Disputes About the LAW

AVOID Foolish Controversies!

The Apostle Titus said in 3:9, “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.” However, I will post this hub, if it might help the inquirer and others that are indoctrinated as she. Understand, then, that I will not continue to dispute the truth with those who refuse it. The following is a comment left by a Gentile who believes a truly saved person would keep the Law of Moses. Her name is Heather Bennett. I will begin the hub with her comment left on my Judah’s Daughter hub called “The END of the OLD Covenant” (if you click on the title of the hub, you can read it for yourself). May Jesus Christ be praised.

Heather Bennett Wrote:

The ten commandments you talk about are not actually commandments. They are ten sayings, or ten words, or ten things, but they are not commandments. Command, in Hebrew, is mitzvah. The Hebrew word dabar means word, saying, or thing. It does not mean commandment, and is only translated as such 20 of the over 1400 times it is used in Scripture (in the KJV). Most of the time, dabar is translated as word, showing that the true meaning is known and acknowledged. The word used in Exodus 20:6 is mitzvah. This means that we are expected to keep God’s mitzvah, and since keeping His mitzvah is included in the “ten commandments you advocate keeping, it would be logical for you to also advocate keeping God’s mitzvah. The ten “commandments” you advocate keeping are really “words” or “dabar”, but one of these words is to keep God’s “mitzvah.” So you rightly believe that we must keep these ten, but included in the ten “dabar” are a multitude of other “mitzvah.”

Torah is the Hebrew word for Law. The Hebrew word eduwth is translated as testimony in the verses you discuss.

Exodus 24:12 – While on the mount, Moses received the tables of stone, which included the law (torah) and commandments (mitzvah). The word “and” is not in the original, and should not be included. He was instructed to teach these things to the people. Torah is not from Moses, but from God. Like we call much of the “New Testament” the “books of Paul,” yet we know that what is written therein is actually from God. So the first five books of the Bible are called the “books of Moses,” but we should realize that what is written therein is from God.

Leviticus 4:2 – breaking a commandment (mitzvah) of God is a sin. This is not one of the ten, which are dabar, but it is included in the ten via Exodus 20:6.

We find in Numbers 15:15-16 that there shall be one law (torah) for Israel and for the Gentile who travels with them forever. Forever, not just until Messiah comes.

Please look at Leviticus 26:46 and 27:34. Here we read that these are the commandments (torah) which God commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai. The previous verses, about which this statement is made, are not from the ten “commandments.” So the ten that you uphold are not the entirety of what was given to Moses on the Mountain, and many things which are called the “Law of Moses” were actually given as commandments (mitzvah) by God to Moses on Sinai, and we are, as we have seen, expected to keep God’s mitzvah (Exodus 20:6).

Deuteronomy 1:3-5 also says that the law (torah) that Moses gave the people was from God.

Deuteronomy 26:16-17 – God commanded His people to keep all the commandments they had just received from Moses. This includes far more than just what is in the ten. This theme continues in chapter 27, verse 26.

Deuteronomy 28:1 – the commands (mitzvah) that Moses commanded to the people were God’s commands, not Moses’.

Even if the torah was from Moses (and we have seen that it was not), it was still meant to be obeyed by Israel. In Joshua 1:1, 7-8 says that God Himself told Joshua to do according to all the law (torah) that Moses had commanded.

Now this is really important – Joshua 8:31-32 describes the actions of Joshua. He wrote upon the stones of the altar a copy of the “law of Moses,” as it was commanded in the “book of the law of Moses.” But where do we find this command? And what, exactly, did Joshua write on the stones? We find the answer in Deuteronomy. Moses tells the people to build the altar and write on it the words of the Law (Deuteronomy 27:3 & 8). What Law were they to write? The decrees and Laws that God commanded (Deuteronomy 26:16-18). So, in Deuteronomy we find that the laws are God’s Laws, but in Joshua, we find that these same laws are called the “Law of Moses.”

We find in Joshua 22:4, that it is said that Moses gave land to the people. But, of course, we know that in reality, it was God who gave them the land. So God gave it to the people through Moses. Sometimes, perhaps simply as a short-cut, it is said that Moses gave it. The same is true, as we have seen, about the Law. In the next verse, the people are being told to do the law which Moses gave, even though the laws which follow obviously came from God.

In Joshua 23:6-7 we find the same situation as above – something is called the book of the law of Moses, but it is then made clear that the law (torah) given was from God, not from Moses.

1 Kings 2:3 – the people were commanded to guard what was from God, God’s commands (mitzvah) and His testimonies (eduwth), as it is written in the book of the Law of Moses.

2 Kings 14:6 – what is written in the book of the law of Moses as God commanded.

2 Kings 21:8 – God Himself does not make a distinction between His commands and the commands that Moses gave the people. The word “and” does not belong in this verse. It suggests a difference between God’s commands and the law Moses gave, but this distinction does not exist in the original language. The final words are these – shamar (to keep) asah (to do) tsavah (to command) torah (the law) ebed (servant) mosheh (Moses) tsavah (to command). Keep and do what I commanded in the law that Moses commanded.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 – I know that what God does is forever: nothing is added nor taken away. Again we find that it is forever, not just until Messiah comes.

In Jeremiah 44:23 we find both law and testimony. Sinning comes because one does not walk in God’s law (torah) nor His testimonies (eduwth). This shows a distinction between the two, and equal status for both.

There are others, but I trust that I have give enough examples to show that the distinction between the “Law of Moses” and the “Law of God” is not as clear cut as you believe. I suggest that when the phrase “the book of the Law of Moses” is used, it is not saying that the law is from Moses, but that the book is from Moses (as in he wrote it). He wrote only what God commanded Him to write.

I do not believe that keeping the Law can in any way bring salvation. Salvation is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But the same was true in the time of the Patriarchs (Hebrews 11, specifically verse 13). Salvation has always been by faith. Never has keeping the Law earned someone salvation. Keeping the Law is not the way to salvation, but the response to salvation. After one receives salvation, one should seek to please God by walking in His commandments. The refusal to do so can lead to the loss of one’s salvation. My “religion” is the same as the majority of Christendom – I believe that salvation comes through faith, and after being saved one should refrain from sinning. The difference is in what we believe sinning is. You believe it is the breaking of the ten words (dabar) of God, I believe it is breaking any of the commandments (mitzvah) of God given in His Holy Word. I do not believe that the laws that the rabbis added are God’s commandments. They are not binding for anyone. Out of curiosity, since you affirm the eternalness of what you call the ten commandments, do I correctly assume that you keep God’s Sabbath, and not man’s Sunday?

If you still disagree with me, I would ask that you would answer this question – if the laws of my country allowed it, would it be a sin for me to marry my brother? If so, why?

The dubar/eduwth of God
The dubar/eduwth of God
"IT IS FINISHED"
"IT IS FINISHED"

My Response

The Hebrew word used for Commandments (as in the 10 Commandments) is had·de·va·rim or devarim, meaning “things or words”, whereby you rightly use the derived word, dabar. However, you clarify that Ex 20:6 uses the word “mitzvah”, which is “commandment”. What does Ex 20:1-17 give us? The 10 Commandments, not the mitzvah of Moses (613 commandments). This is the first Law, the Law of God.

The Devarim of the Covenant was not given at the same time as the mitzvah of Moses. From the word “devarim” comes the Greek word Deuteronomy, meaning “second law”. In Deuteronomy, Moses reminds Israel that the Ten Commandments were actually heard directly from God (see 5:4-5). He then reviews those Ten Commandments (see 5:6-19), the essence of that Covenant. Deuteronomy leaves out almost all of the mitzvah of Moses.

Heather said, “keeping His mitzvah is included in the “ten commandments”. Where???

Heather also said, “Exodus 24:12 – While on the mount, Moses received the tables of stone, which included the law (torah) and commandments (mitzvah).”

Carrie's response: Let’s review the truth here:

Israel became frightened at Mt.Sinai and begged Moses to act as their mediator:

"When you heard the voice out of the darkness, while the mountain was ablaze with fire, you came up to me... and said... Let us not die, for this fearsome fire will consume us... you go closer and hear all that God says, and then you tell us everything that God commands, and we will willingly do it..." (5:20-26).

God granted their request (see 5:25-26), and then He informed Moses of the new plan:

"Go, say to them, 'Return to your tents.' But you remain here with Me, and I will give you the mitzvah, chukim and mishpatim... for them to observe in the land that I am giving them to possess..." (5:27-30).

Therefore, you can see that the Law of God (eduwth) and the Law of Moses (Torah) are separate (though, as you've pointed out, both sets are also called mitzvah or commandments). The Law of Moses is not for spiritual Israel, those who are made righteous by the New Covenant, which is in the blood of Yeshua alone (Romans 11). The Covenant is eternal and does not change; the requirements of the Covenant changed from Old to New.

Heather said, “Ecclesiastes 3:14 – I know that what God does is forever: nothing is added nor taken away. Again we find that it is forever, not just until Messiah comes.”

Carrie's response: Jesus Himself said in Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John [the Baptist]; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.”

Paul said in Gal 3:19, “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator [Moses], until the seed [Messiah] would come to whom the promise had been made.”

Heather said, “I do not believe that keeping the Law can in any way bring salvation. Salvation is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But the same was true in the time of the Patriarchs (Hebrews 11, specifically verse 13).”

Carrie's response: Those patriarchs listed in Hebrews 11 lived long before the mitzvah were given. We are restored to the requirement of the original Covenant ~ by faith alone. The Law is not of faith (Gal 3:12), and as Heb 11 tells you, without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore, your statement, “Keeping the Law is not the way to salvation, but the response to salvation. After one receives salvation, one should seek to please God by walking in His commandments” is not truth.

Furthermore, Heather went on to state, “The refusal to do so can lead to the loss of one’s salvation.”

Carrie's response: What does Paul say in Gal 2:21? “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." If anything, you are nullifying the New Covenant of grace by turning to the Old.

Heather asked, “Out of curiosity, since you affirm the eternalness of what you call the ten commandments, do I correctly assume that you keep God’s Sabbath, and not man’s Sunday?”

Carrie's response: I answer you with the same statement Paul made to the saved Gentiles in Colossai in 2:16-17 “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Also in Rom 14:5 “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.”

Heather then asked, “If you still disagree with me, I would ask that you would answer this question – if the laws of my country allowed it, would it be a sin for me to marry my brother? If so, why?”

Carrie's response: The Law of Moses was a tutor to lead us to Christ. If we must rely on the tutor, we would say that to marry one’s brother is a sin. Gal 3:24-25 “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

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16 comments

Heather Bennett 6 years ago

Actually, I do not choose to worship with Messianic Jews. I go to the church in which I grew up. I said that I have gone to a synagogue, but I do not go there now. I do not agree with some of the Messianic beliefs, so I saw no reason to continue to attend.

You say that you will not continue to dispute with me. Does this mean that you will not answer if I respond to questions you asked in your reply?

I have no desire to argue, however, if you really wish to teach and learn, you will have to discuss things with people who do not agree with you. If you refuse to converse with people who disagree with you, then you will spend all you time simply agreeing with those around you, never being challenged. You also cannot truly teach anyone unless you are willing to address their questions, including questions that challenge what you believe.

As convinced as you are that you are right, I am convinced that I am right. I actually came to my conclusions while studying to dispute a Sabbath-keeper. I found, to my astonishment, that I was wrong. Before my revelation, I had only spoken to one Messianic, and only once for a short time. Believe it or don't but I was not indoctrinated by anyone (except by the church in which I was raised). In fact, the more I research, the more my beliefs are affirmed. So you see me as unwilling to see the truth, and I see you as unwilling to see the truth. I hope that you are at least willing to defend your beliefs by having an honest, fair debate with someone who disagrees with you.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Heather Bennett, what I said is I will not dispute about the Law. If you have questions because you are willing to grow, we can discuss this. The Bible is clear about this issue. Someone influenced you, and it was this "Sabbath-keeper"? I agree that churches, whether Jewish or Christian, indoctrinate those who attend them. There are not many that teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth ~ because they, too have been indoctrinated. Only the Spirit of God can set us free from this.

I, like you, almost got pulled into seventh-day Sabbath keeping (as a Law of God), because Jesus kept the Sabbath and so did His Jewish apostles. However, the Day of Pentecost happened on the first day of the week. God knows the motives of those who worship on Sunday. I personally, don't choose a day of the week to worship, for everyday is a day of worship for me. Jesus kept the Law of Moses ~ and, as I said in one of my comments to you, it was to complete them perfectly, to fulfill them. He was born as and lived as a Jew. He is the King of the Jews. We, as Gentiles are grafted in, but not to the Law. Those who refuse Yeshua and the New Covenant in His blood are branches that are cut off from the cultivated olive tree (Rom 11). They must repent, as grafted-in Gentiles do, to belong to that tree. Yeshua is the ROOT, not the Jews (Rev 22:16). He is the Vine; believers are the branches (John 15:5).

I have a hub called "Statement of Faith" that I wrote to state my beliefs based on my own personal study (i.e. I don't believe in a trinity any longer). I've spent hours debating the Old Covenant with those who are Jewish, Messianic Jews, and a couple of Gentiles ~ you and one other, who've been swayed. I've done my due diligence, if you ask me. You've read three of my hubs, and now this one ~ and I'm glad you did. If the Word doesn't show you any error of your ways, then your eyes are not open to see it. I am not to be a stumbling block to you; God knows your heart, and that's what He bases His righteous judgment on. I've spent time answering you, which took most of my morning ~ in responding to all of your comments ~ but God loves you and He placed it on my heart to answer you.

If you notice this profile, this is where I've spent hours and hours debating doctrines of error. One can hardly say I simply turn a deaf ear or only accept comments from those who agree. I have learned, however, that I don't HAVE to engage in debate; I will only answer if God tells me to.

And this is word the Lord laid on my heart for you just now: Those who walk in the shadow have turned their back to the Light.


exjwlaurie 6 years ago

Excellent hub Sister Carrie!

The research your have brought forth here--is as always "spot-on". And I certainly know of you, that you will never fail to defend TRUTH, to a person who seeks 'the TRUTH'...not just debate. I so respect you for that! You respond to people as your are led to by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus came and fulfilled the 'old law covenant' perfectly! And, it was cancelled upon his death on the cross( Col 2:13-15).

Christ paid the penalty for us, to release us from Adamic sin. And he also released us from the burden of the 'legalism' of the old law covenant.

Instead, God wrote his laws upon our hearts, so that true born-again believers, who are "in Christ" will do 'by nature' the things of the law. No written and legalistic law is necessary, for those who are in Christ--HE is our vindicator! Romans 2:14-15 also; Heb 10:9,16

"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have been sought for another....By calling this covenant "new" he has made the first one obsolete..." Hebrews 8:6,7,13.

We are so very blessed to be in the New Covenant, which replaced the old. We are not to return to the things "behind", but as Christian followers, we are to press forward to the things ahead. Phil 3:13

Thank you Carrie, for this awesome hub! I am again--edified by your comprehensive research on this topic!


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Ah, my sister Laurie! Bless you and your words of truth, as I pray those still enslaved (by choice) to the Law of Moses (mitvot) will understand Heb 8 with clarity! The law is against us (Col 2:14); Christ, our God and Savior (2 Pet 1:1), is for us! And if God be for us, who or what can stand against us? (Rom 8:31).

Gal 5:1 "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."

John 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

God bless you, dear one. I love you with the love of the Lord!!


ShadowKing! 6 years ago

Yes, debating about the Law & commandments ends in frustration and idiocy. To keep the Law, to not keep the Law--only Jesus will officially settle this dispute.

However, "keeping the Sabbath day (the 7th Day of the Week) holy" is an "utterance" that God said will be eternal. Any attempts to rhetorically discredit this clear biblical utterance is simply the act of denial. As far as Paul's words about "one day" this or "one day" that--someone can twist them to support the Saturday (discredit Sunday) just like someone can twist them to support Sunday (discredit Saturday).

Regardless of interpretations, it all boils down to this: what is so bad is obeying the "10 Commandments?"


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Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

People seem to feel made righteous in the keeping of the Law, when it's the heart God cares about. Some of the most evil people keep the 10 Commandments in its letter, yet break every one of them in the heart. Read Mat 19:17-22 and Mat 5:27-28. What good is keeping a seventh day Sabbath when one has a whole myriad of beliefs that are unbiblical? Well, maybe keeing the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week will 'get me God's approval' or 'get me in'. God knows the heart, as I said, and that's what needs to be saved and submit to His will. Therefore, if one feels he should keep a Sabbath on the seventh day, do so. If one feels he should to keep a Sabbath on the first day, do so. If one feels he is not to observe a literal Sabbath, but a spiritual one in his heart in Christ Jesus every day, so be it.


ShadowKing! 6 years ago

Believe me I understand your point. Some of it I agree with. Some people professing the keeping of the law are just a bunch of "blah, blah, blah." But as a logical thinking person I cannot fanthom how a divine "law-giving King" can have a systematic "Kingdom" and not have any LAWS to govern it. I highly doubt a supreme intelligent-thinking "Prince" does not have LAWS and offices associated with His "conquering kingdom."

I'm not a staunch, self-righteous advocate of "the Law" but I do believe "obeying God's laws" are part of a larger group of prerequisites for ENTERING His "lawfully-ran kingdom." Common sense begs a wise person to consider the lowest common denominator within the essence of an "eternal kingdom." And that is--every kingdom MUST have laws governing its natural functions in order for it to remain in power. Jesus mean by "a house divided cannot stand" that a "kingdom divided cannot function properly, smoothly, effectively."

But regardless of how someone else may disagree, I won't lose any sleep over it. Neither should you, which I know you don't. Thank you for allowing my input.

xxx the ShadowKing...!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 6 years ago from Manhattan Author

Yes, ShadowKing ~ the Law of Moses is a tutor for those who need one, but God indeed writes His Law upon our hearts; we have a conscience that is not seared from knowing right and wrong. We submit to His will and guidance. He is the Maker of the Law and when we know Him, we will be transformed into His image. One day the saints will rule over the earth, as it was in the beginning. He will give us the knowledge and we will do it, as we do today. This is the walk of faith ~ and the righteous shall live by faith, for it is by faith we are saved. Be blessed!!


D.Virtual.Doctor profile image

D.Virtual.Doctor 5 years ago from Europe

woooow! What can I say? You are simply an inspiration Carrie Bradshaw. Here in your accolades I can see that you have published more than 50 hubs but I can only view 19 here, where are the rest. Please I need to have access to reading them as well, cos the spiritual nourishments I could get from them all is not something I should miss. I cannot imagine missing it at all. So please do well to send me the link if they are in another hub of yours..

Thanks for such a hub...

God bless you

Cheers!


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

I praise God for His encouragement and blessings from you, D.Virtual.Doctor! Thank you and bless your heart. Here is the link to my other profile, which does not have this same picture, but that of the Lion of Judah and His little lamb...I pray that is me, as I go in His name. Judah's Daughter is my name: http://hubpages.com/profile/Judah%27s+Daughter...

I do pray you continue to be blessed and grow with any challenges that are shown through those hubs, as God has been growing me and revealing things to me that are sometimes NOT what the traditional doctrines of men had indoctrinated me with...go in peace, joy and love, for Great is His Faithfulness to those who love Him! God bless you abundantly.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

None of your business 5 hours ago (I will post a portion of his comment, but leave out the ad hominem):

"Carrie", obviously you don't believe in ALL of the bible. You being an evangelist and a WOMAN, should know that women are to be silent in the church. If you truly believed in god's word you would know that. Women are to be SILENT: 1 Corinthinans 14:34-35 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."

ANSWER: The word for "woman" here is "gunaikas", as used in Eph 5:25 "Husbands [andres] love your wives [gunaikas]" Now, read this passage in context. Do you see "ask their own HUSBANDS at home"?

Were there wives who were prophetesses in the Bible, even apostles? Absolutely. Do your own study, for I will not labor for one who is under God's judgment by choice.


lifegate profile image

lifegate 5 years ago from Pleasant Gap, PA

Carry on, Sister. Truth doesn't need to be defended. It just is. Thanks.


Carrie Bradshaw profile image

Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

For sure, brother. Satan seeks to deceive those whom God may have called and even chosen. I will witness and pray freedom in Christ become manifest to those precious ones. He told us in the Word to go first to the Jew ~ so I will reasonably minister to them in clear conscience before my Lord. God bless you ~ and I so thank you for your support, lifegate!!


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

For those commenters that continually pressure me about keeping the seventh-day Sabbath...I've done my homework and invite you to read the results:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Remember-t...

If it helps...if you refuse to 'see', it is your choice.


lionswhelp profile image

lionswhelp 5 years ago

Bravo Carrie! Jesus loves woman risk takers for God. As for those that think woman should be "silent" you need to read my new hubs based on J. Lee Grady's book "Twenty Five Tough Questions About Women and the Church." Also a copy of J. Lee Grady's "Ten Lies The Church Tells Woman," would be a great help to you that doubt the ability of women. Jesus Christ had only kind encouraging words for women. He was not nasty and condemning to them the way the Pharisees and Sadduces were. He called many to his ministry in the NT to be gifted by the Holy Sirit, 1 Peter 2:4-10, Acts 2:17-18,Ephesians 4:3-13, 1 Corinthians 12:3-4.


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Carrie Bradshaw 5 years ago from Manhattan Author

Well lionswhelp, NO ONE can get around the FACT that the FIRST person Jesus appeared to after His resurrection was.....Mary. And what was His command to her? "GO AND TELL MY DISCIPLES!" Why did He NOT go to His male disciples and have THEM tell Mary? Likewise, He spoke to the 'dirty Samaritan' woman at the well...knowing full well SHE would go into Samaria and TELL them she had met the LORD!! There's SO much on the value of women in the Word. There is NO distinction, the Bible says (1 Cor 11:11-12 and so many more passages)!! We are all ONE in Christ Jesus and He will use any vessel willing to spread the good news!!! AMEN!!

I invite you and anyone else to enjoy my study on this subject: "Liberty for Women in Christ" http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Your-Daugh...

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