Do we have any scientific proof that Jesus existed or is it just our faith?

Sure, there's mountains of evidence for the historical life of a man named Jesus of Nazareth. (Interestingly enough, no one ever seems to have denied the historicity of Jesus until around the 18th or 19th centuries.) In particular, there were a number of writers in ancient Rome and Israel, who lived at the same time as Jesus or shortly thereafter, who wrote on the man-vs.-God controversy while it was first going on. I won't go through all of them, but here are a few notes:

Josephus

One of the most famous of these writers is Flavius Josephus, a historian born A.D. 37. A Pharisee, he commanded the Jewish forces fighting against their Roman conquerors in A.D. 66, and was captured when Galilee fell and Jerusalem was razed. In The Antiquities of the Jews, xviii.3.3, written around A.D. 93 or 94, he wrote:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day."

An Arabic translation of this passage reads:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (He) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Tacitus

Another ancient historian was Cornelius Tacitus, born sometime between A.D. 52 and 57 (no one seems to agree on this). He was the Roman governor of Asia and the son-in-law of the governor of Britain, and to him we owe much of our knowledge of the Roman emperors, including Tiberius, Claudius, and Nero. In his Annals, first dating from around A.D. 117, he wrote:

"Christus, the founder of the name [Christians], was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius." Annals xv.44

Martyr

Justin Martyr, born A.D. 100 in Palestine, called himself a Samaritan but was probably of Greek or Roman ancestry. A well-educated philosopher, he studied the doctrines of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, and the Stoics, but decided Christianity was the only philosophy that was "safe and profitable." When forced to defend his beliefs to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, he referred the emperor to the report written by Pontius Pilate at the time of Jesus' crucifixion for details of the incident--a report which Martyr presumed must have been on file in the imperial archives but which has unfortunately been lost through the centuries. Martyr, of course, was killed for his beliefs.

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AdsenseStrategies profile image

AdsenseStrategies 8 years ago from CONTACT ME at Adsensibilities@gmail.com

Yes this is exactly right. It is my understanding that there is, relatively speaking, a mountain of evidence for the existence of Jesus.

This is not however so for all biblical figures. Anyone prior to Kings David and Solomon may have existed, but the extra-biblical evidence is not there (this does not mean they did not exist, only that they are only attested to by the Hebrew Scriptures and, much later, the Greek New Testament and the Qur'an.)

Up until recently it was more-or-less certain that David and Solomon existed (especially given that Solomon is said to have instigated the building of the first ever Great Temple to YHWH in Jerusalem), but of late doubt has even been cast on the non-biblical evidence for these two figures.

Interestingly, in New Testament scholarship, when it comes to Saint Paul, noone disputes his existence, but many scholars (most?) dispute that he wrote all of the letters attributed to him.

Ultimately I find it fascinating that Judaism, Christianity and Islam (their followers collectively referred to as The People of the Book) really rather need at least the major figures of the Bible (plus Mohammed) to have existed, in a way not perhaps true, for example for Buddhists and Buddha, as here it is the teachings themselves that are central (arguably this may be true for Mohammed and Muslims also). Technically, despite many varied ways of actually being Christian or Jewish in practice, on the other hand, Christianity without the existence of Jesus, or Judaism without the existence of Abraham, Moses and Jacob do not make much sense theologically speaking, as for these two groups, at least theoretically, their religion is based on a "salvation history" the details of which are quite important.

Well, that's my two cents worth. Come take a look at my own hubs if you feel like it.

David

http://hubpages.com/@adsensestrategies


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

It's absolutely true that Christianity only makes sense if Jesus Christ existed. Thankfully for Christians, there really can't be much doubt about that, at least.

Thanks for the invite. I'm heading to work now, but I'll check your Hubs tonight, David. See you then!


AdsenseStrategies profile image

AdsenseStrategies 8 years ago from CONTACT ME at Adsensibilities@gmail.com

No problem!


Paul Felix 8 years ago

Hi cherylthewriter I think all the evidence we need is all around us today common sence evidence interesting hub please come check my hubs out I also have a curiosity on the matter as well!


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Also true, Paul Felix. But sometimes historical evidence matters more to people who don't trust their own senses.


stevemark122000 profile image

stevemark122000 8 years ago from Southern California

Interesting hub! Lots of good information here, thanks.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

You're welcome, stevemark122000. Glad you enjoyed it.


jedgrey 8 years ago

As a former atheist one of the things that challenged my intellectual honesty was the mountain of evidence (non-biblical) that is readily available. Good job, so much info well condensed and presented.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Thanks, jedgrey. The historical evidence really is overwhelming. We didn't even get into the archaeological part.


Stooge profile image

Stooge 8 years ago

Cheryl, thanks for the hub on my request. Sorry for not responding early. I was off HP for a good 4 days.

To start with, I am not a non-believer. I just felt like knowing more if I am ever drawn in a debate with non-believers.

Let me congratulate you for the excellently prsented information in a very condensed style. I am sure to use these instances in future in my conversations. However, when I said scientific proofs, I actually meant archaeological, forensic and other such incidences. Personally, I am not a big believer in proofs recorded in historical books because as they say, "History is written by the winners". Still, I am not taking anything away from the historians or those who believe in them.

Can I request you to do a second hub with evidences that I am interested in? Will be looking forward to it eagerly. Thanks again for a superb hub.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

In the case of the ancient Israelites and Romans, history was written by both the winners and losers, but what they wrote validates the existence of Jesus. The Romans defeated Israel in A.D. 66 and razed Jerusalem to the ground, killing thousands. That was when the nation of Israel ceased to exist, and it didn't reappear for 1900 years.

The Romans, and many of the "establishment" Israelites, including Josephus, did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, which is why their testimony concerning his historicity is so compelling. If nothing else, Jesus was crucified by the Romans--they had to believe in the fact of his existence, because they ended it. Only the Romans practiced crucifixion at that point in history.

These documents ARE scientific facts. At the time of history when they were first written, the event in question, the death of a man named Jesus of Nazareth, had happened less than one hundred years ago. That's rather like us discussing the death of, say, Queen Victoria of England, or Abraham Lincoln. We KNOW these people existed, so when we discuss them, we simply presume that fact. It was the same way with the ancient Romans and Israelites when they discussed Jesus. They didn't doubt his existence, only his divinity and sometimes his sanity.

If what you're saying is that these documents were rewritten by the Church during the medieval era, sorry, no, they weren't. I believe there are extant copies of these manuscripts that pre-date the rise of the Church. In the case of the Josephus text, note the Arabic (Muslim) translation, which has nothing to do with the Church.


Stooge profile image

Stooge 8 years ago

Cheryl, wow... you are a powerhouse and knowledge bank on the topic. This was a real passionate comment - I can see, it came from within you.

Alright, I am not accusing the historians. I am just saying that I have more faith in archaeological and forensic evidences. Sometimes, ancient books are mysterious and people tend to derive multiple meanings of a particular phrase. I just wish it is not true for the evidences you have presented here.

Having said that, I still hope you will do a second hub on other evidences. Looking forward to it.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Honestly, I have more passion for history and historical evidence. I'm not certain if I truly qualify for being a Christian. But history . . . friend, that's a passion!

The archaeological evidence is more general than the documentary; it validates the historical background of the Bible, such as the locations of cities and when specific rulers governed certain areas, rather than the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth. I personally don't find it as convincing as the documentary stuff. When I find time, I'll get to it, but there's at least three or five Hubs in line first!


Stooge profile image

Stooge 8 years ago

Sure Cheryl, I will wait for it.

By the way, what is your take on the miracles asoociated with Jesus? Could they be true or just fiction along with truth? To rephrase, if Jesus existed then how did he perform those miracles, because scientifically speking they are impossible. Again, I believe in Jesus, but I love to know the facts too.


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Stooge, may I suggest a couple resources for you by former atheists Josh McDowell "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" or for an easier read, "More than a Carpenter;" and "A Case for Christ"... right now the author's name is eluding me...he used to be a reporter in Chicago...suppose if you google the title you'll find it or maybe Cheryl or a fellow hubber can help me out!


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Found it, it's Lee Strobel who is the author of "A Case for Christ."

So Stooge, haven't you ever witnessed or heard testimony from someone you know regarding miracles? Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever! There are followers of His that are - through the power of the Holy Spirit that lives in us who believe and receive - vessels through which miracles occur every day.....there are all kinds of medical doctors who have seen terminally ill patients miraculously recover and they can't explain it...it's because of people praying for healing. There isn't more media coverage on this because the world hates Jesus and doesn't want to see Him glorified. I have another book suggestion by an army chaplain who served in Iraq who witnessed bullet holes passing through soldiers helmets and no penetration to soldiers heads! The book is called, "A Table in the Presence." Check out Reinhard Bonnke who is an evangelist ministering in Africa - through him, God is raising people from the dead. When I was on tour in Israel, while we were in Jerusalem, one of my friends was feeling very ill and thought she was going to be spending the rest of our time there in her hotel room, or worse.....I layed my hands on her, began praying and commanded a spirit of infirmity to leave - in the name of Jesus Christ - and it lifted instantaneously and she continued on, full of joy and testifies about it to this day. Yes, miracles happen all the time and remember our battle is not one against flesh and blood, it's spiritual. Satan wants to steal kill and destroy those that God loves (everyone, but his attacks come hardest against those who minister in the name of Jesus Christ).


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

More Than a Carpenter is also Josh McDowell. A Case for Christ is by Lee Strobel, according to Amazon. There's also Jesus: The Evidence, by Ian Wilson, which is a tour of the documentary and archeological evidence, but it's a tough read and I admit lost me partway through.

Miracles, well, I don't currently HAVE a take on them, Stooge. That's one of many points I'm still considering, and I'm a slow thinker on theoretical subjects. All I can say at this point in time is that there's a lot of stuff that's supposedly impossible that happens every day. Did you know that aeronautically speaking, it's impossible for a bumblebee to fly?


Stooge profile image

Stooge 8 years ago

Well... I am glad I kept the tone of my comments as challenging and that of a non-believer. Otherwise, I would not have got such great replies. Christine, your comment is a gem and I have even saved it in a diary. Probably many would just laugh off some of it (e.g. you commanded a spirit of infirmity to leave) but I am sure such miracles happen. The more I think over it, the more I get purturbed by the lack of one argument that can put end to all the doubts over the existence or greatness of Jesus. One argument, that comes good on all the fronts - technology, faith, history, forensic, archaeology - no loop hole anywhere. Something which is good enough for everybody - even the non believers.

Cheryl, I am surely going to read at least one of these. I don't why, but I have been thinking about this recently. And no, I did not know aeronautically speaking, it's impossible for a bumblebee to fly. I guess, that is one more reason why I SHOULD NOT trust only in scientific evidences.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Another interesting resource is the Reasons to Believe organization, a collection of PhDs who evaluate, compare, and contrast Christianity and science. Stooge, do a search.

Okay, I have to ask: what's your excellent reason?


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

Cheryl, great hub. You're probably going to hate me, so I won't be offended if you don't reply. I do not believe in God and abhor religion but, ironically enough, have never doubted the existance of Jesus of Nazareth. I mean, somewhere at the base of all the myth, exaggeration, and outright fibs, there's got to be someone, with a beautiful message, that started all this that actually existed.

So, I guess for me the challenge would not be to show proof that Jesus lived, but prove that he was the son of God... ANY god.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Constant Walker, with my own inherent lack of belief and distaste (not abhorrence) of religious controversy, I'll never throw stones and I'll certainly never hate you. With your interesting profile, you sound like a fascinating person; have you ever listened to Al Stewart music? Just out of curiosity.

Proving Jesus to be the son of God is something I haven't even managed to do with myself. As I find the theory of evolution to be laughable, I have to believe there's someone or some force out there that brought life into being. But as I commented to Stooge, with me, theory is a slow process, and I'll probably still be thinking on this topic when I'm hauled out of this world by my scruff.

Thanks for weighing in.


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

Thank you for the nice words:  Wow, "interesting" and "fascinating"?  Not sure I can live up to that.  I've heard some of Al Stewart's music... decades ago.  "Year of the Cat" was one of his hits, right?

Evolution is laughable to a lot of people, mainly religious, right?  But, to me, it makes more sense than being created out of thin air by an all-powerful being, and it's the most intelligent (pun intended) theory I've heard so far... but that could change at any time.  Science, contrary to popular belief, does not claim it's theories to be fact.  Just the most reasonable explination to date.

Besides, if science WERE to suddenly accept the existance of God, your god, that is, it would only lead to more bothersome questions; "OK, so where did God come from, and what was here before Him?  Why did he create the heavens and the Earth?  What else has he created, and why? What is the Lord's Sun sign?  Boxers or briefs, or does God go commando?  Why won't he shave that unruly beard?"

The media would be all over it.  Then, of course, Satan would want his 15 minutes...


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

I don't find evolution to be laughable on religious grounds, but on logical ones. Entropy as part of thermodynamics states that things don't come together, but rather fall apart. A junkyard is not going to assemble itself into a 747, no matter how many thousands of years you wait. Nor will pond sludge organize itself into complex biological processes.

Please read my comment to Stooge, above. I'm not a Christian and do not claim to believe in the Christian God. Not trying to start an argument here, but please don't put words into my mouth, or my computer. And please do not attempt to define MY God for me . . . I can't even do that for myself.

Again, thanks for weighing in.


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

My apologies. Assumed you were a Christian. I didn't read all of the above comments because ...they're long.

So, if you don't believe in evolution, or intelligent design, do you have a theory for how life on Earth came about?


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

No offense taken, Constant Walker. And no, I don't have any answers, any more than science. I just can't believe what we've got so far.


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Another 2 cents. Faith and Science are suppposed to support one another, not be in opposition to one another. I do believe in micro-evolution, changes that occur based on adapting to ones environment. To say we evolved from apes is ludicrous...if that were true, why do any primates still exist today? Or to have evolved from pond scum.....well that sure does wonders for my self esteem! Oh, and are there any transitional fossils to support this type of evolution???

Constantwalker, I love your questions:

"OK, so where did God come from, and what was here before Him? Why did he create the heavens and the Earth? What else has he created, and why? What is the Lord's Sun sign? Boxers or briefs, or does God go commando? Why won't he shave that unruly beard?"

I can attempt to answer a few.

I believe God has always existed, nothing existed before Him (Read Genesis)

He created the Heavens and the earth for us, the heavenly hosts (angels) and of course for Himself because He is omnipresent and desires a relationship w/ every one of us.

Sun sign? Do you mean astrology? Not something that applies to God. In fact He speaks against it (along w/ witchcraft, spirit mediums and the like.... before Christ, when asked what my sign is, I used to say, "Sagitarrius" now I will say 'Jesus is my sign').

Boxers or briefs - LOL! You'll have to see for yourself if you can get an answer from him on that one! If you become His friend, he may tell you, depending on why you want to know (He's a friend to all of us, but it's a processional ladder of intimacy to reach the status where he actually calls us His friend!).

Shaving the beard....when Christ was on earth, as the visible image of the Father, mature men had facial hair in Jewish Culture. Many still do today.

Go commando? Oh He's not unfamiliar w/ battle and will return one day to lead for the ultimate, atop a white horse (this is in Revelation but not a book I encourage anyone to begin their search with!)

Bottom line, there is historical and archaelogical evidence to support Christ's claims. The problem is the distance between the head and the heart....not to say we aren't supposed to have intellect but it's over intellectualizing some things that really get in the way. Some things regarding God truly are mysterious...every individual has to search, seek and discover for themselves. The bible tells us that if one truly seeks God, He will reveal himself to them. I hope Stooge and whoever else here on hubpages chooses to pursue the truth (which will set one free!) will discover for themselves the heart of the Glorious One and the depth of His love. In attempts to comprehend His mind - remember how magnificient and vast He claims to be (which I for one know to be true!). His ways are higher.


Gawn Fishin' profile image

Gawn Fishin' 8 years ago from Vancouver, BC

Hello Cheryl, I liked your hub, but love the debate here in your comments! As a child I was taught Christianity, and now believe there were any number of positive, spiritual, miracle workers. Both before, and after Christ. Most religions have one or more God figure. The Son Of God label, is a great sales pitch, did Jesus call himself that? Or is He just called that in the 'His story' book, referred to as the Bible?

Gawn


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

C.S. Lewis, while still an atheist, said that Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or the son of God. It's an interesting perspective.

You know, the original question dealt with the historicity of Jesus, not the divinity, which I'm not qualified to address. This was never supposed to be a religious debate! (Not picking on you here, Gawn Fishin', just wondering where this is going next.)


Gawn Fishin' profile image

Gawn Fishin' 8 years ago from Vancouver, BC

This makes me think of the saying: Never discuss religion or politics.  Everyone has a different opinion.

Thank you for your comment.


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Cheryl, hope you don't mind. You're numbers have to be going up!

Was it Lewis or McDowell who said that? I think you may be mistaken.....

I agree w/ Gawn Fishin's comment about there being positive, spiritual and miracle working people prior to God's incarnation of himself through Christ.....in fact, there are several mentioned in the Bible.

Jesus referred to himself the most I believe as the Son of Man.....

History truly is "His story." What role are we all called to play??? He has a plan and a purpose for all of us.


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

I'm with Cheryl. The whole religious debate is tiresome, and the religious don't want to hear anything but what's quoted in the Bible, so how can there be discussion? As for fossil evidence of evolution: clearly you haven't looked or you wouldn't have asked that question. The fossil evidence of evolution -of ALL the Earth's flora and fauna, including Man- is in abundance. You've got the world at your fingertips, Christine, access it.

And personally, I think the Lord would be a "commando" guy. He's got the fancy flowing robe (how many of those things has he got, anyway?!), the heavenly breeze - why spoil it with anything?


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Constant Walker, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just share my perspectives based on my discoveries and things that have been revealed. People should be able to do so without hostility. If there is disagreement, agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Duh on my part about the commando thing! NOW I get what you were asking...you could be right.

Regarding the fossils, if you're making reference to neanderthal man (sp?? has been a while since I've looked into that topic so perhaps I need a refresher and will adhere to your suggestion... ) there is more than one suggested theory.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Christine, it was definitely Lewis. McDowell quotes (and paraphrases) his work, but the Oxford and Cambridge don was there first. Lewis pre-dates World War II, while McDowell dates from 1972.

And to be perfectly, squarely honest here, Constant Walker, I have to point out that evolutionists don't always want to see evidence which disproves their theories, either, even though they are only theories. The fossil evidence, like much evidence, can be interpreted in more than one way. The fact is, since no one was there to watch it happen, the what-came-first debate will probably never be really answered


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

Christine, I'm not wanting to argue either. If my comments gave you that impression, I apologize. I tend to express what I feel to be true and/or honest, not always as tactfully as I should. I have no patience for blowing smoke up anyone's dress... or pants. I think it comes with getting older, you know?

Cheryl, you're right, but the abundance of evidence can't be misintepreted by ALL of the scientists, geologists, etc looking at it, can it? There are definitely those who expect all scientists following in their footsteps to be "good Germans" and accept, without question, what has been established, but there is also always a new generation of scientists coming along and questioning everything. It is in this way that science is continually being updated, questioned, re-established, looked at in new light, with new tech, etc.

Christine, and not to be arguementative, but this is precisely the problem with religion - not just yours, any of them: it never has to prove itself. It only has to go on "faith" and "miracles." All those things which one can't really pin down...

And here we are again, debating religion. Ok, I'm done. Thanks for the discussion. It's been fun.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

You're right, CW, it's been fun. Thanks for weighing in with some solid and heart-felt opinions. Even if I don't agree about scientists always questioning everything.


christinekv profile image

christinekv 8 years ago from Washington

Constant Walker, it's all good. I too have a history of being challenged when it comes to tact. I hope you won't be offened by my next comment but early in my Christian walk, in the process of being discipled, I learned a "faith train" illustration that I try to be mindful of....the locomotive beng FACTS, the next car being FAITH and the caboose being FEELINGS. I'm not confident that I will say anything that will prove anything to you.....(reading the scriptures for yourself may have a surprising impact on you however if you approach it humbly). The books I mentioned earlier do a much better job than I and thus the reason for my suggesting them.

Thanks for the comments/exchanges and thanks Cheryl for responding to Stooges request.


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

Christine, you keep offering books from the Bible, but the content of that book (there were many, many more writings which were not included) was picked and chosen by men with an agenda. Even the books which were included, those you recommend, were written by men, thousands of years ago. As inspiring as it may be to you, it's not proof of anything. You know?


Constant Walker profile image

Constant Walker 8 years ago from Springfield, Oregon

Anyways; We aren't going to convince each other of anything - but, the debate is stimulating, ay?


sixtyorso profile image

sixtyorso 8 years ago from South Africa

Religion is at best a thorny road. the debates being played out have been played out over many hundreds of years. As far as creation vs evolution is concerned this was the subject of a much publicised court case in the USA not to mention a couple of movies. Scientific evidence for both creation (Big bang theory, Choas theory Atomic theory) as well as evolution (fossils, Godwana theory of continental drift et al) exist, which does not help the debate. Remember religion is a question of faith and faith is just that.

There is no doubt that a prophet by the name of Jesus existed around AD 37 and there is plenty of evidence, scrolls documents (the so-called nag hammadi or dead sea scrolls) attest to that. But they, in turn, are the words of writers much like our hubs. So nobody can win this fight. we must each choose what we want to believe.

Great thought provoking hub!


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Hello, sixtyorso, and thanks for weighing in.

The documents in question vary in their nature. Josephus and Tacitus were both historians and their works could be equated in nature with those written by Hubbers, although I for one would be SERIOUSLY flattered to find my poor little words included in such company! But Justin Martyr's words were more like testimony given in court or a deposition, not the same thing at all.

There are other documents I didn't mention, including references to Jesus in ordinary letters, written from one Roman to another, that have survived the centuries. Those aren't exactly the same sort of thing either.

The Nag Hammadi papyri, found around 1950 near the Egyptian town of that name, was a collection of fourth-century books, some bound with leather and some loose scraps. It included the Gospel of Thomas, a collection of 114 of Jesus' statements, as well as some later apocryphal works such as the Letter of Peter to Philip, the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Apocalypse of Paul. With the exception of the Gospel of Thomas, which dates to the second century, all of these are rather later works. The Dead Sea Scrolls, on the other hand, date from Jesus' lifetime and are a Hub in themselves.

Your point about the physical evidence being ambiguous is all too true, and when you say that each person must decide what to believe, well, I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks for your encouragement and comments.


sixtyorso profile image

sixtyorso 8 years ago from South Africa

Your commentary is great. well researched. I on the other hand work mostly from memory and my general knowledge but your comments are almost a new hub on their own.


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

If I ever finish the ones I'm working on, I just might go there. Thanks, sixtyorso!


Angel 8 years ago

"Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." -John 20:29


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Agreed, Angel. Unfortunately, there are so many of us who resemble Thomas more than the blessed.


Angel 8 years ago

Yes Cheryl. You are absolutely right. Now we live in a scientific world that look for proofs for each and everything..... All the things in the world cannot be seen and touched... There are somethings we should feel and believe... And the presence of God should be felt with heart....


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

Indeed there are such things, Angel. Again, it's easier to see than to believe.


Ric Reyes profile image

Ric Reyes 8 years ago from Sacramento

I saw this on the request list and was going to respond, but I don't think I could do any better than what you've done here. One thing I've heard (but can't back up) is that we actually have more historical evidence for the resurrection Christ than we do for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. I wish I had hard data for that!


CherylTheWriter profile image

CherylTheWriter 8 years ago from Humble, Texas (the ultimate oxymoron) Author

This line of attack was recently adopted by Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries. Check it out at

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/criteria.htm

It's reeally long and I didn't have time to read all of it, so feel free to let me know your conclusions.

A lot of people seem to be confused as to what constitutes historical evidence as opposed to legal evidence. I'm thinking about doing a Hub on that.


Juliet Christie profile image

Juliet Christie 7 years ago from Sandy Bay Jamaica

This has certainly been a heated debate. But it all boils down to faith and what one  believes. 

 I drive down the road and smash my car. The scientific man may say you were not concentrating. The religious man may say the lord has speared your life  by saving you from a worst situating by delaying you with an accident. Which of the individuals makes me feel better and give me more courage to deal with the situation?

The scientific man and the religious man operate on too different realms one physical and one spiritual .

 


vagelis 7 years ago

Ok guys check out the following web pages and tell me your opinions:http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshal... Dont be shocked,thats the true,i believe in God that created people,not God that people created.


britneydavidson profile image

britneydavidson 7 years ago from united kingdom

great hub...this is really informative and excellent explanation....thanx for sharing....


TJ 7 years ago

To all of you.

What difference does it make what we believe or not. In reality you choose what to believe or not. The only thing I could add to this is that I chose to belive and if I pray my prayers will be answered. A life was saved and spared although medical pracitioners have said it would be impossible for this person to survive. At first they said he would not survive, the next day they stated he would have severe brain damage, but the third day he miraculously were up and about. Jumping up and down with only the scars asfroof o what has happened. Today he is a master in mathematics. All because of what I believe. PRAYER. Many different events happened to me proving that GOD does exist and we should not argue about this. Make your own decisions base on what you desire to believe or not. Do your research for you will never find everything all the evidence supporting science, the Bible, Geology or anything else, for the curious mind will always question everything. Why do most people have a conscious. Because of an internal desire speaking to your heart coming from within you that you cannot explain. Placed there by a bigger power for mankind to question themselves.


TJ 7 years ago

IE. Search for the truth and the truth shall set you free.


Keith 7 years ago

According to my research the vast majority (f not all) of Josephus' writings have been confirmed to be forgeries. Check it out for yourself.


yes2truth profile image

yes2truth 7 years ago from England

"Do we have any scientific proof that Jesus existed or is it just our faith?"

It's not your faith, it's the faith you were given.

Eph 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace and faith are both gifts of God so that no man or woman can boast. Your faith earns you rewards stored in heaven, nothing else.


Amanda 7 years ago

their was nothing that convinced me god is real on this page.


JesusSaves 7 years ago

I am reminded of the old saying "arguing with a fool is like beating the air with a stick". I can no more "prove" that Jesus exsisted than anyone else can "prove" that He didn't. But I 100% BELIEVE that He did, and I have accepted Him as my Personal Savior! Those who do not believe in Him had better be "sure as Hell" that they are right! Excellent hub!


BillC 7 years ago

There's good reason why no one seems to question the existence of Jesus prior to the 18th century. Doing so could very well have gotten you imprisoned, banished, tortured, or killed.


Trevor N 7 years ago

I'm amazed at how many people take hearsay as the truth when it comes to the bible.

Josephus was born around 37 C.E., and didn't write Antiquities until around 93 C.E. This was after the first gospel was written - by someone who also was not there during this massive time of Jesus. So it's a historian retelling a story of a story.

Tacitus spoke of "Christus" or "The Christ". "Christ" is a title, not a name. It means "messiah," which does NOT mean "God" but just "God's chosen one." Historically, there were literally dozens of people who claimed to be the Christ in that period. And again, Tacitus witnessed none of this first hand, or even second hand. It's all stories told and retold.

As for Martyr... If someone were to do something absolutely atrocious then defend their actions by saying that there's PROBABLY a manuscript on file in the government archives that defends their actions, although nobody will ever actually produce evidence of this manuscript, they'd be locked away for a very long time. But that's what Martyr did. Claimed Pilate PROBABLY had a manuscript of the execution of Jesus in an archive, although it was NEVER actually produced. However, he was right about one thing. Christianity is indeed "safe" (because no one is allowed to question it) and most definitely "profitable."

These "witnesses" have no more witnessed the life and times of Jesus than I have witnessed Harry Potter. Actually, unlike any of the "witnesses" of Jesus (even the ones who wrote the bible), I was alive when Harry Potter was "born," actually making me a more credible "witness" than any of the aforementioned.

There is NO proof that Jesus ever existed that would stand up in a court of law. Period.


Timothy O'Brien 6 years ago

Wow, there was not one bit of archeological evidence that a man named Yeshua bar Yosef lived ever!!!

None of the "historians" were alive during the alleged life of Jesus.

Nothing was written by him or about him in his alleged lifetime.


Sandy 6 years ago

That's why they call it Faith. It's all a mystery beyond the realm of scientific reasoning.


TheMann 6 years ago

Thank you Trevor N for saying exactly what i was thinking.

all these people existed a fair wile after jesus supposedly died its all chinese whisper style retellings.


Jennifer  6 years ago

I find the comments here interesting. I do wonder however how many of us will show up in records in a few thousand years. Will someone be questioning if any of us actually existed. It amazes me how many people will read something on the internet that somebody posted and retell it many times and never question it's validity, but when you speak of the God, Jesus, and the Bible you dismiss it because know one can produce tangible evidence. I see miracles every day. Less then a week ago I seen a women walk away from a car accident without a scratch; not even a bruise. It was a horrific accident; the vehicle was not even recognizable. She climbed out on her own without any assistance. She was a very religious women. Everyone else in the vehicle died a violent death. It took several hours to cut the rest of the passengers from the wreckage. Something kept her from suffering the same fate as the others. The accident reconstruction team couldn't give a plausable reason she was uninjured. Science apparently can't explain it but it happened. Sounds like evidence of intervention beyond our comprehension. God? Sounds like a reasonable explaintion to me.


johnelm 6 years ago

How about this? Please check

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshal...

I found this on the net and had been troubled since. Can someone explain, rebut this? Thanks.


Sunganani 6 years ago

Just going by the title of your article made me think "what would be the scientific proof that I actually did exist 200 years from now"

Just a twist to consider as we talk about Jesus


Jefferson 6 years ago

Jesus is not real. He never was, and never will be. Religion, especially Christianity, is the biggest joke on the face of this earth and should be abolished from existence.


Mike 6 years ago

Just going by the title of your article made me think "what would be the scientific proof that I actually did exist 200 years from now" ---------------------------

Well that would be your coffin, your phone records, your birth certificate, driver's license, etc. People leave a pretty good trail behind if you know where to look.....except for Jesus apparently.


Mike 6 years ago

Hey Jennifer, no disrepect.

"I find the comments here interesting. I do wonder however how many of us will show up in records in a few thousand years.

Will someone be questioning if any of us actually existed."

-the difference is I am not telling anyone how to live there life and what they have to do to get in heaven

"It amazes me how many people will read something on the internet that somebody posted and retell it many times and never question it's validity, but when you speak of the God, Jesus, and the Bible you dismiss it because know one can produce tangible evidence."

- well the exact opposite of that is people blindly following God, Jesus and the bible without ever thinking about it. To me that is scary. If God said kill every baby, there are people that would do it without hesitation

"I see miracles every day. Less then a week ago I seen a women walk away from a car accident without a scratch; not even a bruise. It was a horrific accident; the vehicle was not even recognizable. She climbed out on her own without any assistance. She was a very religious women. Everyone else in the vehicle died a violent death. It took several hours to cut the rest of the passengers from the wreckage. Something kept her from suffering the same fate as the others. The accident reconstruction team couldn't give a plausable reason she was uninjured."

- so she survived because of her faith? I assume than that the rest of the passengers were atheist. Because if not then your theory is debunked right there. I see miracles too. I also see good things happen to bad people. I know a guy who doesn't deserve his wife at all. Yet he still has her. I know a girl who is a bad person yet has everything she could ever want.

"Science apparently can't explain it but it happened. Sounds like evidence of intervention beyond our comprehension. God? Sounds like a reasonable explaintion to me."

True. Science can not explain everything. However, science has explained a lot more than the bible ever has. Science makes you think and actually show evidence. The bible just says "well this happened, no proof, but if you don't believe you go to hell."

On a side note I do believe in a God. I just don't necessarily believe the bible and I am on the fence about Jesus.


Randle 6 years ago

RELIGION IS A LIE!!!!! YOU ARE ALL FOOLS FOR BELIEVING IN ANYTHING MORE THAN YOURSELF!!!! THERE IS NO GREAT DIVINE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU! ONLY YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE, SO STOP BEING BABIES AND LEARN TO GROW UP AND ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELVES.


kroberts 6 years ago

The Jesus story is plagiarism pure and simple. Have any of you looked at Mythra, Horace, or Attice. The all have striking similarities to Jesus and were around way before him.

There is a great film that covers all of this. Here is a link.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


jt 6 years ago

Sure, Jesus existed but where is there proof that he was son of god? Is that all based on faith?


jt 6 years ago

strike that..could have existed..


EP 6 years ago

To kroberts:

Zeitgeist is, by far, the most intellectually dishonest movie to have ever been released since Ben Stein's Expelled movie. It's guilty of throwing out logical fallacies, quote mining, outright making up its "facts", and presents the most questionable, obscure sources that are either inaccessible or are by other conspiracy theorists who lack any sort of credibility.


Justin 6 years ago

I encourage you those of you who haven’t to accept Christ as your Lord & Savior. If your answer to this is no, notice all the pride you have in you as well as how independent you feel when you say it. This goes right along with the Bible. It’s like when a young adult chooses on their own to move out of their parents’ house; while things are going the way the young adult wants them to they’re proud & feel they don’t need any help from their parents. But when the situation changes the young adult’s pride fades away & they ask their parents for the help that they needed all along. Right now you may have things you’re proud of, but when your heart decides that it can’t beat anymore your situation will also change. If you accept Christ as your Lord & Savior and it is a myth, after you die you’ll forget that you did it. If you don’t accept Christ & the story’s as true as it claims to be, after you die you’ll “very warmly” remember your decision for an eternity. You’re better saved than sorry.


EP 6 years ago

Have you even read the bible, Justin? Or any other book for that matter? The Bhagwad Geeta, Koran, or any other sacred book that claims that it holds all truth to everything around us? Isn't it pride that fuels the bias that only the Judeo Christian God could hold any truth about the natural world, living or non-living?

"If you don’t accept Christ & the story’s as true as it claims to be, after you die you’ll “very warmly” remember your decision for an eternity."

Do you also accept every other claim presented in the bible, and how it asserts that the supernatural gives the only explanation for everything or anything at all that lead humanity to understand how the world, or even the progress that scientists have made to understand part of how the universe works? Or are you advocating eternal punishment for simply not believing in impossible nonsense that cannot be backed up through empirical evidence to the contrary of what's presented through a biased book that also happens to advocate prejudice, slavery, and ultimately reject knowledge as well?


Kevin Smith 6 years ago

It's interesting that there's only information about Jesus after he died. In fact, the first historian mentioned here, Josephus, was born 4 years after Jesus died. It's certainly not a very credible idea.

Important people of his ilk are usually written about while they do things, not just once they die.

Anyways, Justin...your view on your god is an amazingly sad one. What is the point in living a life where you have a choice - do everything god tells you, or burn in hell. Why bother living at all? You're not a person, you're a sheep.

If you're right, if eating pork is going to send me to hell

(and remember that one when you're insulting gays. The same bit of the book that said no homosexuality also said you can't eat raw meat or oysters, you can't wear garments made of blended fibers, and you can't plant two different kinds of seed in the same field. Tattoos are also banned)

Right, if eating pork will send me to hell, so be it. Your god is a complete asshole. If I die and approach some pearly gates, I will tell it to him. Religion has caused more pain and death in human history than anything else. Why do you value something that causes so much suffering?


medgin 6 years ago

kevin smith, i have something to say to u . do not ever use Jesus's name in vain and don't call him an asshole. he is God and wath your mouth. you can eat pork all you want that wont send you to hell but by complety denied christ that will send you to hell. hell is not a place. God does not want to watch the children he loves so much. the ones who rejected him burned for eternity. he is not that kind of person. further more, God is not human... so don't ever call an asshole again.because you will pay for IT..... do you know why ivalue religion because it gives me hope, it gaves me wisdom and understanding of thing i never knew. God gives you a choice, you have to choose and believe me he wont force you. believe when you die, you do not approach pearly gates. when the end of times come, God will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.. (1 thessalonians 4:16)

when you meet God, it wont be through a pearly. you will looking at him coming down from heaven. its hard to explain but people who live saw these visions and they wrote it down to gives us hope that someday we will see the one that died to give us salvation and the one that rosed from the dead. Jesus is alive believe it or not.

one more verse. john 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and that whoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Religion might cause death but i would rather die for something that is good and true than something that is false and impure


Nazorean 6 years ago

While most Christians are taught that Jesus created the Christian religion, this is not so. The people who created Christianity are the people who wrote the scriptures. It is commonly accepted that the gospels were written sometime after 70 CE. The question is, Why did it take so long? A lot happened during this period in this corner of the world.

First we have the Pisonian Conspiracy in which members of the the powerful Roman Piso family conspire to assassinate the Emperor Nero and to create a new Jewish religion to compete with the Jewish religion of the Messianic Jewish Movement. They are discovered and executed.

Next we have Apollonius of Tyana making 2 trips to India. On his first trip he receives 9 manuscripts in Taxila which form the basis for the 9 Pauline Epistles. On his second trip to farther India he receives 4 documents about the seasons of life of the Indian Christ of the Tamil people which form the basis for the 4 gospels. It is interesting that the Pauline Epistles are the earliest Chistian writings and make no reference to Jesus of Nazareth. Neither do other early writngs such as 'The Shepherd of Hermes' or 'The Epistle of Barnabas.' The reason for this is that these texts were written prior to the time when the gospels were written. Now, we know that the Epistles of Paul supposedly date back to the 50s. Therefore, as of that decade no one had ever heard of Jesus of Nazareth.

It is only during the last decade of the first century and the beginning of the second that Jesus Christ is mentioned in quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome. They mention his name, but know little about him. It was also at this time that the famous apologetics quotes from Suetonius and Tacitus were actually written. This is also the time that Josephus wrote the infamous 'Testimonium Flavianum.' All of these quotes were written after the gospels had already been composed.

So, there you have it. Prior the gospels being written there is not one single mention of Jesus Christ. Only after the gospels were written do we hear the name Jesus Christ mentioned. To learn more about how the Romans subverted the teachings of Yeshu and the Nazoreans and proclaimed them the revelations of their godman Jesus Christ visit: http://www.nazoreans.com


evyan 6 years ago

Josephus' references to Christ are known to be a forgery, most likely done by Eusebius. At any rate, he wrote in 93 A.D., 60 years after the supposed crucifixion.

Tacitus: Even if we grant that the one surviving copy of the Annals was not forged by Christian "interpolators," he still wrote that in the year 115, more than eight decades after the crucifixion. He is also clearly repeating third-hand information, things that he heard but had not verified.

Justin Martyr: Not anywhere close in time to the mythical Jesus. This incident is gossip, and even if Justin actually did this, it still doesn't mean that Pilate actually wrote any such documents.

There were historians recording down to the most minute detail in the area at the time. Why is there not one mention of such an important figure anywhere? Why did Philo Judaeus say nothing at all about him?

There is no evidence for a historical Jesus whatsoever. People are lying to you when they tell you that the evidence is overwhelming. There is not a single bit of evidence. None. Nothing. If there is so much evidence as they say, why don't they ever give it to you?


Bc 5 years ago

Alright , this is one messed up conversation , our all getting worked up over nothing , everyone has there own opinions and beliefs when it comes to religion. I am a non beliver , if there really was a god , why are there sooooooooo many other religions ? Like Catholics are the biggest joke ever , the only reason everyone belives in your god is because you catholics KILLED MILLIONS WHO DIDN'T BELEIVE IN YOUR GOD!! that's messed up , honestly if there was a Jesus he was more then likely some skitsofrenic phycopath that thought he was the "son of god" ... And if i'm going to "burn in hell for all eternity" because I don't belive in your so called "god" then so be it ..

There are many different gods that existed waaaaaay befor this so called Jesus ... Maybe you should all look up different religions or maybe take a science course and relize that the world was not created in "7days" it took billions of years .. And there are billions and billions of other worlds out there with other gods ... How about everyone that believes in Jesus Christ achally reads some of the stuff Catholics belive in and relize how STUUUPID some of it is .. Like no gays? I thought all people are equal in the eyes of god? .. Apparently not .. Thou shall not kill?well you had no problem killing millions of non belivers .. And sooo much more ..

It's achally quite pathetic ...


Bc 5 years ago

The only reason we belive in this nonscence is because it gives people something to look forward to when they die ... Other then that it's just one big lie ...


marina bessinger 5 years ago

It's not the Talk you Talk, it's the Walk you Walk. When He comes your name to call, you'll find out the Bible was right after all. Lovies


Emily 5 years ago

Just be kind, compassionate, altruistic, and lead a joyful life. Bring joy to others' lives. Be a positive force in the world. This is the only way to be sure that your time on earth isn't wasted. You can call yourself a Christian all of your days but if your life is filled with misery, harm doing, and/or hate, your life is wasted. There is no way that all of the wonderful people all over this world could burn in hell simply for following a different spirituality. Joy is partnered with love; misery is forever tied to fear and hate. It's really beautifully simple.


Αura 5 years ago

I am a believer, who was also once a non-believer. I have come to the conclusion that conversations between believers and not are pointless because both sides have their own arguments on the topic, supporting them under a different point of view. Maybe there is a scientific proof maybe there isn't. Does it really matter? I don't care anymore. Not because I fight science, not at all. I have studied psychology and unlike what most might think it is a science based on research! But I do not seek to find proof when it come sto God. Not the proof most people ask for anyway. God isn't maths, it it's an experiment! God is love! And there is absolutely no scientific proof for love! Scientists have managed to take us to the moon, but they still can't explain love!

Regarding those who say that Christians have committed crimes such as killing people in the name of the Lord. The fact that some people chose to use religion for their own personal gain that does not mean that God is cruel! If someone wants to see what God really says they should read the bible! Human actions have nothing to do with God's will! If a child behaves badly and is disobedient that does not mean that he was raised like that! We are free to do whatever we want, but that doesn't mean God approves of it!

I could describe a number of stories and facts that have happened to me but it would not make any difference. I am saying this though: if we want God in our lives all we have to do is ask Him! It is so simple! God loves us all!

God bless!


Voss 5 years ago

As a music composer, I always find it difficult when trying to start writing a piece. Here you sit at a computer/desk/instrument with endless possibilities. Most of the time I have to restrict myself to very detailed limits (must be in this key, with this meter, with this style, etc.). After this, I am able to expand those boundaries and explore more and more music outside of these limitations.

I feel like Christianity (if not all religion) limits our free-thinking. I don't question most of the morals taught in the bible, but once you open your mind to the possibility that the bible is false, you find that the possibilities are endless.

Thou shall not steal. Stealing = post-life in hell. However, when a situation turns to life and death, who is to say it is wrong to steal? If I go to hell for stealing to save someone's life, I'll proudly accept my fate!

I find that the historical parts in the bible make absolutely no difference. For one, they are all false, but who cares if Jesus existed or not? Religion is about morals not history.

You may believe in Jesus all you want however this will not change the FACT that there is no evidence to support his existence. It is time to open your mind to the option that the stories of Christianity are all false. It is time to see religion for what it really is. Stop trying to teach Noah's Ark, virgin birth, resurrection and all of the other scientifically contradictory material invented by the authors of the bible, and start teaching strictly the moral values that the religion was based on anyway.

I think it was an important part of my childhood to be exposed to this type of moral value in my community. I as never a church-goer but labeled myself as a Christian because I admit I had faith in Jesus (though I was VERY ignorant). The morals that were present during my early stages of development conditioned me to become a morally-upright man. However, once I opened my mind past the borders that Christianity has so strictly placed, I found that these morals were just to get me started. They were the limit (like composing) to get me started as how to make peace with everyone in the world.

Now I am not saying that everyone is the same, but I think with the proper balance between the conditioning of [some] Christian morals and open-mindedness, everyone may become enlightened and see the world for what is TRULY is, not for the world they are told it is.


Mountains of easily refutable evidence 5 years ago

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 A.D. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 A.D. After the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 A.D., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.) This places him way after the supposed miracles of Jesus, so the very most we can infer is that Christians believed in Christ. Brilliant. That's like basing my belief that Queen Victoria existed on an offhand comment from a modern historian with no other supporting evidence.


Agree with previous post 5 years ago

Any and all extra-biblical "evidence" is contained in texts written by individuals born many decades after the estimated date of Jesus' execution. There is nothing anywhere in the many records of the Romans who would have surely documented such an inconvenient and troublesome individual. Everything offered as proof is heresy and/or third/fourth party accounts after initial biblical texts were already created. As far as my personal belief is concerned, I think that such an individual could have existed and the movement he founded was such a problem for the Romans that all record of him was destroyed when he was. Still, there should be at least a few accounts of his existence dated during the time he lived and not several decades after.


lala143 5 years ago

Have any of you had a personal experience with the Holy Spirit? This for me is what confirmed my faith in Jesus Christ. Im not a loon, don't do drugs, was not drinking alcohol. I was in desparate need of understanding when my Dad was tragically killed in a motorcycle accident when I was 25. I called out to god, and he comforted me with the Holy spirit that night. Since then I have had other encounters in my life with this amazing feeling that I can only descibe as a natural euphoria. you feel the spirit in you. I also would like to add that my mother in law had auto-immune cirrhosis of the liver in the 90's - she was even placed on a transplant list. Her Doctor's cannot explain why she was healed. But she can tell you that it is because she surrendered to God. Her Doctor's tell her she is a miracle, because your liver does not just get better...well her's did. That is a supernatural act. She never had a transplant and she is still alive today. I can testify to many things that have been miracle's in my life. I believe, so I receive :-) sometimes you have to tell yourself. Not everything needs to be proven. What about trust? Do you trust your spouse? or do they constantly have to prove to you they love you in some way? Its about a personal relationship with Jesus~ For the sceptic who says that its not true, I feel sorry for you, I am very open minded and do not tell you what to believe. That is so negative. To think that the millions of people who actually have experiences that change their lives are lying? I have a hard time believing that considering I have had one too. I will admit, if I had not had a mustard seed of faith it may not have happened to me, but I am glad I did. Christians do not tell you what you have to believe, so why would you feel you need to tell us that we are wrong. I would also like to ask...were you born then? I am sure the resources were quite different from today and perhaps just becuase it is not proven doesn't mean that it is not true. I am sure there have been things in your life that have happened, that you cant prove today, other than by telling someone.


corey 5 years ago

Its called faith.. if you can't find faith, than why bother even trying to believe in god, or jesus, or the bible? Faith is believing in something, that you don't really know everything about. Evidence is great, but its the devils work who brings the doubters, or the people who look for evidence against christ. And its also the reason why a lot of people will be left behind, when the rapture comes.. the bible is a guide to life, more than just stories of the son of god. Find your faith, and I promise if you start to put faith in the lord, your life will have a lot more meaning..


Bruce 4 years ago

I am happy to see discussions of this sort take place between individuals who did not know each other prior to there having met here. It is profoundly troubling to me when people adopt the "Never talk religion and politics" mentality.

When human's stop engaging in sincere dialogue humanity does themselves a grave disservice.


Daniel 4 years ago

The arguments against the existence of Jesus is laughable at best. The three accounts of the men provided here are just some, and people are arguing they are not valid because they were after Jesus' death. The author already answered that in a response for those who do not have any logical and historical common sense. Historic evidence's strength is not in self-proclaimed notions of the writers who said they first-hand witnessed it. If that was the case, then it's essentially saying there would be no definite proof of Abraham Lincoln or George Washington having ever lived since technically speaking no one currently alive today has seen him and all artifacts and written documents of them could have been 'forged' or made after his death. Yet no one questions this at all. This is because the strength of historical validity for existence is not of a person bearing direct witness but rather the sheer multitude of accounts that concur with one another on a certain point. For this case, Jesus' existence.

Even leading Atheists agree that Jesus was a historical figure that did indeed exist. The documented evidence for him is overwhelming (more than Socrates, Plato, and even Aristotle yet ironically no one seems to question their existence). The refusal to accept this documented fact is because of ignorance or refusal to accept proof when seen due to emotions running high. Now to argue if he is the Son of God who performs miracles, that is a different question. But before you enter a debate, at least make sure you have cemented facts known and researched before looking like fools.


Ulamar Binto 4 years ago

I do not see the veidence. Three men speaking about Jesus AFTER his alleged life is not evidence of anything, else than the age of the myth itself. And even if there was an actual man that inspired the gospels, that is not really proof of anything. We have found not evidence whatsoever of the existence of Nazareth back in the first century; that alone tells the story.


Jesus isn't divine 4 years ago

The original question was asking if there is "scientific" evidence for the divinity of jesus. No, there is not! There also is NOT mountains of evidence to support that Jesus was historical, as a matter of "fact" the evidence is slime and NOT in the least compelling. It amazes me to which the lengths that some people will be intellectually dishonest(or outright lie)or intentionally ignorant regarding the historical events surrounding Jesus Christ. If there is so much evidence in favor of a divine jesus(savior)then FAITH WOULD NOT BE NEEDED. I really wish people would do some research on their own vs simply believing religious authorities.


achilles2011 4 years ago from Mumbai

No historian ever came up with the exact date of birth and death of Jesus. Some people even deny and say Jesus did not even exist. They believe that he was a mythological figure.

Jesus was a part of God's redemptive plan for the humankind. Prophet Isaiah and several others had predicted that a messiah would be born. Yet, surprising, but true none knew when he was born.

The story of nativity was woven around him to add magic to mystery. However, God did give a sign to let the posterity know exactly when Jesus was born. The sign was appearance of star in Bethlehem. The passage at Matthew 2:1-2 reads, "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he the one born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Astronomers for centuries have debated over the existence of such a dazzling object. Some attribute it to pairing of Jupiter and Saturn. Others say it was due to pairing of Venus and Jupiter.

There is a probability that the Star of Bethlehem wise men saw was Halley's Comet. They probably knew about its regular reappearance as it was first seen in 240 BC. Before we assume this let us, check whether the recorded date of its first sighting is correct. The periods between Halley's Comet's approaches to the earth usually vary from 75 to 79 years because the gravitational force of other planets changes the comet's orbit slightly. Last, it had appeared in the year 1986, so it will appear next somewhere around 2061-2067. Since Halley's Comet appears at this interval, thus the year of its sighting around Jesus' birth ought to be 33-39 BC. The new era began with death of Jesus Christ. If we take 1 A.D. as the year Lord died, 33 BC was the year Jesus was born. Jesus died at the age of 33.

Another question that remains to be settled is whether three men found Jesus in the manger or his parents found him in the temple while he was already 12 year old. Authors of the Gospel say that Mary had few other children as well. There are more accounts to show that Jesus always denied that Mary was his mother.

Therefore, there is an evidence to show that neither Joseph nor May, both were not Jesus' biological parents. Maybe Jesus real parents left him on the temple steps at the time Herod wrecked mayhem and went on a killing spree massacring two-year-old children. Thereafter, temple priests raised him, and Joseph and Mary came to claim him later.


Bershawn 4 years ago

All of your information is faith based hearsay. I can discount every bit of crap posted on this site with an accepted scientific process. It's called burden of proof, and there is none. No person knows who wrote the gospels. We do know that it is physically impossible for any of his disciples to have written them. They would have been dead by then. Also: the only gospels and epistles that we do have, are from the fourth century. Therefore they are copies of copies....There are no eyewitnesses who wrote about christ, only people retelling a story.(hearsay). Plus...this popular miracle man who was such a thorn in the side of Rome and the pharisees; a man of fame. Great multitudes followed him wherever he went.. yet not one scribe, pharisee, roman citizen, not anyone wrote about him during his life. He did not exist. incidentally; i can discount anything on this site, you see...in science...we are subject to laws...like the burden of proof.


Chloe 4 years ago

A+ work, Bershawn. A+.


Sam 3 years ago

I was born in a refugee camp in Thailand and now in the US. When I was trying to get my citizenship, they asked for my birth certificate and other documentation. I had none... Trying to contact Thailand and other sources came back to the conclusion that I "Documentally" did not exist. Considering what document trail existed during Jesus's day and age, it's amazing that we would have a single document of His name.


wedeewelmibly 3 years ago

I utilized to get high on lifetime nevertheless these days We've accumulated some sort of level of resistance.


Charley 3 years ago

Funny how none of them where eye witnesses and where born after Jesus' supposed death. It was all hearsay and your still left holding an empty back.


CARL 3 years ago

If you are willing to think with an Open mind, the below website is the most comprehensive (Skeptic View , Counter Views with links to external and Original Source)!

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/index_articles.ht...

Additional Resources:

Non Biblical Evidence of Jesus and The Bible (Skeptic View and Counter Views)!

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtm...

http://www.creatingfutures.net/evidence.html

http://y-jesus.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrRQqYGf4O0

Scientific Facts from the Bible!

http://www.eternal-productions.org/101science.html

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Scientific-Pro...

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienti...

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