In defense of the theologically indefensible

 

There has been a fair amount of outrage at a Hub published recently by a "SirDent" where a Christian points out that Islam does not measure up to the levels of "goodness" that Christianity embodies. The Hubber unfortunately makes several incendiary statements which betray his fundamental lack of understanding of Islam. It is difficult to understand how a person can write a commentary on Islam and its values when they have never even heard of basic Islamic terms as muhrim.

If he had any comprehension of his theological opponent, he would have known better than to include one of the derogatory Danish cartoons showing Muhammad (PBUH), as it is forbidden by the faith to show any image of the Prophet. That cartoon showing a bearded Arab is ridiculously incorrect anyway, as the Hadith tells us that Muhammad (PBUH) was "a white man."

It is indisputable that the Holy Qur'an is a very different book than the Holy Bible. After all the Hub's author states that the Islamic book contains verses like:

"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them." (Al-Qur'an 9:5)

A precursory googling will reveal all sorts of quotes from the Qur'an which easily lend themselves to knee-jerk inflammatory misinterpretation, such as that Muslims should chop off the heads and fingers of non-believers (8:12-13); or maybe just slice off their hands and feet (5:34); or it's likely enough just to cut off the heads (47:4) or heck, why not just slaughter them all (47:3) wherever you find them (2:191), since Paradise is under the shades of swords anyway (4:73).

The Qur'an also goes on to state that Christians and Jews are cursed by God (9:29-31); that Muslims should take as polygamist concubines their female POWs (33:50) and of course that it's fine to beat women (4:34) since their rights are inferior to men (4:11, 2:228) and they're just sex objects anyway (2:223).

Once the verses from the Suras are misread in that fashion, the only conclusion that can be arrived at is that Islam promotes violence and hatred. That is the crux of that Hub's argument: Jesus would never do that. However, that interpretation does not take into account that there are ample quotes in the Holy Bible which can be misinterpreted in exactly the same erroneous fashion:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke 22:36)

"Those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)

Of course, Jesus would never beat anyone with a whip!

"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple" (John 2:15)

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)

Jesus taught his disciples to practice family values.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:35-36)

And Jesus loved everyone, not just Jews.

"He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (Matthew 15:24-26)

OK, so the uninitiated and uneducated lay person would have to conclude that Jesus was a man who promoted warfare, violence and terrorism, beat people with whips, hated anyone who was not a Jew, and told his disciples to hate their entire families.

You can't argue with the Holy Bible, the fundamentalists say! It is the perfect and true word of the Lord.

Er... but if it's infallible, why does it say that Jesus bore his own cross in John 19:17 but didn't in Matthew 27:31-32; Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew 26:48-50 but didn't in John 18:3-12; Jesus allowed his disciples to keep a staff on their journey in Mark 6:8, but not in Luke 9:3; and that Jesus prayed to the Lord to prevent his crucifixion in Mark 14:36 but didn't in John 12:27?

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism? Matthew 3:13-14 says yes, but John 1:32-33 says no, which states that John recognized Jesus after his baptism... while Matthew 11:2 says he didn't.

OK, there are some minor discrepancies (hmm... in the word of the infallible creator... how can that be...), but the rest of the Bible is essentially correct in its teachings, right?

Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-32 tells you to kill gays; Deuteronomy 22:13-21 tells you to kill your bride when you find out she's not a virgin, but Genesis 25:1-6 says it's ok to keep a mistress, and I Timothy 3:1-12 says it's fine to have multiple wives. Yippee! I was starting to get bored with monogamy anyway. Too bad that Leviticus 15:19-33 teaches that menstruation is unclean and women must make sin offerings due to their periods. Filthy sinner women! Thank goodness that I Corinthians 11:3-15, 14:24-35 and I Timothy 2:11-14 clarify that women should be silent, in subjection and learn only from the man who is the "head of the woman." It's a darn good thing women can't speak up or they might complain when you follow Psalms 137:9 and Isaiah 14:21-22 and kill your kids, but fortunately Proverbs 22:15 and 22:13-14 just tell you to beat your kids with clubs.

Of course the Holy Bible should not be read literally word for word and out of context! And neither should the Holy Qur'an! If you dig enough you can find a quote in either sacred scripture to prove or misprove almost anything at all if you place it entirely out of context! So Judeo-Christians and Muslims should not engage in pulling this and that quote out, disregarding the context, and tossing them at each other. The Bible and the Qur'an are books of love and grandeur, not hatred and violence.

What it all boils down to is this: You can delve into any religion's scripture and find quotes that are patently absurd if not outright repulsive by today's standards. The same can be said of the Bhagavad Gita, the Talmud, the Tao-te-Ching, and even Dianetics. Oh... sorry... every word in Dianetics is absurd and repulsive. But that's because Scientology is not a religion, it's a money-grubbing Ponzi Scheme.

To all the readers of this Hub who firmly believe that their religion is right and all the other ones are wrong, I have a wakeup call: You're wrong! At the heart of every true religion on Earth is the core of having faith in your Creator. It is that one-on-one relationship which binds us to the nature of all things which is the ultimate mystery and it is that which must be protected and nurtured above all else. Tossing out of context quotes across the theological trenches like hand grenades is a pointless exercise. At the heart of Christianity, Islam and every other honest religion is the indescribable wonder of God and our place in this infinitely complex and profoundly beautiful universe. It's much better for all of us to share in its infinite wonder and put away the quote guns.

I believe with Mahatma Gandhi that: "I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am a Christian, I am a Jew... and so are all of you."

BTW, I am not including Ebay, Amazon or Kontera features, and am formally requesting Hubpages that I not be compensated in any way from this Hub. Not only does it stray far afield from my standard PC Tech and Motorcycle focus, but I wouldn't want to violate I Timothy 6:9-10, Matthew 19:23-24, Proverbs 23:4-5, Matthew 6:24, Luke 12:15 ...

Late breaking news

Note: I have willingly CENSORED comments against SirDent that may have been taken as personal attacks to assuade those who think that I have a personal vendetta against a man who not only do I not know, but don't even know what his real name is! However, I will not back down on my stand that those evil words must be taken down by HubPages now!

I am restating some quotes and information here that I had already included in my replies to some of the comments as this situation with SirDent's Hub has recently taken a very negative turn.

I recently found out that SirDent (or someone) has eliminated the comments capsule on his Hub. He claims he did so to eliminate the two links from his Hub to this one, but he also wiped out almost 300 comments from upstanding respectable Muslims and sympathizers who attacked his CENSORED. However, SirDent also left statements on the page that Mohammed (PBUH) "is a liar, a murderer, a pedophile and a thief. He is a false prophet who should have been killed..."

I personally will not stand for this. I am going to do everything that I can to have these CENSORED calumnies struck from HubPages. The right to freedom of speech does not include slandering one billion people. I stated that I would defend SirDent's right to express himself under the U.S. Consitution, but I believe this no longer skirts "hate speech" but is a "hate speech," and the Supreme Court has repeatedly clarified that this form of expression is a criminal act and not protected under the First Amendment.

My various comments to SirDent include:

The constitutional right to freedom of speech does NOT include yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre, nor does it allow you to slander one billion people.

SirDent, whoever you are, you do not belong in a respectable family-rated site like HubPages, but locked away with other CENSORED where you cannot hurt anyone but yourself. The only truth you know is that you are a profoundly CENSORED man riddled with CENSORED towards anyone who does not share your extreme minority ultra-fundamentalist view of Christianity.

My name is Hal Licino. That is a matter of public record. Google me and confirm that I have hundreds of writing credits outside of HubPages. Who exactly are you, "SirDent" and why do you hide behind a moniker?

I was born and raised a Christian, sir. And with all that magnificent religion has taught me about forgiving, I cannot forgive the offense which you insist on foisting on all the good and respectable Muslims on Earth.

I ask for all Muslims and fair-hearted people of any religion who read this to join me and vociferously demand that this CENSORED offense to the Prophet of a great world religion be forever struck from this site.

The management of HubPages will listen!

Please place your comments here and let us in brotherhood work together to get these despicable words off of this fine HubPages site.

 

 

 

 

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Comments 90 comments

SirDent 8 years ago

http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

Read that and then tell me they love peace with a straight face. I really don't like you using my hub for your platform either, but I let your comment stand anyway.


MrMarmalade profile image

MrMarmalade 8 years ago from Sydney

Suggest Pistols at 3.00 AM in the middle of a snow storm and a heavy fog.

One of you might just nick the other one.

Then we can all settle down and be at peace again


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Mr. SirDent, I vehemently object to your blatant prejudice, most of which stems from a profound ignorance of Islam, (and many may even say Christianity) but I will defend to the death your right to air your opinion. HubPages is a magnificent forum for the free exchange of ideas and you have every right as I do to etch onto the cyberether whatever words we want, and let the general reader choose to experience them or not. We should always rejoice in the personal freedoms which we are granted to be able to express our views, even when they are fundamentally erroneous, and in your case may very well demonstrate bigotry which could be skirting on the periphery of "hate crime."

I will not "take the bait" to debate whether "they love peace." There is nothing in Islam which loves or hates peace any more or less than in Judeo-Christianity. If you were aware of the lessons of the past you would not only realize that the Crusades may have been the most vicious unilateral and unprovoked assault on another culture in human history, but that the last time the Jewish people rightfully dwelled in Palestine was well before the birth of Christ.

I trust that you would not be amused if a foreign government sided with the American First Nations and hoofed you out of your house to give your entire state to the descendants of the Amerindians who lived on the land you call yours centuries before you were born. Having said that, Israel has every right to exist in peace as all nations do. They have no more or no less right than the Palestinians who have spent the past 60 years as refugees from their own land. Both sides need to realize that the only solution to their, as well as every other world (and even HubPages) crisis, is to live in harmony together as brothers.

But this is not a commentary on current events. This is a reply to your theological treatise which I continue to maintain is written from an inbred bigotry. I will not accuse you of being mendacious or outright deceitful. I do believe, however, that you are simply uninformed and may be completely oblivious to the fact that your words are venomous to over one billion people who have every right to have their beliefs respected. As I stated in my Hub above, if you believe that you are right and they are wrong, whether you be on the Christian, Muslim, or Zoroastrian side, you are a moron.

My name is Hal Licino. That is a matter of public record. Google me and confirm that I have hundreds of writing credits outside of HubPages. Who exactly are you, "SirDent" and why do you hide behind a moniker?


Sylvia 8 years ago

Loved the hub - wish more thought like that - what a wonderful world it would be! Imagine if we all gave the Universal Life Force a lot more life and power!


Rowda 8 years ago from Dallas, Tx

I loved Your Hub! But some people are just to dense to even try and open their eyes and review the true facts. They just choose to hide behind the lies. But I applaud your work.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Thank you, Rowda. I have held these beliefs since the time I first started doing theological research at Drew University in New Jersey. It simply seemed self-evident that our Creator wants us all to be brothers and sisters, regardless of our specific creeds. As Sylvia has stated, it would be a wonderful world!


Bean 8 years ago

Hal, I've been reading your articles for over a year and this is your most remarkeble one yet. If everyone applied these principals the world would be a great place. Too bad you're a Canadian as youd make a great president of the United States.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

If drafted I will not run, if elected I will not serve... :)

Thank you, Bean. That was an exceptionally kind thing to say and I really appreciate the kudos!


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Well, I just found out that SirDent (or someone) has eliminated the comments capsule on his hub while leaving statements on the page that Mohammed (PBUH) "is a liar, a murderer, a pedophile and a thief. He is a false prophet who should have been killed..."

I personally will not stand for this. I am going to do everything that I can to have these vicious calumnies struck from HubPages. The right to freedom of speech does not include slandering one billion people. I stated that I would defend SirDent's right, but I believe this no longer skirts "hate speech" but is a "hate speech."

I ask for all Muslims and fair-hearted people of any religion who read this to contact HubPages and vociferously demand that this vicious offense to the Prophet of a great world religion be forever struck from this site.

Please place your comments here and let us in brotherhood work together to get these despicable words off of this fine HubPages site.


SirDent 8 years ago

I hid the comments. I stated yesterday that I was going to hide them after about 24 hours. You can do whatever you want to do. It is a free country. But I believe that you used my hub for a platform for this hub. You used it to promote your article and I allowed the first link to stay, but the second time I deleted it.

Do what you want, but truth will always overcome lies. Call me a hater or whatever you want. I know the truth, and it is absolute truth.


hithere 8 years ago

I am new here, but it sounds like you care way too much about what other people are writing.


HiThere 8 years ago

Sorry but I still think both of you should try to get along better.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

HiThere: I am a man of good conscience and cannot sit idly by while raw hatred is spewed against the innocent.

SirDent: The constitutional right to freedom of speech does NOT include yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre, nor does it allow you to slander one billion people.

You did not hide the comments capsule due to my two post links which you could have easily deleted, but to hide almost 300 comments from many fine, upstanding people who were completely outraged at your blatant hate speech.

SirDent, whoever you are, you do not belong in a respectable family-rated site like HubPages, but locked away with other racists and bigots where you cannot hurt anyone but yourself. The only truth you know is that you are a profoundly sick man riddled with hatred towards anyone who does not share your extreme minority ultra-fundamentalist view of Christianity. 

I was born and raised a Christian, sir. And with all that magnificent religion has taught me about forgiving, I cannot forgive the offense which you insist on foisting on all the good and respectable Muslims on Earth. 


Sylvia 8 years ago

I was born and raised a Christian too - and you know what is sooooo sad? That more Christians can't be more Christ-like! No SirDent - I don't think you should be locked away but I do pity you - that you know your Bible but can't practice it! Therein lies the tragedy! We have the key to the greatest secret in the world - love - and how many of us use it! If only.....


balisunset profile image

balisunset 8 years ago from A tropical paradise island

I do believe in freedom of speech.....

But there is no absolute freedom, even in United States

Freedom without law will turn into anarchy and chaos.

Freedom often must give a way for TOLERANCE and RESPECT for others.

I myself will not make a hub that would hurt the heart of my fellow hubbers, I respect their faith, conviction and country.

Therefore, I do hope my fellow hubbers respect my faith, convictions and country.


HiThere 8 years ago

I went to read the hub with Sirdent just to see why everyone was mad. However, you seem to be doing some of the same things. He is acting silly and so are you. I agree with Mr. Marmalade up top.


CJStone profile image

CJStone 8 years ago from Whitstable, UK

Hal Licino, thanks for a first class, well-balanced and objective hub, and for your evocation of the indescribable wonder of God. Peace be with you too. I am definitely your fan.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Sylvia: I could not have possibly put it better myself. We need to apply love and understanding in all of our human interactions. Hatred and bigotry have no place in any human heart.

Balisunset: Tolerance and respect for others must be first and foremost especially when it deals with a person's own belief system in any major world religion, no matter what it is.

HiThere: I do not believe that standing up for the rights of one billion Muslims to not have their most basic belief systems violated by a single hatred-driven man who insists on calling their highest Prophet "those words" is "acting silly". We all have a right and most of all a sacred obligation to stand up against injustice and prejudice against any fellow human being, regardless of their creed. If hate-mongerers like SirDent are allowed to spread their calumnies without any regard of how many people they offend and hurt, then we are all responsible for spreading that hate. My conscience will have no part of that.

T.Keeley: I can respect your interpretation of Biblical events as the Bible like the Qu'ran is a text written many centuries ago and there are various schools of interpretation, most of them quite valid. I do disagree strongly, however, that coexistence cannot occur. I believe that it is the highest calling of any human being to work towards achieving peace and understanding. Many of the world's nations were at one time or another, ripped apart by wars, both foreign and civil. There are many people alive today which we have to thank for putting their lives on the line on foreign soil to keep us all from having to salute Heil Hitler every day. The European Union was a continent virtually devastated by war in the last century. The United States was at war with itself the century before that. The clear and evident fact that these formerly warring nations can now coexist in harmony and cooperation clearly shows that people of good will can work together and actually achieve long-lasting peace. I am supremely confident that peace will come to the Middle East and other conflict-ravaged regions of this world. All it takes is that people like us don't sit idly by while the SirDents of the planet sow their destructive seeds of hatred, but work hard every single day to build a future of peace and understanding for our children and their children.

CJStone: Thank you. Peace be with you too.


funride profile image

funride 8 years ago from Portugal

After reading this hub if I was not already your fan I would have join immediately ;)


grumpyjacksa profile image

grumpyjacksa 8 years ago from south africa

1 : i am not allowed to judge the beliefs of another , whether i agree with it or not .

2 : just as i have an "agreeement" with my Creator , with the contract being stipulated in the Bible , so the muslim s have their "agreement" with their Creator , their contract being the Qur'an . who are we as mere mortals to question the validity of the contract , or the agreement ?

3 : and here is the sad part : the average muslim is much more serious about the practice of religion , than the average christian . they pray five times a day , EVERY day , and make various other sacrifices practicing their religion .

if nothing else , we can at least respect the effort they put into it . most us are lazy by comparison .

and no , i'm not a muslim , but christian .


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Readers;I have no interest in communicating with Hal. He ended that possibility in his last posts on SirDent's thread. So, I encourage all of you to pull out your Bibles and read his scriptures for yourself. See if you think this thread has merit. I will let you decide when you have read this counter to his post. Still, I leave that up to you. Please don't just take my word for it. 

It is sad to see this thread here.  There is much in this thread, and I will deal with it piecemeal. SirDent was giving his opinion, and Hal has given his. I will also give mine, now.

First Hal states the translation of the Quran, and the scriptures are duly noted for all to read. They are what they are. All SirDent asked for in his thread was a counter opinion if there was one. None was ever written, as he said repeatedly throughout his thread.

Now, I will deal with the scriptures Hal posted from the Bible. I think the first one tells it all. Let me first tell you the two preceding verses. "“Whoever, then, acknowledges  me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven." This is in fact the core passage of the entire Bible. It is the choice that every man and woman has to make. I have made my choice to follow Jesus as best I can. I will shout it to the ends of the earth if possible. Hal's quotation of this scripture is totally void of any conviction of Christ or any Christian. Jesus never tells anyone to use the sword. Strike one...

This chapter deals with the persecution that Jesus tells his disciples that they will face, and he was right. This is exactly what I feel Hal is trying to do, too. So, I will stand firmly in my convictions for Jesus and God. I welcome Hal to do the same, but of course I am not foolishly holding my breath.

Next, Luke 22:36. This is the story of Jesus predicting His crucifixion to the disciples, i.e. Peter. The scripture Hal references again says absolutely nothing about anyone using a sword. In fact, it is his prediction of His own death by the sword at the cross. Strike two...

Well certainly, Hal would not strike out so easily, right? Well, your third verse is Luke 19:27. This is the last verse of the parable of the Ten Minas, yes the PARABLE. This is a tale being told. This king (not God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit) in the parable is the one saying that. One out, strike three...

OK, I have a little more time now, let's move on through Hal's indictments of Christianity. Next comes John 15:6. In this passage, Jesus says that His disciples bear fruit through following Him. So, what is the big deal about that? Now, if you want to claim that hell is evil, well that is the breaks, I guess. I didn't make the rules. Personally, I want to know how to avoid that. So, I have decided to read the Bible, not the Cliff Notes. Yet, this passage does not necessarily refer to hell, but that would be the worst possible meaning. One out, strike one...

Next, Hal comes with this one, "Of course, Jesus would never beat anyone with a whip! And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple" (John 2:15)"True, Jesus never was accused of beating anyone. You incorrectly infer this. He was upset with the churches being used for commerce frivolously. What is your point in this thread? Maybe I will find out. In the meantime, one out, strike two...

Certainly, there must be something other than just whiffs in this thread. Let's go to the next one, Luke 12:47. This is another parable, a story. No one is being told to hit anyone or do anything bad. This passage tells people to work hard to serve. Trying to cheat the boss will just get you in trouble. What is wrong with that. Maybe Hal tries to cheat his boss? Is that the point?. Either way, two outs (six whiffs)...

Luke 14:26 does require theological training which Hal claims to have. All major theologians agree that this is a passage requiring discernment to understand relative levels. The Greek word "miseo" does mean hate. Jesus often used parables as illustrations, as is clear throughout Hal's post already. This passage is spoken directly to the disciples. His point is illustrated in other places in the Bible, too. Jesus was able to predict the horrible fates that His disciples would receive. So, he said that the disciples' lives would be miserable here on earth. Of course, no parent wants that for their child. So, Jesus knew the pain that was ahead for the disciples, as Himself. Long story short, whiff seven - two outs, strike one...

Matt 10:35-36 is the identical story in another place in the Bible. Remember there are 12 disciples, so their stories are related in multiple places. Here is another good way to look at this. Just look at Hal himself. He is striking out against SirDent. SirDent's life is pained by this, wouldn't you say? This is the example that Jesus gives. I am persecuted often by my love of Jesus. It does not deter me whatsoever. I deal with the pain from others and the puny irritations from Satan. Still, Jesus is just correctly predicting strife.

Uh oh, it is almost game over for ole Hal here. Maybe his next point will be good, two out, strike two.

Matthew 15:24-26 is truly game over for Hal. This shows the spirit of... well, you read the passage and judge that for yourself! Hal is indicating through this that he has no compassion for needy people, it seems to me. Either that or he does not have the religious training he claims perhaps. I do not know. In the passage Hal quoted, Jesus healed a little girl who was brought to Jesus' attention by her mother. Jesus worked a miracle to heal that poor girl! That totally revolts me that Hal would come on this forum and try to mislead all of you to think that it is wrong to help the needy and the disadvantaged. I apologize to all of you for my indignant anger against this, but just read the scriptures yourself if you cannot see how this feels to me.

You see, that was the central theme of Jesus' life. He healed the sick, the poor and the disadvantaged. Well, Hal, I could not be prouder to follow Him!


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Funride: Thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated!

Grumpyjacksa: There are extremely devout Muslims as there are pius people in every religion. I agree fully with your statement that as mere mortals we cannot question the validity of anyone's covenant with their Creator.

Viralprospector: You mentioned that you have no interest communicating with me, but I continue to encourage you to post any of your viewpoints on this thread which, like the one you have just written, discuss theological points without abusing, insulting, or offending the followers of any major world religion. You are most welcome to dispute my opinions as I am a firm believer that only through intellectual discourse can any differences between religions be resolved. I have made my points and you are making your counterpoints in harmony and brotherhood. That is the way it should be. I rejoice in your dedication to your religion and am happy to learn that you are proud to follow Jesus.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

I am totally cool with that, Hal;

You say, "OK, so Jesus was a man who promoted warfare, violence and terrorism, beat people with whips, hated anyone who was not a Jew, and told his disciples to hate their entire families." Yet, my previous post detailed exactly how totally false this claim is...

The Bible is the most read book in all of history. Give it a shot...


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

My statement about Jesus was clearly and evidently written ONLY to prove my point stated a bit further down that:

"You can delve into any religion's scripture and find quotes that are patently absurd if not outright repulsive by today's standards."

Of course Jesus was not a criminal terrorist. It is completely wrong to make that assumption just as it is about Mohammed (PBUH) or any other major religious icon. All major world religions revolve around bringing imperfect and sinning humans to light, hope, happiness and the perfection of the Creator: All of them have peace and love at their core.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;Ok, I have a little more time now. Let's see how game two goes.You say that John 19:17 and Matthew 27:31-32 contradict each other. Neither verse contradicts the other. Well, Jesus had just been beaten, lost a lot of blood and was very weak, He carried the cross UNTIL He no longer could. Then Simon took it. Strike one... You say that Matthew 26:48-50 contradicts John 19:3-12. Of course that is false. There is no statement that contradicts the other. Wouldn't you be suspicious if the two versions were identical instead? That is frankly just nonsense. Strike two...You compare Matthew 6:8 with Luke 9:3, and you claim that there is a discrepancy there. That is your best point so far, but it is still false. The word two or extra appears in Luke 9:3. If you study Greek, you will see that the words are not placed in English order. To make it translate right, the two verses sound different, but they are absolutely not. Strike two...How about Mark 14:36 vs John 12:27? Surely there must be discrepancy here? Nope, these are different chronologies of the time before Jesus' crucifixion. One is in the time before the disciples awoke, the other is after they awoke. Strike three, and out.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

You seem to miss my basic point. Can you possibly read my original Hub and not realize that the references are tongue in cheek to show Christians like you and me how we can also misinterpret the famous Sura quotes about violence in the Holy Qu'ran? For the record, once again, Jesus was a great and holy religious icon who came to Earth only to help humanity. So was Mohammed (PBUH). No religion has a right to disparage a great figure from another religion. Also remember that Jesus is considered with extremely high regard by Muslims everywhere!


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

Oh yikes, so sorry that my paragraphs disappeared in my edit of my last Post! Suffice it to say that it totally refutes your claims, 100%. Maybe you can read it...

Like I said, you put a lot in your post, so I have a lot of work to clear the air on how wrong you are. Next, you compare Matthew 3:13-14 with John 1:32-33. YOu say they differ, but they do not at all. You have toback up in John to verse 29, where John does say he knows him. Matthew 11:2 has nothing to do with this at all. Strike one...

You then claim, "OK, there are some minor discrepancies (hmm... in the word of the infallible creator... how can that be...), but the rest of the Bible is essentially correct in its teachings, right?" However, you have proven absolutely nothing wrong, so strike two...

Leviticus 20 is God's direct commands to Moses for that time only. God needed to cleanse the tribe from disease and other sickness separatingthe weak from the strong at that time only. God commands all people "thou shalt not kill". God needed to deal with this uncivilization in harsh ways to accomplish their journey. You and I were not there to know the need for this action. Historians describe this as a horribly uncivilized time. It was clearly told that it was not to be repeated again. Strike three...


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

My friend. I regret that you insist on playing baseball and continue to miss my basic point. Let me state it once again: We as Christians misinterpret the words of the Suras in exactly the same way I purposely and intentionally misinterpreted the word for word literal quotes from the Holy Bible. It is wrong... wrong... WRONG to read these scriptures in a word for word literal fashion and come to the determination that either the Holy Bible or the Holy Qu'ran are intended in any way, shape or form, to provoke hatred, violence, or mistreatment of another human being.

Besides... baseball bores me. I'm an NFL fan. :)


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

Sorry for going on. We were posting at the same times. I did not mean to be a bore to you.

I of course do not know your motivation. I can only read the words you write and determine for myself. My point is that the Bible is infallible, and the word of God and Jesus are right for me right this minute. I am ever ready to defend my Holy Book, the Bible.

You lash out at SirDent, but his bub stood for weeks without anyone refuting his claims that the Quran is a violent testament, relevent to today (I paraphrase, and SirDent is more than capable to speak for himself). I saw him ask repeatedly for someone to debate the verses from the Quran over and over. Still, no one debated him on the scriptures he presented to the forum.

SirDent then gave due notice that he was going to pull the thread because there were very mean things being said. Cruel and heartless things were repeated there, so he was right to pull the thread, even though his comments stood unchallenged. Well, your comments were challenged, refuted and proven invalid. So that is quite another matter altogether.

I simply have interest to set the record straight. I hope this ends the feuding.

I have never been able (nor have I tried) to distinguish how one person is innately better than another. So, I am glad to embrace any person for their real worth.

I want all of us to work together on the real issues staring us in the face. People are starving. There is rampant abuse of power that threatens America at its very core. The basis of our currency has been hidden away somewhere. Yeah, let's all focus on doing something about something that we can do something about. None of us can rewrite the Quran or the Bible. Together, we can make the best of it, though.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

I strongly disagree that SirDent's comments were unchallenged, as many righteous people vehemently railed against his bigoted statements. In almost exactly six months from today, the Internet Wayback Machine will have the full page with all the comments available on their service. I can download it, screenshot it, and post it if anyone likes. That way SirDent's cowardly act of deleting all 300 or so comments which proved he was a racist hate-filled evil man will return to the light of day and people can make up their own minds.

I do not want to repeat those horrific words he used against Mohammed (PBUH) which I have listed at the bottom of my Late Breaking News (and which as of this writing are still on his Hub Page). My friend, are you telling me that in the almost 300 replies, some of which were extremely angry, no one challenged these blatant and hateful lies against the Prophet? Were you reading the same page I was? Regardless... the Internet Wayback Machine will have the last word.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

I am simply saying that the translations of the Quran were unchallenged. That is where the confusion seems to have come in. SirDent did keep emphasizing that and saying that he would close down the thread.

What I mean was that the thrust of SirDent's post was the scriptures translated from the Quran, at least as I saw it. I know there was debate about Muhammad, too, I do grant you that. I confess that I did overlook that part, as it seemed irrelevent to me. Perhaps I should have read that, not just skimmed it. So, I really am sorry if I missed some important points. As you say, it was a huge thread.

Yes, lots of generalities were tossed about in the other thread, but translations stand unless challenged. That is the exact reason that I challenged your translation of the Bible. It is totally irrelevent what Christians or Muslims do, in my opinion. Yes, there were all sorts of insults against people of Christian religion, but that does not change the Bible.

I think Muslims are great people, and that does not alter the Quran. A religion is only the written word of its holy book, with the exception of those religions that choose to transmit their lessons orally (which is fine). I hated to see all the arguing beofre, and I hope that that does not get going again, but I do know this is an emotionally charged issue.

There is a marked difference between the intent to quote the written word accurattely and to accuse its people of doing something, truly. I do not support railng against any group. That is just prejudice. but translating their holy book is a matter of fact and study.


Mostafa 8 years ago

I am a Muslim and I do not like what Sirdent has written. I do not like what Hal has written either because he says I am a moron for thinking my religion is the right one


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Viralprospector: I too want to ensure that this thread does not degenerate into mudslinging. Translations of holy scriptures are always subject to vast variations in interpretations especially when they have been translated over millennia from Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic, etc. The only aspect that truly matters is how much we profoundly believe in our Creator and his infinitely perfect plan for each and every moment and action of our lives.

Mostafa: With the greatest possible respect, I stand by my words. Can you possibly defend the point that Islam is right and the God of 5.4 billion other people is wrong? I see no essential difference between the Judeo-Christian God, Allah, Krsna, Buddha, or the "deity form" of any other religion. I am of the opinion that God is to be worshiped as each of us best see fit. We are coming to the understanding that there may be Earth-like planets orbiting around billions of other stars, and many of them have the proper conditions for sapient life. Are we to expect that these intelligent beings base their beliefs on the Qu'ran or the Bible or the Bhagavad-gita? Of course they will have their own structures based on their own historical precedents and intellectual proclivities to define their relationship with their God, who just also happens to be your God and my God. The bottom line is marvelously simple: There is only one God and he created this perfect universe. If we could all understand this, we could finally put down our weapons, be they words or guns, which we pointlessly wield to try and convince others that we are right and they are wrong.


Sylvia 8 years ago

Amen :)


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

I have also seen some amateurish and unprofessional efforts at translation. However, there is no question what the meaning of the Quran and the Bible are. These original manuscripts have countless accepted translations that have no real variations in meaning. I guess it is important to study up on the subject. After a cursory review of the subject, though, it s simple to find correct translations that do not change the original meanings of these books.

I think the point is the immense difference between the Quran and the Bible. Certainly, religion should generate a strong adherence to its commands. While I see far more similarities than differences betweeen Muslims and Christians, it is still important to note the differences in those books.

Actually, it seems ironic to me that Muslims actually seem to be more Biblical in action, while Christians seem to to more follow the spirit of the Quran. I know that is a sweeping generalization, and it is only one man's opinion. That is today. Who knows what the future holds for this...


Paraglider profile image

Paraglider 8 years ago from Kyle, Scotland

Hal - This is well written and timely. Unfortunately, in this forum, good writing, i.e. writing that correctly employs rhetorical devices, tends to go over the heads of many people in Internetland. Education is not all it should be. SirDent's hub was an abomination, as many people observed, Christians, Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics included. But he is incorrigible. The pity is that so many people do not have the education or disposition to differentiate between hate-inspired garbage and reasoned argument. And as long as this prevails, bigots will have their followers.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Sylvia: Definitely Amen again. At this point in human history we need love, understanding and peace to prevail possibly more than ever before.

ViralProspector: This is a strictly personal opinion but I don't see overwhelming differences between the Bible and the Qur'an. Since the latter was built on the foundations of the former, it is feasible to consider the Islamic book as a New(er) Testament. Since the Bible was written and rewritten to its current form in over three millennia while the Qur'an was finalized in "at most" 50 years, the Islamic book is a more vivid reflection of the sociopolitical profile of a specific age in a specific culture and that makes it a more "obvious" target for the hate mongerers who claim it is a book written on bloodshed. When some scholars speak of a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, I don't see much reason to argue with the point. It seems to make sense that Islam is a valid and vivid offshoot of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Paraglider: Thanks for the kind words. Yes, bigotry has always existed and will likely continue to do so. But I believe, with the Mahatma, that "when I look at the greatest civilizations of man, the way of truth and love has always prevailed throughout time." That is why it is important to continue to struggle against prejudice and inequity wherever we find it. I believe it is a basic driving prerequisite to being able to be at harmony with your human conscience and with that undefinable aspect we call our God.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

If you continue to make comments like - that the Bible and the Quran are similar- you will get way, way more than you bargained for. You will have an all out free for all, just like SirDent's previous post.

Let me make this perfectly clear to you. Those two books share none of the same tone and ultimate meaning. They are not sequiters of one another. Quite the opposite. I do not want to argue this point, but I will if necessary.

I am doing everything I can to try to keep the peace here, but I will not let such outlandish lies stand. Yes, I am here to defend the Bible against lies (just as I would if I knew a lie was told against the Quran - but my knowledge of it is much less), and that is a total 100% lie that they are connected in some way. Now, please quit stirring the pot or be prepared for the consequences. I would much rather write the total truth and be accused of being a trouble maker, if that is your goal here. I want to avoid that, so please quit comparing the Bible and The Quran. I am totally prepared to finish that argument if such arises, against my wishes.

I have very purposefully discredited the original post of this thread, just as I monitored SirDent's thread. I have said before that there were very clear and purposeful translations of the Quran in SirDent's deleted thread. They ended up standing unchallenged. I will be happy to revisit that subject with specific scriptural translations of the Quran, if this continues.

Haven't we had enough of this yet?


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Yikes, dude. Peace be upon you too. But I am not going to back down on what is virtually universally agreed upon by theologians. Google "bible qur'an similarities" and there are 80,000+ references disputing your viewpoint. "Islam is a valid and vivid offshoot of the Judeo-Christian tradition:" That phrase will stand as it will be difficult to find any theological scholar with a degree they didn't get off the side of a box of Corn Flakes who would argue that point. The figurative branching of Judaism has a Christian tangent approximately 70 AD and that has an Islamic offshoot at about 650 AD.

Are we going to play the "my religion is right and everyone else's is wrong" game again? I wouldn't care if the skies would open and "your choice of deity" would step out of the clouds... I still wouldn't be convinced. God is God. But you, of course, are more than welcome to keep trying. Freedom of civilized discourse which does not reflect hatred is always welcome by people of good will! :)


Rowda 8 years ago from Dallas, Tx

Actually The quran and the bible did hold the same meaning until the bible was changed. all books were written to be equal but in different languages so that different people could read them. but the only book that has never been changed is the quran. there are so many people in the world that have memorized the whole book word for word and letter for letter from front to back. This is a great thing becasue some people will try to send out copies of the quran that are fake to change the meaning of the quran (note: that in the language of arabic one letter changes the meaning of the whole word) but the people that have it memorized will review it and make sure that all the fake ones are out. So as much as you would like to say that the bible and the Quran do not hold the same values they do, but you can believe what you want because in the end you will see the truth.


Not-ignorant Christian :) 8 years ago

It's a shame that the internet has given ignorant, hateful people a forum where to spread their ignorance and hate.

As a Christian, I am ashamed as SirDent's lack of christian-like behavior, and ignorance. Only someone with not that many neurons could post such ignorant rant about Islam.

And before accusing Mohamed or anyone else of "pedophile", you should read the biographies of the first popes and the ages of their wives (if you know how to read). Just a thought ;)

I know Sir Dent probably has a hard time reading history books but if he did, he would know that marrying women that young was a common practice in every single religion at the time (he could also read the biographies of some of the early saints ;) .

And as a PhD student in religious studies, it disgusts me the academic lack of honesty when people quote snippets of verses out of context to make any religion look bad. We can do that with many Christian verse and with many Christian scholar's writings. Just because you don't freaking know the Bible and you don't freaking read any theological work it doesn't mean that it doesn't exists.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Rowda: I certainly agree that many of the post King James Bibles do have significant cases where the meanings of various verses has been subtly altered, while the original Qur'ans have not. It's fascinating to note that for the first few decades of the existence of the Qur'an, it was exclusively memorized and not written down at all.

Not-ignorant Christian: Welcome! It is a pleasure to have a well-qualified individual such as yourself here in our little sandbox. I wholeheartedly agree with your points! Hear, hear! :)


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

I think you have given this Quran/Bible similarity more than enough air time. I have warned you that I will next begin a very lengthy disocurse how different the Bible and the Quran are. It will get very, very ugly here real fast. However I totally refuse to allow you to equate Christianity with Islam. So, if you want the aftermath, just keep it up.

I am being very very controlled up to now. But be sure I am well prepared to totally discredit your comments about the similarity between the Bible and the Quran, just as I totally discredited your opening post about the Bible.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Rowda;

Your words are very inflammatory and childish. I feel sorry for you, but I will not be responsible for the results of you saying lies about the Bible. If you are doing this so I will lash out against the Quran with its exact translations, that is a very mean action against Islam. I realize that you do not represent any Muslim or their religion, so I will blow you off as irrelevent to this discussion. I hope that Muslims will see through your foolish actions and bring peace to this discussion.

I seek peace here, but I will not tolerate any more lies from you unanswered. If you are truly a Muslim, you embody some of the prejudices we are trying to dispel here. You are instigating a fight. That is after all the prejudice, right? Why do you fall right into that trap? Can't you see how hurtful that is to Islam?

Rowda says: "Actually The quran and the bible did hold the same meaning until the bible was changed."

VP says: That is a total 100% lie. It is a real shame that you make such foolish comments that noone would ever believe. The Bible is being translated today and has been since it was written from the exact scriptures. Go get educated and come back. That is absurd!

Rowda says: "all books were written to be equal but in different languages so that different people could read them."

VP says: That is 100% false, too, and everyone knows it. The Quran and the Bible were written at different times by different people and everyone knows that their meaning is far different.

but the only book that has never been changed is the quran.

That is true that the Quran has not changed, but it is not the ONLY book. Why must you lie about Christianity? Are you that bigoted? Are you that mean to make a mockery of Islam with your mean spirit against others? Why? I have never seen this claim before, so I think you made it up, but it is certainly not valid, as were the claims of Hal in his opening post. Real thought went into Hal's opening post. This is just inflammatory lying you are doing.

Rowda says: there are so many people in the world that have memorized the whole book word for word and letter for letter from front to back. This is a great thing becasue some people will try to send out copies of the quran that are fake to change the meaning of the quran (note: that in the language of arabic one letter changes the meaning of the whole word) but the people that have it memorized will review it and make sure that all the fake ones are out. So as much as you would like to say that the bible and the Quran do not hold the same values they do, but you can believe what you want because in the end you will see the truth.

VP says: Yes, in the end the truth will be known, you have that right. You would loveto see a SirDent Muhammad forum all over again, wouldn't you? I think Hal will leave it open, and it will be awful if that is the eventuality of this misinformation. I can only promise you that you will Absolutely not disparage the Bible in front of me. You are completely wrong, and you cannot find one bit of truth to corroborate your claims.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Not ignorant Christian;

Your comments do not seem reflective of a religious scholar.

You make very inflammatory comments about SirDent, but you do not tell where he erred. With that kind of alleged background and such an anger, you must have exceptionally strong reasons.

What did he say to irritate you so much? What were the errors of his post? Please give us some specifics.

You, above all, should also clearly know that the actions of any person does not change the religion. The holy books are sealed. Nothing can change the religion, yet you claim something about ancient Saints or something. That has nothing to do with the religions. That seems to be a very odd viewpoint of a religious scholar to me.

What "snippets" are you referring to? YOu must have information that you did not share on SirDent's thread. Why were you quiet about it then, but only now you want to air your complaints with SirDent?

Sorry if I sound skeptical. Perhaps there is a rational explanation for your intense indictment of SirDent.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Hey, VP:

1) I am not a coward like SirDent, so I'm closing this off ever. This page will stay open unless HubPages gets sick of it and yanks it.

2) You didn't discredit a damn thing, dude. Your constant "strike this, strike that" was just your opinion and it's worth exactly what mine is. Back it up with verifiable references from theological theses and papers from acknowledged learned scholars and you have something. Say that it's so because you say so and although you're welcome to your opinion, that and $5 will get you a Latte at Starbucks.

3) Don't come onto my Hub and tell me that "get very, very ugly here real fast". I don't take well to threats. You are more than welcome to air any of your opinions whether or not they are based on facts or your hallucinations. You will remain as welcome as can be as long as you don't step over the fine line between discourse and hate mongering that SirDent did. If you or anyone else crosses that line, you/they will find their posts deleted as fast as they can be posted.

4) Find me ONE, just ONE university level theologian who has ever stated that the Qur'an is not directly related to the Bible and that Islam is not a linear descendant of the Judeo-Christian religion and I will write ViralProspector-Is-Right-And-I-Am-An-Idiot on this Hub 100 times. How can you possibly insist on the fact that the Qur'an does not build on Christianity when you note that Jesus is discussed countless times within the text? It would be as absurd as stating that the Book Of Mormon is a stand-alone text even though it is primarily the (according to Mormons) story of Jesus after the Resurrection!!!


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

You are inflaming this thread with all your power. It shows your true colors, and why you made the thread at all. You want to hurt SirDent.

You were wrong, and I did totally 100% discredit your opening post. I am all the proof I need. If you can overcome my points, have at it. Otherwise your failure stands.

You are very good at writing inflaming things, then acting like others are at fault., You start it, then you want to act like you are the innocent victim. I am calm about the insults you have thrown unfairly at me. That is just your defense mechanism, and it is not unusual. The fact remains that your opening post is pure lies, and I feel confident that I have alredy proven that. If you have some question and think you can overcome my clear evidnece of your misstatements, then post them.

Otherwise, feel free to instigate tirvial fights with whomever you choose.

Hal, of course the Quran have similarities, like the Old Testament. I am well aware of the similarities, are you aware of the differences? If so, state them here so we can relize this is not just some hot air boloon. It is like saying black is the same as all other colors because it consists of them all. The meaning of the Quran and the Bible are hugely different. I do not need to satisfy your requests of me. First, show me that your posts are anything but conjecture.


funride profile image

funride 8 years ago from Portugal

Hi viral, don´t you have anything else better to do but defending the indefensible? Or are you trying to make Hal do the same as SirDent did, deleting all the comments :rolleyes:...

At least this way you´re helping this hub to be even hotter (more visibility), thanks ;)


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Funride: Right on! I'd love to get as many people on this thread to argue that HubPages wipe out SirDent's terrible words about the Prophet.

VP:"You want to hurt SirDent."

I don't even know who the hell SirDent is! He might as well be you as far as I know. Why should I give a good damn about SirDent and hurting him? He has made horrific accusations against Mohammed (PBUH) and I want to get enough people on this thread to demand that HubPages delete those blasphemies. If SirDent stops insulting Islam and apologizes for the offence he has caused, then he's welcome to come over to my house for a BBQ... and I won't even skewer and rotisserie him!

"I am well aware of the similarities, are you aware of the differences?"

Huh?

"The meaning of the Quran and the Bible are hugely different."

Yeah. No kidding. They deal with different times in the history of different cultures. So what? The Qur'an is built on Biblical traditions and they are both holy books which primarily concern themselves with teaching people how to live together in love, harmony and peace. Both books have their elements where they deal with violence and vengeance, but they are only historical references and are by far outweighed by their divinely inspired positive aspects. You want to insist that the Qur'an is some sort of medieval Al-Qaeda how-to-blow-up-Christians manual while the Bible is all sugar and spice and everything nice, and you're just 100% wrong. Argue until you're blue in the face. You'll still be wrong.


viralprospector profile image

viralprospector 8 years ago from DFW Texas

Hal;

Feel free to cuss other people out from now on. You cannot defend your position, but you just want to fight air from behind your computer screen. I will not waste my time here. I actually thought I would find real thought, not more hatred...

Bye, now.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Bye VP! It was great having you around. Have fun! If you run into SirDent, give him a message for me: "You're a mean, ignorant bigot and I'm going to get those insults against Mohammed (PBUH) taken off HubPages if it takes ten years."


Rowda 8 years ago from Dallas, Tx

If VP does read this I dont care what you think and I am probably alot younger than you are. So I dont care if you dont like what I say and trst me Im not a shame to my religion.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Rowda, your age is not a factor. It is clear that you have faith and that is by far the most important aspect.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Hmm...

Google AdSense regulations are very clear that any page which contains: "Violent content, racial intolerance, or advocacy against any individual, group, or organization" cannot display Google Ads as SirDent's URL clearly does.

Hmm...

Would SirDent's hate-dripping diatribe:

"Islam is called by many a "Religion of Peace" but according to their own prophet, it is a religion of war and of genocide. Anyone who doesn't follow their teachings will be killed. They will be terrorized. So much for the religion of peace.... Just imagine the terrorists that would be loosed on the world if Jesus had taught the same things that Muhammad had taught."

...qualify under Google AdSense rules as intolerance and advocacy against a group or organization... Islam?

Hmm...


MrMarmalade profile image

MrMarmalade 8 years ago from Sydney

Missed out on the pistols.

As my mother use to say how about a good old cuppa. Bushells!

No that's wrong you might start discussing the differences of a cup of tea


Mr Shah 8 years ago

Those who insult a religious figure, a figure who is the greatest of human beings, deserve to retract their comments and apolagise, or study without prejudice, for it is not possible to be objective and conclude what the OP (sirdent) concluded. This is because any report which is defaming in nature against the Blessed Prophet (pbuh) is disputable and can be rejected by other certain reports. Anybody can see, just from the language emplyed, that the OP has intent of insult and defamation, and not any intellectual motive. Therefore I appeal to those in charge of these forums to ban such material, and if discourse is to take place, utmost respect must be paid to the Beloved of a sixth of the human population today, as this is the mannerisms of a fruitful discourse.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Mr. Marmalade, would you have taken SirDent's comments more seriously if he had stated that all black people like watermelon, all Mexicans live on beans or all Vietnamese eat dogs? Or gone after whatever racial/creed group you are? The moment that any of us stand still and allow prejudice and blatant discrimination to occur, that is the time that we have set our society on a downward spiral.

Mr. Shah. Thank you for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly. If we can get many other people, whether or not they be Muslim, to post on this page I am 100% confident that we can convince HubPages to delete those slaps in the face to Islam.


Mustafa 8 years ago

Hello,

Do not curse or slander any of the noble messengers of God. Rejecting one of them is the same as rejecting ALL of them. How can you hate someone who spent his whole life asserting that no one deserves to be worshipped except the God of Abraham (Peace on him)?


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Very well said. Please join me in demanding HubPages delete these offensive and erroneous statements. Thanks!


Suhaib Jobst 8 years ago

Let me first preface by saying that I am a former Christian who converted to Islam nearly seven years ago. My purpose will not be to force my Din upon you all -- that is certainly not my place to do so, since "there is no compulsion in the Religion" (Sura al-Baqara, 2:256) -- but rather to address some misconceptions as it regards the character of the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

Let us break down these claims one by one. SirDent begins by calling him "a liar". Apparently he failed to do his research. If he would have done so, he would have known that his nickname was al-Amim (the Trustworthy). Even his worse enemies from the pagan Quraish testified to his trustworthiness. These enemies used all sorts of arguments, but never once did they dispute his honesty.

I would also add that if he was "a liar", what do most liars do? They lie to pump up their egos. Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was actually very humble and the Qur'an refers to many earlier prophets more than it even refers to him. In a hadith, or recorded statement of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), he said that the prophets were brothers to each other and none is better than another. Certainly not the statement of "a liar".

SirDent then calls him "a murderer". The perfect refutation to this is his conquest of Makkah, the city which had just been fighting him and his message for the past two decades. Yet he granted an amnesty to its inhabitants and even the leaders of Quraish, all except for a few leaders who fought him to the end.

Earlier there had been a Jewish woman who tried to poison him, yet he pardoned her. Some of those who had fought him earlier later became his followers, he accepted them with open arms as his brothers in Islam. He did not hold grudges and refrained from retribution, such as when he held true to the terms of the treaty of Hudaybiyya even while the Quraish violated several of its terms. He later pardoned the ones who had earlier killed his beloved uncle Hamza.

SirDent calls him "a pedophile". Pedophiles are those who prey upon children for lewd and lascivious acts. Apparently he failed to recognize that the youngest of his wives was A'isha, all the rest were older widows whom he supported financially and emotionally. A'isha became one of his staunchest followers, later narrating many ahadith (plural form of hadith). This is certainly not the act of one who fell victim to a "pedophile".

SirDent also fails to recognize that age during that time was a far different concept than now, due to our higher life expectancies. To condemn the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) he would have to condemn all early human beings, who married at earlier ages than now. I would like him to consider the example of the Virgin Mary, who was a teenager when she gave birth to Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).

Our detractor then goes on to claim "a thief". Not even his worse enemies during his lifetime accused him of such a deed, since they knew he was Al-Amin. If he was "a thief", why then did the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) live a very humble life? He shied away from wealth and riches. He did not seek after any comforts of this life, rather he was known for his humble means. He would not take so much as a date from the Zakat and Sadaqa, but rather these would be distributed with justice.

Thiefs will accept things when honestly given to them as well, since it is their greed that is the root of the problem. However, the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) expressly refused to accept any charity. The private property of his Companions (Sahaba) were considered inviolable, certainly not the act of one who is allegedly a thief in a position of power, who could easily use this position to steal from his followers. Yet the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was the exact opposite of this.

As for being "a false prophet who should have been killed", this statement definitely speaks for itself. While speaking about the alleged violent teachings of Islam, in true Orwellian fashion SirDent is the one who actually espouses violent tendencies. I think that this statement shows his true nature as one who has some mental imbalances and lives in a fantasy world where the sword solves everything. Now we know where he comes up with all of these claims!


Asmaa 8 years ago

Peace be upon you brother!!

I Agree and pray that the management will soon listen in. Ameen


Suleiman 8 years ago

What prevents you from embracing the message of the final Messenger, Oh christian believer?


Mr. non-contradiction 8 years ago

We can't all be right. Can we? I will readily admit an ignorance of Islamic thought and belief and yet I can completely understand, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me." (the words of Jesus -John 14:6) Either Jesus is telling the truth - or He is lying - or He is insane. If Rowda's faith is "by far the most important aspect" where then is the possibility of being deceived, or do we deny that faith can be misplaced? And if the Prophet Muhammad is the "final messenger" does this make him equal with Jesus, or is Jesus God incarnate, and the Prophet Muhammed not?


Hamza 8 years ago

Thank you Hal Licino for standing up for justice. HubPages must take down this article. Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is the final prophet of God and was preceded with Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him), who was a human and a messenger of God. Those who slander our prophet know well that Muslims cannot reciprocate in the same manner because it is part of our religion to believe in and respect all the prophets. So, such slanderous publications are vile, factually wrong, biased and coward.

I am with Hal and demand that HubPages remove this offensive article.


SirDent 8 years ago

Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you." Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then God cancelled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed: "Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)

SirDent: According to this, Muahammad spoke the words of Satan himself. Muslims the book of Deuteronomy tells of the coming Prophet who is like Moses. They say that Muhammad is the prophet.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. This verse is the one used to point to Muhammad as being the prophet. But there's more. Two verse later it is written

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Now it seems very straightforward. Muhammad spoke words that Satan put in his mouth saying they were from God. He later said that they were not from God but from Satan himself. Read the second verse again and see what is stated about those who prophesy falsely. Of course, Allah can change his mind about things. This would make him imperfect wouldn't it?

The first part I copied from http://www.answeringislam.info/Responses/Saifullah...


miffy 8 years ago

o you idiot SirDent. you've completely misconstrued the interpretation of that verse.

"...but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue. Then [[God cancelled what Satan had thus cast]], and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed..." "...God abrogates what Satan casts..."

do you know what abrogate means? It means to cancel or annul or to nullify. Satan's attempt to cast words on Mohammad's (peace & blessings be upon him) recitation had no effect - other than to merely illustrate, as a human, Mohammad (pbuh) was not infallible. Subject to the same attacks that Satan subjects to us all (which included Jesus (pbuh) btw...)

And Allah changing His mind on something does not make Him imperfect. That statement alone shows you have no idea was God almighty is capable of.


Mr. non-contradiction 8 years ago

Since nobody responded to my last post, let me try another approach. The Jewish/Christian Scriptures say, "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God;and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 John 4:7-10)

This is clearly a passage which everybody on this hub needs to understand. Love is the fruit of knowing God, quarres and strife are the fruits of not knowing Him. Therefore, it is in the spirit of love that i ask these questions of my Islamic friends; Do the followers of the Prophet Muhammed sin? If so, how are they atoned for (propitiated)? The Judeo/Christian doctrine is as previously stated - Christ died for our sins, taking upon Himself our punishment and crediting to our account His righteousness. What is a muslim to do with their sins?


Cailin Gallagher profile image

Cailin Gallagher 8 years ago from New England

Please help me understand what I read at Barnes and Noble. I was looking through the clearance books and found three workbooks for Muslim Religious Education for young children...probably kindergarten through 2nd grade. I looked through them as I am interested in all religions. I couldn't believe what I read. Why are these children taught that the infidels (all non-Mulsims) are non-human? I know that the Bible and the Qur'ran can be interepreted in many ways, but what about our modern interpretation and teaching for our young children? Christians have had to change with the times, and the mainstream Christian does not interepret the Bible as though we were in the Middle Ages. Our cultures and civilizations will indeed clash, as Samuel Huntington stated in his 1996 book, unless we can get beyond our hatred. I'm discouraged and dismayed. Please advise.


Chef Jeff profile image

Chef Jeff 8 years ago from Universe, Milky Way, Outer Arm, Sol, Earth, Western Hemisphere, North America, Illinois, Chicago.

Unfortunately religion has been used as a tool of hatred from one group to another. I know very little about Islam, or about many other relgions for that matter. I have been raised in a mostly Christian nation, and yet I have been witness to the vast differences between the two major factions of Christianity in the U.S., namely, Catholoism abd Protestantism.

How much difference is there between those who follow the Old Testament (OT)values and those who favor the New Testament (NT) ideas? There are certainly many calls for doing harm to other people in the OT, and even some in the NT. And along that line, we, as Christians, can't even agree on which of the several translations of the Bible should be correct.

Catholics and Protestants have different versions of the Bible, and there are many books that have not been included, for various reasons, in either or both of these Bibles.

Neither Christiantiy nor Islam can claim to be free of the blood of innocents. Still, those who practice a radical form of any religion usually interprest their doctrines in a most narrow and ugly manner. I amcertain that Usama bin laden and his followers are not practicing main-stream Islam, just as the people who brought us the Inquisition were not following the true path of Jesus.

Too many have died in the name of God for any of us to claim any moral high-ground. Believe what you wish to believe and leave others to interpret how they wish to worship, or how & why they decide not to worship.


m@ 8 years ago

Do a search for "moon god" AND allah.

allah is a pegan moon god.

end of debate.


Hexxor 8 years ago

There are great misconceptions in the matter regarding Islam. Some people refer to some terrorists who claim to be muslims as "Islamic terrorists". Islam by itself is not compatible with terrorism.

Those who murder indiscriminately and suicide are a kind of people who will enter hell. A typical example is someone who enter a bus full with people and kill them all through an explosive suicide device.

A muslim is someone who has submitted him/herself to God alone. The unbelievers who call themselves "muslims" can be recognized by their speech, its full of anger, with blood and fire all this come from their bellies.

The authority of Islam is derived from the book of the Coran. The Hadith cannot be regarded as Islam because it is made out of hearsaying. And whomever takes for him/her a religion of hearsaying is doomed for failure.

The famous Sura(verse) number nine within the Coran is also another source that unbelievers use for justifying their violence. All of the Suras begin with the following "In the name of Allah, the benevolent, the merciful" except sura number nine. This very beginning is the basefor accepting the Sura as authorized by God.

Thus Sura number nine in full cannot be accepted. Then why did God accepted that this sura be included in the Coran? - a trial for people! God is ever triyng humans.

In todays Pakistan there are certain Terrorists School "madrassas" that train people and make them into Talebans. These schools are the creation of the Secret Services of intelligence of pakistan, they created that on behalf on USA when the soviets were in power in Afghanistan.

We all know how evil and backward the Talebans are, a creation of evil in the face of this world. By using the Hadith and Chapter nine in conjunction one can create the most violent kind of unbelievers. By the way did you know that the suicide terrorrists think they will be married with 72 beutiful women in paradise? - ha! what a dissapointment for them when on resurrection day they will be doomed to hell.

Why? because in Islam Suicide gives hell as recompense AND muslims are forced to obey the law of retribution. Thus is you are struck, strike back with the same force as you were struck, an equal damage for an equal damage.

Indiscriminate murder is not the same as "one life for a life".


Rowda 8 years ago from Dallas, Tx

this is to M@:

Allah Is just how you say god in the arabic language.

Just like how ruho is how you say red in spanish.

So please go do your research.


Cailin Gallagher profile image

Cailin Gallagher 8 years ago from New England

Hexxor: Thank you. Your explanation was thoughtful and enlightening. I understand now of the different interpretations, and the mainstream Mulslims compared to the "unbeliever" Muslims.


Cailin Gallagher profile image

Cailin Gallagher 8 years ago from New England

I checked out the moon god info...also the refute of the theory...interesting, but further research is needed in order to confirm or deny this theory.


jcorkern profile image

jcorkern 8 years ago from Wonderland

The facts are that the two books are very similar. For every verse in the Bible, you can find a similar verse in the Islamic holy book. any verse can be taken out of context, mis-interpreted because of a lack of study, knowledge of the customs and culture at the time of the writings and many other reasons.

SirDent, It is obvious that it was an uneducated attack. I am a christian, and I contend for the christian faith, but if you believe the Bible to be superior, you should abide in the words of it. A tree is known by it's fruit, and yours has fallen off of the tree, rolled down the hill and rotted.

Jesus only attacked the Jews that wanted to be hypocrits, not other pagan religions, so if you believe Islam to be a pagan religion, you should go read up some more and try to be more christlike and try winning people instead of insulting.

There is a difference between debate and attack, and you as a tree have exposed yourself as a fake christian. You need to return to your first love, if HE ever was your first love, before you are spewed out of his mouth.


Prophecy Teacher profile image

Prophecy Teacher 8 years ago from Dallas Texas

The root of the discussion really lies here. Islam as it's practiced by the mainstream is not violent. However, Islam as it was practiced in the first three centuries - which followed the Quran exactly - was. Of that, there can be no doubt.

I think the misjudgment here was to have painted Islam in a broad stroke as it applies to today.

Never the less, Islam is being practiced by Islamists and radicals as if it were the days immediately after Mohamed. They even quote the verses above as their primary texts and justification. They have history as their proof that it was originally practiced that way. Otherwise - they must simply be "Misinterpreting" the verses like so many here say that Mr Dint is.

But the problem with that illogic is that the Islamists aren't just making this stuff up - they have proof. It's in the Quran and it's in their history. They are not hijacking a peaceful religion at all. They are hijacking a religion that has turned peaceful. They in effect are attempting to return it to it's original methods and roots. The so-called peacefulness of modern Islam came about over a period of many centuries. The Islamists are concerned about this historical drift. Their writings are full of condemnation for the adherents practicing it peacefully. They in turn believe that the Islam of modern peace - has itself been hijacked by the Islam "is peace" crowd.

I don't see anyone here writing the Islamist message boards and demanding them to stop insulting the prophet - or scathing them to remove their radical Islamist rhetoric on pain of being reported to the peace police. Certainly not with their real name and address. Go figure.

Islam is submission - not peace. And if the fundamentalists have their way - they intend to slaughter everyone into a peaceful submission. Nothing could be clearer. They truly are following Mohamed.

In the West we are uncertain as to what truth is; in fact, it's almost impossible for modern America to know. If truth is at the discretion of the individual then no truth really exists. For one to say that Islam is peace is the same as an Islamist fundamentalist saying that Islam is Jihad. (or the relativist that says we are all wrong and we're all right. So in their mind we must wait until the day of submission comes and then we'll see who's right.)

Who's right is learned through discussion. Who's wrong is learned through war. I would much rather discuss the issue incorrectly than not at all. Otherwise, if we follow the advice of the reactionists above - we can't condemn Islamists either. You have already decided what's right by not allowing discussion - no matter how misguided.

And that discussionists is a cunundrum mental gymnastics can not circumnavigate.


Sylvia 8 years ago

Chef Jeff, how true! Finally, religion has got to be not about differences, not about similarities, but about Me and my God! And maybe it's time that we asked if we are living the life that will get us home :)

Will I be there? When the veil between Earth and Heaven is rent asunderWill I be there?When it’s Judgement Day I really wonderWill I be there? There’ll be no he, no she, no otherJust I, me and my CreatorWill I have done what He expectedWould I have loved like He demonstrated?Not just my sister and my brotherBut my neighbour and all others When He calls to his children to follow Him homeWill I be there?To sing Hallelujah around His heavenly throneWill I be there? If I can’t sing of love when I’m down hereHow can I if I get up there?Shouldn’t I practice for eternityShouldn’t love be what is guiding me?With hatred spewing out of meWill I be there?


Prophecy Teacher profile image

Prophecy Teacher 8 years ago from Dallas Texas

Furthermore, above is a nice list of Bible verses standing alone as if they are equivalent to Quranic verses standing alone. If this were so - equal - then we would expect to see some 10 odd million radical slaughtering Christians - and from them - demanding that peaceful Christians and infidel Muslims submit to Christ or die. Peacefully of course. Apart from 2 or 3 abortion clinics and a few misguided posts in forums - I don't see the roots of a mass movement happening.


Brainy 8 years ago

This is such a ludicrous piece of non-sense.

SirDent and Prophecy Teacher, if you want to critique a religion, at least have the decency to quote verses from their OWN sources. Instead of quoting from nonsensical websites which publish outright fabrications.

Better yet, learn Islam from knowledgeable and practicing Muslims before you set to criticize it.

The internets is not the place to talk some thing as sensitive and deep as religion. Its like saying "I've learnt brain surgery" through Google.

You can like or hate Islam, just make sure you do it based on facts and not fiction. Whats the fiction? Good question. Take all your bigotry to a Muslim who knows Islam and ask him to dissect your ramblings one by one. Or in the very least join a Muslim forum online and ask the Muslims on there. In a forum like the hubpages where theres opinions flying from all corners, its very easy to lose the truth.

Cailin Gallagher, care to quote the name and author of the book you read? regarding disbelievers being non-humans. Thats simply not the Islamic position, and this is an "orthodox" Muslim telling you this.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

Suhaib Jobst: Thank you for your eloquent and well written, step-by-step and very rightful defense of the Prophet. There is no doubt whatsoever that SirDent is hiding behind the name of his "supposed religion" which like Islam teaches peace and love by fanning the flames of hatred.

Asmaa: Let us pray that if we can be joined on this page by other people of good will, HubPages will be forced to see the light and forever eliminate the insults to Islam on SirDent's page.

Suleiman: I have embraced his message, brother. However, I have also found much of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and the other major religions to have strong messages and great lessons. The path to my personal salvation is found on all of them and I respect all of them equally.

Mr. Non-Contradiction: I see no problem with Mohammed (PBUH) being the final messenger of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic branch of theology. In a chronological standpoint he was the last great messenger, coming to this world nearly six centuries after Jesus, and respecting Jesus' work and teachings. As for Muslim sin, it is essentially the same covenant with God as Judeo-Christians: Allah does not tolerate sin and tosses sinners into the fires of hell, but he also demonstrates his divine mercy when a sinner honestly asks for forgiveness.

Hamza: Thank you for agreeing with me as to the extent of SirDent's cowardly and vicious words and that HubPages must take them down.

SirDent: Several wise people have posted facts after your post which show how, instead of repenting, apologizing and deleting your insults, you continue to state falsehoods and slander against many hundreds of millions of good people. I agree with them wholeheartedly. There have been entire theses written by learned scholars as to how the references in Deuteronomy 18 refer to Jesus, not Mohammed (PBUH). And, of course, you have shown your desperation to defend your undefendable position by dragging out the tired old "Satanic Verses" debate and just like your wealthier but just as cowardly brother-in-arms Salman Rushdie. As was the case when Rushdie selfishly and egotistically offended Islam just so he could make millions and marry a supermodel, you are flailing around the same feeble sword. However, SirDent, I can assure you that millions of dollars and supermodels are not coming your way, but the disgust of Muslims everywhere at your horrific actions is. I can refer you to literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of the rightful interpretation of these verses written by respected Islamic scholars which debunk Rushdie, and each and ever word in these treatises applies to your "copy and paste" Islamophobia.

Miffy: Abrogate is a polysyllabic word which I trust evades SirDent's cerebral capacities.

Cailin Gallagher: You've got to be kidding. With fundamentalist Christians engaging in wholesale book burnings and managing to get any text which in the tiniest manner imaginable contradicts their narrow and myopic view of the world taken off the shelves, you bring into the discussion some workbooks published by some private company with some strange agenda? Even if we are to accept your characterization of it, how many billions of pages of Christian hate literature do you have to be buried in before you understand that anyone with a few hundred dollars can publish a POD book and write whatever they want in it and it does not reflect anyone's viewpoint but their own? (Oops... I sure hope I haven't given SirDent any ideas...) And fer cryin' out loud... gimme a break on the Moon God thing. Sheesh...

Chef Jeff: "Believe what you wish to believe" is a very good statement, as is "we, as Christians, can't even agree on which of the several translations of the Bible should be correct." It is not my place or anyone else's to determine what another person believes, but at the same time, I should also respect that belief in a major religion if it is shared by countless millions of good people. That is the lesson that SirDent must learn and the main onus as to why I am so adamant that HubPages remove those filthy and hateful words from his site.

m@: The only end of debate is that you must be a graduate of the SirDent Theological Academy. Both of you make no sense whatsoever.

Hexxor: "Islam by itself is not compatible with terrorism." Hear, hear! Just like Cailin Gallagher's publisher, terrorists claim that they are motivated by religion when they spread their evil. Yet, this society has accepted "Islamic Terrorist" as a catch-phrase... has anyone ever heard of Timothy McVeigh being referred to as a "Catholic Terrorist" even though, essentially, he was?

Rowda: Don't waste your breath on m@. He's clearly an 11 year-old or at least has the mentality of one.

Jcorkern: I agree. I truly do wonder if SirDent is a true Christian or just one that is hijacking the name of Christianity to attempt to defend his hatred and xenophobia.

Prophecy Teacher: I haven't gone onto these Islamic sites to see what they are saying but my statistics report for this page shows that many readers have come from: forums.islamicawakening.com, ummah.com, muslimvillage.com, aimislam.com, sunniforum.com, islamonline.net, somaliways.com, forumofislam.com and idawah.com. So there must be some people of good will who are informing the readers of those sites to come to this page and show their indignation against SirDent's lies. Then PUH-LEEEEZ spare me the hypocritical statement that the first three centuries of Islam were violent. How many hundreds of millions of people have been tortured and slaughtered in the name of Christianity? Do little things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the many centuries of prosecution and murder of Jews, First Nation Americans, Colonial Natives, ad nauseum ever enter into your thought process? After all, Deuteronomy teaches Christians "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breathest. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..."

Sylvia: I love your poem. I regret that HubPages is paradoxically not set up to show proper line returns. It's been that way since Day One and never been rectified. Thank you for your efforts though!

Brainy: "I've learnt brain surgery through Google" is a fantastic quote. Thank you for that! SirDent and the other mindless internet blabbers actually believe that the junk you find online is reputable, so they dig between the sites claiming that you can cure cancer with apricot pits, you can lose 50 lbs by eating three pizzas a day, and that the Ku Klux Klan is a wonderful organization, to find their little nuggets of nonsense and spew them out as Gospel. If they have ever been in a library, it's probably just to check out a Clymer's Manual to do a top end job on their Honda 50cc MiniTrails.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 8 years ago from Toronto Author

There is no doubt that God Is Great. I have no control over the stories which appear in the News Capsule just below this as they are randomly generated by the keywords of the page, and sure enough, what story is the first one right now?

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Oxford-focuse...


Prophecy Teacher profile image

Prophecy Teacher 8 years ago from Dallas Texas

Hal, no one is comparing the violence of some Christianity to the violence of some Islam - not in my above argument anyway. I compared the violence of the 1st 300 yrs of Islam to the violence we see today - which uses those 300 yrs as their model. Big difference...

The 1st 300 yrs of Christianity were not violent at all - and clearly there are no Christian Fundamental sects attempting to takes us back to our violent roots as practiced in our origins. So your argument is disengenuous to say the least.

Once again, there is no doubt - as I said - that Islam in general today - is peaceful. But it is virtually impossible to deny that Islamists practice 7th century Islam and demand it of both Muslims and infidels.

But it's growing and it's dangerous - surely that's significant. You seem to be debating who left the gate open - but since the horse is out - it doesn't matter.

Christianity is not a state religion. Jesus never made it that way - hated the thought of it - and fought it His entire ministry. Being a former Christian, I'm sure you remember that from Sunday school. Those barbaric religous states were wrong and Jesus would say they were too - unless He was kidding. Christianity as taught by Jesus doesn't support state religion - but Islam as taught by Mohamed does. But of course you understand this - having converted and read the Koran.

Islam IS the state - the religion can not legally be separated from the state. The Islamists are correct; they quote the Koran accurately and are merely attempting to return the watered down peaceful Islam to it's - state religion - context - as lived throughout it's entire history until the late 19th century.

But Christianity is far from the state if followed as taught by Jesus. We as Christians are not of this world, render unto Ceaser what is his and the Lord his, and as best as is in us - being at peace with all men. Now whether it is practiced that way is beside the point. It is taught that way. That is a far cry from how Islam in it's original context was taught, lived and grew - exactly like the Islamist want to return too.

If you can not see the difference......and there is a striking dfference .....then show me more peace and I will endure it.


jcorkern profile image

jcorkern 8 years ago from Wonderland

Prophecy Teacher , unlike SirDent . I do believe that you are a true christian, and your debate is right on target with this. I can not defend the teachings of Islam because I do not believe they have the truth. Islam has had a very violent tradition and history and as you stated, the events seem to be becoming more frequent.

Like I stated above, there are very similar verses in the Bible and the Islamic version with slight differences. But changing one word or just slightly turning them can change the whole of the teaching.

Just as you stated about it being the difference between a "State" religion and a "spiritual" religion. It does not take much to change things, or a meaning. I know that in the first book of the Bible, God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the forbidden tree that "Thou shalt surely die" The Devil added one word to decieve Eve, and that word was "Not" and it was used like this "Thou shalt not surely die". Both are similar yet they have a whole new teaching.

I believe that this is what is happened in Islam as a whole. Find a verse in the quran, and I can find a very similar verse in the Bible. And it is obvious that the Bible was cannonized prior to Muhammed writing the Quran.

I am sorry that so called christians attack the people of Islam instead of teaching them these things, but it is obvious to me that Muhammed has a "Not" in his writings. Just my opinion.


carhound profile image

carhound 8 years ago from NC

This makes one think about the origin of their faith. However, it is kind of scary when a religion forbids their followers to question their faith or writings - and to do it with so much violence. Doesn't really seem much like a religion. Supposedly many of us are worshipping one God and that God ahs always wanted us to have free will and choice. So why can't the followers of some religions accept that?


Rowda 8 years ago from Dallas, Tx

Can you please look up the word faith. faith is when you trust something or someone without a doubt. When you have true faith in something you never need to question it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith


jcorkern profile image

jcorkern 8 years ago from Wonderland

There are many verses in the Bible where there is promises that there is a reward for the faith. Even the definition of faith promises rewards in the Bible. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things yet seen"

If you are hungry, and pray for food, and then get it, it is an answer of faith, and the evidence of it. I know this is a basic example, but there is even once in the Bible where God tells us to "TEST HIM".

But the test is based on faith, and it is brilliant.


Chef Jeff profile image

Chef Jeff 8 years ago from Universe, Milky Way, Outer Arm, Sol, Earth, Western Hemisphere, North America, Illinois, Chicago.

Rowda, that is a very good interpreatation of what faith is.  Faith is belief, even if you can't always prove that it exists.  I believe God exists but I have no way of proving it so that everyone also believes.  Perhaps that is why we have so many ideas about which faith leads to God.

I truly believe that followers of each of the major & minor religions believe strongly and without doubt in their own faith.  That is the reason I do not try to judge any faith based upon my own poor understanding of any faith but my own.

I have known people with beliefs and faith different than my own and each of them is sincere in her or his own faith.  We love to tell each other about why we believe and how we came to have faith.  In the end we find more similarities than differences, especially when dogma is set aside and the core reasons for having faith are discussed.


Silkworm 8 years ago

I personally beleive in freedom of speech, but passsing such remarks and cursing and slarngering Prophet Mohammad pbuh is a heinous crime and deserved to be punished. But if your morality is so down that you would not mind raping your own mother, I think you need to go to a rehab man.

If you are Jewish or Christian, you must think about why Moslems are not cursing or slandering Prophet Jesus Christ pbuh or Prophet Moses pbuh in return. Because they both are also reverred by Moslems. Have a good one and be good.


cemukay 7 years ago

hadiths;

muHAMmad ordered the murder of people who merely criticised him,

he ordered the stoning to death of a woman, who had a child out of wedlock,

he raped 17yo. Safiyya after torturing her husband to death, his men killed 600+ unarmed boys & men, then raped their women that night.

muzlims are taught 'Disneyland' versions of these and other stories,

he was an evil man.

he just wanted to join all the arab tribes under one banner, against the Jews

he made up izlam to achieve this.


Hal Licino profile image

Hal Licino 7 years ago from Toronto Author

cemukay, I'm not going to "go off" on you. I am simply stating that you should educate yourself as to the pure and beautiful truths of Islam. Muhammad (PBUH) lived in a completely different time than our own and, like Jesus, applied a very different set of social ethics to his actions. If you cannot separate the historical actions of Muhammad (PBUH), Jesus, Siddhartha Gautama and others, against their philosophies and beliefs, then you cannot ever understand any true religion.

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