Wasilla, Alaska Author

I hope so! Hello, Hyphen, Nell, Will! Love yazlil


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 15 months ago from Tasmania

Lillian, you might have lots of success re-winning over those who are already converted.

I doubt if Moonfroth will be very impressed, but I look forward to his usual poetic reply.


whonunuwho profile image

whonunuwho 15 months ago from United States

Lillian, we live in a world of insanity.Our individual faiths in our creator and religious beliefs is the cement and source of our strength. Thank you for your worthy response and blessings my friend. whonu


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 15 months ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico)

Lily--thanks for your thoughtful reply. Grant me the liberty of compressing yourristian Story Hub: you aren't particularly interested one way or the other in the minutiae of the Christian Story. You ARE interested in Jesus's various messages of love, compassion, peace, caring, and embracing Humanity. To enfold your Self and your actions in his love, you are a believing Christian. What reasonable person could object tede hat? I think the VALUES inherent in the Gospels are marvellous. The Ten Commandments are relevant here--again, with the exception of the Commandments pertaining to subservience to God--which I will NOT book onto--the Commandments are pretty sound rules for living a good life among one's fellows. What your Hub does NOT address too fully is the specific issue of what I call the "logical absurdity" of the Trinity as the total Godhead. Months ago, in a poetry group, a poet friend of mine wrote a piece that addresses these issues directly. Here's an excerpt from his poem:

[A tripartite God,

Who is indivisible

& His Own father,

becomes His Own Son, a mortal,

Who is & isn’t Himself,

born of a virgin,

who is & isn’t His mother,

then dies & resurrects

again to become Himself

after sacrificing Himself to Himself

to redeem what He could have forgiven,

Sin He created when He created free will]

“Totally irrational,

except for the First Cause argument,

once you assume the Universe has a cause.”

Doubts filled Thomas, too.

• What’s real is palpable & what isn’t

doesn’t exist, being unreal!

“So Jesus puts it on faith:

‘If you have but the faith of a mustard seed,

you can move mountains,’”

{Learned in India,

“which made Gandhi smile

reading the New Testament]

Now, I'm not holding up this excerpt as a definitive argument "against" the Trinity. Nor would the poet friend who wrote it. But the excerpt DOES illustrate the latent absurdity of symbolic structures like the Trinity, ONCE FAITH IS REMOVED. It is faith and faith alone that sustains the deep Chritian Beiever who--unlike you, Lily--books on to the entire package, everything in the Bible is to be believed absolutely. And for those aspects of it all that defy ANY kind of explanation, well, "God works in mysterious ways his Wonders to perform.". If He chooses, perhaps some day He'll explain these cloudy matters. Since He and He alone knows everything, if He chooses to deny us Understanding, we can have Faith tht tere's a good reason for that. Have Faith.

In fact. In FACT. In FACT-- discussions like this are introduced by people like me, who are interested in the process, the interchange, the occasional leaps in awareness and understanding that come from open dialectic and debate. I have no expectatin of resolution, because those who totally believee in what the Trinity stands for can do so ONLY from a lplatform of Faith. That's their trump card..............and I both get it, and I respect it, especially when it results in a peron as obviously loving and caring as you, Lily. But while I laud the results, I do find the method of defaultin;g to faith rather tiresome, because we alwas seem to end up in the same place. Devout DOUBTERS are, I must admit, more exciting "partners in debate". With doubters, there's always a chance................


WillStarr profile image

WillStarr 15 months ago from Phoenix, Arizona

I'm astounded, although I should expect it by now, by your simple elegance, Lily.

Like you, I don't dwell on theological arguments. I simply accept that God is real, that His Son was resurrected, and that the Holy Spirit is in us and all around us.

Sleep tight.


whonunuwho profile image

whonunuwho 15 months ago from United States

I like to write about my faith and that of others. It gives me strength in the process and hopefully, blesses others in the process. Everyone has a right to express how they feel about religious matters.Those who do not agree with us, have no right to condemn or criticize anyone about how they view their faith. We should respect everyone even if we don't agree with everything they say. Appreciate your strong stand my friend. whonu


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 15 months ago from Tasmania

@whonunuwho "Those who do not agree with us, have no right to condemn or criticize anyone about how they view their faith. We should respect everyone even if we don't agree with everything they say."

Absolutely agree with you. And of course it cuts both ways.... those without faith should be equally respected, without being subject to the presumption they need faith.


whonunuwho profile image

whonunuwho 15 months ago from United States

Well said my friend. whonu


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 15 months ago from Wasilla, Alaska Author

Thank you Audrey, Will, Who, Johnny, I appreciate your cohesive words... it makes writing a pleasure! Thank you Moon, for your very amazing reply, has anyone seen Hy, Nell? Love yaz all, take care... lily


Nell Rose profile image

Nell Rose 15 months ago from England

Hiya lily, I don't know the before's of this argument, somehow I missed out, lol! but I can never understand why people have a problem with others belief. each to his own I say, and always lovely to see you, nell

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