Evolution is Fact (Christianity, Islam & Judaism are wrong)

Today's Sad Truth :(
Today's Sad Truth :(

It is utterly painful when people claim that evolution is a theory and not a fact. It is as much a fact as the Earth being spherical is a fact. You might say that the Earth being spherical is a theory, but it's a true theory, a fact.


Adorableness - A byproduct of evolution
Adorableness - A by-product of evolution
Prickly heat = prickly plants?
Prickly heat = prickly plants? | Source

In the present

We can see evolution happen, we have seen evolution happen, we have it documented, it makes logical sense.

We fight against evolution every day, bacteria are evolving so fast that we no longer have vaccination for strains of super-resistant TB (tuberculosis) and it's also the reason we have no cure for the cold or the flu, which evolves so fast that by the time medicine is produced, it is obsolete.

In the present, we know 99.9% that genetic mutation is the cause of evolution, but even then, it doesn't matter, because we know 100% that evolution is happening because we can physically observe it happening.

Some animals survive better than others of their kind in their environment. The alternative is that every animal has equal chances of surviving. Much like saying a man with no legs has equal chances of winning a leg race. If every animal had the same chances of surviving due to "gods will" etc then certain innocent species would not go extinct.

Furry Example
Polar bears which are white will outcompete their brown counterparts in the arctic because they camouflage in the snow and can hunt easier. They live to reproduce. It's a simple fact.

Spiny Example
Catcti have evolved so that what was leaves on the previous ancestor are now spines to protect them from predators! Unlike most other plants, the stem is where plants photosynthesise, not the leaves which are now protective spines. Cacti also have long shallow roots so that when there is rain, the roots will capture as much of the water for the plant as possible. Deep roots would have meant a low surface area for catching the water.


The fossil record for horses feet are particularly strong
The fossil record for horses feet are particularly strong

The past is more questionable

The past is more questionable
All debates that arise about evolution in the scientific community are all about HOW evolution happened in the past. It is a debate of the HISTORY of evolution. No one is disputing that evolution isn't happening.

The HISTORICAL aspects argued about arise because the only way of finding out history is by looking at things left over from there. Fossils are the main source for life and not every single organism would have been preserved as fossils. Naturally then, there will be missing links in the historical timeline of the more than 30 million different species whose history is trying to be identified today.

To say evolution is not fact because there are "missing links" In some fossil records is the same as saying "the holocaust didn't happen because we don't know the name of Hitler's wife"

The pope sees the truth with the aid of his new 'hand made' spectacles.
The pope sees the truth with the aid of his new 'hand made' spectacles.

The Popes

To show just how obviously true evolution is, I've provided links that announce how the popes admit evolution is true or that there is significant evidence for it

Bear in mind just how big of a deal that is, when the heads of the major Church in the world have said that there is huge evidence against what they profess in their texts, the illusion is broken.

Pope Benedict Admits Strong Evidence for Evolution
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/TFCLSKITIEMVB1V36

" “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favour of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

Pope John Paul II Publicly Admits He Supports Evolution
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/25/world/pope-bolsters-church-s-support-for-scientific-view-of-evolution.html

Dinosaur

Don't deny my existence! D:
Don't deny my existence! D: | Source

Comments

Please feel free to post your views on this topic. Although I cannot see how many different views could be listed about such a simple fact.

Evolution of course dismisses and disproves religious notions of a god that instantly created all of the animals the way there are.

But it's not like evolution was the first to do such a thing:

Dinosaurs
Dinosaurs were never mentioned in the the three monotheistic religious texts. References to 'dragons' yes, 'beasts', yes. Dinosaurs - no.

And before you say "maybe the ancients found the dinosaur bones and interpreted them as 'dragons' or 'beasts'" let me remind you that the Bible, Qu'ran and Torah are all purportedly the word of God, so if God had MEANT dinosaurs he would have had DINOSAURS written.

Where is there doubt and uncertainty when it is God writing these texts through the medium of human beings? God knows all after all, he knew they were dinosaurs.

To use that argument would concede to the fact that the bible is not the word of God but of human beings.

"God put fossils in the ground to test our faith" Oh I see! So God WANTED a creation that would in the face of all evidence against him, blindly follow him?


If only
If only

Objective Points

For those of you that take an abstract and flexible interpretation of the Bible to make it begin to make some sort of sense: here is a table showing what modern science gives great evidence for:

Event - Years ago

Big Bang - 15,000 million
Birth of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon - 4600 million
Emergence of Life (Pre-cellular Life) - 3800 million
Inorganic Release of Trace Amount of Oxygen -3700 million
Origin of Photo-synthetic Bacteria - 3200 million
Advent of Oxygen-rich Atmosphere - 2000 million
Development of Sexual Reproduction - 1100 million
Spread of Jawless Fishes - 505 million
First Amphibians -408 million
First Reptiles - 360 million
First Dinosaurs and Mammal-like Reptiles; Origin of Mammals - 248 million
First Birds - 213 million
Australopithecus - 4 million
Homo Habilis - 2.2 million
Homo Erectus - 1.5 million
Homo Sapiens - 200 thousand
Modern Humans (homo Sapiens Sapiens)- 35 thousand

And here is the order given to us in Genesis:

Creation of Day and Night - "Day" 1
Creation of Heaven - "Day" 2
Creation of the Earth, the Seas, and the Plants - "Day" 3
Creation of the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars - "Day" 4
Creation of Fishes and Birds [Beginning of Sexual Reproduction] - "Day" 5
Creation of Land Animals (Cattle, Insects, Reptiles, Man) - "Day" 6
No Further Emergence of Life Forms on Earth - "Day" 7

Spot the difference!

-My favourite part is when the sun was created after the plants.
-But also when reptiles appeared after the birds.

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Comments 37 comments

christiananrkist 3 years ago

@philathropy

looks like the rest was cut off. not sure how that h happened. .

(So you weren't joking, this is a grave matter indeed. Tell me where there is a fault in the following logic:

Genesis is an account of how life was created. Dinosaurs take up 99% of life's history on Earth.

Therefore, even the most basic writer would mention dinosaurs in an account of how life was created.)

Because they don't pertain to our life. If the bible mentions dinosaurs, then what? What are people to learn or take from that? The purpose of the creation account of Genesis to simply communicate that God created everything. Not to give a detailed account of the creation of everything. Does it really need to mention every type of plant, animal, insect, rock and give a detailed account of those things?

(So you think that God was so kind as to make the bible written in poetry for people to remember?

But at the same time he deliberately made it impossible to gauge what he meant in doing so?

So in essence he let people memorise things that didn't make any sense to them? What a kind god indeed!)

What do you mean by he made it impossible to gauge what he meant? They knew exactly what he meant. People today who understand that different cultures didn't live the same as we do knows what it means. It isn't an impossible read. We just have to take in to account the times and places it was written. This is what historians do by the way with all historical documents.

(Even if all of that were true (which none of it can be) it would move us no further into the idea that God is actually real and contributed anything at all to our creation. The most you could say is "evolution has no evidence, God's creation has no evidence, therefore we should believe in neither."Blindly obeying your parents/pastor/community/TV character so that you convince yourself you have 'blind faith' is not the answer to the debate.)

I don't blindly believe anything. I don't agree with everything my pastor or parents say. I do debate them and other Christians as well on issues. It seems like your presupposing that I just accept whatever is said to me just because I'm christian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember using to term “faith” in our conversation. I even hesitate to quote the bible because i know you don't believe it. I still did, but only to try to make a point. Also this whole thing is in response to your hub. I'm not trying to prove God. I have only been responding to the claims of a hub that you wrote. In turn, we have asked questions of each other. I don't remember ever being asked to prove God though. I thought this was more about evolution.


christiananrkist 3 years ago

@philanthropy

I'm not offended at all. I have enjoyed conversing with you on this matter. We obviously don't agree , but that's what makes it interesting to me. So, thank you again for your time and hope to have many other debates with you with this or even other topics. Fan of the NFL? Lol. Just kidding. Kind of.

(Since he made us suffer because of this, he is not all loving.)

How have we suffered because God stopped creating certain things?

(So you admit that believing in God makes no logical sense. Good.)

How am I admitting that?

(It doesn't matter whether they do or not, the fact is they were forcefully removed in agonising pain in this existence - enter sadism.)

Agonizing pain? In what way? I think the creator can remove anything he wants. Its his creation after all. I don't even see how this would be considered cruel.

(This to say "don't think for yourself, that will get yourself into trouble")

To be honest, many people do get themselves into trouble this way. I don't think that's what this passage says though. This is more like the scenario of a 2 year old (or younger, whatever) questioning his father about not touching the stove. Sure his father could explain why, but he still may not completely understand. Then when he does touch it he blames his father. Which is what people actually do with God all the time.

( Do you not think it is pathetic to assume some being has infinite knowledge when there is no reason to believe he exists?)

This is an assumption on your part. I do have my reasons, as do many others. I'm sure you come across many Christians who don't know why they believe what they do. I do too all the time. I also come across many atheists in the same boat. In fact I'd say the majority of atheists I come in contact with don't believe in God simply because of something bad that happen in their own life. Does this alone make it untrue? I would never call anyone pathetic however for disagreeing with me on anything.

(It is the same as me saying to you "go forth and give me all your stationary and toiletries" and when you question why I will tell you "I am far superior than your intelligence, do not question me for I am greater - just do it fool". You wouldn't believe me because your sense of rationality will kick in and stop you. Maybe if I wrote an entire book about it though..)

lol. There is a little more to the bible and Christianity than that, but you make a valid point. I probably would question you, even if you did have superior knowledge to me, with such a bizarre request. If you humor me for just a second and suppose a creator of all things did exists, do you think he would be wrong in saying “just trust me on things that can't to known to you”? Which is pretty much the scenario of the 2 year old and his father.

(So God who created all of us in his image, made most of us today so that we would want instant gratification and fail to please him? Therefore, he punishes us?)

I'm sure you've heard the free will argument til you wanna vomit, so I wont bore you too much with it. In a nutshell though we have free will. If we choose to do things that are evil, that's on us. We can't blame God for it. I'm gonna start sounding like an old man crabbing about this generation, but this generation doesn't wanna take responsibility for anything bad that happens to them. Just go to work and see how many people avoid the blame whenever anything troublesome happens.

(Tell me, what is God's plan when he lets a child of two years old choke on a lego piece? What about when a child is born with leukemia? I ask because I love making theists say "we don't know God's plan" as if that's some sort of actual answer to anything.)

Touche, because I am gonna say I don't know. How am I to know what God's plan is for every single thing that happens? I already said I believe our knowledge compared to God's to be less than that of an infant to Einstein. I think “i don't know” is a legitimate answer if you don't know. Have you never used that phrase? What was Da' Vinci thinking when he painted mona lisa?

(When humans suffer and then strengthen from it, we call it 'learning'.)

Ok.

(Actually you gave me 5 invalid scientists.

[and could give 100.] Please do.)

Invalid? In what way? By the way when I said 100, I was using what's known as hyperbole. I'm sure you know what it is. It just means I can give a lot. Also I think its kinds of a waste of space to give so many, since i doubt you look up every single one. If you really want though, I can give on the next answer.

(Naming 5 scientists that believe in evolution isn't an argument - why would I respond with one?)

Because your original claim was that NO ONE DISPUTED evolution. I gave 5 secular scientists that did. I dispute it as well. Who am I? No one special or brilliant, but I am someone.

(Precisely, just like "we now know that evolution is a fact and that God's account of genesis is untrue.")

Or until or next textbook says we used to believe that mutated cells caused creatures to form over time, we know...

(Same argument: just because I don't know how my grandmother created the universe doesn't mean I should believe she never did it.)

this was actually YOUR type of argument in the first place. I was merely trying to make a point. So the grandmother thing is an example I should be using on you. I guess we could just both agree that neither one of us accepts this.

([The horse thing you showed is full of failed growths] ???

[and there are no parts under construction.] ???

Sorry? You can clearly see how minute structural changes lead to the formation of the modern horse's foot and legs today. The changes are so slight that it would be unthinkable to deny that there is a link between those organisms...)

I guess I don't clearly see what your seeing. Could you point something out to me. Also I understand that other reading may be complex and lengthy, but I really don't accept wikipedia as valid evidence for these kinds of issues. It just isn't reliable. Its more useful for things like how much protein is in a T-bone. I can promise you I will never cite anything about Christianity using wikipedia.

(Erm, this is awkward... You are different from your other family members not because you evolved from the same organism as them but because of natural variation in the human gene pool.)

Sure, I have different features. My over all structure though is that of a human. Just like the over all structure of a dog is a dog. I could even agree with the horse development if they were just different types of horses. When I ask for evidence of transitional forms, I'm looking for things like scales turning into feathers and major changes over a period of time. If evolution were true in that it takes millions of years, we would see things like this in the fossil records. Even with some gaps.

(I don't understand what this meant either, could you clarify?)

I think the missing link called Lucy was famous in 90's maybe. Everyone was sure they had found a missing link to humans they had been searching for between primate and man. It didn't last too long as a valid claim however, since it was determined to just me an extinct breed of monkey or primate. I forget all the details really.

Evolutionists now imagine it to be this branching bush. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/NAkwUIvaSFw/UMjg301TZJI/A... You can see a lot of what they thought to be ancestors apparently lived at the same time, especially after Mesohippus. It doesn't seem likely that Hyracotherium has any connection to horses. The progression of toes is an illusion that was useful when the theory of evolution was first being sold to the public.

( And why not? There is more evidence for him to be so than God himself. Why does reason trump blind faith here? Would you believe in him blindly if your priest said so?)

I'm sorry, I don't wanna be rude, but I'm not going to comment on the pope anymore. This is like asking me to comment on the Quran.

(So you weren't joking, this is a grave matter indeed. Tell me where there is a fault in the following logic:

Genesis is an account of how life was created. Dinosaurs take up 99% of life's history on Earth.

Ther


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 3 years ago from London Author

[God can still be all loving and stop creating something.] Since he made us suffer because of this, he is not all loving.

[God knows beginning to end. If God sees the need to stop the existence of something there is probably good reason that we don't know about.] So you admit that believing in God makes no logical sense. Good.

[This is also why I made the comment that many atheists seem to have trouble seeing past this life is all there is. We don't know if certain species of extinct animal will exist in the next life or not.] It doesn't matter whether they do or not, the fact is they were forcefully removed in agonising pain in this existence - enter sadism.

[Granted, there is nothing that suggest there will be. Why should there be though. Thats of no concern really.] Exactly, God is a sadist in either scenario.

[“This is what the Lord says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?”] This to say "don't think for yourself, that will get yourself into trouble"

[It's a good question considering our knowledge compared to God is less than that of an infant to Einstein.] Do you not think it is pathetic to assume some being has infinite knowledge when there is no reason to believe he exists?

It is the same as me saying to you "go forth and give me all your stationary and toiletries" and when you question why I will tell you "I am far superior than your intelligence, do not question me for I am greater - just do it fool". You wouldn't believe me because your sense of rationality will kick in and stop you. Maybe if I wrote an entire book about it though..

[God does allow suffering. This also does not make him unloving or not all powerful. The problem with people, especially in this generation is we want instant gratification all the time. If we don't get what we want, we behave like 2 year olds. One reason God allows suffering is because he values character over comfort. A good example would be an Olympic athlete training daily.]

So God who created all of us in his image, made most of us today so that we would want instant gratification and fail to please him? Therefore, he punishes us?

Do I punish my toaster for popping out bread when I press the eject button?

[He/she puts their body to the limit and deals with the aches, pains , and discomforts of it to obtain a greater good. I understand people have much greater and horrific suffering in the world than this. But again, God sees beginning to end and we don't always to future affects suffering. I can say in my own life many of the struggles i have gone through has strengthened me in area's of my life. And if others are honest I'm sure they can say the same.]

Tell me, what is God's plan when he lets a child of two years old choke on a lego piece? What about when a child is born with leukemia?

I ask because I love making theists say "we don't know God's plan" as if that's some sort of actual answer to anything.

When humans suffer and then strengthen from it, we call it 'learning'.

[I wont really say much about the fact that there are people who dispute evolution since you only argument was that they are pathetic. I gave you 5 valid secular scientists] Actually you gave me 5 invalid scientists.

[and could give 100.] Please do.

[calling them pathetic because they don't agree isn't an argument.] Naming 5 scientists that believe in evolution isn't an argument - why would I respond with one?

As far as text books, I can't count how many times i have seen the phrase “we no know” in my science books growing up. I could probably look in my daughters school books and still find that phrase. Like “we used to think pluto was a planet. We now know...”.

Precisely, just like "we now know that evolution is a fact and that God's account of genesis is untrue."

["I asked would you accept the argument from me of 'not knowing how God did X doesn't mean he didn't, because you said “not knowing the historical facts of how X lead to Y does not change that fact.” I assumed you wouldn't accept such an answer.]

Same argument: just because I don't know how my grandmother created the universe doesn't mean I should believe she never did it.

[The horse thing you showed is full of failed growths] ???

[and there are no parts under construction.] ???

Sorry? You can clearly see how minute structural changes lead to the formation of the modern horse's foot and legs today. The changes are so slight that it would be unthinkable to deny that there is a link between those organisms...

[There are many more differences between each type of animal than their size and the number of toes. Every change in structure, function, and process would have had to develop through random process if evolution were true, but no transitional forms have been found.] Erm, this is awkward... You are different from your other family members not because you evolved from the same organism as them but because of natural variation in the human gene pool.

Likewise, the reason the horses you see have different "structure, function, and process" is because each species will have its own variation in its gene pool. The fossils from horse X may have come from a tiny horse of the species X whilst the next horse's fossils from a different type Y could have been from a much larger horse of that species.

[The picture is placed living and extinct species next to each other to make the horse series. A similar thing took place with the famous Lucy the missing link. They later realized it was just an extinct primate. Also your picture is outdated. I'll get right on telling the pope.] I don't understand what this meant either, could you clarify?

[Again with the pope. Don't care what the pope knows or doesn't know. I don't believe he is omniscient or divine.] And why not? There is more evidence for him to be so than God himself. Why does reason trump blind faith here? Would you believe in him blindly if your priest said so?

["I still don't see why the bible would mention dinosaurs when that isn't the purpose of its writing."]

So you weren't joking, this is a grave matter indeed.

Tell me where there is a fault in the following logic:

Genesis is an account of how life was created.

Dinosaurs take up 99% of life's history on Earth.

Therefore, even the most basic writer would mention dinosaurs in an account of how life was created.

[This along with many people not being able to read (the writing of the bible was obviously read to these people) made the writing put in to poetic fashion easier to memorize. When read in its original language you can see how things flow and at times rhyme which as you probably know does make things easier to remember. Much of what Jesus said to his disciples was actually said in a memorable fashion.]

So you think that God was so kind as to make the bible written in poetry for people to remember?

But at the same time he deliberately made it impossible to gauge what he meant in doing so?

So in essence he let people memorise things that didn't make any sense to them? What a kind god indeed!

I don't mean any offense to you as a person, but I would like you to understand that the theistic arguments you have given me are all based on fallacy.

Even if everything you said were true, and evolution doesn't have enough evidence, and the bible was written poetically, and that dinosaurs were simply not mentioned because God didn't think it would interest his audience.

Even if all of that were true (which none of it can be) it would move us no further into the idea that God is actually real and contributed anything at all to our creation.

The most you could say is "evolution has no evidence, God's creation has no evidence, therefore we should believe in neither."

Blindly obeying your parents/pastor/community/TV character so that you convince yourself you have 'blind faith' is not the answer to the debate.

Thanks again,

Philanthropy


christiananrkist 3 years ago

@philanthropy

God can still be all loving and stop creating something. God knows beginning to end. If God sees the need to stop the existence of something there is probably good reason that we don't know about. This is also why I made the comment that many atheists seem to have trouble seeing past this life is all there is. We don't know if certain species of extinct animal will exist in the next life or not. Granted, there is nothing that suggest there will be. Why should there be though. That's of no concern really. I hate to quote the bible to you since you don't believe it. But I think is says it best in

Isaiah 45:11. “This is what the Lord says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?”

it's a good question considering our knowledge compared to God is less than that of an infant to Einstein.

God does allow suffering. This also does not make him unloving or not all powerful. The problem with people, especially in this generation is we want instant gratification all the time. If we don't get what we want, we behave like 2 year olds. One reason God allows suffering is because he values character over comfort. A good example would be an Olympic athlete training daily. He/she puts their body to the limit and deals with the aches, pains , and discomforts of it to obtain a greater good. I understand people have much greater and horrific suffering in the world than this. But again, God sees beginning to end and we don't always to future affects suffering. I can say in my own life many of the struggles i have gone through has strengthened me in area's of my life. And if others are honest I'm sure they can say the same.

I wont really say much about the fact that there are people who dispute evolution since you only argument was that they are pathetic. I gave you 5 valid secular scientists and could give 100. calling them pathetic because they don't agree isn't an argument. As far as text books, I can't count how many times i have seen the phrase “we no know” in my science books growing up. I could probably look in my daughters school books and still find that phrase. Like “we used to think pluto was a planet. We now know...”.

I asked would you accept the argument from me of 'not knowing how God did X doesn't mean he didn't, because you said “not knowing the historical facts of how X lead to Y does not change that fact.” I assumed you wouldn't accept such an answer.

The horse thing you showed is full of failed growths, and there are no parts under construction. There are many more differences between each type of animal than their size and the number of toes. Every change in structure, function, and process would have had to develop through random process if evolution were true, but no transitional forms have been found. The picture is placed living and extinct species next to each other to make the horse series. A similar thing took place with the famous Lucy the missing link. They later realized it was just an extinct primate. Also your picture is outdated. I'll get right on telling the pope.

Again with the pope. Don't care what the pope knows or doesn't know. I don't believe he is omniscient or divine.

Why would you ask if i think im playing devils advocate with the argument i gave? I still don't see why the bible would mention dinosaurs when that isn't the purpose of its writing. Do you really expect the author of Genesis to talk about every living creature that ever inhabited the earth? Even extinct ones that his audience would have no clue as to what hes talking about?

The reason the bible includes poetry and mixes it with historical narratives is because of this passage for one thing.

Proverbs 7:1-3 My son, keep my words And treasure my commandments within you. Keep my commandments and live,And my teaching as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.

This along with many people not being able to read (the writing of the bible was obviously read to these people) made the writing put in to poetic fashion easier to memorize. When read in its original language you can see how things flow and at times rhyme which as you probably know does make things easier to remember. Much of what Jesus said to his disciples was actually said in a memorable fashion.


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 3 years ago from London Author

@WhyJoker,

There is no way I am going to waste my time reading that,

Thanks,

Philanthropy


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