Gods toolbox.

wilderness asked...

If no one should attempt coercion, why do so many Christians insist that laws be made to force their beliefs on everyone (gay marriage, creationism in school, public prayer and religious icons, etc.)? All of this is coercion and all of it is being fought somewhere. It is a never ending battle to keep the Christian faith to itself and not allow it to force itself onto the rest of the population.

Christians should have no part of government, I agree with that, I have not voted for nearly 30 years, but I do pray that God will give us a good government frequently over the same period.

You see I truly do not want to be a part of this world, don't get me wrong, I love my family and want to enjoy time with them, I love sunsets and most all of what God has given us, but I hate the world for it is against God in the most part.

But I do not seek to impose Christian values by force or ballot box on anyone, and would be much happier if we believers kept to preaching Christ and leave politics to those who politic.

So I have a paradox, and one which most Christians will baulk at, for the unfortunate fact is, though they have faith, they would be frightened to TRUST God to keep their children safe from evolutionary teaching in school, hence they want creationism taught alongside evolution.

I sent my son to a half private school, basically a secular/ex catholic school that taught evolution in class and the Roman Catholic doctrines in religious education.

For most evangelicals that would be a horror story and they would not allow it to happen.

When I wrote 'Evangelical Christian' on the enrolment card, they asked if I wanted him to skip[ Religious Education, and I said "'no way'.....let him have it from you, but I warn you, he may ask questions your teacher cannot answer."

You see I had taught him the ways of God as we walked in the highways and bye-ways of life, his bible was ME, and if I had taught him well, then he should be able to decide whether the evolution his school taught, or the Catholicism his school taught, were correct, or whether what he saw me walk was right.

Later his secular mother wanted him to board at a secular school, and I let him, and they taught him how to lie, and smoke and drink and chase girls, which was OK, because he was 14 and that's what the world teaches is OK, and besides they had been issuing them condoms for two years before that anyway.

Was I going to forbid him being exposed to that hell hole?

Again, no way, if he was going to do all those things, he would either do them and come back to God, or not. You see if my son was not destined to be a believer, that was his problem, and though it would have hurt me if he had died unsaved, I will not rebel against Gods decision, one it's pointless, and two He knew my son better than me.

I'm also not a hypocrite, and I was doing far worse than he managed until I was 42 years old.

I may have wanted my son to be a good Christian and never openly sin, but God chooses His time to call or appoint who He will, and like I said, I was 42 before I came to faith.

Fact is we either trust God or we are trusting ourselves, and I know full well that I cannot be trusted to do the right thing on my own, and equally I cannot do the wrong thing when I have placed God in control of my life.

For the record, my son came to faith with no encouragement of leading from me when he was 18 years old, and now ministers to street kids in Brooklyn NYC.

But he raised hell for a couple of years and was stoned pretty constantly for that time.

Proverbs 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go [and in keeping with his individual gift or bent], and when he is old he will not depart from it.

wilderness asked...

No Christian would like to see, or would allow, a display of Wiccan ceremonies at a public meeting - just their own version of the same thing. Complete unwillingness to treat others as they would be treated.

Sorry, not me, I was a Wiccan for a while (42 years searching is a long time)not good for me as I was too likely to drift into the darker side.

But in PUBLIC (i.e. secular) ceremonies I have no concern what or who they present, indeed I relish the fact that the 'enemy' camp is being exposed, for it will make believers think and hopefully draw them closer to God, and it will make the sheeple realise that they ARE being let to the slaughter by those who seek to destroy them, whilst smiling gently at them saying 'be tolerant' whilst trying to ban Christ from the public arena.

Scripture tells us that apostasy MUST take place before the end will come, and I thank God that I do see this apostasy happening, for it means our redemption is near, and the iniquity will be washed away from our lives.

I grant you that many professing Christians who do not TRUST God seek to manipulate, intimidate and coerce the world by force into acceptance of Gods morality and principals, and they are wrong, which is sad, but like I said the Apostasy must happen, and they are just aiding and assisting it to take place.

When you join with the world, you become like them, and remember we believers are instructed to be IN the world but not OFF the world, for if we trust in God, then the world has nothing on us.

wilderness asked...

Matthew 22:14 may be used by you as a reason to publish your hubs, but it is also used by the nut on the street corner screaming through a bullhorn that we will burn in Hell if we don't conform. One is not only acceptable but welcomed, the other is obnoxious and coercive.

Sorry - I get a little riled about the coercion from Christians claiming they never do that. To the point I wrote a hub about it - the only religious hub I've ever written.

The 'the nut on the street corner screaming through a bullhorn that we will burn in Hell' actually means well, he has probably just stopped feeling the fires of hell burning his pants and wants to save everyone, he has a little or a lot of bible and not much understanding, he is looking like he is a liability to Christ.

But equally he may reach one fellow sinner who is also feeling the flames leaping up his pants, and that is what makes him OK with God.

Matthew 18:11-13

For the Son of man came to save [from the penalty of eternal death] that which was lost.

What do you think?

If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray and gets lost, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountain and go in search of the one that is lost?

And if it should be that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not get lost.

I was one of them for a while also, and know how both you and he feels.

Did I bring anybody to Christ with my bullhorn?

No idea, but if I see someone come up to me in eternity and thank me, I will know then.

One sows, another reaps.

I once had an enormous problem with Benny Hinn, would rage in front of the TV cringing at what he did..."Why do you allow Hinn to do this" I asked God, and got the reply, "Could YOU reach these people" and looking at his audience I could see that I could not.

Horses for courses and the human being comes in all shapes and sizes, and therefore God uses ALL the tools that are in the toolbox to get the job done.

So you see nothing is quite what it may seem in the Kingdom of God, and secularists can be forgiven (literally) for not understanding how things work in the kingdom.

It's an upside down kingdom, where the first come last, where the weak are strong and where those who exalt themselves on earth will lose their reward in eternity.

The man who professes to have knowledge, but does not know God is considered a fool, and naturally (literally) secularists get insulted by that, which again is understandable, but also unavoidable.

We all have a God shaped hole in us, what matters is what we fill it with.

In summation if Christians spent their energy on seeking to trust God 100% instead of getting involved in world politics, we would all benefit, for those efforts, matched with prayer to God, would cause a revival in this dead and hopeless world.

2.5 billion believers who learned how to trust God, and to let God answer their prayer, would bring about widespread restoration of morality, good governments who cared for their people and greater prosperity and assistance to those who needed it most.

Wars would cease and the money spent on the military establishment would or could be diverted to solving world hunger and poverty.

Islam would crumble as the power of the LIVING GOD was unleashed over the world, and Muslims saw Christ revealed.

But I fear this will not happen, for God HAS knowledge of the end as well as the beginning, and His word tells us that apostasy will prevail before the end game is played, that humanity will seek ever more knowledge and have less understanding, and that iniquity will increase, along with wars and rumours of wars, that earthquakes and floods will rage in 'diverse places' and that the AntiChrist will impose a New World Order that all will need to swear allegiance to when they collapse the money supply.

All these things are happening NOW, together, and our redemption (as believers) draws near.

All the citizens of the world need to decide is how to fill that God shaped hole.

More by this Author


Comments 38 comments

aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 4 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks snowdrop, I appreciate both the comment and the vote up, plus the opportunity to re read something I wrote a while ago. I can still stand by what was written.

John


snowdrops profile image

snowdrops 4 years ago from The Second Star to the Right

I like this hub.Very interesting and thought provoking!

Voted UP.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 4 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Lady E,

I do ignore reactive comments generally, and always try to tell it as it is, and when I am wrong, accept the correction!

(Love the line in 'The Princes Bride" uttered by the wicked Prince: "If I am wrong, and I am NEVER wrong" LOL!


Lady_E profile image

Lady_E 4 years ago from London, UK

Very interesting and thought provoking Hub. Ignore any negative comments you may have about it. Sometimes, you just have to say it, as it is.

Best Wishes.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Enlydia, in the final analysis it's everyone's choice that will get them where they want and deserve to be.

Our best protection for children is contained in the bible, teach them the ways of God and they will not stray when they are older.

Of course some stray while they are younger, but God will still get to them in the end provided we have introduced Him to them when we were the custodians.


Enlydia Listener profile image

Enlydia Listener 5 years ago from trailer in the country

I'm glad that I stopped to read this. I agree that you can not protect your kids from the world (as much as you want to)...and you can not save them. That must be their choice.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi Heart,

Mine is not a prescription for child raising, I am no Dr Spock! but Jaime seems to have turned out just fine and we all need to work with what we have, all children are different.

When Jaime was 12 we relocated inland to a small town called Ronda in Spain, high in the mountains and only 40,000 souls. I went there because I knew that Jaime would have less exposure to the ways of the world up in the mountains than he would down on the coast, which was basically a resort area.

It worked, his Spanish became truly 'native' and he was spared the exposure for another three years until he went away to boarding school down on the coast.

Thanks for the read, and hope it was worth reading!

John


heart4theword profile image

heart4theword 5 years ago from hub

This is a different way of looking at things, not my way for my child. I see what your saying, from your point of view. Looks like you stirred up allot of response on this hub!


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi sharonlyn, thanks for reading, I am not stating that Christians should not vote, everyone has the right to vote for who they feel is best, and indeed once God has been elected to decide the outcome, He can direct our votes to the right candidate.

Speaking personally I chose not to vote, mainly because from the time I was able to vote I have always lived in areas where the candidate to win was known beforehand, due to the balance of votes in favour of that party.

My vote was effectively useless, and I have always known that, if I supported the candidate that would win by a large majority, it increased their majority by 1, and vice versa where I did not favour the candidate everyone knew would win, by a large majority, my one vote was never going to make a difference, because people tend to vote for the party and not the candidate.

Should I ever be entitled to vote again, and if I lived in a marginal constituency, that may change my mind, and I may ask God who I should support.

For 26 years I have had no entitlement to vote, my nation of birth counts me as a citizen who has abandoned them, hence I have no right to vote in the UK, and my nation of choice do not allow me to vote in more than local elections, and in any case, the same as above would apply.

Where I currently reside denies me any vote in their affairs also.

Being a fiscal and physical nomad has some drawbacks, but the benefits far exceed the losses!

The rest I agree with, and state in the article that Matthew 25 is not a government concern, it is part of the job description we entail when we come to faith.


sharonlyn profile image

sharonlyn 5 years ago from the Midwest

My only comments are: sometimes prayer and action go hand in hand. As Christians, I do believe we are not given to prayer near as much as we need to be. However, if we have prayed, there is also many times action that goes along with prayer. If we sit at home and pray for people to feed the homeless, and don't go, who will God send? if we pray for someone to reach the lost, but don't go, who will God send? If we pray for leaders to be elected that will uphold Christian values, who will vote for them? That is the whole subject of the book of James....we are not saved by our works, but show our faith by acting. Voting after praying, I believe is what is needed.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Ok Philanthropy2012, I will cover your hubs points, but it will need a hub of it's own, so what I will do, time and yourself permitting,is copy the text and answer each point in question.

To avoid duplication problems with HubPages, I will try to edit your points without changing context.

If I do miss the context of anything, we can deal with those points either in our respective comments boxes or in the forum, or by private email.

I will not have the chance to answer this before the weekend at the earliest, as I have two major deals happening right now and I have no time to put the hub I will do together.

Good hub, with some good positions, it should be fun and maybe we will both learn or understand more!

Obviously I will link with your hub, and when I am published, maybe you will link with mine?

John


Philanthropy2012 profile image

Philanthropy2012 5 years ago from London

Hey, some very good points and I agree with what you say. However, it is because I do not believe in God and feel Christianity is holding humanity back. If you have time, I would very much appreciate your views on my hub

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/God-Is-A-S...

Where I argue that if God did exist, he would have to be a sadist.

I have yet to find any arguments against this and so It would really be helpful for me as a person if you would give me any counter arguments you can think of.

Thank you.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

So true WD, I read yesterday that the Church of England were looking at their investment portfolio with a view to deciding whether their investments in ISP providers was supporting pornography, well we all know that 85% of internet searches are for porn, so it does not take much to understand that they ARE supporting porn.

The disclosed that they had tens of millions of GB pounds invested.

No wonder they are dropping their numbers like fly's.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

You nailed it. Ministering to the disadvantaged is not the role of government. It is the role of the Church and other private organizations. We have more than enough resources.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

mhaydock thank you for a brave testimony... first, as I understand it, you were not a believer when you divorced your husband, and as such were in rebellion, which was your sin, not the divorce. The world has no such taboos.

Secondly, you were sent a man of God to marry, and married him in the sight of the congregation I presume, and therefore he is your only marriage in the Lord (and your last!)

Thirdly, Matthew 25 is a rema verse for myself and my home church, and when I was in Spain we fed the homeless three days every week; actually in competition with other local churches, we had to select our days and sometimes our homeless would 'dine' elsewhere!

We won out primarily because we had built showers and washing facilities for clothing, plus have a good thrift shop that can provide clothes for the (mainly) men who we cater for.

Feeding the homeless is not a government thing, it's part of the job description.

"is it enough just to pray that we get better leadership?"

Yes.

The fervent prayer of a righteous man (or woman) achieves much I am told, and if a nation (and 83% represents a nation, it's over 300 million American believers)will turn to God in prayer, and maybe hold a solemn assembly, your government will change from the roots to the top of the tree.

1 Timothy 2

FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way.

For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior.

Good discussion, and with the advantage that no secularist can come and make inanities, this is what the forums SHOULD be like.

Thank you for sharing, and commenting.

John


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

I would not want to sniff anyone's conker. I'll just swing away.

I am not in a popularity contest either. David screwed up when he stayed home from battle that year. He was off task. The fact is . . . the Lord would have us take advantage of the opportunity he has given us. We aren't to wait for him to do the work he has given us to do. Be in the world, but not of it. We are sealed by his Holy Spirit. He who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world. Perfect Love casts out fear.


mhaydock profile image

mhaydock 5 years ago from Illinois

here's a thought, if we are instructed to feed and clothe the needy, not just bless them, is it enough just to pray that we get better leadership? But on the other hand, if God's in control, he's certainly aware of who he has allowed to be in leadership, even when those people are corrupt. It's a fallen world in every sense of the word. Corrupt leadership is a call to prayer that hearts and minds will be moved. Ever read the book Riven? I highly recommend it. It is such a vivid, frightening vision of what happens in the spirit realm around us every day. I believe that Jerry Jenkins was truly anointed in writing this book; that God wanted readers to really grasp just what we are up against every day and the power of prayer and standing in the gap for people.

I am comforted in knowing though that the enemy's time is drawing to a close. I wait in great anticipation for the Lord's return. As a final thought and I then I will let this all go, though what stimulating conversation you have provided, I know in my heart that divorce is not God's will (work with me here) for marriage. But as an unbeliever, I was divorced 8 years ago. I vividly recall the Wed. night on my way home from teaching music lessons the sudden clarity I had about filing for divorce. I had lived in dread because my husband had threatened to take the kids and the house, blah,blah, blah, and for 18 years couldn't leave a man I loved but wasn't in love with, who drank to excess and spent every dime we had. He wasn't a bad man, just a lost one and I didn't want to be with him. I wanted my own life. But on that night, a peace I didn't understand clearly said to me that this was the night. So I sat him down, and told him I wanted a divorce, that I was serious, and that was it. I explained why and sent him to bed. I was also 90 lbs overweight with three kids. Over the next 6 months, I lost all that weight, bought a new house with my dad's help and moved the kids out. (stay with me, I have a point) On one of my court days, my husband was petitioning to have custody of the kids without allowing me any visitation. Not being a believer yet, but having a believing neighbor, she prayed with me and asked me if I was fasting. I knew what fasting was but not WHAT it was. So I said I would fast for 3 days and then promised God that if he gave me the kids I would get baptized (all this time God had been wooing my heart and I was going to a church that practiced water baptism). Well, I fasted, God delivered, and I got scared. In the meantime, God sent a Christian man in to my life who although I was living a very secular life as a single person and should have stayed away from getting involved with me, did get involved. Very involved, and involved in my children's lives. He started witnessing to me and my children and a month after we met, led us all to the Lord and I finally fulfilled my promise to God and got baptized, saw my 9 year old at the time daughter get baptized, and my oldest son a few years later get baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit. We were married about two years after meeting and our family is strong in the Lord while my ex has continued to deteriorate physically and mentally. God hated that divorce, but he wrought amazing change in the lives of four people through it. So while our leadership may grieve God's heart, I believe that like my divorce, with praying people as you rightly suggest, and with people bold enough to take a seat in local or national government and lead with humility and the Holy Spirit's guidance, God will bring about change through corruption. I can never expect to understand why or how God does what he does, and I struggle with why a good Good allows bad things, but I am continually strengthened knowing that he's in charge, has it all firmly in the palm of his hand and won't let us fall as long as we allow him to handle things.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Like I said WD, I put my child through state schools, and allowed the enemy to take a swing at my *'conker' and God won out with my boy, so I am no reclusive believer, my money goes where my faith is.

But there are stories aplenty in scripture also of men who got 'diverted' by the enemy from Gods works, and they and their citizens paid the price.

David is one good example that comes to mind, mostly perfect in opposition and quite ghastly at times when in power.

I'm not in a popularity contest, just stating my observations, and I have been near the seat of power to know what I am talking about.

I used to know the guy who pulled the strings that operated the Conservative Party when they were in power, and he was never elected, nor ever stood for election.

'Poly' = many and 'ticks' = parasites.

John

* For non English speakers a 'conker'is a horse chestnut you harden and hang on a piece of leather string, then (in the playground) you hold your conker up and the other guy takes a swing at it.

If the conker has been correctly hardened, it will not shatter, and then you take a swing at the other guys conker, carry on until one guys conker shatters. Good game, but only if you have correctly hardened the conker in the first place.

Used to be played in autumn in the UK, probably too tied up with their iPhones to play it today.

If you play it, always smell the other guys conker, he may have cheated and marinated it in vinegar to make it harder.

I marinated my son in the Holy Spirit, when it comes to playing the enemy, it's permitted to cheat.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

For some reason, I think of Daniel . . . carried away by the enemy into slavery. He stayed true. He was the valedictorian at the University of Babylon. He rose to the highest level of government despite constant plots against him. He was retained by the new government after the war. He was the major contributor to the success of both empires.

I think of how evangelicals run from the world to send their children to private Christian schools. I was an art teacher in one for a year. In this country, the Lord would have us stay in public schools, join the PTA, run for the county school board, and volunteer as mentors for the remedial reading program. This is not just an opinion either, brother. Can you feel the juice?


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi mhaydock, we don't really disagree, just see things from a slightly differing angle.

Local authority involvement, is probably manageable for a Godly person to deal with and stay faithful to the Lord.

My main thrust is that I would rather the 83% of professing Christians simply prayed to God for a Godly government, and that Gods will be done, not theirs.

I believe that if that were achieved, God could put the right men into power, and the enemy would be less likely to divert them from Gods purposes.

John


mhaydock profile image

mhaydock 5 years ago from Illinois

Well I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Because I believe that to really be bold for Christ, you have to be willing to be in the front lines knowing your exposure to the enemy is a risk. But like Jesus who entered the desert full of the Holy Spirit, we don't go in unprepared. And I still stand firm that if God calls us to ministry as politicians, then without all the political who-ha, I believe he will anoint us in that position when we choose to serve him first in that capacity to impact the people for Christ. There is a great deal of mockery in the world of politics, and many a great leader has been brought down by the enemy of our souls through the lure of pride. Most of us are never in a position in our lives to truly be heard on a public platform. Most of us aren't famous celebrities who we listen to more than anyone it seems, (thank you Oprah for impacting the culture with half-truths and a muddied version of what Jesus desired for us with your series on the power of positive thinking)swallow whatever false teaching they're selling at the time and hold them up in high regard as authorities on whatever subject they buy in to or get a kick back from. Most of us aren't in a position to promote our faith to the masses. We have to do it one person at a time. So I would suggest that although politician has become a dirty word, just imagine for a moment the impact someone truly bold for Christ in his or her position as say a mayor, or even just an alderman (I don't know what that is in the UK) in a small town could make in a community.We know that even Jesus ate with thieves, liars, and tax collectors because it was when he was among the unbelievers that His greatest work was done. Even His disciples wondered about this practice and He certainly took a lot of criticism from the Pharisees for it! In my church we're taught that the mission field is right in our own back yard. It starts with our families and goes out from there. What greater opportunity to take a bold stand for Christ than in a position of public authority. I don't suggest we spend our lives hanging out with unsavory characters, but I would ask, is it a greatest danger to hang out on the streets ministering to the homeless, faithless, lost, degraded, filthy vermin ridden with all their language, habits, and sultry provocations that to hang out in the lofty whitewashed halls of government with the homeless lost souls and vermin infested who have given their lives over to degraded pride, filthy propaganda, filthy language, and the sultry provocative lure of pride and public image? I would suggest don't be too quick to judge where the worst of the worst truly live. It's really just a matter of perspective my friend.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi mhaydock, Handbags aren't exactly my thing, but I'll send my wife over fro a look! and thanks for the invite.

My point about being in government (and I do not mean government employ, I mean POLITICIAN) is as I stated it:

"When you join with the world, you become like them, and remember we believers are instructed to be IN the world but not OFF the world, for if we trust in God, then the world has nothing on us."

Unfortunately when we have to mingle with the world, the enemy has a much greater ability to disable our ethics, morality and faith.

Your exposure in the front line to enemy fire is obviously greater than in the supplies depot back at HQ, and snipers aim for the officers before they start on the grunts.

Even IN ministry many men of God get disabled when they rise to great authority, and I doubt that too many men and women who enter politics do it viewing it as ministry.

To succeed in government in the world, you need to learn the first word of political existence: COMPROMISE.

The second word is AMBITION, followed by the acceptance that you need a BROWN NOSE (and I am not being racial, it just sound better than the other phrase!)

When I was in property, in Central London, I got to know 125 Members of the British Parliament well; as clients and friends, and as I was in possession of ALL those 'qualities' at the time, the day came when one of my business contacts, who ran a bank (and later served time for money laundering) approached me to enter Parliament. "Which party?" was my first question "Any one you want" was his reply, "We need politicians in all of them, to serve our interests".

I was tempted, they knew I could orate well, had a profile that would meet any party I chose, (working class boy made good)and were prepared to drop a suitable donation to get me on the 'approved candidate' list, which ensures election unless you do something really stupid at the selection board.

They also knew I understood the rules of engagement.

In the end I refused, for the same reasons I opted out of joining the coven,for even then I knew that I had a propensity for doing wrong when in possession or power.

When we come to faith, we are a new creation, but it's the immersion in the Holy Spirit that marinades us into a new person, so what we are immersed in will determine our 'flavor' boil a Seville orange in sugar and you get sweet marmalade with a tangy taste, soak onions in vinegar and spices and they will bite you head off.

That's what I mean about government.

To rise to the top takes years of immersion in a corrupt place, where 'good men and women' will guide you to exactly where you will be most useful, to them or their party.

Plus you have the uncomfortable fact that in order to 'rise to the top' in politics, you NEED to profess whatever religion is prevelant in the country you are aiming to rule (sorry...lead).

America is currently led by someone who was born a Muslim, yet professes Christianity. That would be admirable, except that by Islamic law he is an 'infidel' and as a 'converted Muslim' they SHOULD have issued a death sentence upon him, yet NOTHING has even been discussed in the Islamic press about thet.

In the UK we had Tony Blair (nicknamed B'LIAR) who converted to Roman Catholicism once he left power. Nothing wrong with becoming 'officially' a Catholic, I know many good believers who are, but there is something wrong in NOT showing your 'colours' in order to get to the top spot, and I doubt that a Catholic would be allowed to rise to the very top in UK politics, especially as on November 5th each year British kids still celebrate 'Guy Fawkes Day' when the burn an effigy of said Mr Fawkes in honor of his foiled plot to blow the English Parliament up.

I ramble too long, but I guess you get the drift.


WD Curry 111 profile image

WD Curry 111 5 years ago from Space Coast

This is a heartfelt hub if there ever was one. Wilderness has done a great job of stimulating thought and discussion. he is an intelligent, articulate man. I was overwhelmed by your honest account of you son's experience. I went off to military school to prep for the Academy. I learned to drink bourbon. He who is forgiven much, loves much. We know our sin and love becomes indiscriminate. We want others to know this and it seems a tragic flaw in the system that someone else might depend on me to present salvation to them.


mhaydock profile image

mhaydock 5 years ago from Illinois

Wow. I think I need to go back and take notes before I can properly reply. But of your words I will say this. I'm not sure that God didn't mean for us not to serve in government when you stand on be in the world not of the world. I believe without hesitation that God meant for us not to follow the ways of the world. The problem with government is that not enough believers are serving with boldness. We need Christians in our positions of leadership. If we're instructed in Paul's words to respect and obey the laws of the land so long as they do not conflict with God's laws, then it should follow that strong leadership that's guided by the Holy Spirit can help to bring about a change for the better in government. Of course, with that being said, I completely agree that we are in the midst of apostasy but I don't think that means to throw the baby out with bath water and forgo still trying to make a difference by being bold for Christ and seeing positions of leadership to impact if not the world, that at the least our local communities for the cause of Christ. And I don't know if you have warts, but I'm sure they look great on you!

As for me, I choose to impact at least the handbag market and so I try to bold on my business website. If people don't want to buy from me because of it, at least they may have read my thoughts there and a seed will have been planted. Have a gander if you wish http://www.bffecooriginals.com/

Love your words Brother


Quirinus profile image

Quirinus 5 years ago from Sitting on the Rug

"we either trust God or we are trusting ourselves" is what struck me most about your hub. I find things effortlessly done when turned over to God, but keep going back to my old ways of "trusting myself". With practice, it should get better. Thanks for the reminder, aguasilver!


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Sorry Dave, not aware I was endlessly preaching! - I like to answer comments in full if I can, and in fact see comments as an interactive part of the hub.

Apologies if I have offended you.

John


DavePrice profile image

DavePrice 5 years ago from Sugar Grove, Ill

Enjoyed your words, but hate the endless sermon comments which insist on telling you that you're wrong. We all walk our own paths, all subject to our own conscience - if christians could just learn to leave others to their walk and simply love them instead of judging we'd all be better off. Thanks for sharing your journey.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

UlrikeGrace, thank you for your comments, and I am delighted if this hub can direct your path to be in the world but not off it.

Remember, the world has NOTHING on me only comes into effect when we are hidden in Christ and totally TRUST that Gods word OVER RULES the word of man.

Let the world meander into apostasy and iniquity, save those you can, and stay out of things that are Gods concern not ours.... we are only denizens of this world (go on, look it up!)


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Hi SusieQ42, I am afraid "hopefully he will be a believer in Jesus!" is not the answer.

Sometimes God places a man who is not a good President or Prime Minister, or leader....in order to let the people have what their hearts desire, and allow them to see how badly things can turn out.

Currently we see and have seen many world leaders who have cause the people much hardship, because they have instigated ungodly policies or allowed secular politics to rule the day.

What God requires is a 'vote' for Him, which means voting with our prayers that GODS WILL BE DONE, even if that means we will endure hardships.

God want OUR vote and that is given by electing to live by His will, not our own.

When Christ elected to do Gods will, not His own, in Gethsemane, we won the biggest landslide victory ever, when Christ defeated the enemy and Death was removed from power over our lives.

John


lone77star profile image

lone77star 5 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

That is a beautiful toolbox, John. Very nicely explained.

I remember one painfully shy boy walking next door to the neighborhood park with his Bible, uncertain what to do, never having read the entire book, but talking to another young boy about Jesus. Within minutes, he was surrounded by children of all ages -- 2 or 3 dozen of them. All of them seemed polite and even hungry for the message. They had sought him out and stayed.

I guess Wilderness looks at the message as a burden and doesn't realize that Christians, when they tell others, are not "harming" others with the message. They are indeed applying the Golden Rule. Christ was on a rescue mission. God's children had lost their way as if down a deep well. It would be only compassionate for his siblings to help in that rescue. To do nothing as Wilderness suggests would be an act of turning our backs on the Golden Rule.

The young boy in the park had no idea who would be offended by or interested in the message. Some hearts will be fertile soil, others will be rocky crags for the seeds being planted. But if one withholds the seed, it will surely never have a chance to grow, and the rescue of that one, or the many, would surely fail.

Many of those at the bottom of the well have grown accustomed to the cold, dark, damp wetness and view rescue as an intrusion to that relative "comfort." Sometimes, the message gets through and a glimmer of memory comes back to them of a time when they enjoyed the light and warmth of God's love.


SusieQ42 5 years ago

I can understand your need to stay out of politics but we are Americans and need to vote. I don't like the political arguments, but I do want to see the best man win, and hopefully he will be a believer in Jesus!


UlrikeGrace profile image

UlrikeGrace 5 years ago from Canada

Wow...that is quite the hub...lately my husband and I have been having these intense discussions as to what it really means to live in the world but not of the world. What does it mean to leave the world ways and systems behind and follow hard after God? We are in our middle age and my husband has come from a very secular/athiestic family background whereas I came from a religious/atheistic background. (christianity as a lifestyle rather than a life) We both came to faith in our late 20's but have struggled with the diversities in the "chritian" walk. Both comeing to recogonize our own failings and worldly weaknesses and God's pull towards Him in faith. Your hub is timely and very challenging (in a good way). We lack voices like yours in the greater church. And sadly (we have as well) end up trying to do God's work for Him. Like He needs our help.

Thank you for your hub...I can't wait til my husband reads this and the ensuing discussion that will follow. Blessiings to you. Ulrike Grace


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Thanks Brother.

John


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

Amen John! I get what you are saying.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

Dave, I render my vote via God, if I rely upon MY judgement to elect a government, I will be wrong.

I pray for effective and Godly government, God decides who governs and the people get the government they deserve.

I doubt you would ever see Christ's name on a ballot paper, He would never be involved in politics, had he stood for political power when he was here on earth, then Satan would have won, for that is what the enemy offered Christ when He was in the wilderness:

----------------------------------

Matthew 4:9-11

Amplified Bible (AMP)

And he said to Him, These things, all taken together, I will give You, if You will prostrate Yourself before me and do homage and worship me.

Then Jesus said to him, Begone, Satan! For it has been written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.

Then the devil departed from Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

----------------------------------

To be a politician is to accept the enemies conditions. I have been too near the seat of power not to know this, and I too was offered Satan's contract, and I too refused to buy the lie.

""Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's" (to me) means leave what the world does to the world.

Currently the world is run by politicians and rulers who are allowed to win by the Illuminati cartel that actually run things, seven families to be precise, they are the head of the 1% that needs removal, but will be allowed to continue bringing this world into the correct alignment for the Antichrist to appear.

I welcome that day, despite the horror it will mean for believers if Christ tarries.

There is no point in voting, all the elections are rigged before they take place.

My voice is heard from this ballot box, and God hears my prayers, and God is who matters, not the corrupt political system of the enemy.


Dave Mathews profile image

Dave Mathews 5 years ago from NORTH YORK,ONTARIO,CANADA

John dear brother: "Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's does not just mean monetarily. Although as a Christian we are not part of this world, we have an obligation to take part in the democratic process of voting. I'm sure if you saw Jesus on a ballot, you would vote in a heartbeat. If I lend not my voice through my vote, then I have no right to a voice whatsoever.


aguasilver profile image

aguasilver 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain Author

"Do you not accept that God will guide a searcher to you for help? That should be enough - there is no need to intrude on others peace and quiet to apread the word that they don't want to hear."

That is how I have evangelised for years, waiting for the big finger of God to appear over someone's head and say "This one" and it has worked well, my early bullhorn days were 16 years ago, we move on as we learn better skills.

The problem is that you are trying to find ways to stop people being exposed to evangelism, whereas God is intent on finding people who need to hear about Christ.

In my secular years I guess there may have been more than a few evangelists sent to speak with me, and I shrugged them off, no problem, just 'God botherers' as I saw it then.

Why the offence?

What is is that someone expressing an opinion that differs from yours that is so offensive?

As a secularist, why are you bothered about God botherers?

I ask YOU those questions, no need for an answer, except to yourself.

And yes God does guide folk to us, but those folk may have been 'exposed' to God botherers many times, before the hard shell that surrounds their hearts and the spiritual powers who have a hold on them have been weakened by God, and His 'God botherers' presentation of the message.

If the people of God just stayed at home, quiet and never speaking to people unless asked, many people may never be saved, locked in a prison created by the world around them, and spiritually dead or at least spiritually deaf.

No violation of the Golden Rule, we are all barraged daily by people under enemy control who seek to violate my space with enemy inspired messages designed to separate a human being from Gods love.

Turn on a TV or open a magazine.

Lets face it many of them work the forums looking for those they may devour.

I have dealt with what you called "Satan worshippers" since I came to faith, on many occasions, no problem, in fact to me they have sometimes been sent by God as suitable candidates to be saved, and some have.

I have led spiritualists, crooks, murderers and all other manner of folk who would probably have also shared your opinion, to the Lord.

One guy had been told by his 'voices' to kill me whilst I slept (he was staying at my house) and had the knife ready to do it (he was ex forces) but found himself incapable of moving from his room. He came to faith.

God guides and He protects also.

Most of them probably had no idea they were serving the enemy as a slave, but God knows our hearts and He does know that exact moment when they will be open to receive Him.

So whilst I fully understand your desire that believers should stay silent, I do wonder if that is ACTUALLY your desire, or one provoked in you by the enemy, and who knows, maybe one day you will write to tell me how and why you came to faith?

One sows, another reaps.


wilderness profile image

wilderness 5 years ago from Boise, Idaho

It sounds like you are to be congratulated in your "failure" to promote Christianity through legal means, but only a small trophy, not the big one. Third place, not first.

The reason I say that is that you claim you are not one of the offenders, but that you are an evangelical Christian. To me that means the street corner nut screaming in a microphone and making a huge nuisance of himself. It means the person visiting a country where they aren't wanted and preaching heresy where the law forbids it. It means the two young men that come by weekly to bang on my door and demand that I listen to their fairy tales. While a very occasional person may welcome these activities, the vast majority consider it nothing but an obnoxious intrusion in their lives.

Why doesn't the evangelist take note of this and stay home? You don't want to be bothered by the Satan worshipers down the road knocking on your door every night trying to convert you - why do the same thing to others? You don't want anyone handing out free birth control to your child - why hand out your offensive literature to others? It comes down to violating that golden rule I referenced in your first quote from me. As an evangelical Christian you violate that rule every day of your life, but blithely accept it as OK because, after all, you know better than your neighbor how they should live and you only want to help them.

Do you not accept that God will guide a searcher to you for help? That should be enough - there is no need to intrude on others peace and quiet to apread the word that they don't want to hear.

    Sign in or sign up and post using a HubPages Network account.

    0 of 8192 characters used
    Post Comment

    No HTML is allowed in comments, but URLs will be hyperlinked. Comments are not for promoting your articles or other sites.


    Click to Rate This Article
    working