God Created Evil -- The Irreparable Flaw in Christian Thought

Believers and non-believers lock horns on these HubPages on every topic imaginable. Most discussions end up in stalemates, often because Believers--necessarily, I might add--end up asserting their faith, expressing deep concern for the immortal souls of non-believers (who have no faith), and accusing them of worshiping Ego, a manifestation of Pride, the sin of sins, and a fast track to a very hot future indeed. The non-believers argue that the Believers are motivated by fear and a desperate need to belong and their insistence on an afterlife springs from a fear of death, and nothing else.

Of course the arguments are much more complex than the sketch above, but the sketch does outline the usual parameters, and it also shows why these discussions are almost invariably on a merry-go-round that never stops. You canNOT have any kind of successful argument where neither party acknowledges nor respects the fundamental premise of the other. "Apples taste better than oranges" can go nowhere, because the argument is based on personal whim alone. A pound of feathers weighs less than a pound of lead can go somewhere, because the argument is based on a common denominator.

The purpose of this very short Hub and its very scary picture is to stimulate debate around two propositions that lie at the core of virtually all significant theological debate from the beginnings of Christianity. Here they are:

1. God is Love--infinite and omnipresent. By definition, God is all-good, all-knowing and incapable of error.

2. Evil exists in the world. God is all-knowing. God created all things. God created Evil

From Augustine forward, through a dense mob of theologians, philosophers, thinkers, social analysts, poets, and novelists, for hundreds of years we have wrestled with the problem of Evil, trying desperately--as Milton put it in "Paradise Lost"--to "Justify the ways of God to men.". Believers can't wriggle out of this conundrum by saying it's all part of divine mystery, and some things we just aren't meant to understand; nor will it wash to say that Satan and Eve/Adam committed Evil through free will, so somehow WE (and the fallen Archangel) are responsible for the existence of Evil.. To believe that is to believe that God is LIMITED (contradiction in terms), in that he was unaware of Evil and the outcome of Evil acts, until WE committed them. That argument is specious and not worthy of mention.

So this Hub opens for discussion THIS QUESTION: how can we account for the fact that a God who created all things, who is all-Love and all-knowing, must have created Evil, which is an integral part of this universe.

Comments 80 comments

MrMaranatha profile image

MrMaranatha 4 years ago from Somewhere in the third world.

1) The Bible never states that God Created Evil. Not as a Primary Intention anyway.

2) In the Beginning God Created the Heaven and Earth and it was without form and Void... Darkness hovered over the face of the Deep.

Here I see that God has always been... and that Matter itself has probably always been floating around also... I do not believe in a non-existent pinpoint highly compressed matter no larger than the Period at the end of this sentence from which all of the Universes and Cosmos supposedly began. But maybe...

Maybe I can look at this and say... God divided what was there... God Restructured what was already there... God Made Something Useful from a bunch of Galactic Rubble... And God made Life... Breathed His own Life quite possibly into the non living matter... to make it alive.

To say that God Created Evil... to me that is like accusing Henry Ford of Creating Smog.

Sure it happened... and if ol Henry of looked ahead and saw the Smog he was about to inadvertently create by his new invention the Automobile... then so be it. I doubt he was much of a Greenie... And likewise God... while knowing that his Creation would Consist of Good things... also knew that there would be some infection... some rot... decay... some Evil.

He knew when he created His Angelic Host... that one would betray him... just like he knew that Judas would also betray Jesus... But God does not answer to you or I... He only answers to his own Conscience.

He has been known to Repent at times... to change his mind... mend his course... usually because someone prayed and asked him... But that is another matter... He likes the interaction with His Creations...

God Chose a Process of Refinement... He Chose to Separate... to Divide... to collect the good... and then end the bad.... To make a Pure thing. By right of Creation he has the right to do what he likes with what is his... to make the Pot... or to break the Pot... the Potter has the right to do what he likes with his clay. Matters not what the Clay or the Pot thinks of it.

And after all of the debates are over... I still have a relationship with God that you may never believe... because its Personal between me and Him.


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

Evil is as Augustine set forth so beautifully in his "Confessions," the privation of good. On the contrary of asserting that "believers" want "acceptance," from others, this is not true. But let's be clear: it is not "religion" or belief in God in general that you are writing about here. You are specifically writing here, I think, about "Christianity." I think you know that Jesus Christ Himself stated that those that believe will be hated without a cause. IN example, I never spoke or prostelyzed about my beliefs, but only with those that wanted to know or fellow Christians. The hate is greater from non-believers to believers than vice-versa. In psychological terms, as Carl Jung and occultists believe, good and evil, when integrated (evil resulting from lack of awareness of one's true motives in the unconscious) that an individual becomes "whole." The inward life is everything. I am hated because of how I look and have been hated always because of that and only started writing about what I believe on Hubpages recently, when I had seen so much hatred. The collective hate of Christianity was foretold in the New Testament. It is an inward life. We know from the study of psychology, for example, it is not always what one does (as in actions) that are in and of themselves "evil." It is what is in the heart, and our laws try to measure "intent" of the heart by 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree. I think non-believers "project" onto believers a lot of hate. If it were the other way round, at least in this country, we would not evolved to where we are today. No one "forces" or "inflicts" belief on another; it is the degree to which one is "affected" that the conflict emerges. Moonfroth, I can feel the "disdain" in your writings and I know what you hate about Christianity, but if one truly has no concern about God, why, as Carl Jung asked himself, are they affected at all by those that do?


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

I need to add: Augustine wrote: "Thus there can be good without evil, but there cannot be evil without good, nor can there be evil where there is no good." Darkness has its truth, but only when lightness is dimmed. The essence of integration between the two is "Within." God dealt us a deck of cards, and we play the hand - entirely "Within" and it is our "spirits" within that we will give account for because we are truly just balls of energy and matter, or flesh, blood and bone.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Mrmiranatha --

Thanks for visiting and thanks for your thoughtful response. Permit me to clarify: I'm a poet and a student of literature, which I taught at university level for a long time. Now I'm retired and enjoy the luxury of reflection, from which this Hub springs. Milton's "Paradise Lost", for example, has been described as a magnificent "failed poem" because its 12,000 lines do NOT "justify the ways of God to men." The primary reason for that failure is that it does not ACCOUNT for Evil as a function of God.

You point out that the Bible does NOT state that God created Evil. Quite correct. I'm holding up that massive issue more as a function of logic than as something sanctified by holy writ. If one asserts--and Christian definitions of God absolutely do so--that God is the creator of all things and has foreknowledge of all occurrences, then how do we ACCOUNT for Evil? In fact, I'll revise my original proposition. I won't say that God actively created Evil, but that Evil certainly exists in this universe of the God of Love, and since he created All and has absolute knowledge of all things, EVIL must be accounted for.

I posed the question of this Hub not to pursue an agenda of my own. I am not a Christian Believer, but that's beside the point. The issue itself is fascinating and stimulating to get close to., regardless of the nature of one's relationship (or lack of it) with God.


MrMaranatha profile image

MrMaranatha 4 years ago from Somewhere in the third world.

Yes sir... I understand where you are coming from... My point of reference however is a little different than many... I acknowledge the fact that God has always been. And that God Separates or Divides things. Matter itself may have been one of the first things that God Separated or Divided from Himself... Evil however seems to exist where ever God and God's rules are Pushed Away... So Might we say that God is Good... and everything that is not of God.. .is evil? God is Light... the further you get from that light... the farther you go into Darkness. Although the great minds of old were probably allot smarter than you or I ever will be... We have the benefit of reading their thoughts.. and looking at them... deciding to receive those things that had merit.. and discard the things that we find less than acceptable. So If I read of Augustine... or any one of the others... if I find something that I can relate to... I take it in... But if they seem to be talking in abstracts... trying their best to grasp and understand the Uncharted Riches of the Creator of Universe and Universes... I must give them the benefit of the doubt in that they were trying to understand a being that is far more Limitless than the words they possessed could possibly begin to express.

Moonfroth: You know my dad liked to whittle on wood... he made a few works of art... and allot of little chips in the process... He Burned the Chips without a second thought.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Mr. Maranatha, Cynth, ElSed --

I'm really heartened by the TONE of this chat so far. Our views assuredly diverge, probably quite dramatically, but we have all made our points, listened to the other guy, and carried on without rancor, anger, or foaming at the mouth. Bit rushed right now--I'll return later. Thanks to you all.


MrMaranatha profile image

MrMaranatha 4 years ago from Somewhere in the third world.

By the way... In your title... you called it "The Irreparable Flaw in Christian Thought". Not a Flaw really at all... a space of information that is missing maybe.

An interesting way of looking at this issue came around tonight as I was studying Gen 1:1-13 God always divides... separates etc while he is creating... As a Christian it is pretty well accepted that we are to Separate ourselves from Sin... and it draws an interesting Parallel to consider that during the Creation God may very well have also Purified Himself. The Works of God are very much a Refining process. Would he not start within himself... before demanding the same from us? It stands to reason that he would.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

MrMiranatha & ElSeductor --

Good morning! I wonder if you two could help me with a little "kitchen business"? With every Hub I've done, I start getting "Hub Notifications" about that Hub, every time anyone posts about the new Hub. This time--nothing. The only reason I even knew that you two had posted (Cynth too, for that matter) was that I was editing the piece--and there you were! Would you mind telling me how you found out about the article? Cynth and I follow each other, so she would have been Notified in the usual way.

MrMaranatha -- I need help with your opening comment. Is not your point that some "information" is "missing", thus CREATING a "space" where that "information would normally "sit"? Could you review that opening statement, and clarify? Thanks.

Your second paragraph isolates the core problem with the concept of the Christian God. The core problem is His omniscience. The whole idea of omniscience is that He knows everything, He IS everything. He is Perfect. If, as your comment suggests, He wants or needs or decides (any verb will do) to Purify HIMSELF, then implicit in that "need" would be the implication that He was not pure in some way. Exactly WHAT way is almost irrelevant, because if he is Perfect, he cannot BY DEFINITION be deficient in any way. I think it was Augustine who complained that it was very difficult just TALKING about God, because He was Perfect, and we are not. I mean, here we are, a couple of thousand years (give or take) after the event, still blathering on about the most fundamental issues!


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

Moonfroth, go into your account settings and check to see if your notifications are turned on. Yeah, and we can't just talk about it. Everyone has to seek it. Seek it if they want it I think. If someone is jealous of another but cannot see that they are, isn't it true then that we observe the person projecting blame on to the target of their jealousy? I have seen this. They are unconscious of what is the source of their anger. If they go to the psychologist, the psychologist, hopefully, reveals this to them. To me, this is the essence of God, revealing that which is in us. When people talk about "sin" there is a rationality to sin. It isn't only that it is wrong because God said so. God wants us to KNOW SO. God wants us to know why it is wrong, not that it is wrong simply because He said so. He wants us to know Him, and we know Him when we know ourselves. Evil is unconsciousness. Evil comes from not knowing oneself. Evil is also denial. It is wrong because it either pisses on one's life or pisses on the life of another. And who delights in hurting life? The essence of hurting life and the living is sin, and it is manifest in little ways that when we follow one way or the other leads us either into hell or heaven. It is all within, all within, and deeply I think so.


MrMaranatha profile image

MrMaranatha 4 years ago from Somewhere in the third world.

I think Cynth has answered your first question already.

Gap in information: God has told us what he has told us, but that in no way implies that he has told us all of everything... or All of what we think we need to know about him. God has used the human pen if you will to tell us what he feels we need to know about himself. Men wrote down their observations and thus the Bible we hold is existent. But the Great Phylosophers of old... even some who were near the apostles themselves have taken the actual words given and then stretched the meanings toward ends that allow them to scratch the itch of understanding God. Maybe in some ways they have touched the surface of a few attributes of a God that is virtually impossible to fathom But they will never manage to put him in a box with the words of the Bible... They only prove their own inadequacy to understand the Omnipotent and Omnipresent + 4 or 5 more 10 dollar words that means God is Bigger than we can ever comprehend.

The knowledge is missing... its never been told.Man is trying to fill in the blanks from his ignorance, from what he knows of Science and any other source that might somehow seem to fit.

Interesting verse this one: Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

In this verse I see that "That which may be known"..."God hath shown"

which caries allot of weight in saying God has not told us everything.

In My Opinion: This world is really like a Process to refine a substance... like when I prospected for Gold in my early years... It took allot of work to get rid of tons of overburden just to find a few little pieces of something that had value.

Faith seems to be the Gold that God is refining.

And it is found in only one place... Growing in the Hearts of Believers.


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within," is what Jesus Christ said and taught. In His parables we know that He is speaking about the conscience of a person, for all of the parables require a quality of conscience within the reader to comprehend. When re-reading them one is taught that God looks on one's heart; so while man may escape the judgment of men, he will not escape the judgment of God. But the New Testament is a calling to be "like" Christ and that is an "inward" thing. A pedophile thinks the lack of control he feels comes from something "in born" and if he confronts that darkness in himself honestly he would see he is a man who feels very small and if he understands his psychology, he would have to confront a truth. If he went even deeper he might be frightened of what he finds. I believe when we die the emanations of our unconscious confront us, because it is what is within us we carry after this life. Some people think that if they are "darker" they have more insight. Today it is even fashionable. But this is a lie. The pervert and the prude, as Freud noted, are the same. That being said, it is not possible to look at one's entire true self. Most people cannot do it. But if they are capable of being "the least" they will try to do their very best to correct themselves, so and then the meaning of Christ's death on the cross takes on a deep and personal meaning. "Take my yolk upon thee, it is easy" as Christ said. It is as God revealing to us our own helplessness at being good. It is such a miracle of consciousness, really, that death on the cross I mean. And God's "choice" to use the cross, with Himself on it, is magnificent in itself. LIke a check mate in chess. The cross was known long before Jesus Christ as representing "wholeness" and "completeness," yet God puts Himself on it and is saying, "Except through me." And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. John 3:3

We are spiritual beings first, not second. Man could not come to know God unless he fell. He had to fall, and life's journey is our way back. Think about it: Up until the fall did man know God? Did Adam and Eve love God, or did they just take for granted all the bounty before them? They had no needs and God looked upon them and realized they could not reciprocate His love. We must be able to confront our evil natures, or its propensities or latencies or tendencies and make a decision at some point and ask if we want to die to ourselves or surrender our selves to God. The cross is the answer because even if we do not understand why we do evil, Jesus Christ died to free us from our own understanding by saying if we believe than we are forgiven no matter who we are. It is pure love. Evil is the privation of good.


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 4 years ago from Wasilla, Alaska

If it was not his intention to create Evil, then he made mistake, therefore , he is fallible. Oh, Moon, dang it, I screwed up my settings and am not getting prompts. Oh, I am on the Edge with God, clinging, loving, being the Devil's advocate, all those things. God has to be a thinking person's God for me... sometimes it is very difficult, when one sees the cultish type of reactionism to thinking going on... Love yaz, lily


whomever 4 years ago

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Doesn't the above state that god created evil and meant to?

I would like to add a question: If god did create evil, then he purposely created the devil to tempt people so they could have freewill…. but if he purposely created the devil for that reason…. didn’t god take away the devil's choice of freewill when he made him for that particular purpose?


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

LILLIAN --

We've been "cyber-buddies" for --Good Grief!--only ten months, but I feel I know you better than lots of people I've known for ten years. So I'm nor surprised that you are a /questioning/ rather than an automaton Christian,. These big questions will NOT go away by announcing that God is good, God is love, God is free of error and . . .that's it! Faith is one thing; stupidity is another. And I would suggest that deflecting rather than facing the Evil question is a great example of the latter. Thanks for your comment.

WHOMEVER --

THANK YOU, Sir! I was not even aware of the quote from Isaiah, which is pure gold. I'm neither a theologian nor a Bible scholar, but the cosmological and moral/ethical issues that have plagued Christianity for centuries continue to fascinate me. Are you familiar with the Poetry and Meditations of John Donne, the 17th -century English poet? If not, I've got a feeling you'd really enjoy his work. Thanks again for dropping by.


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

That is a great quote. The devil is an agent for God since he cannot do anything without God's nod (as in "Job"). Your comment Moon that "faith is one thing; stupidity is another" though is an unfair judgment, as though the whole depth of theological ideas can be contained in a hub! Yadee dahdee da.


moonfroth 4 years ago

Drat! As soon as I hit "Post" I said to myself a) that's not what you meant Moon--too extrem, and b) you're gonna hear from Cynth on this one! Guilty as charged--my apologies. More later. . . .


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 4 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

I believe that he may be omiscient, but that he didn't create evil...he allowed it to exist when he gave humans, or gifted humans actually, with a

free-will. By free will we were allowed to rule over ourselves and if we were perfectly good, then no free will would be involved. In other words, we'd be robots.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 4 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Oops, I mean omnipotent. Got my omnis messed.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Paddy, I think your comment does a great job of squeezing the central problem into a few words! BY DEFINITION, God is omnipotent (all-powerful. no one is stronger than God); BY DEFINITION, God is omniscient (all-knowing. God has full and complete knowledge of everything in the universe, past, present, and future; BY DEFINITION God is all-pure, incapable of error. Given all of that, God "owns" Evil, God created Evil, along with everything else in the universe. I think it is reasonable to ask theologians to account for the fact that this all-pure, all-good Being created Evil. He then put Adam and Eve in Eden and LIED to them. He told them about the wonderful life they would lead--he did NOT tell them they were doomed to fail--which he knew, because he knows everything. How can there be any uncertainty when you are talking about a Being who is the ultimate Certainty? And the free will argument is all very well if you CONFINE it to Man's limited moral universe, but when you introduce God, that "tidiness" dissolves. In fact, it becomes boring as dirt. I'm not being either glib or disrespectful. I'm pretty sure I'm being fair and sensible. I'd be interested in what YOU think! Even if you strongly disagree, you must admit that the quandary itself is fascinating. no?


cynthtggt profile image

cynthtggt 4 years ago from New York, NY

He didn't lie to Adam and Eve, He gave them His wisdom. God is just, He is not moral. You are arguing "morality." There is a duality in all of us that needs to be arrested. We do evil out of conflict with what we know is good because of our own pride and desires. We do not His will but our own. When God imparted His wisdom to man, it came also with what I am sure He intended as total surrender to Him. Adam and Eve did not reciprocate His love of them when in the garden. Now, with evil, man looks to God for deliverance. How come you don't love me, God asks? Could he have asked that question to Adam and Eve in the garden when all was perfect and He was an omnipotent being, and could Adam and Eve be conscious of their lack of love of Him without evil? Absolutely not. How could one know light without darkness? Could we conceive of night if we knew only the day? Could we know God's love for us without knowing evil? The plan is utterly perfect and its calling is to the individual. So it is GOOD and all-pure, and made most perfect by the cross. I believe God is well aware how difficult it is here, and if He appears "immoral" to make a point for the greater good, so be it. Life is short and what follows is something to be refined for.


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 4 years ago from Wasilla, Alaska

Moon, I just saw a special about people who believe they've been to heaven.. it was quite compelling. I tell you what, if they have Amway salesmen there, I won't go!

I'll mention that this 4 year old kid saw an angel without a halo(Satan).

I worship Jesus and God who bear little resemblance to some psychotic fella running around telling stories way back when.

My present relationship is so personal, that it's hard to describe. Perhaps God is some super intelligence , or some omnicent good fella.

Some Alien. Some integral power playing out in our minds, Nevertheless, he has saved my life scores of times, is learned, humorous, compassionate and always present.

Yes, I believe God created evil... perhaps not to cause us harm, but to chisel our soul... It's just one more dichotomy about God. Love yaz, lily


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 4 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Moon,

By giving us a free will he gave us the ability to choose. Choice, you'll probably agree, is something that slaves didn't have throughout history. In an essence he let us be more like him, he let us make our own choices, chart the course of our own destiny, but ultimately he also wants us to choose him. He wants us to be with him almost side by side like the angels are. I believe angels also have a choice, and usually being perfect, they chose him. That is until satan, who was an arch angel, felt like putting himself above God and thus, became evil. I really don't know how everything unfolds, but I do know there's a heaven and ultimately it's up to us to make it there. We have to make that choice, as free beings. Our we can choose satan who is forever struggling for power. It's a mystery even to me, but I still believe God to be pure in every sense.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 4 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

sorry I meant in essense.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 4 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

We can know God's love for us by knowing love. If you know darkness there's no guarantee you'll see the light.Ultimately to choose love is to know God's love because God is love and nothing contrary. Everything contrary to love is not of God.


Castlepaloma profile image

Castlepaloma 4 years ago from Saskatchewan, Canada

Who is the real God, is the real question

Let the real God fight it out amoung the other 10,000 Gods and let me who wins. Then LETS ask the real God who made Evil.

Stand back give them some room, find who loves you the best.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 4 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Great idea Castle. The whole business is rather wearing, because no one has ever had contact with this Being, so ALL the arguments are based on belief or strong lack thereof (which is a kind f belief in its own right). The argument can never be resolved, but it 's been such a fascinating topic -- we just can't leave it alone. And thanks for the fan mail.


Castlepaloma profile image

Castlepaloma 4 years ago from Saskatchewan, Canada

Every time I have a scab I would always pick it before it heals up. I do it without thinking and it leaves massive scars.

Next, I'm going to try hit on the head lessons, because I keep dating hard Christian women.

Well, at least, we can laugh about it all


parrster profile image

parrster 3 years ago from Oz

Hi Moonfroth, great questions you raise. I will keep my answer as concise.

If we interpret evil as 'opposition to the will of God', then, no, God did not create evil. It is illogical for God to will to create that which is in opposition to his will.

Rather, evil must be understood as Gods antithesis. Gods will is holy (because he is God), any will opposed to his is therefore not holy [evil] (because it is not of God).

In creating beings with free-will, the potential for evil came into existence. Not because it was created, but because God has a will.

An analogy might be a parent and child. The parent has a will for the child, the child chooses to ignore the will of the parent. We would agree that the child has been naughty. Did the parent create their naughtiness?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

Hi Moonfroth, folks. I am reading, but not commenting right now.... too busy building a compost toilet for friends. I mean..... this crappy job is far too important to waste time on god....He can wait!


moonfroth 3 years ago

Now this has to be a first--toilets before God?! He is going to take serious issue with your priorities. Checked the sky since you wrote that? Thunderbolts coming your way? No? Keep your eyes open Jonny. . . .


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Parrster, I took the liberty of recommending your site to another Hubber, Cynthia Taggert (cynthtggt.hubpages.com). She is an excellent writer and clear thinker on these deep matters. I think you two would enjoy exchanging views.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Just my two cents (spend them wisely):

Both evil and good are in the eye of the beholder. That's it.

Witches were once thought so evil that we burned them at the stake. Now, hoity toity people consult "good" witches for dating advice. Harumph.

When fire burns down a house and kills people, is it evil? When it warms us and cooks our dinners is it good?


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Austin -- thanks for the comment. Neither of us can get too far with thumbnails on a topic of THIS magnitude, but with that caveat in front of us, I would offer two responses to your points. First, we cannot--it's just dumb (as you well know)-- assign human motive and intent to inanimate objects. A fire is not evil or good--it's a fire, folks, and anthropomorphizing it from now to Sunday will never make it anything but a fire. Second, there ARE absolutes in the moral mapping of being human. For example, let's try this proposition:

"It fills me with joy and happiness when I am raping five-year-old children then slowly skinning them alive then eating their flesh while they're still screaming"

My point is that we would regard ANYone who genuinely agreed with that statement as a monster for whom there would be no language, someone who had stepped outside the human race entirely. I doubt that even Caligula or Hitler would agree with that statement.

All I'm expressing here is disagreement with your statement that assigning Good or Evil to actions is relative. I'm suggesting that we CAN assign certain absolute values and I would go further--we do NOT need a higher authority to make those judgments. But now I'm getting waaaaay out there and into more Hubs!!


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

In my opinion, anyone that needs a higher authority to tell them to be good is totally missing the point of being a human.

Babies are born neutral (as far as we know). They must learn from others in order to be good or bad.

Does your quote apply to all animals, or just to human children?

Cannibals might think this is acceptable behavior. ie: they would not think of it as 'evil'.

It's a judgement call whether a thing/person/concept is 'evil' or 'good'. In other words, it's always someone's opinion.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

We have a God and we have a ton of rules because we can sometimes act like animals.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

In other words a higher power is helping us evolve.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Peppermint Paddy - You are apparently God's puppet. There is only one rule - the Golden Rule. Everything else is superfluous.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

hmm. Not necessarily. Evil is an abstraction, which we learn--as Austin points out. We are surely born neutral--babies know nothing of "original sin". To survive, societies develop rules--the ten commandments are pretty good ones-- to ensure people can get along and members of the society can grow and evolve. I have never heard of a society that would sanction the torturing of children. Even a particularly nasty society that ate human being would gain nothing by torturing their most helpless "meat" , As for Paddy's proposition that we have "a ton of rules because we sometimes behave like animals' hmm again. Surely animals are amoral, no? WE may characterize a wolf ripping into a deer as "vicious", but to the wolf it's just having dinner. The fact that the dinner is reluctant to adopt that role means that the predator has to chase it, cripple it, strangle it, and tear it apart. That's simply dinner--WE call it "nasty" , not the wolves.

And Austin--I'm an atheist, BTW--is awareness of Evil or a defining of Evil REALLY a matter of "opinion"? Hitler ordered the slaughter of millions of Jews. Calling that hideous, ghastly, and Evil would be the moral judgment of 99.9% of people on this planet. Would you be prepared to say the .1% who found his actions to be "good" as entitled to that opinion, and would you go further and say that that opinion was as "good" as those who found it hideous? Norice I'm throwing all this stuff iut there as QUESTIONS, because these matters are rightly the subjects of fierce debate, and I thinthat debate is critical to the depth of our humanity. I don't have tidy answers, but I will certainly say that anyone who found my ghastly fantasy (see my last post) made them feel good all over and they would eagerly perform such acts, to be Evil. And no, their "opinion" would not be equal to those who would be filled with horror.

Footnote. I said that I was an atheist. I also abide by most Christian values, which I find compassionate and good. I do not, however, see any need whatever to posit a Creator or A redeemer from above. I think that human societies are abundantly capable of loving and being loved, of treating their fellow humans with warmth and com[passion, and of generally conducting their lives joyously, decently, and respectfully--without receiving those values from a God to whom they are responsible.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Austinstar...God doesn't have puppets, this world does. God frees us from the slavery we live in.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Moonfroth, I'm sure you'd agree that animals often do things that we prohibit human beings from doing.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Paddy --

Totally agree--but we do so with OUR golden rule in mind--"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" We watch a wolf ripping its dinner to shreds and we react with horror because a civilized society absolutely prohibits that kind of behaviour, but in making that judgment we are imposing OUR values on the wolf. There is no REASON for a human being to behave that way. but if a wolf did not "behave" that way, he would starve and die. We even try to distance ourselves from this kind of unpleasantness by sanctioning language that makes us seem 'pure" and animals "bad'. We say things like, "he's such an animal" and "don't be a beast" and "he just wolfs his food down" and "he's a vulture!" None of these language choices is suggesting "goodness" Animals also have sex whenever and wherever they please, fart at will, lick parts of their bodies that we think disgusting, etc. etc. The animals doing these things have no sense whatever that they're doing something wrong. They aren't. We impose all of these values onto them, because WE think they're wrong.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

True, we have to be careful of insulting animals. But to behave like them is to devolve. Humans were born with the gift to know better and a lot of that came through evolution. We aren't killing people in order to become king or queen, for example. Perhaps a bad example because that still goes on (though it feeds into my idea of being devolved). However, not all animals have abhorrent behavior. Not sure a butterfly or bird did anything that would give us pause. Dolphins are fabulous creatures and arguable as intelligent.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

PADDY -- you--"Not all animals have abhorrent behavior"

My counter is that there are NO "abhorrent" behaviors among animals EVER ; rather, they use whatever equipment they have to survive , and if we don't like the way they do it, we call it abhorent, Pirhana fish in a feeding frenzy, a crocodile eating a Wildebeest calf, etc.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Paddy - "God doesn't have puppets". Since when? According to your ancient book, God create nothing but puppets and called them humans with "free will". The catch is that they must never disobey their 'master'.

Ooops, excuse me, not puppets - slaves! To bow down to the master or be punished (burn in hell).

I was at the rodeo last night and they still start the darn thing off with communal prayer. Prayer "in his name" so that the cowboys won't get injured.

Hell, if they really wanted the cowboys to be safe, they wouldn't ride the dang bulls in the first place!

No, I wasn't there for the animal torture. I was there to see the band.

When you open your eyes to the truth of "worshipping your god", you will see how ridiculous it is.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

It's not a matter of being punished, Austin. I think most people get the impression that God is punishing them when they disobey them...no. It's an invitation into heaven. They won't be able to stand heaven and all its light if they don't have any in them. That's why we have a choice to choose the devil and his fallen angels or heaven. If they follow the devil its very easy to live in his darkness because they are dark...as beings. It won't be as happy as heaven but they made their choice to be puppets/slaves to the kings of this world...fallen angels.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Don't you think it would have been more correct to have just created a flawless heaven in the first place? Why create evil?

Like the hub says, God created evil. Why do you worship the deity that allows babies to be thrown into trash cans? The one that created Satan? The one that stipulated and created evil?

What kind of thought pattern creates war and poverty and strife? And yet, "He loves us"?

Don't invite me over to your home (heaven) and expect me to ignore your devil son and all of the chaos you have created.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

AUSTIN --what you say is absolutely accurate, for a non-Believer, and PADDY-- what you say is absolutely accurate for a Believer. The "divider" between the two positions is called Faith--Believers cannot produce Proof of God's existence, because no on in the roughly 2299 years of formal Christianity has ever seen Him . In that sense, He is a phantom, existing as a living force in the universe only in the minds and (very often) passionate faith of Believers. Paddy, you put the case very well--and what rational human being would make a conscious, clear decision to opt for an eternity of ghastly pain and torture in an unspeakable Hell of fire and sulphur if he/she had the opportunity to choose a place of light and song and beauty and joy, living in the loving arms of a compassionate Father?Surely the answer would have to be-NO ONE. But the "decision" cannot be made on the basis of rationality, only on Faith.

And if a person does not have that faith, they also do not believe in the existence of a literal Hell, so they aren't really "choosing" to live for all eternity in a ghastly Hell (that would be dumb). They aren't choosing anything. Neither exists at.

Milton said that his grand purpose in writing "Paradise Lost" (second longest poem in the English Language. Browning's "The Ring and the Book" is the longest) was to "justify the ways of God to Men. " It has been called the longest FAILED poem in the history of poetry, in any language, because after 12,000 lines of soaring, magnificent poetry, he does not meet his goal.

I suppose that any discussion of good and evil--certainly this little we're having here--has a huge amount to do with justifying the ways of God to men. We will NOT resolve the debate, but seems to me that intelligent people will explore and examine and demand a process of "reasoning" before arriving at a position of peace about their spiritual lives. My atheism is not an idle stance based on the simple fact that no one in history has ever had a coffee with God. I've read the Bible cover-to-cover (and certain Books of the Bible many times), I've read "Paradise Lost" twice, etc. etc. What I'm saying is that a non-believer can walk a road every bit as twisty as a Believer, but at the end of te day bot groups will STILL be on that road, looking at another twist ahead.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Moonfroth, I totally respect your belief in atheism. I'm just stating my point of view. Paradise Lost was a great poem, and since Milton fails to justify the ways of God, that's just proof of the limitation of us humans. Personally, I try to stray away from following the belief system of a writer. It's amazing how they can produce religions themselves.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

sorry "that just proves the limitations of us humans."


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Paddy, you said, "Personally, I try to stray away from following the belief system of a writer."

But isn't that exactly what you are doing?

Or are you one of those people who think the bible and all of its translations were literally written by the hand of god?


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

Paddy, I have been following occasionally, without comment.

Now I must point out one of what I perceive to be "flaws." You use the expression "believe in," in relation to atheism, as though atheism is another religion.

"Believe in" is a christian expression, particularly of the evangelical, free-church variety. You don't hear it used in other religions. Why? Because, I suggest, christianity has woven this tapestry of do's and don't's; what will happen IF! I do this or that; what "God" can do for use if we are obedient; the fears of disobedience; the nature and attributes of this theoretical, disciplinarian god; etc. etc. The christian mind cannot approach reality without such an esoteric mind-set. You have to go beyond the real in order to even approach the christian point of view.

For me, with an atheist disposition, (carefully using the adjective here, not the noun), I don't have to "believe in" atheism, because it's only a way of thinking. It's a basis on which to consider and compare new information as it comes into my mind.

By the way, my atheism, at this time, only applies to that judgmental god that the christian and muslim follower takes as his/her basis for belief. Such a "god" is, to my way of thinking, in no way related to the possibility of some kind of entity, force, consciousness that MIGHT have conceived, designed and built this finite universe that we enjoy.

I will leave my comment here, and let you, Moonfroth, Austinstar and others reply if you desire.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 3 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Thanks for the comment Jonny. PADDY -- all Jonny is saying, all I'm saying, and at least in large part, all Austin is saying, is that we can respect and engage in dialogue with Believers or Christians (note Jonny's important caution about using the two words) who are genuinely open to debate. If not, I for one respect your right to your beliefs--that goes without saying, I hope--but if the fallback is always FAITH alone, then "discussion" just becomes a misnomer. Nothing at all would be under discussion, and the whole see-saw of "i have faith", "I do not have faith" simply becomes a waste of time. St. Augustine, in the voluminous tome THE CITY OF GOD (410 ad)--which runs to over 800 pages in standard formats--frequently agonized over the parameters of his own deep faith, and challenged in a variety of ways, the efficacy of God. To read some of that amazing book is to share in the reasoning faith of an extraordinary theologian and MAN. It is a delight to visit, because there, whatever your spiritual inclinations, you know you're in the presence of a questioning mind that demands to know WHY. That's what I ask of fellow thinkers when turning to these massive questions.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

I am at a loss to understand the apparent infinite question of 'Why'. Why are we here? Why were we created? Why do we have to be Christians in order to enter heaven? Why, why, why?

People label me as an atheist, but like johnny, I simply dis-believe in the God theories. I simply say that I 'believe' in the thing that created God.

As moonfroth so eloquently puts it, this religion thing boils down to 'faith'. Either you have it or you don't. I don't, so there is room for argument.

I'm going out on a limb here and stating that I understand infinity. The infinite universe, the infinite state of matter and energy. Once you understand infinity, there is only one thing to do - enjoy it!


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Austin-

The bible is commonly mistaken for a book. It isn't. It's a library of collected works which is why from time to time there may be an inconsistency or two. As such, sometimes it makes sense to research that which a person finds wise and use that. All the works were written by people who are spiritually inspired. Ron L. Hubbard, in contast, most likely wasn't spiritually inspired.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Ah, pick and choose Christianity. I'm familiar with the concept. Yes, it is a collection of books.

People being spiritually inspired? By Whom?


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Jonny,

Though I esteem the evangelical Christians more and more, I have to point out that I'm a Catholic. And as such, have to point out that Christianity is divided into many religions who don't hold the same beliefs...except that Jesus is God. I believe that Christianity is greatly misunderstood even among Christians. While some Christians believe in a punishing God with an ever wagging finger, I believe the rules are simply made to make our lives easier. If you think about it, there are negative consequences that come from as you say "disobeying" the rules. That's the whole point...to make our lives happier. And I totally, absolutely respect your belief as an atheist. Atheists have a lot to add to arguments that sometimes religious people miss. Plus atheists keep religious people in line which is a good thing.


PeppermintPaddy profile image

PeppermintPaddy 3 years ago from The vast expanse of creative space (my brain)

Moonfroth,

I have no other intention than to engage in a debate. I respect all your opinions and I'm not trying to change yours...just debating.

Austin-

God and his angels.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

There's the rub. I don't believe in any of the above so they can hardly be inspiring to me.

The words can inspire me. But I have never read anything in the bible that indicates it is true or relevant to faith/belief and the existence of God.

Seriously, you say that "Jesus is God". To me that means that this is a being or entity so twisted as to split itself into halves or threes (the trinity) and have part of itself "experience life on earth to include torture and death" in order to save itself from itself.

Whatever does that even mean?

I cannot recall a single biblical event that is related in the bible that doesn't have to do with death, war, famine, floods, destruction, punishment and other 'evil' deeds. It's a full litany of man's inhumanity to man.

As a child, I was so frightened of the great and powerful god, that I cried a lot. Just from fear. And no, it wasn't the doings of a 'fire and brimstone' church leader. My fear came directly from reading the bible.

I studied other religions of the world just to find something I could put some faith into and not be so deathly afraid of this horrid god.

I was pondering this one day and realized that there is no god! You cannot imagine the relief I felt that day. It's the only thing that makes sense.


savvydating profile image

savvydating 3 years ago

Isaiah 45:5 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:11 ... and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

My take? God created all possibility. We are not automatons. We are free to choose how we want to live. We are created in His image, which has all possibilities, but which chooses love. Thus, we carry power to create (our will), like God, but with a small "g." Personally, I like having free will. It's the ultimate freedom. If I screw up, I don't blame God; I blame me. If someone else screws up, I blame that person for choosing evil; for making the decision to hurt himself and others.


AudreyHowitt profile image

AudreyHowitt 3 years ago from California

Firs,t I believe that you have to accept the notion of God for this argument to make sense. Second, (and I am open to debate on this issue) God would have to be a God outside of us mere humans.

That being said--maybe we can approach the issue this way. Animals all have souls --all animals. Souls are the God within. Our connection to other souls is the God without. Having soul does not make one immune to creating evil--

I recognize that my theory requires a hefty premise, but then so does yours---

Pax


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Einstein said, “Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.”

Substitute a word of your choosing for the word 'energy' and the postulate still rings true, thus:

“God (souls, matter, life, evil...) cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.”

Both beauty and evil are in the eye of the beholder. The universe is the infinite total of matter + 'energy'. Both are infinite. There is no beginning (what you think of as a 'beginning' is only a marker point - there is always something before it and something after it) and there is no end (for the same reason).

If all matter were condensed into the singularity (big bang), then it has done so over and over and over again and it will continue to expand and contract (if that is, in fact, what it is doing) infinitely.

If you want to call the infinite universe, "God", for lack of a better term, then do so. But evil is only a concept and opinion. It is not matter or 'energy', although some people like to think that it is energy.

We can see, hear, touch, feel and taste matter. But 'energy' is what holds it all together. It is gravity, it is kinetic, it is electricity, it is measurable, although not quantifiable (because it is infinite).

If you see "God" as some sort of energy controlling the matter, it might make sense, but this "God" would not have human (or animal) emotions or judgements. It would simply be more akin to glue.

Where the Biblical God came from is anyone's guess.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 3 years ago from Tasmania

"Where the Biblical God came from is anyone's guess."

In my understanding, "it" came from the human desire to understand what we see, hear, smell, taste and touch and how all these senses connect with what is unseen, un-sensed, immeasurable. Hence, the metaphor is used extensively to explain the in-explicable.

Beyond this desire, of course, is also the yearning to control and conquer for the sake of survival. This desire requires no understanding, it's automatic, instinctive for our species.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Yes, Jonny, I think that sums it up nicely.


lilyfly profile image

lilyfly 2 years ago from Wasilla, Alaska

Moon, I'm going thru Canada soon... perhaps we could meet for a cup of coffee


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 2 years ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Marvelous! Define "soon"--even ballpark dates. You'll be driving S on BC Hwy 97, right thru my hometown, Lac la Hache, a nothing town about 45 mins S of Williams Lake. In Lac la Hache, on your LEFT, just past the Community Centre, you'll see THE HUNGRY BEAR cafe (huge parking lot). Go there. And starve yourself prior to arriving--the food is good and the portions are ridiculously large. Great homemade pies, as well.

Send me an email (moonfroth@gmail.com) with YOUR current email. I'll send you my phone number. If you or someone in your travelling party has a cell phone, send me that number too. This is exciting! To actually MEET.

I've had a couple of poems published recently, both in Anthologies--one, "Stopping Trains" -- resplendent with four critical typos (it is for to kill)-- in THE POETIC BOND III (July '13), and the other, "A Dusty Road" in BRIDGE OF FATES (May '14). Both available on Amazon.

Please get your tentative itinerary and your email address to me SOONEST. I don't want to miss you. Oh! I'm going to be leaving here for Vancouver on June 17 and I'll be gone for a couple of weeks.

Luv 'n Cusses

Moon

Here are the two poems. Save some $$ --

A Dusty Road

I met a wise man on a dusty road.

I asked if he knew of a better place,

a place where

wonder

would be common as old jewelry

hidden in a drawer

dark,

potent with beauty.

He smiled within his walk,

a steady pace

that declared

no single place was enough,

that movement alone

produced adventure

and truth.

And how will you behave there

if I give it you,

a gift born of wonder itself?

I was not ready for this question,

I had expected another.

If you know not what to do

at the

destination, he smiled

why not excel

in the wonder of walking?

My feet are magic enough—

for thousands of miles

they have carried me

from nowhere to

somewhere.

As I go, I look

for moments of brightness

in the potent dark.

The trick is to keep

the dust

swirling

behind you.

© clark cook

STOPPING TRAINS

The prairie yawned endless beige

undulating

soundless

entire his

only world,

consuming his tiny town,

a dot in the sea of whispering wheat.

Every day

the train

puffing snorting rumbling,

the earth a wave of sound

in his feet

the smoke trailing,

black cinders spewing ,

slicing wheels showering sparks,

rush of wild hot air blazing his face

loooong eerie wail

shuddering the sagging station

clackety clack, clackety clack, clackety clack

the caboose telescoping--

then gone.

It never stopped.

He stood in the wind-wash

and the roar

and willed the train to stop--

screwed his eyes tight and willed it to stop.

In his heart he knew

if he could make it stop

magical tigers and gossamer faeries

satin magicians and endless rivers of chocolate

would flow from its bright doors

and gloss the sameness forever.

It never stopped.

* * * * *

Now he is a man.

The whispering prairie still enfolds the tiny town

and a purring silver train whisks past

every day

so silently

most people

don''t even notice him

standing in the shadow of the collapsed station,

eyes screwed tightly

shut.


manatita44 profile image

manatita44 2 years ago from london

Well, Bro. See the storm you caused? even here.

I know of a man of God who is respected and was invited to speak at the Parliament of World Religions. He simply folded his hands and prayed in Silence. Perhaps therein lies the answer. Prayer and inner experience.

I suspect you know all this. Nice article. Higher blessings.


moon 2 years ago

Thank you manatita. I like the man of Gd's solution. That's probably why i find the non sequiter solutions of Zen so attractive. hope to see you again.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 2 years ago from Tasmania

Good to see you both on line. Greetings Moonfroth, Salama Manatita.


moonfroth 2 years ago

Jonny -- and back to you, my good friend. I hope you have been well?


manatita44 profile image

manatita44 2 years ago from london

Thanks Jonny. Namaste!

Nice one Moon.


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 2 years ago from Tasmania

Thanks Moonfroth. Yes life is pretty good right now. The past couple of years have been eventful (sister passing, then I visited Spain, UK and South India en route for her funeral), but that journey had lots of positive outcomes.

My big interest currently is the use of that aquatic fern, Azolla, and continue to research it's application in grey water treatment.

Gradually building friendships too..... there is always new experience and learning to be had, especially as we get into our 8th decade.


kevin murphy-87 profile image

kevin murphy-87 2 years ago from Ireland

Sorry but i did'nt read any comments. I believe in God but not in the way that most religions would. We will never truly understand it so why worry about it? Evil is not just a thing that exists, we as humans can commit evil deeds here on earth and its my personal belief that when you die your soul (in the after life) has to exist with the knowledge of what you done during your life here and in a sense you create your own "hell" so to speak in the afterlife, existing with the regret of whatever it was. Am i crazy? love your hubs btw!


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 2 years ago from Tasmania

Kevin, in my opinion.... you are not crazy at all!!! It's good to hear your passionate views.

For me, there is no convenient method of passing off my personal responsibilities to the shoulders of another, whether that be my Pastor, my Jesus, My God, or any other "by Proxy" individual. It ALL is up to me, succeed or fail, like it or lump it.

Yes, having religious beliefs or faith can help a person through troubled times and guide him/her, with a steadying hand, to go and do the right thing by the person whom we have wronged. Yet I cannot say, "Jesus, please forgive me," and leave it at that. Personal onus cannot be shrugged off that easily.

The fruits, I believe, bear me out in this opinion. When I do carry out my duty in relation to others, then I can come away from it with a genuine, deep, warm feeling of completeness, joining with the world in love. On the other hand, if I shirk my duty, try to push the facts under the carpet, walk away from what I really should do, then that will continue to fester under the carpet and, eventually, leave a pretty nasty smell in the continuum of my life. And the other person involved has not been treated as they deserve.

All this is practical stuff, not in any way a "spiritual" or "religious" matter. It's the basis of successful living. IMHO


kevin murphy-87 profile image

kevin murphy-87 2 years ago from Ireland

wow thanks jonny. I definitely agree!


Margaret Ann Waddicor 22 months ago

Good and evil do not exist, and if they do they are the two sides of the same coin, of the same person. God cannot exist without a devil, so one has to think up these opposites to achieve - the whole. Personally I don't believe in anything superstitous like gods and angels, devils and demons, trolls and fairies they are all of the same source, the human mind and its propensity to follow its imagination into the realms of

the unknown, we are inspired by the unknown, of we knew life would probably be boring, or who knows! What is IS, and that's enough for me.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 22 months ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

Thanks for your comment Ann. And thank you doubly for your extensive browse thru my writing! I don't post on HP any more, or pa much attention to t at all, so t was quite delightful to have this flurry of interest from you......


jonnycomelately profile image

jonnycomelately 22 months ago from Tasmania

And it's good to see you, Moonfroth. Wishing you well.

This Hub that you started so long ago is still so, so valid in what you wrote. We have not moved on in regard to the argument with "Believers," yet you and I can rest in the certainty of not being eternally evil. Not sure that a bit of bad-i-ness wouldn't spruce up our lives now and then, but then someone has to be an evil, twisted mind, so it might as well be me. (Wink wink)


Melia 21 months ago

You're a real deep thenikr. Thanks for sharing.


wordswithlove profile image

wordswithlove 20 months ago from Pennsylvania, USA

The answer to your question, moonfroth? :) Centuries have passed and hundreds more will, and the answer will always simply remain as inconclusive as ever. It is a fundamental flaw, precisely.


moonfroth profile image

moonfroth 20 months ago from Rural BC (Canada) & N of Puerto Vallarta (Mexico) Author

wordswithlove --

Thanks very much for your post. And you're absolutely right--this issue, and so many like it, will never be "resolved". But the issues are fascinating, and we will keep talking about them, come what may!

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