God is NOT Love

Introduction

One of the famous mantra's of the gentle modern Christian is GOD IS LOVE. There are many scriptures and verses that talk of the love of God which is meant to be unconditional and absolute for all human beings. Possibly the most famous scriptures about love are found in 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, the famous love chapter. It was one of the first things from the Bible that I memorized in Sunday School. It lists the characteristics of love and one would assume that if God is love he would have these characteristics.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

So how many of these characteristics fit God and how WELL do they fit God because remember if God is Love he should not only possess these characteristics but he should be unable to be untrue to them.

Patience


Patience is a bit hard to judge when it comes to the Biblical God. On the one hand he seems more than willing to give himself all the time in the world to sort things out. For instance he waits several thousand years before sending the Messiah but wastes not even a single day before casting out Adam and Eve from the Garden. This is Adam and Eve's first mistake, in fact it's the first mistake in human history, but the God of the Bible reacts not with patience, but with haste. Although no specific time frame is put between the Fall and the Curse God puts on them they occur within the same conversation within the same chapter (Chapter 2) of Genesis.

What about the story of the Exodus. Some might be inclined to call God patient here as he does not immediately smite the Egyptians but instead attempts to wear them down with ten plagues. However the plagues themselves are the wrath of God are they not? And each of them is horrific in it's own right. Could God not have been patient, could he not have waited for reason to persuade the Pharaoh or perhaps waited for Pharaoh to hire workers to replace the Hebrew slaves?

What of Lot's wife who is immediately turned into a pillar of salt for the act of merely looking back on Sodom and Gomorrah? Why was patience not show with her? While it is true that God does show patience from time to time in the Bible (God is arguably patient with the city of Nineveh) he most certainly is not ALWAYS patient. In fact he is vengeful and quick to anger

Kindness

Is God kind? To some people God certainly seems kind, he sees fit to bless some in the Bible but he also sees fit to take away. Of course in the Old Testament God is most often kind to the Israelites. His demeanor towards other tribes and nations in the area however is far from kind. The massacre of the Canaanites, ordered by Yahweh himself according to the story, shows that God can revoke his kindness to engage in petty nation building. What sort of divine cosmic being who is meant to possess kindness sends out sword wielding armies to slaughter entire nations and leave none alive?

Is it kind to slaughter innocent children in Egypt for sins that belong only to the Pharaoh? Is cursing Adam and Eve for their very first mistake a kindly thing to do? What about drowning the entire world in a flood and by entire world I mean this includes infants and small animals that have committed no wrong. God does show kindness to folks in the Bible sometime but he also commands and commits genocides and condones slavery.

God's Kindness at Work

Envy

Does an almighty God truly feel envy? When others receive praise does he feel jealous? According to the Bible not only is God subject to this petty feeling his name is JEALOUS. Indeed the God of the Bible seems woefully insecure about his stance as the Most High, so much so that worshiping other Gods is the first thing he bans in the 10 Commandments. This all points to the polytheistic roots of ancient Israel which many have done their best to blot-out but which archeology has been finding more and more out about.

Exodus 20: 5-6

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

In this verse, contained within the ten commandments, God not only proves he is envious of other gods but he further sabotages claims of his own kindness and mercy by vowing to punish children for sins they did not commit.

Boasting and Pride

Well thus far the Biblical God isn't looking very promising as a candidate for being love. The idea that God does not boast is an absurd one indeed, especially when considering God's self-aggrandizing speech to Job beginning in Job Chapter 38.

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

God goes on and on tooting his own horn essentially to prove to Job that he's the man, or deity rather. Some of the rhetorical questions God asks Job are actually quite hilarious. For instance God asks Job if he knows when the mountain goats give birth... as if such a thing is advanced knowledge that no man could possess. God takes credit for essentially everything to do with nature, beating his chest for a full two chapters of boasting.

Easily Angered

We've dealt with this one in part but it's a really easy one to defeat. As I mentioned in the Eden story God immediately punishes Adam and Eve for the mere act of eating some fruit. God also forgets that the people he's made had no idea what they were doing was wrong until after they had their eyes opened by the fruit. His anger is arguably premature. Throughout the Bible God quite quickly grows angry, though sometimes it takes a while before his wrath hits other times his wrath comes down instantly against those he doesn't like.

Keeps No Record of Wrongs

This to me is the nail in the coffin for the idea that the Biblical God embodies love as it is described in scripture. How on Earth can God be the judge of the world if he has no idea what we've done wrong? How can God punish sin, as he's meant to according to every Christian doctrine I've ever heard of, if he doesn't keep a record?

Not only does this contradict God's ability to judge but it compromises one of his most basic attributes - omniscience. How can there be anything that God doesn't know? Surely God doesn't expect us mortals to remember everything we've ever done wrong. How exactly does one end up in the Book of Life if God has no idea whether you've been naughty or nice?

Furthermore this raises some other questions about certain doctrines of modern Christian mythology. God has no reason to oppose Satan as whatever Satan did wrong isn't recorded within God. So why has God not forgiven Satan already? And what about the doctrine of original sin? How can that be passed on to future generations if God keeps no record of it?

Does Not Delight in Evil

Well I'm not sure that God delights in evil but he does spend much of the Bible committing it. He condones slavery, doesn't seem to mind stoning being a fair punishment for the simplest of things and commands or commits genocide on a regular basis. Now you can argue that God does not delight in any of these things I suppose but if he doesn't want to do them than he doesn't have to. After all he's an infinitely powerful loving God, if he wants to get something done he can get it done any way he wants to - no bloodshed required. Instead God often does come up with plans to get what he wants that involve killing and human suffering, a case could be made that he delights in evil.

If God doesn't delight in evil his "word" sure does condone and call for an awful lot of it
If God doesn't delight in evil his "word" sure does condone and call for an awful lot of it

Love Never Fails


Love never fails... but God does. The entire Bible testifies to this from page one. God's first attempt at creating men backfires on him when Adam and Eve eat the fruit. He then attempts to start over by drowning everyone but that doesn't work and in no time people are corrupt horrible sinners. We get to Jesus eventually but that fails also since most people won't accept Christ as their savior and will thus be damned. In fact I have a whole hub dedicated to how terrible of a failure the whole Jesus thing is.

Just the fact that a perfect God somehow produced an imperfect world is, in and of itself, a paradoxical failure.

Conclusion

The Bible is filled with self-contradictory verses that are a testament to its jigsaw puzzle construction over the centuries. The characteristics of this God make him bi-polar, one part mercy and two parts wrath and vengeance but in no way analogous to love. One would expect that if God were Love, or loving at all, he'd be more loving than any man. Yet what the Bible shows us is a God willing to engage in behaviors that no modern man would deem moral. To anyone reading the Bible in its entirety there can be no doubt that God is not Love.

Consistently fundamentalists and moderate Christians alike rise to the defense of the indefensible, an immoral and wicked God who was a reflection of the dark morality in the barbaric time he was conceived. The mantra God is Love is just that, a mantra, a cozy warm and fuzzy platitude of a Christianity that has (luckily) drifted far away from the barbaric self-contradictory scripture.

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Comments 141 comments

AntonOfTheNorth profile image

AntonOfTheNorth 5 years ago from The Land Up Over

A fine demonstration of why the bible should not be taken literally (and why some parts of it should simply be excised. If the Council of Nicia can do it, why can't we?)

We also enclose in a single book all theories in the study of, say, physics, but we allow the current thought to qualify or eliminate the earlier. If religion could do this, it would be more useful.

For example, I would have said the gospels of Jesus pretty much require the book of Leviticus (among others) to be eliminated outright from the 'word of god'. If the son of god says 'love one another' and an earlier profit says its okay to have slaves as long as they are from another country . . . aren't we hearing from the mouth of god that we should ignore leviticus?

cheers


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

And get rid of Deuteronomy too. What a colossal joke of a book. So unloving.

If God is Love - I've sure been looking at love the wrong way!


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 5 years ago from back in the lab again Author

@Anton

Actually Jesus made several statements which show he at least partially supported the Old Testament laws, including Leviticus (I believe one such instance is in Matthew Chapter 5, another in Mark 7:9-13 where he scolds a group for not putting their rebellious children to death)

Jesus violated Old testament laws as well, making him yet another self-contradictory character in the Bible

@Austinstar

Most Christians ignore or glance over Deuteronomy anyway, if they started removing it from Bibles I doubt many would even notice :)


AntonOfTheNorth profile image

AntonOfTheNorth 5 years ago from The Land Up Over

Contradictory? Different books? Unverified statements?

This sounds suspiciously like hearsay!! :)

Although to revert to my home position, only means the bible is wrong in a lot of places.

I happen to be quite fond of some places. 1 Corinthians 1-13. for example

I am equally fond of Shakespeare.

cheers


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 5 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Cheers for Shakespeare! He did write a few good lines, didn't he?

Cheers for Titen for writing a few more good lines!


Paladin_ profile image

Paladin_ 5 years ago from Michigan, USA

Great job, Titen! It often amuses me, but sometimes angers me, when believers insist that "God is love." Nowhere in literature or human history is there an example of a more vicious, petty and murderous megalomaniac than that which is found in the Bible.

No human examples can even come close: Not Hitler. Not Stalin. Not Tammerlane. They are rank amateurs compared to the God who will destroy almost an entire planet of living things, or condemn an entire species to an eternity in Hell if they don't love him or follow his rules.

I should also accentuate a few of the examples you provided in your hub. For example, in the case of Adam and Eve, you correctly pointed out that neither had the knowledge or wisdom to be able to make a cognizant choice -- to exercise TRUE free will -- regarding eating from the tree of knowledge.

However, I would go so far as to insist that Adam and Eve were CONDEMNED to fail by God himself, for it was he who left them ALONE in the garden with a serpent who, for some reason, was given the power of speech! After the deed was done, only then did God reappear in the garden, pretending not to be able to see Adam. What kind of snarky S.O.B. plays that sort of game?

As for Moses and Pharoah, God again demonstrated his capacity for evil, for it was he who continually hardened Pharoah's heart, guaranteeing the suffering of ten plagues on the people of Egypt, and the continued enslavement of the Israelites.

Even when Moses led the people of Israel to Mount Sinai, God was ready to kill every last one of them, simply because they had foolishly chosen to worship a golden idol they had made. Moses managed to talk him out of it, accusing him of having "evil" thoughts, and God admitted it!

This is a being that deserves contempt and condemnation, not worship. If he truly existed, I certainly wouldn't want to spend an eternity in Heaven with him!


Monica 4 years ago

1 John 4:8

8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

If someone despises God, that person doesn't know Him, and if that person doesn't know Him, he or she can't inform people about God.

Is like someone who doesn't know you telling people things about you, when you just want people to know the truth about you.

That was the first Bible verse I've ever learned about 12 years ago and is now inspiring me to learn more of my favourite verses.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 4 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Hi Monica, go look up Exodus 21, in those "inspiring" verses your loving God explains to Moses how hard people should be allowed to beat their slaves, what kinds of slaves they can keep and how to sell your daughter into permanent slavery.


Lybrah 3 years ago

If God were quick to anger, we'd all be dead right now. Don't you understand that God is sovereign, the universe is His to do as He pleases--Yes, God may have wiped out people, like the Canaanites, but didn't He give them 400 years of opportunity to turn from their sins? See Genesis 15 He did! The people of Canaan fought against the Israelites and, left unchecked, would have exterminated the nation through whom God had promised to send the Savior. He did not cruelly or hastily put a hit on the Canaanites.

I use the example of the Canaanites because you say that God is evil, that God is not love. God made us; we rebelled against Him, He allowed us to have free will (would you want someone to love you because she was under a spell or something? Or would you rather she chose to love you?), and rather than obliterate us, He sent His own son to be slaughtered by the Romans and God determined that His son's death was sufficient enough to cancel out all our sins and reconcile us to Him. It does not matter whether hanging on a cross for a few hours equals battling cancer for six months. It was God's decision!

God allows evil to happen, for without suffering, there would be no compassion. Without hate, you wouldn't know what love was.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"God allows evil to happen, for without suffering, there would be no compassion. Without hate, you wouldn't know what love was."

That's a quaint idea, nice and heart-tugging, but it doesn't really jive with the Biblical account. In the Garden of Eden there was no sin, and yet Adam and Eve knew love, and Adam knew the sadness of being alone without a companion before God made Eve. God, it seems, never intended for his creation to suffer, or he wouldn't have put them in a place that was, quite literally, paradise.

"but didn't He give them 400 years of opportunity to turn from their sins? See Genesis 15 He did!"

400 years during which God did nothing to bridge the gap himself. So rather than be the bigger man and resolve differences with the Cannannites he'd rather have them put to the sword. Also keep in mind that to God 400 years is the blink of an eye. As scripture says, "a day is unto a thousand years and a thousand years unto a day"... so the excuse that God's patience ran out after a mere four centuries seems little recompense for slaughtering men, women and sinless children wholesale.

" Don't you understand that God is sovereign, the universe is His to do as He pleases--"

I find it funny that someone can make an argument like this without seeing how evil it makes their God out to be. So God is like the player of a video-game right, and we're all his little characters to play around with, he could just blink us out of existence with a thought. Like a child torturing a small animal God is seen as merciful when he decides not to twist our heads off. There's a great episode of the Twilight Zone that's all about just such a God as you appear to be serving. The ultimate argument of Might Makes Right.

In Spider-Man it is established that with great power comes great responsibility. The responsibility to help others and to stop and prevent evil when you are able. The God of the Bible possess ALL POWER, and thus should be even more responsible, but instead the Bible depicts him slaughtering innocent children and advocating slavery. Turns out Spider-Man is more moral than God, funny that.


Lybrah 3 years ago

You keep going back to Spider-Man. But, God created all things...this including Spider-Man and/or the comic book author. So in a sense, God does know that with great power comes great responsibility. Because He is the creator of ALL things.

Like I said before, he gave us free will. But because he gave us free will, we also have responsibility. If we sin, we have to live with the consequences.

Unfortunately, in a war-like situation, there's going to be innocent casualties. Don't think for a moment God didn't receive those souls in heaven, where they probably prefer to be now.

400 years may be a blink of an eye fo God, but He knows it is a long time for us. Therefore, I think the fact that he gave them four centuries is fair enough. They were evil people!


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Yes, sin did come into the earth. Yes, there is suffering upon the earth. Satan was cast out of Heaven and is now on the earth. Satan blinds people and is able to lead them. God created us, but God gave us free will. That means we can sin. We can do anything. Well unless we are robots. But, we are not robots.

The bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam's transgression. The scriptures tell us we live in a fallen creation. When sin came into the earth, so did suffering.

It is a dilemma, like a child who has eaten too much chocolate and then his face breaks out into pimples. He gets so angry, but instead of giving up chocolate, he eats more.

This is what the world is doing. Everywhere we see pain and suffering, but instead of trying to change and ask for God to take away our sin and and appetite for it, the sin on earth gets worse and worse.

The ones who have been killed without reason, like Lybrah has said, have now escaped suffering. They are with God.

The ones who have killed the innocent, they will face God on judgement day. Then they will know what they have done.

So many blame God, but how many people have pointed their fingers at someone else, but never at themselves?


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

By the way, you probably won't believe this, but God loves you.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

I'm ecstatic that "God loves us", aren't you? Why just the other day I was thinking to myself, "Thanks invisible man in the sky for loving me to death."


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Nope, the ones that love you to death are the teenagers who are learning how to drive.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Well, at least the ones who are texting when they are driving.


Lybrah 3 years ago

@Michele Travis: I couldn't have said it better myself...you took the words right out of my mouth.


Michele Travis profile image

Michele Travis 3 years ago from U.S.A. Ohio

Lybrah you have also written some very good comments as well as hubs.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Thank you, Michele! :)


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"But because he gave us free will, we also have responsibility. If we sin, we have to live with the consequences."

Except for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by sin, such as children who get cancer and die. Seeing as how children have never sinned and all it seems stupid to suggest that sin is causing their cancer. It also seems cold for a God who could step in and cure the disease to remain in heaven doing nothing.

"They were evil people!"

Slaughtering evil people isn't morally justified. For example, many would agree that the Nazis, at least a majority of them, were evil. However going in and slaughtering every German man woman and child who called themselves a Nazi wouldn't have been morally right for a human being. God is meant to be MORE MORAL than we are, he is meant to be BETTER; slaughtering those people CANNOT be morally righteous. Keep in mind that these are peoples God wiped off the map wholesale, down the last CHILD.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Satan blinds people and is able to lead them."

And who grants Satan the continued power to do so? You see God is meant to be all powerful, Satan can't have any power without God.

"The bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam's transgression. The scriptures tell us we live in a fallen creation. When sin came into the earth, so did suffering."

So God gave Adam free will and then cursed his entire creation when Adam decided to actually USE his free will to make his own choices. What a loving and caring parent, to let sin infect his creation rather than forgive Adam and nip sin in the bud.

"It is a dilemma, like a child who has eaten too much chocolate and then his face breaks out into pimples"

Actually it's more analogous to a parent who leaves a sharp knife in plain reach of his children and then being gets angry when they touch it. God plants the tree of knowledge in the Garden and warns Adam and Eve of it but rather than being concerned for their safety he's just angry. He's not disappointed, he makes no attempt at reconciliation or teaching them why it was wrong to disobey, and his punishment is to damn all humans born of Adam and curse all of creation. Let's just say the story doesn't make God look good, especially if we're viewing him as a parent.

"They are with God."

What a comforting thought that they are now spending eternity with the monster that slaughtered them for no reason. In the case of children killed by God whose parents were deemed "wicked" and went to Hell those children are now forced to bow before God for eternity while God burns their parents in a Lake of Fire. Sounds like the kinda guy you'd want to bow down to for eternity doesn't he? =P

"Then they will know what they have done."

Will God be facing his own judgment then ;)

"So many blame God, but how many people have pointed their fingers at someone else, but never at themselves?"

Human beings have limited abilities, God's abilities on the other hand are supposedly limitless. As I was explaining to Lybrah, All Power = All Responsibility, if something is wrong God can fix it, though I'm still not sure how ANYTHING can be wrong or imperfect if God is perfect.

I'm all for people helping themselves and taking blame where it's due but that's because I don't believe there's any god to blame when stuff goes wrong or praise when stuff goes right.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I know Austinstar, I was feeling so insecure about myself, until I realized that Aphrodite loves me, and you know if you can get the Goddess of Love to love you the mortal women down here aren't any problem at all. Self-Esteem boosted :D


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

I know, right? To think that God, who has destroyed the world several times over, loves me makes me wonder what he would do to us if he didn't love us so much.

I think all the Greek and Roman gods love us. We much be so special!


Lybrah 3 years ago

Your problem is that you keep holding God up to human standards. You have to understand that God is above us...we may not understand why He does what He does, for His ways are not our ways. You have to understand God is sovereign, whether you like it or not. You're best bet would be to pray that God truly reveal Himself to you...I wish you could see how wrong you are. I'm really not trying to piss you off...I just feel you need to pray for some reconciliation. I will be praying for you.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, that is a standard answer to the dilemma. If God made man in his own image then he must also have the same kind of reasoning power that we have. Ergo, God is a murderer, so why should we want to be loved by a killer.

Praying is the biggest waste of time ever. Do you really believe that if you say some 'magic' words up into the sky that the invisible deities will hear you or even care?


Lybrah 3 years ago

Yes. I do.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

As if an "all knowing" deity wouldn't already know you were going to speak. LOL! I pity the indoctrinated who cannot escape their childhood brainwashing program. Logic makes no sense to them at all.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Um, childhood brainwashing program? Do you think me less of a person because I believe in something you don't? Have some respect! I give respect to others even if I don't agree with them. But you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. SMH


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Okay, so you didn't merely follow the first religion you were exposed to and thoroughly examined all of the others before making your choice, correct? You didn't inherit your religion from your parents or family members either? My bad. LOL!

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

No, I chose to follow Christ. I did learn about other religions. I probably know a lot more about them than you think. As I said, you have no clue what you're talking about. And I really don't want to argue with you, nor do I want to be demeaned. I am here for the hub author.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Who's arguing? And you did not inherit your religion then? And I would wager you learned about other religions later on in your life after becoming a Christian. So I am wrong about you and have no clue? LOL! Okay. "there will be no liars in heaven" LOL!

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

I did not inherit my religion. You are correct. You have NO clue. smfh


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Oh, but we do have clues, several of them in fact. You believing in prayer is a big, huge clue. Pray in one hand and help someone out with the other hand and see which hand actually gets the job done.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

So how did you get away from your parent's religion? Or are they not religious?

SSSSS


WiccanSage profile image

WiccanSage 3 years ago

I think you've made a good argument for why scripture written by ancient humans should not be taken literally.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Your problem is that you keep holding God up to human standards"

You're right, I should be holding God up to higher than human standards. He's supposed to be BETTER than we are right? In that case, given these new standards, God fails even more miserably.

"You're best bet would be to pray that God truly reveal Himself to you"

I spent my entire childhood and teenage years doing that, first as a Christian, then as a pantheistic drifter of varying faiths and beliefs. Never got any answer. Now I don't hold this against you God, because I don't think your God even exists. To use an analogy I've realized that the reason Santa Claus doesn't answer my letters is because there's no such thing or, if there is some kind of god out there, it's either incapable of answering or simply doesn't want to. I'm fine with all that, I'm happier as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks the comment WiccanSage :)

Taking the Bible literally definitely creates confusion and causes people to accept some ridiculous things.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm sure God answered you, but for whatever reason, you were unable to pick up on the sign...God works in mysterious ways...I've often wished I could get a blunt "yes" or "no" from Him myself, but God uses other methods of communication.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Ok, Lybrah, please enlighten us as to what those 'other methods of communication' are.


heeyoo profile image

heeyoo 3 years ago

Fantastic hub , I agree completely. Also the comment section is so funny with the usual debate.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I believe that God sends people into your life for particular reasons...or sometimes something might happen that could not just be a coincidence. It's hard to explain. Titen-Sxull, you must know what I am talking about...when you were a Christian, you never felt that God heard you in some way--through an occurance, or another person? I still don't understand how you can say you spoke in tongues and say there is no Holy Spirit.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Speaking in tongues? Gibberish is what it is, nothing but. I once heard a preacher from a nearby Holiness church speak in tongues as I dated girl who attended there.

A couple of her best friends--coincidentally the preacher's granddaughters--told my girlfriends he used to molest them frequently when they were very young.

Yes, speak in tongues. It makes you holy.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

@Randy Godwin That's pretty creepy


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Yes Lybrah, and I won't even go into the churches which handle snakes. You've got to remember, I live in southeast Georgia where there are so many fundamentalist churches you can't sling a dead cat without hitting a Christian up side the head.

The old saying down here is "if you gonna be a preacher you've got to love fried chicken and the women." LOL! :o

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Actually, speaking in tongues is not gibberish...it's an angelic language. People have been healed while being prayed under by other people speaking in tongues. I know the Lord cured me from an ailment.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Actually no, Lybrah. But perhaps you know someone who can translate this "godly" communication. If not, then what would be the purpose of words without a meaning? I suggest you do a little real research on such mumblings.

I still believe Christianity was your first introduction into religion, despite your claims to the contrary. Are your parents the same faith? You seem to avoid direct questions for some reason. But feel free to explain if you aren't frightened of the answers.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

I was brought up Roman Catholic. We went to church on Sunday, I went to Sunday School, I made my communion, I had my confirmation, we said Grace at the dinner table. As I got older, I joined Christian bible studies and became more non-denominational...I no longer pray on the Rosary, or to any of the saints. I don't consider myself Roman Catholic anymore. My parents lost touch with religion over the years, but I still believe. No one else in my family is really into Christ like I am.

Is this what you wanted to know about me, Randy Godwin? I'd be happy to answer any direct questions. I'm not brainwashed.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks heeyo. Sometimes these debates feel like running in circles but I still find them enjoyable.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Titen-Sxull, you must know what I am talking about...when you were a Christian, you never felt that God heard you in some way--through an occurance, or another person"

There were plenty of times that, while praying, I would have very profound emotional experiences. This occurred both as a Christian and later on as a pantheist. I can remember one event where I SEEMED to get a "message" from the Universal pantheistic God I believed in (I wrote about this in one of my hubs). But then I also had an event where I SEEMED to remember my own past lives while I believed in reincarnation. My point is that these experiences were emotional or mental in nature and applied to whatever I believed in at the time, they were self-induced, self-contained, and not the result of external forces.

I soon realized that those profound feelings I had while praying, the euphoria or profound sadness, are identical to the ones I had listening to music, having vivid dreams, or being struck by inspiration while writing. These are universals to the human experience.

As for coincidence or "synchronicity" I've never had anything happen that stood out as the message or "sign" of any god.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I personally believe you were endowed with a gift of some sort (perhaps the gift of tongues) by the Holy Spirit, and you simply just turned away from it. I think you know deep down inside that God exists, but you want to be a hater for some reason. That's why you spend so much time trying to convince people there is no God.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, I can't speak for Titen, but I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to convince people there is no God because people like you keep perpetuating the myths. You guys keep insisting there is an invisible all-knowing, all-seeing being in the sky that whimsically answers or doesn't answer "prayers". This is just a load of crap that you have been taught all you life and you think you can just continue this BS by repeating it over and over and judging people that don't believe the same things as you. Does this make you feel special? I guess it does or you wouldn't keep doing it.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm just offering my thoughts...not really judging, I am just having a simple debate with the HUB AUTHOR.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Your last comment speaks volumes, Lybrah. Your saying Titen-Sxull "wants" to be a hater reminds me so much of the preachers and self-professed Christians here in the Bible Belt.

One cannot hate something they don't believe in. You were raised in an environment conducive to believing in a god. The odds are if you were brought up elsewhere in the world you would now have different beliefs. If not, then everyone would believe the same thing if god truly gave them the same chance to change.

One's religious environment molds their beliefs in the mystical religions, not the particular deity. Check out how many Mormons are located in Utah and the nearby states. Is this merely a coincidence?

I suppose one could label you a hater of science since you fail to believe much of its knowledge, but yet, I'll bet you'd want the best medicines and treatments for yourself and family members rather than simply praying they get better. So then, where does your faith in god end and where does your faith in science begin?

You cannot have it both ways, no matter how hard you try.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

I am very thankful I was raised in the Roman Catholic religion and got the opportunity to know Christ. I can't help but wonder about Titen-Sxull--he has written 81 hubs, most of them being "There is no God and even if there was--he's evil and doesn't deserve to be worshipped." He has several youtube videos saying the same thing. I just wonder why someone would spend so much energy....all I am saying is that I am skeptical of our friend, Titen-Sxull.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Well Lybrah--If someone wrote lots of hubs describing the Easter Bunny as not being real would you label them a "rabbit hater?" Or do you describe yourself as an atheist or agnostic hater? I see many of your ilk who describe those not of your mindset "haters" but cannot see themselves in the same light. Typical of your cult, it's sad to say.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

I hate no one.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Referring to someone not in agreement with you as a "hater" certainly indicates a "judgement" of them on your part. Isn't there something in your old book strictly forbidding such "judging" of others? Do you desire to quote the scripture I am referring to, or would you rather I do it for you. But then, perhaps you are one of those "Christians" who pick and choose the particular scriptures they have faith in and ignore the others.

SSSSS


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Ok, I am giving up on this one. I'll start "praying" for you though because the gods love you so much. I hope they do exist, just so you can say, "I told you so."


Lybrah 3 years ago

Well, at least I got you praying


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

I'm with you, Austinstar. I'm weary of trying to enlighten these self-professed Christians as to facts they should already be aware of.

Especially those who hide behind a fake name while endeavoring to "witness" for Jesus. Kind of cheesy, in my opinion. I thought they were to proudly perform this duty as themselves, not hide behind a wall while preaching to the masses.

I suppose they really don't believe their god will protect them from harm while doing so. sigh!

SSSSS


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Right now I'm praying that you can recognize sarcasm when you see it.

Right on, Randy, there is no hope for most of the zealots out there, but I found success with my nephew. Through no effort on my part, he became an atheist as well as a gay/lesbian/etc. supporter. My brother, who went to a Nazarene University and almost became a Nazarene pastor, is already rolling over in his grave without even being dead yet. My nephew was so totally brainwashed with 'Christian' doctrine that I am amazed at his reasoning powers! He actually questioned the church and discovered how big a load of crap they kept shovelling out. I'm so proud of him I'm naming him in my will.

My brother is now on a tirade about Sandusky and thinks if we accept "gay marriage", we're going to have to accept child molesters too. How does one go from accepting gays to accepting pedophiles? I have no clue.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

@Austinstar--great news about your nephew, I mean using his common sense and lack of hatred to learn about his fellow man. I don't understand the drive to judge others as most believers do so badly. Perhaps some day they can look at themselves honestly as having no more right to want to rule the lives of others than were th opposite to be true. Sadly, most have been indoctrinated since childhood and can never recover from being stifled intellectually by their church leaders. at an early age.

SSSSS


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I don't actually spend much of my time on hubpages. You'll note that, until you began spamming my hubs, I hadn't written anything about religion in quite some time.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

That Easter Egg laying bastard has it coming Randy, he's next on my "hater" list.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I'm not spamming you...oh are you going to block this comment, too?


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I moved to hubpages from my old blog, godlessblogger.blogspot.com because I knew the audience would be bigger and I'd actually be able to get comments and discussion. I began writing that blog in July 2010, I'd only realized I was an atheist six or seven months earlier and so I figured I would add my opinion to the discussion and tell my story.

The short-stories, poems, songs and non-atheism material I have on hubpages is only the tip of the ice-berg as far as my written content.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I didn't use the word spam to mean actual SPAM, I merely mean a lot of comments in a short time.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Really? I would honestly like to read it.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

LOL! Titen-Sxull!--I never cease to be amazed at what passes for logic in a believer's thinking processes. They seem to feel authorized to judge others but can barely tolerate the same towards themselves.

If I told believers they were going to rot in a barrel full of manure for eternity because they didn't believe in my god Moe, they would laugh in my face, but still expect me to show respect for their god and his stupid penalties. Sheesh!

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Randy Godwin, can you leave this coversation, please?


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Why certainly. Lybrah. It's not as if you can actually understand my point anyway. But I would have thought the author of this hub would have the final say on this.B but oh yeah, I forgot you feel entitled to decide the right and wrong of things because of your faith. And you don't seem capable of answering my questions anyway. Toodles!! lol!

SSSSS


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Randy, first you would have to clone yourself and call yourself your only begotten son which would arrive on earth via a penniless virgin who would give birth to you in a straw filled manger. Then you would have to grow up amongst your own creations and insult them and blaspheme them to the point where you get yourself strung up on some old wooden beams with rusty nails after being tortured. Then you would have to allow your clone to die (or nearly die) before being stuffed in a cave for 3 days and miraculously re-annimate yourself before you can call yourself a GOD. Seriously?

Isn't it just easier to scare people into supporting their awe-inspiring conduits who can actually speak for God and let them tell you if you don't contribute ten percent of your income to the church which will pray for them and absolve them from burning in hell if they don't?

Well, sorry for the grammatical construct of this comment, but maybe you'll catch my drift.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

@Austinstar--Although I don't claim to be a god--despite my surname--I cannot understand how so many people can simply accept the words written by unknown men so easily, especially if it doesn't make any sense.

And as for the sacrifice Jesus and his dad supposedly made for everyone's sins, how is it a big sacrifice when dad can simply bring junior right back again? Now if he had let him remain dead until his body deteriorated for a few weeks and then brought him back, he may have been able to make a point.

Personally, I don't think he ever existed in the first place, and as the Jews have so aptly pointed out, Jesus didn't fit the profile of the Old Testament prophets. He was supposed to be a great military leader, and by no stretch of the imagination can this be honestly claimed.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Dear Titen-Sxull,

I showed this article to my friend. He brought up a good point. He said:

"I'd say that the most ironic thing about this commentary is that it uses the biblical definition of love to debunk the bible and love. So how can you use the bible as your litmus test if you don't even believe it???"


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Well, it may be because that is the only definition that religionists accept. It's ironic, you see.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Read 2 Peter 3:8-10


Lybrah 3 years ago

My friend says:

"Reading further, the author really doesn't understand the gospel, and he is doing literal interpretations of things.

"Does Not Delight in Evil" - God is a just God, so He cannot allow sin to go unpunished, but He is patient and gives folks a chance. But in other situations folks just gotta die right away. Plus, most of the folks who get killed in the OT are folks who are descendants of folks that sinned against God, He just punished them later

"Love Never Fails" - God knows we will never make it w/o His help, and loved us enough to give His only son to empower those who choose to follow Him. God gave us free will. We're not robots

"Keeps No Record of Wrong" - this is silly since obviously God cannot forget anything, but what God is not doing is counting it against us for judgment's sake. Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:8:12, Hebrrews 10:15-17


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

My friend says: "Ask the believers who created Satan and evil in the first place. If god created everything then he is responsible for all of the evil in the world, because you can't have good without evil."

"Satan was made perfect by God. It says so in the old novel and there's no misinterpreting it. How could anything else but God's power penetrate the shell of perfection he himself made around his favorite angel and tempt him to evil, unless there is a stronger power than God's."

Ask your friends! lololol!

SSSSS


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Yes, how dare I use the Bible to judge itself, it's almost as if I expect the Bible to be INTERNALLY CONSISTENT with its own claims. Now, as someone who was once taught that the Bible was the PERFECT WORD OF GOD, where would I get the idea that the Bible is supposed to be consistent with itself?

Show this to your friend,

Internal Inconsistency for Dummies:

The God of the Bible establishes that killing is wrong

The God of the Bible then commits murder

The God of the Bible then commands his people to commit mass genocide

Here's another example:

The God of the Bible claims to be loving, merciful and just

The God of the Bible then endorses slavery (including the beating of slaves), kills innocent children, and sentences people to Hell.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"and he is doing literal interpretations of things."

Please tell me where I am falsely using a literal interpretation when the Bible means to imply a figurative one.

"...descendants of folks that sinned against God, He just punished them later"

I see, so a JUST God can punish YOU for the sins SOMEONE ELSE committed. I think you're friend doesn't understand the BASICS of the concept of justice.

"this is silly since obviously God cannot forget anything"

I'm glad you think it's silly, because I do to.

God can't forget anything? Than what about Isaiah 43:25? God says that he will blot out sins and remember sins "no more". What about in the Garden of Eden where God is SEARCHING for Adam and Eve and doesn't know where they are? Or that Jesus, who IS GOD according to Christians, doesn't know when he is returning, only the Father knows. Again, INTERNAL CONSISTENCY is something the Bible lacks that you would expect a book inspired by God to have.

I think your "friend" is missing the point, the point being that the Bible is inconsistent, and also that it, it depicts God as a jealous genocidal maniac rather than the loving and merciful creator of the Universe that modern Christianity wants to sell.


Lybrah 3 years ago

The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.


Lybrah 3 years ago

The sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not kill."1 Atheists claim that God violated His own commandment in ordering the destruction of entire cities, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East. The Bible confirms that God ordered the killing of thousands of people. Isn't this an open and shut case for the hypocrisy of the God of the Bible?

Is all killing the same?

One thing you have to love about atheists is their extreme appreciation for the King James Version (KJV) translation. The KJV was translated in the early 17th century using an archaic form of modern English. In the last 400 years, the English language has changed significantly. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those who read the KJV (both believers and unbelievers) are unqualified to know what the text means in many instances because of word meaning changes. In attempting to demonstrate the contradiction of God's commands to Israel and the sixth commandment, atheist cite the KJV translation, "Thou shalt not kill."

However, like English, Hebrew, the language in which most of the Old Testament was written, uses different words for intentional vs. unintentional killing. The verse translated "Thou shalt not kill" in the KJV translation, is translated "You shall not murder"2 in modern translations - because these translations represents the real meaning of the Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates the phrase, "Do not put anyone to death without cause."2 The Hebrew word used here is ratsach,3 which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In fact, specific cities were designated as "cities of refuge," so that an unintentional killer could flee to escape retribution.4 The Hebrew word for "kill" in this instance is not ratsach, but nakah, which can refer to either premeditated or unintentional killing, depending upon context.5 Other Hebrew words also can refer to killing.6-8 The punishment for murder was the death sentence.9 However, to be convicted, there needed to be at least two eyewitnesses.10 The Bible also prescribes that people have a right to defend themselves against attack and use deadly force if necessary.11

Is God's killing justified?

To answer the question whether God breaks His own commandments, we need to determine if God committed murder (i.e., killed people without cause). The Bible is quite clear that God has killed people directly (the most prominent example being the flood) and indirectly (ordered peoples to be killed). If God ordered or participated in the killing of innocent people, then He would be guilty of murder. Let's look at two of the most prominent examples.

The flood

According to the Bible, God killed every human except Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives in the flood. Were any of these people killed unjustly? The Bible says specifically that all people (except Noah and his family) had become corrupted.12 Not only had all people become corrupted, but they were continually plotting evil!13 Is it possible that an entire culture can become corrupted? You bet! Recent history proves the point rather well. When the Nazis took over Germany before WWII, opposition was crushed and removed. When they began their purging of the undesirables (e.g., the Jews), virtually the entire society went along with the plan. Further examples are given on another page. So, the Bible indicates that no innocent people were killed in the flood.

God orders killing

What about when God ordered Joshua and his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan?14 What crime could be so great that entire populations of cities were designated for destruction? God told Moses that the nations that the Hebrew were replacing were wicked.15 How "wicked" were these people? The text tells us that they were burning their own sons and daughters in sacrifices to their gods.16 So we see that these people were not really innocent. For these reasons (and others17), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.

What about the children and other "innocents"

Surely God could have spared the children! People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors.18 They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their lives in suicide bombings as children.19 Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.

Surely there must have been other innocent adults in those cities who were destroyed with the wicked! There actually is an example of a time when God was asked if He would destroy the innocent along with the wicked. Prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the righteous along with the wicked.20 God replied that He would spare the entire city for 50 righteous people.21 Abraham kept reducing the possible number of righteous people, asking God if He would destroy the entire city along with those number of righteous people.22 God's reply in each case was that He would not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. The lowest number Abraham asked about was ten righteous people, although the answer would likely be the same with as few as one righteous individual. How do we know this? God sent two angels to warn the four righteous people in Sodom to flee before He destroyed the city.23 It is quite convenient that such details are usually left out of atheistic sites complaining about the "evil" perpetrated by God. In fact, God saved certain people from being killed in cities such as Jericho.24

Conclusion

The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is really not as general as the King James version would indicate. The commandment actually refers to premeditated, unjustified killing - murder. Although God ordered the extermination of entire cities, He did so in righteous judgment on a people whose corruption had led to extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice. Did God destroy the righteous along with the wicked? In an exchange with Abraham, God indicated that He would spare the wicked to save the righteous. He demonstrated this principle by saving righteous people from Sodom and Jericho prior to their destruction. The charge that God indiscriminately murdered people does not hold to to critical evaluation of the biblical texts.


Lybrah 3 years ago

In case you couldn't tell, I did a little research, and asked a few friends. You are wrong!


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Oh well, then slavery is okay as long you are a Hebrew or a Baptist. lol! The fact remains your god condones slavery no matter the excuses you give for him. He also allows selling your daughters if the price is right. This is in your old novel also, along with many other immoral things allowed by your god. Make all of the excuses you like for him, but either believe everything in the old tome or nothing. Picking and choosing what you like or dislike in the novel is a cop-out, and nothing less.

This is what happens when old goat herders differ in their opinions of what they think a god wants and writes it down as truth. Inspired by god my asp! lol!

SSSSS


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

No doubt the friends were as fully indoctrinated as yourself. lol! Sorry, I don't buy the reasons your god murders children and others not already steeped in the superstitions about your mythical deity. Nor the excuses for allowing any type of slavery as they are simply ridiculous to an ethical society. Of course, this society would exclude believers for the most part as being truly ethical as they seem to judge others as being unworthy compared to themselves. An insult, as anyone can see.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Well, Randy, I did not write this for you

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, you have sought out the advice of friends and actually 'did a little research'. Your problem is that you are quoting either your friends or the Bible.

You are not using the power of your own brain to figure things out. If something doesn't make sense to you, try to unravel the puzzle on your own before you go running off to consult someone or something that only gives you the rote answer, and then, at least, seek out various opinions (from different faiths) before you sternly pronounce one of them wrong.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

There was little doubt in the matter, Lybrah. You were simply preaching to the choir, as they are alone in actually taking you seriously. lol!

SSSSS


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Nice, a response COPY AND PASTED from a website, way to go.

The fact is that the Bible openly condones slavery, in fact in Exodus 21 the permission to own human beings are property comes DIRECTLY FROM GOD HIMSELF, it's literally the chapter RIGHT AFTER the ten commandments. It doesn't matter what TYPE of slavery it condones.

Please post things in your own words. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Also copy and pasted from another website.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

"(i.e., killed people without cause)"

If the criteria for God breaking his own commandment is killing people without cause, than he definitely broke his own commandment in the Flood, the First Born of Egypt, Job's children, etc.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I will be blocking any more copy and pasted content you post. If you want to have a discussion than please put forth some basic effort to have one. You don't see me fucking copy and pasting from Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins do you? Posting someone else's words into a comment IS NOT RESEARCH.

I'm not asking every argument you have to be original, but at the very least have the intelligence to PARAPHRASE. It also couldn't hurt to try thinking for yourself.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

But......but....she said she got her answers from....friends, Titen-sxull! You mean she was......fibbing? But she is a Christian, they don't lie do they? lol!

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Well, the guy said everything I wanted to say, and I didn't feel like typing it all out. I do think for myself--but I wasn't born knowing everything like you guys--so I do have to ask others and get information from outside sources, and then I do thinking on my own. You obviously know more about the bible than do I. Like I said, I wasn't born knowing everything--like you guys!


Lybrah 3 years ago

BTW, did you read the material I copied and pasted? It is very interesting. I won't be so lazy next time.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

No one is born knowing everything, Lybrah, but at least we researched the Bible and found out things for ourselves and didn't depend on those who only learned from hearsay what we should think.

This is the biggest mistake most self-proclaimed Christians make while trying to argue the Bible. We usually end up having it out with those of your ilk, namely those who depend on what they've been told by church leaders and other apologists or even--as in your case--those who go to religious websites and merely copy and paste the thoughts of others of their mindset.

As Austinstar so aptly put it in her comments above, look for the answers yourself and don't depend on like-minded "liars for Jesus" to make up your mind for you.

You fooled no one with your "friends" information and should apologize for even attempting such a disingenuous ruse. This is why believers such as yourself have so little credibility in many of these religious discussions on HP.

To think you would actually try such only gives the impression of desperation because you have no answers yourself and actually proves you know even less about your beliefs than the run of the mill atheists and agnostics. Not good.

But don't fret too much as you are typical of most believers who have simply accepted everything they've been told and don't care to really search for the truth themselves. Thanks for proving the OP's point for him. :)

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

I have faith that Jesus is real. I'm really not trying to make enemies here, I just thought the OP should read the content on that site. I was looking for ways to argue that God is not evil. I did wonder why God would condone slavery and decided there must be a good reason for it. I got lazy and copied and pasted. I didn't realize I was doing anything wrong...I sense I made the OP angry.

I think that God is God and what He does is not for us to question. Who are you to question God? I'm sorry if that makes me ignorant in your eyes.

If you don't believe, what do you have? I have God in my life, and I know I will someday be with Him in heaven. But what do you have to look forward to? That when we die, we're just dead? There's nothing there? I would hate to live my life thinking that this is all there is. God gives me purpose in my life. What do you live for?


Lybrah 3 years ago

I would rather live my life believing in God and then die to find out that there is nothing, than to live my life as if there were so God, to die and find out there is. I have nothing to lose by believing.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

I live for the chance I have been given, Lybrah. I need no invisible deity to tell me the difference between right and wrong, as mankind has found this out long before man ever created any of the numerous gods of our past.

"I did wonder why God would condone slavery and decided there must be a good reason for it."

How did you come to this particular decision? You simply wish for it to be so and are satisfied with your choice. Do you make all of the important decisions in your life in this manner? I seriously doubt it.

So then why would you risk your soul in such a manner. Suppose we used the same reasoning in our discussions with you? Would you be satisfied with such logic? Once again, I doubt it.

I don't blame the OP for getting angry with your posts, as you claimed a "friend" furnished you with answers to his queries. The old and trite "we shouldn't questions God's motives" is used by every religion known to man and is meant to prohibit the adherents from questioning things which which make no sense in the scheme of things.

Why? Because if one looks closely and uses the sense

"their god supposedly gave them" then they will find out the words in the bible are simply those of common ignorant men, who themselves have no greater understanding of the world around them.

Your attitude is simply that of those who demanded the crusades, the inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and those who followed Jim Jones to the point of murdering their own children because they didn't ask questions about things which made no sense at all.

We are not trying to quell religion, merely the ignorance it promulgates among those who blindly accept it for what others think it should be. But you won't listen to us, you'd rather take the word of ignorant goat herders who thought the world flat and that a flood of water covered the entire world at one time.

"Seek and ye shall find" is the best advice I can give you at this juncture. Not angry at all, merely sad that old superstitions have such sway over otherwise intelligent human beings. :(

SSSSS


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

And what if you believe in the wrong god? You think you'd get off easier than those who didn't believe at all? Yes I know, too many questions for you to consider all once. Better to just pick out something and believe in it and not worry about facts and logic muddling the whole thing up.

SSSSS


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I wasn't born knowing everything and I don't believe for a second that the guy "said everything you wanted to say". Really? You wanted to give a generic apologetic dodge of slavery? You'll just settle for any canned forumla response to an issue as troubling as Biblical slavery? We're talking about the God you believe in telling his chosen people that it is okay to BUY, SELL, OWN and even BEAT other human beings as PROPERTY.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Yes I read it, that's how I realized it was copy and pasted, because the word choices and writing style were nothing like any of your other comments.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"If you don't believe, what do you have?"

Family, friends, love, passions, hobbies, hopes and dreams. The same things that any ordinary human being has.

"I would hate to live my life thinking that this is all there is"

I used to think the same thing when I was a believer. I was afraid of the idea that death was the end, but then I realized that that fear was not a good reason to believe in an afterlife. Sure thoughts of a life after this one seem nice on the surface, they help comfort when loved ones die and help relieve fear of our own death but if there is no afterlife than all those beliefs are is a comforting self-deception.

What do I have to look forward to in the "next life", absolutely nothing. At the end of a hard and hopefully long life I will actually be able to die, rather than be dragged into an eternity of existence. What do you plan to do in Heaven for eternity? Sure you might be able to fill your time for a few thousand years, maybe a few million, but once you've been in Heaven for a billion years, or even MORE, eternity would seem far more like a curse. People get bored here, on Earth, with lives that last only 75 years or so, you seriously don't think you'll get bored with eternity? Keep in mind that eternity DOESN'T END, EVER.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

You don't necessarily have anything to lose, unless you've picked the wrong God, and then you have everything to lose. For me personally though I wouldn't want to live my life believing that kind of thing without ever exploring whether or not it was true to the fullest extent that is possible. That's how I became an atheist, by trying to explore my faith, explore what I'd been taught, and realizing that when you look into it there's nothing of substance there.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Eternity will not be boring. Heaven is going to be such an awesome place, much better than here...it's a shame you won't be there to enjoy it with me :(


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, Heaven is an unknown entity. No one who has been there has ever come back and said it is "such and awesome" place. It's a shame you won't be there to enjoy it either. But good luck with that.

You might want to consider enjoying your life, such that it is.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Eternity will not be boring? Well maybe not for the first thousand years, but again what do you plan on doing AFTER THAT? In fact what do you plan on doing in Heaven AT ALL? Because I have yet to receive a response from a Christian that sounds good. Here are some options:

1) Worship God for an eternity - Why would I want to bow before the monstrous tyrant who is burning people in a Lake of Fire. The God of the Bible makes Satan, Stalin, Hitler and Emperor from Star Wars look like moral upstanding citizens.

2) Do whatever you want - Even if it were feasible to do whatever we wanted in Heaven, which it isn't because SIN wouldn't be allowed thus limiting our behavior greatly, we'd still run out of stuff to do really quickly. Even if God gave us the ability to fly freely throughout space and time and explore the cosmos we'd STILL RUN OUT of shit to do eventually.

Keep in mind that ETERNITY means NEVER-ENDING. Billions, than trillions of years, than quadriliions, and on and on and on after that. That's not something any human being should long for and it's pretty obviously a fairy-tale ending, meaning it's a fantasy, it sounds good in theory but then when you really think about it it's maddening and horrific.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Well, I'd buy an eternity of boredom over an eternity of burning in the lake of fire any day of the week. You may choose not to believe in hell, but that doesn't make it nonexistent.

Do you honestly know God? You think you know all about Him, because you read the bible, but do you really know Jesus? Your supposed to seek the Lord with all your heart...have you really sought after Him? God in the Old Testament may have been harsh at times, I'll admit, but what about everything Jesus said in the New Testament? What about everything that Jesus did--healing people, for example. Reread Revelations and then tell me that it is not coming to pass....we are in the last days!


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

LOL! Judging others to burn in hell because they don't think like you while you are rewarded? How self-righteous you are! Cotton Mather would have loved you as a jurist. :p

SSSSS


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"but do you really know Jesus?"

Do you honestly know the company of Zeus and his son Hercules? You know you may not believe in the Greek Underworld but that doesn't make it non-existent and I'm guessing Zeus's mercy is only going to extend so far when he finds you've been serving false gods.

I wouldn't pretend to know any gods on a personal level, and there's the biggest fundamental difference between you and I.

Do YOU honestly know God? As what? A feeling? A voice in your head? An instinct? Because Jesus isn't walking around your apartment, he doesn't come round once a week to shoot the breeze with you over a beer, he isn't a physical person in your life. It's even worse than that actually, because not only is he not physically present but he's not observably present at all. He won't email you, doesn't answer phone calls, and certainly won't accept facebook friend requests. Nope, the best you can claim is the same thing I could've claimed as a Christian, that Jesus exists as a vague telepathic contact who seemingly "beams" emotions and thoughts into your mind. Thoughts and emotions that are INDISTINGUISHABLE from your own, you know, if you're being honest with yourself.

And for the last time, threats of Hell are not a reason to believe, any more than threats of coal in my stocking come Christmas.


Lybrah 3 years ago

I guess then it is pretty obvious then that you don't know the Lord. You've rejected Him. Reread the New Testament and join a bible study group. You need to be re-educated.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

If I hadn't read the Bible I wouldn't have so many hubs dedicated to pointing out how logically inconsistent and morally bankrupt it is.

Here's some of Jesus' wonderful words from the New Testament, Matthew Chapter 10 if you want to read them in context:

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Just fills your heart with warm and fuzzy feelings doesn't it?


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

lol@ Titen-Sxull--This one is a real piece of work. She has an answer for......well......nothing! lol! She cannot think for herself any longer and must have the old novel to guide her life, just as Jim Jones did. lol!

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

So are all theists ignorant in your eyes because they choose to believe something you don't. Did it ever occur to you that I have probably had the same kind of education you had (I went to college and grad school) and CHOSE TO BELIEVE because many things in the bible make sense to me? You liken those who believe to "a child" or "Ignoramus" and that makes you JUST AS BAD as Christians who, supposedly like me, think their religion is superior.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Telling me i have no concept of right and wrong and that I can't put myself in another's shoes is CRUEL. I will have you know I studied at Loyola University in Maryland!


Lybrah 3 years ago

Saying that theists don't think for themselves is not true!


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

You have been indoctrinated fully into the old superstitions and have no hope of being open-minded any longer. You must cling to the teachings of the old novel no matter how ridiculous they are. You cannot think for yourself any longer. Education does not trump delusion. We've observed this many times before here on HP and you are certainly no exception. More's the pity.

SSSSS


Lybrah 3 years ago

Your comments mean nothing to me, Randy. You are obnoxious and have NOTHING beneficial to say. But then again, you have no respect for God, why would I expect you to respect me?


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

I had no hope you could listen to reason, Lybrah. Or facts and logic, as far as that is concerned. lol! I've dealt with your ilk almost all of my life down here on the very buckle of the Bible Belt.

"You are obnoxious and have NOTHING beneficial to say. "

Spoken by a true "self-proclaimed Christian" who ignores the whole "Judge not, lest...." scripture in the old tome. Pick and choose what you believe as your cult has always done. Talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. lolol! Typical!

SSSSS


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, I just read your hub on the Maya 12/21/12 thing. There are a couple of errors there, but one thing that really struck me as odd was that you proclaimed that "the Bible cannot be wrong". This is something that you seriously believe.

I agree. The Bible cannot be wrong, and on the other hand, it cannot be right either. The Bible is just a book written by many authors. They all had different view points and it shows as inconsistencies. They were not "right" or "wrong", they were just expressing what they though of life, the universe and everything. The Bible is a compilation of opinions. Some opinions are different than others, not "right" or "wrong". What you choose to accept as "right" is just your personal opinion. If you want to accept Jesus, then do so. Just don't expect everyone to do that. We have our own opinions on things.

This is something you should have learned at Loyola.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Thanks for checking out my hubs, Austinstar! It might please you to know I have just published a new one today! Check it out!


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

They're not ignorant because they believe something I don't, they're ignorant if they choose to ignore logic, reason and evidence in favor of something which cannot stand up to them. It has nothing to do with whether I believe or not, I was all kinds of ignorant when I was a believer.

"CHOSE TO BELIEVE"

Belief isn't simply a choice like what you're going to have for breakfast. If something isn't logically consistent, if something you believe doesn't make a lick of sense, than you have to employ an awful lot of self-deception to continue believing. Drowning out the voice of legitimate doubt isn't as easy as making a simple choice.

"You liken those who believe to "a child" or "Ignoramus" and that makes you JUST AS BAD as Christians who, supposedly like me, think their religion is superior."

When did I ever say that ALL BELIEVERS are ignoramuses? You're putting words in my mouth on that one. I said that in order to respond to threats of Hell I would have to be a child or an ignoramus, because they're the only ones persuaded by those sorts of threats. When I was a child they taught me about Hell and it left me wracked with guilt growing up afraid at any moment that I'd be left behind in the rapture for having one too many sexual thoughts or one too few sincere prayers of repentance.

Eventually I grew up, I applied reason, skepticism and logic to all the things I had been taught, turns out there are no monsters in the closet and no boogeyman beneath the bed. Anyone, regardless of intelligence, can be duped by religion, tricked into believing things that upon closer examination make no logical or moral sense. The question of whether or not someone is being ignorant is whether they are willing to examine those beliefs and admit to themselves when those beliefs are shown to be absurd or abhorrent.

It all depends, also, on how much you value real truth as well. I used to be afraid of atheism because I wanted to believe in an afterlife, so eventually I chose reincarnation, an afterlife that didn't have any vengeful gods and that didn't even force you to live for an eternity as the same person you were now. But I realized that I was just choosing to believe something because it sounded right, it helped me deal with the idea that everyone was going to die, but in the end, like Christianity before, there was no good reason to believe any of it was true.

Valuing the truth, the actual truth, is important. We cant just believe something because it feels good, sounds right at the time or because we were taught to be afraid of doubt, taught that disbelief would get us punished. When I was fresh out of high school I came to a realization that a God, if one did exist, would want me to seek the truth on my own and doubt anyone or anything that pretended to already know the truth in it's entirety. I don't know about you, but for me simply CHOOSING to believe wasn't enough anymore especially if I couldn't trust that I what I was choosing was actually true.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Well you are justifying the murder of innocent children and destruction of entire civilizations. At the very least this suggests a confused moral compass.


Lybrah 3 years ago

When Jesus came and said "I've come to bring a sword," He did not mean literally, bring a sword to kill people; He meant that there would be tension among people because some would believe and others wouldn't. Some would be of the same family.

You're interpreting the bible incorrectly.

PS For the last time, those Cannaanites got what they deserved! There were no innocents! They were all bad, every last one of them! God KNEW that. If I created beings and they hated me and did nasty things, I'd want to get rid of them too. Sometimes you just can't negotiate.


heeyoo profile image

heeyoo 3 years ago

You really think a being that is supposed to be omnipotent and of infinite intelligence would need his creations to be his cheerleaders or else they will burn for eternity ?


Lybrah 3 years ago

A being that is omnipotent and of infinite intelligence can do whatever He likes. He gave his creation free will purposefully so that He would know that they would truly loved Him. You wouldn't want someone to be in love with you because you put a spell on him, would you? You'd want that person to choose you. That's how it is for God as well.

Keep in mind that the lake of fire was not prepared for us; it was prepared for Satan and his angels. But those who side with Satan are going to go there too. And if you're not for God, you're siding with Satan whether you realize it or not.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, I'm just going to come right out and say it. Your brain just doesn't function very well.

Why do you think a sword means "tension"? That is like saying a gun also means to bring dissent and tension. All weapons were built for one reason and one reason only - to kill things.

And tell the truth, would you want your father to murder you if you disobeyed and maybe even hated him? Surely, he could be a better father instead of resorting to genocide?


Lybrah 3 years ago

And tell the truth, would you want your father to murder you if you disobeyed and maybe even hated him? Surely, he could be a better father instead of resorting to genocide?

You cannot liken God to a human father. That was a poor analogy. That's like saying it's God's fault they were bad...that was not the case.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

"That's like saying it's God's fault they were bad...that was not the case."

Who created evil (bad), Lybrah?

sssss


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Yep, it's God's fault for not being perfect. A perfect god could not ever create imperfect things. That would mean he was imperfect. It's called circular logic.

Ok, if you don't want to compare God to a human father, at least compare him to his own creation, Satan. Satan would murder and destroy his creations, right? So why does God do that too?


Lybrah 3 years ago

God is perfect; he did create imperfect beings. He made them that way on purpose because he wanted them to have free will (also, there was the presence of sin)...why is this so hard for you to understand? God's only option with the Canaanites was to dispose of them; for they would NOT repent of their ways. Like I said before, God knew there was no negotiation that was going to go through with these people. It's like having bugs in your apartment. You have to get rid of them; you're not going to be able to negotiate with them. They're not going to just go away on their own. Bottom Line: God creates beings; gives them free will, they choose evil over Him, they get destroyed. Remember, God knew what was in EACH persons heart and saw that ALL of them were wicked. So don't start in with that "innocents were killed." There were no innocents! That's what we have to assume!

And yes, God created evil. Because He created EVERYTHING!


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Thank you for admitting your god created evil, Lybrah. He also made Satan perfect, but his perfect creation was tempted by his other creation, evil. He seems to be pitting his own powers against each other for some reason. Of course, he has always known how each of us turns out in the end. What's the use of going through the motions when the end result is always known?

sssss


Lybrah 3 years ago

God does not owe you or anyone an explanation for why He does what He does.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

Apparently not, Lybrah. He has adherents like yourself trying to explain away all of the bad things he does in the old novel. Better keep your day job Lybrah, as acting the role of a Biblical apologetic is certainly not your strong point.

sssss


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"why is this so hard for you to understand?"

Because it doesn't make any logical sense. A perfect being CANNOT logically create imperfection. Perfection is an ABSOLUTE. You may as well be suggesting that God is all powerful but can't do ANYTHING.

" God's only option with the Canaanites was to dispose of them; for they would NOT repent of their ways"

Again this isn't logically sound in the slightest. God is supposedly perfect, all knowing, all powerful and all loving. this means that there is no way that he can fail and it also means there is always another option. Also, God is meant to be morally perfect, you wouldn't say that a HUMAN BEING (morally imperfect) was justified in murdering whole civilizations, even if those civilizations were sinners, so you claiming that God (morally perfect) is capable of such evil is stupid.

"you're not going to be able to negotiate with them."

It's funny, because God never attempted this. He'd send a prophet sure, but he never appeared in the sky to talk to them and show them he was real. Now God did appear to Moses in the form of a burning bush and talk to him, but the Canaanites didn't get such mercy, nope, they were enslaved or put to the sword.

"God creates beings; gives them free will, they choose evil over Him, they get destroyed."

So than you admit that your God is an evil monster, good, I'm glad we've reached an agreement. Now why are you worshiping this asshole? Who would bow before such a horrible tyrant out of anything other than fear? Or is that it, you're afraid of the consequences of admitting the truth that the Bible is full of it?

"Remember, God knew what was in EACH persons heart and saw that ALL of them were wicked. "

This works in the case of adults, maybe, but then what about the First Born of Egypt. And don't pretend that the first born were all going to grow up wicked too, we've already established that that argument doesn't make killing children justified.

"There were no innocents!"

1st Samuel Chapter 15:

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[ all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Re-read that and try to do it with a little bit of empathy for your fellow humans, that's children AND infants. No innocents my ass, the Bible is replete with innocent people being killed, God even admits he will punish children, who may not be guilty of anything, for the sins of their Father.

"And yes, God created evil. Because He created EVERYTHING!"

And so we come to the end of our discussion, with you officially surrendering any humanity and moral decency you had to worship before the altar of a monster. Admitting to yourself that he is cruel, barbaric and the creator of evil. Admitting openly that he has made imperfect beings purposefully imperfect and than blamed them when they turned out less than perfect. You may as well be bowing before Cthulhu, Dagon and Yog-Sothoth.

I have to ask, what is GOOD about your God? You've admitted that he isn't above murder, you've failed to dodge around his condoning of slavery, you've openly subscribed to the idea that he can kill babies and children because their parent's are wicked. What is left for God now that he has committed almost every atrocity known?

What GOOD has God down that could make up for all the evil? Or, is it possible that none of these deeds are those of a God, and that they are myths written down by the hands of imperfect men?


Lybrah 3 years ago

When you put it that way, it does make God sound bad. But it is not so much that He is an evil monster but that He is just. He punishes. Yes, babies were killed. But God wanted to make a point to people that no one messes with His chosen people. You've got to think of God like a parent--our parent--we must be disciplined when we do not act right.

God saved humanity from burning in a lake of fire. That was our destiny before Jesus came. For whatever reason, God chose not to make us perfect, and condemned all of us to burn in hell, then decided to sacrifice His son so that we would spend eternity with him in heaven.

So basically, God inflicted pain upon Himself, since Jesus was His son and part of Him, God did not even spare Himself the pain He might have caused other people.

You dwell too much on the so-called bad things God has done. But have you ever considered that He has done some really wonderful things for people, aside from saving them? I look forward to YOUR response on this only.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

What a fricking joke! What delusional person believes some god can actually make a sacrifice of anything at all? lol! A sacrifice is when someone actually gives up something they can't get back. Simply restoring the life of Jr. nullified any type of sacrifice immediately.

A sacrifice would be if dad left Jr. dead. Now that would qualify as a sacrifice. If Jr. gave his life for our sins then the whole point would be moot and we would not have to even consider sin at all. The New Testament is simply new fairy tales for the gullible. And as shown on this thread, there are still plenty examples of these folks around. lol!

sssss


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

"You've got to think of God like a parent--our parent--we must be disciplined when we do not act right."

You just said in an earlier comment that we cannot compare God to a human father!

As Randy says, What a fricking joke! You are.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Yes, babies were killed. But God wanted to make a point to people that no one messes with His chosen people"

Hitler wanted to make a point that no one messes with the Master Race, Hitler's chosen people, so he killed millions. You see you know this shit is disgusting and wrong, you know that the deeds being described are evil of the highest kind imaginable by humans, but because they are being committed by God you turn a blind eye. There's always some excuse, some dodge, something to get out of admitting the truth.

" You've got to think of God like a parent--our parent--we must be disciplined when we do not act right."

I think you've seen my youtube video on the subject. If we think of God as a parent it makes him look a thousand times worse, as he slaughters his children, gives them self-contradictory lessons, and in many cases shows little to no involvement in most of their lives.

"God saved humanity from burning in a lake of fire. That was our destiny before Jesus came."

AND WHY WAS OUR DESTINY TO BURN FOREVER? Because GOD SAID SO. God is the one who CREATED the Lake of Fire, God is the one who DECIDES who to send there. God is the final decider of all destinies. So God saved us from himself.

What sort of being creates a lake of fire and plans to torture his creations there if they disobey? Because I have trouble imagining a God any more evil than a God who would do that. Worse off he created us to be imperfect and than plans on punishing us for the imperfections he programmed into us.

" God did not even spare Himself the pain He might have caused other people."

Well actually he did, because after the Resurrection Jesus returns to life in the same body he died in and rises into Heaven to reign with power and glory forever and ever. Meanwhile many of the "wicked" people God slaughtered in the Old Testament are having the flesh melted off their bones in Hell. So no, it's not the same pain, and, in fact Jesus's death wasn't a sacrifice.

He returned to life three days later in the same body, even showed Thomas the wounds, and what's more during the Crucifixion he KNEW he would return to life afterward. Not only did he NOT sacrifice his immortal life but he didn't even sacrifice his physical body for more than three days.

"But have you ever considered that He has done some really wonderful things for people, aside from saving them?"

Hitler might have saved a few kittens from a tree, he might have had a few good policies that helped the people of Germany, but he also slaughtered millions of people. I fail to see why anyone should stop and think of the good things he did and bow down to worship the Fuhrer because of them. When it comes to our actions they speak louder than words, and someone can do a lifetime of good to be undone by one evil act. This isn't a human we're dealing with Lybrah,it's meant to be the creator of the Universe, a loving, merciful and HOLY being who cannot sin. And yet the Bible is filled with the sins that God has committed, even breaking his own rules and committing deeds that any human being with an ounce of empathy understands are wrong.

The sacrifice of Jesus, if it can be called a sacrifice at all, was not something good on God's part. It was just another act of meaningless bloodshed.

This is mythology Lybrah, none of these events in the Bible had anything to do with a God (if they happened at all). The Bible was written by men, primitive, flawed, immoral men whose God was a reflection of them. Why any modern person with a sense of right and wrong would defend such indefensible acts, such horrendous stories, and WANT them to be true still astounds me. It still astounds me that I was ever so duped as to believe it.


Randy Godwin profile image

Randy Godwin 3 years ago from Southern Georgia

It does indeed take a weak mind to be a believer. By weak, I'm referring to the ability to accept unbelievable statements from those who actually have no more knowledge than the person they are convincing. This is called willful ignorance.

sssss


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Lybrah, I do hope you are satisfied with Titen's answer. If you will only open your mind to the possibilities of life for the sake of living and stop praying to an imaginary folk tale, I know you will actually be happier. It's impossible to be happy when you believe an invisible and non-existant God or Gods "love" you.

Learn to love life and enjoy it. When you die, you die and it will be too late.


anonymous 3 years ago

God loves us? How loving is God to millions of starving people cats and dogs all over the world? Millions suffer and die from diseases grievous accidents polluted water crimes and genocides and we have a God who allows it all. The crap and horrors that go on daily in the world is prima facie evidence that there is a deficiency of some kind within God. He sent Jesus to save us but billions of people are headed for hell anyway. And the ENTIRE creation continues to be punished because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden apple thousands of years ago. This God has a hissy fit and curses and ruins His entire creation and allows Adam and Eves sin to be passed on to ALL future unborn humans ensuring that the world is fucked and ruined. Execuse my language. This unfair unjust unreasoning unforgiving God in Genesis Chapter 3 is the cruelest stupidest and the most unjust and the most insane being imaginable. This is not love and mercifulness. This is cruelty insanity and gross stupidity. He gives us free will and then expects us to love Him and worship Him and keep His commandments and believe Jesus and expects perfection from us. How can He expect perfection from imperfect beings? The free will He gave us is not a gift and not a blessing. Free will has ruined human nature and has ruined the creation. And no one has total free will. Nature nurture biology genes and societal upbringing also dictates and determines human behavior whether good or bad. Allowing Satan and demons the free will to tamper corrupt screw and ruin with the creation and with human beings is irresponsible immoral imsane and stupid. If Satan and demons are to blame as some point out then why does God allow these evil beings to cause all this cruelty and havoc ad nauseam ad infintum? This God is just not right in the head. Maybe God is not powerful enough or not smart enough and maybe its Satan and demons who are winning. On a Biblical level the God of the Bible is both loving and unloving. The Biblical God has both good and evil in Him. This God is the original Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde who existed eons before the 1886 novel appeared. This God has a cruel dangerous dark side and is an egomaniac who only cares about people worshipping Him and keeping His commandments and believing Jesus. It doesn't matter to Him how horrible our lives are. He has no solution to offer us. He allows us to remain in our sinfulness and allows us to suffer and die in a cruel dangerous screwed up world. He doesn't know how to help and doesn't know how to heal. This God of the Bible is more cruel than loving. Just read the Bible objectively and just look at the world around you. Allowing thousands to millions of years of evil suffering death and extinctions is a DISGRACE. This is not love. This is criminal cruelty criminal negligence criminal insanity criminal stupidity criminal incompetence.

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