Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 1

Kev said (Quoted Exactly)

Rich Man & Lazarus is a parable. The reason the church insists that it is not is because this story is the only supporting argument for immediate punishment after death without prior judgement, and it also supports the notion of immediate entry to Heaven without the required resurection that Paul taught us about. Thereby rendering resurection redudant.

From the Oxford English dictionary:

parable:

• noun a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson.

— ORIGIN Latin parabola ‘comparison, discourse, allegory’, from Greek parabole (see PARABOLA).

Something that is a parable therefore is not required to be of itself a true story, but it conveys a principle, or a spititual truth.

Twelve reasons why Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable:

1) Jesus only addressed the crowds in parables. Jesus was addressing the crowds here, ergo, this is a parable. For it to be a true account and NOT a parable, we call Jesus a liar.

Matthew 13:10, 13-14, 34-35 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"……This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving…… Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

2) This parable is parable number 5 of a 5 part parable set conveyed on the same occasion to the same crowd

1. Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep……Lost Sheep

2. Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins…...Lost Coins

3. There was a man…….Prodigal Son

4. There was a rich man…….Shrewd Manager

5. There was a rich man…….Rich Man and Lazarus

3) If this is a true acount, then it contradicts the following:

- Psalm 6:5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?

- Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

- Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;

- Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

4) You did not comment on the Jewish view of Sheol/Hades, so here it is again:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=6

Some key points to pull out of this definition:

'Sheol is spoken of as a land; but ordinarily it is a place with gates. Here the dead meet without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling. Silence reigns supreme; and oblivion is the lot of them that enter therein. Hence it is known also as "Dumah," the abode of silence; and there God is not praised.'

5) Of 76 scriptures mentioning grave/sheol/hades, only one, this parable, mentions any kind of post death punishment. To take this parable as a true account and convieninetly ignore all othe 75 accounts is not good study.

6) How can the rich man lift up his eyes and see Abraham? He is dead; his eyes are decomposing in his grave? New body in Hell? So he has two bodies now does he? How does he see Abraham if his new eyes are boiling internally from the heat of the flames? New spiritual body now? How can real material flames burn a spiritual body? Spiritual flames too? How can SPIRITUAL flames inflict a MATERIAL PHYSICAL pain on a SPIRITUAL body? It defies logic.

7) For something to burn it requires sufficient heat energy to break down the bonds between molecules, releasing oxygen which in combination with available fuel, combusts producing an incandescent flame of exhaust gases emitting heat and light. If things that are spiritual are not made of material things, then fire is impossible in the spiritual realm. As heat energy is produced by dint of molecules vibrating in an increased excitation state, then are the concepts of heat, energy and temperature present in the spiritual realm? Perhaps Stephen Hawkings would be interested in a new branch of spiritual quantum theory. Think this is silly? Not as silly as believing this parable is a real story. When God talks of fire, it is usually spiritual fire because He is spirit. As spiritual fire is an impossibility by the definition of fire, then spiritual fire must represent something else and cannot be real

fire somehow operating in a spiritual way.

8) For someone to burn for eternity, then those parts of their bodies being consumed and converted to energy, must be continually replaced by some creative process. So God must be actively recreating people as they burn.

9) How did the rich man expect Lazarus to administer this drop of water anyway? Wouldn’t Lazarus’s hand go all brown and crispy too? Wouldn’t the drop of water vaporise in the heat before it reached the rich man’s tongue? Ah but it would have been spiritual water; not affected by the flames. How could spiritual water not affected by the flames possibly have a cooling effect on a tongue that was heated by the flames?

10) Abraham then says that the gulf between them prevents anyone who wants to pass from his bosom to the rich man from doing so. Why in the world would anyone who being in paradise want to go to sit with the rich man and thus go up in flames themselves?

11) In the Greek two different words are used for pass. From Abraham to the rich man the word is diabaino, but from the rich man to Abraham the word is diaperao in the sense of sailing or ferrying over. So why didn’t the rich man just jump in the water then?

12) There’s nothing here deserving Hell. Ah but he rejected Jesus as his saviour? The parable doesn’t say that. If this story is literal, then to suggest something that is not literally in the story is to literally destroy the literal story argument. Besides which Jesus has not yet paid the sacrifice, so how can this man be condemned for rejecting something that hasn’t happened yet?

The point is all go to the silent grave as the old testament testifies throughout. Judgement does not occur till the GWF and that happens after resurection. If we say Christians go immediately to Heaven, then Pauls discourses on the hope of resurection are redundant.

My Answer to Kev

First of all, all parables in the Bible are prefaced as such. The word “parable” is used 58 times in the Bible, yet not in the account of the rich man and Lazarus.

If you read all of Luke 16, Jesus explained the first four parables and how they relate to repentance and salvation. The Jews were furious with the parable about the shrewd master, for they loved money. Jesus then says a couple of things about the Law, then goes on to tell them about the rich man and Lazarus (to warn them about the love of money). In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was in SHEOL (Jesus didn't speak Greek, but Hebrew). If Sheol was just the grave, He wouldn't have indicated consciousness, unless it were TRUE. He mentioned Abraham (a real person), and Moses and the prophets (real people), so what makes you think that Lazarus wasn’t a real person or that this account isn’t truthful?

While you think a place of torment (hell) is not mentioned in the Old Testament, you are incorrect. Jesus' ministry was to the JEWS and He spoke about Hell, more than anyone else. Numbers 16:30 (Old Testament) also confirms that Sheol is not just the grave: "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD." Surely, this literally happened to them in the same passage and one could simply think they all died and that was the end of it. However, look at Mat 10:28 below, which confirms the killing of the body does not kill the soul.

Sheol/Hades is not a future tense, as the Lake of Fire is Geenna. There is no water in Sheol/Hades, nor in the chasm [chasma: a wide space] separating it from Paradise. It's not a gulf of water. That is unscriptural. You asked how the rich man could be condemned even though Christ hadn't died for him yet? Why was Lazarus NOT condemned? God knows who are His. Moses and Elijah, as well as all who believed and loved God were saved by faith in Him (evidenced by obedience and the heart), having not received the "promise", which is the Lamb of God's sacrifice (Reference Hebrews 11).

All the passages you quoted about no life after death are Old Testament Scriptures, which you admit. However, not only does Numbers 16:30 tell us about hell, people knew that the angels who sinned were cast into hell (which is the Greek word Tartaroo - the deepest abyss of Sheol/Hades), but that’s in the Book of Enoch (confirmed in 2 Peter 2:4), which was in the Bible for 500 years and removed, just like the Book of Jasher, which is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18. In the New Testament, Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (which, of course, you may simply call a “vision”), but Christians disagree. Why did the disciples tell Jesus people thought He was John the Baptist, Elijah or one of the prophets (who had already died – John 8:28)? Wow, they must have “believed” in reincarnation?

If you want to insist this account of the rich man and Lazarus was a “parable”, understand that these parables were to describe the kingdom of God:

Mark 4:30 “And He said, ‘How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?’”

Are any of His parables untrue? It is not I who call Jesus a liar; it is you.

Let's look at a few New Testament scriptures about Hades:

Matthew 11:23/Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades [aka Sheol]; for if the miracles [God performed as signs] had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day." Do you see heaven and hell in this verse? Since Hades is not mentioned anywhere in the New Heaven and New Earth, it doesn't exist then. Since all go to the grave, this isn't speaking about the grave, for some people will be exalted to heaven and not descend to Hades. This heaven is Paradise, not the New Heaven because it also does not yet exist.

Matthew 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." Sheol and Hades are the same. It is known as the "bottomless pit", which has gates (Rev 9:1-2). It is not the Lake of Fire (Geenna).

Luke 16:23 (rich man and Lazarus) "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom."

Acts 2:27 "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One [Jesus] see corruption." Acts 2:21 confirms "he [David] foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He [His soul] was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption." This points to the fact that the soul and body are separate.

Revelation 1:18 "I [Jesus] was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." Nowhere is there a key to Geenna, the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 6:8 "I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth." Hmmmm. How can Hades follow him and be given authority to kill a fourth of the earth?

Revelation 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." Well, if dead bodies are in the grave, how can death AND Hades give up the dead and be thrown into the Lake of Fire? I'll tell you ~ the body is dead (death); the souls that have rejected Christ are in Hades (hell).

The soul and body separate at physical death. They are separate. If they were the same, even the following scripture would not make sense:

Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Hades] and body [death] in hell [Geenna, the Lake of Fire].

You quoted Ecclesiastes 3:19, but look at 3:21 and 12:7: “Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?” And “then the dust [body] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” Reference Mat 11:23/Luke 10:15 already quoted. Surely, we can only accomplish the will of God while we’re alive. Once our body dies, our spirit ascends to the presence of the Lord while our bodies corrupt in the grave. We can do nothing more.

Regarding the resurrection, the Bible tells us that Jesus went to make proclamation to the spirits in hell (Tartaroo, the deepest abyss of Hades) before He ascended (Eph 4:9; 1 Pet 3:19; 2 Pet 2:4). Likewise, He was the firstborn from the dead, in that His body was physically resurrected, while our physical bodies won’t be until the appointed time (on either side of the millennial reign, one for believers and one for unbelievers – Rev 20:5-6).

Paul made the statement in 2 Cor 5:8, “we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” Consider that if we never leave our bodies, we would NEVER be absent from them.

Regarding literal or physical fire, that is for God to know. Brimstone is only present in the earth. It is INFLAMABLE sulpher. So, obviously God already created something that is inflamable, not able to be destroyed by physical fire. You are welcome to read my hub Where or What is HELL? We do know our bodies will be raised incorruptible, so they cannot be destroyed (1 Cor 15:52).

For the remainder of Kev's comments and my response, please see Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 2

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Comments 17 comments

no body profile image

no body 6 years ago from Rochester, New York

I hope Kev can see this. I look at what you have written and see a crystal clear picture that is very different from the process he took to reach his conclusion. I also see a lot of thought process that links the steps he takes to our human finite experience, to the physical laws that we live under, to what makes sense if all the premise of "right now" still applies. When dealing with Scripture I know that trap very well. The accurate analysis of burning, but that only applies to here on earth, in this set of physical laws that we live under here. God's ways and thoughts are above our ways and thoughts. For argument's sake it would be convenient for all our familiar rules to apply but we're dealing with things beyond our frame of reference. Jesus lovingly gives us a glimse of these other frames of reference so we know that we can trust He knows what He's doing. We are not to know everything nor understand everything, just have faith that the Word is true follow each statement as written. I love you Always.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Praise God, brother no body. I appreciate the truth in your comment. Be blesed!


oscarwms profile image

oscarwms 6 years ago from PA

Good stuff. Kev eyes will only open at the appointed time of the Lord. Jesus said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." (John 15:16)Pry much for Keven.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

oscarwms, this passage in John 15:16 is Jesus speaking to the twelve disciples, not humanity (cross-reference John 6:70). Jesus said He will draw ALL men unto Himself when He is lifted up from the earth (John 12:32). He is the Savior of the whole world and made propitiation for all sin ~ however, it is up to each person to choose life or death (Deut 30:19; Joshua 24:15). We must be born again (John 3:7), as you know. By grace we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8) and faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17) ~ thus, the Great Commission! (Mark 16:15; Mat 24:14)

The accountability of the hearer is shown in many verses, but I will quote just two:

John 12:47-48 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." AMEN. Be blessed.


thewayman 6 years ago

Carrie: Why do you call geenna the lake of fire?


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

thewayman, we must look at the scripture to see when it uses hell (geenna) along with fire, even the unquenchable fire:

Mat 5:22 “But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

Mark 9:43 “…go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.”

Mark 9:47-48 “…to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”

Other uses of Geenna occur in the following scriptures:

Mt 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:45; Lu 12:5; and Jas 3:6. When you look up any of these scriptures, it's important also to note the cross-references in your Bible and look those up as well.

The definition of Geenna is "(gheh’-en-nah) used as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell." The present "hell" is Sheol (Hebrew)/Hades (Greek)/Tartaroo (all are the pit, which has a "deepest abyss" called Tartaroo).


thewayman 6 years ago

That is all true but that does not tell me why Geenna is the lake of fire. And it is defined by Strongs as follows:

Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment. Its only "figuratively" used as a place of everlasting punishment. Geenna is used 12 times in the NT and each time its translated hell. The LOF is mentioned 4 times in Rev_19:20; Rev_20:10; Rev_20:14-15; Rev_21:8 and refered to in Rev 14. John surly knew what what Geenna was, Since he lived in the time that Geenna was very active I would assume that he had seen it with his own eyes. If the LOF is Geenna why would he not call it that? Is there a Biblical reason to call it the LOF? I can't honestly say that there is. I understand that as time passed that Geenna has been "figuratively" used for the LOF but I can't prove that it was understood to be the LOF back when John wrote it. Also I don't think that Geenna is linked to anything "eternal" with the exception of a fire that will not be quenched. That can be understood that it will not go out until it accomplishes its purpose seeing that there is no fire in Geenna today. Any help with this would be great. Thanks


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

thewayman, The definition of Geenna refers to the Valley of Hinnom; it was obviously a literal place and research will show its purpose: both as a place pagans sacrificed their children to Molech (abomination), and a place where Jews dumped refuse and bodies of criminals. We cannot assume that the New Heaven and New Earth, as well as our spiritual bodies will be like they are currently.

The Valley of Hinnom may be the actual location of the future Geenna, ignited in the New Earth. This current earth will pass away (Rev 20:21), but the New Earth is to be incorruptible, just like our new bodies. Some wonder if Geenna will indeed be outside the New Jerusalem (on the New Earth) because of scriptures such as Rev 22:15-16 “Outside ARE the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.” The word ‘dogs’ is not ‘pets’: cross-reference with Mat 7:6. Gentiles were called dogs (Mark 7:28) ~ meaning ‘unbelievers’.

The lake of fire is also described as “fire and brimstone”. Brimstone is not found in the heavens, only in earth. It is inflammable sulpher. Fire is translated as “lightning” also. Fire, brimstone and lightning (caused by the chemicals and ash) are all present at volcanic eruptions. Doesn’t sound like a “purification” fire to me. Nothing was "purified" in the fire of the Valley of Hinnom and brought out. Also, if God created brimstone, which is inflammable, He can create anything inflammable.

On a side note, I have a hub on Judah's Daughter called "Where or What is HELL" that goes into this in more detail. Also, on my hub comments "The Unholy Trinity", a Muslim revealed they expect the Diijal (their Antichrist, which is our Christ) to have a crystal lake on one side of Him and a lake of fire on the other. They believe the lake of fire is really heaven and they are to enter it. Amazing, isn't it?

Okay, back to topic: Some believe souls will be cast into Geenna and be annihilated. One thing’s for sure; anything cast into Geenna is not coming out. Nothing came out of the fire burning in the Valley of Hinnom either. The Bible does not indicate annihilation in every passage pertaining to it (and the Bible does not contradict itself), so because “death” or “destroyed” can be interpreted as spiritually ongoing, it appears this is the case. Here’s an example:

The coming Antichrist is going to be a man; likewise, will be the false prophet. I happen to believe they are Islam’s Al-Mahdi and Isa (their Jesus), based on research. At the beginning of the millennial reign, the beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev 19:20). Satan is bound in the bottomless pit at the same time. At the end of the millennial reign, Satan is released, is defeated and Rev 20:10 states, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." That's 1,000 years ~ this does not indicate the beast and false prophet had been annihilated.

Secondly, Rev 14:11 tells us that those who worship the beast (Antichrist) and his image and/or receive his mark are cast into the lake of fire and "their worm does not die" (I thought worms were corruptible?) - Mark 9:46 & 48 - and "they have no rest day or night" (Rev 14:11). The Apostle Paul says we will be raised incorruptible (1 Cor 15:52). This would indicate our spiritual bodies will not die, whether they are resurrected to life or resurrected to condemnation (John 5:29).

I know this is a very unpleasant subject, and I also understand what it means to "solomnly testify". Salvation has been available to all under the Old Covenant (through faith and the Law) and New Covenant (through faith in Christ) since the beginning of time. Just as there were those who rejected God in the OT, there are those today and until He comes that reject Him. Geenna is the final judgment to come for them. There is no second chance after physical death ~ there is no scripture to support such a doctrine. We can only go by what is written. Be blessed.


thebmway 6 years ago

Carrie- Thanks for such a detailed answer it was very informative about many things. But not to why you call Geenna the LOF. Except for only theory and conjecture. You state exactly "Secondly, Rev 14:11 tells us that those who worship the beast (Antichrist) and his image and/or receive his mark are cast into the lake of fire and "their worm does not die" (I thought worms were corruptible?) - Mark 9:46 & 48 - and "they have no rest day or night" (Rev 14:11). The Apostle Paul says we will be raised incorruptible (1 Cor 15:52). This would indicate our spiritual bodies will not die, whether they are resurrected to life or resurrected to condemnation (John 5:29). That is some fine scriptural puzzel work. The worm that does not die is nowhere linked to the LOF. Not even close. The worm that does not die is in Geenna. The ones not having rest and the beast is in the LOF. In Is 66:24 you have an OT refference to worms that do not die and fire not being quenched which matches the words of Christ concerning Geenna more than any words about the LOF. But we have carcases (dead bodies) for the worms and fire to dispose of. Brimstone is never said to be in Geenna, that is only in the LOF. I am not trying to be a problem but I can't Biblically say that Geenna is the LOF. They have nothing in common and can't be Biblically linked. Well,,,that I can find. Can you?


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Kev, because of the length of your comment, I've answered you in a hub: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Answer-to-...


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thebmway,

You said, “They [Geenna and the Lake of Fire] have nothing in common and can't be Biblically linked. Well,,,that I can find. Can you? I have given my proof. You need to prove that they are not the same, using scripture.

So, you’re implying that Geenna currently exists and the Lake of Fire is separate? You do know that the Lake of Fire is the final judgment, correct (Rev 19:20; 20:10-15; 21:8)? You agree that “they [resurrected bodies and souls] have no rest day or night” is in the Lake of Fire. The Valley of Hinnom, when it existed, would have killed worms as well. Worms are physical matter and are not inflammable. So, when you say, “we have carcases (dead bodies) for the worms and fire to dispose of” you are indicating the worms did not die (which were on the dead bodies), when indeed they did. In the future Geenna (the Lake of Fire), the worms will not die, nor will the incorruptible bodies that are cast into it.


thebmway 6 years ago

Hi Carrie,

I don't think that I need to prove anything. I am not making any claims. I'm not claiming that Geenna is or is not the LOF. You state that you have given your proof. I must have missed it. I re-read your post still missed "proof". I saw assumptions and conjecture but no real proof. Please break your proof down into layman’s terms for I am surly not as skilled at the word as you.

I don't need to imply that Geenna currently exists. The fact that the valley of Hinnom (OT) or Geenna (greek) exists can be proven by looking at any map. The valley is there! I agree that the people in the LOF have no rest day or night. As far as the fire killing the worms you are surly correct. Any worm that came in contact with the fire would die. But who would think that the fire consumed all flesh that was thrown into it. There surly were remains that the worms gladly took care of. I must be thick or something but I can't find "worms" anywhere in the LOF. Of the 5 places in Rev that the LOF is spoken of where do you find worms? Is there a translation that states that there are worms in the LOF? I'm not trying to challenge you just trying to understand. The fact is that John or Jesus who both saw Geenna and the LOF, knew what both were, did not use either one to describe each other. Am I wrong in stating that? If I am what did I miss? Thanks for your patience and time.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Kev, once again, I’m not going to post your false doctrine here. I will, however address your belief that the soul sleeps until the resurrection, which is in error:

You stated the definition of soul correctly: Psyche, #5590: life, soul, heart, mind, the IMMATERIAL part of the inner person.” Strongs also goes on to connect it to breath of man (H: rhuach / G: pneuma, or spirit).

Consider the following passages:

Jesus said in Mat 10:28, “Do not fear those who kill the body but are UNABLE TO KILL THE SOUL; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Geenna].” This shows that the soul survives the body.

Jesus said in John 11:26, “Everyone who lives and believes in Me WILL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?" This means the soul will not die, for we know everyone’s body dies.

Revelation 6:9-11 “When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been SLAIN because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they HAD maintained; and THEY CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on THOSE WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH? [so obviously, these souls are not on or in the earth]?’ And there was given to each of them a white robe; and THEY WERE TOLD that they should REST for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were TO BE KILLED EVEN AS THEY HAD BEEN, would be completed also.”

The Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 5:8, “We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be at HOME WITH THE LORD.” If the soul sleeps with the body until resurrection, we would NEVER be absent from it.

Let’s talk about REST. Did you ever look up Paradise? Here is the link: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3857.htm Consider the following three passages:

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Now, you can move the comma if YOU want, but all translations of the Bible have the comma right where it is. How can Jesus be both in the grave and in Paradise at the same time? Because He is God and God is Spirit (John 4:24).

In 2 Cor 12:2-4 Paul states, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.”

God says in Revelation 2:7, “'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit [God] says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'”

Truly, all bodies go to the grave (except Enoch and Elijah, as is specifically stated in Scripture) and return to dust. The dead body is said to be “sleeping” because God will indeed raise us up in incorruptible bodies at the times of the resurrections. There are TWO. Believers are resurrected first; unbelievers are resurrected second ~ a thousand years apart. Consider Ecclesiastes 12:7 (Old Testament): “The dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [rhuach] will return to God who gave it.”


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

thebmway, I can only repeat what I stated above: "The Valley of Hinnom may be the actual location of the future Geenna, ignited in the New Earth. This current earth will pass away (Rev 20:21), but the New Earth is to be incorruptible, just like our new bodies. Some wonder if Geenna will indeed be outside the New Jerusalem (on the New Earth) because of scriptures such as Rev 22:15-16 “Outside ARE the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.” The word ‘dogs’ is not ‘pets’: cross-reference with Mat 7:6. Gentiles were called dogs (Mark 7:28) ~ meaning ‘unbelievers’."

If the information I gave is not satisfactory, I suppose you'll have to ask another teacher. When or where Geenna exists is not contingent upon the gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. If you are saved, you do not have to know this; and those who are unsaved don't believe in it ~ so, it's a mute point. Be blessed.


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

ATTENTION READERS:

FURTHER UNIVERSALIST COMMENTS WILL BE DENIED AT THIS TIME, AS I SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TIME TO RESPOND. I WILL NOTIFY IN THE FUTURE, IF I WILL BE TAKING YOUR COMMENTS. MAY GOD BLESS ALL WHO READ UNTO HIS GLORY. AMEN.


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robpeach 6 years ago from The Internet

Nice articles. Well developed and nicely laid out.

I wonder if you would accept my definition of the word "Parable". To break it in half, we find Par and Able, hence, "to be of average ability".

Have a good day.


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

The Hebrew word "par" means "with" or "beside"; of course, 'parable' is English :-) Maybe it means "with ability"? lol Actually, the word 'parable' in Greek (New Testament) is 3850 parabole, which literally means "to expose oneself to danger". The short definition is "comparison". Thanks for the insight and compliment, brother robpeach. Blessings to you!

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