Baptism - Who needs it?

I love the forums, they are like fertile breeding grounds for hub ideas, places full of people with opinions and scant knowledge, knee jerk reactions and spiritual snipers.

What fun!

Just been reading a topic on baptism, started a reply, realised I had enough for a hub, so no comment, just my commentary, and yours if you get to the back end of the hub!

The topic was:

"Do you believe babies should be baptized?"

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/34015

Infant baptism is a futile gesture, it's a sweet little ceremony and those who do it feel better and secure, but it has no meaning.

God requires that the baptist has chosen baptism to declare their rejection of the world and acceptance of Christ as their Lord and Master, to illustrate that Satan no longer has any call over their lives and that they are set apart, called out, bond slaves to Christ.

My son wanted to be baptised at 13 years of age, I refused him and told him to ask again when puberty was past.

He was not understanding of what he wanted to achieve in being baptised, his aim was conformity to our church pattern, that's a dumb reason to be baptised.

I was dunked when I was a babe, it was worthless and I was an humanist for 41 years before I came to faith.

My first pastor was a baptism junkie, so he had me dunked a.s.a.p and far too soon, I got a 'John' baptism, a repentence of sin baptism, not a rejection of the world baptism, not a bond slave to Christ baptism.

It was a spiritual wash, not a marinade.

Baptism has two meanings, coming from the word [Greek: baptizo] and it has two functions also, as I said, John the Baptist gave a water baptism, a baptism from sin repented, but Christ baptises into the Holy Spirit, note I say 'into', not in the name of, which is a distinct difference in relationship.

In a physical sense, we baptise vegetables when we wash them clean of the 'sin' (dirt and poisonous chemical pesticides) they bring into our house, before we consume them into our body..... seeing any analogy here at all?

But we would also correctly use the word to mean when we 'baptise' those same (washed) vegetables in a spirit, which will change the very texture and nature of the vegetable as it is 'marinaded' in the spirit.

In a Christians case that is marinaded into the Holy Spirit, and that which is marinaded takes on the very nature of that which it is marinaded in.

Now most churches obviously do not understand this, and give folk a quick wash rather than a slow marinade, then wonder why the fruit spoils.

Back to our question...

"Do you believe babies should be baptized?"

Obviously no baby can possibly comply with what Christ meant, and no ceremony, no matter how significant it seemed at the time to those conscious of it happening may have been, can offer spiritual protection to the child.

Worse still, the child is then told they belong to Christ, which is sorta true, but (and it's a big but) their 'natural' baby protection only covers them until they commit their first deliberate sin that remains unconfessed.... whoooooooah mamma.....

I leave it to you parents to remember how soon that was.

Infant baptism, like young scalp hunting evangelism, is actually more like an inoculation against Christ, than an introduction into the faith, because when puberty hits, Satan starts whispering in the young ears "Did God really say that?" and then when they leap into the sin bucket with both feet, Satan whispers again "Jeebus would be proud of you" and their early baptism or choice for Christ, becomes a burden to carry, and eventually dispose of.

So don't rely on infant baptism to 'save' anyone, read your bible, Christ clearly tells Nicodemus:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

(John 3:5)


What's your position?

When were you baptised?

  • Infant baptism
  • Adult baptism
  • Not yet
  • Never
See results without voting

Is infant baptism valid?

Do you believe in infant baptism

  • Yes
  • No
  • Not sure
  • Used to, but not now
See results without voting

Being born of water and the Spirit requires consent and full acknowledgement of what you are committing to.

My son finally came to faith without telling me, but that was fine, because I knew it was HIS decision, not mine.

He had swam in the rivers of sin and degredation, and made it safely to the other shore.

We reach a point where we have to offer our children up to the world for Satan to take a swing at them, if we have obeyed our parental commands, then they will not depart from God when they grow older, I note that there is a seeming 'gap' in the scripture, it does not say they will NOT depart from God period, punto, it says when they grow older, in other words, they come BACK.

We are commanded to:

Therefore you shall lay up these My words in your [minds and] hearts and in your [entire] being, and bind them for a sign upon your hands and as forehead bands between your eyes.

And you shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you rise up.

(Deuteronomy 11 18:19)

If we are faithful in doing this, our children don't need infant baptism to ward off 'evil', they will grow up in the Lord and come back when they are old.

My son came back.

He was baptised in the Mediterranean INTO the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Now he is being marinaded into that self same Holy Spirit by Metro Ministries, in New York, under the tutelage of sound men of God, who practise what they preach.

If your 'infant baptism' was not sufficient because you did not know what was happening, but you subsequently came to faith, that all consuming faith that is Christ, then renew your baptism and show your rejection of the world system, which also seems to function in churches unfortunately.

Grab a brother or two and head to the ocean, a swimming pool, shucks, even a deep bathtub, and make that commitment that will set you on a pathway to the Kingdom of God, and on a collision course with the kingdom of the world. and get baptised.


More by this Author


Comments 33 comments

matt6v33 profile image

matt6v33 6 years ago from Bangkok, Thailand

I feel this write up, could be much improved. Not well thought out at all Not well written, Not accurate, Very Misleading, 1/2 truths, weak definition of "baptizo" Greek yes, but to "immerse" Mixing apples and oranges against God's Word. Not Good! Very Shallow. Misleading. too many abstracts. Too many Worldlyness, v. Christlikeness and His Word. infant baptism, is Man Made False Doctrine Period! One become a child of God when they reach the age of accountability, and when they then choose to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For those that foolishly Add to, or Take Away from His Word, Hath Not God! For Those that foolishly choose to Not Obey the Gospel, Hath Not God! period! Pray for all "Foolish" man, that choose to do thee above. For They Are Loss! According to Him, Himself.. Good News to all of this Heaven is not going to be crowded when those of us, who have chosen to Obey His Words, get there! Thank You Lord For This!


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Matt. I value your comments and opinions and take them to heart, and you may well be correct, it maybe could do with more work, but it's 2.16 am here in Spain and I must sleep, perhaps writing hubs is not best done late at night!

I will look at it tomorrow, and decide to edit or delete as may be best suited.

Meanwhile I away to bed.

Anyone else who reads, please feel free to comment, I have no desire to publish substandard or inaccurate hubs!


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

I don't really follow matt6v33 ~ hard to understand him. You are correct that infant baptism is not biblical. People can get water-baptized when they make a decision to die to the world and live for Christ; however, if they don't realize they need the baptism of the Spirit (Spirit into them), they will feel powerless.

For me, I was baptized with John's baptism in 3rd grade, but didn't really get baptized in the Spirit until I was in my early 20's. Even Jesus set the example of water baptism in that He was 30 years old!

Truly, one is saved by the repentance in his heart and as he grows to understand that less of him and more of Christ is what it's all about, he will be filled to the brim with the Spirit of God! I have a hub, too ~ called "John and Jesus: About Baptism" that goes more into the baptism of repentance (water) and that of the Spirit (salvation).

The Bible shows that some received the baptism of the Spirit before water baptism, upon water baptism and after water baptism. Those who deny the baptism of the Spirit have the "form of godliness, but deny the power thereof", for we receive "power when the Holy Spirit comes upon us" and are witnesses ~ giving testimony of Him until He comes again. Praise God!


Sanctus Vesania profile image

Sanctus Vesania 6 years ago

Actually I thought this was a decent hub. The only thing about it that I disagree with is the baptizing the into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It's also interesting that one of the other meanings is "to overwhelm"


A M Werner profile image

A M Werner 6 years ago from West Allis

Aguasilver, I too don't believe in infant baptism, but I also don't believe water baptism is necessary - it is still only an outward show. The Holy Spirit does not come on us because we are baptized in water. When John baptized with water, he said he did it unto repentance - but a greater would come who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. That is the baptism I believe in, the spiritual baptism. Peace.


itakins profile image

itakins 6 years ago from Irl

Aguasilver-

Within the Catholic church)infant baptism),we have the opportunity to publicly renew our baptismal vows at Easter every year and to reject satan and all his evil deeds.I would think this covers us pretty well.

The comment above,I almost know by heart at this point-re 'Heaven won't be so crowded' it has been left on one of my hubs ,and others-and this is Christianity!!

The all merciful Christ will be the only judge of souls.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

I came back to the computer because I had decided to unpublish in case this was defective or error, but seeing other comments I will leave it up until tomorrow to see what is commented upon.

Now I really MUST get some sleep!

itakins, you kept me up a mite longer.:0)

I have no experience of the RCC traditions, so I cannot comment, nor would I comment upon the spiritual density of Heaven, for it seem logical that the dimensions given seem fit to accommodate many, not few (comparatively speaking) indeed I think we will be more astounded about who IS in Heaven rather than who is missing, were we to notice them anyway.

I do know that whoever is not there will deserve not to be there, and we will be content with Gods judgement whatever that is.

Now I sleep.....

John


Ghost Whisper 77 profile image

Ghost Whisper 77 6 years ago from The U.S. Government protects Nazi War Criminals

Aquasilver-I read this and it made a lot of sense to me--of why you should be baptized when we are fully committed to Christ...then I read Jim's remarks...got lost with the no mix apples and oranges-against God's word...? I am confused more with Jim's comments. Maybe he will come back and explain what that means.

Truly, one is saved by the repentance in his heart-Judas Daughter wrote-and also that baptism-lake-water-big tub-alone-with God-would be just the same with the intent and sincere and genuine motive to God and following him...yes?

Okay, I will check back....Your hub made great sense to me, though Jim maybe can clarify what he means and that would be helpful to me.


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 6 years ago

Brother your HUB is spot on, Jesus is and was the example and he said. "be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with"

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Peace bro


Marliza Gunter profile image

Marliza Gunter 6 years ago from South Africa

Mat 28:19 ASV Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Mat 3:7 ASV But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 3:11 ASV I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:

Luk 2:21 ASV And when eight days were fulfilled for circumcising him, his name was called JESUS, which was so called by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Act 15:5 ASV But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:19-20 ASV Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; (20) but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.

....I agree with aquasilver...Jesus was circumcised as a baby..not baptized...and circumcision is only for the Jews not for the Gentiles...baptism is for when you are not longer a viper and renounce satan and his power for ever..in the old testament God used children of 20 years as old enough for war...

Num 1:3 ASV from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel, thou and Aaron shall number them by their hosts.

...When is too young?...

2Ch 24:1 ASV Joash was seven years old when he began to reign; and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem: and his mother's name was Zibiah, of Beer-sheba.

2Ki 11:21 ASV Jehoash was seven years old when he began to reign.

2Ki 22:1 ASV Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign; and he reigned thirty and one years in Jerusalem: and his mother's name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath.

Keep this hub...thumbs up!!


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Marliza, the comments would seem to indicate that the hub can stand as it is, though I may add some more detail to it, b'cos this one is only 1000 words and I normally write 1500-2500!


50 Caliber profile image

50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

Bro' John,

you know I am generally as subtle as a swinging sledge hammer in a glass house and since my last time, I promised myself to not do that anymore, so, Matt6v33 is out of line and seems to have dumped a string of words not understandable, maybe typing in tongues? :O I have read other comments by him and respected them but this one I have to disagree with. Your production in this Hub is sound, do not doubt yourself on a pundit remark. Isaiah 44:3; Joel 2:28,29; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 3:11,16; Mark in total, is about the Baptism into the Father, SON,and the Holy Spirit.

I would change but one thing and that would be the 1st poll and add one for being Baptized before the age accountability. I was Baptized at 12 years of age and cannot remember much about it other than getting dunked in the view of the church on a Sunday morning. I didn't know the many lessons of the Bible and didn't learn them for 20 some odd years. I remember my Dad telling me it was before the time I should be Baptized but I insisted and persisted and got my way. My gain from it? Peer pressure was gone? I do not remember so I have to say that it was not done in knowledge or faith. I imagine the next opportunity I get it will have more meaning to it than before.

Good hub and a great talking point.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 6 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Jesus instructed His Apostles to Baptize as He was Baptized, but then Jesus also tells them that The Holy Spirit will come to Baptize them with Fire, and they will receive the Powers of The Holy Spirit at that time, thus indicating a second annointing is necessary. It is my personal belief, and I cannot back it up with the proper scripture, yet I know it exists, that an infant baptism is performed to wash away the sin of our fore-parents Adam and Eve, so that a baby, if it were to die would be spiritually free of sin, to be re-affirmed through an annointing by the Holy Spirit when one reaches the age of reason.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Dave, We are entitled to our personal beliefs.... I hope that you are correct, but I couldn't teach that, for if it's not backed up by scripture, then I have no real idea if it is correct.

We are responsible for that which we teach, and as I know that scripture mentions 'millstones' and 'little ones' in the same verse, I am careful about that issue!

What I do know is that someone who has been adult baptised with full knowledge of what that means, is secure.


RevLady profile image

RevLady 6 years ago from Lantana, Florida

Hi aguasilva, dearly loved by God,

As you indicated, there is no scriptural support for infant baptism. However, in as much as the third thief made it into Paradise without it, I have no reason to believe infants would not enter Paradise. I do not see how one could think otherwise and understand God's immense love for children. God is JUST and I cannot imagine Him condemning infants before they knew what sin was. This way of thinking is incompatible with Scriptures portrait of God.

I enjoyed this hub and loved how you presented it. Keep the spirit!

Forever His,


itakins profile image

itakins 6 years ago from Irl

Aguasilver-

May I ask,for my own education,if a person decides he/she will receive baptism on attaining a specific age in the future-but does not live to be baptised,what happens then?

I am purely interested in your perspective.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi RevLady and itakins.

"if a person decides he/she will receive baptism on attaining a specific age in the future-but does not live to be baptised,what happens then?"

Would it not depend on why they put it off?

I dissuaded my son because I knew his heart was not right with God and any baptism would have been in error at that time.

Was I aware that this left him 'at risk' so to speak, well yes I was, but the jury (God) is still out (in our knowledge)until we die, and I believed that my son would come to true faith, and was predetermined (Ephesians 1)by God for election or not.

In other words, I do not decide who gets in and who is excluded, I just have to accept Gods decision.

I guess the thing about infant baptism is that on one hand it shows the guardians good intent, on the other it hints at superstition.

It's not so much IF we are baptised, as WHY we want to be baptised...

John


HOOWANTSTONO profile image

HOOWANTSTONO 6 years ago

Hey Bro you need support

The Baptism is a sanctification in action and concerning children and who causes children to be sanctified depends on the parents sanctified position ..

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

The thief on the cross was still living under Old Covenant (New had not started yet)also he acknowledged Jesus Christ as Lord, while on the cross, he also acknowledged he was a sinner in need of God therefore he received his salvation instantaneously.

Peace


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Good points Hoo.... good enough for me!

Thanks,

John


itakins profile image

itakins 6 years ago from Irl

It's a pity words like superstition are brought in-it always weakens a discussion and brings what I aimed to be a genuine inter-faith discourse down a level.

I don't understand how you can be the judge of your son being 'right ' with God-especially as he expressed the desire to be baptised.


RevLady profile image

RevLady 6 years ago from Lantana, Florida

Sorry aguasilver, your decision with your son was not in my thoughts when I wrote the above response. I was just sharing my thoughts on infant baptism in general.

Forever His,


50 Caliber profile image

50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

Brother John, My Dad tried to hold me back from Baptism for the same reasons you state as the basis of your son waiting. I believe he was right in doing so as now I recognize after thought that it was out of peers doing it and a kid likes to be with the in crowd. Now I have the hope of being Baptized again into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I await the opportunity to be Baptized by one or two that have recognizable good fruits as I feel it matters who Baptizes one as well as ones heart being in the right state.


Judah's Daughter profile image

Judah's Daughter 6 years ago from Roseville, CA

I have three hubs that talk about water baptism, pointing out that water baptism is that of repentance, not salvation. The baptism into Christ (the baptism of the Spirit) is what saves and seals us. The thief on the cross was saved that very moment, yet was never water baptized. The three hubs on this subject are "Water to Wine: More Than A Miracle", "Religion Versus Salvation" and "John and Jesus: About Baptism". I pray all who read are blessed in His Name.


Just Passing Thru 6 years ago

Hey bro, you are right on!

Let me ask you, “How do you know what you know?”

Is it because you read Scripture and the Holy Spirit expounded it?

I believe so, John tells us we don’t need any man to teach us (with human wisdom) because the Holy Spirit living inside of us will teach us all things.

That is why we know what we know, when that happens we say we “own” that verse and no one can take it away from us, like we know Jesus is God, when we are taught by the Holy Spirit, then no one can take it away from us.

As for your doubts at the beginning, that’s the same old MO Satan used in the Garden, he’s sending people to say, “Did God really say that?”

Bro you are right on, here is some more ammunition, Mark 16:16 Jesus told His disciples to go into the world and preach the Gospel, “Those that believe are to be baptized.” It’s believing first and then baptism, certainly babies and some young children don’t know how to believe, He then goes on to say those that don’t believe are lost, baptism isn’t even mentioned.

Jewish circumcision didn’t have any spiritual worth, Paul tells us that, it was just a rite of initiation, so too Christian baptism, the immersing of the human body in water, is just a rite of initiation to show identification with the Body of Christ, it is quite possible that people are filled with the Holy Spirit afterwords and it is possible that they are not.

The Old Testament illustration of this is the crossing of the Red Sea, it is an illustration or symbol or type of water baptism, however they didn’t have faith in God so they wandered in the wilderness for forty years until that unbelieving generation died off. This Old Testament story substantiates you theory of baptizing your son before he understood or believed as Jesus put it.

The thief on the cross was saved in the last hours of his life, there wasn’t any time for him to be baptized, he didn’t have the opportunity to be filled with the Holy Spirit and participate in the work of the Church. So to with people that are in the Church and are not baptized, they’re in rebellion to what Jesus said to do, they have the Holy Spirit ‘in’ them, but they will not have the Holy Spirit come ‘upon’ them to do the work of and in the church.

Gene


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Gene I thank you for your kind observations.

“How do you know what you know?”

I was blessed to have a couple of years study time when I came to faith, and once I read that we were to eat the scroll, I took it literally, when I saw we were to study to be approved, it took root in my heart, and finding Jeremiah and the instruction to be a prophet to the nations confirmed that God wanted believers to speak out His word loud and clearly.

I love the Word, both written and as Christ!

Thanks for dropping in, will you sign up and write as well?


Just Passing Thru 6 years ago

Ah yes bro, we are commanded to eat the scroll, and what does it say will happen?

It will be sweet in the mouth, but bitter in the stomach and that is exactly what has happened here.

When Jeremiah said he wouldn’t speak anymore it became like fire in his bones, and if we try and hold in what has been given to us it becomes like fire in our bones so we share, but not everyone receives it, they disagree with the Truth, which causes it to become bitter in our stomachs.

What do you mean sign up, …I that I was. Write? Like you do? I would have to pray about that. What would I write about and I don’t know if I have the time, I have a full time job and a part time, no that isn’t right, I have a ministry that doesn’t take as much of my time as my job does, but the two added together keeps me busy.

Gene


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Gene,

Yes, do pray about it.

It could be just a coincidence that you passed this way, or could it be a Godincidence?

Your comments are more succinct than most peoples articles.

What made you turn these pages?

Anyhow, whether you write or not, stay in touch when you are passing, and when you get the chance, if God leads you that way, cast an eye over some of my other hubs and proof read me scripturally.... you also seem to have eaten the scroll!

John


Just Passing Thru 6 years ago

Buena días John,

I don't believe in coincidences or accidents in God's universe, if there was just one then He wouldn't be Dieu Tout-puissant or God Almighty.

I was led here from a bbq forum and started looking around, when ever I see Christian threads I'm drawn like a moth to flame.

I'm humbled by your words and I'll look at your other hubs but from what you wrote here and the other places I've seen your name I don't think they need any proof reading, you're teaching the Truth.

Gene


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Gene,

Thank you my friend and brother, you are the second brother I have made friends with here, we must stay awhile and fellowship in spirit if not in the body.

....and you are the other one Dusty :o)


Shelly Bryant profile image

Shelly Bryant 6 years ago from Singapore and/or Shanghai

Another interesting connection - the Greek word was used for "sink" (as in a sinking ship), and sometimes for drowning.

Adds some layers to the notion of putting sin to death, doesn't it?


Just Passing Thru 6 years ago

Wow! Thank you John, that means a lot to me, I'm on the other side of the world from you and for the last twenty years I have been isolated from any brothers or sisters who follow Christ or believe that God said in His Word what HE meant and from anyone that wanted to share what the Lord has taught them in His Word, ...like you have done here.

Anyone can copy and paste Bible verses and give their opinion, but never back it up with how the Lord is working out their salvation and sanctification in their lives, becoming conformed into the image of the Lord.

It's very refreshing to see doctrine expounded from life choices that have been made in faith from His Word and as time passes see the Lord honor His Word in our lives and then give glory to God by sharing the experience so that others can be blessed, ...that my friend and brother is teaching the Bible.

I've started reading some of your other hubs so that I can receive more from you and be blessed, rather than be giving out all of the time, thanks for the koinonia.

Gene


Chief Apathetic 6 years ago

But what about the Baptism of Fire? In reality Jesus stated there would be two types of people. Those who heard his sayings & kept them, and those who heard his sayings & did not keep them.

Once one has learned them they don't have to debate them they merely need keep them.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 6 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi CA,

"In reality Jesus stated there would be two types of people. Those who heard his sayings & kept them, and those who heard his sayings & did not keep them."

Precisely, but unfortunately both exist in the church as well, when in effect only those who keep them belong there!

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