Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 2
Kev said (Quoted Exactly)
Here's the rest of what I wated to say before the hub limt cut me off:
Now the fall of man did not catch God out. He is not running a disaster recovery plan. He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden when He simply didn’t need to. He knew that the devil who He created as a bad adversary would at some point bring about the fall. He planned Jesus as the sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world. Everything that happened occured with God's forknowledge.
God has everything stacked in His favour to save man:
- He knows the end from the beginning.
- The devil is His tool and submitted to God's will - the devil had to get permission to attack Job and had to ask God to sift Peter like wheat.
- Man's will is subject to God's. Pharoh wanted to set Israel free on 5 occasions, but on 9 occasions God overuled and hardened his heart. Paul confirms this in Romans 9:17-18. Nebuchadnezzar is referred to throughout the Book of Jeremiah as God’s servant whom God will use to bring judgement against Judah, Egypt, and the surrounding nations. God even vows to punish any nation that refused his rule: Jeremiah 27:8 "If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the LORD, until I destroy it by his hand".
So here a pagan king has his will controlled by God's will without even being aware of it.
Then we have the following verses:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
So here we have God seeing the end from the beginning; he determines to save all men and prepares Jesus for that purpose; the devil is under His control; and so is the will of every man. Don't you think it so very odd that given all that, God cannot apparently do what He he sets out to do? Why does it not seem so strange to you that only 5%-ish of humanity makes it? Where is the soveregnty of God and His omnipotence?
Then what do you do with the following verses:
Romans 8:38-39 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation [including the Lake of Fire which is of God], will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So if God so loved the world to send us His only Son, then Romans confirms that God's love does not just switch off to the
lost, but He must still love those outside the city.
When the Twin Towers fell, there will have been people who were still alive whilst falling through the buildings. At some point in their descent, they died and continued to fall. Now imagine God watching the scene unfolding. Was He really calling out “I love you, I love you, I love you…….[Point of death]……I hate you, I hate you, I hate you…….”? Does God really hate those who are unsaved when they die? Is His love fickle?
Romans 14:11 It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
String these together into a logical statement you have all men will confess Jesus as Lord and be saved.
Whilst I think the case for universal salvation is unproven , the orthodox view of God's master plan has so many holes in it and leaves out very many scriptures that the church chooses to ignore because of their inconvienince to that established orthodoxy.
My Answer to Kev
Job and Peter were children of God. Satan asks permission from God before He can inflict the children of God. You do understand that since the fall, all became the children of the devil? The Bible is clear that Job was considered a righteous man before God. Likewise, the Law was given to Israel to make them “righteous” before God. Job, Isreal and Peter (a Jew) were chosen ones. Consider the Gentiles were not God’s chosen and were grafted in later after the resurrection of Jesus, by His grace through FAITH, not fire.
Pharaoh, on the other hand was fallen, a representative of Satan so-to-speak. He, too had to submit to the will of God because this historical event had to do with God’s children, Israel.
Ezekiel 31:18 states of Pharaoh, “To which among the trees of Eden are you thus equal in glory and greatness? Yet you will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth beneath; you will lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those who were slain by the sword. So is Pharaoh and all his hordes!"' declares the Lord GOD."
Likewise, God controlled Nebuchadnezzar to use him as a tool of discipline upon His children.
Isaiah 14 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar, who is Lucifer (verse 12):
15 “But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.”
19. “But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit.”
Jesus even stated that Judas was a devil (John 6:70). He, too was “allowed” to betray Christ, leading Him to the cross. Jesus said Judas was LOST, but the others were saved (John 17:12).
God sent His Son to die for all mankind, but Jesus, Who is God with us, said that not all would be saved.
Luke 13:23-24 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, ‘Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.’”
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 14:11 states, “ And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (so they can’t be dead or destroyed).
Romans 8:38-39 are summed up in the love (agape) of God, stating it is IN CHRIST JESUS. John 3:16 states that “God so loved (agapao) the world”, which is not agape love. God indeed both loves and HATES. I have a hub you can read called Hated On Account of My Name that will explain the difference.
Romans 14:11 has nothing to do with Romans 10:9 and 13. The demons confessed Who Jesus was and yet trembled. Why? Because they KNOW they are condemned.
James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
Mark 5:7 "and shouting with a loud voice, he [the demon] said, 'What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!'"
The type of confession in Romans 10:9 and 13 is what leads to salvation. To understand this concept, you need to do a word study on “repent”.
Let’s look at Judas as an example. Matthew 27:3 tells us, "Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,” (Now, did Judas know who Jesus was?)
This Greek word “repented” is not the same as repentance unto salvation, but rather regret of what he’d done and the sure sentence of condemnation. This is an excerpt from the following website: http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/
"The Greek word which is used to describe Judas’ change of mind (metamelomai) is quite different from the other Greek verb translated repent (metanoeo) which is used to describe repentance unto salvation. "Metamoeo" basically means to ‘change one’s mind.’ So it is properly translated ‘repent’ in most instances. It involves the intellect and will. “Metamelomai” has to do more with the emotions, and so does not indicate true biblical repentance. Judas’ repentance was not for sin as committed against God and Christ but for the consequences of sin. As Paul said, “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death” (2 Cor. 7:1)."
When you stated, “the orthodox view of God's master plan has so many holes in it”, you are right and mistaken at the same time. The “view” of some may have holes, but the Master Plan does not. We will not absolutely KNOW all things right now, as 1 Cor 13:12 confirms.
For Kev's first question and my answer, please read Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 1
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