Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 2

Kev said (Quoted Exactly)

Here's the rest of what I wated to say before the hub limt cut me off:

Now the fall of man did not catch God out. He is not running a disaster recovery plan. He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden when He simply didn’t need to. He knew that the devil who He created as a bad adversary would at some point bring about the fall. He planned Jesus as the sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world. Everything that happened occured with God's forknowledge.

God has everything stacked in His favour to save man:

- He knows the end from the beginning.

- The devil is His tool and submitted to God's will - the devil had to get permission to attack Job and had to ask God to sift Peter like wheat.

- Man's will is subject to God's. Pharoh wanted to set Israel free on 5 occasions, but on 9 occasions God overuled and hardened his heart. Paul confirms this in Romans 9:17-18. Nebuchadnezzar is referred to throughout the Book of Jeremiah as God’s servant whom God will use to bring judgement against Judah, Egypt, and the surrounding nations. God even vows to punish any nation that refused his rule: Jeremiah 27:8 "If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the LORD, until I destroy it by his hand".

So here a pagan king has his will controlled by God's will without even being aware of it.

Then we have the following verses:

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

So here we have God seeing the end from the beginning; he determines to save all men and prepares Jesus for that purpose; the devil is under His control; and so is the will of every man. Don't you think it so very odd that given all that, God cannot apparently do what He he sets out to do? Why does it not seem so strange to you that only 5%-ish of humanity makes it? Where is the soveregnty of God and His omnipotence?

Then what do you do with the following verses:

Romans 8:38-39 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation [including the Lake of Fire which is of God], will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So if God so loved the world to send us His only Son, then Romans confirms that God's love does not just switch off to the

lost, but He must still love those outside the city.

When the Twin Towers fell, there will have been people who were still alive whilst falling through the buildings. At some point in their descent, they died and continued to fall. Now imagine God watching the scene unfolding. Was He really calling out “I love you, I love you, I love you…….[Point of death]……I hate you, I hate you, I hate you…….”? Does God really hate those who are unsaved when they die? Is His love fickle?

Romans 14:11 It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

String these together into a logical statement you have all men will confess Jesus as Lord and be saved.

Whilst I think the case for universal salvation is unproven , the orthodox view of God's master plan has so many holes in it and leaves out very many scriptures that the church chooses to ignore because of their inconvienince to that established orthodoxy.

My Answer to Kev

Job and Peter were children of God. Satan asks permission from God before He can inflict the children of God. You do understand that since the fall, all became the children of the devil? The Bible is clear that Job was considered a righteous man before God. Likewise, the Law was given to Israel to make them “righteous” before God. Job, Isreal and Peter (a Jew) were chosen ones. Consider the Gentiles were not God’s chosen and were grafted in later after the resurrection of Jesus, by His grace through FAITH, not fire.

Pharaoh, on the other hand was fallen, a representative of Satan so-to-speak. He, too had to submit to the will of God because this historical event had to do with God’s children, Israel.

Ezekiel 31:18 states of Pharaoh, “To which among the trees of Eden are you thus equal in glory and greatness? Yet you will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth beneath; you will lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those who were slain by the sword. So is Pharaoh and all his hordes!"' declares the Lord GOD."

Likewise, God controlled Nebuchadnezzar to use him as a tool of discipline upon His children.

Isaiah 14 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar, who is Lucifer (verse 12):

15 “But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.”

19. “But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit.”

Jesus even stated that Judas was a devil (John 6:70). He, too was “allowed” to betray Christ, leading Him to the cross. Jesus said Judas was LOST, but the others were saved (John 17:12).

God sent His Son to die for all mankind, but Jesus, Who is God with us, said that not all would be saved.

Luke 13:23-24 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, ‘Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.’”

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 14:11 states, “ And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (so they can’t be dead or destroyed).

Romans 8:38-39 are summed up in the love (agape) of God, stating it is IN CHRIST JESUS. John 3:16 states that “God so loved (agapao) the world”, which is not agape love. God indeed both loves and HATES. I have a hub you can read called Hated On Account of My Name that will explain the difference.

Romans 14:11 has nothing to do with Romans 10:9 and 13. The demons confessed Who Jesus was and yet trembled. Why? Because they KNOW they are condemned.

James 2:19 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Mark 5:7 "and shouting with a loud voice, he [the demon] said, 'What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!'"

The type of confession in Romans 10:9 and 13 is what leads to salvation. To understand this concept, you need to do a word study on “repent”.

Let’s look at Judas as an example. Matthew 27:3 tells us, "Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,” (Now, did Judas know who Jesus was?)

This Greek word “repented” is not the same as repentance unto salvation, but rather regret of what he’d done and the sure sentence of condemnation. This is an excerpt from the following website: http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/

"The Greek word which is used to describe Judas’ change of mind (metamelomai) is quite different from the other Greek verb translated repent (metanoeo) which is used to describe repentance unto salvation. "Metamoeo" basically means to ‘change one’s mind.’ So it is properly translated ‘repent’ in most instances. It involves the intellect and will. “Metamelomai” has to do more with the emotions, and so does not indicate true biblical repentance. Judas’ repentance was not for sin as committed against God and Christ but for the consequences of sin. As Paul said, “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death” (2 Cor. 7:1)."

When you stated, “the orthodox view of God's master plan has so many holes in it”, you are right and mistaken at the same time. The “view” of some may have holes, but the Master Plan does not. We will not absolutely KNOW all things right now, as 1 Cor 13:12 confirms.

For Kev's first question and my answer, please read Answer to Kev: Universal Salvation 1

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12 comments

no body profile image

no body 6 years ago from Rochester, New York

I can see how Kev might think that we would see God as fickle but I believe God knows those who will never under any circumstances come to Him. Those folks serve their purpose and then come to the end of their life. However, even the evil Judas was offered the sop. Jesus knew, he, being a devil would not accept it but it was offered nonetheless. I'm sure He didn't say to His followers, "This is for everyone but Judas." He showed Himself to Judas as well. But He knew all men. He knew it for nothing but it was Judas' choice to remain in his state and God used that choice as long as he made it. He was a thief and stole from the bag, cared nothing for the poor, did not understand worship of Mary yet Jesus still held out the sop. God still made use of his choice to betray as long as he made it (with Satan's suggestion, of course) and to fulfill prophecy as well. Wonderful hub that will help lots of folks and I hope Kev as well. Love you.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Brother no body, I appreciate your comment; however I don't understand what you mean by "he did not understand worship of Mary"??? and that it was "Satan's suggestion" to use Judas to betray Jesus. I don't find those claims anywhere in the Bible? We don't worship Mary, and Jesus said Judas was a devil. The disciple that Satan requested of Jesus to sift like wheat was Peter, but he was not allowed. Satan also had to ask permission regarding Job, another child of God. God also took authority over Satan when it came to Israel in Egypt, because Israel was His chosen ones. I don't see accounts where Satan has to ask permission regarding his own. Be blessed.


no body profile image

no body 6 years ago from Rochester, New York

Sorry sissy I didn't mean to scare you, I knew what I meant. Too bad you weren't in my head at the time. It sounded real good. I meant when Mary poured the costly oil on Jesus' feet. The point went right over the head of Judas. "Can we not have sold this oil and gave to the poor?" She was worshipping him and Judas was not able to grasp the point because he had already sold out to the devil. Satan was obviously influencing his behavior concerning Jesus' betrayal. I know it was his plan as well to sell him for thirty but when he was debating it in his mind I bet he had some coaching from the old serpent. What do you think? Worship of Mary I see how bad that sounded now. Thank you for standing guard. I know it's because you love me.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Thanks for clarifying, brother. It was easy to misunderstand the way it was written, as I know you are not Catholic. Jesus said Judas was a devil when he chose him, so Judas belonged to Satan the whole time and Jesus knew it, based on John 6:7: "Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?'" Love you, too brother. Be blessed.


oscarwms profile image

oscarwms 6 years ago from PA

That is a wounderfull hub and very informative piece of appologetics. I know some churches that teach universal salvation. They take the verse that says "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'(Rom 14:11) The context had to do with giving an account of ones self to God before the judgement seat of Christ. No unbelievers will be at that seat, your salvation will not be in question. Your works there will stand or burn.Gold against wood hey and stubble shall be the sentance. Not weather you go to heaven or hell. The great white throne judgement, that's another story to tell.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Hi oscarwms, I should do more study on the Judgement Seat of Christ (which I believe is the same ast the Great White Throne Judgment). I believe that, based on Romans 8:1, believers will not face judgement, but will be rewarded (for we are not saved by our works, but rewarded for them ~ if there be any that stand). My understanding is also based on Rev 11:18-19 "And the nations were enraged, and Thy WRATH came, and the time came for the DEAD to be judged, and the time to give THEIR reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to DESTROY those who destroy the earth."

Based on Rev 20:5-6, I see the saints coming to life at the beginning of the millennial reign (to reign with Christ), and the rest of the dead (the unbelievers) coming to life after the millennial reign, when death and Hades (hell) give up the dead and the sea gives up its dead ~ these stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, judged according to their works, and whoever's name is not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:11-15).

Those judged according to their deeds (works) are unsaved as shown in 2 Cor 11:14-15 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

What's your perspective?


oscarwms profile image

oscarwms 6 years ago from PA

Indeed you do need to do more study on "the judgement seat of Chrst" As opposed to the "Great White Throne Judgment"

They are not the same.Once again we can agree to disagree agreeably :)


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

oscarwms, help me out here ~ I am open to learning. Please give me the scriptural confirmation of this. Thank you.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

oscarwms, I found a link that separates the two here: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_b...

We are not saved by our works (Eph 2:8-9), but the Word does say that our works will be tested by fire and while we may lose all our works done, we will still be saved by the righteousness in Christ. On the other hand, works that do stand (because they are Christ's work in us) will be rewarded (1 Cor 3:12-15). If believers were to give an account for sins, it would contradict God's Word in that He remembers our sin NO MORE (Is 43:25). It would make sense this judgment will happen when the saints are raptured prior to the millennial reign...the first resurrection (Luke 21:36; Rev 11:18; 20:5).

The Great White Throne Judgement is for the unbelievers (second resurrection) found in Revelation 20:7; 11-14. I don't know why the Book of Life would even be present there, along with the "books", for these will be judged according to their deeds, and no one is saved by works. This is why I felt there was only one Judgment Seat. I believe Christ is God, so because He states, "The Word I spoke will judge Him on the last day" (John 12:48), it appears Christ will be the judge in both accounts.

This is one of those things that will remain a mystery until we stand before Him. Be blessed.


parable boy 6 years ago

All will be judged, the Church, the Body of Christ, the House of God is being judged now.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Everyone else will be judged at the Great White Throne.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Romans 8:1 is speaking of "condemnation" not judgment.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ask yourself, why would God judge His own House? The same reason He judges everyone else, so that they will learn righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

God is teaching His House how to be righteous, and because God does not change, He will use this same judgment on the rest of the world for the same exact purpose. Either you believe the world and all its inhabitants will learn righteousness or you will not, and try to find a Scripture that contradicts. Scripture does not contradict, it is all in agreement. One simply needs "eyes to see and ears to hear". Gods judgment is righteous, good and fair, no wonder King David chose God's judgment on himself over mans, despite King David having died a sinner.

God be with you


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

parable boy,

Thank you for more clarification on the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. I appreciate the scriptures you listed, yet I would like to address the following:

You said, "Romans 8:1 is speaking of "condemnation" not judgment." The Greek word for condemnation is katakrima, meaning penalty. So, those in Christ Jesus do not face the penalty of the Lake of Fire.

You said, "Ask yourself, why would God judge His own House? The same reason He judges everyone else, so that they will learn righteousness.

"Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

"God is teaching His House how to be righteous, and because God does not change, He will use this same judgment on the rest of the world for the same exact purpose. Either you believe the world and all its inhabitants will learn righteousness or you will not, and try to find a Scripture that contradicts."

My response: The House of God are believers. The "world" represents unbelievers. The Scripture that contradicts what you just quoted in Isaiah 26:9 is the very next verse, 10: "Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD." These will be those at the Great White Throne Judgment, condemned to the Lake of Fire.

BTW, say "HI" to Dan :-0


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

ATTENTION READERS:

FURTHER UNIVERSALIST COMMENTS WILL BE DENIED AT THIS TIME, AS I SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TIME TO RESPOND. I WILL NOTIFY IN THE FUTURE, IF I WILL BE TAKING YOUR COMMENTS. MAY GOD BLESS ALL WHO READ UNTO HIS GLORY. AMEN.

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