True and False Teachings on "Falling from Grace"

The apostle Paul's Correct Definition of "Falling from Grace"

The apostle Paul gives us the true meaning of “Falling from Grace”.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4)

Falling from grace is the condition of the Gentile Christians when they go back to practice circumcision which is an “attempt to be justified by law” and to be entangled again with a yoke of bondage”. Whenever the New Testament mentions the law in connection with circumcision it is in reference to the law of Moses as shown here. “And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1) "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

During the Jerusalem Conference in which the issue of circumcision was debated the apostle Peter gave this reason why Gentile Christians should not be circumcised. “Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?(Acts 15:10)The apostle James made this conclusion: “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,”(Acts 15:19) The Jerusalem conference made a resolution that Gentiles should not be circumcised.

The apostles, elders and brethren wrote a letter to the Gentile churches.

“Greetings. Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--” (Acts. 15:24)

The law refers to the law of Moses. This is the reason why the apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians in the introduction of his epistle

:I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:6-9)

Going back to circumcision is turning away from the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the apostle Paul refers to as “a different gospel” and perverting the “gospel of Christ.” Those who preach this different and perverted gospel are accursed.


A Total Departure from the apostle Paul's Definition of "Falling from Grace"

In his book “Destined to Reign” Joseph Prince, who is the senior pastor of Singapore's New Creation Church that has 20,000 people attending their services, gives the meaning of falling from grace a new twist. Here is what he wrote.

"In the very first chapter of Galatians, Paul says, "I marvel..." or as you and I would say today, "I am appalled..." What appalled him? Paul continues: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

Paul was angry because the Galatians were turning away from the "grace of Christ" to "a different gospel," and because there were some people who wanted "pervert the gospel of Christ." Paul had preached the gospel of grace to the Galatians, but he found that there were Judaizers who introduced elements of the law to them, mixing God's grace with the law. Do not belittle this problem. It was a serious problem and it made Paul very angry. Since Paul was full of the Holy Spirit and his anger was Spirit-inspired, it would benefit us to really understand why the mixture of law and grace angered him.

In most places today, the problem is not pure law. You will not find pure law in Christian churches. What you will find in many places today is a mixture of law and grace. You will hear teachings that combine the old and new covenants. You will hear things like, "yes, you are saved by grace, but now that you are saved, you had better not take it for granted. You have to start living a holy life by keeping the Ten Commandments." This is called mixture -- you have a little bit of grace and a little bit of law. Many believers think that this--balancing law and grace--is all right. However, the Lord has shown me that what man calls balance, God calls mixture.

My friend, you cannot balance law and grace. Your justification is either entirely a work of His grace or it is by your own works. His grace will be nullified when you add even a little mixture of man's own efforts to be justified. This is serious. God hates mixture.

Falling From Grace

Paul told the Galatians, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." This is the true definition of "falling from grace." Today, when someone sins, ministers say that the person has "fallen from grace." But Paul never told the Corinthians that they had fallen from grace despite all their sins. To fall from grace then is to fall into the law. Notice that grace is the high ground. When you are under the law, you have fallen from your high ground of grace. In the ark of covenant, the mercy seat is positioned above the Ten Commandments. You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments." --- an excerpt from Destined to Reign – pages 267- 268


The Truth about the Mixture of Law and Grace

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.” (Gal. 1:6-9)

The most serious thing that the Galatians did was they had turned away from the Lord Jesus Christ who called them to the grace of Christ. To turn away from the Savior and preaching a different and perverted gospel will result in curses and condemnation.

What is the different and perverted gospel? Joseph Prince wrote that it is the mixture of law and grace. That is not the truth. The apostle Paul had written many references to the law and grace and showed that both can work together for the good of the Christians.

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”(Rom. 3:31) Paul did not write that we should do away with the law. He wrote; “we establish the law.” “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”(Rom. 6:14-15) “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (Rom. 7:7) “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”(Rom. 7:12)

If you agree with what the apostle Paul had written about the importance of the law that “we establish the law.” and the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.” he could not have objected to preaching law and grace together. Christians can surely believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and also keep the Ten Commandments (Mt. 19:16-19).


The Different and Perverted Gospel is Going Back to Circumcision

The different and perverted gospel that the apostle Paul wrote is definitely not mixing grace with keeping the Ten Commandments. It is clearly keeping the Law of Moses and going back to circumcision. How do we know this is correct? All we have to do is read through the whole epistle of Galatians and find out what Paul was writing about. Can we find any verses that mention the Ten Commandments? I cannot find even one. But there are many verses in the epistle of Galatians that mention circumcision in connection with the law and the false gospel.

1. Galatians 2:3-5 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),”

2. Galatians 5:1-8 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.”

3. Galatians 5:11-12 “And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!”

4. Galatians 6:12-15 “As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.”

There are ten (10) words that describe circumcision in the Epistle to the Galatians, and not even one single word that describes the Ten Commandments. If this is a contest to determine which is the real cause for falling from grace, we have a score of 10 points for circumcision as the main cause, and 0 points for the Ten Commandments.


Keeping the Ten Commandments is NOT Falling from Grace?

Joseph Prince wrote: You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments. Joseph Prince has made a very serious doctrinal error. Keeping the Ten Commandments cannot in any way be falling from grace. Let us go through the Ten Commandments and see whether or not Joseph Prince is in error by writing that it is falling from grace.

1. “You shall have no other gods before the One True God” How can you worship the One True God and not other gods be falling from grace? Joseph Prince is wrong.

2. “You shall not make any image and bow down to them and serve them.” How can anyone fall from grace by not bowing before images? Joseph Prince is wrong again.

3. “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.” Does Joseph Prince want to hear people swear falsely and abuse God's name? Joseph Prince is wrong again.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” Christians cannot fall from grace by worshiping God on the day He instituted, and that Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath?

5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you will have long life.” Does Joseph Prince want people to dishonor their parents and have short lives? Rediculous!

6. “You shall not murder.” Every civilized country in the world has this law. Joseph Prince is wrong in writing that keeping this commandment is falling from grace.

7. “You shall not commit adultery.” Joseph Prince's false teaching of not keeping this commandment will result in adulterous and immoral societies everywhere.

8. “You shall not steal.” It is hard to find a civilized coutry that does not have this law. It is difficult to understand how keeping this commandment is falling from grace.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” This commandment is against lying with bad intention to harm others. Joseph Prince is wrong again.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house, wife, servants and anything that belongs to him.”How can a Christian keeping this commandment be falling from grace?

Joseph Prince's teaching of You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments” is against the truths as taught by the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles in the Early Church. It is a very dangerous teaching that misleads Christians.


The Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught Christians to keep the Ten Commandments.


  1. The Lord Jesus Christ preached that keeping the Ten Commandments will have eternal life (Mt. 19:16-19; 5:19).

  2. The apostle Paul preached keeping the Ten Commandments (Rom. 13:8-10; 1 Cor. 7:19).

  3. The apostle John had written profusely on keeping the Commandments of God (1 Jn. 2:3,4; 3:22, 24; 1 Jn. 5:2,3; 2 Jn. 1:6; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14).

  4. The apostle James wrote that we must keep every one of the Ten Commandmens (Jas. 2:8-13)

If keeping the Ten Commandments is falling from grace then it is also a different and perverted gospel that would bring curses on the preacher (Gal. 1:6-9). If what Joseph Prince wrote is true then the Lord Jesus Christ and all the apostles have been causing the Galatian Christians to fall from grace and they are all accursed. That is great big lie that originates from Satan!

Using Joseph Prince's own words I am appalled that he would write:You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments.” All Christians need to be warned about accepting his false teachings. It will affect their salvation and going to heaven.


Warning for Christians in the End Time

The Bible has this prophecy for the End Time. "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:17)

The dragon is the Devil and Satan (Rev. 12:9). The woman symbolizes the church (Eph. 5:30-32). The woman's offspring are the church members "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Only those Christians who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus will go to heaven.

“Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."' "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them." (Rev. 14:12-13)

“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.” (Rev. 22:14-15)

Those who preach false doctrines that mislead people are liars. Not only they will go to hell but also those whom they have deceived.. Praise and thank God, Christians who have the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ and keep God's Commandments will go to Heaven. HalleluYah !

More by this Author


Comments 60 comments

julian.bettridge@gmail.com 4 years ago

I'm requesting copyright permission to use this shown article, to print 10X copies, of I would not make any alterations to the article & all requested copyright notice would be included as directed by you.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Julian,

You may print as many copies of this hub and send them to as many people as you can. May God bless you.

Arkwriter


Chapsey25@yahoo.com 4 years ago

Matthew 5:17..."Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

God sent Jesus to fulfill the law because He knew we never could. The law was given to show our need for a savior. If we miss the law in one point we are guilty of it all. Grace has set us free from a certainty of failure. Following law is a works mentality that completely destroys the definition of Grace. Works are an outward expression of our faith in Jesus. Understanding Grace enables a life of holiness, and being righteous-concious(not sin-concious)reminds us whose we are, and that the blood of Jesus covered all sin, for all mankind, for ever.Grace will give you the power to live holy, your works will never come close. If you are truly born-again, grace will give the desire to live holy, and you will find you can live more holy by accident than you ever could on purpose. Joseph Prince has full revelation on this, and I thank God for his teaching and the thousands of diciples he is creating.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Chapsey,

Matthew 5:17..."Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

The Lord Jesus Christ said it very clearly that He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill them. The word "fulfill" means to achieve, to carry out, to complete and to bring it to reality. That is what the Lord Jesus Christ did to the law. The Bible is very precise about how the Lord Jesus Christ would fulfill the law. "The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will exalt the law and make it honorable." (Isa. 42:21)

God had already dealt with this issue about the law and faith. "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." (Rom. 3:31)

Prince has taught you to twist the Lord's words and give the opposite meaning. God has severely warned us about this. "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." (2 Pet. 3:16)

I pray and hope that you will get out of Prince's false and deceitful teaching. May God guide you.

Arkwriter


jerome 4 years ago

thanks bru , your writing is correct , as many that follow this loose teaching of grace , make it a license to sin.Secondly I do not see any of these grace followers reaching out to unsaved , for in there mind all are probably saved already.There is no pushing or thrust to witness rather to see how free they can become.People do not realize GRACE does not free them , it only brings access to the Father , it is truth that free's us.

Blessings


Glenn 4 years ago

The problem that is pointed out is that Joseph Prince does not teach against the law! He teaches that the Law does not dispense the grace of Christ! That grace and unmerited favor is for yesterday, today, and forever. He does not condone acts of sin or unrighteousness but recognizes the Holy Spirit working in the believer as the one and only power by which we can walk in Christ. That is God in us. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. The recognition of the law of the Spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness and it led to healing (note... that meant also that they must have been bitten by the serpants) so as we fix our hope and believe in the work of Christ on the cross, a finished work, we are healed. The law is a tudor to bring us to the understanding that we cannot make it on our own. Falling from grace is stepping into a legalism that says that sin produces death. And it does... for those who do not place their hope in Christ. Those who place their hope in Christ will recognize the blood of Jesus Christ over and over... because we cannot help but fall short. If He has not and does not continue to forgive us for missing the mark, our love will be small. Justifying ourselves and making excuses for ourselves, and trying to win spiritual battles through man made means is doomed for failure... and place the emphasis of our daily lives on ourselves.

Jesus Christ has said that His mission was to give us life... and that more abundantly. Most Christians that I have known through the years barely know or realize who Christ is. They don't even know how to find chapter and verse in the scriptures. Yet they criticize someone like Prince because he preaches the abundant life that Christ offers. If he is for us... he is not against us.


Glenn 4 years ago

P.S. The teachings of Prince do not nullify sin in anyway. They teach how to deal with sin and move on in Christ. Most Christians are bound up by condemnation because of what the general church is teaching... which is... legalism. Christ did fulfill the law... not so that we would have to go back and be judged by it! But so that we might go on in a new covenant. Anyone who truly understands what falling short of the mark is would realize that we do it by habit and because of that we walk around wondering where God is and not realizing the impact of the work of Jesus in our daily lives. The teachings of most supposed Christian scholars don't even make a dent in helping the average persons life. Why? Because most people don't have the time to become scholars! But Jesus has recognized and understood that by giving of His Spirit to us so that we can commune with Him in our daily walk. That's called being set free from sin and being linked to God. The more we partake of His daily bread... the more we will long for it.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

When you read what Prince wrote in his book you cannot but conclude that he is an antinomian - one who is against the law. He is clearly against keeping the Ten Commandments. This is what Prince wrote:

"In most places today, the problem is not pure law. You will not find pure law in Christian churches. What you will find in many places today is a mixture of law and grace. You will hear teachings that combine the old and new covenants. You will hear things like, "yes, you are saved by grace, but now that you are saved, you had better not take it for granted. You have to start living a holy life by keeping the Ten Commandments." This is called mixture -- you have a little bit of grace and a little bit of law. Many believers think that this--balancing law and grace--is all right. However, the Lord has shown me that what man calls balance, God calls mixture.

In the ark of covenant, the mercy seat is positioned above the Ten Commandments. You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments." --- an excerpt from Destined to Reign – pages 267- 268

If you go back and read my hub you will see that Prince made a big error into getting mixed up between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses as contained in ordinances that include circumcision.

Please read my articles on Law and Grace and also on Holiness and Sanctification.

Law amd Grace – Law-1

https://sites.google.com/site/lawgraceark/home/law...

Law and Grace – Grace-2

https://sites.google.com/site/lawgraceark/grace-2

Holiness and Sanctifiction

http://holiness-sanctification.bravesites.com/


MsMin33 4 years ago

The Bible states "Let brotherly love continue." (Heb.13:1) Has anyone thought about contacting Pastor Prince and informing him of this? Sometimes an individual may (not) have a clear "spirirtual" view of a certain portion of God's Word. We are all "helpers one to another". If you don't mind, I would like to send him a copy of your "Falling from Grace", in order to highlight some areas that are not, should I say, "agreeable". God bless! Oh, I TRULY thought this was MASTERful. Nothing but Word.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear MsMin33

This Hub is published on the Internet which anyone can read and refer to anyone in the world. Nobody knows everything. "For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (1 Cor. 13:9-10)

I have watched Prince when he was interviewed on TBN. He does a lot of double talk and is not straightforward. He said he is not against the Ten Commandments, but he still believes in what he wrote in his book. If he is sincere in believing in the Ten Commandments then he should renounce what he wrote and recall all his books "Destined to Reign" that has misled thousands of readers. That is true repentance and restitution. Make no mistake God is not mocked. Please go to my website on "The Commandments of God" - http://commandmentsofgod.yolasite.com/ May God bless you.

You may write to me - arkwriterpw@gmail.com

Arkwriter


Non-Pentecostal. 4 years ago

@ arkwriter.

IMO,....... We need to know about the history of the early Church in order to understand better the controversy about Law vs Grace.

The first Christians were Jewish Christians, like Peter n Paul, who still obeyed Moses Law. God's ideal believer is a Jew who obeyed Moses Law n then believed in Jesus Christ for his salvation, ie born-again by water(the Law) n the Spirit(Grace).(JOHN.3:5)

.... When a Jew became a Christian, the indwelling Holy Spirit was able to easily inscribe the laws/Word of God into his mind n heart.(HEB.8:10 & 10:16) The HS caused the Word or JC to also live in him.(JOHN.15:7, GAL.2:20) The indwelling Spirit, thru the Word, empowered him to walk according to the Spirit n not according to his evil flesh/Adamic heart. He was able to bear the fruits of the Spirit n not the fruits/works of the flesh.(GAL.5:16-23, JOHN.15:1-5) This ability to obey God's laws or Moses Law was not by his own strength, willpower or wisdom.

.... The indwelling HS caused him to love God n love his neighbours/friends as himself.(DEU.6:5 & LEV.19:18; MATT.22:37-40 & 5:43) Previously, as a Jew, he obeyed Moses Law bc he feared God, His curses, the Jewish religious authorities n desired for His blessings n to go to heaven.(DEU.4:10, PROV.1:7, DEU.28:1-2 & 15) As a Jew, he did not really love God or his neighbours in his heart.

At MATT.7:15-23, JC taught His sheep to know false-prophets/pastors by their fruits/works of the flesh, ie they practice lawlessness or law-breakings.

B4 Christ, for many centuries, the Jews believed that they were going to heaven by obeying Moses Law. This was partially true. OT figures like Lazarus, Abraham, Moses n Elijah r in heaven.(LUKE.16:19-31, MATT.17:3) The rich man is in Hades bc he ignorantly n unrepentantly broke Moses Law at DEU.15:1-11. The OT figures got to heaven bc the resurrected JC released them from Hades n preached the gospel to them.(1PET.3:19, MATT.27:52)

.... After Christ, the Jews could no longer go to heaven by just obeying Moses Law. They had to also believe in JC b4 they could go to heaven.(=Law AND Grace)

.... The ideal situation was for the Jews to become Christians = Jewish Christians....... to be continued...


Non-Pentecostal. 4 years ago

@ arkwriter.

....continuing.......

But most of the Jews rejected Jesus of Nazareth as their Christ or Messiah. Why.?

.... Their sins resulted in God's curse, which dispossessed them of their kingdom of Israel. They repented n God promised them a Messiah/Christ who would save them.(ISA.9:6)

.... The Jews desired for a kingly Chist who would defeat the Roman occupiers n give them back their earthly kingdom of Israel.(JOHN.6:15) But JC was a pacifist n wanted to give them a futuristic kingdom of heaven.(MATT.4:17)

.... When most of the Jews rejected JC n His salvation of Grace(free gift), God invited the Gentiles into His kingdom thru His apostle, Paul.

In many of his epistles, first, Paul had to convince his fellow Jews that they could no longer be justified for heaven by obeying Moses Law, ie they could only be justified by faith in JC. Then he had to also argue against the Judaizers who seek to impose Moses Law upon the formerly lawless new Gentile Christians.

For a Jewish Christian, he should be aware that it is not the obeying of the Ten Commandments that qualifies him for heaven. It is his belief in the sacrifice of JC that atoned for his evil flesh/heart that qualifies him for heaven. His evil flesh/heart was inherited from Adam's original sin.(ROM.5:12, LEV.17:11, JOHN.6:54) JC is the Lamb of God that was sacrificed for him.(JOHN.1:29) At MATT.5:17-48, JC told the Jews that it was their evil flesh/hearts which lusted, hated, got angry, jealous, greedy, etc that was sending them to hell. Their obeying of Moses Law, ie avoid doing evil deeds/sins(murder, adultery, etc) n doing good deeds(love their neighbours n hate their enemies) was not enough to save them.

Faith in JC will result in him being empowered by the HS to love to obey the Ten Commandments. He should no longer obey His laws by fearing God n His curses/punishments. (1JOHN.4:17, ROM.7:6)

.... The Jews who obey Moses Law thru fear n desire hv their own rewards, ie getting earthly blessings from God. But they miss the mark of going to heaven after they die n leave this earth. In fact, atheists who r law-abiding also get this earthly reward, ie long n happy lives.

In the gospel of salvation, the egg comes first, b4 the chicken. The egg of Grace comes b4 the chicken of the Law. The egg of Grace hatches into a living chicken that supernaturally obeys the laws of God. Grace will result in loving to obey God's laws. The fear of God's laws serve to tutor/teach people to come to Christ to be justified by faith.(GAL.3:24)

For a new Gentile Christian, he should be aware that he has been born-again of the Spirit, but not yet fully of water. There is the risk of him losing his salvation, esp thru sin.(MATT.13:18-23 - parable of the sower; MATT.7:24 - a house not built on rocks) Since, he had formerly led a lawless life, the indwelling HS could not fully inscribe the laws/Word of God into his mind n heart bc he is not well-versed with Moses Law.

.... At ACTS.15:1-29 & GAL.2:9-14, Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles,(ACTS.9:15) contended strongly against the Judaizers. With the backing of Peter, he was able to get nearly full exemption from Moses Law for new GC, so as not to burden them. If Moses Law becomes too burdensome, there was no necessity to impose it on him bc the obeying of Moses Law does not save him from going to hell, esp the law of circumcision. Otherwise, many potential Gentile converts would hv rejected the gospel bc they feel burdened by the requirement to obey Moses Law on conversion.

So, a new GC should begin his spiritual life by allowing the indwelling HS to empower him to obey the 4 simple laws of Moses at ACTS.15:29. Thereafter, he should feed on the laws/Word of God, in order for the HS to fully inscribe them into his mind n heart, thus empowering him to fully obey the laws of God, thru love.(1COR.3:1-3 & 6:9-11) In this dispensation from Moses Law, God gave the new GC reasonable time to catch up with the already-sanctified Jewish Christians, like Paul. They should study ALL Scripture, ie the Old n New Testaments.(2TIM.3:16-17, HEB.4:12) He should not use his liberty from Moses Law to waste his time on vain pursuits or ignorantly break Moses Law or the Ten Commandments.

Eg the law of circumcision required the Jews to be circumcised as babies. Circumcision was a reminder to the Jews about the Abrahamic covenant, ie they were separated as God's chosen people. Circumcision resulted in hygience n less lustiness bc the forehead of the penis is desensitized. That is why, uncircumcised China n India hv such large population.

.... If a new GC adult was required to obey this law of Moses, he will be incapacitated for more than 1 month n he will be in a hell of an agony when he accidentally or involuntarily has an erection, eg he got a sexy wife.(GEN.34:25) So, a new GC adult does not need to be circumcised bc it is too burdensome. Instead, he should circumcise his heart by allowing the HS to empower him to overcome his strong evil lust, thru the Word of God, eg EXO.20:14 n LEV.18.(ROM.2:29, MATT.4:4) In this way, he obey this law of God in the newness of the Spirit n not in the oldness of the letter.(ROM.7:6)

.... Since the law of circumcision is good(ROM.7:12), babies of GC should be circumcised if it is not burdensome.

New GC should not neglect the laws in the Old Testament, eg the Ten Commandments, n live only on Grace. Those who live only on Grace carry a high risk of committing sins. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

.... Some of them wrongly believe that ignorantly, intentionally n unrepentantly sinning will not affect their salvation, ie once saved, always saved; in practical terms, they think Grace gave them a license to sin = 007/James Bond-age. Hence, broad is the way that leads to destruction.(MATT.7:13)

.... They should heed the warning of God to not ignorantly n unrepentantly commit sins at HEB.10:26-31, 1JOHN.3:8 n REV.22:14-15. God will lovingly n patiently discipline n chastise His people(HEB.12:11) but His tolerance for sins/evil deeds has a limit.

Peace.

P S - For the sake of brevity, no she-female was mentioned. My apology to all loving female Christians.


Jojo 4 years ago

I have read Joseph Prince books and also watched several of his sermons. what made me believed in pure grace was the fact that no one was made rigtheous by the law. The bible said "..no one is rigtheous not even one.. ." the reason Jesus came, was to die for the sins of the world and give life to those who would believe in HIM. Jesus also fulfilled the law, the only one who perfected it but died as a sinner so that through Him we the true sinners will be made rigtheous. Joseph Prince also said that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the law-ten commandments) was GOD's creation and GOD called all His creation good. Now though the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was good, it is not created for MAN for only GOD can handle the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the law-ten commandments. GOD forbid Adam to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because the moment Adam eat of it, he will surely die. Jesus said," I did not come to abolished the law but to fulfill it." And HE surely did just that and gives LIFE to those who believe in HIM and totally made rigtheous by HIS grace. Let us focus on Jesus and HIM alone. Let us also be careful of the foolishness of the preaching and verify everything we hear to the word of GOD the Bible. GOD's unmerited favor be upon us all.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Jojo,

A rich young ruler asked the Lord Jesus Christ what he should do to have eternal life, and the Lord's answer is "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mt.19:16-19) The Lord said, ""If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jn. 14:15) "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (Jn. 15:10).

Jojo, we cannot say that I only believe in Jesus and I do not need to keep His commandments. Read what He said about not every Christian who calls Him Lord will go to heaven. Those who do not do the will of the Father will not be saved eventually. The Lord will tell them: "I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Mt. 7:21-23 NKJV)

The apostle John prophesied that in the End Time Satan will make war with Christians who have the testimony of Jesus Christ and also keep the commandments of God (Rev. 12:17). John wrote again that those saints "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" will have rest in heaven (Rev. 14:12-13)

You mentioned Joseph Prince also said that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the law-ten commandments) was GOD's creation and GOD called all His creation good. and because Adam ate it and he died. This is Satan's lies. Adam and Eve died because they disobeyed God, not because of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Prince is a liar when he implied that if we keep the Ten Commandments we will die like Adam and Eve after they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you believe what Prince wrote you are being deceived by him who is an agent sent by Satan in the End Time.

Jojo, read the Bible which is the Word of God, and burn Joseph Prince's books that deceive people and lead them to hell and damnation.


Jim 4 years ago

Shame on you for your last statement. It reveals your heart and true intention. Enough said


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jim,

Shame on you for your last statement. It reveals your heart and true intention. Enough said. Read the Bible which is the Word of God, and burn Joseph Prince's books that deceive people and lead them to hell and damnation.


Jim 4 years ago

Be spacific please. What of his books deceive people to the point it would lead them to hell. From my understanding believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is the requirment for eternal redemtion. Have NEVER read anything that would even remotely detour anyone from that.

I guess 2Cor 3:6-9

6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the NEW COVENANT, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that of the children of Israel cold not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was PASSING AWAY.

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

9 For if the ministry of CONDEMNATION HAD GLORY, the minisrty of rightousness(New Covenant) EXCEEDS much more in glory.

I believe that the only law written and engraved on stones was the 10 commandments.

Keeping the Law did not save a soul....Keeping the Law keeps us in sin, with a sin consciousness. Heb:10v1-2

Having rad this scriputes you can see where Joseph Price is coming from. For you to advise people to burn his material leaves me staggered.

Even if do not believe what he preaches you can see that he may have a point. But no you would rather distain your brothers character.

Thank God for 1john 4:17 that even Joseph Price can stand in convidence on the day of judgement. According to the Word and not you.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jim,

If you had read the entire content of my hub "True and False Teachings on Falling from Grace" you would know which book that Joseph Prince wrote is misleading people. In "Destined to Reign" – pages 267- 268 Prince wrote: "You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments." This is misleading people into NOT keeping the Ten Commandments.

Jim, you quoted 2 Corinthians 3:7 - "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that of the children of Israel cold not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was PASSING AWAY."

First of all, you are correct that the ministry of death refers to the Ten Commandments which were "written and engraved on stones". The Ten Commandments are indeed the ministry of death. If you break them you are in danger of spiritual death and going to hell. Just look at the First Commandment that the One True God states: "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Ex. 20:3) If you break this commandment you will go to hell. It is a ministry of death, no doubt about it.

Jim, you are absolutely wrong in your interpretation that the Ten Commandments are PASSING AWAY. Please carefully read the verse 7 again. It is the glory of Moses’ countenance that is PASSING AWAY. Moses’ face was shining (having the glory) when he was holding the two tablets of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 34:29-30). A lot of ministers erroneously and falsely interpret the apostle Paul’s writings to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16)

It is true that keeping the Ten Commandments alone will not save anyone. It is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves us. After we are saved we still have to keep God’s commandments to go to heaven (Rev. 22:14-15 NKJV).


jim 4 years ago

Yes I did make an error copying from my bible with regards Moses countenance passing away I apologies.

I guess none of us will go to heaven then. We all know break one Law you have broken them all according to James.

And I guess Christ death on the cross was not enough to save us,.,, we must keep the ministry of condemnation as well...how wrong I have been all these years. Thank you for putting me right.

Oh by the way name one other than Jesus who has kept His commandments? You maybe, as you seem to judge and jury other others and their ministries. Makes you wonder why Christ had to go to the cross in the first place doesn't it. After all, all we had to do was keep the Law. I put to you, its the very fact that we could not keep the Law that He came in the first place. I guess it was not quite finished was it.

End of the conversation for me my friend..

P.S. again sorry I thought I read you said Burn his books not his book...that is what I was referring to. If it was one statement in one book then you make my point....I am staggered you would make that statement 'burn his books' you must have read all of them sir

Jim


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 4 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jim,

Your assumption of James' statement that if you break one commandment is like breaking all commandments will result in “none of us will go to heaven” is incorrect. (Jas. 2:8-12) Please read :

“God puts His laws in our Minds and writes them in our Hearts”

http://www.arkpw.net/index.php?option=com_content&...

“The Perfect Law of Liberty”

http://www.arkpw.net/index.php?option=com_content&...

Jim, you asked me to name one other than Jesus who has kept His commandments. The Bible states that in the End Time Satan will make war with the Remnant Saints “who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Rev. 12:17). The Bible also informs us that those who are resting in heaven are the saints “who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12-13). If you want to be included in this group of saints in heaven you must not only believe in Jesus but also keep the Commandments of God. There will be no exception.

“These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Rev. 14:4-5)

Jim, if you want to go to heaven follow Jesus, do not follow Joseph Prince.

You wondered why Christ had to go to the Cross. Then you asked me this question. “After all, all we had to do was keep the Law.” Joseph Prince taught you the lie that because Jesus died on the Cross all the Ten Commandments are abolished. That is Satan's big lie.

Jesus said it very clearly: “"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mt. 5:17-19) Heaven and earth have not passed yet, so the Ten Commandments are still binding on all Christians.

Jim, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He said, and do not believe in the lies of what Joseph Prince wrote in his books. Burn them!

Follow Jesus only.


Jim 4 years ago

How dare you assume I am following Joseph Price and not Jesus Christ.

I have taken on board the positive things you have said and will meditate on them for that I give you respect. But to insult me with that comment of following Joseph Prince and not the Lord is an insult. I will no longer converse with you as your assumption has no edification to it all. Heb 3v13


Sam 4 years ago

What is God commandments?

1 John 3:23

What is believe on His name?

John 3:16

Law (Ten Commandment) is right and perfect, but no man can keep it except God, when Jesus die on the cross, He took all our sins (past, present, future which is our action of breaking Ten Commandments) on Him, that's why He says that He come to fulfill Ten Commandments, so there in no more problem about Ten Commandments between we and God because Jesus already pay for it on the cross.

Any Question?


Arkwriter 4 years ago

Dear Sam,

The Lord Jesus Christ said "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" He was referring to the Ten Commandments (Mt. 19:17-19). Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is one of God's commandments.

Your wrote: "Law (Ten Commandment) is right and perfect, but no man can keep it except God,"

Correction: The Ten Commandments is not for God to keep. They are for man to keep. There is not a single one of the Ten Commandments that man cannot keep. "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not budensome." (1 Jn. 5:3)

You wrote: “when Jesus die on the cross, He took all our sins (past, present, future which is our action of breaking Ten Commandments) on Him,”

Correction: This is a false doctrine taught by Joseph Prince. Here is the truth from the Bible. Jesus Christ, “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.” (1 Pet. 2:24). How do we die to sins? It is through baptism into the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:1-8) After we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ we still have to repent of our past sins and be baptized in His name for the remission of sins (Acts 10:43)On the Day of Pentecost, ”Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

After we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ we are still capable of committing sins because we are in the flesh.(Rom. 7:15-20). The apostle John, wrote to believers (1 Jn. 1:1-7). “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” (1 Jn. 1:8-10).

You wrote: “that's why He says that He come to fulfill Ten Commandments, so there in no more problem about Ten Commandments between we and God because Jesus already pay for it on the cross.

Correction: This is Satan’s lie and deception. The Lord Jesus Christ’s death on the Cross does not give us licence to break any one of the Ten Commandments. Read this: ”For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?” (Heb . 10:26-29)

NOTE: The false teachings of Joseph Prince lead many people to damnation.


Niettendow 4 years ago

Dear brother,

The Joseph prince part you where talking about is not correct.

The circumsion in Galatians is an example that Paul made of keeping the law.

Reed for yourself:

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Now the Joseph prince part.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The thing that Paul is saying by the Holy Spirit is that the law is a whole, you cannot separate it from each other ( a debtor to do the whole law)

Now in Galatians 3 You have this:

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Works of the law it is keeping the 10 commandments and the “ceremonial law” because the law is a whole.

You cannot keep the 10 commandments rebuke the rest because it is a whole

That is why Jesus rebukes the pharasees . (math 23)

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Now the curse of the law is a curse not because there is something wrong with the law, no the law is holy and just.

The problem is sin. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

That’s why the law is a tutor that leeds us to Christ.

We need the only begotten Son Jesus Christ the Lord of salvation, he is our Righteousness.

It is a gift (romans 5)

We are saved by grace trough faith not of our selves it’s a gift from God.

So it is not about circumcision its jut an example, almost the entire book of Galatians is about law and grace.

Like Jesus said you can’t put new wine in old wine skin because you will lose both.

Now to end this with Galatians 4:21 + 5:1 proves its about the law 10 commandments.

And about mixture then you can see why Joseph prince is right and not a lair.

Send away the bondwoman!!!. Vers 30!

Two Covenants

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Romans 7 vers 4.

Ps the words that the Holy spirit has spoken trough joseph prince changed my life

It set me free from addiction bad habbits wrong doings by believing that I am the rightioussness of God in Christ. As He is so am I in this world.

I have done nothing to chance my self I don’t keep the 10 commandments I don’t burn any sheep bull or doves in my garden.

I am simply changing by looking to the finished works of Jesus Christ.

En indeed when I try to keep the law and look at my self and try change myself by keeping the law I am falling from grace.

like romans 7.

Keep on struggeling until you discover that you can't but God can.

don't be religious and think that every “charismatic” is a crazy money asking, torronto shaking mockery. Joseph Prince is guilty of one thing and that is lifting Jesus up the best that he can.

Be blessed brother.

Gr G-J W the Netherlands.


jerry kelso 3 years ago

About Joseph Prince and his stance on the 10 commandments.

1. He is correct, but, misunderstood.

The moral laws are in each age.

A). When Cain killed Abel there was no written law called the 10 commandments.

This doesn't mean murder wasn't wrong or not sin, but, there was no written punishment. Cain knew he had done wrong because of his conscience and God gave him a mark of protection from people who would try to kill him.

The law of conscience was contained in the written law later but, with a specific judgement.

B). The 10 commandments God gave Moses to give to his people, only, the jews, had a specific judgement. Stoning for some things and an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth for others and others had lighter sentences.

In Jesus day, they were under the Mosaic law for Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses which we were never under as Gentiles. Jesus day was a transition period so it is very difficult to understand for most to understand. That is for another subject and another time.

The bottom line is that after the cross we are under the dispensation of Grace which Paul was given, and now we are not under the 10 commandment of the Mosaic law because it is now under the guise of the law of love. For this we have no specific blessing or cursing according to the Mosaic Ethic. The mechanics of the covenant have changed. The moral laws are intact throughout each age set in different contexts.

Yes, the truth of the moral law that needs to be adhered in each age, but according to different contexts. Sin is sin and right is right and wrong is wrong.

Romans 7 brings it out plainly by showing that the Mosaic law was holy and good but, it had a weakness to be able to be performed. The commandment alone cannot help you perform, it can only say Thou shalt not. It gives the truth of what is right and wrong but, only the risen Lord can help you overcome and perform the commandment. Even self effort can help you achieve the commandment but, not as much or as easy as the risen Lord. The covenants don't make you super christians necessarily, but we have great. We need to be more God Conscience than sin conscience. If a person wants to know how much a person, even a christian, can sin without God because he is human, read the old covenant and Solomon's teaching on how vain man is without God. The 10 commandments according to Timothy is for the disobedient because they have to be subdued. Christians in the context of Grace.

Summing up Romans 7 is that the Mosaic Law was Holy and Good but, since it could not help you to achieve the commandment and most of the time self effort came into the picture, the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law, Holy and Good and made those jews live to the frailty of man and sin; I do the things I don't know want to do, etc. For those who want to distinguish the Law of God in those passages as being separate, the truth is that the Law of God was the Mosaic law and could be delighted in.

Can we get back into the frailty of man and sin? Sure, But in the context of grace we don't because we don't have condemnation in Christ Jesus and the Law of the Spirit has done away with the law of Sin and Death which was in Romans 7 taking advantage of the Mosaic Law which, Gentiles were never under to begin with and made them live to the frailty of man and sin more than overcoming sin.

Joseph Prince understands that the commandment is written on our hearts and if we have a mentality of the 10 according to the mosaic ethic we will again reap condemnation and live to the frailty of man and thus, sin. The Bible says if we live in the Spirit we won't fulfill the things of the flesh. The mechanics of the covenant have changed and we must understand the moral laws in these contexts so we understand the truth.

Paul said, that the Mosaic law, the 10 commandments, had glory, but, now the new covenant has greater glory and when Christ fulfilled the law which, was for that time, it was done away with at the cross. I will stop here, but, I can promise you, when you understand the totality of the true grace message according to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ you will live in liberty of Christ in Romans 8 and not the struggle of the flesh as in Romans 7. God Bless


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Jerry,

You wrote that Joseph Prince is correct but misunderstood. Joseph Prince is incorrect and only his followers have misunderstood the truth about the Ten Commandments. Joseph Prince wrote: "You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments." Joseph Prince has made a very serious doctrinal error. Keeping the Ten Commandments cannot in any way be falling from grace.

Jerry, you have also made another mistake when you wrote in the last paragraph: "Paul said, that the Mosaic law, the 10 commandments, had glory, but, now the new covenant has greater glory and when Christ fulfilled the law which, was for that time, it was done away with at the cross." The Ten Commandments were never abolished at the Cross, it is still applicable to Christians. In the Old Covenant the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone. In the New Covenant the same Ten Commandments are now written in the minds and hearts of Christians. Read this: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Heb. 8:10)

May the LORD lead you to the understanding of the truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, You are still misunderstanding. It is not the commandment itself as far as being wrong, it is whether or not you will attain to it. The law of Moses was Holy and Good but, because of the weakness of the commandment and that it could not save you it had to be done away with. The risen Lord is the only one who could save and bring a greater covenant with better promises.

All the moral laws are intact in every age but, under different context. I have already stated these. The christian world has already proven what mixing law and grace causes, it causes the struggle of condemnation, and legalism and leaning to self effort and thus causing the stuggle which results in sinninning because of sin concious and we are only human mindset to the extreme. There are plenty of good law keepers in the church who are going to heaven. But if they keep the law to the extreme they can be carnal and eventually lose their salvation.

I have already given Romans 7 and 8 and you have not refuted that context.I also gave 1 Corinthians 3:1-16 and you have not refuted that either. Jesus fulfilling the law happened because he was a jew and had to fulfill his role as Messiah. Paul said the gospel was the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Jesus said the same thing but, he didn't preach this to the jews as such, which is another posts for another day and that is also misunderstood.

Hebrews 8:10 is talking about Israel that will happen at the second coming. The law is forever with the jews but, not under the Mosaic ethic but, the New Covenant standards.

There is now where that says new covenant believers are under the 10 commandments if the contexts are understood correctly.

The 10 commandments being moral laws are always intact and to be obeyed but they are attained to differently. We give but we don't tithe as the mosaic law ethic otherwise we give out of nececessity because of a rule of commandment. That doesn't belittle everything a jew had to make sure he was doing everything right to being able to achieve the commandment and favor from God. They had to do something to attain to it, but, now we attain to it through his power of the dbr and our love for God in the context of grace. Even, the Messianic Jews will tell you they don't abide by the 10 commandments of the Mosaic ethic because it is written on their hearts. Joseph Prince wouldn't argue with that point. After all, under the age of Conscience they had no written law but, it was still a law unto themselves that would later be contained in the written law. You have to admit when you say 10 commandments people revert back to the law mentality and the struggle. God bless Jerry kelso


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

You wrote: "The 10 commandments being moral laws are always intact and to be obeyed but they are attained to differently." I'm glad that you understood the Ten Commandments remained the same, but their observance in the New Covenant is different from that of the Old Covenant. The Ten Commandments are not that difficult to observe. The apostle John wrote: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." (1 Jn. 5:2-3). The Christian's motivation for keeping the Ten Commandments is because of the love of God, not out of fear or any other negative emotion. We keep the Ten Commandments because we love God.

The Ten Commandments were written on two tablets by God Himself (Exod. 31:18). The first tablet consists of four commandments that concerns man's love for God. The second tablet consists of six commandments that concerns man's love for his fellow human being.

The Lord Jesus Christ said: " Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mk. 12:29-31)

The apostle Paul summarized the Ten Commandments as the fulfillment of the law.

"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Rom. 13:8-10)

May God guide us to the truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter,

Conscience had no written or mandatory judgement but, was still wrong. It produced fear for Cain was afraid of people killing him and he asked God for a mark of protection.

Their law of conscience was performed and whatever was contained in the written law was a law unto themselves

The written law of Moses had a written judgement and this is why fear would come to the individual and make them lean to self effort and condemnation and more times than no they sinned. Also, they didn't have the Spirit abiding in them 24-7 and the written law could not save.. This is why Paul said I do the things I don't want to do, etc. This was an example of life under the Mosaic law. It doesn't mean that they could never attain to the commandment but, it was much harder. Talk to a jew who had to abide by 630 commandments and more than a 1000 more statutes and commandments.

Under the age of Grace we still have a conscience, we know the 10 commandments, and now we have the Spirit residing in us constantly, and grace to teach us to deny ungodliness and worldliness, because of the power of the blood which saves us,, the cross and resurrection power of the gospel.

There are different things to be put in the next but, sometimes with a different context. Some people think because the scripture says the law was wrath, that there was no love. Yet, Jesus said, the greatest commandment was Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, etc. There is law in each age and grace in every age.

Romans 13 is Paul explaining what the law of love contains . When you perform the law of love because of all the things I've already mentioned you will fulfill the things of the law of love, not the Mosaic law or ethic.

You would have to agree that it is important what you say, why you say it, and how you say it.

There is nothing wrong with the 10 commandments unless you don't understand the context and what entails that context.

Most people like Joseph Prince are pointing out the dangers of certain things taken out of context not the truth of right and wrong.

Law and Grace has always been a tough subject and read for many in the christian world. This is why I said the Mosaic law is very close to Grace because of the truth of the moral laws. On the other hand, because of the context of what entails or produces, attaining to or not attaining to, etc, they are at polar opposites. God help us to be open to truth and handle with care because we will be judged for our works as believers according to building on the foundation of the church. 1 Corinthians 3. God bless! A truth seeker


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

Many have misunderstood the apostle Paul's writings on "Fallen from Grace" because they lump the Ten Commandments together with the Laws of Moses related to circumcision that are no longer applicable to Christians in the New Covenant..

1. The Ten Commandments are to be kept by Christians because by doing so God's love is manifested in their lives (1 Jn. 5:2-3).

2. The Lord Jesus Christ said that keeping the Ten Commandments is essential to enter into life (Mt. 19:16-19)

3. True believers in the End Time are those that “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17; 14)

4. Those Christians that die in the Lord are those “who keep the commandments of God of God and the faith of Jesus.” (Rev. 14:12-13)

I hope and pray that many Christians will come to the knowledge of the truth on the Ten Commandments and have the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

May the Lord Jesus Christ.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

arkwriter, Many have misunderstood Paul's writings and even Peter said there are many things he said that was hard to understand.

The 10 commandments being automatically perceived by most people is the whole point that it is important we understand the true context which includes all of what comes with it in that context.

The point that was being discussed was Joseph Prince being wrong about the 10 commandment for the new covenant believer today. He is write in his context and you agree with him for it is written on our hearts.

You don't seem to believe the Mosaic Law was abolished which is not true to the scripture. Most people believe the ceremonial laws and the civil laws were abolished but, not the moral law. The moral law with in itself was not abolished, but, the moral law according to the Mosaic Ethic was. I've already stated why before. This cannot be refuted and gentiles were never under the Mosaic law either cannot be refuted. It doesn't mean that the moral laws are not eternal laws of right and wrong,etc., but, in their proper context.

I'm not against using conscience, or written law or law in our hearts if we have to because we have been given all those things and Paul said he beat himself and brought himself under subjection, etc. At the same time we need to understand how to attain victory over sin to perform the commandment. But the performance should be more our obedience and God's love working in us and being who we are not coercion of the flesh. The point is that God has given us a better way, better promises and we need to take advantage of it.

1. 1 John 5:2-3 says nothing about the 10 commandments, it is the law of love in it's fullest sense.

2. Matthew 19:16-19; Jesus spoke this to a jew under the Mosaic law and Jesus lived under the Mosaic law and taught it. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law, especially in Jesus day. This is why he called the phonecian woman a dog. Also, Jesus is speaking about entering into eternal life by the Kingdom of God in their hearts and attaining to the earthly Kingdom of Heaven which the Jews were looking towards and will receive the earthly Kingdom at the second coming.

3. Revelation 12:17; 14; These will be Messianic Jews who believe in the Messiah and the new covenant. Jesus spoke to the Jewish nation only as far as the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven message, not Gentiles before the cross. In the tribulation jews will accept the truth of the new covenant that the nation missed at his 1st coming and become Messianic christians. But, this passage doesn't stipulate the 10 commandments.

4. Revelation 14:12-13; These are the blessed dead and some will be jews and others will be Gentiles and they except the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ which has nothing to do with the 10 commandments according to the law of Moses.

There are many things that were abolished or not brought back into another covenant or brought back in another manner. I believe the truth of the 10 commandments of being eternal laws and sin is always wrong and abiding by the commandment is always right. But, if God has given us a greater way to do the commandment we need to take advantage of it.

We are under the law of love and the law of the Spirit. There was love in the age of Grace for Jesus said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul and thy neighbor as thyself, and yet, after the jewish nation had rejected him and he was preparing his disciples for after he was gone he told them he gave them a new commandment which was love. If it was according to the law of Moses he wouldn't have said new. The law of the Spirit didn't come till the day of Pentecost, but, it didn't mean they didn't have the Spirit in some ways but, not the Spirit without measure which Jesus said. This didn't happen until Jesus was risen and went back to Heaven.

Joseph Prince is much misunderstood and he is not a false prophet. Many people misunderstand about the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God, but, I don't think they should be excoriated if they are ignorant (lack of knowledge, not stupid) but, they do need to be presented with the truth and allow God to show them what is right and wrong.

I believe we understand each other's point of view and you can feel free to comment on what I said, but, I would like to have a discussion on the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God because I believe this is one of the most pivotal points for this generation to understand and not be confused on.

God bless! May God help us to always seek the truth


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

You are absolutely and completely wrong in your statement:

"You don't seem to believe the Mosaic Law was abolished which is not true to the scripture." I do believe the Mosaic Law was abolished, and I have written it very clearly in my hub. I believe you are a truthful and honest Christian, and I think your mind was not clear about my stance on the Mosaic Law in the New Covenant. I hope that you will not make that mistake again.

Your exegesis on the biblical texts are not acceptable.

You wrote: "1. 1 John 5:2-3 says nothing about the 10 commandments, it is the law of love in it's fullest sense." The Lord Jesus Christ have summarized the Ten Commandments into two categories (Mk. 12:28-31). The first four commandments is the expression of man's love towards God. First Commandment - If you love God you will only worship Him alone (Ex. 20:1-3). Second

Commandment - If you love God you will not bow down before images (Ex. 20:4-6). Third Commandment - If you love God you will not take His name in vain (Ex. 20:7). If you love God you will keep the Sabbath day holy which He had established at the time of Creation (Ex. 20:8-11).

If you love your fellow man you will keep the remaining six commandments (Rom. 13:8-10)

Jerry, you wrote: "2. Matthew 19:16-19; Jesus spoke this to a jew under the Mosaic law and Jesus lived under the Mosaic law and taught it. " Please read that same scriptural verses again very carefully. Jesus was talking about the Ten Commandments - NOT the Mosaic Law. I hope that you do not follow the false teachers that insist Gentile Christians do not have to keep the Ten Commandments.

Jerry wrote: "3. Revelation 12:17; 14; These will be Messianic Jews who believe in the Messiah and the new covenant. " and also wrote: " But, this passage doesn't stipulate the 10 commandments." Let me quote this verse again. They are those "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." What commandments was the Holy Spirit revealing to the apostle John. Are the Ten Commandments NOT the commandments of God? Do you keep the commandments of God and leave out the Ten Commandments ? If you deny the Commandments of God include the Ten Commandments, then Jerry, you are in grave danger of condemnation.

You wrote: "4. Revelation 14:12-13; These are the blessed dead and some will be jews and others will be Gentiles and they accept the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ which has nothing to do with the 10 commandments according to the law of Moses."

Those verses state very clearly. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. " It has nothing to do with the law of Moses.

The King James Version has this verse that states very clearly: "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they have the right to the tree of life, and enter through the gates into the city." (Rev. 22:14)

Joseph Prince is a false teacher. He and those who follow his false teachings will not make it to heaven.

I hope and pray that, Jerry, you will keep God's commandments and have the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

May God bless and guide you to the truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I humbly apologize if I misunderstood your position of the Mosaic Law being abolished. You do mention the separation of the 10 commandments from the Mosaic Law. This is an open ended statement and not clarifying your context. The 10 commandments were the summary of the Mosaic law; Exodus 20. Their glory was done away with and Moses had to put a veil over his head so the children of Israel wouldn't see it. 2 Corinthians 3:1-16.

When I say or Joseph Prince or anyone else that understands the big picture about grace, that the Mosaic law was abolished totally it means totally across the board.

1. Calvin believed that the ceremonial laws were abolished and that was pretty obvious. Colossians 2:15 and Hebrews 9, etc.

2. Timothy says the law which was a reference to the Mosaic law are for the disobedient and lawless. After all they have to be subdued and christians shouldn't have to be subdued. This covers the civil and would be categorized as moral laws. Read it carefully.

2. The moral laws is definitely a sore spot for many because Calvin said they couldn't be abolished otherwise it would destroy the validity of God' character and his truth for his word is truth and you can't separate God and his word. The moral laws being abolished within themselves and their truth and being God's law can never be abolished. This is why I stipulate the 10 commandments according to the Mosaic ethic. So even though you may not believe the 10 commandments are a part of the Mosaic law you surely can understand that their is a difference and better promise that God has provided since the cross.

The children of Israel knew the 10 commandments better than the gentiles per say, but, look how they struggled all the time and were in sin. The struggle is revealed in Romans 7.

As far as your scriptures about the commandments I have to say doesn't ever mean the 10 commandments under the Mosaic ethic. You could say that it is talking about the 10 commandments written within our hearts, if you'd like which wouldn't be technically correct but, could entail the summary of the new covenant.

I don't believe many people are fair to Joseph Prince and trust me he don't need my defense. It doesn't mean that I may agree with him on every point but, I have not seen anything on this point of christians not abiding by the 10 commandments of the Mosaic ethic unscriptural. I have had nobody give a scripture that says we abide by the 10 commandments of the Mosaic ethic. There is no such scripture or context that implies this. The 10 commandments can be implied or said to be in Adam's day because when they obeyed out of their conscience and performed what would be in the Mosaic law later, it was a law unto themselves. Right and wrong of the Moral law were no different in this age or any other age. They both brought condemnation but, the difference was that Adam didn't have a written law and Moses did. Now, today, the curse has been lifted so we can live free from condemnation and there are certain things we may be punished for but, not necessarily in the same way. If you sassed you parents you were stoned in the day of Moses. Today, that is not a mandatory judgement.

The main point we are making is that their is a better way to achieve the commandment than how they did it in the old testament because we have better promises. This is why Joseph Prince and the message of grace is helping get victory over condemnation.

I have traveled all over North America and then some and have played in some of the biggest fundamentalists churches at the time, knowing first hand of their teaching of mixing law and grace and saw how it caused the struggle and condemnation in their lives and they were always trying to keep the 10 commandments to the Mosaic Ethic. It is why half of the church in America of professing believers either struggle, live carnal, have condemnation, have to rededicate their live to God all the time because they are taught to be backslidden. The true church is not backslidden and not divided. The struggle and bad teaching according to context are silent weapons Satan uses to keep christians unproductive for God.

Do you believe that their is a difference in achieving the 10 commandments of the Mosaic ethic and within our hearts?


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I want to simplify and shorten what I have said.

1. You and I and Joseph Prince believe that the commandments are written on our hearts.

2. Joseph Prince and I believe we will do the commandments because of who we are in Christ and his finished work. Do you believe this?

3. Joseph Prince and I do not believe that you do the commandments merely because you have to try to perform a commandment out of self effort, or condemnation. Do you believe this?

4. You, Joseph Prince and I agree the Mosaic Law was abolished?

5. You, Joseph Prince and I would most likely agree that the moral law in itself cannot be abolished.

6. Joseph Prince and I agree that the moral law according to the Mosaic ethic was abolished. Do you agree with this statement?

I will await your answer. God bless! Jerry Kelso


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

My hub is about "True and False Teachings on "Falling from Grace"" Joseph Prince's teaching is false when he wrote: " You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments." --- an excerpt from Destined to Reign – pages 267- 268. The six points that you just wrote does not resonate with the false teachings of Joseph Prince. Since Joseph specifically mentioned the "Ten Commandments" we shall discuss the Ten Commandments.

Joseph Prince in his book and broadcasts indicates he does not distinguish the difference between the Ten Commandments and the Laws of Moses. If he did he would not have written those fallacious statements. If Joseph Prince really believes in what you wrote he should publicly renounce what he wrote in that book and if possible repent publicly of his sin of misleading thousands of followers.

Jerry , please read my web site on the difference between God's Laws and the Laws of Moses:

https://sites.google.com/site/lawgraceark/home/law...

I personally know people who have left a commandment- keeping congregation after reading his book. One person have also cut off relationship with close relatives. Joseph Prince's teaching of radical grace is destroying souls. He keeps on preaching that you cannot mix the law with grace. The apostle Paul wrote: " For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Rom. 6:14-15) A true Bible teacher teaches law and grace together.

Jerry, many false teachers teach that it is impossible to keep the Ten Commandments, therefore don't even try. Actually it is not difficult because our Lord Jesus Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law." (Gal. 3:13) The Ten Commandments are called the "royal Law" and "Law of liberty" (Jas. 2:8-12).

God bless you.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I understood Joseph Prince to say that God has written the commandments on our hearts. This is why I said he would have to believe that the 10 commandments according to the Mosaic ethic is not for the christian.

You have said the 10 commandments are written on our hearts. Now whether you want to believe the 10 commandments is a part of the Mosaic law or not doesn't really matter, if you properly understand Romans 7. The Mosaic law was Holy and Good but, it was taken advantage of by the law of sin and death and made them live to the frailty of man and sin more than living an overcoming life. Now you can rebut by saying the 10 commandments didn't have to be abolished because they just needed the better promises of the spirit without measure and grace to teach them to deny ungodliness and worldliness and I don't believe I would have any argument within that context because we know the law couldn't save anyone anyway, only the risen Lord could. But Paul explicitly said we don't serve the oldness of the letter of the law, but, the spirit of the law. Romans 7:6. The law was Holy and Good and that is how Paul knew that coveting, etc was wrong. The commandment wasn't death in itself, but because the law of sin and death could take advantage of it, it was death when they lived to the flesh. This was all because of the things that would result from living unto the letter of the law. It was more hit and miss because of being taking advantage of it and it show the strength of sin.

Today, we shouldn't follow this pattern, not from the truth it holds but from a strict works mentality that causes self effort and mentality. In this sense, it is not smart to mix law and grace.

I read about God's laws and the law of Moses but, there is no scripture that you gave that says that or no context. All of Moses was given by God and the 10 commandments is part of what God wrote on the tablets of stone.

Your scriptures on Jesus fulfilling the law had to do with Jesus being under the Mosaic law and fulfilling the prophecies that the law and prophets said about him.

As far as Joseph Prince destroying people's lives I would differ. Most people misunderstand most people who have something different teaching but, one has to use wisdom with what that person says completely first.

Teaching law and grace together doesn't mean we don't have laws and commandments. This is where people go to seed to what someone says and especially if they pull it out context.

The book of James is misunderstood. Even though the James talked to the scattered tribes of Jews he is not talking about a works mentality. He is talking about who you really are when the trials of life come, the mirror shows it and does not lie no matter what you may say. The royal law and the law of liberty were contained in the written law of Moses and if you do them but, if you are a respect of persons you transgress the law and you know that if you offend in one point you are guilty of all. But, he is not trying to get them to live by the letter of the law as in Romans 7, but, by being who they are in Christ.

You have to admit that the scripture is clear that we do not live by the letter of the law but, by the spirit of the law. Ten Commandments-Letter of the law-Mosaic law and Ten Commandments-Spirit of the law-New Covenant. Scripturally it cannot be denied. As far as Joseph Prince, that's is for you to decide.

As far as falling from Grace statement he is not wrong in his context. Hebrews 6 brings out that if they follow the principles of Christ which was the Mosaic law and doctrines of baptism, etc. it would be impossible to renew them again unto repentance. It couldn't be talking about backsliders in general because we need a christian can be restored. If the jew went back to Judaism and stayed there there was no hope because they had to be saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross.

I had one more comment but, I have to go. God bless jerry kelso


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I won't belabor the point except to say that there is a difference of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

For those in Galatia that were going back to the law to be justified they were falling from grace. If one is sinning they are being disobedient and are said to have the law mentality, (living by the letter of the law) or the flesh mentality, (which is a result of the letter of the law mentality). These are how the terms are used, but, one thing is for sure that when you fail it is never called the grace mentality.

It's fine for one to hold in esteem the 10 commandments, whether he says it has been or not been abolished, as long as he or she holds it in esteem in the correct context. ie Letter of the law and the spirit of the law and what it encompasses.

Do you understand what I am saying. We are to speak truth but, also to yield to the truth. If you think my position according to the scriptures about the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is incorrect then I challenge you to prove it wrong by the scriptural context.

I will ask one more thing, can you tell me what 1 Corinthians 15:29 when Paul, said I daily means? Jerry Kelso A Truth Seeker


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Jerry,

Here is what I believe regarding the Ten Commandments in the New Covenant setting.

Changing from the Old to the New Covenant through the Lord Jesus Christ was prophesied by Jeremiah in the Old Testament.

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:8-13)

The law that was once external, written on two stone tablets and placed in the Ark of the Covenant for the people of God (Israel) is now transferred into the hearts of all who know the Lord Jesus Christ and have become partakers in the New Covenant.

“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.” (Ezek. 36:25-27)

This is what the New Covenant will do to God’s Law. The law would be put into the minds and hearts of God’s people. With the New Covenant also came the promise of the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit in the hearts of those who receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It is the Holy Spirit who guides us to follow God's Laws and also gives us the power to keep His laws.

In the Old Covenant the believer’s relationship with the Law was bondage and slavery. The Law brought condemnation. It declared him guilty. Sin had dominated his heart and body. In the New Covenant the believer’s new relationship with the Law is that of freedom and victory. It is freedom from the bondage of sin. The Lord Jesus Christ has set the believer free from the power of sin, and the condemnation of the Law (Rom. 8:1). We are now free to obey the Law in a new way through the power of the Holy Spirit that indwells us. We are not saved or justified before God by trying to keep the Law. We are saved and justified by grace through our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Just as Christ was victorious over the power of sin, so we too can walk in this victory by the power of His Holy Spirit whom He has given us.

In the Old Covenant a believer had to struggle and strive to obey the Ten Commandments which he often failed. In the New Covenant a believer's mission is to obey the Holy Spirit who will guide him to do God’s will and keep His commandments. Praise and thank the Lord Jesus Christ for the New Covenant.

All the above is written in my hub "God's Laws in the Two Covenants"

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/godslaws2c...

May God bless and guide you.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, As I said before there is nothing we disagree on this point as far as striving to obey and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide him and do the work through him.

So the conclusion is, like I said before of what you had stated and that was the 10 commandments was not a part of the Mosaic Law but, separate and called the Law of God.

Many people believe this and they also believe that the moral laws could not be abrogated in any form or fashioned because this would destroy the validity of the truth of the commandments and God's character of being moral or the difference in right and wrong, etc.

The 10 commandments were part of the Mosaic law scripturally. You cannot get around this by scripture. You can conclude this by pointing out that the law was Holy and Good; which it was; and you can conclude it by saying it is in the new testament; which it is, but the context of the weakness of the commandment to help you achieve it is the context.

I wouldn't indict you for your belief by itself but, the big problem is that you separate the 10 commandments from the Mosaic Law and this is not scriptural.

The children of Israel had 630 laws and over 1200 other statutes and commandments. The 10 commandments had to be performed or it would bring specific judgements on them which is not necessarily in the new covenant. The 10 are specific commandments but the ones that are moral (9) can also be classified as the sum of the law. The sabbath being considered moral is debatable.

You have to show a specific scripture that is plain or at least closely implied and even then implied doesn't always bring Thus saith God to it.

The law is still Holy and Good but, it can do nothing internally anymore than externally. All it can say is Thou Shalt Not. It takes the power of a risen Lord to give you strength to fulfill the law in your hearts.

When you mention the 10 commandments by itself people's including the average christian's perception is the law mentality of the old covenant because human nature is works oriented and so are christians to the extreme. This is why Paul said what he did in Roman's 7 about the letter of the law. This book and his ministry was to Jews and Gentiles but, Romans was basically gentile.

Basically, what I've said here is the same thing that Joseph Prince believes and scripturally is accurate. If we want to stay with your view that is fine and if people don't live in condemnation and struggle fine. It's experience vs. scripture I take scripture. Either side it still comes to being obedient. The letter of the law which included the 10 commandments-old covenant and the 10 commandments in our hearts-new covenant. All I ask is that you give better scriptures than what you have in your posts that the 10 commandments were not a part of the written law. Remember Romans 1 talks about those who performed in their conscience what would be later contained in the written law. This means that when Cain killed Abel which was murder he transgressed what would be in the written law later, which was Thou shalt not Kill. This is also one of the 10 commandments. God bless! Jerry Kelso


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, The last paragraph in the last post is supposed to be Romans 2 not Romans 1. I supposed I got in a hurry.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

You wrote: "The 10 commandments were part of the Mosaic law scripturally. You cannot get around this by scripture."

You also wrote: "I wouldn't indict you for your belief by itself but, the big problem is that you separate the 10 commandments from the Mosaic Law and this is not scriptural."

I have just completed an article which I would like you and others that think like you to read and digest so that you will get the truth and a better understanding of the differences between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses.

The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses

http://www.geocities.ws/arkpw/commandmentsmoses.ht...

Joseph Prince should recall his book "Destined to Reign" and correct all the doctrinal mistakes, at least the one that I pointed out concerning "Falling from grace is going back to the Ten Commandments". It is misleading and destructive to people's souls. You should follow the truth and not the teachings of a false teacher.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I read the posts and the scriptures used were not concrete to show the 10 commandments according to the Mosaic law was not abolished. They were all conjecture including the ones in the new testament that use the word commandments.

Romans 7 talks about the law of God is in context with the Mosaic law for this was the whole context of that chapter. The law was Holy and Good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made them live to the frailty of man and sin.

The issue is the letter of the law which includes obeying the 10 commandments and most of the time trying to achieve it out of self effort, condemnation and fear or the spirit of the law, which achieves the commandment out of the power of the finished work of Christ, the help of the Holy Spirit without measure and recognizing who were are in Christ. It is grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldliness through the spirit of the law because it is written on our hearts. It is trying to keep the letter of the law that more times than not lead to self effort, condemnation, and fear.

Paul in Corinthians talked about the 10 commandments being a ministration of death and yet glorious at the same time. It was not within itself as far as the truth or what good what result if you achieved it. It was because of the other things that were weak, and this and also because the 10 commandments had no power to help you achieve it. This could only be done by a risen Savior.

I've already gave you scriptural proof which is solid that the 10 commandments were a part of the Mosaic law. The letter of the law due to the power that the commandment could not give within itself to help folks to achieve it and resulted in self effort, condemnation and fear and specific judgement is what was abolished at Calvary.

If you don't understand the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law you will more times than not struggle. And when you live by the letter of the law and sin you have fallen from grace.

Even in Hebrews 6 was all about those Jews that didn't really understand the difference between the old and new covenants or had forgotten them, or had succumbed to pressure from judaizers, etc. had to go on to perfection which was the new covenant, If they went back to the old covenant of living and stayed there they would be lost forever because there was no salvation in the old covenant because the law couldn't save you in the first place.

The fact is that we have an advantage over our former brothers and sisters before the cross. We have a conscience and we have the written law and we have the commandments written in our hearts. The truth is that we have a conscience that we can still use and we should, and we have the scripture to know for a fact of what basic morals of right and wrong are and it should be there in our minds. But, if we are truly saved and have a real ongoing relationship with Christ we will have a conscience and the scripture will be there in our conscience and we can look it up if we need to but, now those are who we are and we have power that helps us overcome in a greater measure. We need this because we see that just conscience alone or with a written law it was very hard and minuscule of performing the commandments. This is why Satan has used this tool against the church. The church knows they live in the age of grace and freedom of liberty but, many lives show they don't exactly live in real freedom of liberty. When people learn the truth about grace they will understand that conscience and the scripture will always be there in their proper place. Trust me, I have studied this long before I ever heard of Joseph Prince. Thank God he showed the church how the letter of the law creeps into our lives and how to have victory over it.

The bottom line is you have not shown solid scripture or context to prove your point. Those scriptures were basically conjecture. Just because the word commandment is used doesn't mean that it is talking about the 10 commandments, or implied. As I said about the scriptures that have about the 10 commandments is all within the new law of love which Jesus gave to his disciples after the nation had rejected him and he knew he would go away etc.

I would ask you; what is your basic objection to the 10 commandments being abolished according to the Mosaic Ethic. If you abolish the 9 that are moral it would be impossible but, if you say to the Mosaic Law which we were never under to begin with, it would just mean that the commandments are not to be achieved in the same exact way today because God has a better way. It doesn't destroy the morality of the law in this way. This is the whole point as well as the other things I have mentioned; that Joseph Prince is making. People's perception of the 10 are reverted to the law of Moses and silently they fall into the trap of self effort,etc. This is very prevalent in the church today and cannot be denied. I have to go but, I need stronger scripture than what is in that post or that you have given me. Jerry Kelso


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

You wrote: " I would ask you; what is your basic objection to the 10 commandments being abolished according to the Mosaic Ethic."

I strongly object to that statement because it is a lie of the devil. Joseph Prince is being deceived and pushing a false doctrine that "Falling from grace is going back to the Ten Commandments." The Ten Commandments is the moral law that are given by God. It has never been abolished and will never be abolished until the Lord's Return to take His chosen ones to heaven. His chosen ones are those that faithfully keep "the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17). Your poor argument that it is not Ten Commandments is unacceptable.

The Ten Commandments are clearly defined by the One True God. "And God spoke all these words, saying: I am the LORD your God, . . . .(Exodus 20:1-17). Remember the Bible states that the whole Ten Commandments are the words of God. Not a single word comes from Moses.

You should reword your statement t read: The Ten Commandments are not abolished, but keeping them according to the Mosaic Ethic is abolished. Joseph Prince should recall his book and also correct his erroneous statement to read: ""Falling from grace is going back to the keeping the Law of Moses". The whole epistle of Galatians referred to circumcision as the Law of Moses. The Ten Commandments is not the Law of Moses. Anyone who cannot see the vast differences between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses has to be spiritually blinded by the lies of Satan.

The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses

http://www.geocities.ws/arkpw/commandmentsmoses.ht...

I pray that your spiritual eyes will be opened. May God bless you.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, 1. I'm sorry you are not understanding the context that I speak about according to the Mosaic Ethic. I've explained it more than once. It is the difference of living to the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

2. Falling from grace is going back to the 10 commandments is when you are living the letter of the law. But when Joseph Prince is saying this is because God has made a better promise on how to achieve the commandment. God wants to be abide by his commandment by loving him and not mere obedience to the letter of the law which can lead to condemnation and fear to the extreme.

I pointed out in Hebrew 6 the jews were told to quit going back to the principle of Christ which was the doctrines of the Mosaic law. They were told to mature in Christ which, is mentioned in the statement of; going on into perfection. If they went back to the old doctrines of baptism, repentance from dead works, etc. etc. they would eventually be back in a lesser covenant that had no salvation there.

You said, the 10 commandments were moral law, but, only nine would be considered in that category. The sabbath is not a moral law for it has nothing to do with man's soul. Also, we don't have to observe saturday only for the Sabbath, for every day is a sabbath.

3. You say that the 10 commandments are the words of God because not a single word comes from Moses. The truth is that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit as he breathed upon them. God gave Moses 630 laws and more than a 1000 or more statutes to Moses that were considered laws of God. The prophets spoke words of God and apostles etc. To say because God wrote them on the tablets of stone with his fingers distinguishes it from the rest of the Mosaic law is not scripturally true. You cannot show one scripture that proves your point, which is conjecture on your part and is not proper exegesis of the scripture, especially, when you try to match up the 10 commandments with every scripture that says commandments.

4. Your statement about circumcision being the law of Moses doesn't hold water for anything. I've already pointed out that scriptures like Romans 7 and 2 Corinthians 3 are talking specifically about the law and the reason why it says the commandment was weak and their had to be a greater promise and a great glory to come.

If you want to believe what you believe that is fine, but, seriously brother you shouldn't make it thus saith the Lord unless you have the truth of the scripture backing you up and you don't. You are using conjecture and building up a straw man.

Do you really think that I or Joseph Prince would be against anyone making sure that they don't kill, steal, bear false witness, have idols before God, commit fornication or adultery, etc.? Do you think we don't want christians to Love the Lord God with all their hearts and love their neighbor as theirselves, etc?

5. You say the 10 commandments have never been abolished because you believe they were never a part of the Mosaic law, which is not true. But, then you go on to say they won't be abolished until the Lord's return to take us to heaven and you give Revelation 12:17. There is not even an implication that they will be abolished at that time. The only scripture remotely to prove that would be Matthew 5:17, 18. The church will have already been raptured out before Revelation 12:17. Those people are the Jewish remnant unless, you believe that the woman is the Church and not Israel. The earthly government will be run in Jerusalem by Jesus and the Jewish nation and there will still be parts of the Mosaic law instituted in the Millenial period of earth.

I will close with a question. When Paul said; I die daily what do think he meant?

I pray your spiritual eyes are open. Jerry Kelso


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

You wrote: "You said, the 10 commandments were moral law, but, only nine would be considered in that category.

My Response: It is not by accident or random chance that the all-wise and precisely accurate God gave mankind the Ten Commandments. He did not give nine and neither did He give eleven commandments. He gave exactly Ten Commandments and it was complete and perfect. “. . . So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tables of stone.” (Deut. 4:12-13) “. . . He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me." (Deut. 5:22) “And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, he gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.” (Ex. 31:18)

You wrote: " The sabbath is not a moral law for it has nothing to do with man's soul.

My response: What is the rest that the Hebrew writer was referring to in Hebrews 4:4? "For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works". He was writing about the Seventh Day Sabbath. Now let us see whether the Sabbath Commandment has anything to do with salvation. Let us read Hebrews 4:9-11. "There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience." Here is the moral of the Sabbath Commandment. If you do not rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath you are not the people of God because you are not doing what God did at Creation (Gen. 2:1-3). Not keeping the Sabbath is immoral because it is disobedience to God!

The Sabbath Commandment was not abolished after the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is the proof. The Lord Jesus Christ had already died. His Spirit went up to Paradise and His body was resting in the tomb. The disciples of Christ went to the tomb. "Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment." (Luke 23:55-56)

You wrote: Also, we don't have to observe saturday only for the Sabbath, for every day is a sabbath.

My response: There is only one true Sabbath day. It is the Seventh Day of the Week, which is Saturday. There is no such thing in the Bible that states every day is the Sabbath. It is man's invention.

Worship God in Spirit and Truth.

May God bless you and guide you to the Truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

1. Exodus was in the dispensation of the law and it was given to Moses and Israel. Paul said in Ephesians that we were strangers to the covenant of the law of Moses. These scriptures don't say that we are under them today in under the context of the law.

2. Your scriptures for the sabbath has nothing to do with a person's conduct or salvation. God rested on the 7th day from his creation. There is no implication it is moral. It is the blood of Christ applied that saves you and recognizes you as a christian not keeping the sabbath.

Read Paul and you will discover in the epistles that everyday is sabbath. As far as the scripture in Luke they were jews and they were under the law. You need to understand context and dispensations.

One more thing you didn't answer is, do you know what I die daily means in 1 Corinthians 15:1?

Jerry Kelso


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

I am shocked at your interpretation of Scriptures. Just because God personally handed the two tablets of the Ten Commandments to Moses in the Old Testament time, you wrote that you are not bound to keep them. Is that a sound doctrine?

What does Paul's epistle to the Ephesians 2:12 state?

"Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." The phrase "strangers to the covenants of promise" means that at that time Gentiles were ignorant of the "covenants of promise".

Actually, you cannot find any scripture that God ever had any covenant with the Gentiles. Please find me one scripture! Gentile Christians are "wild olive branches" grafted to natural olive tree which is Israel." (Rom. 11:17-24)

You wrote: "It is the blood of Christ applied that saves you and recognizes you as a christian not keeping the sabbath."

Jerry, I truly believe that we (Jews and Gentiles) are saved by grace through faith. Nobody is justified by the law - not even the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are given by God not to save mankind, but for us to lead moral lives and to maintain our relationship with Him.

Just like the traffic lights at the street intersections. They are installed by the city, not to save lives, but to maintain orderly traffic movement and to prevent accidents. Those who run red lights not only endanger their own lives but may also cause death upon themselves and others. It is the same with the Ten Commandments. If we do not keep them we will endanger our salvation.

You do not see the Sabbath Commandment has anything to do with morals. Let me ask you this question. Would you work for a company 7 days a week with no break whatsoever? Why not? Because it is immoral! The Lord Jesus Christ said: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) God created the Sabbath for the good of man.

You wrote: "Read Paul and you will discover in the epistles that everyday is sabbath."

My Response: There is no such teaching in the Bible. God created the Sabbath at Creation . People misinterpret Romans 14. Paul was not writing about the Sabbath. He was discussing days of eating and fasting. Nothing about the Sabbath.

You may get a better idea of my beliefs on the Sabbath on this website:

The Seventh Day Sabbath

http://www.arkpw.net/index.php?option=com_content&...

I shall be taking a break now.

May God guide you to the truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, 1. Why do you keep slanting your words to make it sound like I don't believe that killing is wrong or that there is no commandment that we abide by that says killing is wrong. The only part we differ in is that you believe it was the law of God and not a part of the Mosaic law. Obviously, you don't understand the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law or else you separate the letter of the law from what and why the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic law.

The whole chapter of Romans 7 deals with the weakness of the commandment. Verse 7 specifically talks about lust and thou shalt not covet. That is why the 10 commandments were good, and if you performed them it was better, but, that is where the problem was. But it was death because it didn't have power to make you do that commandment. Surely you cannot be so naïve as not to understand this. It is just like you train your child by the law at the beginning because he cannot access much of anything else, but, when he is older and matures and knows the morals, he is going to be ready to be obedient out of pure love to his parents. It doesn't mean the truth of the morals is still not there in case they get out there a little bit. It doesn't mean that a punishment won't happen if he does something wrong. The difference is be, be, be not do, do, do. We do because of who we are are the power of Christ finished work.

Now I realize you may be upset at Joseph Prince because he might go to the point of no fear of judgement at all because of Christ work on the cross. I understand partially what he is saying. If you live within the context of grace you are less apt to fall into the pitfalls that many christians have as far as open sins. I believe you should have a healthy fear of God and what can transpire if you continually have something if you keep obsessing with that is sinful.

2. The new covenant was made with the jew; (Jeremiah 31:31). But, the gentiles have been grafted in and the mystery of the church was the gentiles being made a part of the same body as the jews and now there are no jews and gentiles in the body as far as being on the same level ground. Read Ephesians 3 and Romans 9-11. Jesus died for the whole world so, yes we have a covenant in his blood.

I am not against rules and regulations and judgements but, you are misunderstanding the whole point between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

The jews knew the 10 commandments and look how much they sinned and leaned to self effort. The church is no different in the past because they don't understand about how the mechanics of the law worked.

Today, Joseph Prince has christians who believed just like you and were bound, condemned and now they are being free from the struggle.

3. You are try to come through the back door with the sabbath. Now, I don't know if you are 7th day adventist or Catholic or whatever, it doesn't matter to me, because we are talking about the validity of the scripture.

You trying to make the sabbath a moral law. Why. It doesn't have nothing to do with your character, at least not directly. You say it is because it shows that it is immoral which is more a play on words to prove your point. It is true God rested not because he had to rest like your straw man, being the person at work. The law was specific about their sabbath being on saturday. Paul said, that wasn't the same for the gentiles in the church; Ephesians 2:16. He wasn't talking about just eating and fasting because he used the word, Sabbaths. Get your context right.

If it wasn't for the fact that the 10 commandments were not a part of the Mosaic Law, I would agree with you, but, the problem is they are.

4. The bottom line is whether you want to separate the 10 or not you have to know that there is a difference between performing the letter of the law and having the spirit of the law in your hearts.

It is not right to make out like me or Joseph Prince or anyone else doesn't believe that it is wrong to kill, steal, etc. Even moral people who don't know Christ believe that much.

I'll ask you again, What did Paul mean when he said I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31? Jerry Kelso


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I went back and read about the sabbath. All the scriptures on the sabbath in the gospels Jesus is referring to is under the law dispensation. It is still true that he is Lord of the sabbath for Jews and Gentiles, but, now, everyday is a sabbath and whatever day you choose to worship is your choice.

Matthew 24:20 is about the jews in the tribulation fleeing, not the gentiles. Obviously, you believe it is talking about the church of today. Get your context right.

Hebrews 4:1-11 is not about the sabbath just because it says that they will or won't enter into his rest. Either way this is still talking to jews in either case, not gentiles.

I'm sorry but, you are not giving enough weight to the supposed evidence that you have to prove anything. It is conjecture. I don't really understand why you don't understand context? One has to know the historical context of what is being said, by whom, in what time period, and why before he can try to connect the dots with another scripture to say this is where it stems from or is related to etc.

I will ask you again, What did Paul mean when he said I die daily, 1 Corinthians 15:31? You don't have to answer nothing else. Jerry Kelso


Trace2u profile image

Trace2u 3 years ago

The problem seems to be that Arkwriter is completely out of context with Joseph Prince’s teachings …

“When we fall in love with Jesus – we fall out of love with sin!! "

Joseph Prince has never ever condoned sin, but preaches the love of the Lord and being led by the Spirit. For after all, GOD IS LOVE – or have we all forgotten??

It’s not hard to grasp – Joseph Prince, like Paul, is being condemned, simply because people like to shackle each other and be in control. It is hard to let go and let the Holy Spirit do His work, and His work WILL BE bringing us into DOING HIS WILL, as that is the way we find our true joy and blessing!

Most people don’t have enough faith in the Lord to allow others the freedom that the Jesus died to give them.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Trace2u,

Your wrote: "Joseph Prince has never condoned sin", but his teaching of when you go back to keeping the Ten Commandments you are falling from grace, is rank heresy. If you do not keep the Ten Commandments you are committing sin. Straight and simple! The Bible states: "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 Jn. 3:4) Joseph Prince and his followers try to double-talk in order to have damage control. You cannot defend Joseph Prince's false teachings. The proper thing is to repent and renounce falsehood, and get back to the truth before it is too late. "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (Rev. 22:14 NKJV).

Arkwriter


Trace2u profile image

Trace2u 3 years ago

Hi, thanks for the reply. I have studied many expository teachers on false teaching ... like Dave Hunt, etc ... and approach anyone with initial skeptism, but so far reading Joseph Prince or listening to sermons, IN FULL CONTEXT, I have not found fault.

Yes, I do think I have heard enough of Joseph Prince to be able to defend his teachings. I was a bit concerned when he preached in Joel Osteen's church as I am not sure about him (I haven't heard/read enough), but I pray that JP is guarded closely by the Lord. He preaches LIFE! - I get the Berean Call (for one) and it is negativity all the way, although I think he is well-meaning, and I do benefit from it, and believe they do serve a purpose.

Joseph Prince teaches that keeping the ten commandments as a MEANS TO AN END is not the right means to that end (that is where you fall out of "grace"). The right means is, that the more you love the Lord, the more you will live according to His will. He encourages people to dig into the word, not as a chore, but as a joy and He encourages you to seek the Lord and His will all day long.

When you hear these sermons from all these people warning, warning, warning you feel drained, and cold and not encouraged in the Lord, I know, I have lots of sermons from a lot of people.

I do not condone sin in myself, and Jesus came to give us life, and life more abundantly, and am hugely grateful for what He did for me, and that I can trust that He will pick me up if I fall, and guide me, as I do not believe that He will disappoint anyone who seeks and hopes in Him (Rom 5:5), and that if JP should ever preach something that is not of the Lord I would be aware. I don't follow any one person blindly on this earth, and never have. And even if he does err, it doesn't immediately mean he is in a state of wickedness either.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (Rom 5:17).

Personally, I have been greatly blessed in being helped not to try and control others, love more, and condemn less.

Trace


Trace2u profile image

Trace2u 3 years ago

Sorry, I forgot to mention, it is the difference between BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION and HEART TRANSFORMATION.


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Trace2u,

You wrote that you have found no fault in Joseph Prince's teachings. And you also wrote: "Joseph Prince teaches that keeping the ten commandments as a MEANS TO AN END is not the right means to that end (that is where you fall out of "grace"). The right means is, that the more you love the Lord, the more you will live according to His will.

The Lord Jesus Christ said: "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (Jn. 14:15) Joseph Prince teaches: "If you go back to the Ten Commandments you fall from grace." You do not see any fault in JP's teaching? You are blindly following a blind teacher.

The Lord Jesus Christ also said: "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. " (Jn 15:10). Some JP's disciples argue that the Ten Commandments are not God's nor Jesus' Commandments.

If the Ten Commandments are not God's commandments then whose commandments are they? Let them argue with God on Judgment Day.

Arkwriter


Jerry Kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, 1. You say there is no scripture for the sabbath day being everyday? Read Colossians 2:16,17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Verse 17; Which are a shadow of things to come: but the body of Christ.

The jews had all kinds of sabbath days. All of them were abolished for they were shadows. Read Isaiah 1:13-15; Hosea 2:1.

Christians are now free to keep any day they want as sabbath (Colossians 4:17; Romans 14:5-6; and Galatians 3:9-10. The rest you talked about in Hebrews is the rest we have in Jesus Christ.

2. Arkwriter, I have already touched upon about Joseph Prince. I do not follow him but, I am like the bereans to see if what he says is true. As Joseph Prince stated, if you go back to the 10 commandments as a christian you fall from grace. This is true for the writer of Hebrews warned those christians that if they went back to the Mosaic law which couldn't save them in the first place they would have no hope of salvation.

3. Your objection to this is talking about the 10 commandments making you fall from grace. If one does not understand gradual revelation and dispensations they will never understand why we as christians are not under the 10 commandments according to the Mosaic Ethic.

There are always commandments to keep in every age. In the antedulvian period it wasn't written but, they had a conscience. Under the Mosaic law, keeping the commandments were of utmost importance in order to be blessed or else they would cursed. Today, we still have a conscience, we learn the Mosaic law and understand what it meant to those people in that day as well. And now we have the ultimate in the reality of Jesus Christ versus the shadows of the past.

4. The Mosaic law is one complete teaching of which the 10 commandments were the summary of all the commandments that they had to keep.

What is called the ceremonial laws and the civil laws are easier to show that they were abolished for there are plenty of scriptures to plainly show this. Your objection I gather is more about the 10 commandments because of being moral. However, the civil law is moral as well for murdering is wrong but, as far as I understand you, you believe the civil law is done away with. Right? So we can't necessarily say just because the 10 commandments are moral they were not done away with according to a certain context?

5. The 10 commandments were God's commandments and they are also under the Mosaic law. They were the Mosaic law in Jesus day for he was under the Mosaic Law. John 15:10 speaking prophetically; Jesus would be correct in saying the commandments for the Jews are to have the Law forever, not according to the Law of Moses or that dispensation but, the commandments that would be written in their hearts.

As far as the church today, who are jews and gentiles in one body alike we still keep the commandments of what is contained in the new covenant. Since we are grafted in the commandments are written on our hearts also.

6. You can make an argument about the sabbath day being moral and give scriptures about creation sabbath, etc. but, that won't do away with the fact of Paul saying not to judge any man according the sabbath days etc. for the dispensation of Grace.

The bottom line is you believe the moral laws cannot be abolished because it would destroy them and this is not true. It is like a will, where you can have certain things in there and then if you decide to modify it you can still keep the same thing in there but, have it administered in a different manner than the 1st time or take other things out completely.

7. As I said before the civil law has been abolished but, that does not do away with civil law, but, now it takes on a whole new meaning. This means that now christians are not to be subdued under a list of code of ethics because, his motivation is to keep his commandments out of his own freewill and not fear a judgement. This is why Timothy says the law is for the disobedient because society needs the civil law which is filled with sinning renegades and troublemakers. The true church is not like this and the professing church shouldn't be like this either.

It is the same way with the 10 commandments, cause Joseph Prince and others like me keep the commandments but, not because we have to obey it as a list of code of ethics but, out of pure love for God.

Even growing up as a child they are to learn all the morals to become a moral agent that is ready to accept Christ. Do you want your child to obey you out of a code of ethics when they grow older? Or do you want them to obey you out of pure love because they trust you?

I know this is lengthy so I'll close with that thought. There are good law keepers in the body of Christ. I'm not trying to say they live the law of Moses, etc. but, they have a law mentality regiment. It doesn't mean they can't obey the commandments at all, but, many times they may miss the mark because of trying self effort. Read Romans 7 of Paul when he was under the law and the law of sin and death took advantage of the law Moses and made him live to sin instead of Christ.

8. The bottom line according to scripture is that we do the commandments which are in our hearts because, God loves us and being set free by resting in his grace and not the law mentality that may creep in from being regimented to following a commandment in our own self effort. There's nothing wrong with the commandments but, we have a better covenant built on better promises to be able to perform the commandments which is believing in Christ and resting in his grace.

You may think this is double talk but, the truth is it is not. I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater but I do believe in proper context and proper perspective not only to all scriptures on the subject but, also how God dealt with man in different ways in different ages. So, Christ made the covenant better and in a specific manner because the ceremonial cleansings couldn't cleanse, the civil law is not used to subdue and the moral law was done away for the it's weakness to the law of sin and death taking advantage of it which the 10 commandments were a part of because, Romans 7 was talking about the Mosaic law; how would I have known not to covet. This is the reason that the morals laws were done away with according to the Mosaic law.

If you want to say that the 10 commandment are still with us and we don't perform them to Mosaic Ethic because they are in our hearts go ahead. However, for the reasons the bible mentions about the weakness of the commandment versus the law of sin and death in Romans 7 it was abolished. The sabbath day that Paul mentions about not to be judged about is because the jews were proud of keeping commandments to the extreme and were very legalistic. Paul guarded against these things especially when talking to Gentiles who were never under the Mosaic law. This is a part of the reason that it is better to understand the Mosaic covenant across the board was abolished. James said, if you fail at one law, you failed at all the law. Also, Paul understood how this and baptism and other things would be a real argument and vice and they were were. I pray to God we learn from their mistakes.

So me, Joseph Prince or any other that believe in the same manner do not believe that you steal, kill, covet, etc.,etc. We believe in keeping commandments by resting; which is more or less believing in God's grace and allowing him to do the work and not working up to a code of ethics and motivates self effort to attain to the commandment. This is the problem with the Church today is that they are following Jesus teachings under the Mosaic law and doing, doing, doing when the message should be; he did, he did, he did!!!!! This talks about his finished work at Calvary. God bless!..


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Jerry,

1. The Seventh Day Sabbath was instituted by the One True God at the time of Creation (Gen. 2:1-3). God made it the Fourth Commandment. God says: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. . . For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth . . . Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." (Ex. 20:8-11)

The Sabbath day is NOT every day or any day that a person chooses as he or she pleases. The Sabbath Day is specifically the seventh day of the week (Saturday). If you do not remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy, you have broken the Fourth Commandment. Plain and simple.

A lot of people that do not keep the Seventh Day Sabbath argue that they have Jesus as their Sabbath. Jesus Himself did not say that if you believe in Him you don't have to keep the Sabbath. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath throughout His earthly life (Lk. 4:16). He said: Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." (Mk. 2:28). Every time a Christian keeps the Seventh Day Sabbath he or she honors Jesus Christ as their Lord on that very day. Sunday keepers do not have Jesus as their Lord on the Sabbath day.

Jerry, you wrote: "The rest you talked about in Hebrews is the rest we have in Jesus Christ." If you read Hebrews chapter 4 again you will see that the writer was referring the "rest" to the Seventh Day Sabbath (Heb. 4:4-11). Of course the Lord Jesus Christ gives us rest (Mt. 11:28-30). That rest in Matthew is ἀναπαύω anapauō (Greek) and it means to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labor in order to recover and collect his strength.

The word "rest" in Hebrews chapter 4 is σαββατισμός sabbatismos. This is definitely referring to the Seventh Day Sabbath rest. We should not get mixed up with the word "rest" in two different contexts.

So far for now. I am remembering the Sabbath Day NOW. I'll get back with you on the "rest" of your comments. (pun is intended for the same word in English but another different meaning). Sure, the Lord Jesus Christ gives us rest, but He did not abolish nor replace the Seventh Day Sabbath because He is the Lord of the Sabbath.

God bless you. Shabbat Shalom!

Arkwriter


Trace2u profile image

Trace2u 3 years ago

I can't understand why you don't clearly see the POINT … and instead seem to wait for bits and pieces said to pick at that are said. And you publicly "slam" Joseph Prince, who is being greatly used by the Lord, to bring the LIFE given by JESUS CHRIST to many people.

It begs the question - how much of the LORD DO YOU ALLOW to come through you to bless others?

Do you preach the GOOD NEWS of the gospel or simply sit "picking at" any little thing you can throwing the LAW at them instead??

I am sorry to be so blunt, but are you BLINDLY choosing not to misunderstand what is being said?

These points I just read above are what spoke to me quite clearly ….

Do you want your child to obey you out of a code of ethics when they grow older? Or do you want them to obey you out of pure love because they trust you?

John 15:10 speaking prophetically; Jesus would be correct in saying the commandments for the Jews are to have the Law forever, not according to the Law of Moses or that dispensation but, the commandments that would be WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS.

The bottom line according to scripture is that we do the commandments WHICH ARE IN OUR HEARTS, because God loves us and being set free by resting in his grace

… and not the law mentality that may creep in from being regimented to following a commandment in our own SELF EFFORT.

There's nothing wrong with the commandments but, we have a better covenant built on better promises to be able to perform the commandments which is believing in Christ and resting in his grace.

So me, Joseph Prince or any other that believe in the same manner do not believe that you steal, kill, covet, etc.,etc. We believe in keeping commandments by RESTING;

which is more or less believing in God's grace and allowing HIM to do the work and not working up to a code of ethics and motivates self effort to attain to the commandment.

(Emphasis mine)

To quote Dan Stone - "As believers, we no longer live under the law, looking to it to tell us what to do and not do, then trying our best to do it," but we LOOK to Jesus Christ. That HE directs us.

"For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise" (Galatians 3:18)

There is no life in the law - "… if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. (Galatians 3:21)

"We trust that He is living through us. We may not feel it at any given moment, but we live by faith THAT HE IS OUR LIFE."

For anyone needing to verify verses there are bibles online at http://www.biblica.com/bibles/


arkwriter profile image

arkwriter 3 years ago from Houston, Texas U.S.A. Author

Dear Trace2u,

This Hub is about the true and false teachings on "Falling from Grace"

Joseph Prince wrote in his book "Destined to Reign"

“You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments” is a false teaching. It is against the truths as taught by the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles in the Early Church. I stand by what I wrote.

You want to defend Joseph Prince, that is your prerogative. I stand by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as the One and only Savior of Mankind in the World. The Ten Commandments were given by the One True God and we shall judged by whether or not we obey them. I

t is irrelevant what motivates you to keep the Commandments of God, but most Christians keep them because they love the Lord Jesus Christ. Some others may keep them out of fear of punishment, which can also be acceptable.

Just like you are driving an automobile on the city streets. You obey the traffic signals because you are a law-abiding citizen. Another person also obey the traffic signals because they do not want to get a traffic ticket from a police officer. Yet another person wants to obey the traffic signals because they do not want to get into an accident. It does not matter why you want to obey the traffic signals, as long as you obey them.

Keeping the Ten Commandments is the same thing. They were given by God. It does not matter why you want to keep them, just as long as you keep the Ten Commandments that will be find.

I am definitely against the false teaching of Joseph Prince who wrote that "Joseph Prince wrote in his book "Destined to Reign"

“You fall from grace when you go back to the Ten Commandments”

Joseph Prince and his followers are heading in the wrong direction. Blessed are those that keep the Commandments of God (Rev.14:12; 22:14)

Do I make myself clear? May God guide you to the truth.

Arkwriter


jerry kelso 3 years ago

Arkwriter, I'm sorry, but you are going to seed on the sabbath and as a result you are not reconciling all the scriptures properly.

Jesus kept the jewish sabbath on saturday because he was a jew and it was required by the Mosaic law. The church is not under the Mosaic law so this does not hold true today.

The next reason is that Paul though a jew, was given the calling to the gentiles. Peter and James and most of the other if not all the 12 disciples ministry more to the jews. Paul said, to let no one judge you about meat or drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days. This is talking more about Jewish laws than gentiles and this includes the sabbath days. This is found in Colossians 2:16. Paul said this because many in the early church including the gentile church also, were dogged by the judaizers trying to put them under the law and it caused vices, just like water baptism in the Corinthian church. Paul wanted unity and their faith to be in Jesus Christ not a regiment of a certain day or a ordinance that men grow to prideful of to show how great their church is. This happens too many times whether they mean for it to or not.

My point is just because you have a plain statement of fact or something that is being does not necessarily make it a fact across the board on the whole subject. This is the case with Jesus keeping the sabbath on saturday. It was true for his day, but, he was under the age of law of which we are not under and Paul said we are not under those rules. If we use this as a rule of thumb then baptismal regeneration would be correct for in the early church they were baptizing in water and Acts 2:38 would mean this, because it says repent and be baptized.

The bottom line is that you cannot reconcile and harmonize scripture on the saturday as sabbath only because it was in another dispensation that we were never under and not under now. Paul said, we are not under it now.

The reason God does not want this and why Paul made an issue of it is because our faith is to be in Christ and his finished work of the cross and not a particular day or a specific ordinance that you perform, etc.

If you want to observe sabbath on saturday that is your preference and your business but, I don't think it is good since it is not a biblical requirement for the church today to make someone feel they have to conform to that requirement; and that is bible, and if you don't think so you are more that welcome to try to refute what I just said by the scripture. I say this in christian love because as a truth seeker we have to learn to rightly divide the word and be honest with the scriptures. I am sure you would agree. Sincerely, in christian love, Jerry Kelso


KP 2 years ago

Your words: The Lord Jesus Christ preached that keeping the Ten Commandments will have eternal life (Mt. 19:16-19; 5:19).

"Where exactly in Mathiew 19 and Mathiew 5 Christ had asked his followers to keep the ten Commandments?"

Here are your references: Mt.19:16-19 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"I see the number ten nowhere, I must be blind. When you read verses 18 and 19, do you understand them? Or you just conclude whatever you may have been taught by the pioneers? Can't you see that Christ himself mentioned each individual commandment that the young man and all Christ's followers to keep which had been transferred from the ten commandments that you pasted?"

Your reference: Mt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"Now, the question is, Which ones? just like the rich man had asked Christ. Why not read a little further to see again those commandments that Christ does not want His followers to break?" Here they are: Mathew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And yet, I still didn't see any number ten in this Mt 5.

The apostle Paul preached keeping the Ten Commandments (Rom. 13:8-10; 1 Cor. 7:19).

Your reference: 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Here again Paul mentioned individually every commandment that Christ had mentioned in Mt.5 and Mt. 19.

Your reference: 1Cor. 7:19

7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

"Yet again, Which one? After reading the whole chapter, nowhere I noticed the ten comandments .

Now, among everything said, which commandment from the ten commadments that you pasted for readers has not been mentioned here by Paul nor Christ in the new Covenant? So far, we can obviously see that they both preached nothing but "LOVE"."

The apostle John had written profusely on keeping the Commandments of God (1 Jn. 2:3,4; 3:22, 24; 1 Jn. 5:2,3; 2 Jn. 1:6; Rev. 12:17; 14:12; 22:14).

Precisely, which commandments? When you read verse 7, the word commandment refers to the words which we have heard from the beginning and that is "GOD". This can take us to John chapter 1 starting from verse 1 to understand that the word has been since the beginning, the word was with God and the word was God. Nothing that was created, was done without the word which is Christ who is the light of men in verse 4.

Better yet, verse 17 tells us the law was of Moses while Grace and truth are of Christ.

Your reference: 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Which one? John mentioned them in the next verse, here it is.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Your reference: 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

"Next time you read this passage, include verse 1": Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

"Everything is about believing that Jesus is the son of God and "LOVE" for God and one another. nothing mentioned "TEN COMMANDMENTS"."As for Galatians, to understand Paul, please first comprehend which commandments Christ taught causing his death

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working