Are Creationists Right? Are Evolutionists Right? ... YES! [154*13]

ONE THEORY IS THAT AT THE APEX IS GOD AND IN THE THIRD PLANE, THAT IS GOD AS WELL.
ONE THEORY IS THAT AT THE APEX IS GOD AND IN THE THIRD PLANE, THAT IS GOD AS WELL. | Source
LOOKING BACK AT THE APEX, THIS IS ABOUT 377,000 YEARS AFTER THE BIG BANG WHEN LIGHT FIRST APPEARED
LOOKING BACK AT THE APEX, THIS IS ABOUT 377,000 YEARS AFTER THE BIG BANG WHEN LIGHT FIRST APPEARED | Source
THIS IS GOD AS WELL, I BELIEVE.
THIS IS GOD AS WELL, I BELIEVE. | Source

IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU STAND

IF YOU STAND WHERE GOD STANDS, the answer is yes. If you stand where fundamentalist Christians and many others stand, the answer is Creationism and if you stand where atheists and many others stand, the answer is Evolution. Until a few moments ago, I was with that latter group of many others, a firm believer in evolution. Now, at 9:39 EDT, July 8, 2012, I am a "Yes" person, courtesy of a books-on-tape "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsh, three books of 6 cassette tapes (yes cassette, I still have one of those on purpose) for each book.

Walsh's point, rather God's points, are these:

  1. In God's world, everything is absolute, not relativistic like in ours
  2. Ours is relativistic in order for our simple minds to make sense of things, to compare things to one another in order to organize them in our heads; God doesn't need to do that
  3. That is why humans created the idea of Good and Evil, concepts unknown to God until we came up with them through our use of Free Will
  4. Creationism vs Evolution is the same thing; God doesn't know the difference
  5. 14 billion or so years ago God blinked an eye, so to speak, or maybe made a Big Bang, and the beginnings of a new Universe sprang forward.
  6. Everything that needed to exist at some point in time after that, existed then, in some form including the ingredients for human life some 14 billion years later.
  7. In that fashion, yes, God created human life in every sense that Christians believe [He] did, just not spontaneously in the form of Adam and then Eve a while later from one of Adam's ribs and only 10,000 or so years ago. Instead, just as miraculously, God provided the material and set in motion a chain of events that ultimately allowed me to type these words.
  8. In that same fashion, yes, humanity evolved the way evolutionists say it did because that is the template God created from the get go.

Now God didn't know I was going to type these particular words, God just provided the environment that allowed me to, should I so choose, God could care less whether I did or did not or whether I change any minds with what I write. All God wants to do is experience through us, and everything else that was created, the results of the creation.

A final thought. Humanity is truly the masters of our own fate, God has seen to that by giving us TRUE free will. God doesn't care whether we like God or dislike God, although I suspect God would prefer the former; nevertheless, God will not punish us for whichever choice we make, for to do so implies there is no free will in the first place. God does not want us praying to God FOR something, God will not give it to you. If you pray to God at all, do it out of Thanks; that, I am sure, is all God wants for God has given you all God can give you for God as already given you Everything and doesn't need to do it a second time, don't you see. It is up to you what you do with it.

A New Discovery

3/5/15 - IT WAS JUST REPORTED THAT A JAWBONE (this is a link) from the genus Homo was found in the Afar region of Ethiopia. What makes this one special is its age. You see, Lucy (species - Australopithecus afarensis), is the oldest known precursor to humans at 3.2 million years old. Then you have many fossil findings beginning at 2.3 million years old. This jawbone, however, has been dated at 2.8 million years old, smack dab in the middle of the million year gap of our knowledge. Scientist are expecting great things from this set of 5 teeth.

MY PLACE IN THE COSMOS

EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, ESPECIALLY WHEN I GET FULL OF MYSELF, I need to remind myself where I really stand in relation to God and everything else, for that matter. (Sometimes I like to do this just to feel the tingle of awe it brings on.) A couple of decades ago I was in this particular exhibit in the National Air and Space museum in Washington D.C. standing in front of this HUGE map of space on the wall, awestruck. It was sort of like the the third picture above, but a 1,000 time larger; it was a big wall. On it were many galaxies and one of them was the Milky Way, our galaxy with its beautifully spiralling arms. Inside the Milky Way were many solar systems arranged all up and down the various arms of the Milky Way and there was an arrow on the wall pointing to a little bright spot on one of the arms; the sign on the arrow simply said ... You Are Here.

You might have been able to picture that in your head, and you might not have been able to, but let me use the three pictures above to try to achieve the same feeling I got when I read those three simple words. Look at the first picture and focus at the bottom of the upside-down pyramid, at what I guess is called the apex, except it is on the bottom. That point is the Big Bang; the point where God becomes the Universe. Below that point, you can imagine anything you want, but that is God before there was positive Time as we understand Time. Above that point is our reality.

Move up a little bit into the red-yellow shaded area; this is where Time begins "marching on." The thickness of that reddish area above the apex is around 377,000 years after the Big Bang. This is the point where the new Universe has cooled enough and become less dense enough that photons (think of light or Star Trek) stop bumping into to everything and getting destroyed; they can now go in straight lines like light is supposed to and the Universe becomes transparent.

Now jump up to the third pane, the one at the top; that is the Universe some 13.7 billion years later. In other words, today. Now, imagine you are lying down, atop that pane looking down through time toward the apex; that is what you are actually doing when you look up in the night sky and see far distant stars, you are seeing back in time. What do you think you would see? Well, if you could see Microwaves, you would see a soft glow of some sort way off in deep, deep space. That would be the second picture, you would be looking at the Universe, as it was 13.4 billion years ago, you would be seeing what is called the Cosmic Microwave Background (CBR) radiation. So, here is where we begin our journey.

At that point in time, all there was in terms of matter that you would recognize are a bunch of hydrogen and helium nuclei running around all over space, there were no stars or galaxies, just bits of real matter, dark energy, dark matter, and a ton of building block particles with strange names like quarks, and gluon, and hadrons, and God particles. What you do know for sure as well, you are definitely not there; you must wait your turn; you must let time march on.

And, march on it does, expanding and condensing and growing, all at the same time. All of those green, blue, and white dots start merging and become the uncountable number of spinning swirls which begin to form from all those tiny particles with strange sounding names. The Universe keeps expanding still, unfolding before your eyes as you look down upon it from above, still not seeing where you are. Billion of years pass on by and now it is too much to take in at once, so you just look at one of those swirls, and you turn your gaze to the third picture.

You know it is today now, and you know you are there somewhere, because here you are looking for yourself, aren't you? So you gaze all over the third picture wondering where in this little corner of the Cosmos you could possibly be. ... Finally, you spy yourself, in that little bright spot, our solar system, on the bottom edge of the picture in the lower right-hand corner, sitting in your chair reading a hub,

There, I have found my place in the Cosmos.

IMPACT QUESTION

Did you find the discussion above -

  • Similar to your own way of thinking?
  • Dissimilar to your own way of thinking?
  • Making you begin to think about such things?
  • Think about maybe changing how you think about these things?
See results without voting

BECOMING AWARE

At what age do you believe you became convinced Christianity, Judeism, or Islam was or was not the correct belief system for you?

  • Less than 8 years old
  • 8 years old
  • 9 years old
  • 10 years old
  • 11 years old
  • 12 years old
  • 13 years old
  • 14 years old
  • 15 years old
  • 16 years old
  • 17 years old
  • 18 years old
  • 19 years old
  • 20 years old
  • 21 years old
  • Greater than 21 years old
See results without voting

DEMOGRAPHIC SURVEY #1

Do you consider yourself more closely aligned with -

  • Conservatives?
  • Progressives?
  • Moderates?
See results without voting

DEMOGRAPHIC SURVEY #2

Are you -

  • Male?
  • Female?
See results without voting

More by this Author


Comments 19 comments

jo miller profile image

jo miller 4 years ago from Tennessee

I'm really pleased to see you going here. Well done.

I have often said the extreme fundamentalist and atheist seem to be peas out of the same pod--neither has much faith.

My favorite Bible verse, by the way, is "Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In all things give thanks." Wendell Berry has one of his characters use that quote and then add, "I'm not always able to do that, but those are the right instructions."


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City

God is simply not needed to explain anything in the universe. That is the main issue at hand. People are free to believe in God or whatever they want in free societies, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe in God from a rational or logical (and therefore scientific) point of view. Reality, evolution, and everything else can be analyzed and understood without any reference to God or any other supernatural force. Creationism is not scientific, nor can it ever be.


HSchneider 4 years ago from Parsippany, New Jersey

Very interesting Hub, My Esoteric. I have always believed some sort of God or force created the Universe or Big Bang. Evolution, of course, then came after that. Religion gives people comfort and a direction in life and this is fine. It is not fine when fundamentalists try to dictate to the rest of us. I agree we were given Free Will to do with this life and world what we see fit. Also to make it better for all. My third Hub, "Musings on the Meaning of Life" expanded upon these views. Great food for thought and thank you for this article.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

Thank you all, even you Secularist :-). I am about as scientific a person as you can get, INTP through-and-through, yet neither you nor I with all of the science in the world that we know of now or can imagine in the future at the moment can fathom what occurred at the origin of the Universe minus one millisecond. They have some pretty good theories of what might be going one 10 to the -32 seconds after the Big Bang (Hadron forming) but not 10 to the -32 seconds BEFORE the Big Bang.

It is at that point you are left with a void from whence the Universe emerged, and I am left with God from whence it emerged. I suspect we are both satisfied with that outcome, however.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

I think I read that hub of yours, HS, I will have to go and take a look and link it in any case.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

Oh, and another point Secularist. Of course you are very correct is stating Creationism is not a Science, no matter how hard fundamentalist Christians try to twist and turn it to make it so; it is simply an unprovable belief.

But, you must give the point that the Universe was somehow "created", can't you? The Big Bang did happen, after all. Now step back a few miles from your paradigm of what you think others think God is, the one you have been pummeled with all your life and you have been rightly denying, just like I have.

Assume for arguments sake that before time, before the Big Bang, there was some unknown miasma of forces and energy which we cannot understand that self-organized in such away that it coalesced in some intelligent way (why not, we don’t know what we are dealing with anyway) to a point which exploded into our Universe, into matter and energy as we know it today. To me, that is God, the Universe IS God, you and I are part of God. The sum total of all the thoughts of all the sentient beings in the Universe are the thoughts of God, so on and so forth. That is how I rationalize and set the fundamentalist's teeth on edge at the same time, lol.


Pamela-anne profile image

Pamela-anne 4 years ago from Kitchener, Ontario

This was a good read thanks for sharing keep up the good hubs! take care pam.


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City

My:

"They have some pretty good theories of what might be going one 10 to the -32 seconds after the Big Bang (Hadron forming) but not 10 to the -32 seconds BEFORE the Big Bang."

Actually, they do. The predominant theory at the moment if I'm not mistaken is that the Big Bang erupted from the quantum foam, an event of extreme low probability (which is why it almost never happens). So while this universe was created, the larger reality that contains the universe is uncreated. So no, I do not have a void at all.

Even if that theory is incorrect, the fact remains there is no reason to think that reality is created. Logic tells us the default position is to believe reality is uncreated.

"It is at that point you are left with a void from whence the Universe emerged, and I am left with God from whence it emerged."

Again, no void here. However, assuming a supernatural force, why must it be God? Why not some other kind of supernatural force? There is no reason why a supernaturalist must believe it was specifically God, which is another problem for any God believer.

"... the Universe IS God, you and I are part of God."

So what you believe evidently is pantheism.

I think this way of thinking is not particularly helpful though, because you have simply redefined "God" as "everything." So two interesting facts come from this: (1) ironically, this produces an uncreated reality (also known as "God"), exactly in line with my position, and (2) "creation" is no longer allowed because it is impossible for a thing to create itself; this contradicts your earlier statement that God "created" the universe.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

Very good points all, secularists, and I have been over them with myself many times before. Yes, pantheist is as close a term as I found so far that sort of describes what I think. I don't think of things before Time as supernatural, just unknown, and yes, the term God, not the more popular Christian idea of one (my God doesn't think independently from the rest of us, for example, except for litarary license of course), but the Baruch Spinoza version is what I have chosen to label what ever it was that started it all.

As to creating itself, now that is the conundrum, isn't it. For that, I simply rely on Spinoza's convoluted logic and leave it at that since my head starts hurting every time I try to solve it. Because nobody has the answer to that question, which is at the root of all theories, including yours, one must simply "make do" with what feels best and not kill anybody else who might disagree with them in the process, like some of our more popular religions have.


Bob Green Innes profile image

Bob Green Innes 4 years ago from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Nice article. Food for thought. Thanks


secularist10 profile image

secularist10 4 years ago from New York City

My:

I don't think we need to rely on what "feels" best. I think certain explanations are more reasonable than others, independent of feelings. Although of course we can never know for sure, nevertheless logic and reason are very useful tools if we use them.

For instance, rigorous application of reason and logic predicted the existence of the Higgs Boson, and now, decades later, it has been discovered empirically. The same can be said of the atom and many other things.

This is why I think your treatment of creationism is problematic, because you are not accounting for the vast illogic and true stubbornness of the founders and apologists of creationism. Creationism at its core is a rejection of science and scientific values, and boldly sets itself as incompatible with evolution.

It's one thing to say that God is in the background of a natural process that is accessible through science (an unprovable claim, but not strictly contradicted by science). It's quite another to say that God is or was actively intervening in specific niceties of the natural process, which is what creationism claims. The creationist perspective requires us to at least temporarily suspend our commitment to naturalism. And once temporarily suspended, it quickly devolves (pardon the pun) into permanent suspension.

That is why a school board in recent years (I forget which state it was), in light of the tension between the naturalism that underlies science and their religious/ supernatural values, sought to actually rewrite the definition of science! The religious simply cannot have it both ways. Either they fully accept naturalism and all of its potential, or they don't.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

Understood. But in return, you do understand that I am taking their term and redefining it (both of them actually) in a way that keeps the true meaning of the word (no matter which way you cut it, the Universe was somehow "created", you said a flux, so where did the flux come from, etc), it had to come from somewhere.)

Christian's use "Creation" in a very narrow and wrong sense, just as they do the term God. Spinoza proved very nicely that, even if there is no God, their use of the term clearly is a misuse. The Christian God can, by their own definition, no more be a true God than you or me, if you believed in one. The same with Creationism, the only reason they hang on to it like they do is to try to, hehe, prove humans didn't come from apes and to show God is up there moving His chess pieces around for fun and games.

My view is so much broader than that. First, you are almost right about the Hadron, the empirical evidence isn't quite there yet. The scientists just started collecting the second set of validating observations to make sure the statistical implications they saw from the first set pan out.

Second, as far as I know, there is only speculation on what there was on the other side of Time = 0 and no science at all that is similar to what produced the theory of the existence of the Haydron.

Third, until they do, I am left with "Something" created the Universe and that "Something" I call God

Fourth, I call it God, which is the collective sum of all there is, or Nature, in order to give explanation to the force that comes into being when two people step into the same room together. It isn't a physical force, a quark, lepton, or whatever, but a manifistation both feel nevertheless. I want an explanation for why that occurred.

Fifth, for the moment, that explanation is God. It is not that God is up there seeing this saying, OK, these to people stepped into the room together so let them feel uncomtorable, or let them feel love, or hate or let them feel different from how they felt a moment before even though there is no particulaly good reason to (I can always create a scanario where this is true); no, not that kind of God. The God I am talking about is simply the force itself, that is part of God, part of the original creation.


phdast7 profile image

phdast7 4 years ago from Atlanta, Georgia

My Esoterica - Fascinating article and comments, especially yours. I am a very liberal (in the original meaning of the word, having nothing to do with the democratic party or the republican spin doctors) Christian. Not quite where you are, but I appreciate what you have laid out and how you make sense of it all. Great stuff. Sharing.


MizBejabbers profile image

MizBejabbers 4 years ago from Arkansas

ME, now you are getting into real esoteric thinking, which I note can’t be agreed upon by some of your readers, but that’s OK. Everyone has the right to his viewpoint. I’ve studied this subject for a long time and come up with some questions. Why does God have to be supernatural? Why can’t God be a part of the natural process, a dimension, the epitome of the many dimensions? Why does the concept of God have to either creationist or nonexistent as scientific? What is a god, anyway? Why can’t we believe in beings superior to ourselves, and if we do, why do the superior beings have to be gods?

Secularist10: You may be interested to know that the “old” Baptist Church, in which I grew up, had an interesting concept. Since God was ALL, HE had to make the universe out of himself since there were no other materials available. Is this an esoteric concept, or what?

ME, I voted you up and awesome!


peoplepower73 profile image

peoplepower73 4 years ago from Placentia California

I think human kind has a need to rationalize those things that cannot be explained into something bigger than ourselves. And then be in awe of whatever we rationalized. This applies to ancient times as well as modern times. It's just expressed diferrently in each era. I think this is a need that is in our DNA. It is hard for us to grasp a concept like before the beginning of the universe and the fact that it is infinite, without either ascribing it to scientific or spiritual reasoning. In some of us our DNA is attuned to the scientific and in others it's attuned to the spiritual. This hub is very thought provoking, well done. voting up, interesting, and sharing.


suzettenaples profile image

suzettenaples 4 years ago from Taos, NM

Very thoughtful discussion here. You make a good presentation and good points for everyone to think about. I agree with your logic and I have since I was a child. I'm glad you had an epiphany! When I was in school and was taught evolution, I came to the same conclusions: God created the Big Bang or however we got started and then man evolved from there. I have always believed the Bible stories to be metaphors and parables to explain life to man many years ago. I have never taken the Bible literally athough I do live by the 10 commandments. But, there will always be those that do see the words in the Bible as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and will not entertain any other ideas or explanations. To each his own. I think you have written a very enlightened piece here and I support your vision of God and the world. Well done, well said, and well written!


Freeway Flyer profile image

Freeway Flyer 4 years ago

Like you, I see no inherent contradiction between theism and evolution. And your conception of God makes more sense than the major religious belief systems. Science is limited in its scope, and I doubt that it will ever have the capacity to prove or disprove the existence of God. This is why I find it hard to believe that we will be ultimately judged by our ability to choose the right theology.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

Thank you all who just recently commented, I appreciate them very much and they all add valuable insight into the discussion. For those who shared this, thank you for that to.

MizB, I like the idea of no other material available.

Suzett, you are the third or fourth person who indicated a conviction at an early age, three away from Christianity and one for it. It inspired me to put out another of my annoying polls, lol.

Freeway, I suspect your right because I can't conceive of anyone ever being able to provide a final answer to "who created?" It is really, really hard to wrap your head around infinity, especially when you are trying to get to it by going backwards.


My Esoteric profile image

My Esoteric 4 years ago from Keystone Heights, FL Author

I am sort of surprised those on the Right haven't participated in the poll yet, wonder why? I tried to keep this hub rather free of liberal diatribe.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working