BAPTISM now SAVES Us?

Through Water

Many people claim that water baptism is a requirement of salvation, in that if anyone is not baptized in water they are not saved. Likewise, if they have been baptized in water, they are saved. This exhortation is to bring to you Holy Ghost understanding, if you are willing to receive it.

Let’s begin by reading the verse most often quoted by those of this belief:

  • 1 Pet 3:21 “The like figure [that of Noah and the flood] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…”

I attempted to see a correlation between the flood and water-baptism. First of all, Noah and his family were not submerged in water, nor saved by the water; on the contrary, the sinful world was destroyed by it. Likewise, if we look at the parting of the Red Sea (1 Cor 10:1-2), the Israelites were not covered in water, but the sea swallowed up the sinful soldiers and killed them all. Therefore, the only correlation I see is that water baptism symbolizes cleansing of sin by death of the sinners. No one was saved BY the water, but rather THROUGH the water (1 Pet 3:20).

The Baptism of John vs The Baptism of Jesus

Eph 4:5 declares that “There is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM” and it’s time to shed some light on the fact that this ‘one baptism’ is not the mere baptism of WATER. We can look at the Apostle Paul’s ministry to the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19:1-6:

  • “He said to them, ’Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?’ And they said to him, ‘No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.’ And he said, ‘Into what then were you baptized?’ And they said, ‘Into John's baptism.’ Paul said, ‘John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.’ When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”

In Acts 2:38, we read, Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Keep in mind that Peter preached these words on the Day of Pentecost (the Day the Holy Spirit came down upon them and baptized all 120 in that upper room, prior to his preaching). Water was not present in that upper room when the Holy Spirit was poured out, according to Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28). This is what is known as ‘the baptism of the Holy Spirit’, evidenced by what appeared to be ‘tongues of fire’ resting upon each individual’s head. Likewise, the Apostles began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4).

Let’s go back to John the Baptist’s testimony in Mat 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” This was Paul’s message to the disciples at Ephesus!

It’s obvious these disciples had already received John’s water-baptism of repentance, yet they had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit. We can assume they may have been water-baptized in the name of John, for it was after they heard they were to “believe in Him who was coming after John, that is, in Jesus”, they were then “baptized in the name of the LORD Jesus”, at which time they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The other side of this, however, is Acts 8:15-16: "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)". So even water baptism in the name of the LORD Jesus does not guarantee receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There's got to be more to our understanding.

True or False?
True or False?
Scriptural or Non-scriptural?
Scriptural or Non-scriptural?
TRUE
TRUE

Jewish or Roman Baptism?

Some assume that “when Paul had laid his hands upon them”, it indicates they were baptized again in water. Did you know that water baptism, also known as the mikveh, NEVER allowed the one being baptized to be touched by another? THIS would have been the type of baptism our LORD Jesus partook of. The person would enter a body of flowing water (aka “living water”) and would fully submerge themselves in the presence of a witness(es). John came to bear witness of Christ and thus he was the witness at the mikveh of our LORD.

The Jews view the mikveh as a symbol of new birth and rightfully so. It is the same for born-again believers today. Jesus said in John 3:5Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Is He speaking of water-baptism here? Actually, no. If you look at the next verse and the context of the whole chapter, we see the interpretation: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh [water of the mother’s womb], and that which is born of the Spirit [born of God] is spirit.” If anything, you should view water-baptism as your new or second birth.

The Jews had many rituals of cleansing besides the mikveh, namely that of circumcision. However, we can read in Rom 2:29, “But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.” Now can we correlate this to 1 Pet 2:21, in that water-baptism is not about “the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God”? If literal circumcision or literal, living water could cleanse us, we would not have needed the shed blood of our Savior!

If water-baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, Paul would NOT have stated in 1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.”

  • Let’s look at Heb 9:22: “And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Where does this come from in the Law? Lev 14:13 “And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:”

There was a sin offering (either the blood of one of two goats or a lamb) and a burnt offering (a ram = imputed righteousness). You may read more about these offerings or sacrifices in my hub The Ram for Abraham! We must understand that the shedding of blood alone FORGIVES sin, and the total consumption (baptism) by fire imputes righteousness.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire

Truly, the LORD Jesus shed His blood as our sin sacrifice and He alone baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE! The Greek word for 'fire' is 'pur', meaning trials and afflictions. Ironically, it is the same word used for the Lake of Fire! The Lake of Fire is also called the ‘second death’ (Rev 20:14). Our LORD said in Rev 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.”

We are forgiven by His shed blood, immersed in the Living Water (John 4:10; 7:38) and consumed in His FIRE. The wholeness of salvation is brought to consummation by overcoming trials and afflictions (Rev 21:7), where our faith shall come forth like GOLD, tried in the FIRE seven (complete) times (Job 23:10; Rev 3:18; Dan 3:19; Ps 12:6). Let's look at a couple of scriptures regarding the words of our LORD:

  • Luke 12:49-50 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!"
  • Mark 10:38 "But Jesus said to them, 'You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

Wait? I thought Jesus was already 'baptized' by John!

Baptized in the NAME

Why are we to be water-baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ? First of all, if you are already arguing within your indoctrinated mind that we are to be baptized in the ‘name’ (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, note that NONE of the Apostles carried out this fictitious ‘command’ of the LORD, Jesus Christ. Why? Because Jesus NEVER said that.

  • The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 2, pg 263)"

In fact, Mat 28:19 never even mentioned baptism in its original text. It read, “Go ye, and make disciples of all nations in My name.”

WOE to the Roman Catholic abomination!

  • “The Pope is of great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws... The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth." -Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Ribliotheca, " Papa," art. 2, translated.
  • "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate [to abolish, do away with, or annul] laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap. (The Pope can modify divine law.) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary.

The Word of God is NOT to be added to or subtracted from! (Deut 4:2, 12:32; Prov 30:6; Rev 22:18-19)

Have you ever thought to look up the Greek word for ‘NAME’? It is 3686. onoma name; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others. ["According to Hebrew notions, a name is inseparable from the person to whom it belongs, i.e. it is something of his essence. Therefore, in the case of the God, it is specially sacred" (Souter).]

Yes, Jesus did say in John 15:16, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” But what did He mean?

  • Let's look up the definition of baptism found in the Strongs Greek 908 1. used tropically of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed.

Mat 16:24 “Then Jesus said to His disciples, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.”
Mat 16:24 “Then Jesus said to His disciples, ‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.”

The Baptism that SAVES

Water baptism is an ordinance and is symbolic of repentance from sin and our commitment to no longer live according to the flesh (death of sin), but according to the Spirit (new life in Christ). If our heart-felt commitment is genuine, this faith will manifest or reveal the character of Christ in us. The act of water baptism, in and of itself, does not forgive sin, guarantee the receipt of the Holy Spirit or save a person. So, don’t tell someone who is on his/her deathbed or bleeding to death on the battlefield that they must get water-baptized or they’re going to hell.

Again, it is only the shed blood of the Lamb that forgives sin. The disciples in Ephesus had not yet received the Holy Spirit when they believed or were water-baptized. On the other hand, if we look at Acts 10:44-48, the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to believers BEFORE they were water-baptized. The Holy Spirit CANNOT baptize (fully envelope/indwell) someone who has not been forgiven! Truly, you become the temple (dwelling place) of the Holy Spirit! (1 Cor 6:19)

According to the following scriptures, salvation comes by overcoming the fire of trials and afflictions that test or prove our professed faith.

  • Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…” This does not say, “By grace you have been saved.” You are saved through FAITH. And what is faith? Simple belief? James 2:19 “the demons also believe, and shudder.” What did Paul mean when he wrote in Phil 2:12, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”? Read Heb 11 to understand faith in action.
  • Job 23:10 “But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.”
  • 1 Pet 1:7 (NLT) “These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”
  • Rev 3:18 “I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.”
  • Rev 21:7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.”
  • Mat 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

May we OPEN OUR BLIND EYES regarding what the ONE BAPTISM that saves us is; amen.

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Comments 79 comments

Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 3 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

"woe to the Catholic abomination" ?

I am not made God by my baptism. And my baptism may be of fire or dirt or the Holy spirit or of water. But my baptism is a marriage between me and mine.

We must not condemn that which does not conform to our views, but love that which aims in our same direction of love.


2besure profile image

2besure 3 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

Wow, this could be a booklet! Too often we take one scripture and try to make a doctrine out of it. Great hub! Voted up


teacherjoe52 profile image

teacherjoe52 3 years ago

Good morning Judah's Daughter.

Other than being babtized as a baby I never received the water imersion babtism.

The day I repented and acepted Christ on the dirt floor in a tent during a revival I felt being washed inside and felt the power of the Holy Spirit come dwell within me.

That was my babtisim.

The cerimony (being phsyicall imersed in water) is not important. Being Babtized in spirit it.

May the Holy Spirit dwell richly in your heart and life.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi erickdirker - yes! "Woe to the Catholic abomination", for they BROKE the commandment of God, which is NOT to add or take away from His Word. They put words INTO the mouth of the LORD Himself regarding baptism - we are not to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus NEVER said that. I'm not condemning them for not "conforming to MY views", but because God condemns them.

Rev 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book." While some could claim this only applies to the book of Revelation, we can read God's commands regarding adding to or taking away from His Word in Deut 4:2, 12:32 and Prov 30:6. You should not defend Her in this, for She is filthy with abominations. THIS is only the beginning of them...

I do love you in the LORD, but I am passionately against the Catholic church's altering of the Bible and Her massive, pagan practices.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi sister, 2besure! It is a fact that entire doctrines are birthed out of a scripture or two, without considering the whole counsel of God's Word on the subject. Of course, there's carnal understanding and then there's anointed understanding, given by the Holy Spirit. He is faithful to teach us more and more as we mature in Him and are able to receive it (overcome indoctrination, which IS a stronghold).

I'm glad you enjoyed this publication. I learned a lot from the LORD today - had to write it all down, while it was fresh and burning in my spirit. Thank you so much and God bless you!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi, teacherjoe52! You know, the Jews did have their infants participate in the mikveh (the parent would let go of the child so s/he would not be touched as submerged, then lift them up from beneath the water), so this may be where Catholicism got the practice.

Some churches compare infant baptism to that of the eighth-day circumcision (of boys), as a symbol of cleansing, but again water doesn’t truly cleanse anyone, any more than literal circumcision does.

I am not teaching against water baptism, for it is an ordinance followed by the very first believers on the Day of Pentecost and ever since; however, I feel it necessary to give proper understanding to what baptism really IS (not the act, but the total and radical conversion from our old man to the new man).

Personally, I believe the Word teaches that children need not be ‘saved’ or ‘baptized’, for Jesus said in Mat 19:14, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." In my hub “And the Books Were Opened”, I go into the scriptures that show EVERYONE’s names start out in the Lamb’s Book of Life (for God is our Creator). Only the wicked have their names blotted out (those who reject salvation through Christ Jesus). When we come to the age of making that decision to accept the ‘betrothal proposal’ (as I call it), do we consummate and seal the Covenant with our LORD. This is when we are ‘born again’ and are baptized with the understanding of what it means.

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/And-The-Bo...

I praise the LORD you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit by faith in the LORD, Jesus Christ. You are a blessing to me and I’m certain, to all who know you…especially, God.


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 3 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

You are Rockin on this hub! I am feeling your passion. Wonderful thoughtful responses. I really like it.

(excuse me, sometimes I like to rage on the positive)


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

I have never been baptized except when I was a baby. However, I do know that Jesus was crucified for our sins. Then He rose from the dead. Our sins have been forgiven. I have sinned and am very imperfect. But, God and His Son have accepted me. I praise God and ask for forgiveness and thank God for this. If it were not for Jesus and God's love for us and our imperfections, wow. I have no idea what it would be. I never want to go back to the life I had before God found me.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi sister, Michele - you have written a very good hub called "What Happened to Make Pagans become Christians?" - and I commented about how the Catholic church brought in all kinds of pagan doctrines, the first and foremost being that of God in three Persons (Tertullian 200 AD, a converted Catholic priest). Yahushua is YHWH in the flesh, YHWH Himself (Acts 20:28). We must confess that Jesus Christ (Yahushua ha Mashiach) is LORD (YHWH) and confess that He was raised from the dead (He raised Himself from the dead - John 10:18; John 2:19), in order to be saved (Rom 10:9). Not sure why you or ericdierker were baptized as infants, but I'm certain you know that baptism (water-sprinkling) did not save you. May we trust in our Teacher, who is God Himself (John 16:13; 14:6 & 18; 2 Cor 3:17), to shed indoctrination and receive of the rhema (spoken, revealed Word) given by the Logos (the Word) of YHWH Himself (Rom 10:17) . I love you dearly.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

That is true. Water baptism as a baby does not save anyone. I do confess because I need to, and God already knows.

I love you dearly also.


Verily Prime profile image

Verily Prime 3 years ago from New York

Excellent on the explanation about Baptism - and I say the truth is the truth though our Catholic brothers and sisters may be upset... I have always said in reading the Scriptures that Peter would be righteously upset that he is considered the first Pope in light of some of the perversions - like Baptism of the Dead; Pergutory; or denying the fact that Mary bore other Children - once again, great work!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I thank you, Verily Prime, for your edifying compliments. The Word is the Truth, but so many people don't read it for themselves. I just watched a documentary on the history of the Bible and how precious it is that we have it! Too many rely on the leaders of their organized church to teach them, and so many doctrines of error are birthed by ignorant 'understanding' because even the pastors are sheepole, going along with the traditional doctrines, many birthed straight from the Catholic church.

Yes, Peter would be righteously upset, no doubt. GOD is UPSET! There are so many perversions in the Catholic doctrine, I could write a few hubs on the subject. I didn't know, however, that they practice baptism for the dead, though I am not surprised anymore.

I'm glad you confirm what is written here and again, I so appreciate your coming by to read and comment. God bless you!


Verily Prime profile image

Verily Prime 3 years ago from New York

Judah's daughter - let me correct my statement about the Catholic doctrine when I wrote about the concept of Baptism for the dead... I meant prayers for the dead. Incidentally, do not be afraid to correct me becauseI have no ego to bruse when it comes to the Word of God... at least I will give you a spirited debate on the issue if we disagree.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Oh, okay brother! I was wondering if I'd been 'in the dark' about the baptism for the dead regarding the Catholic church. I do know Mormonism practices such. Thank you for clarifying that. You know I would 'reason' with you, if I felt something you said needed clarification - however, in this case, I had no idea....lol Praise God.


teaches12345 profile image

teaches12345 3 years ago

You have written this with clarity and it very much explains the purpose of water baptism. The true baptism through Christ is what really matters in the end, as you have written. God bless you.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, dear sister, teaches12345. You are ALWAYS such a blessing to me! And God bless you abundantly, from my heart to yours :-)


PapawStan profile image

PapawStan 3 years ago

Excellent sysnopsis, research and clearly written and as I believe also. I believe a person knows when they are saved. There is a change in the very essence of the person to want to live more like Christ. We were born in and of sin and we will always sin until the day of rapture and Lord takes us home with him. We must repent of our sins daily. The water I think symbolizes a "New Birth in Christ." Great Article, Sister!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, PapawStan! This was eye-opening to me. The Bible is so full of awesome things and the more we read it and receive the understanding by the Spirit, the more blessed we are. Our LORD loves us so much and wants His servants equipped!!

I recently learned about the stages of betrothal (not sure if you read my hub "The ONLY Cause for DIVORCE", but it's included in there. One of the stages is the mikveh (baptism) by the bride and groom. It symbolizes cleansing of the past and commitment to the betrothed, all the way up to the marriage ceremony. For this reason, I think water-baptism is a beautiful thing. Is it necessary for salvation? I don't read that in the Word. Does the water itself forgive sins? No. Does it make us committed to Christ? No. What can wash away my sin? Nothing, but the blood of Jesus. What makes me committed to Christ? A true regeneration by His Spirit (the circumcision/cleansing of the heart). Amen!


Ericdierker profile image

Ericdierker 3 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

Is baptism not a sacred vow between God and Man? Am I not baptized when I commit? And what child who knows only love is not committed?

Baptism is wonderful, but the ritual does not own the soul, the Lord does.

We who speak ritual must be sure that the ritual does not become our law and separate any from God. What an empty gong where there is not love! I am not saved by ritual, I am saved by love.


PapawStan profile image

PapawStan 3 years ago

I agree with you a 100% on "Can the Water Save You." Absolutely Not! Yes, I read your hubpage on "The ONLY Cause for DIVORCE." Another Great Article. I'm trying to make my way through all of them. I know you & my brother conversed on that and you cleared up some misgivings he had as well.

You know this is a verse in a song and it is the absolute truth!

"What can wash away my sin? Nothing, but the blood of Jesus!" AMEN!

Keep Enlightening Us, Sister!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Brother Ericdierker, so good to see you again! Your comment hits the nail on the head! And I say amen, especially to "We who speak ritual must be sure that the ritual does not become our law and separate any from God." Bless you!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Blessings to you and thankful for the blessing from you, ultimately in the LORD, brother PapawStan! Love your comment! "Can the Water Save You." Absolutely Not!" Amen! Those who put their faith in rituals are sorely missing the mark. I am so humbled and overjoyed at the same time, to realize God had a healing message for your brother, Michael. It was the same healing message given to me, for his scenario and mine are identical in regard to marriage/adultery. God's Word is healing to some and judgment to others. I did love the understanding about the symbolism of the mikveh in the betrothal stages of marriage. It brought another element of application where water-baptism is concerned. Did you know that a person dunks themelves into a body of flowing, living water, not touched by another, in the mikveh? Our churches even have that mixed up.

Love those old hymns, written by the saints, our forefathers! There are some that are not sciptural, written by Catholics, propagating their pagan doctrines, sure enough (for example "...God in three persons, blessed Trinity", written by Reginald Heber (1826)). In everything, we must subject even hymns to the Word of Christ (2 Cor 10:5). I don't know where you stand on the Trinity doctrine, whether you hold to the traditional understanding of three eternal, co-equal persons, each not the other, unified as 'one' or One God in three roles (there are really seven manifestations of God throughout the Bible, so why limit Him to three), but as you read my hubs, you will see I am the latter, not the former. I was 'formerly' an indoctrinated 'Trinitarian', but am no longer. Jesus is God Himself, the Almighty, our Creator, Savior, Redeemer, King, Fortress, Provider, Healer, Shepherd, Husband, etc. etc. etc. HalleluYah to YHWH!


PapawStan profile image

PapawStan 3 years ago

Then let me clear it up for you, I believe God to be one. As I wrote in a comment on another one of your post, I believe God is "Omnipetent & Omnipresent!" A person needs to understand and dwell on these words and their meaning and I mean ponder them for a while for what they mean. I believe "Emmanuel means God With Us." He had to come to earth in human form to experience all of man's sins, take them upon himself and die a human death as the 2nd Adam.

I've had some pretty shallow questions asked of me, by people with the wrong intentions and then by some that really wanted to understand what I believe. I believe he is God and I believe with him, "anything is possible." I believe when I pray and Praise and Thanks my God, I offer my prayer in Jesus name to acknowledge what Jesus (God) did for me. I hope people can understand that and that I don't confuse too many in explaining it.

Again, I quote that same piece of scripture, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah (55:8 KJV) I take it on faith!

Funny you should mention that song, "Holy, Holy, Holy!" The same thought came to my mind. You think he was talking to us both at the same time?!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Beautiful!! Beautiful!! Beautiful!! Oops, that might be interpreted to mean you are three persons, brother PapawStan. That's the doctrine I've heard about "Holy, Holy, Holy" - "see, there's three holies, so there must be three persons!" Enough already.

What you've said is in no way confusing. That's the beauty of the gospel. It is simple and revealed to the simple. It is revealed to those who are like children. The confusion comes from the Enemy - the doctrine of the Trinity is confusing (thus, deemed a 'mystery'); it breeds confusion and nearly handicaps anyone so indoctrinated to unwind that ball of twine and receive the simple Truth.

I mean, here's a couple of examples:

If God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is God, but is not the Father, when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and beget the Son, isn't He the Father?

Isa 44:24 states, "Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb, I am YHWH that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens ALONE; that spreads abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Now, if they read the NIV in John 1:3 "Through Him all things were made", we have the first Person creating everything through the second Person. This does not align with Isa 44:24. However, if we read John 1:3 in the Greek as translated in the KJV, it says "By Him all things were made". WOW. Can't we just keep it simple?

God bless you, my dear brother. I am thankful God led you to my hubs and that we're connected on Facebook, too! You're a joy to my heart.


PapawStan profile image

PapawStan 3 years ago

Yes, It hit me, I sang that song so much, yet paid no attention to the verse "God In Three Persons, Blessed Trinity!" Obviously came from someone not believing in the One. It will be tough for me to sing that now! ;-)

God Bless You too, Good Sister! I am thankfuk as well, that I was looking for answers and someone led me here! I wonder who it was?! You & I both know!


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

You said, "note that NONE of the Apostles carried out this fictitious ‘command’ of the LORD, Jesus Christ.

But the Scriptures say otherwise,

Act 2:38 " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins,

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: (in the name of Jesus Christ)

(Also note the reason for being baptized in Jesus Name; "for the remission of sins" So without it your sins are not remitted)

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (See here, a separate experience from the Holy Ghost)

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized IN THE NAME OF THE LORD (Which happens to be Jesus)

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. (this absolutely precedes the Holy Ghost in this setting)

Receiving the Holy Ghost is not being baptized in the name of Jesus.

Rom.6 We are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him...

If you're not buried with Him in baptism then you are not nor can be risen with Him in newness of life.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

chevyssbowtie,

Heb 9:22 "without shedding of blood is NO remission."

Mat 9:2 "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their FAITH sins be forgiven thee." (where's the water?)

Mark 2:5 "When Jesus saw their FAITH, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." (where's the water?)

Luke 5:20 "And when he saw their FAITH, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee." (where's the water?)

Luke 7:48 "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven." (where's the water?)

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (where's the water?)

The point is, only God can forgive sins (Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21). Many Catholics, for instance, baptized as babies or people who get water-baptized are not forgiven of their sins by water. If they don't have FAITH in the shed blood of the Lamb, confess their sins and repent, they are not forgiven.

In the Old Testament (i.e. Lev 5:17-19) a 'guilt offering' was provided to the Priest, who would sacrifice that offering and make Atonement for them, whereby they were forgiven. No water was involved. We have the Sacrifice - the Lamb. We have the High Priest - Jesus Christ, who made Atonement for us. We have forgiveness because He is God, who alone forgives sin.

FOR BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES (WORKS). IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST." (Eph 2:8-9)

Water-baptism is an ordinance, but whether one is baptized in water or not does not constitute salvation or lack of salvation. Baptism of FIRE is what we are to receive, accomplished by FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST until He comes.


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

Heb 9:22 "without shedding of blood is NO remission."

- Exactly right, and God applies His blood to a persons record when they repent and are baptized in Jesus' name. This is how God designed it for the Church. Not under the Law

Mat 9:2 Mark 2:5 Luke 5:20 Luke 7:48 Luke 23:43

- All these references in the gospels are during the time under the law, under the law there was no requirement for baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ". The law remained in effect until the Church was born.

Baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ would become a requirement once the Church was born, which happened in Acts 2. From the time the Church was born until God takes the Church home baptism in Jesus' Name will remain a requirement for salvation.

It is "for the remission of sins"

"The point is, only God can forgive sins (Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21). Many Catholics, for instance, baptized as babies or people who get water-baptized are not forgiven of their sins by water. If they don't have FAITH in the shed blood of the Lamb, confess their sins and repent, they are not forgiven."

- I agree, only God can forgive sins, this isn't about who can forgive sins, this is about when God remits our sins.

And Peter said it in Acts 2:38 like Jesus told him to in Luke 24:47

Jesus "and that repentance AND remission of sins should be preached His name beginning at Jerusalem"

Peter in Jerusalem "Repent, AND be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

That is repentance AND baptism in His name to get sins remitted.

"In the Old Testament (i.e. Lev 5:17-19) a 'guilt offering' was provided to the Priest, who would sacrifice that offering and make Atonement for them, whereby they were forgiven. No water was involved. We have the Sacrifice - the Lamb. We have the High Priest - Jesus Christ, who made Atonement for us. We have forgiveness because He is God, who alone forgives sin."

- This fact does not mean that baptism in water in Jesus' name is not necessary for the NT Church.

"Water-baptism is an ordinance, but whether one is baptized in water or not does not constitute salvation or lack of salvation. Baptism of FIRE is what we are to receive, accomplished by FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST until He comes."

- True we must receive the Holy Ghost but this fact does not mean that baptism in water in Jesus' name is not necessary for the NT Church.

The scriptures your posting from the NT are in there along with the ones am pointing out, they go hand in hand, but they do not make baptism in water in Jesus' name unnecessary.

Only God forgives sins, only God remits sins, and God is showing through His word that He remits sins through our obedience of being baptized in His name coupled with repentance.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Did you know Jesus was baptized in water under the Law? Was He baptized in His own name? The Jews perform what is called 'mikveh' (water-baptism) and do not let even three days go by without baptizing themselves (yes, they are not to be touched by another person), as they trust in water to cleanse them? Are we no better than they, to put our trust in water? Or do we put our trust in the NAME (which means character/reputation) of Jesus Christ?

Did you know Mat 28:19 was changed by the Catholic wolves in sheep's clothing?

"The Baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the 2nd century (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 2, pg 263)". In fact, this verse never contained anything about baptism. They blasphemed by changing the words of Jesus Christ! Jesus said, "Go into all the world and teach [make disciples of] all nations in My name." This is why the word 'name' in Mat 28:19 is singular, while the RCC inserted three titles - nice way to leave out His name! If we even look at Mark 16:15-16, this passage does not clarify whether Jesus is speaking of water or fire.

The fact is, Jesus did NOT baptize anyone in water John 4:2 "(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)."

Likewise, Paul said in 1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ did NOT send me to baptize [obviously referring to water - ref. Acts 19:6 where he baptized in the Spirit by the laying on of hands (remember, mikveh does not permit touching by anyone)], but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void." If baptism were a requirement of salvation, and Paul wrote over half of the New Testament, don't you think he would have been baptizing everyone he witnessed to?

Water baptism was unto REPENTANCE, not for forgiveness of sins. By two or three witnesses is any Truth to be established (Deut 19:15; 2 Cor 13:1).

Look at even Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "REPENT, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Let's look at two more 'witnesses' (thus, we have three):

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for REPENTANCE, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Acts 19:4 "Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of REPENTANCE, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'"

There is more in my hub "John and Jesus - About Baptism" for anyone who would like to delve into this subject more:

http://judahsdaughter.hubpages.com/h

If we add anything to the requirement of salvation other than faith in God our Savior and what He did for us on the cross, that He rose again on the third day, trusting in His righteousness and holiness imputed to us because of this, we have added to the gospel of salvation by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9). Truly, our faith will be tested by the baptism of Fire - either destroyed by the Fire because our faith was not genuine, or purified and strengthened by it. A person may have been baptized in water and yet not survive the baptism of Fire. They will not endure.

It is horrendous to tell a person, as some denominations do - that if you were not water-baptized you are not saved and are going to hell. If someone comes to faith on his/her death bed and cannot get water-baptized, and thus are told such a horrendous, demonic doctrine, may the one who said such a thing be severely disciplined by the LORD.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I would like to address Act 10:47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

Here's a question for you, chevyssbowtie: Must a person be forgiven of their sins before they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? If you take Acts 2:38 and set an order of events here, which I feel you have done (since you say water-baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins), your interpretation certainly contradicts Acts 10:37: "Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" So, they are to 1) repent and be baptized 2) baptism remits/forgives their sins and 3) they will THEN receive the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10:47 believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water-baptized. They must have repented in order to have been forgiven - and because of repentance and forgiveness, they were given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Water-baptism followed as an ordinance of obedience, which is why we do this today. This does not show it's necessary for salvation. What - do you think if they did not get water-baptized God would have taken away their forgiveness and His gift of the Holy Spirit? I think not.


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

"Did you know Jesus was baptized in water under the Law? Was He baptized in His own name?"

~ Yes I know Jesus was baptized under the law, and no He was not baptized in His own name nor any name.

~ I never implied that water is the cleansing agent for sins. the water is nothing but water, but to be baptized "In The Name of Jesus" is to be done in water, so water is the element we use to be spiritually buried, saying "in the name of Jesus Christ" at the time someone is baptized is what initiates the remitting of sins.

"Did you know Mat 28:19 was changed by the Catholic wolves in sheep's clothing?"

~ Whether this is true or false is imaterial, the facts are still in the book of Acts that the apostles did carry out the command to baptize "in the name Jesus Christ" and that is the claim you said was not carried out by the apostles.

"The fact is, Jesus did NOT baptize anyone in water John 4:2 "(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)."

~ I never claimed Jesus baptized anyone

"Likewise, Paul said in 1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ did NOT send me to baptize [obviously referring to water - ref. Acts 19:6 where he baptized in the Spirit by the laying on of hands (remember, mikveh does not permit touching by anyone)], but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void." If baptism were a requirement of salvation, and Paul wrote over half of the New Testament, don't you think he would have been baptizing everyone he witnessed to?"

~ This is not obviously referring to water.

~ Paul NEVER baptized in the Spirit. NO ONE can give the Holy Ghost except Jesus. Just because someone receives the Spirit when a preacher lays hands on them does NOT mean that preacher gave the Spirit nor baptized with the Spirit, this is false.

~ And Paul also admitted that he did baptize folks, and he was qualified to do so.

1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, (Corinthians) but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:..

Also Paul did baptize those in Acts 19 in the name of the Lord, THEN AFTER THAT they received the Holy Ghost.

"don't you think he would have been baptizing everyone he witnessed to?"

~ And Absolutely No, places he preached many times already had a pastor over them and they could do the baptizing, or he ordained elders to take over that could do it.

"Water baptism was unto REPENTANCE, not for forgiveness of sins. By two or three witnesses is any Truth to be established (Deut 19:15; 2 Cor 13:1)."

~ Yes before the Church was born it was unto repentance, but after the Church was born baptism in water "In the Name of Jesus Christ" is "For The Remission of Sins"

"Look at even Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "REPENT, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

~ You just said baptism is not for forgiveness of sins, then your own version of the Bible contradicts your words right there in Acts 2:38 "...Peter said to them, repent, AND ...BE BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins"

So according to your Bible baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

"Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for REPENTANCE, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

~ Again this was under the law, not the during the NT Church, and therefore baptism In The Name of Jesus Christ was not yet instituted nor necessary. Baptism in Jesus' name is for the NT Church.

So show me the scriptures AFTER the Church was born that prove baptism "in Jesus' name" is not necessary.

"Acts 19:4 "Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of REPENTANCE, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'"

~ And after Paul told them this they got baptized in the name of Jesus. Then AFTER THAT they received the Holy Ghost.

2 Separate experiences.

Also this took place after the Church had been born.

"If we add anything to the requirement of salvation other than faith in God our Savior and what He did for us on the cross, that He rose again on the third day, trusting in His righteousness and holiness imputed to us because of this, we have added to the gospel of salvation by grace through faith and not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8-9). Truly, our faith will be tested by the baptism of Fire - either destroyed by the Fire because our faith was not genuine, or purified and strengthened by it. A person may have been baptized in water and yet not survive the baptism of Fire. They will not endure."

~ The one who added anything to the requirements of salvation was the Savior, He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved.

Or He that believeth and along with being baptized shall be saved.

"It is horrendous to tell a person, as some denominations do - that if you were not water-baptized you are not saved and are going to hell. If someone comes to faith on his/her deathbed and cannot get water-baptized, and thus are told such a horrendous, demonic doctrine, may the one who said such a thing be severely disciplined by the LORD."

~ If a person was on their death bed and decided they wanted to make things right with God and they died before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ , they are lost. It doesn't matter if it sounds cruel to anyone, it's just the way it is.

God is a just God, every person will have their opportunity somewhere in their life to make it right with God whether or not anyone knows about it.

So what appears to us as unfair in this type of situation isn't always as unfair as it seems.

I would like to address Act 10:47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

"Here's a question for you, chevyssbowtie: Must a person be forgiven of their sins before they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? If you take Acts 2:38 and set an order of events here, which I feel you have done (since you say water-baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins), your interpretation certainly contradicts Acts 10:37: "Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" So, they are to 1) repent and be baptized 2) baptism remits/forgives their sins and 3) they will THEN receive the Holy Spirit."

~ Actually I believe it this way, A person repents and God forgives, and they can receive the Holy Ghost right away, since Repentance is the requirement for receiving the Holy Ghost, but Baptism is For the Remission of sins, not for the forgiveness of sins. Although forgiveness and Remission are similar and work very closely together I believe they are different. God forgives us for sins in repentance but then God Remits those sins in water baptism when the Name of Jesus Christ is pronounced over the person.

But repentance and baptism in Jesus' name must work together to be complete, like Jesus said in Luke 24:47 "and that Repentance AND Remission of sins should be preached in His name..."

and Mark 16:16 he that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved...

A believer would repent so theres no need to mention repentance here.

"What - do you think if they did not get water-baptized God would have taken away their forgiveness and His gift of the Holy Spirit? I think not."

~ I agree, God would not take away their forgiveness but there sins would not be remitted.


Newbie 3 years ago

Yes we do need to be baptized to be saved


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Newbie - how many LORDs are there? How many FAITHs? How many BAPTISMs? Eph 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - so, yes BAPTISM NOW SAVES US - and which BAPTISM is that?

Mat 10:22 "The one who is water-baptized is saved." NO. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." So, we've covered the BAPTISM by JESUS HIMSELF, which is that of the Holy Spirit and [kai = even, also, namely] FIRE. I would say the ONE BAPTISM is that of FIRE - for by it our FAITH is TRIED, and those who are truly SAVED will ENDURE to the END.

If you want to claim WATER-BAPTISM saves us - then you have NULLIFIED the other, the BAPTISM by JESUS Himself. There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH and ONE BAPTISM. Choose one or the other.

Amen.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

chevyssbowtie, You said, “Baptism is for the remission of sins, not for the forgiveness of sins. Although forgiveness and remission are similar and work very closely together I believe they are different.”

I pulled out my Strong's Concordance and looked up the word Forgive and Remit – Guess what – in every verse of the New Testament they are the very same Greek Word #863 (verb). Remission/Forgiveness (noun) is 859. You’re claiming God forgives sin, thus the people could receive the Holy Spirit before water-baptism, but doesn’t remit sins until they are water-baptized. So you believe past sins are forgiven, in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but future sins are remitted because they were water-baptized, but not so if they are not water-baptized?

Where do you come up with this doctrine? Luke 24:7 speaks of REPENTANCE and REMISSION, which is the same thing as REPENTANCE and FORGIVENESS.

You obviously misunderstood what I stated about Mat 28:19. I did not say the Apostles did not baptize in the name of Jesus. I said that Mat 28:19 was altered to claim Jesus gave a command to baptize in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (three Titles – no name of Jesus) – THIS is what the Apostles did NOT do all throughout the New Testament. When they baptized, it was in the Name of Jesus.

You said, “I never claimed Jesus baptized anyone.” So what was it we were to look forward to, according to John the water-baptizer? Mat 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with WATER for REPENTANCE, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU with the Holy Spirit and fire.” So it is JESUS HIMSELF who would be baptizing the New Testament Church. Do you see I the word REPENTANCE in Mat 3:11 in regard to water-baptism? – you seemed to miss that in Acts 2:38, and decided “REPENT and be BAPTIZED” wasn’t consistent with the other scriptures that show water-baptism to be that of REPENTANCE (Mat 3:11; Acts 19:4) – you believe that the baptism of water before Christ’s death meant something different than it does after Christ’s death.

Where do you come up with this doctrine?

As I just said to Newby above, how many baptisms are there? Eph 4:5 tells me there is ONE LORD and likewise, there is ONE FAITH and only ONE BAPTISM. If you want to say there are TWO BAPTISMS, then there must be TWO LORDS and TWO FAITHS.

You agreed that since Paul was not sent to baptize, yet laid hands on the believers in Acts 19:6 that “This is not obviously referring to water.” Later, you said Paul re-baptized those Ephesian believers in water in the name of the Lord Jesus (thus, you appear to contradict yourself). Where do you see water in Acts 19:5-6 (these verses go together because of the conjunction ‘AND’)? “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.” You don’t believe the Holy Spirit is given by the laying on of hands? If you read into what I wrote as though Paul was the GIVER of the Holy Spirit, you misunderstood.

Let’s take a look at Acts 8:16-18 “For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money…” We’ve already established that the giving of the Holy Spirit can happen BEFORE water-baptism, so water is not a prerequisite.

Why do pastors lay their hands on people to baptize them in water? Seems to me, there is a great misunderstanding of Scripture. Remember, as I said, the method of water-baptism (the mikveh) was that no one could touch the one baptizing themselves. Look it up. Jesus was a JEW. Where in Scripture did the methodology change? I don’t see any passage in the gospels where Jesus commanded the Apostles baptize in water (Mat 28:19 is a forgery). They were all Jews and chose to follow Christ – we don’t see that they were baptized throughout the gospels. No doubt, they mikveh’d themselves according the Law (and often) and it appears to me the custom (tradition) of water-baptism carried over into the New Testament Church.

Consider when Jesus washed Peter’s feet and Peter wanted his whole body washed. What was Jesus’ response? John 13:10 “Yeshua said to him, “He who is bathed does not need to wash except HIS FEET ONLY, for he is WHOLLY clean.”

Regarding Paul baptizing people, this could be referring to water or the laying on of hands. Technically, we don’t see the word water in any of the passages regarding Paul’s baptizing. We only see the laying on of hands, specifically in Acts 19:5-6, which shows that John’s baptism wasn’t enough. In Acts 8:16-18 water-baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus wasn’t enough. This could not be the ONE BAPTISM required for salvation, then, could it?

You said, “The one who added anything to the requirements of salvation was the Savior, He that believeth AND IS baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 6:16) And Jesus baptizes with what? Water? Or the Holy Spirit and Fire? Jesus was mikveh’d in water (according to the Law). Consider He kept the entire law to fulfill it, and thus we should understand Mat 3:13-15 “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he suffered him." He was later baptized by FIRE – trials and afflictions, as shown in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50.

You said, “If a person was on their death bed and decided they wanted to make things right with God and they died before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, they are lost. It doesn't matter if it sounds cruel to anyone, it's just the way it is.” Again, you’ve put a requirement on the New Testament Church, who has been freed from the Law of works for righteousness, that the Old Testament believers didn’t have, who were under the Law of works for righteousness. Tell me how all those in Heb 11 were saved, even the Thief on the cross? What part of Eph 2:8-9 do you not understand?


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

~ I believe once a persons sins are forgiven then they are baptized "in the name of Jesus" those sins are remitted. Baptism with the name Jesus pronounced is when and where God applies the blood of Jesus to a persons record, from then on if they sin again then repent correctly the blood that was already applied will continue to wash them.

Meaning once a person is baptized in Jesus' name the blood is applied to their life, if they sin all they have to do is repent and that once applied blood will wash them again. Not needing to be baptized another time.

"Where do you come up with this doctrine? Luke 24:7 speaks of REPENTANCE and REMISSION, which is the same thing as REPENTANCE and FORGIVENESS."

~ Not the same, very related but not the same, I don't care what Mr. strong says.

"You obviously misunderstood what I stated about Mat 28:19. I did not say the Apostles did not baptize in the name of Jesus. I said that Mat 28:19 was altered to claim Jesus gave a command to baptize in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (three Titles – no name of Jesus) – THIS is what the Apostles did NOT do all throughout the New Testament. When they baptized, it was in the Name of Jesus."

~ First the name [singular] is not referring to the titles, its referring to the name Jesus. Because Jesus is the name [singular] of the Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost.

~ Mat 28:19 does say to baptize in the "name" [singular] and the apostles understood that the "name" of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost is Jesus. That is why they baptized using in the "name" of Jesus. And that lines up with the word of God, so its fine the way it is.

~I never once said nor implied that the apostles baptized using those titles. In fact I was always careful to make it pointed that they baptized using the name Jesus.

~ John did not baptize in Jesus' name, john baptized before Jesus started His ministry so baptism "in Jesus name" was not yet established.

~ Johns baptism could not forgive nor remit sins because John baptized before Jesus shed His blood. That is precisely why those disciples in Acts 19 were re-baptized in the name of The Lord Jesus, after they found out their baptism was not sufficient for remitting their sins.

So yes, baptism in water before Jesus died was different than it is for the Church.

"You agreed that since Paul was not sent to baptize, yet laid hands on the believers in Acts 19:6 that “This is not obviously referring to water.” Later, you said Paul re-baptized those Ephesian believers in water in the name of the Lord Jesus (thus, you appear to contradict yourself). Where do you see water in Acts 19:5-6 (these verses go together because of the conjunction ‘AND’)? “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. AND when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.” You don’t believe the Holy Spirit is given by the laying on of hands? If you read into what I wrote as though Paul was the GIVER of the Holy Spirit, you misunderstood.

~ No, I showed that Paul did baptize people, he himself said he did in 1 Cor.1:14 "I thank God that I baptized none of you, (Corinthians) but Crispus and Gaius;

V16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:

~ Acts 19 doesn't need to mention water, because when it says "they were baptized in the name of The Lord Jesus" that means they were baptized in water. That is how a person gets baptized in Jesus' name.

There is no other way to be baptized in Jesus' name.

~ You're right Acts 19:5-6 do go together, in verse 5 they were baptized in Jesus' name then AFTER they were baptized in Jesus' name they received the Holy Ghost, showing 2 separate experiences.

They are not one and the same experience.

"Let’s take a look at Acts 8:16-18 “For He [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money…” We’ve already established that the giving of the Holy Spirit can happen BEFORE water-baptism, so water is not a prerequisite.

~ I never said baptism in water is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost, but I did say that repentance is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Ghost.

And that very verse ought to show you that baptism "in the name Jesus" happened as a separate experience from the receiving of the Holy Ghost.

1 They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (way before Peter and John came to them)

2 They received the Holy Ghost (AFTER Peter and John Came to them )

That is clearly 2 separate experiences.

~ It does not matter how they were baptized in the gospels because the gospels were a period of time under the law not the NT Church.

~ This mikveh has no place in the NT Church.

"You said, “If a person was on their death bed and decided they wanted to make things right with God and they died before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, they are lost. It doesn't matter if it sounds cruel to anyone, it's just the way it is.” Again, you’ve put a requirement on the New Testament Church, who has been freed from the Law of works for righteousness, that the Old Testament believers didn’t have, who were under the Law of works for righteousness. Tell me how all those in Heb 11 were saved, even the Thief on the cross? What part of Eph 2:8-9 do you not understand?"

~ Again you are bringing up people under the law, where baptism in the name of Jesus was not a requirement. The requirements under the law are not the same requirements as the NT Church.

That is why the thief on the cross could be saved without baptism.

The NT Church came into existence in Acts 2, that is when the Church was born, not during Jesus' days, but after His ascension.

And baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not a work, it is obedience to His command and is "for the remission of sins" and without it your sins are not remitted.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

chevyssbowtie, In regard to Forgive/Remit, Greek 863 you said, “~ Not the same, very related but not the same, I don't care what Mr. strong says.” This shows your error.

863 aphíēmi I remit, forgive (from 575 /apó, "away from" and hiēmi, "send") – properly, send away; release (discharge).

It’s good you know the NAME [onoma -character/reputation] of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit = He Alone is the One, True God. If we go back to Exodus 3:5, just after God tells Moses in vs. 14, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you”, He said “Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, YHWH the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me unto you: this is My NAME forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.” Now, let us ponder what SAVED the Israelites from the Angel of death - the BLOOD of a LAMB on their DOORPOSTS. What saves us to this day? The Blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of our hearts! (Rev 3:20)

So, “I AM” reveals the GOD named “YHWH”. Thus, Yehushua/Yeshua (YHWH is Salvation, aka Jesus) clearly revealed who He IS to those who are His:

John 6:19-20 “So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. But He saith unto them, ‘Do not be afraid, I AM.’” (see the Greek)

John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.” [He] was inserted.

John 8:58 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.”

So, we know the NAME of GOD is YHWH (Spirit); Yehushua (Jesus).

Now, since YHWH said in Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is NO saviour.” And in Hosea 13:4 He said, “Yet I am YHWH thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO god but Me: for there is NO saviour beside Me”, let us observe the following passages:

Joel 2:32 “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be delivered [saved].”

Acts 2:21 “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved.”

Romans 10:9 “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as YHWH, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (ref. John 2:19)

Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of YHWH shall be saved.”

Abraham is called the ‘father of FAITH’ for a reason. Pre-Mosaic Law; salvation by FAITH. Hebrews 11 shows us all the patriarchs of the FAITH, before and during the Law; however no Law is mentioned in Hebrews 11, for “the Law is not of FAITH (Gal 3:12), and without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.” (Heb 11:6)

The New Covenant Church is called “Abraham’s Offspring”, once again saved by FAITH (Gal 3:29). The LAW was added because of transgression (Gal 3:19) and was not made for the righteous, but the lawless (1 Tim 1:9). There is no NEW REQUIREMENT to SALVATION. YHWH is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 22:13). He is the only Way and is the only One who will SAVE us by FAITH.

How do we know this? Heb 9:26 “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the CONSUMMATION of the AGES [Old and New] He has been manifested to PUT AWAY SIN by THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.”

He Alone is the Living Water (John 7:38) – no earthly water will PUT AWAY SIN (forgive/remit). He Alone washes His Bride with the Water of the Word. We need no ‘agency’ of Moses or of physical water. There is only ONE Mediator [Agency] between God and man, the MAN, Yeshua Ha Mashiach, the Great I AM, the ONLY SAVIOR. Jesus PAID IT ALL.


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

~ Again I never claimed water is the agent that will put away sins.

It is still a requirement to use water for us to be baptized in His name, in which during that moment of time is when God remits our sins. It is there that God applies the blood of Jesus.

This is the NT Church way to have your sins remitted.

It was not the way before Acts 2, but since Acts 2 it has been is now and will continue to be the way until Jesus takes the Church out of this world.

All your quotes and scriptures are absolutely twisted to diminish what the Word says. You are the one taking away from the Word of God by telling people that baptism in water in the name of Jesus is not a requirement for salvation.

None of your scriptural arguments nullify water baptism in Jesus' name, it's still in the book. The apostles did that way.

You often bring up scriptural examples from under the law that do not apply to the NT Church, such as Johns baptism, which cannot forgive/remit sins, because the blood of Christ was not at that time shed for the remission of sins.

Faith and calling on the name of The Lord are a part of the plan of salvation but those things without baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ leaves a persons sins un-remitted, you MUST be baptized in Jesus' name "For the Remission of Sins" and being baptized in Jesus' name takes place only in water. And only in baptism in water in Jesus' name is where God applies the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the living water, meaning the Holy Ghost, but that is not the baptism in Jesus' name.

Faith alone does not save, he that has faith AND IS baptized shall be saved.

For a person to repent they must believe and if they truly believe they will repent, so he that repents and is baptized shall be saved.

Faith and calling on the name of Jesus goes along with repentance and baptism.

Baptism in water in the name of Jesus is:

Being buried with Christ into death, and he that is dead is freed from sin.

Is putting on Christ.

Being planted together in the likeness of His death.

(And IF we have been planted together in the likeness of His death THEN we shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

From baptism (burial) we rise to walk in newness of life.

Without baptism you are not buried with Christ.

Without baptism you have not put on Christ.

Without baptism you are not buried with Him into His death.

Without baptism you are not crucified with Him.

Without baptism (burial) you cannot rise to walk in newness of life.

Only people that are truly dead to sin have no problem being baptized (buried) in water in the name of Jesus. Those that resist baptism are not dead and need to repent and die to sin.


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Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

chevyssbowtie, You said, “Again I never claimed water is the agent that will put away sins.”

You have refused to accept that forgiveness and remission is the same thing. You claim that the blood of Jesus is NOT applied without water-baptism, thus you ARE saying that God forgives sin without applying the shed blood of the Lamb. FALSE. Let’s apply your false doctrine to those who received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water-baptized in Acts 10:47 – they were not washed in the Blood? They were forgiven without the Blood? The Holy Spirit can ONLY indwell a holy vessel. How were they made holy?

Hebrews 10:4 states, “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” So, why the blood of the Lamb of God? To take away sins (Rom 11:27)

You said, “Faith and calling on the name of The Lord are a PART of the plan of salvation, but those things WITHOUT baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ leaves a person’s sins un-remitted.” Again, unforgiven people received the Holy Spirit? You avoided answering my question earlier – According to Eph 4:5, how many LORDs do we have? How many FAITHs? How many BAPTISMs? You have accepted that there is only ONE LORD, and probably wouldn’t argue that there is only ONE FAITH…however, you REFUSE to accept there is only ONE BAPTISM, the Baptism of FIRE and the Holy Spirit, accomplished by Jesus Christ Himself. You have ordained TWO baptisms as required for salvation – or is it just the water-baptism that’s required for salvation and not the Spirit-baptism?

You said, “Jesus is the living water, meaning the Holy Ghost, but that is not the baptism in Jesus' name.” Really? If the Living Water is the Holy Spirit, then His Living Water baptizing us points directly to the ONE BAPTISM – that of the Holy Spirit. To put on Christ is to die to the FLESH and live in the SPIRIT, which transforms us into His image – NAME means ‘character/reputation’. To say His Name while being water-baptized is not some magic formula that renews a person; rather to be baptized (fully submersed, engulfed) in His NAME (character), by His Spirit, having our professed faith tried by FIRE is what is required to ENDURE to the END, whereby we are SAVED (Mat 10:22; Rev 21:7). If we do NOT receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we “have the form of godliness, but DENY His Power.” (2 Tim 3:5) Only those who receive His POWER will endure the baptism of FIRE (trials and afflictions).

You said, “Faith alone does not save, he that has faith AND IS baptized shall be saved.” Again, there is only ONE BAPTISM and because this came from the mouth of The Baptizer (Jesus Christ), this baptism in Mark 16:16 is His Baptism – of the Holy Spirit and Fire.

There are only two baptisms in Scripture (John’s and Jesus’), and according to Eph 4:5 there is now only ONE - BAPTISM BY JESUS, which IS being baptized into His death (FLESH) and receiving new life according to the SPIRIT. This is described as the “BORN AGAIN” experience in John 3. In this chapter, Jesus is comparing “that which is BORN of the FLESH” (born of WATER in your mother’s WOMB, not water-baptism) to “that which is BORN AGAIN of the SPIRIT”. To be born again of the SPIRIT one must confess their sin, confess that Jesus Christ is YHWH, believe in their heart that He resurrected from the dead and receive the baptism of His Holy Spirit. It is NOT by any earthly ordinance or work (Eph 2:8-9).

You said, “Only people that are truly DEAD TO SIN have no problem being baptized (buried) in water in the name of Jesus. Those that resist baptism are not dead and need to repent and die to sin.” Here, you are saying that a person is able to die to sin BEFORE being water-baptized. If they are not ‘crucified with Christ’ until they are water-baptized, how can they die to sin before doing so? You contradict yourself, once again.

The point of all my efforts with you is NOT to forbid water-baptism. It is to exhort those who have made the ordinance of water-baptism into an idol, so as to declare a person cannot be saved, if they have not been water-baptized. THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE.


chevyssbowtie 3 years ago

What, no reply? I'm truly disappointed. I actually look forward to your replies. or didn't my last post go thru??


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 3 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hello, chevyssbowtie ~ I've responded to all your posts that I've received ~ if you commented since your previous post, I do not have it...


FarmSchooler profile image

FarmSchooler 2 years ago from Oklahoma

Amen.

Jesus Himself said in Matt 3:15, "Suffer it to be so for now...."

Christ HAD to be baptized w/ water to fulfill the WHOLE law, parts of which were MANY washings, even immersions. The preacher said something today about how word baptism didn't even come into play until the KJV was published. Will have to look

that up.

John said in Matt 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire"

Then Eph 4:4-5 says, "[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism..." If I had to choose water baptism or baptism w/ the Spirit of God....Id pick the Spirit over wet hair any day.

If water baptism were needed as a sign of a transformed life, God would have instructed us to continue this tradition. Rather He says its our new behavior that will speak of the change, as He writes his word on our hearts and immerses us with His spirit when we answer His call. Its not OUR power or OUR works. Modern day water baptism seems to try to make Christs death/burial/resurrection of no account. Voted up.


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Wow, FarmSchooler ~ I very much appreciate your comment. I did a little research on Google about "how the word baptism didn't come into play until the KJV was published" and it appears the word "immersion" was the proper translation; yet, I read also "there are quotations from English works using the words baptize, baptism, and other forms of the word from the following dates: 1200, 1297, 1300, 1325, 1382. The word is used throughout the English Bible translation of Wycliffe completed in 1382. This means that the word "baptize" and its forms were English words long before the 1611 translation."

There were, however, admitted changes to the Textus Receptus by the Catholic Church, which is documented - beginning with Erasmus, so all the later versions included the same corruptions, ending up in our Bibles. Regarding salvation, if we made two baptisms necessary (water and Spirit) Eph 4:4-5 would then be untrue.

The Catholic church mainly practices infant baptism, and so do some of her "Protestant", Harlot daughters. Those who do so "explain" it as equivalent to the circumcision (cleansing) of Hebrew baby boys. We are clearly told that outward circumcision matters not, in fact, it's nearly forbidden by Paul in Gal 5:3. Thus, I interpret this verse to mean, "If you allow yourself to join the Jewish culture and deny Christ"... The point is, Rom 2:29 tells us that "circumcision is of the heart". Baptism into the Spirit of God is also that of the heart - even the keeping of the 10 Words has been brought into the heart ~ "I will write my Law on their hearts." (Mat 5:28; Jer 31:33)

Those who are merely baptized in water and not by the Spirit are not sealed, for water does not seal us (Acts 8:16); the Holy Spirit does (Eph 4:30). They will not survive the fire of afflictions, putting their faith in literal water. We are not purified by water, but by fire (pur is the Greek word, from where we get 'purified').

Praise God for your comment and witness to the Truth. God bless you!


FarmSchooler profile image

FarmSchooler 2 years ago from Oklahoma

I know of a book I want to share with you, but it may take me a while to find it. I promise to get the title back to you though. Im pretty sure you would like it. Not sure its still in print, but is worth pursuing if you can.

Tonite, I was contemplating what Ive learned about Christ having no mother....significant, since the virgin birth is so at the front of Christmas conversations this week. Ran across a page I thought you might appreciate as well. Night for now. http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr...


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi FarmSchooler - I appreciate the thoughtfulness of finding the book you think I would be interested in. I would like to respond regarding "Christ having no mother", as I briefly looked at the link you provided regarding a likeness of Christ in Melchizedek. The KJV words it such that we can have error in our interpretation: "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

However the NLT translates most accurately (remember, the Jews kept stringent genealogy records from Adam and Eve to the present, thus Numbers): "There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors--no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God."

Blessings.


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

Hi Judah's Daughter!

I was raised with the teaching that our salvation is based on the death burial and resurrection of Christ. 1) That DEATH equals stopping your sinful ways, through conviction and confessing/ repentance/ forgiveness 2) BURIAL equals our burying the old man/past/ water baptism/remissions of sins/ clear conscience/public announcement. 3)RESURRECTION is being reborn/spirit baptism/ infilling of the Holy Ghost/anointed tongues Acts 2 1-4 (supernatural outpouring upper room event), 5-37 (Peter's anointed message, he was given the key to the kingdom and preached a convicting message to the crowd outside, saying this was what was prophesied 732 years beforehand by the prophet Joel; and immediately they asked "what shall we do? ) -- 2:38-39 ( his answer to them) Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the (remission) of Sins (Old time Pentecostal preachers declare this is when the name of Jesus is authenticated within you) and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost).

39)"For THIS PROMISE is unto you, and to your children and all that are afar off, even unto the end of the world" ( does that include us? me? you? our children?)

So as Jesus died, so we die a death to sin. Admittedly, Jesus took our sins and our transgressions upon himself and hereby did the "work" of our salvation. ( we cannot duplicate that). So as Jesus was buried and rose from the dead, we are buried symbolically or transitionally through a natural act with a supernatural impact, and we rise, reborn with the the spirit of God in Holy Ghost baptism. By dying now in the spirit realm, we skip the second death. So though we perhaps die a natural death at our appointed time, all that is left for us is Life. (sinners do it the opposite way- they die the natural death, but with an everlasting death to follow.)

We rise in the likeness of his resurrection. As he arose we arise in newness of life. We are spiritually ready to depart from this earth. We still are in a natural body, but the spiritual man inside of us is sanctified, justified and ready for our spiritual body which will be like his on the event of his return. Rapture ready anybody? repentance, baptism and the infilling of the holy spirit. "New birth" was Peter was talking about. verse 39 negates that it was just for a certain limited group.

Yes, JD I certainly do follow and agree with you in the seeming insignificance of the necessity of water baptism.. but dare we tear a page or a dozen out of the Word? I don't. I believe in the Father, I believe in the Son.. I believe in the Holy Spirit.. because I know they are one and the same.. That was settled for me in Deuteronomy 6:4-10? tell it to your children.. put it on the doorpost. Old time preachers declared that you must apply his name through baptism.. put it on the door post of your heart.. That precious name was given me in my baptism and marriage to him, so now would I have not taken his name? (with the church being the "bride" and him being the bridegroom).

In the book of Revelations it mentions those repeatedly who "wear his name". In Italy after Peter finished with Cornelius, ( Acts 10:44-48, after a message by Peter, the Holy Ghost fell, and before it was over those people were baptized with the Holy Ghost and they were water baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.

In Acts nineteen at Paul's request the people of Corinth were re-baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the (remission) of sins just like at Pentecost. (what does that word remission mean?) . I wish that people today were so excited about the gospel that they would do such as this.. instead we look for ways to justify NOT doing so..

With the significance of Acts 4:12 I would not dare use any other name or formula than what it says in that verse. A hint is that IN ALL that you do, Do ALL in the Name of Jesus Christ.

One last thing.. I would love to hear your comments on this. People quickly say, Oh baptism is a unnecessary "work" or arbitrarily, Jesus did it all, so there is nothing you can do once you believe". Repentance is not even taught in some "superchurches". its an extra work or spare tire as well as baptism.. can I remark of my own persuasion, then even your effort to go to church or to kneel before God is a work, and you are just looking for excuses to not follow Gods word..

Living for God is all the things you do to be obedient and to be faithful and to give yourself to God every day with your energy, and of course we know its not our own effort, but that doesn't negate any part of Gods callings and elections.. Do it of conviction, of Love, of compelling obedience, just because he says to!

Also I am persuaded that doctrines of indulgences, (physical payment) and of penance (physical suffering) ARE unnecessary. I hope those that were actually taught those things come to freedom.. come to Light.. come to Jesus, today.


Oscarlites profile image

Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

Hi again! although this isn't my hub; I feel compelled to respond to some of the conversation that preceeded. A caution to Chevie bowtie- one statement that he made is that he prejudged anyone who had no opportunity to be baptized and I feel that is dangerous.. I have always advocated that someone who has not had an opportunity to be baptized or may not have even heard the whole gospel as Peter and Apollos and Paul speak of in Acts, but has made a move toward God, HE is their judge.. he will somehow judge them by what has been revealed to them at the point of their death.. this may be wrong, but it is what I believe and I have a scripture that speaks that who who knows to to good and doeth it not it is sin. that in my mind leaves a lot of latitude for God to judge each individual and each nation, and each era and each church age by what has been revealed to them.. I'm not putting you down, but please don't stand up as anyone's judge.. as you even said, Its god who baptizes us, so why can't he judge us as well..

Yes, Judahs Daughter.. you have been really fair in your argument that the formula was changed.. I think that went over Chevys head.. I do think though that remission equals washing away those sins that are forgiven. Repentence is our side of it. Forgiveness and remission is Gods side of it. They must have separate implications however, as I read both sides of your comments. But yes it appears very clear that you are not despising water baptism.. not at all. Yes, it is true that most early and late evangelists of this past two centuries easily prove that the new birth experience, "promise of the father" started at Pentecost.. or should we say culminated at that date. Jesus at Bethany told them to "go and tarry and wait for the promise of the father.. which was actually Jesus coming back as the comforter.. remember he said If I don't hurry back to heaven the comforter cannot return to you.. Oh what delight in that! a mission was accomplished and another mission was about to begin. The interim period as some call it, between the Law and grace was indeed the period between when Jesus was born and when he ascended.. no, absolutely those people during this time were under special dispensation of grace.. they lived with a combination of the "old" and of the "new" . Just to think that the thief on the cross was told "this day you will be in paradise!" -But Jesus and John and the apostles led through that transition.. Until the promise.. the HOPE that Abraham yearned for in Hebrews 10, had finally come!. he yearned for the promised and they were baptized in the red sea and the desert.. but could not enjoy what we have today..

But no one can come to the father except the Holy spirit draw him: In fact Judahs Daughter, I believe that the knowledge of Jesus and who he is, comes from divine inspiration. The holy spirit bears witness of truth. The scripture says "Except ye believe that I am he, ye will die in your sins.." it may mean more than just what is taught today.. It could also mean unless you believe that Jesus IS the one true GOD. I have been excited to read your articles, for much of what you have I believe is of that same divine inspiration, and certainly I can see its from an intense love for God and desire to know more. I guess that I am more inclined to put emphasis on water baptism, as acts 10:47 says, hey, can any man forbid water? that these should NOT be baptized?.. and in fact it was so important that Phillip in another place was caught up and taken into the desert and after preaching ( it always seemed to follow a message on the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.) well, Phillip asked the Ethiopian "Hey here is much water.. ( in a desert? another miracle?) what hinders you from being baptized?" -- that singular event is so impressive and definitive that it seems that to the Holy Spirit which orchestrated this event; that it was important for this eunuch to be baptized.. not just something that the apostles/disciples were doing on their own..

There is something that stands out to me, in that we are responsible for what we know.. and that God will judge us fairly according to what we know.. it seems out of pocket, so to speak for us to utter harsh judgements or even question hard questions about what about so and so, or what about this age or that age. It seems that god has those matters already handled,and he is trying to get a harvest prepared.. he is looking for willing hands and laborers into the fields which are ready to harvest.. ripe but the fields are empty of laborers.


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Hi Oscarlites ~ I'm thankful you have read the comments here, as so many are under the doctrine of:

Remission (forgiveness) of sins happens when water-baptized; therefore one is not saved if not water-baptized (refuted in Acts 10:44-45; 1 Cor 1:7)

Eph 4:5 declares there to be ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. Joel's prophecy came to pass on the Day of Pentecost and it wasn't about water-baptism, which had been going on during Jesus' ministry, even before His death, burial and resurrection. The promised baptism was that of the Holy Spirit - reference John the Baptist in Mark 1:8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

You have stated correctly, that water-baptism is SYMBOLIC, just as the LORD's supper is symbolic. Jesus took the outward keeping of the 10 Commandments and applied them to the heart. What was physical obedience became spiritual obedience.

If you consider the accounts of water-baptism in the Bible, ALL were believers BEFORE they were water-baptized. This includes those on the Day of Pentecost and in Corinth, who were 'washed by the Water of the Word', believed and were baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they ever set foot in the water. Look at the eunuch! Phillip made sure he was washed by the Word and fully believed BEFORE he was water-baptized. This is why some churches use the term "believer's baptism". Water-baptism does not SAVE or FORGIVE sins. That work is already done by FAITH, prior to water-baptism.

We can look at the multitude of witnesses as to the purpose of water-baptism and see how many times water-baptism is aligned with remission/forgiveness of sins:

Mat 3:6 "and they were being baptized by him [John] in the Jordan River, as they CONFESSED their sins."

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for REPENTANCE, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, "REPENT, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 19:4 "Paul said, 'John baptized with the baptism of REPENTANCE, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.'"

Then we have Trinitarians believing that water-baptism in the name of Jesus saves you, and without it one is not forgiven, thus not saved - so, Church of Christ members get baptized in Jesus' name yet don't even know the One, True God. What difference does it make?

Let's now go over to Acts 15:16 "Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: (For as yet He was fallen upon none of them: ONLY they were [water-] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" Yes, Paul was more concerned about these believers being baptized in the Holy Spirit, for water-baptism made no difference - was not sufficient, was it? Again, there is ONE BAPTISM since the Day of Pentecost and we MUST be born again OF THE SPIRIT. To be first 'born of water' is speaking about the living water of the mother's womb. Satan and angels/demons are NOT born of water.

Jesus was mikveh'd (water-baptized) and yet said to His disciples in Luke 12:50 "I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and I am much afflicted until it is fulfilled.” Likewise, He asked His disciples in Mat 20:22-23 and Mark 10:38-39 "Are you willing to be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" This was NOT talking about H2O.

Abraham was not baptized in water. Those in Heb 11 were not baptized in water. Jews were baptized in water and still do so today (mikveh). Trinitarians are baptized in water, Mormons are baptized in water, all kinds of cult members are baptized in water, putting faith in their ritualistic works without knowing the God who baptizes them with the Living Water, filling them to overflow, Water that washes them clean from the inside out; without knowing the God who baptizes them with fire (trials/afflictions) and the Holy Spirit (the power to overcome).

I could go on and on - I've commented thousands of words here, and yet it will never be enough for anyone who does not understand with the Spirit. May God break our indoctrination of putting our faith in a symbolic practice and rather received His baptism - and there is only ONE.

Here is another article on the difference between water and Spirit-baptism: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/John-and-J...

Many blessings to you, brother.


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Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

I agree that confessing and believing happens prior to water baptism. Don't believe you can use John 3:3-5 to say that water baptism is not necessary. It indeed shows the opposite.. words of Jesus. red print.. ( smiles) Marvel not . Except ye be born of water an of spirit.. how oh foolish can you be thinking you can go back into your mothers womb! you are already born of your mother.. ( I am talking here about being born again of God, born of water and of spirit.what ELSE could he be talking about than water baptism? he is saying.. ).. what an EXCELLENT time to be baptized with that living water, and to have the NAME above every name applied to your life.. Especially Jesus meant that being born again was of death/ dying to the old man.. which Baptism you agree is symbolic of.. and being reborn of the new man, the spirit, a new creature. changed . Newness of Life: No one is saying that the ACT of baptism is circumstantial EXCEPT that it is in OBEDIENCE to the WORD. what was in the the temple? a laver for washing.. a table of shewbread. an altar, candlesticks.. all are types/of the redemption plan.. yes, thank you sir.. Silly man, think, you can go back into the womb? BUT that being said.. I DO believe in the living water .. that JESUS IS that living Water.. we must have that living water.. if you drink of this water ( he said) that I give you , ye shall never thirst again.. No, I don't agree it is the trinitarians that believe use the name of Jesus in baptism.. they use the titles.,. I think you just got mixed up on that.. -- there IS a people who are called by that name and only use that name..ACTS 2:38, and by ACTS 4:12.. there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby you must be saved.. did I get the ref. right? remember dear one.. the urgency of peters message and they cried out what MUST WE DO? then he said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins.. you can bet your bottom shoe leather that they found some water and baptized a bunch of people that day!.. as many as 3120 if my math adds up.. BUT its not intended here to argue..... baptism is literal.. too much evidence.. you too believe in it., just not putting as much significance on it as i might be doing.. but the point of truth IS that it IS as important as JESUS our GOD and Savior declares it to be.. not as much as I or as you declare it to be.. many many many.. were obedient and were baptized.. that is the point.. THEY thought it was important.. not just Jews.. ( btw I might be part Jewish due to an ancestor I've only heard stories about.. its not a bad feeling;)

you can't authoritatively say that water baptism is negated after Jesus was resurrected, for the apostles would surely have said, NO!! skip that step, its NOT necessary anymore!! thousand then were baptized unnecessarily, and I am not willing to go there and denounce that part of the powerful teaching's of post Pentecost. Jesus mentioned it "water and spirit" and YES I SEE how you apply it to only the position of living water, but lets agree he Wasn't talking about going back into the mothers womb.. he cleared that up himself. Jesus did. the point that has been previously made is that baptism WAS significantly different before and after the resurrection. it had a different reason and a different purpose.. IF you state that you accept it at ALL after the resurrection, then you are afloat, for lack of a reason, for the reason that JOHN baptist for was for outward significant of conversion, am I right? and to lead people to Jesus baptism.. no I will never be able to erase or diminish that baptism is a part of salvation. I DO follow you in complete humble acceptance in that believing and repentance come first.. remission is a step that maybe you don't understand like I do, but I see repenting, believing, being forgiven, baptized, and sanctified, and purified,and remissions of sins, washing away of those sins, those sins being truly remitted, taken away and nailed to the cross, and all iniquities of our past never remembered no more. the old man, the carnal man, dead, and buried with him in baptism, 1 peter 1:8? not the washing of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a clear conscience unto God. but Ye are washed ye ARE sanctified through the spirit of our God, and you ARE A new creature.. behold all things are new.. Beloved Now ye are the sons of God. the most pertinent question comes to mind, here, dear Judah's daughter, "why take any of it OUT of the bible?" and why let the pope or any other person take away Jesus sole authority to forgive sins? there is a scripture that meant so much to my mother, and she wrote a poem; "wear his name.".. I promise you the place the Name is applied is preached and practiced, in the original Matthew 28 19, luke 24,45-48, acts 2:38, 10, 19, and 27. the apostle bitten by a viper and spared, asked to preach, said, to this unknown God give I my text.. His name is JESUS.. he preached Jesus birth and Crucifixion, death and burial and glorious resurrection.. and I promise you he taught them the same thing that Peter did.. Peter had been given the key's along with a revelation of who Jesus is.

maybe, what if God DOES want a person to have a physical event and place to remember where he was baptized, even as he was? would that be so wrong? why would we deny that? Thank GOD he did show that it WAS still useful.. maybe we shouldn't debate the whole reasons. YES philipt Got the eunech ready first.. but then he still completed the mission... right? oh I hope you say right..

YES, YES, YES the Holy ghost power.. the resurrection power.. the faith, all is ours.. all is to be sought and experienced, thank you for the teachings.. Lord send a revival and let it start in me., fill me up with your love and set my spirit free.. Yes I love the living water too!


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Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

Hi again.. all the things I wrote simply come from the heart, I believe based upon the word of God. I want to clarify this: what constitutes "being saved?" I noticed your answers search for the importance of this, and I applaud you for that. are we one saved always saved? salvation by grace alone, and nothing for us to do but sit back and wait for the illustrious rapture? By faith alone? Paul said show me your faith and I will show you my faith by my works.. now, of course, he was teaching and making a point that I dare NOT build a doctrine around.. it is by "every word that comes from the mouth of God, right? and here a little there a little.. will I speak to my people.". Of course in 1st Peter it says , the like "figure" as of Noah, does baptism now save us.. but not the washing away of the filth of the flesh ( which might not even mean "sins"), but just merely him saying, don't think you can wash the outward flesh and be saved.. YES YES YES, salvation and cleansing is on the inside. ( well, clean up the inside and it should make a lot of outward changes as well, to start showing spiritual fruit and obedience and works of love and righteousness, right? ok, I'm just adding that you can't erase it, its there,.. it IS a part of the book,and the whole and can't be erased, thrown out, or dark judgements would follow , right? What I'm about to say is that let GOD be true and every man a liar.. ( in every matter where there is contention, disagreement or any thing like this..).. I think after a lifetime of Living for God, making mistakes, tons of study, preaching, enlightenment etc.. all types of denominations, and seminaries who teach differently, I ask are we Really Saved until the final breath? there's a new hub.. ha ha. who are we to do anything but preach the word and let the holy spirit convict the heart.. No man can come unto the Father except the spirit draw him.. and that only through JESUS .. am I correct in saying, One GOD and One lord Jesus Christ.. everyone wants to go to heaven but no one want to die to get there! Seek/ search out you salvation it says with fear and trembling.. I don't dare say someone is saved OR lost.. I can only tell them of the saving grace and forgiveness offered by Our GOD. One or two superchurches conveniently leave out the need even for repenting, or askign forgiveness of those sins we have committed.. JESUS "did it all" you don't have to do ANY of that.. Jesus already did it.. how do you think you can do anything to upgrade, or change that.. but really, will that in the end leave you lost? if you leave the honey on the shelf and never partake of it? never open the lid? never taste it? OH taste and see that the Lord is good.. Psalms 19.. the testimonies, the statutes, the word.. more to be desired are they than gold, than much fine gold. sweeter also than honey.. in the honeycomb.. One must surely apply for this lovely and satisfying life, Nicodemus OH he wanted it so bad.. he came to the Lord by night.. that's why it was so important what Jesus told him.. with that, I must leave it with you, a wonderful hub!

eternal life.. the kingdom of God is like a man who finds a treasure in a field, and anon with joy, goes and sells all that he has, and buys the field, knowing it is the most wonderful possession he could ever find..


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Oscarlites, I love you as my brother and will respond in kind. Before I continue, let me first say I am not teaching people should have an aversion to water-baptism or not partake of believer’s baptism (in water). I am contending the weight various doctrinal theologies place on the work of water-baptism in regard to salvation. In the 10 Commandments, did God include water-baptism, since it’s a matter of spiritual life and death? Did Jesus, when He told us how we fulfill the moral Law, command us to be water-baptized? He said to love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself. When Jesus spoke with Nicodemus in John 3, was He referring to water-baptism? Was Nicodemus water-baptized in that passage or even in the following chapter? Now, let’s continue…

You opened with “I agree that confessing and believing happens prior to water baptism. Don't believe you can use John 3:3-5 to say that water baptism is not necessary. It indeed shows the opposite.. words of Jesus. red print.. “ Well, read verse 6, which sets the context of John 3:3-5: 5 “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Furthermore, show me in John 3 where Nicodemus was baptized by Jesus in water? In fact, John 4:1 explicitly states that Jesus baptized no one in water. AND, the context of Chapter 4 is about Jesus turning water into wine (did you know the root of baptize is bapto, which means to dye/stain?). Is there symbolism in turning mere water into wine? Does water stain or does wine? H20 washes the outward; The Living Water washes the inward man. The wine is symbolic of the BLOOD that cleanses us from all sin. Yes, symbolic of Spiritual Truth. Consider Jesus’ rebuke of the Pharisees in Mat 23:26 about the “cup” being clean on the outside, but filthy on the inside. John chapter 4 also tells us how Jesus ministered about the Living Water to the woman at the well – they were drinking literal water there, weren’t they? Did the woman get baptized in it? Did the Samaritans get baptized in H2O when they believed? You said, “why let the pope or any other person take away Jesus sole authority to forgive sins?” Exactly! The Pope will sprinkle a baby with water, hear the confessed sins of his ‘sheep’ and tell them what they must DO to receive forgiveness – say ## ‘Hail Mary’s’ or pay $$$ to the indulgence fund, light a candle or 100, etc. How often in Scripture did Jesus heal the sick and cause the blind to see by saying, “Thy sins are forgiven thee”? How often did He say, “Thy FAITH has made you well”? Did these get baptized in water to “seal the deal”?

Church of Christ is a literal denomination that believes in the Trinity yet baptizes in Jesus’ name. No, no mistake. Oneness believers are imbalanced in their traditional doctrine/theology when they put such power in water-baptism, believing one’s sins are not forgiven/remitted unless they are water-baptized in Jesus’ name; furthermore, they believe the evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit (a second baptism required for salvation), that one MUST speak in tongues. These are doctrines of error. They have made Acts 2:38 the gospel verse, trumping what Jesus said in John 3:16 (the entire chapters of John 3 and 4). As far as the ONE Baptism Eph 4:5 speaks of, there were not 3,120 people water-baptized on the Day of Pentecost. 120 were believers, up in the upper room. They received the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, the baptism of the Spirit. So did the 3,000 souls, for while Peter was yet speaking (the Water of the Word), they were convicted and believed. We are not told what type of “baptism” they received that day. The One Baptism that was manifest on that specific day was that of the Holy Spirit.

I’ve already covered Paul’s words in 1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.” Why is baptism mentioned in this verse, if it were absolutely necessary for believers? Why don’t we see Nicodemus baptized or the Samaritans? Those whom Jesus healed, forgiving their sins? Why is it that those baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus had not received the Holy Spirit, which obviously WAS necessary to “seal the deal”? See Acts 8:16 and Acts 19:3-5. Did Paul “re-baptize” those in Acts 19 in water? No. Verse 6 states he laid his hands on them. Remember, the mikveh (the correct water-baptism) does not allow for another’s hands to touch the one baptizing themselves. Furthermore, we can go back to Acts 8:16 and read verse 18: “Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money…” Does THIS mean that the Holy Spirit can ONLY be given by the laying on of the Apostles hands? No. Those in Acts 10:44-46 (prior to water-baptism) received the Holy Spirit, just as I believe happened on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

As you quoted 1 Pet 1:8, it should be abundantly clear what true “baptism” does to a believer – “NOT the washing of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a CLEAR CONSCIENCE unto God. but Ye are washed ye ARE sanctified through the spirit of our God, and you ARE A new creature.. behold all things are new…” Do you know what the word “name” means (when we are baptized into His name)? It means “character/reputation”. To PUT ON CHRIST as our robes of white linen (Bridal clothing), prepared for the Wedding Feast. We are to do ALL things in/by His Name (Col 3:17). You sound like a Catholic when you say “Peter was given the keys” – it wasn’t just Peter, the same man whom Satan spoke through, causing Jesus to rebuke Satan; the same man who denied our Savior three times on the night He was betrayed; the same man who LOST his faith and sunk in the water upon which he attempted to walk by faith. And WHAT did Jesus say to Peter then? “Oh ye of little FAITH!”. See, the confession of who Jesus was by Peter was returned with the confession of who Peter was by Jesus. It was this confession of knowing who each other was that exemplified the ROCK upon which the Church would be built – FAITH. What is our goal on the Day of resurrection? To NOT hear the words, “Depart from Me, for I never KNEW you.” Amen.

We have seen that water-baptism under the New Covenant was for repentance of our sinful man. Jesus wasn’t water-baptized for repentance or to “receive the Holy Spirit” which already dwelt fully IN Him, nor was it to be “born again”. He was mikveh’d under the LAW and also because John was told he would see the sign of the Spirit in the form of a dove (God’s Spirit is omnipresent) to KNOW who Jesus was (1 John 5:20).

The remainder of my comment, addressing your second of the two comments above, is below.


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

(continued from above to Oscarlites):

Once we are TRULY SAVED, we do not lose our salvation, for we are BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit and have the POWER to ENDURE. Jesus said “The one who ENDURES to the end shall be saved/delivered.” (Mat 10:22) Jesus said, “He who OVERCOMES will inherit all this, and I will be His God and he shall be My son.” (Rev 21:7). See, those who profess salvation that simply have the “form of Godliness”, but “DENY its POWER” (2 Tim 3:5) are those who have not been SEALED (Eph 4:30). They do not have the POWER to overcome, and they will NOT overcome the baptism of FIRE (trials/afflictions) when that time comes, and will either discover they MUST be BORN OF THE SPIRIT (born again) and yield to His infilling, or fall away. It is the test of FIRE that will distinguish between the sheep and the goats. It will either prove/purify our FAITH or it will consume us. There’s a difference between the professing and the confessing 'Christian', amen. We agree and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (YHWH) and no one can say ‘JESUS is LORD (YHWH)’ except by the Holy Spirit (Rom 10:9; 1 Cor 12:3).

Faith without works is dead (Jam 2:20, 26), just as works without faith is dead, Amen. We obey the voice of the LORD, just as Abraham did – and that is in EVERYTHING we do at ALL times (Col 3:17). It’s not just about step 1-5 to get “saved” and His grace will excuse you practicing abominations such as homosexual relations, even the abominations of the Catholic Church (including pagan holidays – we WILL be shown the Truth about these things, if we are BORN OF THE SPIRIT). Habit and indoctrination is only able to be BROKEN by the Holy Spirit, providing the "horse" is willing. Ah, the old adage "You can lead a horse to Water, but you can't make him drink" comes to mind.

Yes, we NEED to preach the WORD (accurately handling the dividing/interpretation of it), and speak by the Spirit of God Who will WASH with the WATER of His WORD and BAPTIZE those who believe with it! JESUS IS THE BAPTIZER and there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, just as there is ONLY ONE LORD and ONLY ONE FAITH (Eph 4:5).

We share in the love for the Truth of God’s Word and each have a genuine heart of love for our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. And because of that we desire to please Him, and we have His heart to preach the Good News of the GOSPEL to everyone everywhere (Jesus Christ, God come in the flesh, Who shed His own blood for the remission of our sins (Acts 20:28); Jesus Christ who was crucified, buried and resurrected on the third day, appearing to those who believe; Jesus Christ who ascended into the heavens, Who is the Power of God, come to us in Spirit baptism, to fill us to overflow and give us His POWER to hear His voice, do His will and overcome to the end), whereby we ARE SAVED. Amen.


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Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

I guess I am not familiar with the Church of Christ teachings, although I knew they are trinity. I have not met anyone in my life so far that is trinity that baptizes in the specific name of Jesus. I have heard of some that quote " in the name of the father, son and holy ghost, which is Jesus Christ." what IS important is that people know and use the Name of Jesus, in every thing they do, including when they are baptized. I am a believer as well of the "holy ghost and fire", please don't leave me out. I just cannot wipe away the significance/ purpose of water baptism. I believe Nicodemus was baptized the same way that the early church was baptized and that was using the name of Jesus Christ, and by being immersed in water by one of the disciples, which though some were baptized under John the baptist and between actual covenant's ( old and new); when the new covenant messages were preached, starting at Pentecost, water baptism was a standard practice/belief, and I don't dare remove these most basic teachings of the early church. the same encyclopedias you used earlier bear this out that baptism was practiced by the early church by immersion, for this was recorded as the point of contention after Tertullian/Constantine/ 100-325 AD era, over which method or formula was used. It was never eradicated, or removed as part of the salvation process. I carefully yet urgently state that these departures from water baptism didn't happen until this last century, with convenience doctrines and streamlined exemptions from almost all of the original teachings. ie.. holy ghost at saying " I believe in Jesus Christ". ( the devils also believe) and I cor 13 Gifts intended for the already saved and holy ghost filled church, being superimposed to those who were not. that you automatically have all these gifts without the book of acts conversion/ baptism/infilling and the precise that it ALL comes automatic. ie.. repeat this after me and you are saved, "easy believism doctrine". All is grace and nothing is required. I'm just not sure how much of the black and white of the Word is useless today. Not much need to read OR believe its full operation. A LOT could be said here, ( a babe is not ready for strong meat?) ( those who Paul said HAVE so soon departed from the faith!) I KNOW I need to read and study the word more. To pray more.. to believe more! to DO more! as I ponder back over my past, I have heard many say "oh I know I am saved because my name is on the church role"; or "I was "saved at a K----- C---- crusade, and oh, he said it was ok to smoke, as long as it was out in back of the tents." but too often I have heard, "oh I got saved listening to B------G------- and repeating a prayer after him; but now I don't even believe, because nothing changed, and all that I thought was suppose dot happen never did. There is a lot of well intended but powerless teachings.. BUT I KNOW there is a supernatural and life changing experience to those who seek it.. to those who are the called. to those who fall on their faces and confess their sins, followed by obedience to Jesus word. I WILL ease off the subject as you believe some combination of spiritual baptism only, and that baptism is no longer required. ( at least in water using the "right" name of which you know. ) At least on that we are agreed. I DO know that the Holy ghost is able to lead and guide use into all truth. Even in a pigpen of prodigal rebellion, he is able to speak. Even in a hell hole of modern entertainment, where lust and greed and gambling and drunkenness prevails he is able to speak to those he has called. He reaches beyond our limitations and our handicaps and our ignorance. HE is and always will be the Mighty one, the El-shaddia. When I was young I heard of Bethel, a place where Gods peace flows from above. and of Shiloh, my personal place that belongs to me. GOD is abundant in mercies, and his love everlasting. HE DOES bring judgement, but at this time his hand is stayed/stopped by the Love and mercy. US having been grafted in, perhaps as wild olives, and his mercy because they refused, He DOES take away our sins.. WE HAVE obtained mercy because of their unbelief; There is no doubt you MUST believe in this Salvation. Even some of the Jews have received and been grafted BACK in, as natural branches because they have now believed: but in part blindness has set them apart, yet a "deliver has come out of Sion". Oh the depth, how unsearchable, and his ways past finding out. HE says take heed lest you think you know it all, or lest you fail in some count of unbelief. Water is so useful today, and not that I can, or even want to change your belief's on it (that's the Holy spirits business, right?) I don't feel he is through with it, or with using it, It is important to him, and if for no other reason, to understand the cleansing that takes place within. WhAT if we were to go to another planet, and indeed we may have already done that in the spiritual, but someone comes to us and says, here! drink of this water!.. and hands us a cup; and we look, and see nothing, and then curiously reach our finger into the cup, and feel no water.. but our host says, no, there is no actual water there, but go ahead and drink it, it has some soothing effect to imagine you are drinking this water, at least you can remember what it used to taste like.. that would be powerless and unsatisfying to say the least.. and not useful. it would be a simple charade. FOR wahtever purpose, I feel that if you don't believe his own word on this, that you wold never believe mine, but I also feel that he is NOT through with us in the natural until we are transfigured into the final state, and he is still using water to fulfill his word, especially in this so important act of baptism.. from a child my mother showed me that baptism is a water/spirit thing. she DID teach One Lord one faith one baptism. but that baptism is two parts, dealing with the old sinful man first and then the spiritual man.. that if a grain of wheat ( how does it go?) fall in the ground and die, it shall live and bring forth fruit in its season. AS to its importance in salvation, can I please say, "I'm gonna be baptized!" please don't stop me from being baptized!" I've heard it taught by the apostle Paul, by Peter, by Ananias, By Cornelius and many more. Even if it is simply an Act of faith and obedience. Please don't tell my simple mind that I should ignore this, or spiritualize it. I have all the rest that you speak of. I HAVE been in special places of visitation by angels, and by the voice of GOD and prophetic word, and through life changing visions, and being awakened and spoken to about certain situations, and with profound and unexpected results. Once shown that a man in our midst had two natures and I saw that one side of this man had evil, and the other side was posed as good. incidentally this man was of orthodoxy background and repeatedly refused the Holy spirit baptism. Oh how dangerous when someone refuses the Holy Spirit, or refuses to Believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.. since this article is yours and primarily about baptism, I will close my remarks with that baptism in the salvation drama simulates the death of the old man, even as Jesus died on the cross, why would burial of that old man not be required, for THAT old man will NOT be resurrected. It needs to die and be buried.. I agree sister, that we cannot DO it as Jesus did it, by death on the Cross. but we CAN do it as the apostles did. Since we are not out of the flesh completely, it seems that some things we do must still be done certain ways. I don't care if some merely see baptism as a religious act, ( if that's all it is to them then it maybe means nothing, but I shall not be the judge of that). I DO like how Paul at first so greatly misled, then converted, obedient, then so powerful in his ministry, saying we must contend for the faith everywhere we go, also tactful in saying if there is any contention , then we have no such custom.


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

I love your spirit and heart for God, Oscarlites. As I read through your words, pondered what you wrote, what stood out to me was this: “WhAT if we were to go to another planet, and indeed we may have already done that in the spiritual, but someone comes to us and says, here! drink of this water!.. and hands us a cup; and we look, and see nothing, and then curiously reach our finger into the cup, and feel no water.. but our host says, no, there is no actual water there, but go ahead and drink it, it has some soothing effect to imagine you are drinking this water, at least you can remember what it used to taste like.. that would be powerless and unsatisfying to say the least.. “

We would answer this in the Spirit by going back to John 4 with the woman at the well. “Where can I get this Living Water?” Surely, Jesus told her, “whoever drinks of this water [H2O] will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

You then stated, “from a child my mother showed me that baptism is a water/spirit thing. she DID teach One Lord one faith one baptism. but that baptism is two parts, dealing with the old sinful man first and then the spiritual man.”

If baptism is in two parts, then so is the LORD and our faith. One means one. God is Spirit who manifested Himself in the flesh (so we have Spirit and flesh). And what is faith (spiritual) without works (flesh)? In this sense, I would say that literal H2O baptism is the ‘flesh’ part of the ‘spirit’ (heart) part. However, I will never put such weight on H2O as to say a person’s salvation is as stake, if they couldn’t be water-baptized, anymore than if s/he never partook of the LORD’s supper. It is a physical sign (symbolic) of what has happened spiritually, and God only cares about the heart. While outward circumcision was a matter of belonging to the nation of Israel or being banished from it in the Old Testament (a mandate of physical cleanliness), water-baptism is as outward circumcision, when God only cares about the circumcision of the heart. In fact, the reason many priests give for infant baptism is that infants (males) were circumcised on the eighth day, according to the Law and they have substituted water-sprinkling for circumcision. Ridiculous.

As circumcision allowed people to belong to the nation of Israel, many churches require membership of the individual before they can be water-baptized. There is One Body of Christ and we should not have to feel like we don't belong to 'a' body, if we've come out of the organized churches and her vast, varying doctrines. Do you know how many churches are corrupt, preaching traditional heresies? Most all have some things right, and enough wrong to keep anyone from learning the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

I praise God for the mikveh (baptize oneself) in physical, living water, where anyone can accomplish this before the LORD. That one would bear witness of themselves and the Spirit would bear witness, amen. So, that is my advice to all believers that have come out of the Churchianity Harlot and Her Daughters, if they desire to be water-baptized.

I love you, brother – love your faith and heart for Jesus. God bless you.


chevyssbowtie 2 years ago

Hello Again, just a reminder

"Judah's Daughter 10 months ago"

Hello, chevyssbowtie ~ I've responded to all your posts that I've received ~ if you commented since your previous post, I do not have it...

Actually my very last post was not responded to and I left it a couple of times.


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Oscarlites 2 years ago from Alabama

thanks.. It appears that you really do ponder on this. as I re-read my comments and remarks, how sloppy is my writing, punctuation and spelling! It is amazing how even one word can change the intent or meaning of something. Being baptized into Christ is more important since HE is the head of the "church". How much and who it is, and what denomination, and membership roles, oh how confusing. It does seem that he has prophets today, but in my mind and humble position, it is the ones that DO the work of God, and OTHERS have reason to call them a prophet; NOT the ones that self proclaim that role. By what they have said or done and it comes to pass how does it go? oh"thus and so". the HOLY Ghost also having this seal; "the Lord knoweth them that are his". Choice and consequence. Choose him and live!

I love you too dear sister. Pray that we rise to meet the Lord in the sky! Blessings to you as well. freedom from all bondage .


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

Amen, brother Oscarlites. I so appreciate your kind discussion of this topic. The love of Christ shines through, and I feel His love for you. Have a wonderfully, blessed day!!


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Judah's Daughter 2 years ago from Roseville, CA Author

chevyssbowtie, up until that time I had read, posted and responded to your comments; however, you continued to be redundant and left extremely long comments. I decided we had covered your views quite thoroughly and they did not merit continuing the rhetoric. It's obvious you do not receive my responses and will not, so -- so be it.


Norine Williams 3 months ago

Judah, using your interpretation that the Holy Spirit is the ONLY baptism, Paul certainly contradicted himself in I Corinthians 1:14 when he said “I baptized no one” for there are too many Scriptures that say Paul “laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit!”

Explain!


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Judah's Daughter 3 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Norine -- I've had to delete and repost this response to you because the LORD kept speaking more to me! WOW!

We have to look at the cross-reference of 1 Cor 1:13 which is Mat 3:6 "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him [John] in the Jordan River", in that Paul was saying he thanked God he hadn't water-baptized anyone. Indeed Paul baptized in the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands (ref. Acts 8:18; Acts 19:1-6).

In context of 1 Cor 1, Paul is stating that to be water-baptized by this person or that person is making a statement, "I follow that person that water-baptized me, for I was baptized in that person's name." It is interesting to note that Simon-Peter (Cephas or Kepha) is mentioned in 1 Cor 1:14 and it is he who preached Acts 2:38. Even "Christ" is mentioned in the list of those who water-baptized, as to whom they "follow" (vs. 12 - this always seemed strange to me). Truly, we don't follow any man, whether it's Paul, Apollos, Peter...and "Christ" means anointed - so any anointed believer that water-baptizes is how I must interpret this. "Is Christ divided" may mean "are the anointed divided"?.

If we were to interpret "Christ" as referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, we must reflect here, that Jesus Himself did not water-baptize anyone according to John 4:2, and John prophesied that Jesus would baptize, but with fire and the Holy Spirit (Mat 3:11, even Luke 3:16). This may explain Acts 8:16 "because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." In fact, read the NEXT verse! "Then Peter and John PLACED THEIR HANDS ON THEM, and they received the Holy Spirit."

I went back to Acts 2, the Day of Pentecost, when Peter and 119 others were baptized by Jesus in that upper room and re-read his message - that the prophesy of Joel had been fulfilled that day. No where in that chapter is water mentioned; rather it states, "40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." Do you think they water-baptized 3,000 people? Or, did the Holy Spirit baptize all, as He did those in the upper room and as shown in Acts 10:44?

Through the laying on of hands by believers filled with His Spirit (already baptized by Jesus in Spirit), Jesus transfers His Living Water, His Spirit, to the one being baptized in His Spirit. It is scripturally evident that the laying on of hands is not required to be baptized in the Holy Spirit (i.e. Acts 10:44-45 "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also [were these the Jews who were baptized in Acts 2?] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God."


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Judah's Daughter 3 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yet another P.S., Norine - Truly, those baptized in the Spirit in Acts 10 were then water-baptized. This is where we get the term "believer's baptism". Even the eunuch baptized by Philip had to first believe before being water-baptized. Water-baptism is an ordinance for believers, but is not the baptism that washes us clean, forgives our sin or saves us.


Norine Williams 3 months ago

As I posted on your other HUB, read Hebrews 6:1-3! There are "baptisms" (more than one)! As you say "water baptism" does not save us but shows a good conscience toward God" according to I Peter 3:20-21!

God told me to write this! WOW! Hebrews 6:10-15 "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end. That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endure, he obtained the promise."

Now that is a WOW!

God Bless You!

Keep Pressing!


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Judah's Daughter 3 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Yes, Norine - there are "baptisms" in doctrines of men, but there is only one LORD, one Faith and one Baptism according to the Word. We must be born again. We must be born of the Spirit. As an infant in the womb is born of the living water (in that it nourishes and keeps the infant alive and growing until it is born of the flesh), an infant in the "womb of the Spirit" is born of the Living Water (in that it nourishes and keeps us alive and growing until we are resurrected in immortality). Amen and amen!


Norine Williams 3 months ago

I agree! When "communing" (worshiping) with the LORD, it's "ALL Spiritual!" Romans 8:8 says "So then they that are in the "flesh" cannot please GOD!" Also, John 4:24 says "GOD is a Spirit and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth." Which makes Ephesians 4:4-5 true "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" ("Spiritual")!

That's what I love about Scripture! One MUST put on "Spiritual" eyes to see TRUTH in HIS WORD. Isaiah 28:10 says "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little," but without Holy Spirit guidance, one is blind!

Now I would not call I Peter 3:20-21 "doctrine of men." It says we are to show (men) "a good conscience toward God." If Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit (for All Scripture is inspired by God"), then that's what we should do, if God permits.

I "see!" You are right in saying "an infant in the womb is born of the living water..." for "natural water" cannot save us and only shows "men" our "good conscience toward God!"

Thank you Jesus! Thank you Judah for continuing to "Study" the Word of God" and bringing forth new "revelation" time and time again! That's what the LORD wants from us to "change from glory to glory" (II Corinthians 3:18) and not remain "complacent" in our belief! Maybe we (ALL) will eventually reach the point where we can do as Hebrews 6:1-3 says "press on into "perfection!" This is my goal, if God permits!

Keep Pressing Sister,

Love,

Norine


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Judah's Daughter 3 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Praise God, Norine! Please don't misunderstand what I stated about 1 Pet 3:20-21. What I'm saying is those who are proponents of water-baptism that "saves" use this passage, when indeed Noah nor his family that were saved FROM the flood were ever touched by the water that cleansed the earth of evil. Again, symbolism is used in verse 21, in that evil/sin is "washed away" spiritually, as the literal water washed away evil from the earth in the days of the great flood. Literal water does not cleanse a soul, does not cleanse a person of his/her sin. This was Jesus' point when He addressed the sinful Jewish leaders that were so squeeky clean on the outside (washings, eating clean food, being righteous in the public eye), for He said the outside of their "cup" was indeed clean, while the inside was filthy (Mat 23:25). It's interesting Jesus used "cup" in this metaphor, for David wrote in Ps 23:5 "my cup runneth over". When we then ponder the words of Jesus to the Samaritan woman (also a Jew) in John 4:14, we can glean a greater understanding: "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." BEAUTIFUL!

There's a hub I wrote a long time ago that shows the correlation of the Spirit of God to Living Water -- I would love it if you read it and let me know if you are blessed by it! It's entitled "The Gospel in a Glass" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-GOSPEL...

Blessings to you, sister Norine!


Norine Williams 3 months ago

Amen! Amen! Amen! Hallelujah! Thank you JESUS!

I don't know why, but I "anxiously" await your responses! I love to speak to one that has a "connection" with the Holy Spirit for they are few and far behind (especially on HP)! Thank GOD for you Judah!

Judah, There is but one (Spiritual) baptism (Ephesians 4:5) yet another (water) which is our "answer of a good conscience toward GOD" (I Peter 3:21)! To this we agree!

Yes, I love JESUS! Read my Question "Do you think the Nicea Council was for or against GOD?" GOD speaks in metaphors throughout Scripture and if one is not "worshiping in Spirit and in truth," they will NEVER receive "revelation" but will continue to read "the letter" only (II Corinthians 3:6) and misinterpret!

The Holy Spirit has also "revealed" the woman at the well was not saved! I know RELIGION has "taught" MOST this is not true but based on what JESUS SAID in John 4:21 "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when YE shall NEITHER in this mountain, NOR yet at Jerusalem worship the Father." NEITHER, NOR? Geographical location has NOTHING to do with her "worshiping the Father!" The fact is, JESUS said WHEREVER you worship, you will NEVER WORSHIP THE FATHER. Why? Verse 22: JESUS SAID "Ye worship YE KNOW NOT WHAT..."

To further confirm she WASN'T SAVED, Verse 29 of the same Chapter she said "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did." And "ignorantly" asked men,"IS THIS NOT THE CHRIST?" I ask, "When one is truly "Saved," need they ask "man?" It was MY least concern! I was as Paul in Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the "revelation" of JESUS CHRIST!" Thank you JESUS!

I will read the HUB you suggested, but I already know, we are "on one accord!"

I will be emailing you of a personal matter.

Stay Blessed, My Sister in Christ and "Keep Pressing!"


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Judah's Daughter 3 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Thank you, sister Norine -- I don't know whether or not the woman at the well was saved, but I appreciate your presenting why you believe she was not saved. When Jesus spoke to her about where the Jewish Samaritans worshipped (versus the Jews in Israel), He was making the point that the day was coming when it would no longer matter "where" they worshipped - for God is indeed Spirit and all that are His will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth everywhere.

Prior to the Day of Pentecost, God's Spirit rested in temples made with hands, namely in the Holy of Holies - He guided His chosen ones by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. He showed up to Abraham in person, while His angels went on to rescue Lot and his family, etc.

We read about the Good Samaritan, helping a Jew from Israel. As with Islam, there are Sunnis and Shiites - they are both Muslim and follow Allah and Muhammad, but fight against each other regarding doctrinal differences. The same situation was present between the Jews of Israel and the Jews of Samaria. If you read my hub, "The Lamb's Book of Life", I could only come to the conclusion that Heb 11 (also called the Faith chapter) listed all who were saved by faith prior to the Law being given. How could they be saved before the Law, or saved before the cross? Jesus answered this question in chapter 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Consummation of the ages means the cross erased sin for all time past and all time forward.

Remember that God told Hosea to marry Gomer, a prostitute! She was of Israel, of the chosen. God doesn't join the saved with the unsaved. How could Gomer have been saved? When God chooses, His grace is greater than all our sin. He knows the end from the beginning. This truly is amazing grace, grace which He showed to the Samaritan woman at the well. She gave Him literal water to drink and He gave her the Living Water to drink and enough to share with the Samaritans.

"Is this not the Christ?", she asked. As the Jews in Israel were awaiting their Messiah - so the Jews in Samaria were, too. This is why I believe she was of the chosen - her life may not have been perfect (but was anyone perfect of the chosen? Look at the one who had kept all the commandments, but couldn't sell all he had to give to the poor and follow Jesus). I don't know that it matters to me or not whether the woman at the well was "saved" at the time Jesus spoke with her. I can definitely believe she was saved the minute He showed her who He was, for she received, believed and spread the good news!


Norine Williams 2 months ago

Scripture is all we have and based on his Word, Jesus told her she would "neither" and "nor" worship the Father in "whatever" location. She added to "truth" by asking men "Is this the Christ?"

Did she "really" spread the good news? The men didn't believe her based on how she "delivered" the good news, questioning her belief! John 4: 42 "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, NOT BECAUSE OF THY SAYING: for we have "heard" him ourselves and KNOW that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

When one "hears," they KNOW and don't "question!" She may have heard but didn't "hear" nor did she "receive" or "believe" else she wouldn't have questioned. It reminds me of the parable of the sower in Matthew Chapter 13 "Some fell on stony places" which was her case because she worshiped "she knew not what" (sex) more than anything!

Of course, GOD is the "final Judge" and He did go into the "prison and speak to the prisoners" (II Peter 3:19) but based on Scripture, she did not "receive" or "believe!"

As He "revealed" to me, according to Scripture, Judas met all the requirements to be saved and others say not! He "repented," felt such remorse, that he hang himself! As above, Jesus went into the prison and preached to the prisoners! Again, GOD is the "final Judge" but He continues to "reveal" new "understanding" of His Word that has never been taught by secular religion! Thank you JESUS!

He gave ALL souls prior to the Cross the same opportunity (GRACE) He gave us according to I Peter 3:19; therefore, we will not know except through "revelation!"


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Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

So you stated, "Jesus told her she would "neither" and "nor" worship the Father in "whatever" location" - If she was not a woman of faith, why was she worshiping the Father in any location?

Whether or not the hearers believed her words or already had believed because of hearing prior and now receiving confirmation from the woman does not mean she was not a woman of faith. She, as all the other Jews, was looking for the Messiah and realized she had spoken with Him.

Regarding Jesus preaching to prisoners in hell/Hades, actually He did not preach salvation to those who died in the days of Noah, let alone the theif who died alongside Him that day at Calvary. As we stated before, people read the black and white mistranslations and false doctrines resulted. This is yet another one. Please read my hub "Did Jesus Preach in Hell?" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Did-Jesus-... Truly, if we could get saved in hell, there really wouldn't be such a sense of urgency for people to receive the gospel and believe before death. Moses (who had died, according to Scripture) was on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus and Elijah prior to the LORD's death. I guess God let him out of hell for a minute? No.

There are two words for repent (metanoeó - to repent unto salvation) and (metamelomai - to regret something), which the latter applies to Judas. Jesus said from the get-go that Judas was a devil (John 6:70). He chose a devil, knowing Judas would betray Him -- God indeed uses Satan and his followers for God's good purpose. This is covered in my hub "God Created Satan - Did God Create Evil? http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/God-Create...

Lots of ground to yet travel, sister Norine. Blessings.


Norine Williams 2 months ago

Yes, she was "looking" or "worshiping" (like they do today in Religion) but when HE presented HIMSELF unto her, she didn't recognize and did not realize she was talking to HIM; as evidenced by the question, "Is this not the Christ?" Her "worshiping" ("faith") was DISTORTED (as MANY today) by her "personal" worship, "Ye worship ye know not what" (sex)!

Yes, HE "went into the prison and preached to the prisoners;" otherwise, HE would not be a "JUST" GOD! Do you really think HE has a different set of rules for JUDGMENT for those under the Old Covenant? He afforded them the same GRACE as HE does us so ALL can be "equally" JUDGED!

You said, "Truly, if we could get saved in hell, there really wouldn't be a sense of urgency for people to receive the gospel and believe before death." To this, I give WORD! Exodus 33:19 "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be GRACIOUS TO WHOM I WILL BE GRACIOUS, AND WILL SHEW MERCY ON WHOM I WILL SHEW MERCY!" Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH "MERCY!" Thank you JESUS!

Oh yes, "There is a sense of "urgency" for people to receive the gospel and believe before death," because HE HAS LEFT WORD and knows our hearts as to whether or not we are diligently "seeking HIS face!"

Yes, JESUS KNEW beforehand JUDAS would betray HIM, yet Scripture HAD TO BE FULFILLED! GOD is not as "man" to "use" someone and (for lack of better words) "kick him to the curve!" Without Judas (or anyone else HE would have chosen), Scripture would not have been "fulfilled!" I thank GOD for Judas! Consequently, according to Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15-16, "GOD HAVE MERCY ON WHOM HE PLEASES" and is the FINAL JUDGE!

Yes, "Lots of ground to yet travel," sister Judah and is why I continue to say, "Keep Pressing!"

Blessings


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Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

We disagree in regard to Jesus "preaching" salvation to those who died in the flood, those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrah, the rich man in Hades, the thief who mocked Him on the cross, and even Judas. There is no message of salvation after death. Period. The word "preached" in that passage is actually "made proclamation" (declaring His victory).

Because Jesus' death covered all, from the beginning of creation until He comes again, none of the righteous ever went to Hades or hell. They were saved by faith (again, read Hebrews 11), just as we are today. The Law was added, then completed. Ephesians 2:8-9 applies for all time.

It's ASSUMED the woman at the well was unsaved and sexually immoral (so we judge according to behaviors of so many in the church today, do we not?). Our customs are not according to the Law of Moses, which natural Jews still live by today. Who knows if that woman's father was dead, or her previous husbands were dead. There were lots of wars back then. Just because she was being cared for by a man who was not her husband does not prove she was fornicating. Whether or not she was is irrelevant, when we consider Gomer (a prostitute of Israel whom God joined to Hosea) and even Rahab, another prostitute who lied to save the spies was counted as righteous in James 2:25! These women represent ISRAEL, the chosen of God! She was the betrothed of the LORD and He remained faithful, in spite of Her fornications and adulteries (betrothed unfaithfulness).

Yes, God created Satan and God uses him and his followers for His own good purpose.

Prov 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked [7563 rasa – wicked or criminal] for the day of evil."

Isa 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [7451 – ra = bad, evil]: I the LORD do all these things.”

Let us not hold to traditional or judgmental teachings, sister. Do you know how many pastors and authors have held to a theology or belief and refused to repent of those beliefs because of the fact they'd been teaching others and believing all wrong for so long? Let's not be stubborn. The LORD had to teach me and I WAS STUBBORN! I was exhausted, learning by Him that He is NOT a Trinity, let alone some of the others things He's had to show me.

I believe the Word in Truth goes forth and does not return void, so all glory to God.


Norine Williams 2 months ago

Judah, the WORD says differently! I Peter 4:6 says "For this cause was "the gospel" preached ALSO to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." It's as I previously stated, "Jesus went into the grave and preached to the prisoners so that those BEFORE "GRACE" would be judged the same as we are ("...that they may be judged according to men in the flesh...")! Come on sister! GOD is a "JUST" GOD! HE wouldn't judge those before "GRACE" differently from us! Even a "worldly" judge uses the same rules (laws)! How much more do you think JESUS shows righteousness?

How does Ephesians 2:8-9 apply to "all times," when "GRACE" was made available to us only "AFTER THE CROSS?" Explain, unless you are using "FAVOR" as translation for "GRACE?"

JESUS KNEW the woman at the well would NEITHER, NOR worship the Father! In order to be "Married" in the sight of the LORD, you must BELIEVE! Not just 'believe' there is a GOD, as men think 'believing' is today, but BELIEVING with a "pure heart," ALL OF HIS WORD; nothing withstanding! The woman "worshiped she knew not what" which prevented her from BELIEVING with a "pure heart!" It doesn't matter if her other husbands were dead, it only mattered that "She did NOT BELIEVE" and is why JESUS SAID "...Thou hast well said, I have no husband. For thou hast had five husbands (according to world); and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly" (John 4:17-18)! She did not BELIEVE and therefore was not "...in the LORD" (I Corinthians 7:39) and never had a husband; "in the sight of GOD!"

Yes, HIS WORD is TRUE! It's for us to continue "searching" for continued "revelation" in HIS WORD so that we are "changed from glory to glory" (II Corinthians 3:18) into HIS LIKENESS!

Keep Pressing Sister!

Blessings


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Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Norine - it's obvious you are passionate about your interpretations. Whether or not the woman at the well was saved is really not important, but it seems very important to you. If I recall, weren't you writing a book or an article about the woman and are stating as fact she was not saved? It would negate all your hard work, if you were wrong. The Word clearly states she was worshiping the Father at this mountain or that, while the Jews in Israel were worhiping at a different mountain. Even they did not recognize Jesus, but does that mean they were not the chosen? Did Jesus say on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they KNOW NOT what they do?" You've inserted your own interpretation/opinion above when you wrote "Thou hast well said, I have no husband. For thou hast had five husbands (according to world); and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: " "(according to the world) is not in the verse! Jesus was merely telling the woman what He knew of her life, which shocked her and revealed that He is the Christ.

Now, again, you are using a translation of 1 Peter 4:6, which if you looked into the Greek, would know that the NLT and many other translations word it correctly as "That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead--so although they were destined to die like all people, they now live forever with God in the Spirit." (Ref: Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; hyperbolically and proleptically equivalent to as if already dead, sure to die, destined inevitably to die:)

The good news was preached to them while they were living. They were destined to die like all people, and because they believed while they were living, they now (though they died) live forever with God in the Spirit. Here are the various translations: http://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-6.htm

The Word is true and we must humble ourselves to receive it, even if it doesn't agree with what we think we understand.


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Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Furthermore, Norine, I encourage you to read this two-part study on the Book of Life and The Books of Judgement. The Word declares names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. It also declares that names can be blotted out (the wicked). So, how did the wicked's names start out in the Book of Life to be blotted out of it?This answers the question of "favor" or "grace", regardless of what you call it. Jesus died for the whole world, past, present and future. He couldn't shed His blood once a year, as the Jews slaughtered lambs under the Law (Heb 9:26). Their sins were "passsed over" year after year, but wiped out and remitted at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection of their LORD God (predestined from the foundation of the world - Rev 13:8). The whole teaching that people went to Hades/Hell prior to the cross, though they were the patriarchs of faith (Heb 11), is in error! Likewise, to think those God judged in the flood, at Sodom and Gomorrah, the rich man in Hades or the thief on the cross who mocked Him were preached the gospel and got outta there afterwards, is anti-scriptural and ludicrous!

The Lamb's Book of Life

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/The-Lambs-...

And The Books Were Opened

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/And-The-Bo...


Norine Williams 2 months ago

I am not addressing these "revelations" to debate whether or not they will be accepted by anyone, only telling you what HE has "revealed" to me! As the sower in Matthew 13, it is not for everyone to receive! I just want to "sow the seed" which increases one's "spiritual growth" if "GOD gives the increase" (accepted)!

I don't say ANYTHING that can't be backed up with Scripture! If Scripture says in I Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached ALSO to them that are "DEAD" and then goes on to say "...that they might be JUDGED ACCORDING TO MEN "IN THE FLESH"..." I can't defy Scripture by saying "JESUS never preached to the dead!" It certainly was not referring to the "Spiritually" DEAD or It would not have said "according to men in the flesh" AND "but live according to God in the Spirit!"

It matters if Religion is "teaching" the woman at the well was saved, for they are misleading His sheep! Jeremiah 23:1 "Woe unto the shepherds who lead my sheep astray! saith the LORD!"

I don't care about the "negation of my hard work in writing a book," (which is only a draft at this point) only TRUTH in His Word! Again, I cannot defy Scripture by saying the woman at the well was ever "MARRIED" in the sight of GOD when Scripture says one has to be "...IN THE LORD!" I Corinthians 7:39 says this of a second "MARRIAGE," but how much more the first? The woman at the well NEVER KNEW JESUS; therefore, how could she "MARRY" in the sight of GOD because Ephesians 2:1 says [We] "...were DEAD in our trespasses and sins" and a "MARRIAGE" is a Spiritual Union in the sight of GOD! Ephesians 5:32 says concerning a "MARRIAGE" in the sight of GOD "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church." Well is Christ and the Church not both "Spiritual?"

Judah, we BOTH are "Pressing!" As you've shared your "revelations," so am I in hopes that we "Grow" into HIS likeness! However, no one can "give the increase" or "reveal" these things unto man, BUT GOD!

We ALL have to "Seek out our own Salvation" (Philippians 2:2) laying aside what "we think," how things can be "negated," or WHATEVER but seek ONLY TRUTH IN HIS WORD with a "pure heart!"

I just read your last line! PRECISELY! Amen and Amen!


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Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Norine, how can you say the Samaritan woman "NEVER KNEW JESUS, therefore, how could she "MARRY" in the sight of GOD!" Have you read Ezra 10? Israel lived and married according to the Torah! Did you know the Samaritans lived in strict accordance with the Torah? This is why I said it is possible the woman's husbands passed away due to war, and her father, too because she would be back at her father's house otherwise. Who knows who the man was that was taking care of her (bless his heart)? Are you saying Adam and Eve were not joined by God? Gomer to Hosea? Ruth to Boaz? None of them KNEW JESUS, for that name did not come to be until the Angel told Mary to call the baby's name JESUS (YHWH is Salvation), "for He will SAVE His people from their sins". When the Word made flesh appeared to the Jews, some received that He was/is God; others were blinded by God because of their pride/works. The Samaritan woman was anxiously awaiting the Christ and was marveling that she had actually met Him and took the news back to the Samaritan Jews, who had already heard of Him (so?)

There is ONE TREE (just as there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism). That Tree is spoken of in Romans 11 = ISRAEL, the [betrothed] Bride of Christ/the Bride of God. The marriage/wedding feast of the Lamb has not happened yet! Whether it was natural Israel (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) or the grafted in Israel (Gentiles, born again who are then known as "Abraham's Offspring"), the Church (the Bride) did NOT start upon the death and resurrection of our LORD.

Heb 11 is the FAITH chapter (for by grace are ye SAVED through faith) - look at all the patriarchs of faith prior to even the Law being given! They were SAVED by faith in the same God who came as the Son of Man to shed His Own Blood for their sins. When it is written that David did not ascend to heaven, it doesn't mean he was stuck in Hades/Hell until Jesus came to get him! It means, the ONLY bodily resurrection and ascension in history was Jesus Christ Himself, the Living God. Everyone else's bodies remain as ashes until the Day the LORD resurrects us all. Our spirits, however are "ABSENT from the body and PRESENT with the LORD!" (2 Cor 5:8) Look at David's prayer in Psalm 139!! God is everywhere! We are never separated from Him when we believe!

I can't believe you think everyone for 4,000 years before the coming of Christ was LOST or put in Hell/Hades to await the gospel being preached to them by Jesus. No. "The gospel was preached [past tense] to those who are now [present tense] dead". Because they believed while yet alive with ears to hear, and though they were destined to die like all mortals, they NOW [present tense] live according to God in the Spirit (life after death in the presence of God).

Read up on the Samaritans http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/...

Please consider these things.


Norine Williams 2 months ago

OMG! Don’t you believe JESUS was “BEFORE” the beginning? John 8:58 says “Before Abraham was “I AM!” Therefore, how can you say “None of them KNEW JESUS, for that “name” did not come to be until the Angel told Mary to “CALL” the baby's name JESUS (YHWH is Salvation), "for He will SAVE His people from their sins”?

You don’t believe JESUS was there from the beginning (John 8:58)? GOD operates in “GLORIES!” HE changes HIMSELF into different “GLORIES” throughout Scripture to accomplish HIS WILL and is why the “natural man” doesn’t believe Ephesians 4:4-6; or all other Scriptures that say JESUS is GOD (I Corinthians Chapter 12, (v12) “…and so is Christ”)!

Isaiah 6:3 says “…the whole earth is full of HIS “GLORY.” (I was turning to Isaiah 9:6 when my eyes fell on 6:3! Hallelujah! GOD “guides” me! Thank you JESUS!)

Judah, did you notice when the Angel appeared to Mary HE told her to “CALL” the baby’s name JESUS?” The KEY WORD is “CALL!” Isaiah 9:6 says “…and his “name” shall be “CALLED” Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Look at ALL of HIS “GLORIES” or “TITLES!” HE IS “I AM!” Hallelujah!

Keep thinking in the “Spiritual” realm sister! JESUS was there BEFORE the world was and is why HE SAID “BEFORE Abraham was “I AM” (John 8:58)! Genesis 1:26 says “let “US!” HE WAS THERE! JESUS was “manifested in the flesh” (I Timothy 3:16) after being born of Mary and was “CALLED” (Another “GLORY!”) JESUS at that point, but existed BEFORE being inseminated (for lack of better word) by HIMSELF into Mary! Therefore, I am not saying “Adam and Eve were not joined by God, Gomer to Hosea, or Ruth to Boaz for JESUS “was” THERE all the time!

Sure, the Samaritan woman “saw” Christ with her “natural eyes” but her spirit did not receive HIM or she would have NEVER asked men “Is not this the Christ?” JESUS SAID “We “KNOW” whom we worship…” which indicates we “KNOW!” If she KNEW, why would “she” have to ask? Why would JESUS say “Neither/Nor” which means “NEVER” which she proved by asking the question!

Even the men said “Not by your (doubtful) saying, but because we have “heard” (Spiritually) him ourselves and “KNOW” that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” See? They “heard” and BELIEVED then “KNEW” that HE was the Christ! They showed NO DOUBT! Think on this!

Did not JESUS say “Thou hast well said, I have no husband” (John 4:17)? Did HE not also say “…and whom thou now hast is NOT thy husband…” (John 4:18)? Even JESUS SAID her “husband” was not a “husband” IN HIS SIGHT for HE SAID “…in that saidst thou truly” and that is why I said in the sight of man the man was considered a “husband” but not IN THE SIGHT OF GOD! One cannot LIE (as she couldn’t!) to the Holy Spirit (JESUS) as evidenced in Acts 5:3!

Judah, keep your spiritual “eyes” open as you consider these things. As you said to me, change would negate a lot of your hard work, but our concern is not about how much hard work is negated, but TRUTH in HIS WORD! We want to KNOW JESUS! That is my goal and I pray it’s yours! We “press” to “change from glory to glory” (II Corinthians 3:18), as Christ!

“MARRIAGE” (in the sight of GOD) is a “Spiritual” union between man and woman. At least one of the couple has to be “…in the LORD” (I Corinthians 7:39)! Ephesians 2:1 says we “…were DEAD (Spiritually) in our trespasses and sins.” Therefore, I ask “How can it be a “MARRIAGE” (in the sight of GOD)? Ephesians 5:32 “This is a GREAT MYSTERY: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church” – HOLY! Therefore, “MARRIAGE” should be HOLY, (in the sight of GOD)! Was the woman’s at the well? NO! That’s why those men were NOT her “husbands” according to JESUS! Thank you JESUS for the “revelation!”

I have read Hebrews Chapter 11 and BELIEVE the Church did not began “after the resurrection of Christ!” If I gave you that impression, I ask forgiveness! How could I believe the following since Hebrews “IS WRITTEN?”

I do not believe “ALL were put in Hell/Hades to await the gospel being preached to them by Jesus.” I Peter 3:19-20 said “spirits …which sometime were DISOBEDIENT…” meaning sinners” and is why they are referred to as “prisoners” in verse 19! Matthew 27:52-53 says “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the “saints” which “slept” arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” How then would I believe JESUS preached to the “saints?” I agree, “We (Our spirits) are “present with the LORD (in Spirit)” after (physical) death (II Corinthians 5:8)!

Conclusion: The woman at the well was NOT saved and it matters that leaders of churches are teaching in error! However, since she was amongst those “which sometime were disobedient” (as Judas) and Christ “preached to the “prisoners” after resurrection,” who knows? GOD did say “I will have mercy on whom I please” so HE is the final Judge as with Judas and all other “disobedient” spirits!

We have been given Scripture and it is our responsibility to “STUDY” WHAT “IS WRITTEN” with the HELP of the Holy Spirit for “revelation” of TRUTH in HIS WORD! As we “change from glory to glory” one step at a time, growing into HIS LIKENESS! GOD is a lamp unto my feet” and HE operates to me as a Flashlight showing me a little at a time of which I share! However, only TRUE WORSHIPERS will be able to “see” The Light!

I pray!

Keep “Pressing” Sister


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

Wow, Norine - there's so much confusion in what you've written, I don't know where to begin, nor if you would be able to see clearly to sort it all out. I will try to keep this to the point and not all over the map, going line upon line to answer you. You may have "spiritualized" to the point that you are ignoring the black and white, clearly written context of these passages.

You read my hub, "Is JESUS the Name of God", so you clearly understand His NAME before His conception in Mary's womb was/is YHWH. He is the eternal God, our Creator. His name upon conception, as the Son of Man was called JESUS (Yehowshua or Joshua in English), for God our Savior, the Lamb, was born. Do you see the name JESUS in Isaiah 9:6? No.

Regarding the Samaritan woman at the well ~ may I state here something the LORD brought to my spirit this morning. Again, Jesus said He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Mat 10:6 and 15:24). If we consider the parable of the lost sheep, know that the sheep began IN THE FOLD and wandered off. It didn't make that sheep any less of a sheep that belonged to the Shepherd. Jesus would leave the 99 and go after the one. The Samaritan woman was a sheep that belonged to the Shepherd. He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel and He spoke to her. Ponder that.

The woman was excited and for her to ask her people, "Is this not the Christ?" means she believed He was and wanted them to consider it as well - that He could be the Christ (Messiah) they were waiting for. It doesn't mean she didn't "know" Him, after she heard Him. She was convinced He was the Christ. You're assuming the people of Samaria heard Jesus spiritually? How is that possible, since the Holy Spirit had not yet been given? Angels were used to communicate God's Word to believers before the Day of Pentecost (Mary being told she would bare a child, the disciples at the tomb, etc.). No, Norine - the Samaritans had literally heard Jesus speak to the crowds and many of them believed He was the Christ (Rom 10:17).

So, the woman told Jesus she had no husband. Did she lie about her present marital status? No. Then, Jesus told her she had had five husbands (in the past) and confirmed that the man she was living with was not her husband. They agreed. Why would Jesus call the five men "husbands" if they were NOT husbands in the sight of God? Why do you speak as though she was living in fornication, let alone claiming to be married? Is there anything in the passage to confirm that? You call it a marriage, but she and Jesus both said she had NO HUSBAND at the present time. You sound very confused.

1 Pet 3:19-20 is specifically speaking about the spirits in prison from the days of Noah. Let's read it: "19 After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water," Believe it or not, these spirits were those of the fallen angels incarcerated in Tartaroo (the deepest abyss of Hades/Hell). He made proclamation of His victory to them. Cross ref. 2 Pet 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;". In Mat 27:50-51 there was a great earthquake at the moment Jesus gave up His spirit and the graves of many were opened, meaning those people were resurrected from the dead, as Lazarus was. It was not because He went and preached the gospel to them and suddenly they got out of their graves because they believed. Jesus hadn't even been placed in the tomb yet! And since that was not the time of the second coming of Jesus and the first bodily resurrection of the saints (in that we are changed from mortal to immortal), those people died again, just as Lazarus did.


Norine Williams 2 months ago

You forget there is “ONE SPIRIT” Ephesians 4:4-6) which consists of ALL of GOD’S “GLORIES!” Just because JESUS had not yet been “manifested in the flesh” or HIS “GLORY” had not been “manifested in the flesh” DOES NOT mean, HE was not there (unless you are reading “the letter”)! Of course, it sounds as though “I’m all over the place,” unless “the eyes of your heart is enlightened!” When one is “spiritualized,” they do ignore “the letter” and look with “Spiritual eyes!” No, I do not “see” (with carnal eyes) the name of JESUS in Isaiah 9:6, but we’re talking Spiritual! Have you forgotten John 4:23-24 “MUST WORSHIP IN “SPIRIT” and in TRUTH?”

She certainly did “wander off” in that she “wandered” into six men who JESUS did not recognize as “husbands” or HE would not have said, “The one you now have is not your “husband!” Why? Because she “wandered off” and allowed her immoral ways (sex) exceed what she truly worshiped or JESUS wouldn’t have said “You worship you know not what!” Look in the Spirit!

I Corinthians 7:14 further confirms “one of the couple must be “in the Lord” for the “MARRIAGE” to be recognized in the sight of GOD which says, “…else were your children “unclean!” How does a HOLY “MARRIAGE” produce “unclean children?” Come on now!

GOD knows our hearts! He knew hers and is why HE told this sheep that “wandered off” she would “NEITHER/NOR” worship the Father because HE saw she loved her immoral ways MORE than Christ!

“Excited?” Why would she elicit information if she KNEW JESUS? Did you not say “could be?” If one BELIEVES, they KNOW! She was not “convinced,” or she would have questioned! They didn’t have to hear spiritually for HE was the Holy Spirit “in the flesh!” They only had to BELIEVE and not question!

The Holy Spirit was given to those who BELIEVED! John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: “THOSE THAT THOU HAST GAVEST ME I HAVE KEPT,” and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” The disciples received the Holy Spirit BEFORE the Day of Pentecost. John 20:22 says “And when HE had said this, HE breathed on them, and saith unto them, RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST!” There is a difference in “hearing” (with carnal ears) and “hearing” (with spiritual ears)!

Did I not say “One cannot LIE to the Holy Spirit” (Acts 5:3)?

Do you recall how Paul said in I Corinthians 9:19-20 “For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant (AS JESUS) unto all, that I might gain the more? And unto the Jews I became as a Jew (Why GOD became “a son” (SON) so men could understand!), that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law…” You get the picture? The Holy Spirit speaks to one on his level and in his language for understanding! Therefore, JESUS spoke to the woman in the world’s language (“husband”) but told her “The one you now have is not your “husband” (Not in the sight of GOD!)! As not you “confuse you,” let me call him her “fornicator!” I NEVER claimed “she was “MARRIED” in the sight of GOD! That’s the essence of this whole discussion! She was not “MARRIED” in the sight of GOD and JESUS told her that by telling her “the one you now have is NOT your "husband” (REAL HUSBAND)! I again refer to I Corinthians 7:14 “else your children were unclean” and again ask how do you produce “unclean children” IF the “MARRIAGE” is recognized by GOD? "Unclean children” are only produced in fornication, unless one becomes a “BELIEVER” (I Corinthians 7:14) then they become HOLY!

Regarding I Peter 3:19-20: You know these “different translations” are Satan causing more and more to lose their soul! My KJV (1967 Edition) reads (v19) “By [whom] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison (v20) Who [at one time] were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.” Now here is revelation of these verses: “JESUS went and preached to the imprisoned spirits (sinners) who had been disobedient. As in the days of Noah, GOD waited patiently while the ark was being built, in which few, eight souls were saved by water.” As those were “saved by water” (not in a “literal sense” but saved by the “Everlasting Water”), GOD looked at Noah’s heart and found him to be “a just and perfect man, who walked with GOD” (Genesis 6:9) which “saved him” (Favor/Grace)! GOD waited “longsufferingly” (patiently) as HE did to go into the grave to preach “GRACE!”

I again ask, does the judge of this world not have the same laws when judging? How much more do you think our Father in heaven is “JUST?” Why would HE Judge those BEFORE resurrection (LAW) any differently than those AFTER resurrection (GRACE)? HE would be using different sets of laws! That would be “UNJUST!”

Yes, “FAVOR” (GRACE) was given before resurrection, which means not ALL were in Hell/Hades, only the “disobedient!” These are they HE preached to! Why would HE “need” to preach to those already saved ("Saints")?

GOD SAID “I will have mercy on whom I please!” Even if “we think” one should go to hell, (as they did the man on the cross who believed in Him), GOD is the FINAL JUDGE!

“ It was not because He went and preached the gospel to them and suddenly they got out of their graves because they believed.” How did you interpret that saying? If they were “Saints,” they ALREADY “believed!” What are you saying? Didn’t Scripture say “…the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom and…(v52) many bodies of the SAINTS which slept arose, (v53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” Apparently, they didn’t “need” preaching to since they were “SAINTS” so how could I have said “…and suddenly they got out of their graves because they believed?”

Why would you say “Jesus hadn’t even been placed in the tomb yet?” When Jesus “gave up the ghost,” HE got busy! That “tomb” had NOTHING to do with JESUS neither the flesh HE was entombed in (Just like ours!)! Acts 1:2-3 says, “Until the day in which he was TAKEN UP, (I TOLD ALL TO "OBSERVE" THE APOSTLES BECAUSE "AFTER" HE WAS TAKEN UP HE GAVE COMMANDMENTS TO THE APOSTLES!) LISTEN: "AFTER THAT" he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: (v3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them FORTY (40) days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of GOD.” JESUS was too busy “speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of GOD” to lie around in a tomb! Those “saints” didn’t “die again!” “…to be absent from the body, and to be present with the LORD” (II Corinthians 5:8)! We are NEVER apart from the LORD (only in body), if “Saints!”


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 2 months ago from Roseville, CA Author

I've never taught otherwise - that there is only ONE SPIRIT and yes, God showed Himself in many ways all throughout Scripture. You're using the name JESUS in reference to knowing or not knowing Him. His name was not JESUS in the Garden of Eden. It was not JESUS when He appeared before Abraham or wrestled with Jacob, etc. etc. etc. His name was not JESUS until He was conceived in the womb of Mary. Period. And yes, He is the ONE GOD who came to us as the Son of Man: "He came unto His OWN and His own received Him not." (John 1:11). Thus, your first paragraph is yet full of confusion.

I will state again, JESUS called the Samaritan woman's previous husbands HUSBANDS. He does not LIE. She had been married in the sight of God, or He would not have called them HUSBANDS. Likewise, He told the truth when He said the man she was presently living with was NOT her HUSBAND. SHE even said she had no husband. Both of them told the truth! This does NOT mean she was fornicating with him, nor are children mentioned at all. So your whole analogy of a believer marrying an unbeliever and clean or unclean children does NOT apply to the Samaritan woman!

When Jesus told the woman "you [Samaritans] worship what you do not know, while we [the Jews] worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews", He was pointing out that the Samaritans rejected even acknowledging the Prophets who prophesied about His coming. The Samaritans only knew the Law of Moses, no prophesies about the coming Savior. This did not mean she didn't worship the Father already, as the Jews did. They just worshiped at different places, and His point was that no one would worship here nor there, but everywhere - in Spirit and in Truth. He did not tell her she would NOT worship the Father! Where do you get that?

Here is the passage:

"21“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when YOU WILL WORSHIP THE FATHER neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers WILL WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him." He said, "YOU WILL WORSHIP THE FATHER", then said "the true worshipers WILL WORSHIP THE FATHER."

So, if I meet a man that stirs me in my soul and I ask, "could this be the man God called me to marry?", does that mean I truly didn't know the man or that somehow I rejected Him or didn't believe in him? For the Samaritan woman to say, "Is this not the Christ?" only shows me she was stirred in her soul and pondered the question in like manner.

Now, let's go back to Judas. You think he was somehow given mercy, yet in John 17:12 you wrote, "none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Who was the "son of perdition"? JUDAS! Did Jesus say he was lost? Yes! He was not KEPT as were the rest of the twelve.

Yes, Jesus breathed His Spirit upon His disciples, after His resurrection (having appeared to them and spent time with them) and before His ascension, to KEEP them until the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out and baptized them. Whether the disciples could "hear" in the Spirit has nothing to do with the Samaritans "hearing" and believing in Jesus before He spoke to the woman at the well. He hadn't even breathed on His disciples yet, for He was not yet crucified, let alone resurrected from the dead!

Again, Jesus DID NOT go and save those He condemned in the flood, at Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. etc. etc. He sent the angels who sinned to hell and sends souls of men/women to hell and has ever since man was created. We can read Revelation and see death and Hades giving up their dead to stand before the Judgment seat and being cast into the final hell, the Lake of Fire or Gehenna. No one gets saved after death! Read Heb 9:27 "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment."

So you believe Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead, never died again? Where did he go? Is he still wandering the earth, but no one can see him? Did he become invisible? Did he ascend (bodily) to heaven? John 3:3 clearly states, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." Every one of those saints that were resurrected (as Lazarus) from their graves the minute Jesus gave up His spirit DIED again. You're claiming they were "absent from the body and present with the Lord?" Gee, everyone could SEE their resurrected bodies? They were visible; they were not immortal. They did NOT ascend bodily to heaven or become invisible. The FIRST RESURRECTION of the saints is mentioned in Revelation 20:5, which happens at the second coming of Christ when He sets up His millennial reign. The rest are resurrected after that thousand years (death and Hades) to face their final judgement to the Lake of Fire.

You're asking, "Why would HE Judge those BEFORE resurrection (LAW) any differently than those AFTER resurrection (GRACE)? HE would be using different sets of laws! That would be “UNJUST!” You are contradicting yourself! That's what I'm trying to say! All who believed since the creation of man were NOT sent to hell; they were saved by the grace of the cross to come! The Lamb was predestined to be slain since the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and at that moment in time, the ages of old and the ages to come were consummated! (Heb 9:26). Again, as for the wicked God JUDGED/CONDEMNED to Hades, even the angels He imprisoned in Tartaroo, they remain there until the second resurrection and their final judgement to the Lake of Fire. Period. Never did Jesus preach salvation unto them, nor would He have preached the saving gospel to the saints who had passed! As to my latter statement, we agree. The saints didn't need preaching to!

Now, I'm not going to continue this debate, as it has nothing to do with baptism and salvation. We are obsessing over whether or not the woman at the well was saved or lost, fornicating or not, knew Jesus or not and whether or not Jesus preached salvation to those He already condemned to immortal hell. I disagree with your views/theology on all counts here. I've presented my case as you have yours. Let the readers decide what they will believe.

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