What Is The Original Sin?

A Witty, Divinely, Devilish take on The Original Sin!

© 2005 VVeasey Publishing

09/03/12

First let’s look at the text that describes the sin:

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (Genesis 2)

This is God’s command in Genesis 2:16 but in Genesis 3: 1-9 we find

1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any creature that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree of the garden’?" 2 and the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but God said, ‘you shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’" 4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

9 But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" 10 And he said, "I heard the sound of thee in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself." 11 He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12 The man said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I ate."

(Next go to verse 22.)

22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live for ever"--------23therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground form which he was taken. (All Quotes King James Version)

bout!

Now My Commentary

This is the story of the so-called “Original Sin” of the first man and woman, who by their sinning caused all who descend from them (us) to be born in sin. What was their deadly sin? ---- Disobedience of the ultimate authority figure’s (God) command!

This story represents the age-old conflict between the individual’s desire to develop into his or her own authority and religious or social authority’s desire to keep the individual dependent and subservient to its will.

It appears that God is mad because the man disobeyed his command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And because the woman influenced by the talking serpent (if you believe in talking serpents), influenced the man to disobey him also. (Verse 11-13)


Symbolism

The man symbolizes the animal man, made from the dust of the ground, and represents the instinctive, animal intelligence in humans. The woman, made from the man’s rib, is a higher development of intelligence than the animal man and represents the more self-motivated, human intelligence in humans.

The animal man is content to go along with the dictates of authority or nature, but the woman (human intelligence) is more curious and wants to investigate things for herself. Every person contains both these male and female factors: Male sperm and female ovum. So this first man and woman are in everyone.

God symbolizes those in authority who want to keep the individual dependent and under control. The serpent represents an even more advanced state of intelligent self-awareness, that’s equal to that of the authority figures, but since the individual is still not aware of this part of its self, that intelligence is projected as something outside of its self (the serpent).


They Didn't Die

God tells the man (he's not called Adam at this point in the story) not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil cause on that day he will surely die. (Genesis 2, verse 17) Well that didn’t happen. The man and the woman ate the fruit on that day and didn’t die. (Genesis 3, verse 6-7)


God Is All Knowing

God is all knowing, but doesn't know where the man is and asks where he is after he and his wife hid themselves after eating from the fruit of the forbidden tree. “But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" (Genesis 3, verse 8-9)

God obviously wasn’t aware of what had taken place in his absence so he asks the man, "Who told you that you were naked?" (Verse 11) He asks the woman, "What is this you have done?" (Verse 13)

Sounds like he already knew what had occurred, doesn’t it?


The Talking Serpent

But is the real reason God's angry because they disobeyed him or could there be another reason he’s angry they ate the fruit of the tree? We’ll answer that question in due time.

You’ve heard that Satan in the form of a serpent caused Adam and Eve to sin. (Although so far in this story they’re still called the man and the woman.)

Nowhere in this story does it say that this talking serpent was Satan. The text just states that, "Now the serpent was more subtle than any wild creature that the Lord God had made." (Genesis 3, verse 1.)

Some meanings of subtle are: Fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand; delicate faint or mysterious, characterized by or requiring mental acuteness, penetration or discernment; cunning, wily or crafty; also insidious in operation (Random House College Dictionary).

In other words the serpent symbolizes a high degree of intelligence.

The serpent was regarded as a symbol of wisdom and healing in various cultures for thousands of years before the bible was written. Even Jesus recognized the serpent as a symbol of wisdom, he says, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". (Matthew 10, verse 16)

Ironically, in the book of Numbers, God is even depicted as utilizing the serpent as a vehicle of healing.“And the LORD said unto Moses, "Make thee a fiery serpent and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live". And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21, verse 8-9) (The Revised Standard Version)

I guess God had a change of heart about the serpent.

Even in the gospel of John the serpent is represented as a model of Jesus' ability to grant believers eternal life.: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John, 3 verse 14-15)

If the serpent is evil how do we account for these discrepancies or positive associations with the serpent?

Even in the Garden of Eden story the serpent is the personification of mental acuteness, penetration or discernment, "Now the serpent was more subtle than any creature that the Lord God had made." (Genesis 3, verse 1)


The Father Of Lies

Since it’s been said that Satan, the serpent, is a liar and the father of lies, let’s see what the serpent said that that was a lie and how he misled the man and the woman."The serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3, verse 4-5)

In verse 22-24 we read, "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Lest he put forth his hand and take also of he tree of life and eat and live forever----therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken."

Did they die after they ate from the tree? No they didn’t.

The Lord God even had to kick them out of the Garden before they ate from the tree of life and live forever! The Lord God confirmed that what the serpent told the woman was true (Verse 22).

If the serpent didn’t lie can he be Satan the father of lies?


The Real Reason God's Angry

Could the reason the Lord God be so alarmed is because the man (and the woman) had become like one of them, and would be equal to them if they ate from the tree of life and he didn't want that to happen? (Second part of verse 22)

I think the answer to this question and the one we said we would answer in due time, is yes!

Even later in the Tower of Babel story the Lord God, now referred to as the Lord seems worried about mankind becoming too powerful and out of his control. “And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city". (Genesis 11, verse 5-8)

The Lord purposely created division and misunderstanding between people when they were united with one language and one purpose, so they wouldn't become too powerful or out of his control.


Who Is The Us God Is Referring To?

And by the way who is the us he’s referring to here?, “let us go down there and confound their language” (Genesis 11, verse 7) and here “Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us”. (Genesis 2, verse 22). Well let's see if we can clear up this mystery.

Lord is translated from the Hebrew word, Yahweh. God is translated from the Hebrew word Elohim. Elohim is the plural of the word El (God) and means Gods. The phrase "the Lord God should read” Yahweh-Elohim" or "the Lord of the Gods" not “The Lord God” (Strong’s Lexicon).

So the “us" is his companion Gods. This explains who the us in the text is and makes it's use make more sense.

Even in the Ten Commandments God (El) acknowledges that there are other gods besides him.

“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me”. (Exodus 20, verse 2)

He doesn't say there aren't any other Gods. He just says have no other gods before him. He wants to be the only God for Israel, as a man wants to be the only husband for his wife!

The translators of these texts were either so hypnotized by their belief that there was only one God in the Old Testament that they didn't notice this contradiction, or they just choose to ignore it.


Free Will!

God is said to have given man free will and made him a free moral agent, but when the man and the woman exercise their free will what does he do? He punishes them! If God punishes us for using our wills in defiance of his will, are our wills really free?

If we’re coerced into obeying God’s will out of fear of being punished by God, is that free will or is that coercion? Free will that has to operate within the boundaries set by God’s will is a limited free will at best.


What Happened To The Talking Serpent?

It’s interesting that the talking serpent doesn’t appear as an active character in the story after Adam and Eve get banished from the garden. It’s as if it were only put in the story to make a point.

The only other mention of the serpent is when God places a curse on it."The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Genesis 3, verse 14-15).

This means the authority figures will make it more difficult for the more self-motivated individual (symbolized by the woman) to advance to a degree of awareness and independence equal to their own (symbolized by the serpent). The serpent certainly seemed to know what God's motives were, for not wanting the man and woman to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil didn’t It! (Again that’s if you believe in talking serpents!)

But as I pointed out earlier if God cursed the serpent why is he using it as a source of healing in Numbers 21:8-9?

Please don’t tell me that he’s God and he can do that! Use your intelligence. Examine the texts in question. Try to answer the question. “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”(John 8, verse 32)


Psychological Symbolism

Psychologically, the man, the woman, and the serpent all represent different aspects of the individual’s developing self-awareness. They’re all parts of the same individual though they’re portrayed as being different characters.

The trees represent different kinds of awareness and knowledge.

Eating the fruit represents assimilating or waking up to the knowledge of morality (knowledge of good and evil). If you believe there was an actual tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You probably believe that a “branch of knowledge” is an actual branch on a tree as well.

After eating the fruit they’re eyes were opened they knew they were naked and made aprons (Genesis 3, verse 7). Meaning they became morally self-aware.

They sewed fig leaves together and hid themselves (Genesis 3, verse10).They were aware that they had done something wrong, felt guilty and tried to hide it. But before they ate the fruit they were morally ignorant and innocent like young children. God was morally aware like adults. After eating the fruit they become morally aware like God (Adults).


Who Wrote This Story

I think that priests wrote this story to show what bad things would happen to independent thinking individuals who attempt to make decisions outside of their authority.They used the idea of an ultimate authority figure, God, (a male deity, the males controlled all position of authority in the Hebrew tribes) who would cause all kinds of bad things to befall those who act on their own initiative or disobey his will (their will).

They said that God gave the priests, prophets, and the patriarchs authority over the people and being the mouthpiece of God the people were to obey them the same way they were to obey God.

From my point of view the “Original Sin” is the very thing that makes us human: the ability to make free choices, act on our own initiative, attain maturity and status equal to that of our parents or other authority figures, even when that conflicts with the dictates of society, culture or religion.

In the Garden of Eden story the writer depicts these qualities as undesirable and the personification of evil!

We all go through the Garden of Eden experience when we’re born. As infants and toddlers we have no sense of right or wrong or good and evil (like Adam and Eve didn’t). Along the way we learn that some things we do are bad and others good, (like Adam and Eve eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil).The original bad thing is disobeying our parents or those who assume responsibility for us (like Adam and Eve disobeyed God).

Disobeying the Lord God was the “Original Sin”, that Adam and Eve committed, but before gaining the knowledge of good and evil they didn’t know it was wrong to disobey God, only that God didn’t want them to eat from the tree (just as we didn’t know it was wrong to disobey our parents until they taught us it was wrong).

When they became aware that disobeying the Lord God was wrong they tried to hide what they did (as we tried to hide what we did when we were caught disobeying our parents). When they were confronted with their disobedience they blamed someone else (we all did this and some of us still do.).

The Lord God kicked them out of the garden (out of his favor or good graces) and supposedly humans have been trying to get back in the garden ever since (back into his good graces) just as we tried to get back in our parents good graces after disobeying them or making them angry.

The so called “Fall of Man” symbolizes the “fall” of the developing infantile, human mind, out of a state of moral innocence and ignorance into a state of moral awareness and self responsibility. Unless we go through this experience we can never become independent, morally, self responsible adults, responsible for our choices and the results of those choices.

Barring that, someone else will always be responsible or the blame for our choices and the results of our choices.

This is how I see this story and how this all appears to me. If you see it differently, so be it, that’s your prerogative, as this is mine.

For those of you who take this story literally, my explanation will seem like blasphemy! But be that as it may.The only place talking serpents exist, is in movies, cartoons and insurance commercials.

But for those of you who don’t this story literally. Hopefully, this has been a refreshing and enlightening experience for you, and has given you something to think about.

Please Cast Your Vote!

After Reading This Hub, Do You Believe In The Original Sin?

See results without voting

More by this Author


Comments 78 comments

Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Weasey, this hub took a lot of work. It is very interesting. Let us just say I preach to young adults every Sunday. At least once during every sermon I see several faces, reflecting young people with doubts and kind of daydreaming off into the distance. That is just the human condition. I hope they learn to articulate doubts as well as you, so as you do, they continue to grow.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

Thanks for your comments!

They make me smile!


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Thanks, that is the best compliment you can give!


MaestroECMcCloud profile image

MaestroECMcCloud 4 years ago from Lexington, South Carolina

Excellent hub Bro VVeasey. Kudos.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Thanks Maestro!

I appreciate that you can appreciated it!


cheaptrick profile image

cheaptrick 4 years ago from the bridge of sighs

Well done.I've always suspected the garden story was about self awareness,perhaps a stage of human evolution,a wave of self awareness sweeping humanity forward.Wonderful food for contemplation as we take care of every day details,such is life.

Dean


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Thanks

Dean

I appreciate it!

I read your profile about how creativity springs from chaos.

Im interested to hear your description of what you call chaos


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

2 Cor 10:5 “We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.” Thus, I offer the following Biblical clarifications to what you’ve stated in this hub, which is contrary to the Word of Christ.

Rev 12:9 clarifies that the serpent in the garden (the only mention of a serpent being cursed) was indeed Satan using that created beast of the field: “And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”

Rom 5:12 tells us death entered the world because sin entered the world through Adam: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—“ This is not an immediate death, but the first and second death (Rev 20:14).

The ‘Us’ in Gen 3:22 is not speaking of ‘gods’, which is the English translation of the word ‘elohim’, but those mentioned in the definition of elohim H430 (angels, magistrates). The LORD God was speaking to them. How do we know this? Look at Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God [El] formed, And there will be none after Me.” Not only was there not another God [El] formed, there certainly were not any gods [Elohim] in the manner that He is GOD [El]. When the LORD God says we are not to have any other gods before Him, He’s speaking of THINGS/spirits man worships as ‘gods’ – Idolatry! Even the golden calf (Ex 32:4). This is why Satan is called 'the god of this world', for man makes him a 'god'. (2 Cor 4:4)

God is not ‘worried’ about man becoming like Him! It was designed that man be like Him, for we were made in His image! (Gen 1:27). Rather, after the fall, man became like God’s Adversary, seeking to rise above God’s throne! Thus, the tower of Babel, too! John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

The reason God did not want man eating from the tree of life, in his fallen state, is that he would eternally be in his fallen state. Physical death was the judgment, and because of sin, man dies in his sin, destroying his eternal LIFE. John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

This is why Jesus lived without sin as the last Adam and died in RIGHTEOUSNESS, to redeem us, that we not die in our sin. It is through faith (being born again of the Spirit) and submission to the LORD, man will be restored to his pre-fallen state for all eternity. 1 John 3:2 “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.”


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Judah's Daughter

thanks for commenting your certainly know your scriptures!

El mean god as you point out "Before Me there was no God [El] formed, And there will be none after Me"

but

Elohim is the plural of El shorten version of Eloah and means Gods

Elohim (ɛˈləʊhɪm, ˌɛləʊˈhiːm)

Old Testament a Hebrew word for God or gods

[C17: from Hebrew 'Elōhim, plural (used to indicate uniqueness) of 'Elōah God; probably related to 'El God]

World English Dictionary

So when God (El) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. He talking to his fellow gods (Elohim).

You say "God is not ‘worried’ about man becoming like Him! It was designed that man be like Him, for we were made in His image! "

Then why does god say

" Behold, the man has become LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live for ever"--------

To keep the man from living for ever he kicked him out of the garden


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Hebrew 430 (Strongs Comprehensive Concordance): el-o-heem'; plur. of 433; gosd in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: --angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

There are five occasions in the Old Testament where 'Us' is used, and each time it is referring to angels/spirits in the presence of YHWH. Even mankind is called 'elohim', in that they, too, follow the LORD God. Ps 82:6 "I said, "You are gods [elohim], And all of you are sons of the Most High." (conf. John 10:34).

Again, the LORD God did not want FALLEN man eating from the Tree of Life. Only those whose sins are forgiven and follow the LORD God will eat from it - Rev 2:7 "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'" This brings eternal life without SIN, for those who trust in Christ as the Savior of their soul.

Isa 45:21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God [Elohim] besides Me, A righteous God [Elohim] and a Savior; There is none except Me."

I would not call God a liar. He is the Truth. His Adversary LIES, and I ask that you pray about your understanding.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

P.S. Your opening line in this hub says it all, for you KNOW better: "A Witty, Divinely, Devilish take on The Original Sin!"


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Judah's Daughter

I'm not calling you or god a liar. I'm only asking you questions about what th text themselves say.

Strong's and other etymological dictionaries say that Elohim is the plural of El (shorten version of Eloah)

If you said let us make man in our image after our likeness wouldn't you be referring to those who were like you and looked like you?

When God (El) said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Who was he referring to?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Sadly, as with other scriptures, the English translation is incorrect, which has led to such false doctrines (even I once embraced) as the 'Trinity' (God in three persons, each not the other). Here's a link to the actual Hebrew and English comparison: http://biblos.com/genesis/1-26.htm

"Said God make man our image, to our likeness, rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle all the earth, every creeping creeps on the earth"

Man was created to RULE and just as there is a heavenly government, there is an earthly one (i.e. 'on earth as it is in heaven'). That is the 'Our image' interpretation in vs. 26. God making man in His own image (singular), on the other hand, is that we are spiritually made in His image (vs. 27).

I have a hub on this subject called "God: Let Us Make Man in Our Image?" that delves into these things more thoroughly. You can find it on my HubPages profile page. I hope this is, at least, helpful.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

God said let us make man in our image after our likeness

who is the us and our he's talking about?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote - the heavenly government consists of the LORD God, His angels (they have territories and assignments), magistrates and so forth. THAT is who He was speaking to in Gen 1:26. Job 38:4-7 tells us the angels were there even before the creation of the world. Man wasn't created until the sixth day of the Genesis creation account. Man was made to rule on earth, as the heavenly host rule in the heavens (1st through 3rd heavens).


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Then along came this sandal wearing hippie. He did not condemn men but rather their actions. He did not only heal those faithful to His God but to non-believers also. And he gave no new commandments of law for us to fulfill. And He gave a truthful assessment of what we are to do and believe. And it was simple: Love God with all you have, and Love your neighbor as yourself. Now to me, quoting of the scripture is more often myopic than enlightening. Taking scripture a sentence at a time, and throwing it at a non-believer does not a believer make. What convinces those without faith is our Love. Here we have learned much about words but little about Love.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

This is a Theological Discussion hub, not an evangelization hub, Ericdierker. If someone is going to teach the Word of God (the Bible), s/he is accountable to those who study, for the sake of the Truth. Now, for the sake of evangelism, Jesus didn't come to judge the world, because the world is already judged (John 3:18). Did you know that? He came to to save the world - if you love Him, you will love others, and that includes protecting the teaching of His Word, because unbelievers that do not read/study the Bible know no difference (Eph 4:14). They can easily be destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6). Satan deceived Eve in the Garden and attempted to do so to Jesus. Both Satan and Jesus quoted the Word - yet, Satan is clever; he misquotes or leaves things out...but he knows it well enough to twist it. I quote the Bible because it is the Authority in these matters, so you don't simply take my word for it...I, too, am accountable and gladly so.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Judah's Daughter I respect your position. You are a font of knowledge. We worship the same God. And I think you should be greatly respected as vveasey has shown you. Perhaps I do not speak as eloquently as you and am incapable of reciting passages as you do. And perhaps I am poor of spirit because I do not use phrases from the Bible to bolster the truth I speak. Perhaps I am free from the laws you quote, through shear ignorance. Perhaps I am so unrepentent that guilt does not dictate the flavor of my words.

I am not guided by lofty ivory towers of debate and "theology". I am only guided by my Savior. And that guidance is Love. While you have much to boast about, I do not.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

I have nothing in myself to boast of, as I am a sinner saved by LOVE. I will never forget that day that God's love trumped my shame. So, I DO know what you speak of. I praise God you are His son, so I am your sister and we are bound together by His love. We are all called to various things, each not exactly the same as the other, but together we are one and bring glory to His name and purpose. God bless you.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

J.D

I understand exactly what you're saying , you being a confessed believer and I a confessed truther, we just have a different view of the "truth" of the texts meaning.

While this is a theological discussion to you...to me it's discussion about the truth because..."Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

You say "in Gen 1:26. Job 38:4-7 tells us the angels were there even before the creation of the world."

Job was written much later than genesis. Genesis mean the beginning and talks about the creation of everything including heaven and earth but not the creation of angels etc.

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon "

So if the angels etc, were there from the beginning before god created heaven and earth... it doesn't say god created them so who created them and when?

You say that when God said "let us make man in our image after our likeness" he talking to angels etc. who have his same image and likeness..I think that makes them gods don't you?

I'd appreciate you answering each question I pose separately, thanks.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

the·ol·o·gy/THēˈäləjē/Noun: 1.The study of the nature of God and religious belief.

2.Religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed: "Christian theology".

Theology can also be seen as 'apologetics' Noun: Reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine.

I've read that Job is the oldest book in the Bible, even older than Genesis. Gen 1:1 tells us "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Does Gen 1:2 tell you the earth was there and without form? Where, in the six-day account (beginning with Day 1), do you see the earth being made?

Job tells us the angels were there when the earth was made, so we either accept it or reject it. How do we know the angels were created? Col 1:16 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him." For context/cross-ref see Eph 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

Angels are part of 'elohim', just as we who believe are. You can say they and we are 'gods', but not in the sense that we are to be worshipped as God. Even the angel in Rev 22:9 forbade John to worship him: "But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

J.D.

You say "the·ol·o·gy/THēˈäləjē/Noun: 1.The study of the nature of God and religious belief.

2.Religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed: "Christian theology"."

That is an accurate discription of your approach but not mine.

You're a believer and I'm a truther.

Generally speaking, and this may not apply to you, believers start with something they believe like. The bible is true. God inspired people to write the bible.

When askd how they know if what's written in bible is true. They say because it says so in the bible.

That's called arguing in a circle. They start with a premise assumed to be true and then go back to that premise to support what they already believe is true.

They don't question their beliefs to see if their true. They just go back to the source of their beliefs to prove what they already believe is true.

Truthers examine their beliefs to see if they're true and if they find that they're not, they update their beliefs because......"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32

This would seem to suggest that it's truth not belief that sets you free, even from beliefs

Because once you see the truth.. belief vanishes like darkness before the rising sun.

So unfortunately I don't think we're gonna come to an agreement because you're a believer and I'm a truther, and that's ok

Because you have your path to tread and I have mine.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

I like the notion of Truthers. I do not like the idea of believers citing their belief as proof of truth. However it may go to far to say truth destroys belief, I think we can have both. I believe that I do ;-)


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

vveasey, you said, "Truthers examine their beliefs to see if they're true and if they find that they're not, they update their beliefs..." - did you slightly overlook what I stated a few comments above? "Sadly, as with other scriptures, the English translation is incorrect, which has led to such false doctrines (even I once embraced) as the 'Trinity' (God in three persons, each not the other)." Were my 'beliefs' not 'updated'? I don't just rely on the Bible; I rely on the Holy Spirit. If the Bible does not appear to align with what the Holy Spirit teaches me, I dig deeper to find out if the Bible was altered in some way - indeed, scriptures such as Mat 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 were admittedly altered by the RCC. So, you are either a Truther or a Believer? Who says? You? Ericdierker and I agree that FAITH involves both - you must believe in Christ, who is the Truth and His Truth sets us free and keeps us from bondage. Man's 'truth' will defile God's Truth. Because you have 'explained' God's Word in a way that contradicts His Word (test the scriptures by the scriptures), I cannot say you 'believe' the Truth about the serpent or God's reasoning for not allowing Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, let alone the notion there are other gods (as though equal with The God). In a way, vveasey, if you think you know the Truth, you must believe it to be so. Likewise, if your "truth" is a Lie, and you believe it, you then believe a Lie. What do you think deception is?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

vveasey - tell me, what is your 'truth' about Lucifer and Satan? What is your 'truth' about Christmas? Let's discuss Truth, if you wish. Do you hold your 'truth' above the Bible? The Bible, when studied (rightly divided) does not contradict itself. It was given to us for a reason, and Jesus quoted it for a reason. Satan quoted it for his own reasons...(Mat 4); if it were moot, and all we did was 'listen to thoughts/voices', how do you 'test'? Or do you? Do you just go with what you decide is 'truth'? What is going to judge you on the last day? "The Word I spoke will judge him on the last day", saith the LORD (John 12:48).

Most of my hubs deal with the 'doctrines of men'/'doctrines of demons' and expose the lies I was taught and have abandoned. I deal with those who claim to know the 'truth' and their 'truths' are all over the map. Can they prove those 'truths' by the Bible? No. Because when tested by the Bible, they don't hold up. Truth can be challenged by all sides and will not fail. Many cannot prove what they 'believe' by the Bible at all; yet they will not abandon their 'truth'. That's a dangerous walk, if you ask me.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

Of course I agree, truth and belief can exist together and can have the same importance as long as you don't know the truth.

Belief is created by the mind. Truth is not something created by the mind it's something one's experiences.

The difference is, to know the difference between what one believes to be true and what one knows to be true and not to confuse one with the other and that's the truth.

Where is the need for belief that's created by the mind based other beliefs, when you know that's the truth?

J.D.

You say "In a way, vveasey, if you (think )you know the Truth, you must believe it" J.D. is believing the truth different than believing a belief or a lie?

If I (think) I know the truth, that means there is doubt about whether I know the truth, so that makes it a belief.

But if I'm aware that I (think) I know the truth, which is not the same as knowing the truth, I know the truth about that situation.

Knowing the difference between what one believes and what one knows to be the truth...is the truth.

You say " Because you have 'explained' God's Word in a way that contradicts His Word (test the scriptures by the scriptures)"

As I see it the scriptures that I quote contradict themselves.

As I said we're not going to come to an agreement so we may

as well accept that and you tread your path I'll tread mine.

No harm done


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

When I said "Because once you see the truth.. belief vanishes like darkness before the rising sun."

What I meant is, that sometimes belief (like darkness) can obscure our perception of what's true. Once we see the truth it either confirms what we believed to be true is true or deactivates it (like darkness vanishing before the rising sun).

If you see that what you firmly believe is not true..can you continue to believe it?


Robert Hagedorn 4 years ago

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? No apples here. Google First Scandal. When you get there, go to the top of the page and click on "Can you explain..." Please note: this website you reach will be deleted on November 1, 2012.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Well, Robert, I had HOPED to really get something out of that "First Scandal", so here I quote:

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

**The existence of a body is implied by the phrase "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." But the phrase is a figure of speech here. There is no mention of Adam having a body at this time. Adam is very clearly described only as being "a living soul."**

8. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

**The living soul is placed into a body.**

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why is it the man formed in the opening part of Gen 2:7 does not mean the man formed in vs. 8? The blog states Adam didn't have a body in vs.7, but he did have one in vs. 8. I FAIL to SEE the LOGIC...

What is the Truth? God formed man from the dust of the groud (a body without a soul) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so he becamse a living soul. Then, God placed the man he had formed (body and now with a soul) into the Garden. There you have it.

Do I want to trust this site to tell me what the 'fruit' they ate is or represents? It's already lost me.


funnychap profile image

funnychap 4 years ago from Mumbai

So when God (El) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. He talking to his fellow gods (Elohim). - I don't think that this is the right interpretation. For e.g. in the hindi language, when Kings or persons of noble birth would refer to themselves, it was always done in the "we" or "our" person. I guess it is only a matter of language.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

funnychap

thanks for commenting

You say "it was always done in the "we" or "our" person. I guess it is only a matter of language"

It can also be a matter of belief when it comes to who El was speaking to when he said we and our.

Your belief seems to be because in hindi the kings and nobles refer to themselves as we or our that applies to El.

Did they ever say let us create man in our image after our likeness?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Good point, vveasey - There is only One Creator of all things and His Name is YHWH.

If we were to accept the mistranslation of Gen 1:26, "God said, 'Let Us make man in our image'", it would then indicate the angels had a part in making man. Job, the oldest book in the Bible states in 33:4, "The Spirit of God [El] has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." The correct Greek translation of Gen 1:26 is "Said God make man in our image", or if we were to put it in an understandable sentence, "God said, 'I will make man in our image, in our likeness, and they will rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Again, like the heavenly governance of angels and magistrates (judges), He created an earthly governance, in their image.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Hey funnychap, that is a really interesting observation.

After this discussion I will view "original" sin in a new light. Right now the one thing I am sure it does not refer to is a child being born in sin. And we have to be careful taking scripture too literally.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Ericdierker, so you preach to young adults every Sunday, right? Not only did you not challenge the teaching in this hub, you now say a child is not born in sin? James 3:1 "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

Rom 5:12 tells us sin and death entered the world because sin and death entered the world through Adam: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to ALL men, because all sinned—"

Rom 3:10 "There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE:"

Rom 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Isa 64:6 "For ALL of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And ALL of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the TRUTH is not in us."

The Truth of the matter is, everyone's names start out in the Book of Life and only those who reject their Savior have their names blotted out (Ex 32:33; Deut 29:20; Ps 9:5; Ps 69:28; Rev 3:5) . Those in the Old Testament who had faith were saved (Heb 11), just as we in the New (Eph 2:8).

"Love" teaches the Truth, not private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20). I would exhort you with 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth."


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Alright I will bite -- show me a definative scripture that tells us clearly that a baby born into this world has already sinned.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

I have shown you the scriptures. A baby is covered by the blood of the Lamb until such time as s/he nullifies that grace (Gal 2:21) by rejecting their Savior (John 12:48). The Lamb to be slain was predestined since the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8; Heb 9:26) and Jesus said in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin [because He is the Savior of ALL men - 1 Tim 4:10], but now they have no excuse for their sin." (cross-ref Rom 1:20)


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

So the child is not born in sin but rather covered in the Love of Christ until such time and if they reject Christ. Cool, we are in agreement.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

The child's sin is covered. They ARE born in sin, for they (as we) are born of the first Adam. Otherwise, the scriptures would declare that all mankind is born without sin. That's contradictory to the scriptures. For this reason, Jesus did NOT have an earthly father (Adam), but the Holy Spirit (His Father). We must be born of the flesh (sin) and born again of the Spirit (sins forgiven) to enter the kingdom of God. (John 3). Each one will be drawn to the knowledge of sin and the Savior (John 12:32). Until they die (Heb 9:27), or until God hands them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1), they will either consummate/confirm they are a child of God or reject their inheritance by loving their sin and rejecting their Savior.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

When I said "Did they ever say let us create man in our image after our likeness?" I'm not saying El is the only god.

El is the only god of those who believe that El is the only god.

Yahweh is the only god for those who believe that Yahweh is the only god.

Allah is only god of those who believe Allah is the only god and so on and so on.

That why there is a long history of religious fighting, wars, violence, religious intolerance and bickering by those who are obsorbed in these, my god is the only god beliefs.

Many cultures believe that their gods are the only gods.

The oldest known cultures and religions include goddesses in their ideas of divinity. And rightly so.

The mother was always the most important person in life of child and families, because the baby was conceived in the mother, feeds and grows in the mother's womb and even after it's born, it feeds off the mother.

So the mother Goddess was always symbolically seen as the source of creation...even in the idea of mother earth that we all depend on like infants feeding at their mother's breast.

But with the start of the patriarchial (male dominated) religions the mother goddess was made to be of no importance and a second class citizen of divinity (power), just as women are today.

There is research and common sense wisdom to back this up


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Question 1

Does any one, besides me, reading this question anything you read in the bible or do you just swallow it whole hog?

Question 2

Does anyone, reading this, besides me, actually study the history of the bible, not the history in the bible, but how the bible came about, when it was written, who wrote it and why?

Question 3

Doses anyone reading this, besides me, know what the original bible was or that the new testament wasn't originally part of the original bible or what bible jesus used?

I look forward to your answers.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

We church going Christians are just a bit not allowed to venture outside doctrines of our "religion". The history and legends and lessons of the old testament are a bit lost on me. Oh I study it and learn from it and give praise and thanks for it. But all that is background chatter compared with the new testament. Jesus only referred to the old testament and old laws when dealing with pharisees who were consumed therewith. There is no doubt that the old testament is the old law and that I am not bound by it. I do not attack nations, I do not make animal sacrifices, I do not have multiple wives, and I do not ask for manna from heaven. I have marching orders, and I do my best to keep them. Love. It is not for me to see or revel in original sin or sins of children from their parents. Mine is to love the child and not be focused on sin. Oringinal sin belongs to the Old and Love belongs to the new.


funnychap 4 years ago

i agree with you Ericdierker. When the child is born, it is covered in the love of Christ & protected from all evil. it is only when the child grows up & consciously goes away from Christ (remember Adam & Eve were adults & consciously disobeyed God) that sin enters & then it becomes very difficult for the child to come back into grace. But since God is ever merciful, he accepts those who come to him with a sincere heart.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

So does that mean your answer 2 each question I asked is no?


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

funnychap

Here goes the truther again!

If what you say is true explain why many babies are born with birth defects and many babies and children are abused before they grow up?


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

vveasey, I would like to contribute to answering your questions to funnychap above. I don't think he literally meant "children are protected from all evil" in the sense of evil on earth. I believe he meant the judgment for sin, should anything happen to them.

Why are children abused? Same reason the two-year-old boys (and younger) were slaughtered when Herod felt his throne was threatened by the birth of the King (someone's self-centeredness). Children harmed are the collateral damage of someone else's SIN. Satan's sons and daughters do the will of their 'father', the devil, who is a murderer - and the attack starts in the womb (abortion). He seeks to kill, steal and destroy God's creation. But by the grace of God children survive, and if they die - they are the righteous spared of evil, and are in the arms of Jesus, for they are covered by His grace.

Isa 57:1 "The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil."

Regarding disabilities and 'defects', I cover this in my hub "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil?" (there's a section called 'Defective Creation'?)

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/God-Create...


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

vveasy,

1. whole hog means without discrimination -- so no

2. I love the study of events and the writing of the bible - so yes

3. You got me on Jesus' bible, did not know he had a book - as to what he quoted from previous scripture clearly it had to be old Testament. Generally at that time scripture was kept in the synagogues. Remember Christ was not a Christian but a Jew.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Judah's Daughter

funnychap said " When the child is born, it is covered in the love of Christ & protected from all evil. it is only when the child grows up & consciously goes away from Christ (remember Adam & Eve were adults & consciously disobeyed God) that sin enters & then it becomes very difficult for the child to come back into grace."

Isn't that a little different than what you're saying?


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

Ok on question 1

Question 2 I don't mean the history in the bible. I'm talking about the historical research that's been done on when the books of bible were written, who wrote them and for what purpose.

Question 3

The bible Jesus quotes from according historical researchers, is the 2nd or 3rd century BCE Greek translation of Hebrew bible called the Septuagint, that's was translated into Greek for the descents of Jews living Alexandria, Eygpt who couldn't read or speak Hebrew.

This is Bible that Christians used before Catholic Christianity became the dominant form of Christianity at the First Council Of Nicea in the 4th century AD.

The first Christian Bible was created in the 4th century AD by the Roman Catholic clergy, mainly Jerome (St Jerome) who was commissioned to redact (edit or rewrite) the Septuagint and Christian writings to create a holy book for the Latin speaking Roman church. It was called the Latin Vulgate. Look up the Latin Vulgate and you'll see that this was the first Christian Bible. also look up the Septuagint.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

.3 VVeasy you speak of a bible like it is a common place concept 2k years ago. The bibles of the time were what the "readers" said they were. And it took one man to transcribe the "book" and take it to another location. Or even harder, to translate and transcribe and take it somewhere else. People in general were not literate. An old testament like mine would require a mule to transport it, in scrolls. My study of the times regards more anthropology. At the time of Jesus only the very rich and powerful were given access to the Word as written. And those people used that power to hold the people down. Jesus was there to free the people so his references to scripture were mainly to debate the authorities.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Eric

you're right the rich and powerful were the priests, religious rulers and Kings. Most of the common folk couldn't read or write. They had to get what they learned about what was in the many holy books of every culture from those who could read and write, the priests.

This was ocurring among nations way before Jesus' time.

Bible literally means book.

Holy bible means holy book.

I don't recall if when Jerome translated and redacted those writings in 4th century AD if he was writing on scrolls or not.

So bible originally just meant book. When many people or the religious leaders revered a book they called it a holy book or bible.

So yes among the intelligensia "bibles" (books) were common, the writings of various philosophers etc.

"The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία ta biblia "the books") is any one of the collections of the primary religious texts of Judaism and Christianity. There is no common version of the Bible, as the contents and the order of the individual books (Biblical canon) vary among denominations. The 24 texts of the Hebrew Bible are divided into 39 books in Christian Old Testaments, and complete Christian Bibles range from the 66 books of the Protestant canon to the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Bible. Much of the Bible is written in narrative form where "in the biblical story God is the protagonist, Satan (or evil people/powers) are the antagonists, and God’s people are the agonists".[1][2]" (wikipedia)


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Right on. I think we look to Gutenberg as the first printed with movable type bible. Although it would seem at most only a couple hundred were produced as of mid 1500's http://www.themorgan.org/collections/works/gutenbe...

So I think it fair to say that we were well into the 1700's before the common man could own and hold his own bible, probably that is early do to cost and literacy. I gather it would be your stance that this would make the Holy Bible that we have today less authentic. I would say that this type of provenance makes it more reliable.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

I always say, it doesn't take a Bible to know God, for He writes His Word on our hearts. Adam and Eve didn't have a Bible...

Since the Roman Catholic Church admittedly altered the Textus Receptus to fit its doctrine of the 'Trinity", who knows how many alterations were made? If the Bible was all we needed, God would not have given us His Holy Spirit, who guides us into all Truth.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

JD were are in perfect agreement there. The Holy Bible is our guidebook to the destination of which you speak. It is not the destination and it is different for all who read it. And again we can disagree as to matters like original sin, for we are all Gods' children and can have our own views. But the bottom line is always being filled with the Holy Spirit.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 4 years ago from Roseville, CA

Amen. I say, if God's sheep are deceived by those who add to and take away from the Bible, claiming it to be God's holy Word, it is THEY that are severely judged in the end. I just watched a documentary, in that there's a goal for an 'International Bible' to be published that will completely remove the Book of Revelation! Rev 22:19 "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Eric

You say "I gather it would be your stance that this would make the Holy Bible that we have today less authentic. I would say that this type of provenance makes it more reliable."

How can that make it more reliable if it's been tampered with?


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

VVeasy,

If you are looking for an instruction manual that helps you decide which shoes to buy or what foods to eat. The Bible is not your source. If you are looking for a location of a thing, like a treasure map, the Bible is not your source. In the Old Testament if you are looking for a good primer in history and the depravity and yet hope of man, it is a good source. In the new Testament if you are looking for good accounts of the best teacher that ever lived, it is your source.

But if you are looking for a source of truth, without faith, the Bible might as well be written in Martian for you. As to original sin the Bible is wonderful as it leaves room for interpretation. One dogma does not overrule another. As for me an mine, I do not care so much, because by the time I am able to understand it I have already sinned plenty. And yes all of me and mine are Baptized.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Wow Eric

It was just a simple question..Ok thanks that's great

But I still don't know if understand or you answered how "this type of provenance makes it more reliable".

Just trying to get a clear understanding of what you mean by that.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Sorry but that takes a long answer. What is HP protocal? should I just write a hub and cross reference?


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

You got me! I don't know what HP protocol is


Paul K Francis profile image

Paul K Francis 4 years ago from east coast,USA

It may all be about a rite of passage, a part of God's intention. A parent's admonishment of a disobeying child is not always in anger but also as concern and teaching. We ate of the fruit and we did not die, we lived to see another day including the day of Christ's ressurection.

I very much enjoyed reading your hub. Thank You.

In my mind, and I apoligize for the blasphemy, God being the higher power that they are is incapable of anger and so there was no punishment, just teaching and so let us not be angry on these pages. And God did not have a change of heart towards his servant or should I say serpent: and it came to pass - after we got the boot - that God rested in his garden and said to the serpent, "Nice job." And the serpent replied, "Thanks boss."

God bless y'all.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Thanks!

Paul K Francis for weighing in with your view of the topic.

Our views harmonize in many respects

You sound like you're similar to me...an opened-minded, kind, good-hearted soul.

Thanks again!


funnychap profile image

funnychap 4 years ago from Mumbai

hi friends, loved this hub & it also inspired me to add my 2 bits to it. I have written a hub on "are we cleansed of the original sin". pls have a look & leave your comments.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

VVeasy I think you did a great job on this hub and the discussion. I also was inspired to write a hub about the issue: How to gain truth from a document 3: Ancient writings, what are they good for? Specifically the Bible and Original sin.

Thanks again VVeasy


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Thanks Eric

and funnychap

I appreciate it!

I'm glad my sincere, opened-minded, honest searching for the spiritual truth of the Original Sin inspired yall to dive deeper into the subject.

The spirit of truth inspires a deeper searching for the truth.

Let me know when your hub is up and I'll check it out


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

If you guys got a kick out of this hub

I wonder what you'll make of this one

What Is The Kingdom Of Heaven like

http://hubpages.com/politics/What-Is-The-Kingdom-O...

Leave any comments on that hub


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

VVeasy,

Here are the hubs dealing with the idea of truth from a document. I dare say the one on foreclosures helps your point more than mine ;-)

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-to-gai...

http://hubpages.com/money/How-to-gain-truth-from-a...

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/How-to-gai...


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Not to mention your inaccuracies..the real deal is God is never angry at His children, saddened, weeping yes, God always knows the outcome..you will never see God hitting His forehead with the palm of His hand saying Oh my I never suspected you would do that..God asks man questions for man to answer and realize not because He does not know..finally the story in the Bible is true as is every word in the Bible. thanks for stimulating thought


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

FSlovenec

Thanks for your comments

if you believe every word in the Bible is literally true, you're the one who's dealing in inaccuracies.

But I'm glad you found this hub stimulating because that's one of its purposes.

Show me the inaccuracies in my hub as related to the biblical text I quote


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

FSlovenec

You say "you will never see God hitting His forehead with the palm of His hand saying Oh my I never suspected you would do that"

When is the last time you've seen God doing anything, much less hitting his forehead with his palm?


Trish_M profile image

Trish_M 4 years ago from The English Midlands

Hi :)

Very interesting! I really enjoyed it. Genesis is all about symbolism and you explain it very well.

Like cheaptrick, and as you indicate, I think that it is about the evolution of awareness.

Whoever wrote it must have been very clever and ~ very knowledgeable for those times.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Thanks Trish M

I appreciate your comments

and thanks for the fan mail!

Glad to met cha!


FSlovenec profile image

FSlovenec 4 years ago from San Francisco, CA

Christianity is God seeking man, what you describe here is all other religions with man seeking God.

God so loved the World that He gave His only son, whoever believes in Him will be saved, Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world but to save it.

The Bible is true cover to cover and it is a love story cover to cover.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

FSlovenec

I respect your belief and theology but it has nothing to do

with this hub and only has to do with what you believe.

This hub is not about "man seeking God' or religion.

The old testament (originally the Hebrew bible) was written hundreds of years before Christianity existed and was part of the Hebrew or Jewish religion, Judaism. So it's not about Christianity.

It's about the psychology of the human mind and how to interpret what the humans who wrote this story conveyed in their symbolic writings.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

ElSeductor

Hahahaha that's funny

You're basically in agreement with my hub


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

If i were to create a pet or a toy, i would soon grow tired if they just did as i commanded. No, Variety is the spice of life. Why would you suggest to deny a deity such appropriate pleasure?


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

you're not the deity you're a creation of your deity

so the comparison to what you would do doesn't compare.

The deity is supposed to be independent of all things since it created all things and therefore doesn't need anything


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

I don't follow -- seems to me my Deity is totally interdependant with me. My wife created our son, and she needs his love. Love is a common bond and it follows God is pure love and if love is in me God is in me and vice versa. (I am using metaphors here and I know I am not a deity) Except maybe to my young son.


vveasey profile image

vveasey 4 years ago from Detroit,MI Author

Ericdierker

Then don't use metaphors

I think they can be obscuring the issue

speak plainly

You don't follow because you seem to already

have presumptions about God, love, your deity etc

How is your deity interdependent with You

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working