I Don't Believe in Unicorns!

No Unicorns
No Unicorns | Source

Group About Something I Don't Believe In

I DON'T BELIEVE IN UNICORNS, AND I'M STARTING A GROUP FOR ALL NON UNICORN BELIEVERS TO JOIN. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF UNICORNS, PLEASE JOIN ME IN THE INTERNATIONAL FIGHT TO BRING AWARENESS TO EVERYONE WHO MAY BELIEVE. WE WILL LOOK INTO SETTING UP A RALLY SO WE CAN ALL COME TOGETHER AND STATE OUR ISSUES AND FRUSTRATIONS. WE WILL ALSO BE PICKETING WASHINGTON D.C. SO THEY MAKE A LAW TO NO LONGER ALLOW UNICORN BELIEVERS TO BE ABLE TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN, AND WE WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO HAVE UNICORNS REMOVED FROM TELEVISION, MOVIES, BOOKS, AND THE INTERNET! WE WILL SOON BE OFFERING PARAPHERNALIA (SHIRTS, HATS, SIGNS, BUMPER STICKERS, ETC) THAT WILL STATE OUR DISBELIEF OF THESE UNREAL CREATURES. I FEEL THAT A WORLD THAT BELIEVES IN UNICORNS IS IN PERIL. IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED TRULY HATEFUL AND EVEN CHILD ABUSE TO ALLOW YOUNG CHILDREN TO BELIEVE IN SUCH A FICTIONAL CHARACTER. WE NEED TO REALLY THINK ABOUT HOW UNICORN BELIEVERS ARE RUINING OUR SOCIETY AND OUR CHILDREN'S PSYCHE.

Atheist "Slaves" billboard torn down by religious nutters

Words Purposefully Taken Out of Context

It's something that happens all the time, and even "Christians" do it at times. But how far should we actually allow loving words to be taken out of context without fighting back? The real Christ followers (not just the "Christians" who are pridefully screaming) need to learn to be just as vocal as atheists are. But atheists rallies always seem to spew hate and anger. I guess that is the opposite of GOoD, so they have proven their point.

Peace or Anger?

Religionists and atheists debate at the Reason Rally on the National Mall, 24 March 2012 in Washington, DC
Religionists and atheists debate at the Reason Rally on the National Mall, 24 March 2012 in Washington, DC | Source

What's Your Opinion:

Should America's majority change to accomidate a small percentage?

See results without voting

What's Really Going On Here?

Okay, okay! I know most of you are like "What is this about?" I know this is unlike most of my other articles, but I feel like getting my questions and thoughts out there anyway.

I am not really starting a group about the non existence of unicorns. While it would be kind of fun/funny to do so, it would be an extreme waste of my time and energy, and I have way more important things to be doing. On that note, I am so confussed as to why it has become so necessary to start a vocal group of any kind about a non belief. I mean, you either believe in something or you don't. If you don't believe in it... then why invest so much of your time and energy into it? Is it really just because you don't believe in something, or is it because you don't like the people who do believe in it?

Let's take atheism into consideration. If you don't believe there is an all powerful Being or Creator, why is it not enough to just not believe? I understand having some opinions when the topic arises, but what is really the point of having a community or vocal group of people who get together and talk about how much they don't believe in something. Seems like an extreme waste of time. Are atheist truly coming together to support each other in confirming their decision to not believe in God? Or is it really about a community of folks who want to bash God as much as they can, and tell people who do believe in Him that they are wrong? I've read many articles, have some atheist friends turned acquaintances, searched forums, read materials, and listened to some arguments for atheism, and I keep coming up with the same question: Why do atheist fight so hard for something they don't even believe exists?!

It's my opinion that the original point to an organized atheist group is to target God believing folks, telling them they are wrong, hateful, child abusers, stupid, ignorant, uneducated, dreamers, etc., but that is just my first-hand experience. The only conclusion I've been able to come up with is that Atheism is actually a hate group that targets Christians. I would really like to be wrong, but no one has shown me otherwise yet. Please don't misunderstand my confusion for poking fun. This is seriously a matter I do not understand. There are many things I don't believe in, but I don't invest so much time, energy, or thought into them any further unless the need arises. Example: Unicorns. I don't believe in unicorns. I just don't. But I've never been an activist, formed a group, or berated others for liking or believing in them. The only time I've ever actually put any time into unicorns was recently... just in case anyone stated a rebuttal for the existence of them. LOL!

I do know that atheist organizations want to change the foundations of our nation, and I can understand that Americans want their thoughts to heard and recognized. But, honestly, the people who were here during the foundation of the nation of the United States of America voted to have us being a nation that served God. That's just how it is. Our country doesn't force you to go to church or kill you if you reject Jesus, so I'm not sure I understand the "its offensive" argument. If you don't want to say "One nation under God"... then don't say it. If you don't want your child to read the Bible in school... then homeschool them or tell them not to read the bible in school. If you don't want to see a cross at a veteran's hospital or a manger in front of a courthouse... then look the other way. And I'm extremely confused as to what is so offensive about "Thou shalt not murder, steal, lie, etc." I don't believe there is a group out their trying to take away the rights of atheists, so I don't understand the atheist groups out there trying to take away the rights of those who do believe there is an all powerful Creator.

I would like to acknowledge that I do understand and am sympathetic toward those affected by "immature Christians" or those walking around "claiming the name of Jesus" but who actually do not know who He is. I sincerely apologize for those people. In fact, I was one myself. The true goal of a Christian is to live as closely as possible to how Jesus lived and to develop a character like God's. For those who don't truly know who God is and how He is... this is impossible to do, and it becomes offensive and/or misleading. God is one of absolute love. He is the perfect parent who loves His children unconditionally, but also corrects and redirects His children when they're straying off course. Any parent who does not correct his child, allows them to do whatever, believe whatever, and act however their child-like mind tells them to. And just because something comes naturally, doesn't make it okay. You don't have to teach a child to lie, steal, cheat, be demanding, or be selfish... it's just natural, and its something we need to teach our children how to overcome... just as God teaches us to overcome our natural hate, envy, and selfishness to replace it with love, peace, joy, kindness, and self-control. Most people find true Christianity offensive not because there is a perfect God, but because they don't want to truly believe that they NEED someone else to save them because they are not GOoD enough to earn something on their own.

Please... I welcome your comments, feedback, opinions, and views. Please remember to keep it cordial and polite. We can all express our own opinions with freedom and courtesy at the same time.

Source

Religion in America: According to ABC News Poll

More by this Author


173 comments

JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

I think you mis-categorize and minimize Atheists in your hub. I am an atheist, and I live in a country where the overwhelming majority of people are religious. Religious groups are actively working to try to dictate laws based on religious dogma and ideology, which is dangerous. For example, Christians are actively fighting to restrict the rights of homosexuals, by claiming that homosexuality is against their god's laws, so it should be against America's laws as well - and they form laws against marriage equality. Christians are trying to force creationism and/or intelligent design into science classrooms in public schools, not admitting that creationism as an unproven (and in fact untestable) hypothesis is not the least bit scientific. The need for vocal atheism in support of the separation of church and state, therefore, becomes vital - not only for people who are not religious, but for people of other religions as well. Many Christians fail to recognize the point that if they push religion into public schools or into national laws, they open the door to not only THEIR religious beliefs, but the religious beliefs of others. Would Christians want their children being instructed to pray to Allah in public school? If they want mandatory prayer back in public school, then there is no guarantee (and cannot be under the first amendment) exclusions for ONLY Christian beliefs. Not to mention that Christianity is split into over 40,000 denominations that cannot agree on almost any point from the divinity of Christ to how to pray to how to worship, etc. In the 1800's there was a huge blowup that resulted in bloodshed because Protestants and Catholics couldn't agree on which should be taught in schools.

This country is not a theocracy, and as such, each religious group (or non religious group) has equal access to a vote and a voice, and as long as many Christians attempt to force their version of morality on the rest of the country, there will be secular groups speaking out against it.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Thank you for your respectful comment. I believe that one of the things that originally made America such a great nation (even though there are many faults now) is the right to disagree and leave a government one does not agree with. Unlike many dictatorships, if you don't like what America is founded upon, anyone may move away. Many other nations do not allow you to leave if you disagree. They jail you or kill you if you stand up to them. There are many of America's laws that I do not agree with, and I vote my option accordingly. I do agree that there are many nationalities, beliefs, and opinions that now make up America's citizens. Knowing how my life has become so much more peaceful and hopeful since my understanding of God's ways has me believing that others would have the same peace and hope in life if they understood my God and His intentions the way they were meant to be understood, but I would not force them on anyone. Those who do force God on folks are not sharing His love the way it was meant to be shared. God wil never force Himself on anyone, therefore we should act in like manner. If America chooses to no longer be a nation that serves God, that is her citizens choice, but we just need to be prepared for what follows. Hours after New Zealand legalized gay marriage, jails started fillin with those caught in the act of beastiality. One of the prisoner's comments was, "Now that the gays are allowed to get married, it's like there's no limits anymore. Why not shag a sheep?.... The rules no longer apply." I know some laws seem unfair, but where should the law draw the line? Should there be any laws? What happens when everyone does what is right in their own eyes? Should homosexuality be "illegal"? Well, God doesn't demand that anyone obeys Him. He asks us to listen to His advice because He knows what's healthiest and best for us. Medically, homosexuality has led to many being infected with untreatable diseases. So has having multiple sexual partners. We just keep passing the love/infections around to others. Behind all the things that God claims is right or wrong is really a Dad who is looking out for the spiritual and physics well being of His kids. But like I said earlier, God doesn't force us to listen to Him. We always have the freedom to chose what we want. As pertaining to what is allowed in public schools, the system has strayed so far from its original intentions. It was originally formed so that all people would be able to read the Bible. Our country has long changed since then, and I am an advid believer in being our own children's teacher. I homeschool my children to ensure that they do have the freedom to worship our God and learn about Him as I believe God originally intended. I believe if the unproven theory of evolution is taught in public schools, so should the theory of creation by intelligent design. I know most don't want to jump on board with creationism being provable, but one pretty darn good book called "Has God Spoken" shows some hard to disput scientific facts that back up the Bible's teachings amazingly. It's definitely worth a glance. It was written by a scientist named A.O. Schnable. If you're truly open to studying all the possibilities, check out this book. But one must also keep in mind that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was in fact, just a theory, and should not be taught as scientific fact. Also, knowing Darwin's background helps out a bunch. He was a dad in seminary when his young child got very ill. He prayed for his child to be healed, but she passed away. This made him quiet angry and he turned his heart away from God and began to fight against everything he'd ever known. There are so many truths in the Bible to be discovered, but unfortunately, most people can't see the heart behind it rather than being upset because it holds folks accountable for actions and even thoughts. I do not claim to be perfect in anyway, but I can claim that the Holy Spirit changes me daily to be more loving, understanding, and wise.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Ok, there is so much to respond to that is blatantly incorrect that I don't know where to start.

Evolution is a scientific theory, which does not mean the same thing as a layman's use of the word theory. It is proven, tested and demonstrable to anyone wanting to see evidence of it. There is, however, no evidence for creation. None. It cannot be tested. It cannot be proven. It is not science, nor is it a theory. It's an unprovable hypothesis, and belongs in public schools no more than any other creation myth from any other religion, let alone a science class. It is not science in any sense.

Comparing homosexuality and gay marriage to beastiality is a ridiculous comparison in my opinion, and I simply don't believe your anecdote about new Zealand. Gay marriage is legal in many parts of the United States and recognized federally, and I see no evidence of a mass increase in beastiality. Sorry. This slippery slope argument is the same one that argued against interracial marriage, and was also proven false then.

This nation was never a Christian nation, nor was it ever meant to be. Many of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians, and they had incredibly harsh things to say about Christianity over all. "In God we trust" was put on our money in the 1940s-50s out of fear of communism, and because the majority of the people were Christians. Our government protects the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion do that no one religious ideology can dictate it's belief system to others. Without the freedom from religion, it is impossible to have freedom of religion.

In closing, no one's beliefs exist in a vacuum. They impact other people. Therefore the actions and beliefs of Christians directly affect me as an atheist in this country. I do not have to move. I hedge the same right to be heard and to vote as anyone else, and as such we are seeing a dramatic shift away from dogmatism and religion towards secularism, atheism and humanism, and our country is better off for it.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

Ohhh this incites anger in me. For one this is NOT an atheist forum and it is NOT a Christian one either. It is both and all and everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe......that is all that I am going to say right now.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Oh, and as a former Bible college student in theology and a missionary, I have looked at both sides. You're incorrect about darwin, he was never angry at god, and the theory of evolution is a theory AND a fact, much like the germ theory of disease, heliocenrism etc.

I looked up the author you mentioned, and can find no biography whatsoever listing his credentials. Can you provide a link to his scientific, peer reviewed work?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I didn't realize a moral-less dictatorship was an improvement, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


Mel Carriere profile image

Mel Carriere 2 years ago from San Diego California

While I certainly respect for people to be atheists, atheism is obviously just another belief system. They even have their own meetings in which they profess their fervent belief in the non God, and this certainly sounds a lot like church to me. I'm certainly not a fanatical inquisitor who will deprive them of their right to do this, but they should lighten up and let people believe what they want to and not try to drag down every cross from a hillside. In fairness there are Christian groups who practice the same kind of tactics and they are both wrong. Great hub!


jeremycolombo profile image

jeremycolombo 2 years ago

Really good article! The title got my attention. It is interesting that people will fight so hard to convince others that their view is right. If you have faith and assurance, you only have to share. No pushing and protesting necessary. Thank you for putting your thoughts together and sharing.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

I think we are in danger of developing a bland "McCulture" by trying to ban all religion. After all religion has been responsible for all art and cutlure for tens of thousands of years.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Who said anything about a moral less dictatorship? I said nothing about that. It's a straw man due to the fact that you don't seem able to address the points.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

It seems pointless to try to address anything with someone who will just demand that I am wrong, they are right, and that "I think my moralitly is superior to others" (quoting your words to me from your blog comment about my comment). Tis a shame that one must be wrong or right, instead of just stating their respectful opinion, and accepting that someone else has one as well. I choose not to engage in pointlessness. I've stated my opinion. You've stated your's. I am not going to be sucked into a game that will go nowhere. I guess that means you win! Yay! Thank you for your interests in my articles. Please keep enjoying them.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

I never demanded that I was right. You took offense to the fact that I punted out that it is only in Western cultures that nudity is frowned upon, and that in saying your view of nudity was correct, it seemed that you marginalized the cultural views that differ, and in that way it appeared that you were claiming your way was superior. I'm not sure why you would take offense to a simple observation instead of just showing that it was incorrect, resorting instead to accusing me of being angry at you because of your religious beliefs which is not the least bit true. I'm pointing or the fallacies because a conversation based on one fallacy after another is not a conversation. Tie free to not continue if you'd like, but I thought you said that you were up for an intelligent discussion, which is all that I'm trying to do. This is part of the overall problem between conversations between atheists and Christians. Assumptions, accusations and then running away from the conversation with excuses. It's a pity.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I'm sorry you have to see it that way.

Your quotes:

"Ok, there is so much to respond to that is blatantly incorrect that I don't know where to start. Evolution is a scientific theory, which does not mean the same thing as a layman's use of the word theory. It is proven, tested and demonstrable to anyone wanting to see evidence of it. There is, however, no evidence for creation. None. It cannot be tested. It cannot be proven. It is not science, nor is it a theory. It's an unprovable hypothesis, and belongs in public schools no more than any other creation myth from any other religion, let alone a science class. It is not science in any sense."

-Again... Your Opinion, just because you have other people (lab coats or not) with the same opinion... doesn't make it fact. Read the book I told you about, and watch as the scientist takes secular scientific "facts" as you claim them to be, and prove the Bible's truth. How can you tell me its not provable, if you haven't even read it? (that was rhetorical)

"You're incorrect about darwin, he was never angry at god, and the theory of evolution is a theory AND a fact, much like the germ theory of disease, heliocenrism etc."

-I must've completely misunderstood "You're incorrect" here. I didn't realize it meant 'okay, our opinions are different'. My mistake. I shouldn't have taken that as YOU'RE INCORRECT.

"It's a straw man due to the fact that you don't seem able to address the points."

-Are you seriously calling me ignorant here? (again, rhetorical)

"You do realize, don't you, that Western culture is rare in its abject revulsion to nudity, right? That indigenous people see nothing wrong with the human body at all, don't shelter or stigmatize their children against sex childbirth, etc, and have a lower crime rate than we do, right? I understand that you think you're morality is superior to others, but it's an opinion."

-I sincerely apologize. I didn't realize you were a long distance psyhcic that could read my mind and tell me what I'm thinking. I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to enlighten me or spread your knowledge with kindness, or are you just interested in talking down to me. Because most people would find this as you being condecending, like I am not educated or I have some sort of learning disability. Your "simple observations" could be handled in a much better fashion. Like my Christian mother always said, "It's not what you say... it's how you say it." I've gained a better understanding of you now that I have read your profile. I'm glad that you are understanding of your provoking and drama-causing ways, but, as a therapist, my opinion would be that it is not something to be proud of, rather, it is something that you should want to work on improving about yourself. But then again, if you did that, the drama would start to subside. Something to think about.

"If you read the bible to your kids, there is murder, a prescription for causing a miscarriage, rape, bloodshed, slavery, the death penalty for children, etc. Are you not seeing the hypocrisy here?"

-Are you seriously calling me a hypocrite because I've had enough of a company that, in my opinion, continues to romanticize evil, so I have done away with it in my household? The bible explains things that I make my children aware of, including all evils that you have mentioned, in a very real way. (I know where you were trying to go with a few of your references, but the misquoting and taking out of context is really getting out-dated.) The bible doesn't dress up evil, and make it seem beautiful, cute, or enchanting so that little children would want to grab a magic wand and start taking dark power into their own hands and casting spells. I believe magic, witchcraft, sorcery, demons/ghosts, etc. are very real, and I will not teach my children believe that they are cute, beautiful, or enchanting.

"...but I thought you said that you were up for an intelligent discussion, which is all that I'm trying to do. This is part of the overall problem between conversations between atheists and Christians."

If your intentions were truly to have intelligent discussion, you words would be presented lovingly, not condecendinly. And the overall problem between Christians and atheists is actually the fact that they can't say "its my opinion" and move forward. One or the other always has to claim their belief as fact (as you have done), and must call the other ignorant (thank you for the straw man comment).

"It is because you seem to feel entitled to have things your way, and no one else's beliefs or opinions should be duly considered."

In every one of my comments, I have simpley stated, and I quote, "In my opinion." I've not demanded that anything be my way... outside of my own home. Inside my home, things will be as my husband and I see fit throught the Holy Spirit. On these comments, all I have done is respectfully address your words. The only reason I even commented on your disney article was solely to show some interest in you, since you showed interest in my work. I couldn't find any article of yours that I could bare to respectfully bite my tough on, so I picked the least disagreeable one, and shared my heart with you on the comment. It was not in anyway directed at you personally. I expressed saddness toward a company that I had once loved. That is not and should not be considered "feeling entitled to have things my own way."

"Assumptions, accusations and then running away from the conversation with excuses. It's a pity."

Ma'am, only the mature know when the proper time to walk away is, and I must say that God is using you to test and strengthen my Christ-like patience. I'm sorry you file it away as an excuse. I look at it as a sign of respect to you, so I do not resort to the same condecending tactics and name calling as you have done. Oh those Christians!

"I debate, argue and intentionally spark discussions over controversial and often heated topics..." -JMcFARLAND

If your intention here is to intentionally set a fire, be condecending, or just cause drama... please refrain from continuing further on any of my articles. If you would like to change direction and move forward in kindness & respect, please feel free to keep investing time into my work, but leave the arrogance and condecension behind. Thank you ma'am.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

No, evolution is not an opinion. The fact that it was proven by scientists does not make it THEIR opinion. Evolution is a scientific theory, and it is also a fact. It has provable, testable and repeatable evidence. Anyone can see it. Anyone can observe it. It is a fact. Scientific theories are not guesses, nor are they opinions. It is your OPINION, in contrast, that evolution is wrong, and I have yet to see any evidence on your part refuting it.

I looked up the book that you referenced. He is not a scientist. He is a Biblical scholar with a degree in engineering. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make him a scientist. It makes him a biblical scholar and an engineer – and even a tiny bit of research as to his claims and the actual evidence of science refutes them. Yet you still hold them up as true. How long have you spent actually researching them, or do you just take this non-scientist’s biblical scholar’s word for it? Incidentally, that is NOT what I do with science. I have studied it. I have observed it. I have looked at the evidence for myself. Have you?

I’m sorry, I also don’t think you understand what an opinion is. Do you think that the earth revolves around the sun, or do you think that the sun revolves around earth? If you believe the later, you do not accept the scientific fact, which is an opinion you’re welcome to have – but it’s still wrong. Do you think disease is caused by germs? Then you accept the scientific theory of germ theory. Is it an opinion, or a fact? It doesn’t seem by your posts that you know a great deal about science or how it works. THAT is my opinion, and you’re more than welcome to prove me wrong, in which case my opinion will change.

Saying that you’re using a straw man argument does not equate to calling you ignorant. A straw man is a logical fallacy in which case one person presents an argument that their opponent never actually SAID and then refutes that argument instead of addressing what the other person actually said. It has nothing to do with being ignorant. The argument from ignorance also doesn’t mean that someone is calling you ignorant. I simple search of logical fallacies will demonstrate every single one of these points for you.

Ad Hominem – another logical fallacy that attacks the person instead of the argument, for example: “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were a long distance psychic”.

I never called you a hypocrite. I think that hypocrisy exists if someone protects their children from a cartoon buttocks while simultaneously reading to them from a book that describes rape, genocide, mutilation, murder, execution, etc. Pointing out hypocrisy is not the same as calling someone a hypocrite.

I am not trying to be condescending here; you seem to be projecting it onto me. I cannot control how you take my words, but since you don’t know me I don’t think you’re in a position to tell me what my intentions ARE or how I’m feeling about them. Unless, of course, YOU are a long-distance psychic that knows what I’M thinking. I’m attempting to have an intelligent conversation, and you seem to be taking it personally. I’m sorry for that, truly, but I can’t help how you choose to take it. You’re more than welcome to not allow my comments if you choose, which would appear dishonest to me – or you can actually address what I’m actually saying and stop reading my tone or intent into them unnecessarily. I’m not angry. I’m not upset. I’m not frustrated, and I’ve said everything with a smile on my face. I do apologize that you’ve taken them personally.


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

But I believe in Unicorns and I am working to have the laws changed to make sure everyone grovels to them in school every morning and anyone who doesn't believe in them is considered scum.

No wonder Christians cause so many conflicts. Disgusting. :(


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Cool! That's what's makes this a free country.


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

As long as you believe in Unicorns LOL


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

My mistake. Engineer who works in the field science. Either way, when you read the facts stated in the book, it hard to argue.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I don't actually believe either way. Original transcripts of the bible actually use the term unicorn to describe either a related creature or a mythical one. As for the creature we know them to be these days, who really knows.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I'm glad to hear that there may have been a misunderstanding of intentions.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Why don't you tell me one of the scientific facts he brings forward in the books, then, and we can discuss it. Are you convinced that they're true because you've investigated then for yourself, or are you just convinced because of the way he presents them?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I actually have no interest in scientific debates, but you can get a copy of the book relatively cheap and come to your own conclusions. One thing to remember about science is, it has a reputation for "proving" something, then changing it a few decades later. Way too faulty for me.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

But science, unlike religion, learns and grows according to new information and understanding. That's why it works. If it didn't, we would still think that the earth was flat, would we not?

I'm a little confused though. You held this book up as proof that the Bible is scientific, but then you day you don't like science because it can't be proven and you're not interested in discussing it. Which is it? If you think science can show the reliability of Scripture, then you accept scientific process, but then you say it can't be trusted. Why bring up that book at all then? If you haven't read it, how can you say it's convincing enough to recommend it to an atheist?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Good thing the Word of God never changes and has claimed the earth to be a sphere thousands of years ago. I just love how science is starting to catch up to the bible. :-) Makes me tingle inside to see how powerful my Lord is.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

But it does change, and we have proof that it changes. The Bible you have is a translation of a translation of a copy of a copy. Things were added. Things were subtracted. This is not debated in biblical scholarship. At all. The Bible also says the earth has corners and that you can see all of it from the top of a really high mountain in Judea. It says bats are birds. It says that breeding cattle in front of striped posts makes the animals striped. We know these things aren't true.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Only if misinterpreted. GOoD thing we have the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom that surpasses all human understanding.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

If you say so. You're putting a whole lot of faith in the Bible, not in God. How many languages have you read it in? How deeply have you studied it? Have you ever studied textual criticism? The field for biblical studies by (mostly Christian) scholars that understand we have no originals and in many cars cannot claim to know what the originals said? That we don't even know who wrote them? Have you studied the history of the early church at all?


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle: Homosexuality does not "medically" lead to diseases. Pathogens cause disesess.

The word "theory" in science does not mean guess or unfounded claim.

And, your suggestion that there is ANY connection between same-sex marriage and beastality is, to be honest, disgusting and totally wrong.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Everyone has the right to believe what they wish.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Yes, but believing something (especially defiantly of actual facts) does not make those beliefs accurate. People have the right to be wrong, but I'm hopeful that much of the world will embrace knowledge rather than ignorance.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

If faith in the Creator Lord is ignorance, then consider me the most ignorant person in the entire existence of the planet second only to Jesus of Nazareth.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I know atheists like to challenge those who believe in a creator or god of any kind to prove themselves. "Prove God is real." But my question to atheists is... Can you PROVE to me that God, or any god, does not exist?


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

We don't have to prove any gods don't exist, and asking anyone to do so is incredibly silly. Do you have to prove that Allah doesn't exist to justify your atheism in regards to Islam? Can you prove unicorns don't exist, Michelle?

In debates, the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the person making the positive claim. You are asserting that a god exists. Therefore you are making the positive claim. I do not say that no gods exist. I lack a belief in a god because no gods have been proven. The burden of proof is on you. This is debate 101 here. Like it or not, that's how it works. If a prosecutor accuses someone of a crime, they have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

When you can explain why you don't accept any of the other, competing god claims (which makes you an atheist in regards to those claims) you will understand why I do not accept yours. If you can prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist, I will look at your methods and go from there.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

To each their own. I know my God exists because He talks to me and has answered me, has saved my life multiple times, has changed my life, etc. Some may call it coincidence if they wish, but... I don't believe in coincidence. I don't have to prove there is a Devine Creator because He has done it Himself through creation. I very well could jump on board with the whole Big Bang theory, easily. And my only response to man's evolving understanding of knowledge is... DANG GOD IS AWESOME!


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

You can keep saying that, but it still doesn't make it true. Many other believers from many other religions say the same thing, but credit a different god. Since none of you can actually demonstrate it as actually true, there is really no reason for me to believe you or any of them. After all, you don't believe them, do you? Do you not find it the least bit ironic that you, in a hugely Christian culture think the christian god is real, while those in a predominantly Muslim country believe that Allah is the one true god? How do you reasonably decide who's right, or do you just assume that you are because that's what makes you feel comfortable?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I do believe in science. God is the ultimate scientist! Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". Folks can give me scientific research all day long, but I can only think "ah, so that's how God did that." I can't deny that my children exist, because I see them, hear them, and they talk to me. I have felt my God, seen my Lord, and hear Him as well. I can't just deny Who I know.


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Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I think there may be a misunderstanding here. I am not trying to change your mind about whether God exists or not. That's your choice. And you are not going to change my mind or sway me in the least. I am not going to deny the existence of someone I know. I can't, and I would be burned alive before doing so. So I feel this discussion really has no point.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

I'm not sure you understand. You can't prove the god of the Bible by using the Bible to do it. It's a circular argument. It's like trying to prove spiderman exists by using the comic books. Furthermore, as I've read it in the original languages and still do to this day, I think I'm probably equally familiar if not more so. I'm here to have a conversation, not change your mind. It's unlikely you can change mine without a basic understanding of debate and logic, which doesn't matter since you don't want to, and you're avoiding the majority of my questions. If you think discussions are pointless, why write controversial things that prompt them?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I may have been raised in a religious country, but I did not know God. I've really only known God for 2 1/2 years. I knew about Him in the past. I was taken to many different types of churches, and even searches different religions as an adult. But it was in the quiet of my vehicle one evening that God revealed Himself to me, and I completely submitted to Him right then and there. I have, without the help of a church or book, learned from my God about who He is and what His original intentions for this life was, and how I'm supposed to live this life He's given me. It was and still is 100% supernatural wisdom. And since He revealed Himself to me and I changed my thoughts and actions... man, my life has become like a fantasy. I had never even known what real love or joy was before this. If I'm wrong... so be it. I'd rather be wrong and live this life of complete joy and understanding, then to go back to any other lifestyle. If that's ignorance, then it is what it is. I'd rather love this life of love and find out I was wrong when I physically die, then to live a life of doing whatever without God and find out I was wrong when I die.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Sure. Whatever you say.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I actually did not write anything for a debate. I did however write what I thought, and allowed others to answer or comment. That is why I have allowed comments to my article. I'm in no way a debate major. I'm a disciple of Jesus, a wife, a mother, a therapist, and a hard worker... not a master debater. I can only share my wisdom, experience, and testimony. If you'd like a debate, you'll have to search elsewhere. I don't need to give you an answer to questions that you've askes because you will tell me I'm wrong anyway. I've debated atheists in the past, and I feel it goes nowhere. That is circular and completely pointless. I don't have to prove the existence of my God... to anyone. He is who He is, and that's His job. It's my job as a disciple to share Him with others. That's it. I know Him, and I don't need a book (bible) to help me know Him more or to prove His existence. Just as I do not need a document from the government to tell me that my husband is actually my husband. I actually refuse to have any sort of "legal marriage" or documentation between the government, my husband, and myself because it is not for the government to tell me if I can or who I can enter into a covenant relationship with. Same goes for homosexuals. You don't need a government to tell you whether or not you can be in a committed relationship with someone. It's not their business or concern. My opinion. I don't need this corrupt government's tax breaks or approval, nor do I want it. I don't need their authority to justify what I already know. In fact, I don't believe it is any government's right to be in my marriage at all. If it backfires on me, then so be it. I don't need or want this government's protection from my husband. God's got this for me. But I do know who my husband is without physical proof from anyone. Just as I know who my Dad and Lord is. So, if you are under the impression that I'd like to debate this, I'm not. You're welcome to comment on my article all you wish though. :-)


Wild Bill 2 years ago

JM,

In your first response (you guys covered a lot of ground in 2 days!) you said that Christians are fighting to repress homosexual rights and dictate other laws in the government arena and schools, but you failed to mention that Christians are also the ones fighting to give ALL people rights. As you yourself said " and I live in a country where the overwhelming majority of people are religious.". You are correct that this country is overwhelmingly religious, so since this is the case, the majority of Christians are actually on your side with most issues, otherwise, nothing would get done. The fact that you say there needs to be more of an "atheist voice" is laughable because it is not the atheists that are winning the issues since you guys are about 1% to 2% of this country. I suggest instead of going on one of your "kick a christian" rants, you should thank us instead because we are the ones fighting and winning your battles.


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

So this was not a back handed attack on atheism? Interesting. DOesn't your Daddy burn liars for eternity?


Wild Bill 2 years ago

No, this is a defense of the religious. I thought that was obvious, but I apparently not.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Not that I am in the habit of attacking anyone, but if I were, I would not do it backhandedly. Everyone would see it coming.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Some others had made some comments this morning, but I'm not sure what happened to them. They were, of course rudely provoking and name calling, but I'd hate to have others think I'm blocking their voice. Twas not my intention. I don't see how to find them either.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

No, actually my Daddy doesn't burn liars in hell for eternity. It's a common misconception, one mostly brought on my misunderstand of concept and some "Christians" who scream at people on the streets. My Daddy desires for ALL people to choose GoOD over evil, because GoOD is where God lives and only GoOD can live with Him. A prideful angel decided to rebel against GoOD, and live apart from God. That was his choice. He also gathered a group of other angels who followed him in moving on out of God's home. Again, that was their choice. Its the classic tale of GoOD vs evil. Where do you think the concept originated from? Hmmm. Anyway, since God has created all that there is and these angels wanted to leave, God had to create a place eternally separate from Him for the prideful angel and his followers. This is what we hear called "hell, hades, lake of fire, etc." The truth is, that place was never intended for humans EVER. It breaks God's heart that people that He created would ever chose to follow such a menace causing angel. It breaks His heart that anyone would be fooled, by such a demon, into following him and his ways. It breaks God's heart because He knows that those who CHOOSE to follow this prideful angel into living separately and apart from God for eternity after this physical body dies. All Heaven and hell basically comes down to is... you either want to live with God or apart from Him. God is the very definition of GoOD, so if you choose to live apart from Him... then you are choosing to live in the complete absence of any GoOD for eternity. That is what hell is. The absolute absence of GoOD. What do you have left when you subract ALL GoOD? PURE EVIL. The bible does use terms like lake of fire, hot, pain, torment, etc. I do not know if God is using literal terms or if He is using human metaphorical terminology to describe how it would be to live in the complete absence of His GoODness. So, the answer is NO, my Dad does not burn liars or anyone in hell for eternity. People choose it for themselves. I, personally, choose to acknowledge that I am not perfect. And because of my imperfection, I was separated from God. Thankfully, He came down here in a human form, Jesus of Nazareth, to show us how He originally intended for us to live and to be a great example of love for us. Then He even went as far as paying for my short-comings! I didn't even have to do anything for Him to do that for me. Man, I'm so glad He loved me before I even knew how to love Him. The greatest thing about my God over any other gods... mine came back to life!!! All the others died, and stayed in the ground. How awesome! I know I will get a bunch of feedback asking for proof. Please... do some of your own research looking for historical records and even books by MANY atheists scientists, lawyers, etc. who set out to prove the resurrection of Jesus didn't happen. Psst: They became believers after not being able to deny all the proof they found FOR the resurrection. Thank you for the great question Religious Atheist!!!!!


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Ah - so you have changed the words of the bible now. Excellent - you must be a true Christian. People choose it for themselves huh? Your Super Daddy just throws them in like they asked LOL Guess you just chose it. ;)

Odd that you continue to lie about this proof stuff - save me a seat by the fore.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

One of us must be super confused, but I know where my spirit is... Do you?


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Sorry you don't understand. Change the words again - maybe that will help. Save me a seat by the fire. ;)


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I'm sorry, but I won't be joining you there. I truly hope you won't choose to go there either. I'm not sure you realize what the absence of all GoOD will really be like. It's nothing that we can humanly fathom. But you see, I won't be going to any place like that because I've asked my Lord to forgive me of my short comings... for all the intentional and unintentional ones. My God is faithful to forgive and love as if we were always perfect. All you have to do is ask, and really mean it in your spirit (aka heart). That's what makes Him such an awesome King! I know it's really hard for anyone to jump on board with such a simple faith. Most people just need or prefer complicated, but... my God is just complexly simple like that!


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Odd - I thought that telling lies was choosing to go there. At least - that is what you told me. Nothing that we can humanly fathom huh? LOL


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I am sorry you misunderstood. Just because you lie, doesn't mean you are choosing eternity apart from God. That is what His forgiveness is all about. But it is your choice whether or not you want His forgiveness. If you choose not to accept it, then you are choosing eternity separated from Him and all GoODness. I hope I have cleared that up for you.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I didn't realize I said something funny. I also didn't realize human thought they were as arrogant to believe that they know everything and can fathom everything. That's bold!


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Ah great - God doesn't throw liars in the lake of fire any more. Yes - everything you have said is pretty funny. Thanks. LOL


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle:

Some life lessons (which you will probably not publish in this forum, because you have censored other comments that I have posted but not publishing/approving them):

You and your religion DO NOT corner the market on truth. Something that you and your pastor or your church do not agree with is not, therefore, a lie.

You and your god are NOT the alpha and omega of truth.

There is NO connection, despite your suggestions, between homosexuality and sexually deviant conduct such as bestiality or pedophilia.

Civil marriage is NOT about securing marital fidelity. Civil marriage is about protecting the interests of children as well as the interests of surviving partners. Such interests: child support, child custody, inheritance of one's home and property (such as bank accounts and retirement and death benefits)---without tax penalties and without others (such as a partners legal relatives---parents, siblings, children) claiming and taking the property from the surviving partner.

Other interests: The right to make decisions about someone's health care---and assorted life and death decisions.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Actually I did not censor. Please read an above comment from yesterday morning. I explained what happened. Feel free to repost your crude remarks. Anyone is allowed to make themselve look like whatever they'd like on my atricle comments.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Everyone has a right to their own point of view. That's what makes this America. I'm sorry you take such offense to my point of view, but I'm not going to change just because someone else's point of view if different. Kind of silly to do so. If we all were made to think the same way on all issues, kind of would make it not longer a free country. Hmmm. Also, I nor my children need the government's protection in my marriage. I'm not sayin others can't do it their way, but I won't. My past legal battle with divorce left me the sole parent with three children, and no child support or spousal support. I do not have faith that this government is capable of protecting me from anything. But that doesn't mean I will be holding a screaming protest against the government in our marriages. It's my belief, not something I'm going to shove down everyone else's thoat. I believing in sharing... not shoving. :-) Thank you for your comment.


jeremycolombo profile image

jeremycolombo 2 years ago

Everyone is certainly free to express their opinions, but I agree no one opinion can be forced on others. Opinions may be shared and expressed. I can say that I am highly unlikely to accept someone else's view if they are pushing it on me. I am a Christian and I look for opportunities to share with others seeing where they stand.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle:

I think as people who write in a public forum we need to understand that what we write in public forums has the power to affect others; to affect others in ways, for example, that affect their decisions.

While you claim you are just expressing your opinions, it is not that simple. People are reading your words. People are assuming that because you are published here that you are, at some level, a voice of authority.

You need to think a bit more carefully about what you are saying and how you are saying it, and more importantly, you need to think about the very real impact of every word that you write and publish. Every word.

You need to accept that if you---as a person who claims connectivity to God, for example, suggests that civil marriage is meaningless and that what matters is some spiritual connection between you and a partner, then you have the power to discourage someone else from engaging in civil marriage.

Writing in public forums is a tremendous responsibility---particularly if you decide to write about morals and values; about how to live one's life; about decisions and choices; about what is right or wrong; what is acceptable or not acceptable.

And you cannot avoid that responsibility simply by claiming you are just expressing your opinions.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I do. Thank you. I stand behind my words, and they are intended to share and to be thought provoking. My intentions have been fulfilled.


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Well, I am certainly reminded of why I rejected this particular irrational belief system. Thanks for the validation Michelle. See you in the lake. ;)


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

You won't see me. You're welcome for whatever you needed to hear. Have a GoOD one! Later!


Righteous Atheist profile image

Righteous Atheist 2 years ago

Of course I won't see you there. LOL


Patty 2 years ago

The one question I can't seem to get an answer to from atheist is: How does finding some scientific discoveries have anything to do with there not being a Creator? Let's say the big bang is fact... Who created the atoms/matter that exploded? Scientific findings do not disprove God. They just help us understand how God works.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

It is not a "creator" which is disputed, but the mythology of the Bible in terms of the formation and age (among many, many other things) of the earth and the universe.

That said, there is no proof of the existence of any god, and therefore, scientific evidence cannot be used to understand how a mythical god works or doesn't work.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I believe God gave us thousands possibly millions of years worth of "creation/formation" details in about 2 chapters, and in such a way that our simple minds could understand. The actual 3 translations of the term "day" in the original translation of Genesis means: 1) 24 hour period; 2) from sun up to sun down; and 3) a specific period of time. For anyone to debate the exact age of the Earth is silly, because NONE of us were there. The whole point God conveys in the books compiling the bible is: WHO He is, WHY we need to have a relationship with Him, and HOW to have a relationship with Him. Everything else is just semantics.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

We cannot know or debate the age of the earth because none of us where there and anything/everything else is "just semantics"...really?

So, you discredit ALL sciences related to the natural history of the earth and universe: Geology, geophysics, cosmology, astronomy, etc.?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Absolutely not. When I said "everything else", I was speaking of how different people understand certain translations of Genesis, Job, etc. Science is just as real as you and I. Quite often scientists find faults in what were once believed to be facts, but science is still science. And it never disproves the existence of the God of the bible. It may disprove a certain interpretation of the bible, but it never disproves the truth of the bible.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

The truth is, I know my God is real not because a book tells me so. I know He is real because I KNOW Him, and He speaks to me. I can't say I don't believe in someone I KNOW. It would be a blatant and intentional lie. All the "proofs" that some require to believe in Him don't apply to me, because He has already proven Himself to me. You see, I don't know all the science and genetics involved in plant reproduction, growth, and vegetation, but I do know it's real because I have a garden and I am watching my plants grow and produce vegetables and they are tasty. I don't need someone to explain to me how my cucumbers sprouted, where they got their nutrients, how they became fertilized, and what's making them produce in order to believe that it is a real cucumber in my hand. Some things just are. It's not my place to make other people believe whether or not He really exists. It's only my place to share who He is and what He's done for me in my life. I don't need to understand HOW God did it all or the science of it in order to know who He is. All that is secondary to me; it's like finding a bonus treasure of awesomeness when I hear scientist explain how God created things. True knowledge comes through wisom, and the Lord is the absolue beginning of wisom. I know some don't believe that, but they don't have to either. And I definitely won't force anyone to do so.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Science disproves much of the Bible---including its impossible creation myth which maintains that a god "created" the earth and everything on it---including one man and one women, in 6 days. Science is not interested in gods or myths or legends and fantasies.

That said, what "truths" are in your Bible that you believe that science has not soundly debunked?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

We'll just see, won't we. Science is always changing and correcting itself. I am not here for a prove the bible debate. I've explained this multiple times. You can feel free to check out the book mentioned near the end of the article. It will give you all the answers that you are asking me for.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Have you even read the book mentioned near the end of the article? Yet you can't give one single example? Not to mention it was not written by a scientist, it hasn't been peer reviewed, and there are numerous sites debunking the supposed "science claims" in the bible. Haven't looked at those, have you?

Here's the thing - even in the very unlikely chance that something scientific IS in the bible (which I highly doubt, having read it several times from cover to cover in many languages) it doesn't make the whole book true. I hear this argument all the time. "well, the bible mentions this city, and archeologists have uncovered this city, therefore the bible is true". If that argument is logical, then the fact that New York City exists proves that spiderman is true. It's not a logical argument. At all. And it seems to be the only kind of argument that you have, aside from personal experiences that cannot be proven or demonstrated.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I can name many! But like I'm getting tired of explaining: I have nothing to prove to anyone. Read it for yourself. Such successful scholars should be able to afford a book for less the $10. And If you don't agree with it, feel free to use it as an example to year Christians' faith apart.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

I have no desire to tear anyone's faith apart, thank you. The bible tells christians to always be prepared to give a logical defense (a justification) for the hope that they have. You are unwilling to do so. And you still haven't even confirmed that you've actually READ the book from a non-scientist that you're actively promoting, which leads me to believe that you haven't, in fact, read it. Which makes it impossible to have a conversation about it - and you're not interested in scientific evidence anyway (so why you'd promote a christian "science" book is beyond me, since science is so unimportant anyway). Can you make up your mind, possibly?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I have read the book and met the SCIENTIFIC ENGINEER who wrote it AND attended a conference with closing debate with him as the guest speaker. My purpose is because I do not wish to waste my time or energy dealing with foolish folks who will always have an insult and demand they are right. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Please stop trying to "trap me" or "put your righteousness" in my face or whatever it is you're attempting. You are misquoting your bible. It says to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you. I have done so . My communication with you has now ended. May the Holy Spirit touch your heart.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

"To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Psalm 14:1


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Everyone - Open comments have now been closed. You can feel free to leave a comment, but it will be reviewed and decided whether or not it will appear on my article's page. If you do not like this, write your own article. That's the whole point of this site. I will not tolerate bullying, cheap shots, badgering, or hate speech. Thank you.

JMcFarland - I'm afraid you must have me mistaken with someone else. That's the first time I've quoted that verse to anyone. I know it's convicting. That is the point of the Holy Spirit, to convict us to do GoOD. Also, atheist means that one does not believe in ANY deity, so if you do... then you're not an atheist. And YES, anyone acting apart from the Holy Spirit does no GoOD. Without God, there is no root of any moral system. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes. You may do good by a humanly standard, but that is far from real GoODness. If you act apart from God, how can you do GoOD. GoOD is being God-like.

"Righteous" Atheist - You are confusing Christ followers with the religion of Catholicism. It was the Roman Empire who went around telling Christians to convert to Catholicism, and if they refused... they were killed. Anyone who goes on a murder spree... is not a true Christ follower. I knew there were people out there who purposely follow Satan, and desire to rule in Hell, but I am truly sad to hear that you are one of them.

I do pray that the Holy Spirit works in both of your lives before time is over.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle: In what history book did you read the nonsensical claim that the Roman Empire forced Christians to become Catholics? Do you have any idea of how, in fact and in history, Christianity came to the Roman world?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I do, in fact I was born Catholic, and have a very large Catholic family. It's very sad for me to see my loved ones drawn in and held prisoner by religious traditions which are almost all pagan. The beginning of the Roman Catholic Church was nothing more than just changing some names of the pagan statues and the names of the holidays. It's sad, but most people misunderstand the true, absolute love of God. It's not all that complicated, but most find it to easy to be considered acceptable. Unfortunately, the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades have been thought to be played out by "righteous Christians", but it was actually evil trying to make a bad name of Christ. And it seems as if evil is having its way. No true Christ follower goes on murder sprees.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle: Your response does not answer my question. Where did you find your "information" that the Roman Empire---or its late remnants, forced people into Catholicism?

Telling me that you were once a Roman Catholic is not an answer. Suggesting that the Catholic Church is little more than a reconstitution of paganism is not an answer. Noting that the Inquisition and Crusades were contrary to basic Christian values is not an answer.

Answer my specific question: Where did you learn that the Roman Empire forced people into Catholicism and executed those who would not convert to Catholicism?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

JMcFarland - I'm sorry your feelings got hurt. If I were acting like you had no comment, I wouldn't be responding where everyone can see it. I just won't post your arrogance or rudeness any longer. Thank you for choosing to end your comments. I've nicely told you multiple times that we were finished.

Everyone - It seems as if there has been a misunderstanding of my article. I am not here to debate the trueness of God, nor is this an article to prove His existence. Like I've been writing, but no one seems to read it, It's not my job to prove God's existence. He has already done so Himself. It's just my job to share Him. You believe what you wish, and I will believe what I know. This is America... home of the "FREE". Believe what you want. My article was stating SIMPLY that I see no point in atheist forming a group about not believing in something. End Point.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

HISTORY. Research Spanish Inquisition and Crusades. Answers are there.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Righteous Atheist - I've asked you to stop but you will not. I will not post your hate on my site.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Religious Atheist and JMcFarland - You're welcome for stopping any form of smearing, entrapement, and provoking for personal gain. I'm sorry you are upset and do not understand the simple words I've used. It really sucks when people throw double standards in my face, and get mad at me because I get tired of taking the abuse. And you're right, religion does cause too many conflicts. That's why Jesus spoke so harshly about the religious. Please go try to trap someone else. I am finished with your games. If you don't agree... write your own article.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle:

Why is disagreement with you hate? Do you, as Christian, express nothing other than hate when you disagree with someone?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Religious Atheist - I have asked you many times to stop. You have now been reported for abuse.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

mbuggieh - disagreement and hate are two very different things to me. I have not posted a majority of the constant, blatant attacks, and will not in the future either, esp. one person's attempt at trying to get me to be as rude as they are.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle:

Please answer my question as to where you learned that the Roman Empire created the Catholic Church and executed Romans (throughout the Empire) would would not convert to Roman Catholicism.

"History" is not answer. There is nothing in any legitimate historical record or document that supports your contention.

So, again, where did you hear this nonsense?


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

Randy and mbuggieh , I was blocked too and thought what the heck!! I have been blocked many times by many people. All I told her was that all caps would solicit arguments and that got deleted. Haha!


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Excuse me, I am not learning impaired. I have given you the answer you will get from me. You guys need to learn to do your own research. This is one of my reasons for becoming unwilling to go along with people's comments. I don't have to prove anything. My answers will never be good enough for you, so I will not waste my time indulging your need to "prove me wrong", because that is what you are out to do. There is plenty information backing my claim. You are a scienctist... Google it!


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Actually LG - You were not blocked. Read the comment from Sunday morning. It explains. No need for lies. JMcFarland and RA have been the only ones blocked and only today. (Also Randy, but only because he asked me to.) Thank you.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

Like I said too, this is NOT a strictly religious forum nor is it a strictly non religious forum. Everyone has a right to their opinions say and level of learning around here.

Thanks for not blocking that or me for that matter. There are many more people around here that like to push their religion and degradation around Hubpages as it is.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I don't push religion. I am anti religion, if anything. And anyone may post any type of article they'd like.


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

I didn't say you push religion.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I realize that. I just don't want to be misunderstood as a religious person. I feel there is a huge difference between relationship and religion.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Michelle,

You are learning the tricks of the trade of our non-believing friends.

JM thinks she wins arguments by asking if you have a PhD, because if you don't, you should not argue with her. She actually says this so much she should put it on a t-shirt and wear it around! lol I think she went to all of the trouble of getting her doctorate in religion so she can debunk the oppression of her youth.

RA has no intelligent ideas of his own so his only responses are "So is this why your religion causes so much hate!" or "I'll see you by the fire!".


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Wild Bill, you are right ...and this is why I began deleting instead of arguing. Attempting to prove yourself with such folk just make you look silly as well, and gets you know where. I'm not going to be provoked into an argument.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

JMcFarland - Write your own article and say all you want. I've allowed you ample voice here. I'm tired of being targeted as a liar, ignorant, unable to answer questions, and the list goes on forever. It's over.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

While you allow insulting comments against me from someone else? How Christ like of you. The blatant Hypocrisy is blinding, and we both know what jesus said about hypocrites.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Michelle,

If I were in your shoes, I would allow those comments to stay on so others can see what is going on.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

J,

When most people have an annoying trait, they are usually the last one to see it because if they could, they wouldn't act that way.

You say you are against those that push their beliefs on to others. You say you are against closed minded people. You say people only cite books/articles that only reaffirm their beliefs and this comes from their biases.

The funny thing is that you are all of these things, yet you don't even realize it and this is why you get blocked so much.

I am Catholic, yet it irritates me when Protestants, who are technicall in the same faith I am, try to push their beliefs onto me.

To most people, you are just as pushy as those Christians that put down others who do not believe as they do. Wake up and see the light. Have a cup of coffee tomorrow morning instead of jumping on your horse to continue this war against religion. Live and let live. You have to realize that other people have different beliefs than you and just because they do, it doesn't mean they are liars or stupid.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Wild Bill, I believe it has gotten to the point that you are right. I wouldn't really need to defend myself (even if it is my article) against the obvious. I guess I can just approve and choice to no longer answer.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Yes. Their true colors come out in times of crisis. They just can't handle it when someone does not believe what they believe. I don't attribute that to a belief or non-belief. I think there are just those people that need the reassurance of having everyone to believe what they believe.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Wild bill, why don't you take it up with me yourself instead of hiding on a hub where my comments are censored? I'm sure you can find my own writings.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Trying to drum up business are we? lol

I am sure that if you respond in a manner fit for civilized society, you wouldn't get censored, so it shouldn't be a problem.

The reality is that you should take the time to do some reflection about what is really important in life instead of trying to bring down others.

I mean, you came, you read, you stated your thoughts, but instead of chalking it up that maybe someone has a different point of view than you, you kept going and going and going. I don't know if it is because you love the argument or you really won't quit until they say you are right and they are wrong.

The best thing she could do is just ignore you, which is what I will also do from now on.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Bill, it has nothing to do with being right or wrong, and I know you can see that. I have been respectful when respect was shown to me. Unlike many believers, I allow comments on my hubs that are directly insulting, and don't feel like I have to protect myself from dissenting opinions by censoring them. I'm here to write and to have conversations. If someone makes a fallacy, I'll point it out, and would expect the same in return. The problem is a lot of people see a criticism of their belief as a personal attack, which it isn't. I don't take things personally. If you're so convinced that you're right and I'm just an angry atheist, why not start a discussion with me yourself? Nothing to do with business - I'd visit your hubs, but you haven't got any. You're a guest user on a writing site that wants to insult perfect strangers but not actually address them. It seems as though you fall under your own category of accusing others of what you yourself are guilty of. No worries for me either way, but if you're not willing to practice what you preach, why preach at all?


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Wait...did you hear that? Nope. Just the wind blowing hard.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

So...Michelle has no answer to my question AND "Wild Bill" thinks we need to capitulate to his and Michelle's uninformed opinions or move on.

Sometimes I wonder, JMcFarland, what toxin affects the mind (or maybe the brain) when one determines to be "Christian"; I wonder how the toxin works to cause one to abandon all reason and logic; I wonder how the toxin affects the psyche so that one comes to idolize (yes idolize) an unknown mythical being inhabiting some equally unknown and mythical place.

And I also wonder how it is that some of us remain immune to the effects of this toxin.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I've answered you multiple times. You just don't like my answer. Unfortunately, one's logic is for open interpretation, and would be discredited by any who do not like what they hear. That I why I chose to excuse myself from y'all's questions. I could answer your immunity question, but that would be way too serious yet ironically hilarious at the same time, but very sad for you. But then again, you would throw it away as illogical... so what's the use in answering? (FYI: that wasn't a real question. I already know the answer.)


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle: You stated that the Roman Empire forced people to convert to Roman Catholicism or face execution. This is simply not historically accurate. There is no documentary evidence to support this contention.

Even a cursory glance at the history of early Christianity and its relationship with the Roman Empire makes clear that the Empire understood Christianity as a problem to be solved; as a challenge to its authority---particularly in colonial outposts.

So, once again, what specific book or person told you that it was the public policy of Imperial Rome to force its citizens to convert to Roman Catholicism or face execution?


no body profile image

no body 2 years ago from Rochester, New York

I want to encourage you Michelle to continue to write. I thoroughly loved the article and your comments.

I would say that several of the scientific facts of Scripture that the Bible contains, written way before anyone knew the truth of themare: A. Stars being countless in the sky

B. the Earth being a ball that hangs on nothing

C. mountains at the bottom of the ocean

D. a system of currents to equal paths in the sea D. the things we see that are visible are made up of things we cannot see

E. The fact that within the basic makeup of substances (atoms) are forces that oppose one another and that those forces are held together by something powerful.

Those are just a few that come to mind. There are many many more. I hope this has encouraged you, Michelle. Keep writing and caring as you do. Voted up and interesting, useful.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Some facts:

Stars are not countless (Cosmologists have estimated the number of stars in our galaxy);

The Earth is not a "ball that hangs on nothing" (Ever heard of gravity?);

Subatomic particles do not oppose each other nor are they held together by "something powerful" (Quantum physics; weak forces).

So, are we now justifying the Bible with claims of its scientific literacy or accuracy?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Thank you Mr. Bob. Yes, there are many, many more. Tons actually found in Job alone. My main reason for suggesting they check out the book I mentioned (which contains things like you have mentioned and SO much more) is because I know it would be refuted very quickly, and then I actually was told that the bible has been rewritten so many times, and changed, etc. I found it was just better to leave it up to someone God has already given that gift to, and having people do their own research. Unfortunantely, most don't want to hear logic or reason unless it comes from a master level PHD with a white coat. The best thing that ever happened to me was, when I was going through a rough time in my life (basically hit rock bottom), my husband had left me and my children, and I had no one to turn to because I had recently moved out of state and my parents had left the country for vacation... Long story short: the only place I had to go to was God and study everything on my own, for myself. That was the best thing that ever happened to me. My entire life changed. The Holy Spirit gave me so much understanding, peace, and security... I can't even explain. If others want to say I'm wrong, that's okay. I just pray they get to experience what I have before it's too late.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mcbuggieh said:"Sometimes I wonder, JMcFarland, what toxin affects the mind (or maybe the brain) when one determines to be "Christian"; I wonder how the toxin works to cause one to abandon all reason and logic; I wonder how the toxin affects the psyche so that one comes to idolize (yes idolize) an unknown mythical being inhabiting some equally unknown and mythical place.

And I also wonder how it is that some of us remain immune to the effects of this toxin."

Yes, yes mcbuggieh, I get it. You are smart and we are not. We are sheeple and you are one of the few humans that sees the world as it is. Got it. Thanks for that update! lol

Like I have never heard an atheist pat him/her self on the back for being smart smart smart. Isn't it your four horsemen who labelled their little group they tried to start the "Brights"? lmao


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

Michelle, there is a HUGE difference between Christian and Churchian.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

yes ma'am. Christian translates to little Christ or Christ-like. Most people in church are not true followers of Christ.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I have to reply, even though not many will understand. The "toxin" is called "just love". What keeps you immune from it is call EVIL.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Glad to hear I've been judged "evil" or at least inoculated with evil...;)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

Oh heck I have been called Satan!


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Wow...I was once called "The Great Satan" but I was quickly replaced by another...;)


Lady Guinevere profile image

Lady Guinevere 2 years ago from West Virginia

LOL ok that told me that my comment was rather short...well I am a short person...LOL


mbuggieh 2 years ago

:)

I hear you.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

You can assume whatever you'd like. Just take into consideration the first three letter is that word.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

Michelle

Congrats for setting them straight! Well done.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Michelle,

Another piece of advice is don't get lured into an argument with JM on her newest Hub because she is only antagonizing you to drum up business (i.e. hits on her Hub). Her and RA take this type of marketing campaign from the Kardashians believing that bad exposure is better than no exposure. And it is best not to pay them for bad behavior.

I also find it funny that CS said JM is the most polite person in the religious topics! lol I don't think it is a coincidence that CS is an agnostic atheist either! lmao.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Everyone is given the free will to have their opinion. All you can do is state your's and move on. God doesn't force Himself on us, but tells us the truth and gives us the free will to accept or reject. That's what's so GoOD about Him.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

The only trouble with your logic Michelle and Wild Bill: You do NOT stop at the "this is my opinion" threshold. You---yes you and people just like you, insist on imposing your mythologoical gods and demons and mythological "biblical" narratives on us all.

You insist the US (and the world) to operate according to your "Christian" ideas and measures; you insist on bringing your gods and myths into the public sphere; you insist on teaching your creation myths into public schools, demand that politicians capitulate to you.

The list goes on.

So, don't bother with the "this is just our opinion" crap, because it is not just your opinion. It is your agenda---an agenda you actively seek to impose on others.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh said: "The only trouble with your logic Michelle and Wild Bill: You do NOT stop at the "this is my opinion" threshold. You---yes you and people just like you, insist on imposing your mythologoical gods and demons and mythological "biblical" narratives on us all."

Did you really just say that? lol You keep coming to Michelle's Hub to tell her she is wrong and we are the ones pushing our beliefs? LMAO, it is so funny how people can justify their own behavior even when they are being hypocrites!

Keep up the good work bug and keep fighting that good fight. Let me know how that works out for ya.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh said:"You insist the US (and the world) to operate according to your "Christian" ideas and measures; you insist on bringing your gods and myths into the public sphere; you insist on teaching your creation myths into public schools, demand that politicians capitulate to you."

I have never once said that my ideals or personal philosophy should be imposed on others. I have no agenda for imposing Christian beliefs in public schools or in the political sector. My children go to a private school that is secular in the sense that it is not associated with a church. Their spiritual education is taken care of at church and at home. My religion is my personal philosophy and I don't preach to anyone, so if you can find an example of where I impose anything on anyone, please feel free to show me.

What you do have to understand is that the US is a country where the electors represent its citizens and the majority of the citizens are Christian. Christianity is a moral code and morality is defined by Arnold, Beauchamp, and Bowie in Ethical Theory and Business (9th edition) as being concerned with social practices defining right and wrong.

What one must understand is that if the majority of people have been raised and live by a certain moral code, then the laws typically reflect that practice. It is only natural and one must take that into consideration when living in a society with others.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

If you don't like it, leave. This country is 83% Christian and we will continue to vote that way. You're more than welcome to move to an atheist majority country any time you'd like.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Michelle:

Leave...really?

So you admit, with your remark that you think is so very clever, that it is not about your personal beliefs or personal opinions, but about a larger political, social, and national agenda.

You are not as clever as you think. You have made my point with your comment "If you don't like it, leave." much better than I could ever have possibly made it.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I admit nothing of the sort. I just get tired of your crap and its really not worth responding to your idiotic remarks, so I made my reply simple. If you don't like our society, go to a place where you're the majority, not minority. But you'd better believe that I will vote my opinion AND beliefs EVERY election!! That's my right and this is a republic where majority rules. That's why I said "if you don't like it, leave."


mbuggieh 2 years ago

The US Constitution is designed to protect not majority rights, but the rights of minorities.

Read the constitution, and James Madison's notes on the Constitution along with "The Federalist Papers". You will find that the constitution was sold to the American people as a framework for a secular government, for a "commercial republic" (their words, not mine), and as the guarantor of minority rights.

As such, the US is not a Christian nation ruled by the will of a Christian majority, but a republic ruled by law.

This is why the First Amendment so importantly respects freedom FROM (no state religion; no majority rules religion---remember Wild Bill the largest single religious group in the US are Roman Catholics) and freedom OF religion (be any religion you want; practice any way you want with no fear of suppression from the majority).

The Supreme Court affirmed the First Amendment just a few moments ago (on 30 June 2014), and despite the fact that I subscribe to no religion, I do applaud them for protecting the rights of a minority---in this case the rights of minority of business owners (who privately hold their businesses and who do not publicly trade shares in their businesses) to be exempted from providing specific health insurance coverage to their employees if such coverage violates their religious beliefs and/or moral conscience.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

And no body is hanging you on the guillotine for being an atheist, so... You're welcome for your minority rights.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

I wonder Michelle, how people like you---who believe America is for them and for those who think just like them, can be born and raised in the United States.

How did you come to actually believe (as you apparently do or at least claim) that all that matters is what the majority wants.

How did you come to actually believe (or claim to believe) that someone should be made to leave this country or should leave simply determined to leave it because he or she disagrees with you and your church and your pastor?

Is there anything more un-American than that?


mbuggieh 2 years ago

"Hanging on a guillotine"?

Fascinating mixed metaphor.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh,

You conveniently forgot minority rights, majority rules. You cannot have one without the other or there is no checks and balances, but do not think that our founding fathers didn't view this experiment based on a utilitarian approach. What is best for the majority is more important and the definition of morality is "society's" definition of right and wrong, society being the majority.

I mean, I don't always like it. There are many things that I think are my given right to do, such as walk around naked (and not in my house). I don't see how this affects anyone and I am only showing the human form dictated by biology. But nevertheless, I don't go around crying about it. I conform to society's morals because that is the agreement we have to live in a society. When it gets to the point that I can't stand it anymore, I will go somewhere that I feel fits me, or in other words "get in where I fit in".

I also see that you conveniently didn't answer my first post this morning! lol I don't blame you because there is no way for you to defend yourself for that one. lmao


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh said:"How did you come to actually believe (as you apparently do or at least claim) that all that matters is what the majority wants."

No one said majority is the only thing that matters, but you did say that minority rights is the only thing that matters, which is wrong.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Whatever.

Enjoy your majoritarian rule while it lasts, but remember that in terms of American political and social history:

Majorities never last. What is considered "moral" yesterday or not today; what is considered "moral" today will not be tomorrow.

And if your question was the one referring to imposition of your particular set of "morals":

My observations tell me that there are few Christians who do not wish to impose what they believe on others. You vote, after all, with your religion as you are told to do from your pastor's pulpits. You work every day to impose your "values" on everyone.

Why do you shy away from it?

Why not proudly admit it?

Why not own your agenda?


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I know you like to manipulate my words. That's your choice. I never said you should be MADE to leave. I said you have the right to. HUGE difference. And no one has every FORCED Christianity on anyone. It's not a law that you have to pray, go to church, or say the pledge. I don't see the issue. I don't like what the country is turning into, therefore, I have the right to leave anytime I'd like. And vice versa. If Muslim becomes the country's "religion", I will continue to vote my opinion and will not pray or worship in that manner, again, my right. No one is taking away your right not to believe in our "mythical god" as you put it. Thank you for your input. Have a nice day.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh said:"Enjoy your majoritarian rule while it lasts, but remember that in terms of American political and social history:

Majorities never last. What is considered "moral" yesterday or not today; what is considered "moral" today will not be tomorrow."

I completely agree with you. This is a fact of life that no one, nowhere can get away from, which is what I have been trying to tell you. Every human today has agreed to conform to the rules of society by living in said society. I never signed a contract agreeing to following these rules that were made up way before I was born, but the fact that I am living in this society says that I agree.

I was once a city planner and I always got a kick out of those old men who ranted and raved about having their "rights" taken away because they were denied a permit to cut a tree or build a shed. If one moves into a neighborhood with covenants or a city with certain ordinances, then one in essence agrees to follow the rules. If not, then move out. It is just that simple. I don't fault anyone for fighting for what they believe in, but the reality is that in most cases, if the majority wills it, then so be it. I accept that reality.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh said: "My observations tell me that there are few Christians who do not wish to impose what they believe on others. You vote, after all, with your religion as you are told to do from your pastor's pulpits. You work every day to impose your "values" on everyone."

The funny thing is that there are many ways to say the same thing (a useful tool in propaganda) just like there is more than one way to skin a cat. The fact is that I never said I vote like my pastor tells me, nor did I say that anyone else did. I never said my vote was to "impose" my will on anyone.

Religion is a personal philosophy and a set of guiding principles on morals. This has a profound effect on a person, just as any personal philosophy does, whether it is from a religion or any other belief. We, as humans, get guidance from our teachers, from books, and from our peers. We aren't just automatically blessed with knowing right from wrong. And we don't always follow to a tee what we were taught. We usually form our own opinions eventually. In other words, people vote for what they feel is right, not to "impose" their will on someone else.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

BTW,

I am very happy for Hobby Lobby that the Supreme Court decided to uphold their religious freedom and not take it away.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I agree. I am surprised, but happy that the court allowed room for moral conscience. I know I have stood behind Hobby Lobby since this started, and will continue to do so. If a company stands for something you strongly believe in, I think it is our duty to support them. Same goes for anyone who believes whatever. Hobby Lobby took a brave stand, and I will shop there because of it.


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

Yet meanwhile, hobby lobby invests in birth control and apron products. Lol http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/h...


JMcFarland profile image

JMcFarland 2 years ago from The US of A, but I'm Open to Suggestions

*abortion products. typo.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

J,

Hobby Lobby is not against birth control, only those they deem abortion type. You didn't know that??? I guess the lol is one you! lol


Jim Bean 2 years ago

Bill,

The article states that they invested in companies that produced abortion products. None the less, this is the "freedom" in religious freedom. The precedence was still set that the government cannot oppress anyone's freedom of religion, which doesn't make it illegal for these companies to invest in whomever they so choose.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

I doubt these companies ONLY make abortion type products. They probably have thousands of products. I don't know, I haven't looked into it. I do know that everyone's conviction is different. If I hear of a company spending my consumer's money on projects I don't believe in, I cut the company off completely. I have a very select few places I can shop. But that is my conviction.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Can you say hypocrisy...???

Reminds me of the "sanctity of marriage" crowd out screwing everything that will stand still or the DOMA crowd praising the lord and the godliness of heterosexuality and screwing other men in public bathrooms.

Anyone ever read the novel "Elmer Gantry"?


Jim Bean 2 years ago

Talk about hypocrisy. People scream SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE when it applies to the government allowing prayer in schools, but when the government tries to dictate and step on religious rights, you guys forget about the separation then! This is what happens when people go to extremes, the pendulum swings a bit too far in the issue and your own words come back to haunt you. lol


Wild Bill 2 years ago

mbuggieh,

It doesn't remind you of the Gay Pride Parades where they dress in scantly clad clothes if anything performing acts that should not be legally done in public, then say in the newspaper that they are just ordinary folks like heteros with jobs, mortgages, and stable relationships?


mbuggieh 2 years ago

I think we're all hypocrites---without reference to sex or gender or sexual orientation or religion or political affiliation or whatever other demographic variable one can conjure---and we all know it too.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Wow, something we both can agree on.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

Yep.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

But being a hyprocite isn't something that we should know about ourselves... and continue to do. Once we realize it, we are supposed to change for the better.


mbuggieh 2 years ago

I hear you.

Let' s agree to continue trying.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

But Michelle, you have to admit that is easier said than done. We should do it, but we always don't. I think that is true for most, if not all people.


Michelle Ascani profile image

Michelle Ascani 2 years ago from Deep in the Heart of Texas Author

Anything worth doing, usually takes hard work. It is much easier said than done, but it's worth it to have a character that's not rightfully targeted. We won't reach perfection on this earth, but it's still a goal to work towards.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

Thats right. People don't go on being hypocrites if they realise it. That would be crazy. We all fail sometimes but we don't all keep doing it! Maybe unless your ethics system is weakened by unethical habits eg failing to substitute a deserted spiritual system with an acceptable secular ethical system thus leaving an individual with no ethical standards or a confused system with no rudder.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

Oztinato,

I don't agree with you on that. I think we all are hypocrites in our own ways whether it be big or small. For instance, I absolutely hate when people pull out in front of me and I get so angry and say how dumb they are for doing so, yet when I am in a hurry or stuck at a two way stop sign for a while, I will do the same thing to someone else which most everyone does. Even though I feel I have a good reason, I am still doing something that I would not want done on myself, i.e. golden rule in essence making me a hypocrite.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

Wild Bill

Its the larger more important Hypocrisy endangering the planet that concerns me. The larger ethical questions are vital.

If we have whittled down our own self contradictions to questions of driving etiquette we are doing ok.

I dislike using Hitler as a handy bad example but to make a point: he was ethically concerned about vegetarianism at the same time as executing millions.

Also Dawkins for example: ethically concerned about the intolerance one religion shows to another while he exhibits total intolerance to ALL religions.

It is these highly dangerous forms of Hypocrisy and not the much smaller day to day minor contradictions that endanger all humanity.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

The example might seem trivial to you, but discipline takes practice on a daily basis, not just when one feels like applying it. A house is build one brick at a time. Take for instance the 7 Deadly Sins, Lust to be exact. Impure thoughts might not seem like a big deal, but that is usually the first step to masturbation, which can lead to viewing pornography, which can lead to an addiction, then a desensitization, which can lead to the need for more stimuli, which can lead to rape. In essence, a rapist always starts off by just having impure thoughts, so why chance it, just don't have impure thoughts. To put it simply in golf terms, you can't birdie every hole unless you birdie the first one.

If Hitler had maybe learned to control his feelings of wrath in his everyday life, he might not have become a mass murderer.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

Hypocrisy is a bigger word that slight contradiction.


Wild Bill 2 years ago

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, big or small.


Oztinato profile image

Oztinato 2 years ago from Australia

No, hypocrisy is very strong word reserved for a major ethical failing. We could say it is hypocritical to see hypocrisy everywhere!


Kylyssa profile image

Kylyssa 24 months ago from Overlooking a meadow near Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA

The comparison doesn't hold water because no one in America beats then discards their teenager for being gay because their belief in unicorns demands it. No one makes laws in the name of upholding their belief in unicorns or tries to control access to medical procedures and medications based on their belief in unicorns. No one hates everyone who doesn't believe in unicorns and no one will shun you or discriminate against you in your community if you admit you don't believe in unicorns. No one is fighting for exemptions to anti-bullying legislation so people can still bully others when their urge to be cruel comes from a deeply held belief in unicorns. No one is encouraging the murder of gays in Uganda because their belief in unicorns tells them being gay is a sin.


Jadie 24 months ago

Sarcasm was her point, but you're right... it's scary for Christians these days bc of atheists. We are just not safe any longer. Beatings, protests, arrests... List goes on and on.


Kylyssa profile image

Kylyssa 24 months ago from Overlooking a meadow near Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA

@Jadie

It's Christians who beat and discard their gay kids, not atheists. It's Christians making laws that allow them to discriminate based on religion or bully if their religion inspires the bullying, not atheists. It's Christians behind the laws in Uganda that call for gays to be rounded up and murdered.


Jadie 24 months ago

Anyone who hates... is not really a Christian. They are just hiding behind the name as some sort of front.


Kylyssa profile image

Kylyssa 24 months ago from Overlooking a meadow near Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA

@Jadie

I don't know if they are real Christians or not. Their actions aren't the fault of Christianity but of their own corruption. But they are what atheists see waving flags and clutching Bibles while doing awful things. Unfortunately, many atheists take the corrupt Christians at their word and believe the religion is to blame like the corrupt Christians say it is. So then they get outspoken in the wrong way.

We should, instead, be exposing the bad behavior of Christians doing bad things in the name of Christianity to their fellow Christians, who are often infuriated by it as a betrayal of their religious affiliation in addition to being wrong already.


muffin 20 months ago

I love unicorns.

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