God's Damned Creation

Introduction

One of the deepest flaws of Biblical creationism is that it fails to offer a satisfying explanation to anything we see in nature. The answers that creationism offers about life's origins are laughably simplistic and lack the depth required to explain the immense bio-diversity we observe. This leaves unbelievers like me curious as to how much thought creationists have put into the creation account.

During my time as an Old Earth creationist there were many aspects of life on Earth that I never even considered but which I can now see would be utterly baffling to that past version of myself. Back then I was far too busy denying evolution to bother backing up creationism and had I been devoted to proving creationism I would have soon found said proof to be absent.

In this hub I want to talk about flaws in the Biblical creation account and how they make no sense or fail to account for what we observe in nature. I'm also going to touch upon the beliefs of many creationists regarding where all the danger and evil of our world originate.

The Fall and the Curse

In the Book of Genesis God creates everything, but particularly the creation account focuses on the creation of Earth and life upon it. After they are placed in the Garden it doesn't take long for Adam and Eve to commit Original Sin by the simple act of eating magical fruit. Along with this Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there is at least one other magical tree in the Garden, that being the Tree of (eternal) Life. God was afraid that his newly tainted creation would eat from the tree of immortality and thus live forever and so he banished them.

Never mind the strangeness of a story involving fruit with magical properties what I want to talk about is God's curse upon his creation for eating the fruit. God punishes his entire creation, the entire planet Earth presumably. This act is possibly the most unjust and evil act the Biblical God undertakes.

Many doubters have pointed out over the centuries that the Biblical God kills the firstborn children of Egypt, commands the slaughter of the citizens of Jericho and countless other cities, and drowns everyone during the Flood BUT God's curse upon his perfect creation may just be worse than all that. Why? Because, as I said, before the Fall all of creation was pristine and perfect. God, himself supposedly perfect, claims that his creation is “good” and rests upon the seventh day and there are even creationists who claim that before the Fall there was NO death of any kind.

The world was perfect and all lifeforms were living in perfect harmony without having to harm one another to survive. This means that God's curse upon Earth created essentially all the disharmony, disease and discord we observe in nature today. Everything from mosquitoes feasting upon blood, to the Black Plague, to the Holocaust are the direct result of God's actions. Yes, even the holocaust, for if there was no DEATH prior to the flood, than there could be no holocaust. It was man who brought sin into the world but, if the claims of many creationists are true, it was God's anger that brought DEATH into the world.

Many creationists believe dinosaurs and man co-existed peacefully before the Fall.
Many creationists believe dinosaurs and man co-existed peacefully before the Fall.

In today's world we humans have to be every wary of natural disasters, diseases, and dangerous animals (such as other humans for example) that are potentially violent or might even seek to eat us (usually NOT other humans). Though when God curses Adam and Eve in the Garden he generally only makes reference to a handful of changes to his creation as a result of his curse it can only be assumed from the story that all of these things are results of it. After all I doubt they had herpes in the Garden of Eden, even with all the Biblical “knowing” of one another that Adam and Eve likely did. Yet people today catch diseases all the time. These diseases couldn't have been there wreaking havoc in the beginning could they? And Satan couldn't have created them because God created everything didn't he?

The common argument made against the claims I'm making is likely to be along the lines of “our sin is what did this to creation” but this argument makes no sense and ignores the actual claims of the Bible. The Bible is what says that God cursed his creation. Sin cannot logically lead to the emergence of new lifeforms or diseases. Sin does not make maneaters out of lions or the fault-lines of the Earth shake and shift with devastating consequences. The best that can be said is that our sin is what drove God to curse his creation.

God could have forgiven Adam and Eve and wiped their sins out entirely, perhaps even wiped their memories of ever having sinned to begin with (unless you want to claim that sin is more powerful than God). So, after just having created a “good” creation, a paradise for his two humans, God corrupts his own work all because Adam and Eve made one simple mistake. This marks the first time, but not the last, that the Biblical God throws a hissy-fit over the fact that human beings (who he presumably granted Free Will) actually want to do what they WANT TO DO rather than being absolutely obedient.

For those creationists who claim that they believe in God because “JUST LOOK AT HOW BEAUTIFUL AND COMPLEX NATURE IS” please feel free to rub their noses in this hub and explain to them that if God is responsible for sunsets and a baby's laughter he's also responsible for autism and venomous spiders.

Figure C is the hip-bone of a whale, an evolutionary left-over.
Figure C is the hip-bone of a whale, an evolutionary left-over.

Vestigial Features - Does God Have a Nice Rack?

Another area where Biblical creationism fails miserably is the explanation of vestigial features which we can observe in nature. The classic example of this is generally the hip bones of whales, which help demonstrate that whales evolved from land-dwelling animals. The common creationist tactic with vestigial features is to show that the feature in question actually has a function. The problem with this is that whether or not the feature has a function is irrelevant to it's vestigiality.

Some creationists will, for example, point out that whale hip bones may actually serve a current function. The problem with this is that they are STILL HIP-BONES and there is no denying that that's what they are. Simply because an animal has found a new function for a seemingly worthless feature doesn't mean that feature wasn't part of a much older system. Obviously a whale could not use it's hip-bones as actual hip-bones because the other parts necessary for it to have legs are no longer there but that doesn't mean it couldn't find a use for what's left. A man with an amputated arm might find a use for whatever bit of it remains, this doesn't change the fact that he once had two arms.

This brings me to another classic example. Male human beings have nipples. These are clearly vestigial. Creationists usually try to get around this by claiming that the male nipple has a function, namely for sexual stimulation, however this ignores the main function of nipples, which is, duh, to give milk for the young. Do they honestly think that teats would develop ONLY for sexual stimulation? Or is it that the male nipple occurred to God independently of the female nipple?

The other typical creationist attempt to explain away nipples on men is the fact that male nipples form before sexual differentiation in the womb. Bringing up sexual differentiation amongst mammals only hurts creationism however because all embryos start out the same until this differentiation occurs. Having nipples, and indeed BEING FEMALE is thus the default (Two X-chromosomes for female, X and Y for male) and if that's the case than this brings up the following big questions.

If man was created first, why is female the default gender? Is God a female mammal of some kind? And, did Adam have nipples despite not going through any sexual differentiation process? (keep in mind Adam was never a fetus) Why do all mammals have nipples? According to the Bible man was created in God's image and yet we are clearly mammals, we even drink the milk of other mammals for ourselves. Our kinship with other mammals simply cannot be denied. Our similarities simply cannot be shrugged off with the old motto of “similar design, same designer”.

The fact is that the Bible has absolutely NO explanations for any of this, it's creation account consists of a God summoning things into existence via magic and that's all the explanation you're expected to need. Move along folks, nothing to see here, just a man springing fully formed from the dirt. Human beings, which happen to be mammals and who look and behave like apes were created just as everything else was.

So if man was made in God's image than who exactly is suckling from God's teat? And, if we are made in God's image, than surely the other apes who share so much in common with us, must be made in his image too. We share the vast majority of our DNA with chimpanzees and thus, if God has DNA, and we share much of God's DNA, than God must share much of chimpanzee DNA.

As I said, there is no explanation in the Bible for any of this. Where do diseases come from in the creationist view? Where do the imperfections of creation come from? All the nuances, the complexity, the danger, and beauty of nature, are not explained by the hollow claims of a divine creation. In a sense nature is too “magical” to be explained by magic and yet creationists constantly claim that life is TOO complex to have evolved via a complex natural process.

Conclusion

The God of the Bible has very little, if any, grasp of the concept of justice. He damns his entire creation for one act of disobedience. He does this despite presumably creating the first humans to be independent agents with free will all while depriving them of the knowledge of good and evil (thus they couldn't have known eating the fruit was wrong). The worst part is that Christianity still blames human beings for all of this, with our sinful nature accounting for everything, from when God sends a Hurricane to when our children die in infancy. The creator is responsible for his creation, the Father for his children and yet God's first act is to damn us, like an abusive Father lashing out in anger.

The Bible paints us a primitive picture of a barbaric God, one that our species and society should have long outgrown believing in. It gives us a childish and silly creation account. For all of it's limitations the endeavors of science have given us infinitely more satisfying and more verifiable answers than the empty and primitive superstitions of the past. It's the 21st century now and in this age of information it astounds me that so many still cling to such empty myths. Sure much of it is indoctrination, the same sort I was subjected to, but I think there is more to it than that, perhaps even a desire for ignorance and a fear of any knowledge that threatens to overturn a comforting myth.

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Comments 67 comments

HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

This is a well written hub and brings up a lot of good points. Much of what you pointed out is the simplistic imaginings of humans trying to make sense out of an ancient text with no frame of reference or context to ground it. This is why it doesn't hold up. But these imaginings of the texts and the texts themselves are two different things. If you use our modern knowledge gained through scientific discovery to ground these texts in actual history, it makes a lot more sense.

The original sin you refer to had everything to do with will. First I should point out the likelihood that the creation of humans in Gen1 and the creation of Adam in Gen2 are separate events. The Gen1 humans that God proclaimed as 'good' are said to have been commanded to do exactly what homo sapiens actually did. Be fruitful, multiply, fill/subdue the earth, establish dominance in the animal kingdom. Commands that took numerous generations to carry out.

Adam, who was created in a world already fully populated by humans by 10,000 BC ('others' in Gen4, sons of God/daughters of humans in Gen6), was given just one command, don't eat that fruit. What Gen1 creation illustrates is how the entirety of existence, animate or inanimate, obeyed the will of God, including the humans. Adam was the first creation that was capable of behaving contrary to God's will. A free will that propagated through their off-spring. A change that can actually be seen as dramatic behavioral changes in human history starting in southern Mesopotamia during the Ubaid period (5300-4000BC), then, after an abrupt end to Ubaid culture (Flood/Babel), picked up again during the Uruk period and spread throughout the world from there.

Disease and survival of the fittest and everything evolution explains is true. But it's the will that drives life to 'be' that remains a mystery. The driving force that propelled life to evolve and adapt and survive and procreate and continue. All of life universally propelled to 'be', as if driven by a single, unified will. Then there are humans. And with that genocide, war, slavery, as well as art and music and grand architecture and literature. All the best and worst things of humanity. The knowledge of good and evil. A free will that is both creative and destructive, capable of behaving contrary to that single, unified will that drives everything else.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Evolution makes no sense, though. How can a being "change" itself? If the whale used to walk on land, at what point was it swimming and crawling on the land, and where are the remains of such a whale? How do beings change themselves?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Hey Lybrah, I'd love to hear you explain the "nipples on males" question. God has surely explained that one to you.


The Pac-Man profile image

The Pac-Man 3 years ago

"Adam, who was created in a

world already fully populated

by humans by 10,000 BC", that has to be the funniest thing I've ever read in my life, thank you...


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Well I'm glad you're entertained, Pac-Man, but sooner or later you'll see and acknowledge it too. Whether you think the whole God part of the story is true or not, it's become blatantly obvious that all the mythologies from this region that speak of a golden age before man became possessive and male-dominant and violent are actually based on a real change in human behavior. A change that happened quickly enough as to be acknowledged and written about by humanity's first writers.

The thing is, the archaeological data that makes this so apparent is still pretty recently learned and not very widely known.

Suggested reading ....

- Saharasia: the 4000 BCE Origins of Child-Abuse, Sex-Repression, Warfare and Social Violence, in the Deserts of the Old World by James DeMeo

- The Fall: The Insanity of the Ego in Human History and the Dawning of a New Era by Steve Taylor

As for Genesis, it makes it clear that Adam was different than the humans in Genesis 1, and the rest of the book makes it clear that there was an already established population beyond Adam and his 'tribe'. Once you acknowledge that the whole idea that Adam was the first human is a misinterpretation, then you'll see that the whole rest of the bible makes way more sense.

So, you might reserve your laughter and hold off dismissing what I'm saying until you've heard the facts. It's pretty obvious and this becoming more generally acknowledged and accepted is just a matter of time.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"How can a being "change" itself?"

They don't because Individual organisms do not evolve. Evolution is genetic variation over the course of generations and is typically looked at on a population basis. Evolutionary changes don't take place in adult animals (even if they might be present in them) they are passed on via genetics.

For example, over the course of thousands of years of living in the mountains, Tibetans have evolved a special gene that allows them to thrive at high altitudes that us sea-level dwellers just don't have. This is an example of environmental pressure causing evolution, but it didn't suddenly happen because one of the Tibetans decided to "change itself", it happened naturally.

" where are the remains of such a whale?"

The evolution of whales is well documented in the fossil record. I'm no expert but I'd say what you're looking for is Amblocetus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulocetus_natans

" How do beings change themselves?"

Natural selection favors traits that are either advantageous to survival or benign. Ever heard the term survival of the fittest before? The fittest are those who live to reproductive capability and pass on their genes. So let's say we have two hypothetical types of squid, one with longer tentacles and one with shorter ones. Well the one with longer tentacles can grab it's pray from farther away so it might survive better and thus pass on the trait of longer tentacles to its offspring, pretty soon the short-armed squid would die out or be far fewer and perhaps diverge into a separate species.

I encourage you to do some research, I think you'll find that evolution makes perfect sense. It's also a simple biological fact, as well as one of the strongest theories in science.


The Pac-Man profile image

The Pac-Man 3 years ago

Why yes, it is just a matter of time before someone else suffering from cognitive bias, as all thiests do, pieces together random if not irrelevant pieces of information together to defend an otherwise straightforward account of our supposed creation. As a friend of mine once said, so many Gods, so little time, or in this case, so many creationist theories , so little validity...


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

This holds the potential to answer some really relevant and significant questions about how humans came to be as they are today. All the stuff man-made religion has injected into things over the centuries has really only confused matters. But don't let that distract from the opportunity we have here to really move forward in our understanding of ourselves. In other words, don't assume you already know better. There's no growth in it. It's the same problem theists run into. They assume they already know better, so they don't learn anything new. They only get further and further separated from reality. Don't make the same mistake.


The Pac-Man profile image

The Pac-Man 3 years ago

Is there any other kind of religion in existence that is anything but man-made?, if so, how is it different to all others?, you point out the fact that i assume to know, as if you don't, you seem to believe you have some never before considered information regarding the creation of mankind, that maybe Adam wasn't the first human on earth;

[1:27] So God created humankind

in his image, in the image of God

he created them; male and

female he created them.

[1:28] God blessed them, and God

said to them, "Be fruitful and

multiply, and fill the earth and

subdue it; and have dominion

over the fish of the sea and over

the birds of the air and over

every living thing that moves

upon the earth."

[2:7] then the LORD God formed

man from the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the

breath of life; and the man

became a living being.

These texts, correct me if I'm wrong, are the foundation of your theory, but here's where it's a miss;

[2:5] when no plant of the field

was yet in the earth and no herb

of the field had yet sprung up -

for the LORD God had not caused

it to rain upon the earth, and

there was no one to till the

ground.

Note that this quote comes after the Bible states that humankind has been created and before it says man has been created, this, to me, means that the person who wrote the book of Genesis was confused as Hell, and to think this means that there were humans before Adam and eve is totally ludicrous, if there were humans before Adam then they must have been female as the Bible says that God then created man, or they were of no particular gender, if so then what happened to that pre-Adam mankind that you suppose didn't have free will?, there are too many loose ends to your theory...


Paladin_ profile image

Paladin_ 3 years ago from Michigan, USA

Titen, I voted this hub up, but if I may offer a bit of constructive criticism, it seems to me that you've tacked two different topics here -- the first is the moral implications of Biblical creation (which is what's suggested by the title) and the second is a brief examination of the creationist/evolution debate.

Structurally or stylistically, there's nothing inherently wrong with broaching two subjects, especially when they're so closely related. However, the implications are (and it appears they're being borne out by the comments) that people will focus on the creation/evolution half and forget the initial moral focus of the hub -- which I think is much more interesting.

As for God's "damned" creation, there exists a paradox that appears to never be recognized by Biblical apologists. With a casual wave of the hand, they explain away all the evil and suffering in the world by placing the blame solely on man.

Yet man is supposedly part of a "perfect" creation, formed by a "perfect" creator. If he alone is responsible for evil and suffering, he is NOT perfect -- and never could have been (a perfect creation could never have chosen to sin). And if man was never perfect, then God's creation was not perfect.

So, if an omnipotent and omniscient God produces a flawed creation, and a part of that creation (man) fails so utterly and so disastrously that the entire world is condemned to suffering and hardship forever, who is really to blame? The creation, or the creator?


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Pac-man,

I referenced a couple of places in the same line you cut/pasted as being the funniest thing ever. Namely the 'others' that Cain feared would harm him in Gen4 and the whole bit about sons of God versus daughters of humans at the beginning of Gen6. The Gen6 bit would be a much better candidate for the 'foundation of my theory'.

But, as for the bit you're talking about, if you look into the climate of the region you'll find that it changed back and forth from having plenty of water and vegetation to an arid desert and back again. In the same age that lines up with the events of Genesis, roughly 5500 BC, the terrain matched what's described. Look into the 8.2 kiloyear event... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event

It can often be confused here because creation in Genesis 1 is described in such a global way, but Genesis 2 is clearly told in a much more geographically specific location.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks Paladin.

It seems that many of my recent hubs related to religion delve into more than one topic. I'd rather throw multiple topics into one hub than try to stretch the material too thin. I've done my best to connect the material but you're right the two aren't that closely related.

There's so many aspects of nature that the creationists would just have to explain with the answer "that's part of the Fall/Curse". Ticks with lime disease, cancerous cells, volcanic eruptions, all needing to be explained, and the best explanation they can have is one about an angry God damning his own creation.

"So, if an omnipotent and omniscient God produces a flawed creation, and a part of that creation (man) fails so utterly and so disastrously that the entire world is condemned to suffering and hardship forever, who is really to blame? The creation, or the creator?"

Precisely. God supposedly wanted beings with free will capable of disobedience and making their own individual choices. But the moment that one of their choices violates his will he curses the entire creation. How unrealistic is it to expect beings made purposefully imperfect to remain perfect? And then to judge them by his perfect standards, how could they possibly have avoided damnation after being set up to fail in such a guaranteed way?

I guess the overall idea of the hub is that the imperfection and complexity of nature aren't at all explained in the Biblical creation account or the mythologies and beliefs that have grown out of it.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

It is just so useless to argue with creationists as they have such an ingrained automatic answer. All of the really cool stuff was done by God and all of the not so cool stuff was done by Satan or God's anger at being so inept at creationism. The theory that Satan was created by God with free will to do evil is just so much icing on their cake.

If you simply accept the infinite time theory, then all things are possible and whatever CAN happen, WILL happen - eventually. No God needed.

And BTW, seriously, why do creationists think the universe was created, yet cannot explain how God came into being all by himself from nothing at all. Who or what created God?

If you can accept that God is beyond the universe/time/evolution/creationism, then you should be able to accept that the universe itself (and everything in it) is beyond time/evolution/creationism.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Titen-Sxull and Paladin,

I voted this up and interesting because it's a discussion I agree needs to be had. I think Titen was right to mix the two because they are so closely related. Keep in mind that much of what's been made about morality is based more on the ideas born of religions whose focus had more to do with controlling the masses. Or, controlling the behavior of pesky free-willed beings.

I think free will is the whole point. It's what makes sense of the rest of it. If you think of God, not as the small-minded man-made version taught by religious institutions, but rather as the creator of the complex world we're discovering through science, I think you'll find it makes more sense.

Humans have proven capable of being incredibly destructive, even though we each only live a handful of decades. If nature is God's creation and the laws of nature are God's will, then our free willed minds are the anomaly in that equation. We're like cancerous cells that don't conform to the authority of the body's DNA. Ultimately, that kind of behavior can become a danger to the rest of the body, just as we've proven capable of endangering the delicate balance of this ecosystem that sustains us.

And its that acknowledgement of HIs authority that God requires. That's what makes it possible. I don't see this as a curse or punishment for behaving in a way that simply comes naturally to us. I see this as simply necessary for free will to exist. If an eternal afterlife is the goal, as the bible describes, then this life experience would prove a good knowledge base for wielding such a powerful capability as free will. We have an idea of how far reaching the effects of our choices and actions can have, but only God would really know the full extent.

The way I see it, God really only had 3 choices; no existence, existence with everything animate or inanimate behaving exactly according to His will, or existence that includes beings with their own minds and own wills. So, how would you go about making that happen without your creation ultimately undoing everything you've done? We've proven most capable when we collaborate. As long as there is a clear authority or chain of command, or a clear end goal, we can do incredible things. Having free willed beings who all acknowledge the maker as the authority, and operate within that realm, would be an incredible thing. Like a second cambrian explosion. But behavior, morality, is an inherent piece of the puzzle if a will is truly free. What's described I see as being simply necessary.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"Having free willed beings who all acknowledge the maker as the authority, and operate within that realm, would be an incredible thing. Like a second cambrian explosion. But behavior, morality, is an inherent piece of the puzzle if a will is truly free. What's described I see as being simply necessary."

The problem I have with this is trying to recognize which deity we're going to assume is the one true authority. Religion and the deities it worships have been used as methods of controlling people and supporting human authority figures for thousands of years. So the real question I have to all this is WHY, of all the thousands of deities mankind has worshiped, would we ever choose the Biblical God? There's certainly no scientific evidence or solid evidence of any kind propping that God up above the others and there are plenty of moral and logical objections that leave both modern and ancient beliefs surrounding Yahweh defunct or perhaps even disproved altogether.

What reason would we have to recognize the authority of a God who, according to scripture, condoned slavery and commanded genocide. It seems to me that all those stories were penned by human beings and have no connection to any God (if there is a god).

" A change that can actually be seen as dramatic behavioral changes in human history starting in southern Mesopotamia during the Ubaid period (5300-4000BC), then, after an abrupt end to Ubaid culture (Flood/Babel), picked up again during the Uruk period and spread throughout the world from there."

Assuming for sake of argument that this fundamental change in human behavior really did occur why would we assume or require a supernatural explanation for it? If suddenly human beings began to behave differently there might have been ancient writers attempting to explain it, and thus the Genesis account could still just be a myth meant to explain man's rise to civilization. A myth relating how man put away his nakedness and began building towers to the Heavens instead of just hanging out in the Garden eating whatever fruit was hanging there.

Such an event doesn't make much sense, as human beings crossed the Bering-Strait land bridge over 10,000 years ago, and the bridge would likely have been gone by the time period in question. So why do we see free will in Native American and Meso-American peoples? Or isn't it genetic?

"All of life universally propelled to 'be', as if driven by a single, unified will."

I'm pretty sure that the desire to survive and procreate are well explained as natural instincts. I don't think we need anything spooky or supernatural to give life a will to survive and I also don't think human beings are the only animals who practice genocide, war, or slavery. Ants have been known to attack other colonies and conscript those they conquer into their colony, chimpanzees fashion crude spears and go to "war" against rival groups, dolphins have been known to kill for seemingly no reason.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

I apologize ahead of time for the length of my response. Believe it or not I really did try to keep it brief, but there’s a lot to cover here.

Regarding your ‘why Yahweh’ statement, that is the God you’re speaking about, and for good reason. Technically, yes, there are many gods who have been worshiped in human history, but only one who is still believed in and worshiped by half the world’s population to this day. As for evidence, you should first ask yourself what evidence of God’s existence would look like. What would you expect to see that we don’t see that would prove He really does exist?

As far as saying the God of Genesis ‘condoned slavery’ or ‘commanded genocide’, especially now that it’s possible to assign proper context to the setting in which these stories are told, it’s important to take that into consideration. There’s a tendency to think of God as being all-powerful and therefore fully responsible for everything going on in those stories. The 4th millennium BC is notably one of the most violent ages in human history. Contrary to popular belief, humans were peaceful for tens of thousands of years, even after the discovery of farming where densely populated regions began to form. Those behavioral changes that surfaced in that age made for an extremely hostile environment, especially in an age before there were established borders and laws of the land. We tend to look at God’s commands regarding slavery and genocide through modern eyes and see it as appalling or immoral. But what we don’t generally consider is that that is the environment that free-willed humans created for themselves. A free will that God wanted us to have and that He respects. The fact is, in that age and in that region, those who did not take a plot of land by force to sustain their people, who did not have slave labor, did not survive. As for slavery, though we see it as immoral, in that age it was a way of life. Either you were a member of the people who ruled a particular land by force, you were a slave who was provided for and protected by those in power, or you were out in the open fending for yourself where survival was all but impossible. What God commanded of the Israelites shouldn’t necessarily be seen as God’s ideal model for ‘correct’ human behavior. They were more specific to those people in that region to allow them to survive by working within the confines of the environment humans created for themselves.

As for the behavioral changes themselves and their mythological explanations, you’re right. This doesn’t necessarily mean there was a God involved. My point had more to do with first recognizing whether or not there’s any relevance to this before being so quick to dismiss it. Much of what you spoke about is based more on ideas created by religious institutions based on these texts over the centuries. We’re now finding out that there’s more than likely some historical relevance for what’s being described. Whether or not there was really a God involved, understanding context assigns relevance and meaning to the texts that many are quick to dismiss, again based more on what humans have made of them in the centuries since. Remember, even during Jesus’ time the books of Moses were a mystery. So its not like humans in the centuries before now had any clearer insight. Long story short, don’t be so quick to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. That was my main point. I wanted to provide an alternate explanation to consider, rather that dismissing everything based on religious principles. It's important to differentiate the two.

As for the people of the pre-Columbian Americas, you make a good point. For the most part, native Americans didn’t behave any differently than any other tribal culture for tens of thousands of years until they came in contact with others of ‘civilized’ societies. The possible exceptions to this are, of course, the Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, and Olmecs. But, as it turns out, there’s reason to think they may have actually come from pre-Columbian peoples who arrived in the Americas from China long before Columbus. There’s similarities in their linguistics, in their diets and eating habits, artwork and quite a few other things. Specifically with the Olmecs, who are thought to be where all three of the others, Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, stem from.

And as for the will of living creatures to survive and procreate as being instincts, you’re right. They are. Just as your body instinctively wants to live even if you consciously do not. Keep in mind that if God is the creator of nature, then looking for something ‘supernatural’ as being of God, and the lack of anything ‘supernatural’ as being lack of proof of God, is tricky. Afterall, what is ‘supernatural’, and how do you detect or observe it through the practices of the physical sciences? It could maybe just be that the instincts to survive and procreate were simply among the first established genetic traits, but whatever the case they had to be established from the beginning. That will, or those instincts, undoubtedly exist, and if the creation account as described has any truth to it, then those ‘natural’ instincts would be ‘of God’. Whether or not a real God is involved, we’re dealing with a will that is apart from our conscious will. And without God, free will doesn't really make sense as it violates natural law. Either we're biological machines with determined behaviors, or there's a lot more we have to figure out and we're in no position to rule anything out for certain.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

"Either we're biological machines with determined behaviors, or there's a lot more we have to figure out and we're in no position to rule anything out for certain."

This is the best thing I've heard from a pro religion view in a long time. I think progress is being made here.

But I disagree about the slavery thing. Maybe slaves were much less intelligent and couldn't fend for themselves. I have trouble understanding why suppressed people just accept their slavery. As we see in all societies, eventually, the suppressed people rise up and overthrow their tyrants. This is happening all over the middle east again and again. I can only think it happened time and time again in the past. I don't blame them, but why not get rid of the 'religious' reasons and call a spade a spade?


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

I appreciate that, Austinstar, and appreciate anytime a rational conversation can be had. It doesn't happen nearly often enough.

As you said, there are many examples of enslaved people not accepting their slavery, and at some point rising up and fighting against those in power. If you look into it, you'll see that slavery has been ever-present since the dawn of civilization. Its just another result of that behavioral change. The strong and powerful inflict their will on all around them. If you're unable to fight against it, you were either enslaved or killed. But keep in mind, especially in the era being discussed here, there wasn't much alternative and a slave life wasn't as bad as we tend to think of it today. Where in the case of slavery in American history, you're talking about people taken from their native land and their people and forced to do slave labor on the other side of the world. In that age and region the slave labor was made up of the people of those lands. When you overtook a plot of land, something had to be done with the inhabitants. Sure, you could try to cohabitate or force them from their land and send them on their way, and that was done too, but due to the adverse climate and the constant conflict between budding societies and violent nomadic tribes, maintaining the survival of your people, especially when the population numbered in the hundreds of thousands, practically required it. Slavery in that age was one of the few alternatives that offered protection and provisions for you and your family.

The main point here, however, is that this was the norm established by humans. In the context of there being a God and free will being introduced through Adam, this established norm was the 'choice' of humans choosing their own behaviors. Human behavior defines our history. Slavery is the result of it, and so are the uprisings of those enslaved. It's human nature to want to live and act without repression. Religion, at least in my mind, was another means to control free-willed behavior through fear. I am a believer, but I don't associate with any specific religion. I do see and understand the negative reactions people have as I share many of those same feelings. I find it monumentally important to make the distinction between what humans have made of God and religion and who/what God really is. If we're looking to answer the big questions regarding who we are and where we come from, then its important to make the distinction and understand how humans have played a role. The religions of the world were established by people who had even less of an understanding of the natural world than we do. So I try to encourage consideration for and contemplation of a God in the context of our modern view. If we're going to try to make a determination, then lets make sure we have a good grasp of what it is exactly that we're looking for.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

I assume, SwordofManticorE, that that bible verse was meant for me? Going with that assumption... if Adam were the first being capable of free will, or a will apart from God's, then only Adam and anyone 'of Adam/Eve' would be capable of wickedness or sin or behavior that is of their own volition that is apart from God's and therefore potentially conflicting with God's will. Anyone not 'of Adam/Eve' would not make willful choices or actions of their own will, so therefore would not be subject to judgement. Does that address your point?


busillis22 profile image

busillis22 3 years ago

And yet, the God of the Bible also comes as a human being and suffers a brutal death to undo the curse. Why would He do that if he were uncaring and unloving?

I think that if you are going to make a claim about the Christian God's character based on one of the actions Christians believe He committed - you should judge Him by the rest of the actions they also claim.

I found your hub very interesting and thought-provoking, thank you for it.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

The whole reason about Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience is my Father's plan to bring us all back home eventually. The parable of the prodigal son can be interpretated many ways. I once heard that the younger and older brother are not two sons. They are an anology of what my Father's will is for us all. He could of kept us all with Him in heaven, but He wanted us to experience a body experience. When you see that the younger brothers was grateful for His Father's love when he returned apposed to the older brother that stayed with his father and lacked the appreciation of his Father's love. In the end, we are all prodigal sons believers and unbelievers alike. For our Father is the saviour of all, especially believers like myself (1Tim4:9=11). Thank you for this hub thumbs up


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

Thanks for the comment.

The sacrifice of Jesus, if can be called a sacrifice (considering Jesus merely lost his physical life for three days before regaining it to reign in power and glory forever and ever), just makes God look even worse in my opinion. Why would he need such a bloodthirsty act as a ritual sacrifice (Jesus is the lamb of God remember) to undo a curse he put into place to begin with. That and the fact that Christian doctrine allows anyone, regardless of how evil their sins are, to offer sincere repentance and get into Heaven, while people who try their damnedest to live a good life but don't accept Christ are damned to Hell.

A few hours of suffering on the cross and a handful of post-Resurrection appearances later and Jesus, once a poor carpenter, was ruling Heaven and Earth at the right hand of God, that's not a sacrifice, it's a promotion.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Our Father made standards and laws for the Jews of Israel to follow. There was no way that they or anyone for that matter could follow the commandments. He told Israel to kill an unblemish lamb dury every feast of the passover which would eventually lead to Christ's sacrifice as the last sacrifice. It was the only way we could learn and discover who our Father is and His love for all. Yes it was a horrible death, but Christ chose to go through with it because of His love for both our Father and mankind. Before His death, all who died sleeped the long sleep of death without knowing anything. His death gave us all life. there is nothing both you and I can do to receive reconciliation with our Father, because it was all done on the cross when He "it is finished". Take care.


Lybrah 3 years ago

We're ALL bad. The bible says the heart is wicked. Even those who try to live a good life and not accept God, are bad. We're all in the same boat because we are all sinners. Like SwordOfWhatever says, we're all the prodigal sons. I see your argument that its not fair for mass murderers in prison to get saved, nor is it fair for some very good person to go to hell, but if you accept that ALL of us are damned, then it doesn't seem so unfair. God did curse His own creation, but I think I mentioned before that God is a just God and that He has to discipline His children. Why did He bother to make people only to damn them--I don't know. But it is what it is.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Lybrah. If you are referring to eternal hell or torture in hell as a just dicipline for His children, then I have to ask you this. Is God's dicipline in hell corrective or vindictive?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

"And yet, the God of the Bible also comes as a human being and suffers a brutal death to undo the curse. Why would He do that if he were uncaring and unloving?"

Why indeed?

Worshipping a God or Gods that goes about forgiving his own creation in this way makes absolutely no sense to any sane person.

No other religion in the world came up with this bizarre way of finding the road to heaven.

Every time I accidentally see the extremely tortured man on the cross I wonder how it became the defining icon of Christianity.

I mean, if God wanted to undo his own "curse", why didn't he just say, "Excuse me, my bad."


Lybrah 3 years ago

You cannot live your life for yourself and expect to get into heaven without accepting the free gift of Jesus. You wouldn't walk up to a celebrity's house and expect them to let you live in their mansion when you are not a fan and they are total strangers...that's how it is with God and us. If you choose not to know Him in this life, then you can expect to have nothing to do with Him in the next. I guess you can say that that punishment is vindictive, if you want, but like I said before, you just gotta accept that it is what it is.


Lybrah 3 years ago

Maybe this "mistake" that God made wasn't a mistake at all...maybe He purposefully made us imperfect and sent His son to die for us because He has a plan that we don't know about! We don't know everything about God...He has chosen not to reveal His origin (if He has one) to us for a reason. Everything happens for a reason.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

A punishment that is vindictive is neither dicipline or just. It is cruel and cruelty and injustice go hand in hand.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

@Lybrah, now you are starting to make sense in regards to your last comment.


Lybrah 3 years ago

It is what it is, SwordofWhatever. We choose to sin EVERY day of our lives. We are responsible for the rift with God and the judgement He brings.


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SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Just call me sword, and you are right it is what it is. This whole thing about living in the flesh is to experience sin and therefore when we are judged, we will be judged as Christ judged the adulterouse, for Christ is a true representation of our Father (Heb1)


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

This is an attempt to find some common ground between two opposing views on a topic that cannot be grounded in observable/empirically factual information to maybe allow for more constructive dialogue.

Regarding physical existence, life/death is one element at play here that we have absolutely no conceptual grasp of. All we know is that there is no molecular difference between living and dead organic matter. When an organism is biologically alive, by definition, it exhibits a host of behaviors; homeostasis, organization, growth, metabolism, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction. When its dead it simply doesn't. This is consistent across the board. We also know that everything alive today represents the latest link in an unbroken chain of living creatures that goes all the way back to the primordial pool where life first began.

Now, if we are truly nothing more than biological/mechanical creatures, then it makes sense that at the point of death we simply cease to exist because the brain ceases to function. However, if we truly have a free will, as in a will not fully determined by our biological/physical make-up, but are in fact capable of behavior that is not solely dependent on our 'chemistry', then there is a part of us that does not conform to physical law. And, assuming that 'part' does not conform because it itself is not physical, then there is no hope of detecting it via the physical sciences.

Now, if there is a part of us that is non-physical, we have no way of knowing what happens to that part of us beyond physical death. We do know that physical death is a vital part of the ecological balance of this physical world and serves a necessary purpose. It stands to reason that if there is a non-physical element at play as well, then its process would most likely be handled in much the same way as everything else; systematically and consistently.

If there is any validity to the idea that a free will existing within the confines of this existence is the equivalent of a cancerous cell in an organism that does not adhere to the authority of that system's DNA, then it would make sense that that element would be treated as a 'foreign' object and potential threat to the system, much in the same way a physical body behaves when it detects a 'foreign' and potentially harmful element.

So, hypothetically, in that context, does it not make sense that there would be a process in place to protect against potentially harmful non-physical elements entering into that next stage, beyond the veil of death, whatever it may be? I tend to think of God, not as an unreasonable being, but much like a white blood cell in a body. It's not that He's being mean or vindictive, its simply His unchanging consistent nature. Free will, by nature, has repercussions. Otherwise, if there were no risk or reward or potential for harm or failure, then choices and actions would have no weight and no meaning. So, it makes sense to me that if God were to create an element in this existence that by nature is an anomaly in that system, that He would also make possible a way to circumvent the inevitable end of that non-conforming potentially harmful element to allow for that dynamic, yet potentially destructive, element to continue to exist. This physical existence with its dangers and repercussions, would be the perfect environment to foster such a capability.

Thoughts?


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Whoa! Headly, you are preaching to the choir!

"we have no way of knowing what happens to that part of us beyond physical death"

That's it in a nutshell, we have no way of knowing. The Christians BELIEVE they know, but that is just a belief. The theists BELIEVE they know, but again, they do not. Atheists BELIEVE they know, but are only deceiving themselves.

I believe the truth lies in your statement, "We do know that physical death is a vital part of the ecological balance of this physical world and serves a necessary purpose."

However, I disagree with the metaphysical statement that "there is a non-physical element at play as well"

To me, the universe is composed of matter and energy. For some reason, mankind is driven to provide 'purpose' to all of this. It matters not. We are what we are and that is all we ever will be.

Spirituality, no matter how amazing and wonderful it all seems to be, is just a different definition of infinite matter and energy.


anonymous 3 years ago

The Biblical God is unfair unjust spiteful egomaniacal megalomaniacal tyrannical homicidal genocidal ruthless irrational insane irresponsible negligent incomptetent and cruel to the umpteenth degree. He has a Jekyll and Hyde personality as can be seen in His conflicting contradictory behavior in the Bible and in the Nature He created. The same God who made roses also made cancer. The experiment with free will and Adam and Eve was a ticking time bomb and a recipe for disaster and tragedy. The creation was set up to be screwed. Notice in God's initial warning to Adam and Eve that He never mentions anything about sin diseases violence killing hurricanes tsunamis cruelty to animals birth defects deformities physical ugliness and the loneliness that goes with it venoms poisons parasites mass starvation crimes wars genocides. God's initial warning to Adam and Eve was directed d only for Adam and Eve. God never bothers telling them that if they disobeyed and ate the forbidden fruit sin would be introduced to ALL future humanity. And God never tells them about animal suffering and death in His initial warning. After Adam and Eves sin ALL future humans must be born with a sinful nature meriting punishment in this life and meriting eternal punishment in hell and ALL creation is cursed and punished. Innocent animals have to suffer and die as well as sinful humans. So the world lost paradise and gained a hell because Adam and Eve ate a forbidden fruit eons ago. What was a talking tempting snake doing in the Garden of Eden? That's like allowing a child molester with your children. This unfair unjust unreasoning irrational God decides ro ruin and flush the entire creation down the toilet because of Adam and Eves sin and He refuses to forgive them. This is cruelty and injustice. It's a travesty. This is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So I have to born a sinner and I have to be born physically ugly and I have to be forever lonely as I don't have a girlfriend (where is my Eve? There is no Eve for me) and Im in danger of hellfire because of Adam and Eves sin or for something that happened thousands of years before I was even born. Its damn unfair. That's Adam and Eves choice. Its NOT my choice. Its NOT my will. Im lonely day in and day out and year in and year out and this cruel unjust unreasoning ruthless irresponsible negligent unkind unforgiving God wont help m get a single girlfriend and allows me to suffer from endless loneliness. That's cruel and inhumane. That's disgusting and despicable. This God has ruined my life and has ruined the lives of countless other people. This God has abandoned His creatures and has abdicated th world to the Devil. This God is the cruelest most insane most unjust and the stupidest being imaginable. What a dunce w have for a God. Im embarrassed and ashamed to call myself a Bible believing Christian. Millions of people and countless animals suffer and die every uear from disease starvation and accidents and countless animals are killed and eaten by other animals and by human beings. The world is a slaughterhouse. Heart disease stroke aneurysm cancer malaria anthrax ebola centipedes jellyfish brown recluse spiders car accidents mass starvation loneliness depression mental illness etc continue to inflict suffering and death. Im fuming angry. This God is cruel to the umpteenth degree. Unworthy of worship. This screwed up world is a lost cause ruled by the Devil. Satan the Devil rules this screwed up world. A loving wise sane God does not. Ive known this for years.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Wow, anonymous, that was an incredibly powerful out-pour of emotion. Your feelings are palpable. The world is a harsh place, you're right. But what if it wasn't? What would that world even be like? If there were no pain, nothing to fear, no danger? No risk to make the reward meaningful? No pain or sadness to contrast those moments of bliss or to gain appreciation for those fleeting and infrequent moments when they arrive? What if everyone looked the same? What would beautiful be if everyone fit the bill of what's deemed conventional beauty in today's society? And what if every single person treated you and every other person the exact same way? Isn't that what makes those few relationships you have in life, no matter how long or short lived, meaningful? If there's no danger, no harm ever done, no one ever hurt or lonely, then there's no weight to choices and actions or connections to other people. They're meaningless. Even death gives life meaning and purpose. Makes it urgent. Makes each day matter that much more. Because if your days were infinite, if your pleasure was constant, then there'd be no concept of what happiness even is, and no urgency to really do anything or be anyone. Even the pain you expressed, that frustration. It matters to you, and it matters to you to express it, to say it, and for it to be heard. And it's all those things you listed and more that makes it matter. I hope I'm not overstepping, I just felt compelled to reply because I was moved by what you wrote. I hope you one day find your happiness because I think you'll appreciate it and hold onto it more sincerely than many will ever know or be capable of.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Austinstar,

This is where the alternative view always trips me up. I can see the universe and this planet coming to be the way it is, though it requires accepting the natural laws are just the exact right conditions to allow for life to exist as it does today. I can even see the evolution of physical life through random mutation, natural selection, and adaptation to the environment. Where I have trouble is with intelligence capable of figuring out its own existence coming about from a completely non-intelligent process.

Then there's the purpose and meaning we assign to life. It's important to us. True, our capability to reason gives us knowledge of our mortality, but it takes more than just knowledge of our eventual demise to make something meaningful to a biological machine. Why do we care? Is it just an extension of our mammalian instincts to nurture?

If the universe wasn't created by a God or any form of purposeful creator, then existence has no real meaning. Like you said, it matters not. And anything we think matters doesn't really, it's just something we imagine to make ourselves feel better about it.

But, the thing is, we know there's at least one thing that most definitely exists that is metaphysical; our conscious minds. Physically, the brain is nothing more than firing neurons, oxygenated blood, and chemical happenings. We can't observe the mind. The only reason we even know its there is because we each experience it for ourselves. And because we do, we have to just assume that everyone else does too in much the same way. But there's really no way of knowing because you can't observe it. It's non-physical, and therefore unobservable and unquantifiable by the physical sciences.

So, if there's at least one thing that we know for certain that exists, yet is not physically observable, especially something as dynamic and capable of creativity as the human mind, what are the chances its the only thing in existence that's just as dynamic and capable of creativity, yet total undetectable? I just can't see an intelligent, reasoning, self-aware mind coming about from a completely non-intelligent random chaotic process.

And I find it difficult to dismiss the human intuition that has brought us to where we are today when it seems the default state of the vast majority of humans throughout history felt there is a higher power of some kind. We went from feeling connected to the natural world that formed us, that its spiritually alive and a part of us, to disconnected ourselves from it and even inflicting our will to bend it to work for us ever since we developed such a strong sense of "I" and started thinking so much for ourselves.

True, spirituality and the happenings after death isn't something you can empirically 'know' or show anybody else, but it is something that the vast majority of humanity has always felt. The only exceptions being in those ages when accumulated knowledge made it possible for some thinkers to reason and rationalize away those feelings. Whatever religion and spirituality is, its something made by and meaningful to humanity. Maybe its just something we had to invent that got us through until we could reach the point that we no longer need it, but I have a hard time dismissing such a large part of what the ancestors that got us here in the first place were because of some newly gained knowledge about this place.


anonymous 3 years ago

Im not saying the world shouldn't have any dangers or contrasts. The problem is the sheer quantity of evil and suffering and the horrific nature of certain kinds of evil and suffering. The agony from cancer heart disease aneurysm stroke ebola botulism starvation drowning suffocation incineration decapitation being crushed and being buried alive in coffins vaults holes in the ground etc are monstrous. Its also cruel and inhumane to be forced to live without a girlfriend and to be forever lonely as in my case. There is more evil than is required to provide contrast and character building. Evil suffering and death can break a persons character. It can drive a person to anger and fear. It can make one angry at God and can lead to agnosticism atheism turning to phony religions and even turning to Satanism. It has driven people to suicide. It has caused heresy blasphemy and apostasy. I don't mind risks that can build character. The problem is some kinds of evil and suffering are so horrific it looks like something out of a horror movie


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

@Lybrah,

"nor is it fair for some very good person to go to hell, but if you accept that ALL of us are damned, then it doesn't seem so unfair"

How do you figure that? God has the option to damn NO ONE. He can destroy Hell if he wants and send no one to burn there. So how exactly does a world where everyone is born damned make things less unfair? The very existence of something like Hell makes God into a monster, even if he provides some twisted unjust loophole by which his creations can get out of it.

"You cannot live your life for yourself and expect to get into heaven without accepting the free gift of Jesus."

Jesus' gift is free? I generally don't think "accept my sacrifice or burn for eternity" as a free gift. Essentially Jesus is saying that you can either bow before him as a slave, or remain free and burn forever. Either recognize him as your Lord and Master or you will suffer eternal torment. This isn't a free gift, it's a hostage situation, and you've just admitted that you have to accept it, trying to live a good life "for yourself" isn't enough.

"You wouldn't walk up to a celebrity's house and expect them to let you live in their mansion when you are not a fan and they are total strangers...that's how it is with God and us."

Actually a more fitting analogy is that a celebrity comes up to your house and threatens to burn it down and kill you, or you can accept their free gift and come live in their mansion and do what they say and worship them as their number one fan for all eternity.

"you just gotta accept that it is what it is. "

No you don't. There's no substantial evidence for this God's existence and even if there were why would anyone bow to such a psychopath? I could see bowing in cowardice, in fear, but if such a God did exist I think I'd much rather be in Hell. To bow before a monster you must, in some way, become one yourself.

"..maybe He purposefully made us imperfect and sent His son to die for us because He has a plan that we don't know about!"

According to the Bible God's plan is to return in wrath and glory killing most of the human beings on Earth and putting those who remain through horrific torture before finally damning the majority of human beings to gnash their teeth in a swirling Lake of Fire designed for Lucifer and the fallen angels.

So unless you want to contradict scripture, God's plan pretty much sucks, and, as is usual with Yahweh, involves him committing horrible atrocities.


SwordofManticorE profile image

SwordofManticorE 3 years ago from Burlington

Sadly TS, most Christians worship the image found in Dan 3:1-6.


gjean profile image

gjean 3 years ago from Winter Haven, Florida

The Biblical account of creation was not written to explain creation to us, especially those of us in the 21st century. If one compares the Biblical creation account with other creation accounts of the time period, the differences between the accounts are stark. In the other creation accounts, the gods are vindictive, manipulative and man is created to work as slaves or to irritate another god. In the Biblical account, man is the center of creation. The world, the garden, and all the animals were created for man to rule over.

Evangelicals have taken the Biblical account and tried to make it say what it was not intended to say. It was not intended to answer all of our science questions or date issues. The account was written to illustrate how the Israelites' God was different the gods of other cultures.

ANY BOOK has two audiences: the one right then and those who read it later. If we (Christian and non-Christian) in the "later" group understood the meaning to the original audience, we would appear less foolish.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

Whoa! I think we may have found that cop they have been looking for in Los Angeles! (Anonymous) He seems to be at the end of his rope here. Fear not, Anon. There really is no god and if you want a girlfriend, you are just going to have to calm the freak down and learn to get along with the world the way it is.

Whew!

That being said, he does make the point that the imaginary God indulges in extreme overkill to make his point! Which makes our point as well. (God damned his own creation)

@Headly - you said, "But there's really no way of knowing because you can't observe it. It's non-physical, and therefore unobservable and unquantifiable by the physical sciences."

You can't see electricity either or black holes or gravity or tons of other matter/energy. So, yes, we can observe the mind, we just need special tools or powers of observation. It's definitely there, but it doesn't need the imaginary God thing. Again, it's just a common argument used by theists. When you can't see something that is extremely complicated, it must be the "only God can do it" scenario.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Austinstar,

You can measure and quantify electricity and gravity. There is no comparison between them and the mind. They're consistent and follow certain rules that makes them predictable. The mind is a whole other thing entirely. Like the minds at work here debating existential matters. There's no reducing this to a formula that allows us to calculate and predict behavior. And I'm not making an 'only God can do it' argument. I'm telling you my reasons for why the materialism viewpoint doesn't jive for me. The mind is something that undoubtedly exists, yet we wouldn't know anything about it if we didn't experience it ourselves. Especially given all we know now, the likelihood that our minds are the only thing in existence in all the universe is highly unlikely. It just tells me there's potential for incredible things to be going on in this universe beyond the realm of what's observable.

I get that man-made religion has given many plenty of reason and motivation to rationalize an alternative that doesn't involve the God they describe, but can't get on board with the idea that everything just happened to come together as it has on its own. I'm more of the mindset of Einstein when he said, "You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being." Though he too rejected the idea of a personal God as described by Christianity and others, the harmony he saw in the cosmos led him to believe there was an intelligence at work, just more of a Spinoza version of a God.

Personally, I see harmony between the God as described in Genesis and the history of this natural world as we understand it today. After all, there were numerous mass extinction events that edited life along the way that made it as it is today. The God of the bible, to me, is a further extension of what's seen throughout the history of the earth, beginning with yet another evolutionary development that propelled our species forward (free will/sharpened ego or sense of "I") and followed by another edit through a mass extinction event, in this case a flood. It's just the latest of many edits that resulted in humanity as it exists today and fits right in with patterns we see throughout the process.


Austinstar profile image

Austinstar 3 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

" The mind is something that undoubtedly exists, yet we wouldn't know anything about it if we didn't experience it ourselves."

We wouldn't know anything about anything if we "didn't experience it ourselves".

Someday we will be able to quantify and measure the mind. We can already measure brain waves, different stages of sleep, what parts of the brain control what. It's just a question of time.

It's still a combination of Matter (the brain) and Energy (the thoughts).

"can't get on board with the idea that everything just happened to come together as it has on its own"

It obviously has come together as is.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

That view, to me, is just another form of faith. Faith that one day we'll conclude for certain that it's all just matter and energy. But that would also mean that we're just biological machines whose behaviors are fully determined by our physical/chemical/biological make-up. That would make holding someone accountable for their actions unjust, as it wasn't really their choice. And if you think they actually did have a choice then that doesn't jive with the laws that matter and energy adhere to.

How do you assign all that is human nature to a mechanical process? True, our brains process the physical world through our senses and gives us the capability to imagine and conceptualize. But then there's the 'decider' part of us. What we willfully want or what we feel passionately about. Like whatever it is that compels us to come here and have these discussions. Are we just predisposed by our biological make-up and our past experience to come here and debate?

To me there's very little about what makes us uniquely human that shares any kind likeness to matter and energy and the laws that govern them. Up to a point, yes, it works. But that applies just as well to any vertebrate depending on the size and complexity of the brain. I can even see it extending to primal homo sapiens and even those of indigenous cultures that exist through to this day who haven't bred outside their ancestral roots and have had little to no contact with 'civilized' humans. Their behaviors are for the most part predictable, and falls much more in line with what I would view to be determinism. But even in that case where the physical body and physical brains are identical, our behaviors and the will that compels them are dramatically different. And that difference can be traced right back to the same time and place in which the events of Genesis are set. It's the same difference that's described as being gained and perpetuated on through off-spring in the garden of Eden story. And it spread from southern Mesopotamia out much like what's described in the Babel story.


anonymous 3 years ago

The belief that God cursed and punished the entire creation for Adam and Eves sin is cruel unjust irrational insane and stupid. Its supposed to absolve God for the problem of evil and suffering in the world. It doesn't. Not in my book. And having Adam and Eves sin transmitted to all future unborn humans is unfair and unjust. The world was set up to be screwed by this experiment with free will and Adam and Eve. Ive got news for creationists and Fundamentalists. Suffering death and extinctions is older than Adam and Eves sin or older than humanity. Predation violence killing and death has existed for hundreds of millions of years and diseases have existed for tens of millions of years. Adam and Eve if they existed are dated from 6000 years to 32 years ago. Dinosaurs from the Cretaceous period 70 million years to 100 million years ago were afflicted with cancer tooth decay and broken bones and Dinosaurs were pestered by ticks mosquitoes flies and worms and many Dinosaurs killed and ate each other. Explain this to me Fundamentalists? The world never was a paradise and never was a peaceable kingdom. What about the suffering death and extinctions before there was a man to sin? How do you explain that preacher? And what was the world like before there was any violence killing and death? The world was then a suffocating unbreathable anaeorobic toxic inferno with boiling mud pools active volcanoes with temperatures thousands of degrees hot. This period of earth is called the Precambrian era when jellyfish anemones coral algae and anaerobic microbes were the dominant life forms 545 million years to 4.6 billion years ago. Is this intelligent benevolent design? I say its not. Would a benevolent creator make something like the Stonefish or the Centipede whose venoms cause unimaginable pain? Would an intelligent benevolent loving merciful morally perfect being make tooth decay cancer malaria strep throat ebola? Drought here's and floods there and intense cold here and intense heat there and physical ugliness deformities birth defects in humans to add and increase suffering? Adam and Eves sin cannot explain all instances of evil and suffering. This problem is vastly older more complex and more deep than two ignorant humans eating a forbidden fruit. Why does God keep silent and secret about it? Is He embarrassed to admit He is deficient in some manner? Or maybe He feels He doesn't owe us any explanations and expects blind faith and blind trust. Im a little too smart for that. Blind faith and blind trust is possible for ignorant people and religious fanatics. Its not possible for a thinking rational sane person. Evil and suffering does not disprove God's existence. A God of some kind exists but its a DEFICIENT God. Not so good not so moral not so loving not so merciful not so mighty not so wise not so intelligent. Perhaps this God is insane. Perhaps He is mentally blind or morally blind and cannot see the cruelty and wrong of what He is allowing. Im not a proponent of theodicy which is making arguments and execuses to get God off the hook for having such a screwed up world. Peter Kreeft and James Dobson are just two Christians who make contorted convoluted arguments to absolve God for allowing evil and suffering. Their arguments are mental gymnastics and mental olympics. They are defending an insane criminal lunatic. God's ways are unknowable and mysterious to us humans they say. Is that a justifiable execuse to turn the world into a horror movie? Does that justify allowing eons of evils suffering death and extinctions? God has to prove that He has a justifiable reason. No human can prove that. Unfortunately this God has chosen to keep silent and secret about it and allows to endlessly speculate and agonize about it. This God has chosen to leave us in endless suspense and ignorance. Why wont this God communicate with us and tell us what the Bible means? Clear up the confusion and set the record straight so we know what to believe and how to live. Explain to us the origin of the world and the origin of humans so creationists and evolutionists would stop fighting each other. No this God chooses to allow ignorance division fighting confusion and aggravation which is more cruelty on His part. And if the greater number of people are destined for hell in the next life with fire worms suffocation demons and Satan then that makes this experiment with free will and Adam and Eve even more wrong to conduct. It makes God's unknowable reasons even more disturbing and it makes His unknowable divine plan even more monstrous and even more horrific and even more screwed up. An eternal torture chamber where billions of people are going to end up including many Christians if the Fundamentalists are right. It seems this God created us to torture us. As if the suffering in this earthly life isn't horrible enough this God is going to torture people vastly worse in the next life FOREVER. This is monstrous inhuman sadistic fiendish malevolent cruelty BEYOND IMAGINING. This God has a cruel side like the Devil who is supposed to be His enemy. Im probably going to end up in hell. I have nightmares. I have no girlfriend and Im always lonely. The God of the Bible is cruel to the umpteenth degree. Hes partly evil and Hes also insane and stupid. I have more fear than love for such a God. This God has abdicated the world to the Devil and allows the Devil and demons to screw and ruin His creation. Going by the Bible both God and Satan screwed and ruined the creation and they both neglect it. Eldritch Abomination describes these two. A God who allows eons of evils suffering death and extinctions is mentally and morally different from any sane rational morally decent human being. Its a MORAL MONSTROSITY forca God. The world is a hellhole and a horror movie. I live in fear.


anonymous 3 years ago

I would like to correct a typing error from the above comment. Its not 32 years ago but 32000 years ago. Adam and Eve if they existed are dated from 6000 years to 32000 years ago.


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Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

"ANY BOOK has two audiences: the one right then and those who read it later. If we (Christian and non-Christian) in the "later" group understood the meaning to the original audience, we would appear less foolish."

That's a good point Gjean. In some sense I have two views of religion, one is viewing religion from a purely mythological perspective, where I can appreciate it as, essentially, sci-fi fantasy. The other is viewing it from the perspective of "adults actually believe this stuff and teach it to their kids" and attempting to deconstruct it logically and morally.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Anonymous,

As far as pre-Adam, I don't know what to tell you other than the world is a harsh place. Life feeds on life. Animals killing and eating other animals, disease, and even tooth decay is life feeding on life. This is a finite world and death is a vital part of the process. Every living organism struggles to survive this environment and its that struggle for survival that forges life and makes it what it is. Our physical form was forged through the struggle of surviving in this environment.

Without the death and disease and mass extinctions we wouldn't be here as we are today. So is that really evil? What are we without struggle? Have you ever seen a tree grow where there is no wind? They just grow straight and weak because it's the wind and the elements that continually break the tree and give it strength, character, and beauty. So what would we be today without all the adverse conditions that forged and strengthened our ancestors? The whole reason we can walk and balance and run and climb and think is because of it. It's what made us who we are.

As for Adam and Eve, yes, God gave them the capability to sin by giving them free will, but its that same gift that also allows for art and music and literature and cities and manned missions to space and computers. Prior to that humans existed in much the same way all throughout the world for many thousands of generations. There was no killing other than hunting, little to no human on human violence at all, and nobody was treated any better or worse than anyone else. Throughout the hunter-gatherer stage, and even long after the discovery of farming and the establishment of highly populated communities, there was peace. But there was also no change and very little innovation that didn't directly relate to survival. If not for the creation of Adam and Eve and the capabilities they were given, the very same ones that allow for evil, then we wouldn't exist as we do today. We'd still live much live the Aboriginal tribes of Australia, which is still very much like homo sapiens lived across the board all around the world for tens of thousands of years.

Most of the atrocities of this world are created by humans by their own choice. This is what we've done with this gift. This free will we've been given makes us both creative and destructive. Sure, there is still death and disease and broken bones and decaying teeth in the natural world. That's just life. But the things that constitute as real evil is man-made. This environment is the perfect environment to harvest this kind of capability. It pushes us to our limits, tests us, challenges us. Much like our physical form was forged by struggle and adaptation, so too is our free-willed selves. That's what makes us who we are. And yes, it's scary. Yes, some people will be alone, some people will die horrible deaths. It's those things that give life, and the relationships we have during this life, meaning. Because its not easy. Because it is dangerous and scary. It's also quite beautiful, and the only reason we can acknowledge and appreciate that beauty is because we also know harsh and ugly.


anonymous 3 years ago

According to author William Dembski God retroactively cursed and punished the entire creation long before Adam and Eve sinned. According to this theory God knows everything beforehand from the past present and future and God does not have to act within chronological time. Since God knew Adam and Eve would sin He decided to curse and punish the entire creation long before the sin. This is to reconcile Genesis with an old creation and its to acknowledge that Natural Evils and animal suffering death and extinctions is older than Adam and Eve and older than humanity. While this theory conforms with science and evolution it still fails as a theodicy and it still fails to absolve God for having a screwed up shithole world. In fact it makes God's behaviour even more irrational and even more stupid. This God is still a monster. Retroactive punishment for Adam and Eve's sin? Its retroactive stupidity retroactive insanity retroactive cruelty. It makes God an even bigger dunce. This God just folds His hands and allows evil suffering sin and death ad nauseaum ad infinitum. Nature's screwuos defects and cruelties isn't going to heal by itself and human nature isn't going to heal by itself. God has to heal this cursed broken trashed creation. He has failed to heal it (and continues to fail.) Its a deadbeat and an absentee landlord for a God. He has no intelligent constructive solution to offer us and He has no merciful humane solution to offer us. Nature is ruined and human nature is ruined. And if that's not bad enough theres sn eternal torture chamber called hell with fire worms shit suffocation demons and Satan where the majority of humans are going to end up to be roasted like charcoals with Satan. Its sick. Its fucking sick. And all this because two ignorant humans ate a forbidden apple eons ago and because a certain angel was created who turned bad and became Satan. This irresponsible negligent incompetent insane stupid God has trashed His creation and has abdicated the world ro the Devil. This God is a bigger dunce than the 3 Stooges. Im embarrassed and ashamed to call myself a Bible believing Christian. For shame for shame.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

Well, consider the entirety of the context of what's being described, then tell me if God still seems cruel to you. Through science we have learned that all matter and energy in this universe behaves in consistent/predictable ways. So much so that we're able to reconstruct the way it all formed spanning back billions of years. Even though we ourselves are natural products of this natural universe, made of the same matter that everything else is, according to what the bible is describing, the whole theme of the whole thing has to do with our ability to behave outside of our own volition.

Without a non-physical/spiritual component of the 'self', without a soul, if we are nothing more than the matter we are made up of, then we cannot actually have free will. Though the way our mind works makes it seem as though we have choices, if we are truly nothing more than physical matter then the choice we make in each given situation is the only choice possible because matter only behaves the way it behaves. There's no conscious decision being made whether or not to adhere to the natural laws. Matter can only behave the way it behaves.

Free will means we are in fact creators ourselves. We are able to create actions and decisions that add to and take away from this universe. Yet we do so without the perspective and without insight of how the universe works or just how far reaching the impact of our choices and actions can reach. This would be the equivalent of you having cells in your body that adhere to a DNA code other than the DNA code of your body. This is a volatile thing. Imagine if each particle of matter could decide on its own accord whether or not to adhere to gravity. Existence would simply unravel. Existence works because everything in it adheres to one, single, solitary, consistent, will (or natural laws).

A finite world where everything has a beginning and an end is the perfect environment to nurture and bring to fruition something as volatile and dangerous as free will. Free will is worth having. To actually make it possible that we not only exist, but that we exist with our own minds and able to make our own choices and choose our own paths, is monumental. Sure, existence could be the picture of perfection that you envision as being how it 'ought to be', but that would only be possible if we didn't each have a will of our own. If we were all basically drones just going through the motions with no real choice in what we do.

Free will means we are able to create things that are not 'of God', but are 'of us'. But it requires wisdom and understanding to wield responsibly. And wisdom is not something that can simply be given. Much like life, though you can prepare someone in every way you know how to navigate life, the only real way they will ever learn is by doing. That's what the whole bible is about. Our behavior and the impact our behavior can have on everyone around us. This is even more significant now in this modern age of understanding than it ever has been. Everything you find harsh or unforgivable or 'dumb' is simply necessary for free will to exist.


anonymous 3 years ago

No one has total free will. Nature nurture genes brain chemistry and societal upbringing and environmental conditions also dictates and determines our behavior bad or good. Its unjust to have or to allow Adam and Eve's sin passed on to ALL future unborn humans thus corrupting and ruining human nature. How can we have total free will if Adam and Eve corrupted human nature? If one adds Satan and demons as corrupting and influencinv human behavior then that leaves less room for free will. We don't have total free will. We have partial free will. Even if we had total free will that still does not justify havinv or allowing eons of evil sin suffering and death. Free will does not justify turning the world into a horror movie. How much free will does cancer have? How much free will does the ebola virus have? How much free will do Centipedes and mosquitoes have? How much free will is there in birth defects and monstrous deformities where the person's face and body looks like a Halloween mask or looks like something out of a horror movie? Its bad enough human nature is full of evil sin and cruelty and its bad enough that Nature has a cruel violent dangerous side and its bad enough that Satan and demons or evil spirits exist. On top of all this evil cruelty and horror is the belief in hell as the price of free will. The majority of humans are ending up in hell according to the Bible to be roasted like charcoals with Satan forever and its all the price to pay for having free will. This earthly life is a hell for millions of people and the afterlife is going to be a vastly worse hell lasting forever because of free will.This experiment with free will Satan and Adam and Eve was and is a colossal disaster tragedy and screwup. Its a ticking time bomb and a powderkeg to a dynamite. Its a grievous error. This earthly life is a hell because of it and the afterlife is going to be an infinitely worse hell lasting forever for 90 percent or more of the human population. This is immoral and insane. The Biblical God is a cruel monster no matter how I look at it. I live in fear.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

So, in other words, everyone should be happy, healthy, beautiful, and live care-free, painless lives? And you want to continue to have your own mind and your own will? The world is a harsh place. But even if it wasn't, even if we lived in a universe where the worst thing you ever heard of was that one guy that one time back in '02 who took an extra helping of mashed potatoes knowing full well others had not yet had a chance to eat. That would still seem like an atrocity to you because that would be worse than anything else you had ever heard.And you, in that nerfed universe where nothing really bad ever happens would still be shaking your fist at the air saying how dare God allow things to be so bad that that guy could take more potatoes than he deserved. It's all relative.

Would we even know what pain and suffering is if we never experienced it? Would we even know when we have it good, when to cherish a particular moment with the one you love or good friends if there was no hardship to compare it to? If good days were the norm, and you never experienced anything else, then you wouldn't even realize you have it good. Things we would find mildly negative would seem cataclysmic.

Death is good. Death gives life urgency. Makes it mean something. Makes moments precious.

Do you consider parents who conceive children monsters? Because each couple who knowingly bring a life into this world are guaranteeing that child will know pain, suffering, heart-ache, and eventually they will experience death. And the parents know all of this going in. Are they monsters for conceiving that child? Is life not still worth living? Is it not still worth it to bring children into this world, even as harsh as it is, knowing full well that pain and death are inevitable?

As for hell and eternal damnation, not that I'm any kind of expert or anything, but when I read that I read it to mean the fire is eternal, not the punishment. Just as it says in that well-known verse, "... whosoever believeth in him SHALL NOT PERISH..". If you're burning for all eternity, you're not perishing. Personally, I think the whole eternal damnation thing is a concept created by religious institutions to control the masses through fear.

The way I read it, because we have free will, we must willingly acknowledge God as the authority. That's it. If you don't then He's not going to let you into His house. Would you let someone stay in your house if they refused to respect you, your house and your rules? Doesn't seem cruel to me. He gave us life, gave us our own wills and our own minds, and gave us the capability to enjoy it for all eternity as long as we follow the rules. And because we each have our own minds and our own wills rules are necessary.


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The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

Titen-Sxull,

Is it possible to give a valid description of a man's body without using everything in it?

I say no.

Is it possible to give a valid description of existence without using everything herein, including theories?

Again, I say no.

So why are man attempting to explain existence using only the evolution theory, only physical science, only math or only religion? Why are man calling half of existence [b]good and evil[/b] which disallow the use of [b]evil[/b] to describe existence? Why not integrate every concept known to man to explain existence rather than choosing your or someone else's preferences that you accept as your own for determining how to explain existence?

http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/vision.htm is how I have integrated some portion of many sources of knowledge to explain existence, what do you think about that integrating of sources?


anonymous 3 years ago

The problem is not just having evil and suffering in the world. The problem is the sheer quantities of evil and suffering. I would not be outraged if the worst thing that could ever happen is if a person helped himself to an extra serving of mashed potatoes. But the world as we know it is full of monstrous horrific evils resembling a horror movie. Mass starvation cancer staph infections deformities blindness tooth decay loneliness the pollution of the air water and food and grievous crimes and grievous accidents and injuries is unacceptable inexecusable and indefensible for a God to allow. A supposedly all good all mighty all wise loving merciful God has to allow diseases mass starvation birth defects and all manner of human cruelty and malevolence? Something is not right with this picture. I don't need cancer to appreciate good health and I don't need to experience starvation to appreciate food. You say evil and suffering is needed to provide contrast and growth and to be able to appreciate goodness happiness and well being. Theres more evil and suffering in the world than is required to provide this contrast. Furthermore many victims of evil and suffering are killed in a short amount of time and there is no chance for them to grow and no chance for them to be able to appreciate contrasts. How pray tell can something as horrific as premature burial be justified? How can the horror of being buried alive be a way of providing growth? An unknown number of people and animals have been buried alive either accidentally or intentionally. Coffins crypts vaults small cellars small attics refrigerators bomb shelthers crawlspaces chimneys tunnels closets and holes in the ground can be torture chambers and death traps. Suffocation and claustrophobia. Unimaginable horror. The intense horrific pain from diseases such as cancer heart attacks aneurysm dengue fever etc and from venomous pests such as centipedes jellyfish bullet ants black widow spiders stonefish is hellish. The capacity for the human body and the human mind to suffer is very great. It seems as if the creator has worked overtime to make the world a cruel dangerous hostile place to torture His creatures. As for hell and eternal punishment the Bible is contradictory on this. In some passages its saying that unsaved people will perish or cease to exist after death. In other passages we read that theres an everlasting fire where people will be tormented day and night forever and ever with Satan the beast and the false prophet. Christ spoke of hell. We're not going to get any clear straight answers from the Bible. The Bible is vague ambiguous unclear and full of contradictions from Genesis to Revelation. Look at all the numerous churches denominations and sects with each one yelling something different and with each one claiming that only they are right and everyone else is wrong. The Bible has caused more disagreement division and confusion than any other book. Read Titen-sxull's other hubsites Yahweh is Evil and God versus Satan and Monotheism and the problem of suffering where I talk about God and religion. Theres more evil in this world than our minds can cope with. Theres more evil and suffering than is required to provide contrast and in so many cases evil and suffering is BREAKING character instead of building character. Hatred sociopathy alienation crimes genocides and suicides all attest this tragic fact. The New Orleans hurricane is known to have caused at least 3 people to commit suicide. Watch the damage as people have lost their homes properties livelihoods loved ones and are stuck in a river of filthy water and a mountain of debris and trash. This storm didn't just break a few windows. It temporarily pulverized New Olreans right off the map. The Indonesian tsunami which killed some 230000 people caused anger at God for allowing such a massive tragedy. Keep in mind that innocent animals were also victims in these disasters as well as sinful humans. Nature is blind cruel indiscriminate amoral nonmoral. The world is a hellhole and a horror movie with excessive superfluous horrific evils. Allowing thousands to millions of years of evil sin suffering death and extinctions is a disgrace. Its criminal cruelty criminal negligence criminal insanity criminal incompetence criminal stupidity. Its IMMORAL. The Devil rules this hellhole world and not a loving wise God. I personally believe theres some kind of insanity within God which may explain why He continues to allow evil and suffering ad nauseaum ad infinitum. He playing a cruel immoral game or He is conducting a cruel immoral experiment. Maybe God is blind. Not visually blind but He is mentally blind and He is morally blind. It just doesn't seem to occur to this God that allowing eons of evil sin suffering and death is cruel immoral and insane. He is just not right in the head. I complain and others have complained to Him but the message is just not getting through. Its just not registering. If this God doesn't learn how to be responsible and merciful and humane then what hope is there? This screwed up world isn't going to heal by itself. God has to heal it or there is no hope. What mental handicap afficts this God that He cannot see the wrong the cruelty and the insanity of allowing diseases mass starvation pollution and all manner of human cruelty and stupidity? Yahweh is evil and Yahweh is also insane. Or He is irrational unreasoning mentally blind and morally blind. This God has no common sense and has no reasoning. The outlook for the future is extremely bleak. This God has abdicated the world to the Devil.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

You're a glass half empty kind of guy, huh? What about the good things in life? What about the appreciation of beauty, music, art? What about a sense of humor and finding something funny and laughing? What about sex? Good food? Sunsets? The songs of birds and the chirp of crickets?

You can choose to focus on only the negative. You can choose to live in fear of all the dangers of the world if you like. Personally, I find the risk thrilling. I find the dangers are what make things worth doing. No, it's not going to be easy. You can either cower in a corner scared of everything or you can rise up in the face of all the horrible things that can and have happened and live in spite of it. There's no reward and no feeling of gratification if there were no risk involved.

Just try thinking of the alternative. Think of the existence that you feel should be. Is it even feasible? Think about the cells in your body. Your body functions because all the trillions of cells that make up your body work as a collective according to one unified code. Your DNA. We could be those cells. We could just be born, perform a function, reproduce, and die, with no real choice in the matter. And all would be peaceful. There'd be no pain because everyone and everything would adhere to the one will of the creator. But what kind of life would that be if we were all just drones incapable of doing things of our own volition? This world is the equivalent of a body made up of cells who each have their own DNA code. Things are going to get hairy, but at least you and I and everyone else got to do it our way. By our choice.

Most of the horrors and atrocities of this world are man-made. Man does much worse than nature. Nature is simply survival. The whole reason our bodies function as they do, fights disease and heals wounds as it does, is because of that struggle of nature. We were shaped and molded by it. It made us tough. Resilient. Millions of years of struggle and adaptation made it possible for each of us to experience life for a short time. Yes, we will experience pain and suffering, but we'll also experience happiness and joy. Life is both good times and bad. You will live and you will die. Death will find us all. It could be this very night or it could be decades from now. So take advantage of the opportunity, appreciate the millions and millions of years of surviving and adapting that made it possible for you to be here for this brief time, and live until you die.

Death makes room for more life. Without death we'd be overrun with all the creatures who came before. And death also means all the scary things can only be so bad. Because it will end. The suffering will end. The evil people of the world have an expiration date, same as you and I. Just as it's often said, it rains on the evil and the just. Death clears out the old and makes room for the new. Without death we wouldn't have babies and puppies. New life. New starts. New chances.

Would you rather God not create existence at all? Or create existence where you have no mind or will of your own? Think about this, why would God bother to make all of this and give us this chance to experience all that life is if He didn't love us? Why have good at all if He's as you say? Why have love and laughter and all the things that enrich our lives if He's the sadistic creator you make Him out to be? Why not go all the way with it? If life were as horrible as you make it out to be then couples wouldn't procreate. Who would want to bring new life into that? But they do anyway. Why? Because life is worth it. I've suffered broken bones, the embarrassment of wetting the bed well into my teens, the heart-break of the girl I liked marrying my best friend, half my face was paralyzed for roughly a month, only for the other side to do the same just as the first side finally came back. I've been beaten, jumped by a gang, my wife's ovary formed an 8+ pound tumor and she had a blood clot in her leg that almost killed her. And if given the chance, I'd do it all over again.

Don't just focus on the scary stuff. Really think about why a God capable of creating this breath-taking universe and all the wondrous creatures that inhabit this beautiful planet would bother to create us and give us our own minds. As we now know better than ever, it took a lot for us to be here. He did all of that and gave us our own free will with just a handful of rules that we're capable of disobeying and that we break all the time. And all He asks of us is that we acknowledge Him as the creator and the authority. Not too much to ask if you ask me.


anonymous 3 years ago

How does one explain all the good things in the world if God or the creator is evil? Actually that can be answered. God is neither totally evil nor totally good but is a mix of good and evil. He has a split personality which can be seen in His behavior in the Bible and in the Nature He created. The Bible says "I form light and darkness I make peace and create evil." (King James Bible). God hurts and heals and He kills and makes alive according to the Bible. He has a Jekyll and Hyde personality. There is a dual nature within Yahweh. Morally ambivalent. Yahweh is like a pet cat who is friendly and lovable on one hand while on the other hand it will bite and scratch its owners and go out and kill and mutilate birds and animals. Yahweh is like a Hippo who peacefully wades in the water on one hand and who fights and kills any other animal or human entering its territory. Both good and evil qualities exist in the same thing. Both good and evil impulses are within Yahweh the God of the Bible. Some things He created have no good in them at all but are purely evil such as cancer malaria anthrax ebola. If God is not evil or not to blame for evil and suffering then who is? Satan and demons? If Satan and demons are to blame then why does God allow it? There are good things in the world and there are a few good people in the world. I like to eat and drink fruit juices and smoothies. I love dogs cats songbirds parakeets parrots pigeons finches and goats antelopes ponies horses and anoles chameleons geckos and agamas. I love the Hawaiian islands and the Marquesas islands. Sightseeing hiking and picnics are wonderful and Im thankful I have TV ad the Internet. I don't have a girlfriend due to physical ugliness and mental illness so Im always lonely. I also find most women are unfriendly. The world isn't all bad but its also far from being all good. A lot has to do with genes and luck. In my case I have lousy genes and lousy luck. I suffer from nightmares. Some of these have been demonic or Satanic in nature. I personally believe that God maybe insane or irrational for allowing evil and suffering or He is mentally blind or morally blind and is unable to see the cruelty and the wrong of what He is allowing. Theres some kind of deficiency within God and He has chosen to keep silent and secret about it. Maybe theres a total Dualism within creation as the Gnostics believe and maybe God is not powerful enough to prevent evil and suffering. Maybe Satan and demons are stronger and smarter than given credit for and its Satan who is winning this war. Or maybe there is no winner in this war. The world is fillled with ambiguity contrasts and contradictions whether its Nature or human beings.


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HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

You're right. God created everything and evil exists. But evil is only possible through free will. Free will is a gift. It's the knowledge of good and evil. It's the capability to behave independent of, and even contrary to, the one, singular, unchanging will of God/natural law. It's the ability to behave in a way that is contrary to "natural".

Think about how it began. Creation illustrates an entire existence that conforms exactly to the will of the one creator God. He wills it and it becomes. And at the end God deemed all He created 'good', including the humans. Now I know most assume the humans at the end are Adam/Eve, but that is not the case. These humans were told to populate the earth and establish dominance in the animal kingdom. Tasks that would take numerous generations to accomplish. Adam/Eve, before even having their first child, disobeyed. They didn't follow even that one simple command. They were cursed and banished by God. If Adam/Eve were one and the same as the Gen1 humans, would God have deemed them 'good'? How would they then be expected to follow His commands so completely over the course of numerous generations if they broke the one rule they were given immediately?

Initially Adam and Eve were to live forever and be provided for. Free of pain and suffering and death. But God imbued them with a volatile capability; free will. Notice the first thing God did once they broke their one rule, He cut them off from the tree of life. He gave their life an expiration date. Life as you feel it should be was the life they were to live. It's only after disobeying that Eve would then have to bare children. Because of death, life must perpetuate through procreation. This finite existence, complete with death and disease and decay, is a necessary environment for something as volatile as free will. Much like cancer cells. The two primary things that make cancer so dangerous is A) these cells don't adhere to the DNA and function as they're meant to, and B) they don't die like normal cells do. Free will combined with infinite/eternal life endangers everything.

If we are to learn to wield this powerful capability, then we have to do so in an environment where everything is temporary/finite. Where the power we have to create/destroy has the limitation of being finite. It's preparation for the infinite. It's the finite that you find so troubling about the natural world. The death and decay will not be a part of the eternal life we are promised. These are conditions of the environment God created so that free will could exist. This place exists so that we can live with our own wills and gain the wisdom necessary to wield it in that life. It's like a governor on a car that limits the capability of a much more powerful engine.

As for Satan, I think the whole 'fallen' aspect of that is a misunderstanding. In the OT Satan is performing a very specific function. Much like he does in Job only after being given permission by God, then again with Jesus in the wilderness. The OT describes him as a kind of prosecutor. One who tempts and tests. Like in the garden. He serves a purpose and is not beyond the control of God nor do I think he's a creation of God that then went haywire.

As for women, don't count them out or dismiss them entirely. I more resemble a troll than a human, in my own opinion, and was even worse when I was young, yet I found a woman who loves me. For a long time I thought much like you do now, that no woman would want me. Yet, this woman does. She may be the only one, but she does. There are all manner of women out there, and I can't imagine someone as articulate and capable of conveying their emotions as you never finding love. Life is long and ever-changing and many things that you are convinced one day is inevitable or impossible, the next day can happen. It happened to me. I've never seen you, but I think you're beautiful. Not just anyone can put together a bunch of words in such a way that those words can take on a life of their own, reach across many miles, and punch someone else in the chest. And that's what your words do. Don't count yourself out or think your life will always be as it is. Keep reaching out, keep sharing, keep talking. The world is a vast place and there's every conceivable kind of fish in this sea.


anonymous 3 years ago

Dear HeadlyvonNoggin I thank you for your kind words. I admire your ability to have strong faith despite suffering. Obviously not everyone can cling to their religious faith when confronted by suffering and evil. One has to be very strong and tough in body mind and spirit to keep their religious faith strong. My Christian faith is weakened. Its not dead it just weakened. We may not agree on all points but you have good arguments. Maybe this earthly life is just a train ride and we haven't arrived yet to our eternal destination. Maybe the real life and the real fun begins in the next life. Perhaps the horribleness of this earthly life with diseases loneliness starvation crimes disasters accidents pollution etc are meant to show us to look up to heaven or look up to the next life. C.S. Lewis wrote that us Christians live in the Shadowlands. I think he's saying that this world is just a temporary stop or a pilgrimage to a better place. I find it unfair that God would punish the entire world for Adam and Eve's sin. I do believe that other primitive humans or hominids may have existed before Adam and Eve. Some believe that Satan and demons ruined the creation and are the real causes for diseases parasites hurricanes tsunamis birth defects centipedes jellyfish predation violence death entropy and all manner of human sin and cruelty. We need an evil Satan and evil demons to get God off the hook for a screwed up world. This hubsite by Titen-sxull is a good one. These hubsites have all kinds of topics. Im interested in religion unexpalined phenomena such as teleportation ESP out of body experiences poltergeists fairies anomalous cloud formations ghosts and hauntings.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 3 years ago from back in the lab again Author

I think that we can only integrate something into our understanding of reality if it's actually real and since religious and supernatural claims have yet to produce any substantial evidence of any kind that we must exclude the supernatural until such evidence is presented. Science is only naturalistic because nothing beyond the natural has ever been demonstrated to exist. We can't include all the things that haven't been proven to exist in our understanding of existence without becoming very confused and self-contradicted.


HeadlyvonNoggin profile image

HeadlyvonNoggin 3 years ago from Texas

The problem with that is that you're requiring 'natural' evidence of the 'super-natural'. The physical sciences can only measure/detect/observe physical matter and energy. It's simply the wrong tool for verifying these claims. It's not that they can't be. It's just that we have to be a little more imaginative in how we go about it. My approach is to first prove the bible, specifically Genesis, as a legitimate source of information that's much more on point historically than most give it credit for, and showing that it correctly details things no human could have possibly known before this age.

I have a series of hubs under the header 'God created evolution' that attempts to do just that. Using science to establish proper context behind the first 11 chapters (creation through Babel story), I attempt to show how doing so illustrates some glaring errors in how these texts are traditionally interpreted, and then go on to show how grounding these stories in the proper context of real history goes a long way towards not just correcting one particular misinterpretation, but also how that one adjustment clarifies the rest of the bible, grounds these stories in real history, and even offers explanations to some of the lingering questions about major developments in human history, like the dawn of multiple independent civilizations, with multiple unique languages including a writing system, major changes in human behavior, major advances in craftsmanship/technology/inventions, as well as the emergence of the modern human mind/ego.


anonymous 3 years ago

While I continue to be a Cbristian and continue to believe in the supernatural the questions and fears continue in my mind. The fear that this God I worship is an evil cruel insane monster will continue to exist. Theres some kind of evil or insanity or some other deficiency within God. The Biblical God is part loving father and part cruel malevolent monster. The original Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. God caused the suffering and death of millions of people in the Bible and of countless animals in the Bible and He allows suffering death and evil to continue with no end in sight. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. Is God confused about how to handle Satan and demons? It seems like God doesn't know or is powerless to stop these evil entities from corrupting and ruining His creation. Something is amiss here. My mind cannot be at ease with a world as deeply steeped and mired in evil as this world is that we live in. Theres a nightmarish aspect to the world and to history. Theres an aspect to the world that resembles a horror movie or horror novel. This world is as horrific as anything that Stephen King Dean Koontz Tobe Hooper or John Carpenter have produced. The teaching of hell or eternal punishment is the most horrific of all. The ultimate in horror. Fire worms excrement suffocation demons and Satan where human victims will be burning like charcoals forever. Millions billions trillions and zillions of years of torture. Im literally having nightmares about this. The teaching of hell and the fear of hell has contributed to causing a hell on earth. As a young man in 1923 C.S. Lewis witnessed a friend nicknamed "Doc" who suffered from raving fits as he was convinced he committed an unpardonable sin and was on his way to hell. If I remember correctly this man's fear of hell sent him to a mental hospital. He was paralyzed with fear. I think religion has caused as much misery as it has given happiness. The belief in hell and the fear of it makes death a lot more scary. According to Fundamentalists even many Christians are going to hell for either not belonging to the "true" church(if there is such a thing) or for not believing the entire Bible word for word or for failing to correctly interpret the Bible or for certain sins such as being gay and adultery and for not putting God first in their life. Of couurse all atheists agnostics heretics apostates and those belonging to other religions and those belonging to pagan religions are unsaved according to Fundamentalists and according to the Bible. If even some Christians are unsaved or are in danger of being damned then theres a lot to fear and a lot to worry about.


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 3 years ago from Washington DC

Titen-Sxull,

Religion has revealed to me how civilization operates, in cycles (Ecc. 1:9) like seasons, days and years (Gen. 1:14-b). A day has 2 grand times, this 84,000 {based on certain symbols, 1 being the 42 generations from Abraham to christ} year material civilization and another 84,000 year spiritual one, with two 7000 year short transition periods, first light to sunrise and sunset to dark like the 6 days of creation and 1 of rest in Genesis and the millennium reign and 6000 more years until the next civilization in Revelation 20:4-5 & chapter 21.

A year has 4 seasons which corresponds with the 4 primary ethics of man, yellow budding of plants in spring begins the year representing Asians, the red ripe fruit of summer represents Natives of the Americas, the darkening of leaves and fruit are Africans and the white snow of winter which kills everything except evergreen plants, that represents everlasting life, are Europeans.

In that light, what religions present is determined by if people believe the events of their texts literally or metaphorically. My study of them as metaphors has shown me most of what man are doing in these days, including rediscovering of the Americas which was almost like Eden's garden and how it will be destroyed (Ezek. 28:12-19) by her nuclear weapons on ICBMs (Zech. 5;1-4). It revealed how the Americas {rediscovered and forgotten many times land of Nod (Gen. 4:16)} would be almost ethnically cleansed upon discovery (Gen. 4:14 & 24). It reveals how Africans would be brought someplace in chains and belong to those who received them (Isa. 45:14) and so much more.

Therefore, what one see scripture saying depends on what they relate what'd written to.


Joseph O Polanco profile image

Joseph O Polanco 19 months ago

"God punishes his entire creation, the entire planet Earth"

You're being reductive. First of all God only punished Adam and Eve for their sin; these lost the privilege of living eternally and subsequently died as a result. The problem you're overlooking is that Adam and Eve had children AFTER they sinned. Had they had children BEFORE they sinned these would have been perfect and sinless. However, since they had their children after they sinned they could no longer engender perfect, sinless, children.

As Romans 5:12 explicates, "Through one man SIN entered into the world and death through SIN, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

Now, God did not abandon his creation but, instead, immediately put into motion a permanent solution for all those who sought it. In this essay here, http://bit.ly/19lpefW, you'll learn what this solution was and how many millions the world over have taken advantage of it.


Titen-Sxull profile image

Titen-Sxull 19 months ago from back in the lab again Author

"First of all God only punished Adam and Eve for their sin"

Than why is there cancer? God curses all of creation and all of creation becomes fallen and corrupt. Unless you are going to tell me that things like cancer, parasites, malaria and all diseases in general, natural disasters, etc were all built into creation by God BEFORE the Fall which actually makes things worse for God.

"The problem you're overlooking is that Adam and Eve had children AFTER they sinned."

God didn't foresee this and attempt to stop their sin from being passed on? God designed sin in such a way that it passes on from parents to child? God allowed sin to corrupt his once perfect creation because two people, one who was magically made from a rib, decided to eat a piece of fruit... this makes sense to you?


The0NatureBoy profile image

The0NatureBoy 18 months ago from Washington DC

בהתחלה translates into "in the beginning" suggesting "prior to the statement that followed it there was nothing."

בתחילת translates into "in beginning" which suggests "a cycle is being discussed and we are using this as a place to begin our dialog."

Gen 1:14 and Ecc 1:9 are two clear places suggesting בתחילת [in beginning] is what was translated into "in the beginning" should have been. Hebrew speaking people also suggest that is the original word, suggesting there never a creation but the cycle I suggested three posts earlier. I will interpret creation here and hopefully show the error of your analysis.

Earth is a conglomeration of life-types consuming other life-types for maiming their own existence. Using "reaping and sowing" or law of "karma" as a bases, all life-forces comes out of a state of absolute ignorance – except for incarnating – to "evolve" through every potential form and action of every life-type from the first – I know it not what – through all behaviors man demonstrates before evolving to other planes until all comprehensible knowledge and understanding of existence is obtained before returning to ignorance again.

When life-forces enters earth its manifestation has to eat and is eaten, creating karma, and every inter act with its own and others species does also. Once every interaction with its own specie is completed its life-force will evolve the next specie paying off old and establishing new karma through every specie including man. From man the life-force becomes a spiritual being called angel who are responsible for ensuring every life-force follows a certain sequence of incarnations so as to end all earthen karma prior to becoming the angel.

In Rev (20:5) we find "the first resurrection" suggesting 700 million ignorant life-forces evolves into earth and equally from every life-type into another to man. Also, everyone who did not survive the termination of this material world will reincarnate replenishing the earth for the spiritual world (Rev. 21) without seas (v. 1), man recognizing their bodies like we do not recognize our life-forces today (v. 4) and no sun (v. 23). 700 million man will become angels and the same number of angels evolves to other planes until they reach the skin of the onion to revert back into ignorance again.

In Rev. 17:15 we find "The waters which thou saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" which makes the "waters" the spirit of god moved upon "the face" of (Gen 1:2) to represents people. The "light," without a source of light, or darkness represents the 700 million who will leave earth for the next plane and be replaced during the 6th and 7th day. The firmament above the earth is the next plane and the waters above it was the all at once rapture of the righteous.

The waters where the land appeared and plants grew represent the earth when whatever prevented man from seeing it disappeared allowing it to become visual. The sequence of plants, birds, fish and animals before man suggests the evolution of life-forces. There was there no death or birth of man prior to the sixth day when man began to reproduce, thus, the 7 days represent something like the transition from dark world to this sun filled world with Gen 2:4 is the beginning of its rising.

Adam is the child of the Alpha & Omega from the dark world, she gives birth to it in a desert like area and later, about the time of crawling, took it to an area with berry and fruit trees where she built it an earthen nest. She disappeared from it but spoke to it verbally – but kept a telepathic link with him -- instructing it to eat from the fruit and berries falling to the earth and to drink water from any available sources, also teaching him to return to his nest for sleeping. That caused him to become territorial.

About the age of puberty his invisible mother encouraged him to name the birds and animals, causing him to recognize some lived in groups, their mating and reproducing which caused him to desire the same. That is why his mother said he should not be alone and caused a deep sleep to come over him to plant a dream of his rib being formed into a girl. When he awoke there she was causing him to name her woven from man by the term woman. Notice in 1:26 both genders are called man and in 5:1-2 Adam by god.

The dream meant for man to live in groups one person would leave their femininity dormant and the other their masculinity with the functioning attributes causing the magnetic effect called love. Verse 24 means for each gender to become whole (holy) again both genders would have to ignore heir parent’s teachings not to do the things pertaining to the other gender so they would not develop the dormant attribute so they could develop it to integrate it into the functioning attribute and their flesh. That is also why the new birth (Jn 3:1-8) or metamorphosis is required before we become whole or holy.

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil could have been called the tree of I Like and I Don’t Like because there is nothing concrete causing every man to recognize good or evil by except their own preference. It is called a tree because fruit trees produce more fruit with each succeeding growing season so as man learn more we would like and dislike more things naming then other Judgmental Adjectives like pretty/ugly, nice/terrible, right/wrong and so forth.

In Mat 10:16 it is written “be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves” making it known serpents symbolizes wisdom – which will destroy civilization – rather than evil, after all, man generally “call evil good, and good evil” (Isaiah 5:20). Thus, the garden’s serpent was also the mother who appeared to Eve and showed her the differences in things such as taste, smells, and the like and she liked half of each category and rejected the other then encouraged Adam like and dislike the same things.

Daniel 4:33 reveals man in the self-reproducing environment were as hairy an any other animal. The opposites revealing to Eve was about the time of her ovulating. However, boys erections does not extend beyond the foreskin and Eve’s observing the other animals would not allow him to enter her with the hairy foreskin. Adam’s mother returned as the voice again caused them to hid and, because of their shame of not knowing how to mate, covered their reproduction organs.

What is called the Adam curse told them what would happen to them. Man’s would increasing in an area would require the boy to become farmers. Because of his ignorance of his wife’s pregnancy, he would provide for her and she would become submissive to him. The coat of skin made for them was the removal of the body hair so they could mate with the foreskin. The flame on the sword represents having our minds purified of the liking and disliking (Dan 12:10) and the sword means man will have to be cut away from all attachments (Mat 19:29) before qualifying to return to the Self-reproducing environment. The tree of life means man would return to eating raw like all other animals what Gen 1:28 provided man. By eating some of all seed producing plants man would maintain a balanced in our body’s eco system and there would no longer be diseases.

Realizing man were given “dominion powers” – exceed the abilitie of – in 1:26 and Adam was not. In (6:1-4) man with dominion powers are called “sons of god” and Adam’s descendants are “daughter’s of man.” The latter is because god didn’t inform Adam he named his descendants woman and since girls are daughters and boy are sons we are being informed everyone without dominion abilities are woman [also meaning incomplete man]. Thus, the great flood was of ignorance (Rev 12:15) which killed the dominion abilities out of everyone except one tribe of each of the 4 primary ethnics, Noah Asians, Japheth Native Americans, Ham African and Shem Europeans and was the completion of the rising of this morning civilization.

Most of the rest of the Bible is about is about events of the end time using events of biblical day as symbols of the termination of today’s world.

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