Eternal Hell

Eternal Hell – Or is it?

In a previous Hub we discovered that according to the Bible, the soul is not immortal. It was shown that only God is immortal and the soul can, and does die (cf. Exe. 18:20, Rev. 16:3). We also saw that people, both good and bad, go the grave to wait for the resurrection when Christ returns.

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So where does the doctrine of an eternally burning hellfire come from? Is the devil really in charge of hell? Virtually all the world holds view about hell that is not taught in the Bible and it’s very tragic because not only is it crucial to understand the truth regarding this teaching, but also because it mars the character of God. When I first heard of the fire and brimstone and eternally burning sinners as a youngster, it seemed pretty obvious that this was contradictory of an all-loving God. If God tormented His enemies in a flaming eternity, He would be more cruel and unfeeling than man has ever been in the worst of war atrocities. It’s easy to see why this teaching has led many to turn their back on God. However, an eternal hell of torment would also be hell for God, who loves even the vilest sinner.

What the Bible Really Says

The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings...

Old Testament

31 times from the word "Sheol," which means "the grave"

New Testament

10 times from the word "Hades," which means "the grave."

12 times from the word "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."

1 time from the word "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."

As noted above, the word "hell" is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to "a place of burning."

The Place of Burning

The Greek word "Gehenna" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does in modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would still be burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.

Specifically

2 Peter 2:9 “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."

A close look at this verse indicates that there is no one in hellfire today, but rather that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the ‘day of judgement’ to be punished.

Matthew 13:40-42 "So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire."

John 12:48 "The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

These verses also indicate that sinners are cast into hellfire at ‘the end of the world’, or ‘the last day.’ This makes sense when we consider that, according to the popular belief, a murderer who died 2000 years ago would be burning 2000 years longer than one who dies and deserves punishment for the same sin today.

John 5:28, 29 "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Job 21:30, 32 "The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb."

Here the Bible is being quite specific that both the wicked and the righteous remain in the grave until resurrection day. Just as no one is in hell right now, no one but a select few are in heaven either.

James 1:15 "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Romans 6:43 "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

These verses tell us that the punishment for sin is ‘death’, not eternal suffering.

At this time, we’ll touch on the subject of the terms ‘first death’ and ‘second death’. To put it simply – we all die the first death, but not everyone has to die the second death. That is, everyone dies and goes to the grave to await the resurrection when we all (wicked and righteous) are resurrected to either face our judgement, or to meet Jesus in the air. When the wicked are cast into the lake of fire – this is the second death, from which there is no coming back.

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Bible is clear that the wicked will be obliterated. It tells us that they suffer death (Romans 6:23), suffer destruction (Job 21:30), shall perish (Psalms 37:20), will burn up (Malachi 4:1), shall be destroyed together (Psalms 37:38), will consume away (Psalms 37:20), shall be cut off (Psalms 37:9), shall be slain (Psalms 62:3). God will destroy them (Psalms 145:20), and fire shall devour them (Psalms 21:9). Note that there is no mention of the wicked living forever in misery!

Revelation 20:9 “They went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

This verse indicates that, at the end of the world, God is the one who kindles hellfire. Interesting to note that it happens on the ‘breadth of the earth’ and not in some deep underground cave possibly near the center of the earth ;)

Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Matthew 16:27 "And then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Luke 12:47, 48 "That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."

In these verses we see that although the Bible does not tell us how long the wicked will be punished before they die, it does specifically state that all will be punished according to their deeds and thusly, some will receive greater punishment than others.

Isaiah 47:14 "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Revelation 21:1, 4 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Here we see that the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left ‘a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.’ Also, ‘all former things’ will be passed away and hell, being one of the former things, is included. So we have God’s promise that it will be abolished!

Malachi 4:1, 3 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

It is important to note here that the wicked burn like ‘stubble’ which will be burned up. That little word “up” denotes completion. Nothing but ashes are left. Psalms 37:10, 20 also indicates that the wicked will go up in smoke and be completely destroyed.

Some teachings may say that it is the ‘spirit’, or ‘soul’ which is punished, but I’ve discussed that idea in my Hub about the Afterlife. In case it was not made clear in that Hub, the Bible tells us that real, live people enter hell in bodily form and are destroyed both body & soul. The fire from God will fall upon real people and blot them out of existence.

Matthew 5:30 "It is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 10:28 "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

As for the devil being in charge of hellfire…

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire."

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. ... And never shall thou be any more."

The Big Picture

If you have read my Hub on The Bible Story, it may make it easier to understand God’s purpose in hellfire, which is that hell will destroy all sin and sinners, including the originator of sin – the devil, making the world safe for eternity. It is God’s plan to isolate sin and blot it out of existence for all time. From this perspective, it should be easy to see that an eternal hell of torment would actually perpetuate sin and make its obliteration impossible.

God’s Mercy and Love?

It has always been the work of God to save rather than destroy. As such, the work of destroying the wicked in hellfire is so foreign to God's nature that the Bible calls it His "strange act."

Isaiah 28:21 "For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act."

God's all-loving heart will ache at the destruction of the wicked. He works to save every soul! But if one rejects His love and clings to sin, God will have no choice but to destroy the sinner with his sin when He rids the universe of that malignant growth called "sin" in the fires of the last day.

Ezekiel 33:11 "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

Luke 9:56 "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

Sin Will Not Rise Again

Nahum 1:9 "He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."

Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Revelation 21:3, 4 "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain."


In His word, God has promised that sin will not rise again. His people will be filled with peace, love, joy, and contentment. Their lives of total happiness will be far more glorious and breathtaking than mere words could ever describe. The real misfortune of hell is in missing heaven. A person who fails to enter this glorious kingdom has made the saddest choice of a lifetime.

According to the Bible, hellfire isn't even meant for human beings. It is "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Yet because countless people refuse to accept Jesus' great sacrifice for them and decide instead to follow the great enemy of souls, they must share his fate. Satan and all sinners will be destroyed, the earth will be cleansed, and "affliction shall not rise up the second time" (Nahum 1:9). Sin and sinners will be completely destroyed, forever separated from God, the source of all life.

Eternal Hell a Man-made Theory

As should be clear by now, the "eternal hell of torment" supposition originated not from the Bible, but rather from misguided people who were, perhaps inadvertently, led of the devil. And, by the way, no one will be in heaven because he feared hell. People are saved because they love and obey Christ.

As with most of the popular doctrines that you may read about on my Hubs, this teaching of an eternal hell stems from misinterpreted Bible texts or texts that are taken out of context, typically resulting from a poor exegesis. Let’s examine a few of these texts…

Revelation 14: 11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

From these verses, the idea of an eternal hell may seem plausible. However, a proper study of Scripture shows that "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.

For instance, Hannah promised God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (cf. 1 Samuel 1:22). Rather than take this out of context, we can read on to where it tells us what this actually means. Verse 28 tells us Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth"

Also, Jonah said that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (cf. Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (cf. Jonah 1:17).

More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon that "went on forever."

The Rich Man and Lazarus


Another story from the Bible that many find difficult to resolve with the truth about hellfire is the story of the rich man and Lazarus, found in Luke chapter 16 (please read). But by realizing that this passage is a parable-at the end of a long list of parables-we can understand better the imagery which Jesus uses.

It should be obvious that “Abraham's bosom” is not the eternal home of the redeemed, and it seems unlikely that the lost in hell can communicate with the saved in heaven. When we remember that hell takes place at the end of the world, and that there are no people suffering in hell at this present time, we can determine more exactly three major points contained in Jesus' remarks.

1 - By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus was teaching His hearers that, contrary to the dominate view at the time, wealth was not necessarily an sign of divine favour, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgment upon a person.

2 - Jesus was also seeking to teach the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by inheritance. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," the same way the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation.

3 - Jesus was looking for a way to lead His hearers to recognize that only faithfulness to God's Word would groom them to enter into eternal life. He told them, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (cf. Luke 16:31).

To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character.

It is my hope that this Hub will remove the dark cloud that has been placed over the character of God, and that many will have a new understanding of His magnificent love and mercy for all mankind.

Special thanks to Pastor Doug Batchelor and the Amazing Facts ministry

Comments 176 comments

Charlene & Mike 6 years ago

We agree with you. Your article is spot-on! The Bible speaks for itself. Let us hear what the Word has to say instead of man and their doctrines. I was wondering what brought you to believe that a select few was in heaven? What do you think about John 3:13 saying that no man but Jesus has ascended?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Thanks! Keep writing the truth!


rdhowell profile image

rdhowell 6 years ago from North America

Andy,

You brought up some very good points here.

I would like to know more about what sources you used for some of the information.

I have a new hub that you might find interesting: http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/To-Hell-Wi...

Peace.

Randy


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 6 years ago from Canada Author

Charlene & Mike ~ Thanks for reading and commenting. I'm glad that you agree and I agree with you about mans' doctrines or traditions. It's time for people to review their history.

I believe the Bible teaches that a select few are in heaven...

Enoch was "translated and did not see death" (Heb. 11:5)

Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind and appeared in the transfiguration (2 Kings 2:11 see also Mark 9:1-8, cf. Mat. 17:1-13 and Luke 9:28-36)

Moses died, but he also appeared in the transfiguration on the mount (Mark 9:1-8, cf. Mat. 17:1-13 and Luke 9:28-36)

I believe this is also symbolic of those at the time of Jesus return - the living who will not see death, and the righteous dead who will come forth to meet Him in the air ;)

24 Elders are seen around the throne of God in Rev. 4:4 and although the Bible does not tell us who they are, they 'are' in heaven nonetheless ;)

Very interesting article on who they could be is found here...

http://www.bibletruthonline.com/whoarethe24elders....

As for Jn 3:13 - Although Jesus does tell us that "...no man has ascended..." I believe the context tells us that Jesus was saying that no one is qualified to speak of heavenly matters and therefore His words are better translated, "no one has ascended to heaven AND RETURNED." Also, if the context IS that Jesus was speaking of no one being qualified to speak of heavenly things, then it is plausible that He was not speaking of a 'physical' ascension in the first place, but rather, using a play on words, so to speak (analogy??) Sorry if I am not using the right words to convey my meaning.

I thank-you for your comments and welcome any further questions. God-bless!

rdhowell ~ Thank you for reading and thank you for you comment. Let me know which specific information you are asking about the sources and I will try my best to reply. I visited your hub-link and found it very interesting indeed. Well done! God-bless!


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 4 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Love the hub I have one on this topic but yours is a lot more in depth and really nails the point home, I'd love to see any eternal hellfire be

Ievers rebuke that.

Jesus says that no man ascends before him so on your comment of who you believe is in heaven we respectfully disagree, can I ask how many people you believe go to heaven?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 4 years ago from Burlington

You only need Col1:20 to rebuke the doctrine of hell.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I also noticed that you are another spiritual terrorist profiting from spiritual terrorism false teachings.


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 3 years ago from Canada Author

Dannytaylor02 - Thank-you for your kind words. I think I gave my explanation of the "no man ascends before Me" verse, in the Hub. context, context, context ;) I am unsure of your question - how many people go? Did you mean to ask how many are there already? I do believe I answered that in the Hub as well. If not, please clarify your questions and I'll do my best to get back to you :)

SworfofManticorE - "spiritual terrorist"?? "profiting"?? Instead of unclear accusations, why not provide some basis for your opinions? Come - let us reason together :)


christiananrkist 3 years ago

hey andy. good hub as usual. i'm a little confused with one thing though. are you saying people are punished in hell, destroyed in hell, or punished then destroyed? what about an atheist that lives their life as a "good" person. are they to be destroyed as a Hitler?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I already used Col 1:20 to refute your pagan belief of hell.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

i have to say i dont agree with this view either. i dont really see how Col 1:20 refutes it though swordo. can you explain?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

What is there not to understand? Paul taught the true Gospel of reconciliation of all with God (2 Cor5).

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God is the saviour of all mankind especially we believers.

You cant see how Col 1:20 refutes the hell doctrine because you don't want it refuted.


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 3 years ago from Canada Author

christiananrkist: thanks for your thoughtful question. I do believe that the Bible teaches that sinners are both punished and destroyed in hellfire. Keeping in mind that some will be punished longer than others. Also, the Bible is clear that the only way into heaven is through Christ and Christ alone. No amount of good deeds, or good living, will get us into heaven, whether we are believers or atheist. Thus, those who live a 'good life' yet still reject the living God will not make it, though they may have less punishment. Also consider that if we are living a good life with a clear conscience, chances are better that we may still come to accept Christ as our savior. The Holy Spirit is still working in all of us and God has told us that He wants that none should parish, but that all should have everlasting life. Thanks for reading and commenting. God bless you as you continue to seek Him!


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 3 years ago from Canada Author

SwordofManticorE: you appear to be taking Col. 1:20 out of context. have you read the book of Colossians, or the following chapters, or even the next few verses? See verse 23, which makes a 'if' statement. What does it mean? We must continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel; that is, we must be so well fixed in our minds as not to be moved from it by any temptations. We must be stedfast and immovable (1 Cor. xv. 58) and hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, Heb. x. 23. Observe, We can expect the happy end of our faith only when we continue in the faith, and are so far grounded andled in it as not to be moved from it. We must not draw back unto perdition, but believe unto the saving of the soul, Heb. x. 39. We mube faithful to death, through all trials, that we may receive the crown of life, and receive the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls,


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 3 years ago from Canada Author

The point being... verse 23 tells us that 'if' we do something, salvation is there. This begs the question, what if we do not? Selah.

Thanks for reading and commenting SwordofManticorE, I look forward to your reply.

God bless!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I have taken nothing out of context. You fail to see the context nor its spiritual meaning, shall we continue this mud slinging? Paul brought the mystery of the gospel to the gentiles. It is the good news that all will be awoken from their graves and reconciled with our Father. The tradition of hell was created by Augustine of Hippo circa ad450 and adopted into the catholic church almost 100 years later. That's right, you follow a catholic tradition. This vile doctrine was created by a carnal mind from pagan beliefs. Those who endorse, defend or preach this doctrine do not do this to glorify God, They bring spiritual terrorism to the listener encouraging the listener to only worship God to avoid going to hell. Acts 20:27 says that Paul taught us all what God wants us to know, yet never once did Paul warn the gentiles of Gehanna fire let alone a place called hell, because it does not exist.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

Swordo

what do you make of all the references to hell by Jesus?

such as Matthew 23:33, Matthew 10:28, or Mark 9:47. Dont these suggest hell exists?

Andy

I see where youre coming from. I understand that there are degrees of punishment in hell, i believe that is clearly taught. What i have trouble with however is that God would ultimately just destroy someone who rejects him, but lived a relatively good life. Though we all deserve to be punished for our sins, why should people like this just be destroyed in the end, same as Hitler or others like him? Also these passages make me think hell is eternal.

Matthew 25:41 & 46, Mark 9:42–48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5–10, Revelation 14:9– 11, and Revelation 20:10, 14–15. I can give explanation on why these make me think that if you want.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Before I answer your question, I need to know if you are an open minded believer or a defender of the doctrine of hell?


christiananrkist 3 years ago

I'm a believer. I like to think I'm open minded, but others can be the judge of that. I dont know if I'm a defender of hell in the way you mean or not. I try to defend the truth of the bible to the best of my abilities. Let me know what you think hell is and your view on it either based on the scripture I gave or by your own.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So do you think that hell is true?


christiananrkist 3 years ago

I think hell is real. It may not however be the same interpretation of hell that you think of. Thats why I asked what you think hell is.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

The reality of hell and eternal torment is secretly hidden in the desires of many Christian's hearts who seek vengeance on those who will not believe in God nor His Son.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

Why do you believe that? Its obvious you dont believe hell exists. What reasons do you have for that?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Because it is not Scriptural.

It contradicts the Law of love of God.

It is the opposite of the true nature of God.

And last, hell is of pagan origin.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

so, going back to my original question, what do you make of Matthew 23:33, Matthew 10:28, and Mark 9:47.

How does hell contradict the law of love and nature of God? If its of pagan origin, where did the idea come from exactly? Sorry to ask so many questions. I'm just trying to understand your view


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Matt 23:33, Matt 10:28 and Mark 9:47 was referring to the place just outside of Jerusalem called in Greek Gehenna, not hell. Christ used the place Gehenna symbolically for God's coming wrath on Judah that came AD70. Gehenna, which was a garbage dump had a horrific past and then you have Christ telling the Pharisees that their resting place will NOT be in Hebron where the honored dead are buried, but where the common dead criminal's body is dumped, and that is exactly what happened at the siege of Jerusalem.

The pagan hell came from Augustine of Hippo circa ad400 and was adopted into the catholic church about a hundred years later to maintain control over the poor and elite and gain great wealth with the tool of fear. Decades later, a young arab man from Mecca discovered the power and wealth of the catholic religion and started his own religion called islam. in his book called the quran, you will find over twenty verses describing the islam hell.

God is spirit and love. Not only is His love perfect, it is unfailing. He commands us to bless, forgive, and love our enemies unconditionally, yet the church sets Him as the example as to how He will treat His enemies by casting them into a place of eternal torture and call THAT divine justice? The carnal mind is incapable of knowing the strength of the power of faithful and perfect love, and instead of spreading the Word of love, they make God a hypocrite in the eyes of the unbeliever.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

Just a few more questions, sorry. Do you agree that God is not only loving , but also just? Isnt God shown to punish the unrepentant for their sins? How could God be considered loving and not bring justice by punishing unrepentant people such as charles manson or hitler? If we were to follow the example of love your describing of God, should we even have a justice system in place? Should we just let people crimes go unpunished and just love them as God does us?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I will answer your questions with questions.

Is punishment corrective or vindictive?

Did the Father in the parable of the prodigal son seek justice when His son returned?

Can God save all, but wont?

Does God want all to be saved but Cant?

And last, can God save all and will?

Which of the three suit your image of God's love the most?


christiananrkist 3 years ago

i will answer you questions in my next comment, but you kind of avoided answering any of mine. you obviously dont have to answer if you dont want to, it will just help me to see where youre coming from


Andy Ramjohn profile image

Andy Ramjohn 3 years ago from Canada Author

christiananrkist: "What i have trouble with however is that God would ultimately just destroy someone who rejects him, but lived a relatively good life"

An understandable dilemma, if I may call it that. God's justice is rather mysterious at times. But through our faith in a holy and just God, we must hold that His actions are love and justice. My comment would be that what we see (a person living a good life) is not always all there is. God knows our hearts. We are all sinners, and thus living a good life does not remove sin, only the precious blood of Christ can do that. The main thing, and also what SwordofMancorE is missing, is this... the plan of salvation is not about "saving all" as Sword seems to be indicating. The plan of salvation is to eradicate sin from the universe. It started in heaven and God will not allow any opportunity for it to happen again. Please read my Hub titled "The Bible Story" and let me klnow what you think.

Swordof ManicorE: you say the doctrine of hell is not biblical and is pagan. However, the idea that everyone will get to heaven may not be pagan, but it is cultish. I have noted that none of your replies have referenced any Bible text.

"Is punishment corrective or vindictive?" It is to be corrective, however, this is dependent on the attitude of the one being punished - it can only be corrective if there is repentance.

"Can God save all but won't?" Yes. The Bible tells us that God wishes none be lost, but that all should come to repentance and be saved.

Can God save all and will?" No. "Many will come to me and say Lord, Lord, ... and I will say to them 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Mat. 7:21-23)

Interesting to note, the only one's that refer to Him as Lord are 'believers', and yet we are told even some 'believers' won't make it - what does this tell us about non-believers? ;)

God-bless!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

the greatest cult ever is the church who preaches, teaches and supports the doctrine of eternal torture. What you don't realize is that the early believers during the time of the apostles believed and knew that all mankind is reconciled with God. You follow catholic traditions Andy.

Matt7:21-23 Is Christ referring to the Jews of Judah and only the Jews, not the gentiles. Andy, you don't read the bible the way it is meant to be read, you read it the way you are, and it is of no wonder you believe in teachings from a sect.

1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

you claim i dont read the bible the way its meant to be read, but aside from telling you i think hell exists, i havent even told you what i believe hell to be or given you my interpretation of any scripture. you still avoided my questions as well. I will just assume this means you dont want to or am unable to answer any of them. I will however do my best to answer yours.

Can God save all, but wont? God has given a way to be saved.

John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

did you notice that condition given to be saved? God has given us a way, but we must accept it his gift.

Ephesians 2:8 “ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD”

Does God want all to be saved but Cant? See above answer

And last, can God save all and will? See first answer

Which of the three suit your image of God's love the most? All 3 questions end up the same way. What suits my image of God's love is the way scripture describes it. Both loving and just. What love does God show to those who have been wronged, and lets the wrong doers go unpunished?

2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 “We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO REPAY WITH TRIBULATION THOSE WHO TROUBLE YOU, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD, AND ON THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. THESE SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER,when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,because our testimony among you was believed.”

Other scripture that speak of eternal torment (note: not torture. Big difference that i can go into if you have questions):

Matthew 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”

Mark 9:42 - If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched

Revelation 14:9-11 - Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their TORMENT ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

did you notice those words i mentioned? Torment, not torture.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

@andy

i will definitely give that hub a read. just to get your input, what do you make of the scripture i noted earlier? Matthew 25:41 & 46, Mark 9:42–48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5–10, Revelation 14:9– 11, and Revelation 20:10, 14–15. this are some main scripture that make me think hell is eternal.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I was talking to Andy in my last post, not you Chris. It was Andy who made this hub, not you.

2 Thess 1:3-10 Has nothing to do with the pagan hell doctrine. As a matter of fact, it wasn't even a warning to the gentiles about hell. Paul was encouraging the Thessalonians that the Jews who were persecuting them would face God's wrath and they did. The words "everlasting destruction" are an inaccurate translation. The correct translation is "Aeonian extermination", meaning that they would be cut down (Matt3:10) and thrown into the dumping place known as Gehenna.

According to the church, this endless torment might as well be torture if they are to burn eternally in a literal fire. The word Torment in Rev 14 and 20 in Greek is "basanisthEsontai". It is the verb to the Greek noun word "Basanos". This verb also means "tested" in Greek. A Basanos is a Test stone. A test stone tests the quality of precious metals such as Gold and Silver. This Fire as written in Rev 14 and 20 is the same Fire found in 1Cor 3:10-15

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This very same Fire is also found in Heb 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.

The real answer to the question is God can and will save all for Christ will draw all mankind to Himself and every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Christ is Lord.

If there is a condition to God's gift, it is not free, because a gift is given freely without conditions because God's love for all is unconditional. It is the self-righteous church that added conditions to His gift of grace. The work of grace is God's work, not ours. When will the church finally end this foolish belief that it is our works that save us. The Jews never understood it, and now the church follows the same belief.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

LOL. ok. so have you been talking to me at any point? i understand this is Andy's hub, am I not allowed to comment when i want to? i'm unsure if this one is directed at me. in any case, i appreciate that you're doing research on the original language of the text. i believe however you may be taking it to literal. for instance, you realize that gehenna no longer existed when Jesus or Paul referred to it. They use it a in image or metaphor to point to a reality.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Actually, I understand the spiritual aspect of Christ's warnings regarding Gehenna. Only a literalist interprets scripture and ends up with the doctrine of hell. Gehenna is to this day still real. The Jews call it the valley of Bin Hinnom. Gehenna is the Greek word for this valley. Most orthodox Jews, follow the historical account of Gehenna, agreeing with Rabbi David Kimhi (1160-1235), in his comment on Psalm 27:13, in which he says “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”

Gehenna is a physical place, but it started out as a Spiritual Judgment against that apostate Hebrew people who sinned before God. It was set ablaze and defiled by King Josia, to serve as a symbol and sign of the coming judgment against plans of Jerusalem and Judah. Gehenna is the Valley of Ben Hinnom, a valley that was desecrated by the apostate Hebrew people who sacrificed their children to the idols of foreign gods such as Moloch and Baal. It is just outside the walls of Jerusalem in the territory of Benjamin and Judah.

Now, we must recognize a few things. It WAS a loathsome place, and WAS continually on fire; it WAS a symbol and sign of a coming judgment. Today, it is NO LONGER a loathsome place, it is NO LONGER on fire and NO LONGER a symbol and sign of a coming judgment.

We must recognize when Gehenna is used, it is used as: 1) A Judgment 2) A garbage dump.

A famous quote by Rudyard Kipling goes: “I keep six honest serving men. They taught me all I know. Their names are what and why, and when and how, and where and who?” Another man less famous than Kipling states a similar truth in the following manner: “It will greatly help you to understand scripture if you note – not only what is spoken and written, but of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows.”


christiananrkist 3 years ago

I agree fully with those closing quotes. great advice for anyone who wants to read not only the bible but anything. what do you make of Matthew 25:41? the word gehenna isnt used in this case.A word that is used is "Aeonian". which does not mean extinction. the definition is eternal or unending. not too relevant at the moment, but could be later.


Andy 3 years ago

Sword... the whole point of this Hub is that hell is 'not' eternal punishment. It is destruction.

Chris... thanks for your questions. One thing to keep in mind is that words back then did not have the same meaning as they do today. One example is the word 'forever'. For us today it means beyond death. Back then it meant 'as long as I live.'

Find more info here...



Andy 3 years ago


Andy 3 years ago

Sorry I'm being lazy, friends. Feeling under the weather...



christiananrkist 3 years ago

@andy

Thank you for the websites. maybe i shouldnt ask my question before i read them,but in matthew 25:46 it uses the same word for eternal "aiōnion" in regards to punishment for the wicked and life for the righteous. do you believe we have eternal life?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Matt 25:41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

The Jew who did not repent and believe in the messiah was the one on the left and were cut down AD70 (Matt 3:10).

Where, when, who, and why.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

what do you mean by cut down? Who do you believe the adversary and his messengers is? what version are you getting this from? just curious, because every version i have looked at says the devil


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

This is our carnal nature, and the messengers are the fallen who succumbed to their desire and lust for the daughters of men found in Gen 6. What I wrote about the messengers may not be correct, but it is at the moment as I see it.

As for being cut down, read Matt 3:10.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

I'm still a little confused. probably because i been asking the wrong questions. so when people are cut down and thrown into the fire, what does mean? another question comes to mind. do you believe Jesus saved us by his work on the cross? if so, what are we saved from?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Matt 3:10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Lets break it down as to what John meant...The ax (Rome) is already (The Roman occupation of Judah) at the root (Jerusalem) of the trees (Jews Isaiah 60:21), and every tree (Jew) that does not produce good fruit (repent and believe in their messiah) will be cut down (Slaughtered) and thrown into the fire (Thrown into Gehenna's fire).

We are saved from our sleep from the grave and from ourselves.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

how does this pertain to us? or does it even pertain to us? Can you break this one down as well?

matthew 3:11-12

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE.His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable FIRE.”

Is John saying Jesus is to throw people into gehenna?

Also if i may ask the same question to you as i did to andy, in matthew 25:46 it uses the same word for eternal "aiōnion" in regards to punishment for the wicked and life for the righteous. do you believe we have eternal life?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Do you believe that time exists in Heaven?


Andy 3 years ago

The belief that everyone goes to heaven undermines the life of Christ. Why did he have to die then? Why is there a plan of slavation? If we all go to heaven then what was this life for in the first place? If everyone is saved then what was the flood about? It's a rather sad belief that all the suffering on this planet was for naught, if we're all going to heaven anyway. If we all go to heaven then why do we need morals?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Andy, I have already answered the question why Christ had to die. If you had read my previous posts, you would of noticed it, and I also found your response about all going to heaven disturbing. It is as if it is not fair. "Why should I have to worship and be good if all are going to heaven anyways"? I would thought that the thought that all are saved would bring, peace and joy to your heart but it appears it doesn't. You remind me of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son.


Andy 3 years ago

You may have answered the question about why Christ had to die, to your own satisfaction, but you've ignored the others. What about morals? If we're all going to heaven then we can do whatever we please?? This should make me happy?? It is this very ideology that has the world in the state is is today. Also... in your earlier comments you called me a spiritual terrorist. Now you call me the brother of the prodigal son... so who's really doing the mudslinging?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

You teach the doctrine of hell, creating fear of punishment making the listener who fears this doctrine fall out of perfect love with God. You promote Judgement triumph's over mercy and that quality's you as a spiritual terrorist. You have shown that you would not share in the joy and peace that all are saved just as the older brother would not celebrate his younger brother's return. No mudslinging here, just calling it as it is, and if that bothers you, I hold no joy in that, but as the saying goes, "the truth hurts".


Andy 3 years ago

Still no answers, or even opinions for that matter, on my questions about the plan of salvation, the flood or morals....


Andy 3 years ago

Swordo you say Mat. 7 is referring to the Jews only. By this reasoning then, some believing Jews will be turned away yet all unbelieving Gentiles will get to heaven... this makes sense to you? Very poor exegesis my friend....


christiananrkist 3 years ago

Do I believe time exists in heaven? I guess it depends on your definition of time. that probably seems like a strange question, but the way some people talk about time like its something physical, I may or may not agree. If its what dictionary.com says "the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.", then yes I do. you can make your point with your question, but of course I have another one for you as well. What do you think will happen to people who reject God's gift and who dont want a relationship with him. Are they to go to heaven and be with him against their will? If i may just comment on the prodigal son comment too? that parable shows how the older son was unforgiving of someone who was repentant and admitting that he had sinned against his father. like I stated earlier God is both merciful and just. God forgives us our sins if we repent. you see this in several verses including, Acts 3:19, matthew 4:17, and revelation 2:5. For those who do not repent, God will judge and this is a completely fair and good thing for him to do. would you think it a good thing for an unrepentant murderer to not be punished?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Chris, as long as you believe in time in heaven, there is nothing that I can say to you to prove that hell does not exist. It has been estimated that since the time of Adam until now, approximately 160 billion people have lived and live today and only about 5 billion of them are Christians. How can you call the cross victorious when the other 155 billion are eternally burning now? Hoe does eternally burning them benefit God?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Andy, I already answered the question and I am not in the habit of repeating myself.


Andy 3 years ago

No Swordo, actually you haven't :)


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Christ saved us all from our sleep in the grave.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

I see your point. I do not believe people are burning. people right now are awaiting judgment. i also do not believe hell is a place of torture or burning. When it is described in this manner, its always metaphorical. For instance hell is also described as a fiery furnace and outer darkness as well as being associated with gehenna. this is why i think you may be taking the gehenna thing to literal. also like there are differnt degrees of punishment in our justice system here on earth, there are degrees of punishment in hell. how unlike our justice system, God's judgment will fit the crime and be completely fair. God offers a "pardon" in a sense to those who want it. to those who dont, they get the appropriate punishment. remember the TORMENT not TORTURE comes from the decision people go with instead of accepting Gods grace.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Punishment is corrective, not vindictive. The word hell, if I said to you 300 years ago to go to hell, I would also say afterwards, and get a basket of potatoes. The word hell back then meant "cover". The word hell due to this vile doctrine has replaced words in scripture such as Gehenna, unseen, hades, shoel and tarturus. As to how I understand gehenna, it isn't half as literal than those who interpret it as hell. This prophecy was also backed by Christ with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. As long as you focus on God as the judgmental condemning Father, you will not know the power of perfect love. Because Mercy triumphs over judgement.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Dear fellow Tolstoyan (christiananrkist),

Sword will still not get it. I'm convinced that he is a heretic more and more from the way I see him interacting with myself and others. He even deletes my comments on his hubs now. Similar to Judah's Daughters who would have us believe that over 2/3 of Christendom is going to Hell in handbasket.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword, as one who has just started my conversion process into the Greek Catholic Church (called here in America the Byzantine Catholic Church and some call themselves Orthodox Catholics), I can tell you that your idea of painting all Hell-believers (people who believe in an anguished state of seeming separation from God from the perspective of the tormented but God's love being enacted and them being tormented by that), what you state about us is unfair and untrue.

This is the statement about Hell from St. Stephen's Byzantine Cathedral the main body of the Eparchy of Phoenix:

"for those who hate God, hell is also eternal existence in His loving presence but, according to St. Isaac of Syria, they "will be chastised with the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart which has sinned against love is more piercing than any pain""

That is such a vile, judgmental God us Greek Catholics believe in, right?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

It was you Catholics that adopted this vile doctrine and you throw the word heretic around with hate behind it. In the 13th century, pope innocent the third learned of a new faith movement in southern France called the cathar movement. He immediately called for the aid of all nobles from that region to eradicate these so called heretics and as a reward, the nobles may claim their lands. So the nobles had the incentive of profit to wag war on these innocent people. Thousands upon thousands were tortured, burnt and slaughtered all in the name of God by the Catholic church. Many of the nobles soldiers bathed in the blood of these poor people because they were told by catholic priests that the blood of heretics would cleanse their sins. They were heretics according to the RCC and were murdered by the church, so when ever a catholic calls me a heretic, I only need to think about what happened to the Cathar's to remind me of what a Catholic truly is when he accuses someone a heretic. Hateful!


Andy 3 years ago

As I said before, and as you failed to respond to, punishment is corrective only to those who repent, my friend. For example, there are many, old and young, who can be punished over and over and still refuse to stop doing what they are being punished for.


Andy 3 years ago

Newengland.... may God bless you in your walk with Him. Thanks for reading and commenting!


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So what is punishment to those who reject God Andy?


Andy 3 years ago

Seriously Swordo??? What have we been discussing? Read the Hub. Punishment will be eternal separation from God. If someone rejects God, would be love that says to them 'you're coming to heaven anyway'? Any response to why we need morals? Anything??


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

Have you read any of those heretics? They really weren't the nicest people, you know. Not saying that justifies burning them or that that was the best solution, I'm just saying the heretics weren't without fault either.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Universalism was condemned by Orthodox and Catholics in the sixth century C.E.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Andy, So hell is eternal separation from God is it? The KJV says otherwise. If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalms 139:8.

Paul was a spiritual teacher who brought us the true gospel (which you reject btw), and the blessings of salvation start when we believe (1Tim4:10). We are the beacons of light that should set the example for the world, but for the last 2000 years, we have done a poor job of setting the example. This is why we Christians need morals, but our morals are based on our beliefs. If you believe that God will cast billions into hell, you become what you believe (Dan 3:1-6).

@newenglandsun, Universalism was condemned by both orthodox and the RCC in the 6th century, yet the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church in Constantinople in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381). On top of that, early this year Pope Francis made a startling statement that good atheists will go to heaven as well. Pope John Paul II was a Universalist as well. What's up with that?


Andy 3 years ago

Poor exegesis... if I am in hell, would not the memory of Truth not be with me. Also, the very verse you quote speaks of... what? Hell??? Lol. Fail.

Your references to the early church and popes are irrelevant. In vain theyteach the traditions of men. e


Andy 3 years ago

You also take my question on morals out of context, as expected. If we all go to heaven... then why should we be moral? Why worry about having morals if even unrepentant rapists and molestors can make it to heaven? Is that the heaven you look forward to?


Andy 3 years ago

You advocate that ALL will get to heaven. This will include all religions such as Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu... and of course atheists. However the Bible teaches that there is only one name under heaven in which we are saved... now what? ;)


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Hey, I am only saying what King David wrote, or was he a liar? Universalism is not traditions of men. It is the over all plan of God. What modern day Christianity and pagan religions have in common, it the belief of an underworld. A tradition. Universalists are probably the only people who believe in a God, but don't believe in a underworld. As for your response to morals, rapists and molesters. It is now obvious why you believe in hell. Out of hate. You need hell so these rapists and molesters can burn, burn, BURN FOREVER.

Yet God said love, bless and forgive your enemies. Try it for once, and yes, I look forward to being in heaven with all mankind regardless.

One name and with that name, every knee will bow and tongue confess that Christ is Lord.


Andy 3 years ago

Again, this Hub is about how hell is NOT forever. Lol. Yes all will confess Christ, but as a previous verse cited, He will say to some who say "Lord Lord" I never knew you. Blessing and forgiving enemies have nothing to do with the enemies salvation. Yes salvation is a free gift, but not all will ACCEPT that gift. You still choose to ignore the question on morals, but would rather use it to try to insult. Which you do poorly. Let me try another way... if I am going to heaven anyway, why shouldn't I sleep with a married woman? Or murder? Or lie? Why shouldn't I take that which is not mine? Universalists have no answere for these questions...


Andy 3 years ago

There is only one name under heaven in which we are saved... saved from what?


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Hell is hell how ever you want to candy coat it. I already told you what He saved us from, from the GRAVE. This discussion is losing its allure. I'm done.


Andy 3 years ago

As expected...


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

St. Gregory of Nazianzus asks the question but decides neither for or against it. Within the Catholic and Orthodox Churches it is not at all heretical to at least hope for universalism.

St. Gregory of Nyssa had his writings tampered with by heretics. Neither Gregories were heretical universalists, that would have made them semi-Calvinists.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Dear goodness, Andy!

Dough Batchelor?!? Be very careful. He is a Seventh Day Adventist pastor and they really aren't the most theologically honest.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@newenglandsun. You are not very bright are you? SDAs believe in hell as in annihilation.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

ok swordo, no need to be rude. no one is calling you names for not believing in hell.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

SDA's are historicists and they distort history just to prove it. Their prophetess was wrong so many times. They are a prophetic movement entirely.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Chris, no one is calling me names? Oh really? How about being called a heretic by newenglandsun. I could just as easily call all of you three heretics, but it is not my nature to do so.

@newenglandsun, I am not a SDA or JW, and I also have my personnel views of both these denominations just as I do with the RCC. So answer this, if unbelievers go to hell, why did Pope Francis say that good atheists will also go to heaven?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword, we already discussed this. He said "good atheists", not "all atheists".

You have done nothing but distort my position. I am not saying that all "unbelievers go to hell" nor am I saying that all believers will end up in Heaven.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

A heretic by definition is one who is a sectarian and thinks their part is the whole. A deviant from truth teaching something under the guise of truth but their guise is actually harmful to the faith. Take Arius for example. The Arian heresy sought to reduce Christ to a creature. How then is theosis possible?

The Nestorian heresy sought to demote both Christ and his mother. The monophysite heresy sought to separate man from God inadvertently by denying God was fully man but rather was a mixture. Both also effectively separate man from God.

What does universalism do? It teaches "God raping us" (McGrath, 178, Studies in Doctrine).


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I never said that Pope Francis said that all atheists will go to heaven, Stop twisting what I said. So do good atheists go to heaven?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

I don't know to be honest. My answer would be "yes" though. If they desire and seek God.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

An atheist does not desire to seek what it does not believe in, so is your Pope right or wrong?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

What does seeking God look like? For an atheist, it looks different than for a Muslim or a Hindu.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

A muslim or hindue believe in their gods, and atheists don't believe in any god therefore they don't seek any god because they have rejected Him. So is your Pope right or wrong? Do good atheists go to heaven?


christiananrkist 3 years ago

Forgive me, if i may interject with a quick scripture.

romans 3:10

As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;

Atheists would not go to heaven, for there is none who are good. atheists by their very definition and nature reject God.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Please stay out of this Chris, I already know your view. My question was addressed to newenglandsun,


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword, all I am asking you is to ask is what seeking God looks like. There are some gods that we reject such as Zeus and Odin and Mercury. So when you say an atheist, Hindu, or Muslim inherently rejects God, you really aren't being reasonable.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

christiananrkist,

Convenient of you to leave the following verses out:

Matt. 12:30, Matt. 25:31-46, Mk. 9:40, Lk. 11:23, and Rom. 2:13


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

I said nothing about Hindus or Muslims seeking God, I am talking about what Pope Francis said about good atheists. Seeking God is from and with the heart of the believer, but the atheist believes in nothing and has no reason to seek a god they don't believe in, so I ask you again. Is Pope Francis right?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Matt. 12:30, Matt. 25:31-46, Mk. 9:40, Lk. 11:23, and Rom. 2:13

Yes. And I would strongly disagree with you on the idea that atheists can't seek God just because they don't believe in him. If they can't seek him, then by logic, they can't argue against his existence.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So now you are telling me that you don't have to believe in God to be saved as long as you are good? Gotcha


newenglandsun 3 years ago

You cannot do good apart from Christ regardless of whether you get that or not.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Romans 6; 7 enough said...if you are acquitted from sin then how can you possibly be punished further?


Andy 3 years ago

Swordo... this is the comments section of a Hub

As such it is not up to you to tell 'anyone' to "stay out of" anything. Got it? You want chris to stay out because you already know his view? The truth is we 'all' know your view... so now what? On top of that 'you' are the one who said previously that you were done here. Yet you come back and tell others not to comment? Get real. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. ;)


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Get off your high horse andy.


Andy 3 years ago

Lol... pot, kettle, black


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Dannytaylor,

your view of atonement is heretical. Roman Catholics teach satisfaction. Greek Catholics teach Christus victor. I can assure you, we were NOT saved from God's wrath nor did someone have to die in order for us to be forgiven. Logic there = epic fail.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@newenglandsun. Everyone is a heretic to you outside of your belief system.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

We were all heretics at one point in our lives. That was when we were children and we were exploring alternatives rather than accepting the wisdom of our parents.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

And Sword,

You would actually agree with me that we weren't saved from God's wrath, right? So where's your complaint?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So are you and I still heretics?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

What do you think we were saved from?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Newenglandsun

My point is heretical towards what catholics believe but not to what the bible teaches big difference:)

Most people these days see right through Catholicism


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

We are saved from the binding chains of sin. But we can still lock ourselves back into it.

Dannytaylor,

Your view was foreign to the Church up until the 16th century C.E. Good luck defending that now. That God would delude 60% of all Christians is abominable and only taught in heretical Calvinism.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new, we are saved from our unconscious sleep in the grave. Christ finished it when He said "I am done". He did not say afterwards "Now it is up to them to seek salvation". The cross was and will always be victorious. It was God's work to save us, not ours. You are right, we are saved from the bondage of sin, yet we still harvest what we sow. If I murder a man, I forfeit the right to live. If I hate my brother, then I also will be hated. If I judge without mercy, I to will so be judged.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Christ's work defeated death and sin on behalf of all. However, one must react to this or they will be left in chains forever.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Newenglandsum

Your view was foreign to the early christians which your religion fed to the lions and it was also foreign to the jews, and now thank god that we have left the age of ignorance (funnily enough an age of ignorance brought on by Catholicism keeping the bible hidden from the masses by keeping it in a foreign language) now that we all have read the bible ourselves you cant fool us anymore because its the for all to see :)


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new, that becomes works. When you have to work for your salvation, you are no better and just as ignorant as the Jews were.


Andy 3 years ago

Any comments about what the Bible refers to as the first and second deaths? (Rev. 2:11, Rev. 20:6, 14, Rev. 21:8)

:)


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Danny,

PSA is the pagan, Baal worship religion here.

http://spectrummagazine.org/node/4768

Sword, grace requires a response. The works are always done by and through Christ. The fact that he has already won the battle is proof that theosis (entering into the community of oneness with the divine) is possible.

Andy,

The first death, my guess would be physical death. The second death spiritual death. Hence why St. Augustine, in his work entitled City of God, argues the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation is a spiritual resurrection. Revelation is filled with a lot of figurative language and while its interesting to study, it is the hardest book to derive eschatological doctrine from. It still is very useful for deriving moral teachings and exercising worship practices from.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

The second death is the second destruction of the Jewish religion. Their spiritual death. The Babylonians destroyed the temple 1st circa BC400, and Rome destroyed the 2nd temple AD70 ending the old covenant allowing the new covenant to be God's new way. This was prophesized by Christ when He used the parable in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

That would be a valid interpretation as well so long as you still maintain the position that there will be an antichrist spirit influenced by the Devil that Christ must destroy.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/cate...


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

His name is Nero.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Oh dear. You are denying the real presence of the Devil? Look, he's not a scare tactic, okay? Yes, he is real, yes he has minions, and yes, he uses them to throw you into deception.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Who are you talking to New?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Newenglandsum

That is a good article but it doesnt say anything about hell.

I personally cant think of a bigger slander against god than hell, atheism is far less offensive! They say there is no god whereas you are insinuating that he tortures people for all eternity...


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

Was talking to you.

Danny,

You have severe misconceptions of Hell.

http://newenglandsun.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/hell...


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new, do you know how the Jews understood the words Satan and devil?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Um...yeah. As I have a Hebrew professor who constantly emphasizes this as we go over Job. Yet nevertheless, the Christian faith is built on both Old and New Testaments. Chances are, you'll run across a scholar who attributes Job to being written in the time of the Babylonian exile which would mean Zoroastrian influence, which would mean the chances are strong that they took the Satan as a literal person/being.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

That may be possible. I understand satan as our adamic carnal nature.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Newenglandsun

Nope I dont believe that I do. Your idea of hell is based on the lie that our soul is eternal, read Ezekiel 18:4 and also take note of Jesus's words when he says we should not fear those that can kill the body but fear the one that can destroy both body and soul in sheol (gehena, HELL)

It doesnt matter what your opinion of hell it only matters what the bible says about it because god is the ONLY person qualifiy to judge...even jesus said to satan "let Jehovah (yahweh) rebuke you"

So in your studies of job did you see the verse when job say "protect my soul in hell" he said this because he knew what hell means...death.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Newenglandsun apologies because you clearly dont believe the soul is eternal!!


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Oh dear, you are misinterpreting death. It is actually more-so a lie to say that the soul's immortality is not founded on scriptures. It is.

http://www.arcane-az.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/1...


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Can you tell me which ones support immortality of the soul?

I have already quoted two which simply cannot be construed any other way other than exactly what it says.

I want you to quote me some because right now your arguing with your own messiah jesus ;)


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Oh please don't quote me 1 Corinthians 15:53...yes that scripture tells us that the soul can BECOME immortal but it certainly does not mean that the soul is immortal since birth. surely it makes sense that we need to prove ourselves before we gain immortality rather than god giving us immortality and now because humans rebel against him he creates an eternal hell to punish us forever?

Without going into scripture (since you are clearly incapable of doing so successfully anyway and have ignored pretty much all of the great scriptures this hub has quoted) can't we look at it from a common sense perspective?

We are made in the image of god and our natural inclination to the idea of such a place existing is disgust. Surely gods natural inclination of such a place existing is the same, but he has the right to feel even more aggrieved because certain people have said that HE created it and they try to convince people of it using HIS word?

How angry do you think god is at people like you calling him a sadistic pyromaniac? thankfully for you not angry enough to torture you forever!

The problem with my common sense analogy is that as we all know common sense is dead...


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dannytaylor02 did you really say that Shoel and Gehenna are the same thing?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

uhm excuse me...sheol either way the point is that jesus said both body and soul is destroyed so no detracting from that point!


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Only God is immortal of himself. He fashions the soul as immortal.

Hebrews 4:12 - Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (NRSV Catholic Edition)

You believe whatever the Bible says so you reject what the fathers have to say. Naturally, because none of them ever support you.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dannytaylor02 Shoel is the grave and Gehenna is a real place just outside Jerusalem that is symbolic for God's coming judgement on Judah.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

HAHA newenglandsun and there we have that classic catholic knowledge we have all learned to love to hate...you have just come out with a load of jibberish and tried to make out as if it is actually a good answer to my question?

So I ask you to quote from the bible and you give me a quote of your own or perhaps one of your so called saints? not good enough I am afraid.

Can you explain what your last sentence actually means? I believe whatever the bible says so I reject what the fathers have to say?

Who are these fathers and why should I listen to them over the bible AND why would I want them to support me rather than gods word?

@SOM yeah I know I got confused :S anyway look at Mathew 10:28 for a proper translation!

Gehenna is used in the bible to illustrate hell its not just a place in the bible


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dannytaylor02, Regarding Matt10:28. Who said these words, who did He speak them to, why did He speak these words, when was it spoken and how were they spoken? Learn this and you may by God's will get a better understanding of what Christ really said and came to do.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

@SOM

Oh dear, sword I had you down as a reasonable thinking person too.

Jesus said them to his apostles so that they would have the courage to carry out their ministerial work. He said it so that they wouldn't worry about the persecution that they would inevitably go through.

That is the context of the scripture so I do not understand your point?

I think the problem is that you have been told that hell exists and you accepted it without ever really questioning for yourself if it does exist or not. As we get older we become more cynical and tend to stick to what we believe so now your left in a very difficult situation where you need to try to justify your belief in hell despite the overwhelming evidence against it...that is clear when you try to misconstrue such a simple verse in Mathew and try to complicate it enough to make out that it means something other than what its actually saying!!

These twisted tactics don't work in the long run im afraid you just delay the inevitable. you will identify the truth by its fruitage, Catholics are rapidly declining and for good reason.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dannytaylor02. Ok, I will answer it for you. 1Christ, 2Jews, 3to save them from God's wrath AD70, 4Just before Passover (the 1st of 3 ancient Jewish festivals) and before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as prophesized, and last, 5spiritually (John 3:63). About 9 months ago I read your hub called "Bible Questions - Bible Teaching on Hell" and I responded by saying "Great hub friend" and you thanked me. I don't believe in hell, but I do know that God wills all to be saved (1Tim2:4) and I say "Your will be done".


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

@SOM

well I do remember that but then why are you arguing with my point about god being able to destroy the soul? I was only bringing it out to show newenglandsun that the soul is not eternal so there is no need for a hell to put them in.

Yeah mate god will all to be saved and there will be a resurrection of the righteous along with the unrighteous which is a good assurance for us.

I like that point you bring out about god wanting everyone to be saved which I naturally agree with but I certainly don't want their ideas o be saved as well (hell for example.)

Sorry I misunderstood what you where trying to say sword lets just agree to disagree with newengland :)

P.S sure it was to aid them during the end of their days but it is still a lesson for us now and his point I think was to help us to put into perspective who we should fear, not man but god regardless of the being jew, English, American or indeed French!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

When a man dies, his soul ends. I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I sided with New. as for fear...1John4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Dannytaylor says:

"HAHA newenglandsun and there we have that classic catholic knowledge we have all learned to love to hate...you have just come out with a load of jibberish and tried to make out as if it is actually a good answer to my question?"

I gave you a verse supporting that the soul is not just a physical inner component of man. I then presented you the evidence of the Church fathers who are far closer to the Biblical source than you are. I also gave you an article proving the soul as distinct from the physical and you still mock the Church and her magisterium? You are worse than Sword.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@New, well at least we are not part of a church responsible of murdering millions or collaborating with Nazis during ww2.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Wow, Sword, you really aren't that bright are you?

Look up, "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" written by a Rabbi. Honestly, there's nothing you'll get by against a double-major in history and religion when it comes to history or religion.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-236597

Read and weep sword, read and weep.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new, lets set aside the Nazi collaboration part and look at the millions murdered all in the name of God by the RCC.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

I believe I have already addressed that. You'll get scholars ranging from various opinions (some I think are more bunk than others). No scholar would contend that there were "millions murdered". Maybe if you calculate crusades but even that's debatable. And crusades were largely considered just wars by the Catholic Church. I haven't studied them as much though, sorry. You might try reading Rodney Stark on this subject.

As for the inquisitions, my own view which has come from what I've been able to read and study (I would like to actually be able to write a book about all of this medieval era stuff) I would have to say that the people killed in the inquisition were hardly "martyrs". In fact, they were actually quite arrogant and I nearly threw up reading some of their arrogance. I went into reading them from a perspective much like yours though. As for witch-trials, I'd contend there was much more politics involved in them and that the politicians took what the clerics wrote and used it to foister their own lusts.

There were probably somewhere around 45,000-90,000 killed in about 500 years of witch-hunts, mostly by secular judges misusing clerical writings on demonology as well as the banned Malleus Maleficarum. There were probably 10,000 killed during 700 years of inquisitions. Mostly arrogant and not helpless men. There were probably 900,000-2,000,000 killed in crusades and holy wars.

Were the inquisitions justifiable? I'd say yes. Were they the best solution to the problem? I'd say no.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

@newenglandsun

You did not give me a verse supporting that at all you gave me this:

Hebrews 4:12 - Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (NRSV Catholic Edition)

How has that answered what I asked for? let me remind you that I asked you to show me a verse in the bible that tells me that the soul is immortal not that the soul and spirit is separate...Also what is your interpretation of what the spirit is anyway, do you think that its an actual person?

Please leave your fathers out of this, I suppose one of your fathers is Thomas moore who burned countless thousands of people for "daring" to have a bible in their own language so that they can read it for themselves rather than having you people force your opinion of it down our gullets...how do I know catholocism isn't the truth? for one they made this Thomas moore a SAINT not that long ago, disgusting. if he is closer to the true source than I am then god is a maniac

The catholic church killed more Christians than muslims during the middle ages because they were "heretics" how can you defend that?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new. It is not about how many were murdered, it is about your church being responsible for murder in the name of God. A church only needs to murder one person to be responsible for murder, and your RCC murdered many.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Both inquisitions and witch-trials were carried out in juridicial procedure run by either the secular or religious. Scholars debate over that. No one was "murdered".


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Thomas Moore is responsible for having burned Lord Byron's memoirs. Please leave your conspiracy propaganda out of it.

I've already explained that these heretics were heretics in the truest sense of the term. The Cathars were practically a "holier than thou" movement. What have you to say of your martyrs now?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

So what you are saying is that those so called heretics deserved being killed?


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

"holier than thou", so they deserved to die because they were according to you, more self-righteous than your RCC?


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

You most certainly have not explained they were heretics, you said they where arrogant and considering what they were up against I can forgive them for that. It isn't conspiracy theory its fact.

What have I to say about my martyrs (Witnesses) now? well in case you haven't noticed they are all around you and your religion like the locust plague of revelation exposing your religion for exactly what it is.

Not much point in continuing this discussion because catholocism is already a defeated opponent, its a falling statue that is about to hit the floor. You can either go down with it or come to your senses, honestly its a much better way of living anyway and it makes sense alongside the idea that god is a "god of love.".


newenglandsun 3 years ago

I'm saying that executing them was not the best solution, however, the heretics were hardly helpless, the heretics were always fairly questioned, and so, yes, they kind of brought it on themselves sadly.

Danny,

Arius was the worst of them.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new. You have no love, pity or mercy in your heart. May you harvest what you sow, because you judge without mercy and therefore you will so be judged.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Sword,

Here's a highly recommended book.

http://www.amazon.com/Heresy-Authority-Medieval-Eu...

Buy the book, read the documents, now see who's the merciless judge here.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

No. I don't need anything you have to show me. You are what I said earlier and a product of your church. During the siege of Béziers, the crusaders asked how they should know the catholics from the heretic cathars, and Caesarius of Heisterbach quotes an abbot saying this “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius". It means "Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His” using A verse from scripture to justify this atrocity 2Tim2:19. Over 20.000 men, women and children were butchered by the RCC in this town all in the name of God.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

That was to preserve the unity of the faith. You and I obviously need more in-depth historical study on this.

http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/how-to-explain...

Perhaps Thomas Madden can help us both out? I'd like to read Stark's book on this subject.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

To preserve unity of the faith? Are you mad? The preservation of the unity of the faith does not justify murder in God's name.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

If there is a perceived threat, which there was, then it is not murder, it self-defense. You are the one who is mad.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

What ever happened with turning the other cheek? Oh, I forgot. The RCC doesn't turn the other cheek. They kill, loot and torture first and make up excuses later.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Wow, Sword, you are an incredulous idiot. And a heretic.

Honestly, both you and Dannytaylor have played the "holier than thou" game. I came here in genuine love, honesty, and integrity. All you two did was just bash the Catholic Church. Know why they burned heretics? This is precisely why.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Turn the other cheek, for the record, deals with retributive violence. Not judiciary or protective violence. How many times do I have to say this? And you still won't get it Sword. You have run from the Truth into your own little corner of loneliness and theological self-indulgence. Creating a Hell for yourself all the while attempting to claim its not real.

I will leave you be to your own ramblings Sword. You can attack others you disagree with and you can feel free to believe your the innocent one. You're not though.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@new. At least I wont kill those I disagree with you murderer.


newenglandsun 3 years ago

"@new. At least I wont kill those I disagree with you murderer."

And here, you combat with ad hominem. Honestly, if that's your best tactic, then you will always be seen as a combative belligerent. I am praying that God relieves your tensions and hostility, Sword.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Haha sword, anyone with any sense of spirituality will see the gaping inconsistencies in what newenglandsun is saying and what the bible says.

Frankly it is a compliment that he calls us a heretic because we most certainly are heretical towards catholic views.

Funny thing is I am sure if most of your "saints" where to alive today they would apologize and change their ways, we live in the age of enlightenment unlike them...I can forgive your "fathers" ignorance but you have no excuse because you are not shrouded in ignorance, you just choose to be.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dan. I agree. I have friends who are Catholics, but they don't share that hateful view that new has for those outside of their church, and neither does his Pope.


Dannytaylor02 profile image

Dannytaylor02 3 years ago from United Kingdom, Liverpool

Haha sounds like he has his own religion then based on medieval ideas


newenglandsun 3 years ago

Dannytaylor,

So you deny what historic Christianity has always taught which is that we have to work it. We are all prone to stumble.

You really are a heretic big time. No wonder you have to resort to mocking.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Dan, look who is calling the kettle black?


newenglandsun 3 years ago

All you two have ever done is mock. I am DONE with you both!


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

See ya, hate to be ya.

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